The Barrow Cache, with speculation on the Reason for the WK sending

[Alfirin]

The previous thread (on the wights) has led me to think

I wonder if beyond the reasons mentioned there might have been another reason why the WK sent the wights to occupy the barrows. As we find out later, the barrow blades given how they were made and forged are uniquely powerful against the hosts of Mordor unlike most weapons Barrow blades can hurt the WK, a trait that given his boast of being unhinderable (which I interpet as meant not just unkillable, but also unwoundable). Given that fact that the WK had fought the Cardolan is is possible he knew just how effective thier weaponry was against him and his wraith Bretheren. I wonder if beyond their obvios function of blocking the way and increasing the general amount of terror in the area, the wights had another function namely to guard the barrows and make sure that no one did what Tom eventually in his own way, did, exume the weapons and pass them to people in a postion to use them. We know how effective the knives of the barrow are, we can only imagine what other anti-Nazgul tech lay down there (this specualtion may not be as idle as it first sounds, since I have always belived that, if Tolkien HAD written the LOTR sequel, the question of the barrow weapons might have been of supreme importance, since in the absence of the eleven rings and the Wise who wielded them, weponry like the Barrow Blades might have represented the strongest anti Mordor stuff there was .

[Inziladun]

It's an interesting idea. I think my main argument against the wights being armoury guards was the fact that the barrows were not primarily armouries. Certainly some weapons were left there as part of burial rituals, and maybe some had been deliberately hidden there by the Dúnedain of Cardolan when they were hiding out in the area. However, would burial places be a likely location to hoard a large number of weapons? Surely there were other stores of them in other places such as Fornost. Would the mere potential of depriving the Dúnedain of a few dozen, or even a few hundred daggers and swords, have been a driving force in the WK's thinking when he sent the wights?

[Alfirin]

That's a good point, Izaldun. The main counter I can give is that when I came up with the idea I was assuming that the WK woud be thinking along the lines of removing the chance of ANY Cardohan weaponry getting around ever, if there was none than he was for all intents and purposes completely invulnerable (as fare as he knew). Fornost indeed may have (and probably did have) had a bigger weapons cache but that may have been depleted during the actual battles and once the WK actually did overrun Fornost any "anti-modor weapons" would likey have been rounded up and destroyed. I would also point out that the fact that Fornost had a larger weapons cache in toto doesnt neccary mean that it had a lot more of the "special weapons". We have no idea just how common such weapons were, if every weapon Cardohannese smiths froged was equally effective or whethere they were rare things reserved for great warriors and cheifs. If they were is is possible that as most of the barrows (especially the later ones) were for people of high rank and honor princes and nobles of Cardohan they might have had an unusally high quantity of the weapons.
I never meant to say that the weapons were the ONLY reason the WK sent the wights, just they may have been ONE, and also may eplain why he LEFT them there rather than say recall them when he had finally overrun Fornost and Arnor had fallen (if he had the power to send them out he probably had the power to call them back)
I also wanted to point out that, much as we do not know the extent of the weapons cache of the Barrows we also don't know the spirit summoing power of the WK. The "more important things" argument really only holds if we assume that the WK had few enough wights at his disposal to make the force he sent to the downs of some siginficance. For all we know, it could be that the WK could, if he needed, summon up thousands upon thousands of such spirits under his command; expending the handful he sent to the Downs to watch over a handful of weapons might have been of utterly no cosequence to him.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

The main counter I can give is that when I came up with the idea I was assuming that the WK woud be thinking along the lines of removing the chance of ANY Cardolan weaponry getting around ever, if there was none than he was for all intents and purposes completely invulnerable (as far as he knew).

Yes, I would have said that if the WK knew that there were dangerous weapons in the Barrows then he should have ordered someone to clean out all weapons from the Barrows long before.

Even during the time of the War of the Ring there could have been agents allied to Sauron who could have done it, surely, just in case the WK had forgotten about the danger in the meantime.

Or even better, why not just send one of the Nazgul to guard the Barrows?

[Pitchwife]

Or even better, why not just send one of the Nazgul to guard the Barrows?
That would be like sending James Bond to guard a bank safe - a waste of their abilities.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

That would be like sending James Bond to guard a bank safe - a waste of their abilities.

The same could be said about sending all of the the Nine to look for "Baggins". A bit like sending nine James Bonds to do the work of one average spy.

[Alfirin]

Yes, I would have said that if the WK knew that there were dangerous weapons in the Barrows then he should have ordered someone to clean out all weapons from the Barrows long before.

Even during the time of the War of the Ring there could have been agents allied to Sauron who could have done it, surely, just in case the WK had forgotten about the danger in the meantime.

Or even better, why not just send one of the Nazgul to guard the Barrows?

I've thought about that two and I did come up with a possilbe answer for that as well, but it is really really tenous and requires a few rather extreme assumptions, the main one being that while all of the Nazgul were completely enslaved to thier rings and (by extension Saurons will) they have not lost thier free will utterly that is they are not mere automotons, and when Sauron is not giving them specific orders they are allowed to use thier own methods, provided these do not contravene Saurons will or aims.
If one assumes that (and I admit it is assuming quite a lot) thene questions arise as to how loyal the Nazgul are to each other. We know the WK is the Lord of the Nazgul but whether this is by mutual acclaim by Sauron's pick (most of his titles seem to have come after he took ring, so we dont know if he was already a king or prince before taking it (he was probably already a sorceror of some sort, but that has nothing to do with one's blood) becuse he was the first, or just by being bigger and nastier than the others and being able to keep them all cowed. If they are all jockeying for favor in the eyes of their lord and trying to move up the ranks. If there is dissention in the ranks the WK might actually want a hidden cache of anti-nazgul weaponry just in case someone on thier side gets so out of control he has to be taken down (if the WK is vulnerable to them the other Nazgul and creature of the same ilk (say a morgul knifed individual with an unusally strong will) are probably uniquely suceptable to them) This may be why he might not want to send a fellow Nazgul to watch them he may not want them to know there's still a few of these things lying around (I would imagine that any barrow blades that were in other armories like Fornost's, likey were rounded up and destroyed whne the WK overran the city, as they were fairly public places where a lot of individuals might have had acess to the armory (or could break in).
. Not to mention that a Nazgul is still tecnically alive (as has been drummed into me on this site) and may still have some of basic needs of the living (like eating and sleeping) and the Downs aren't exatly the most fertile area especially for a long term hunker down (remember , if we are talking about guarding, we are taking about a posting that was for the long haul perhaps for centuries) , As for a non-Nazgul "solid" contingent, who could you really trust. We know orcs really aren't neccarily trustworthy at least in the absence of a commanding authority, many might have kept weapons behing the WK's back if for no other reason that they were far better weapons that the strandard issue ones, givne how much they hated the Nazgul if they had known the secret (there would have DEFINITELY been some unreported "swag" Men have the same problem plus if (as someone speculated) the men under the WK command were partially decended from the men of Carn Dum they might have balked at diggin up their kins resting places. The wights which the WK may have summoned hinself (and possibly therefore really did have completely in is own, personal thrall) may have literally been the only forces the WK could trust, to sit on the wepons until time removed the threat (the Downs always sounded pretty wet to me, maybe he was hoping the water would eventually rust the weapons into nothingness.)

There is a second even, more tenuos reason why the WK might have wanted a supply of Barrow weapons. What if they were needed to make other things. What if a Morgul blade (which they say is hard to make) began it life as a ensorceled Barrow blade, one that the WK through hard and dark sorcery twisted the spell on and corrupted to his will. t makes a kind of sense, to wound the WK a barrow blade must (unlike a normal blade) trancend the divide between this side and the "other side" I can easily see such a spell if corrupted become waht the morgul knife does send a person from this side to the other (I have always had a pet theory that the Morgul attack on Frodo was done hastily and was in fact botched, (a bad shot, with the broken blade then lost in the scuffle) that a morgul knife isnt supposed to break off in a non mortal wound, but is in fact, when done correctly meant to admister an instateosly fatal wound, (through the heart say) and cause immediate wrathification with the knife still intact for another use. see new thread) If you've ever seen the somewhat old cartoon Conan the Adventurer think of the barrow blades like star metal, in its natural state is the msot dangerous thing to the bad guys but it can be "corrupted" by them into somthing that is thier greatest asset.

[Inziladun]

We know the WK is the Lord of the Nazgul but whether this is by mutual acclaim by Sauron's pick (most of his titles seem to have come after he took ring, so we dont know if he was already a king or prince before taking it (he was probably already a sorceror of some sort, but that has nothing to do with one's blood) becuse he was the first, or just by being bigger and nastier than the others and being able to keep them all cowed.

The WK was placed in charge by Sauron because he had the most power and command ability. The other Nazgûl would have obeyed his orders without question, since his orders would have been entirely in line with Sauron's wishes. No disunity would be seen in the ranks of the Nazgûl.

A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear. FOTR The Council of Elrond

The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others. Letters (# 210)

(I)t makes a kind of sense, to wound the WK a barrow blade must (unlike a normal blade) trancend the divide between this side and the "other side"

I've never had the idea that the Barrow-blades were the only means of harming the Nazgûl; they simply did more damage due to the nature of the spells placed on them. After all, it wasn't Merry who delivered the death blow to the Morgul-lord; Éowyn did so, with an ordinary sword.

[Alfirin]

I've never had the idea that the Barrow-blades were the only means of harming the Nazgûl; they simply did more damage due to the nature of the spells placed on them. After all, it wasn't Merry who delivered the death blow to the Morgul-lord; Éowyn did so, with an ordinary sword.

This is true but of course, Eowyn circunvented the "invicibility" spell of the WK by not being a "living man". A Barrow blade just might give some advantage particulary if you arent fortunate to be a woman, non-human or dead (actually that's interesting, sinc ethey aren't "living men" I wonder if the Dead Men of Dunharrow had they been there could have also killed the WK). I'm just wondering if a normal man, armed with a normal unenchated sword could cause any real damage. Merry may not have actually struck the fatal blow but it is possible he struck the critical one since a big part of Eowyn being able to slay the WK was the fact that he was mometarily distracted by Merry's strike.

[Juicy-Sweet]

The previous thread (on the wights) has led me to think

I wonder if beyond the reasons mentioned there might have been another reason why the WK sent the wights to occupy the barrows. As we find out later, the barrow blades given how they were made and forged are uniquely powerful against the hosts of Mordor unlike most weapons Barrow blades can hurt the WK, a trait that given his boast of being unhinderable (which I interpet as meant not just unkillable, but also unwoundable). Given that fact that the WK had fought the Cardolan is is possible he knew just how effective thier weaponry was against him and his wraith Bretheren. I wonder if beyond their obvios function of blocking the way and increasing the general amount of terror in the area, the wights had another function namely to guard the barrows and make sure that no one did what Tom eventually in his own way, did, exume the weapons and pass them to people in a postion to use them. We know how effective the knives of the barrow are, we can only imagine what other anti-Nazgul tech lay down there (this specualtion may not be as idle as it first sounds, since I have always belived that, if Tolkien HAD written the LOTR sequel, the question of the barrow weapons might have been of supreme importance, since in the absence of the eleven rings and the Wise who wielded them, weponry like the Barrow Blades might have represented the strongest anti Mordor stuff there was .

I like this idea.

In Unfinished Tales, the WK makes a detour around the barrows "stirring" the wights or something.

I sorta wondered why he botheres with that - in the middle of the ring chase but it makes sense now, seing the witches are guarding the some of best anti-nazgul weaponry. He wen to check if all was well with the wights and to raise their morale. Pat them on the back saying "You know, it's an awfully important job you've done in this barrow for the last couple of thousand years, I really dont know how we would have done it without you. Keep up the good work, and see you in 1000 years."

I think the WK - or anyone - was not be SURE as to what kind of stuff was really in the barrows. Theres a lot of them, and it would take forever to search the all. And theres no inventories.

It makes sense to me he was thinking originally "well ... there MIGHT be some anti-nazgul weapons in the barrows, and there might not. I dont really think so - so I'm not going to bother clearing them all out. But just to make sure, I'll send the wights that I dont have much other use for and guard them. They are the only ones up for the job as well, seing that a) they dont die, so I can stick a wight in each barrow and it will be safe forever, whereas orcs might die from a plague or whatever 1000 years come b) they are pretty much the only servants that can be trusted with guarding gold and such without superveilance. One day when the territory is under my control again - and it has to be - I'll come and clear them all." But he never controlled the territory.

The good side on its side would be thinking (I'm guessing that only the high-power people, Gandalf, Elrond etc would be able to clear out a wight, and that it was pretty difficult even for them. Tom Bombadil is in a league of his own, so his performance doesnt count.) - "Well, there MIGHT be a barrow blade or two in there - we don't know. But it would be awfully taxing to clear all the 393 barrows and fight a wight 393 times - and then probably just end up with golden brooches and useless stuff. It's not worth the bother. And hey, I'm a grand hero. It's just not fitting for me to camp in the barrows for years doing the tedious and repetitive task of clearing our barrow after barrow after barrow..."

I dont think Elrond or Gandalf likes doing the exact same thing 393 times in a row.

[Alfirin]

The good side on its side would be thinking (I'm guessing that only the high-power people, Gandalf, Elrond etc would be able to clear out a wight, and that it was pretty difficult even for them. Tom Bombadil is in a league of his own, so his performance doesnt count.) - "Well, there MIGHT be a barrow blade or two in there - we don't know. But it would be awfully taxing to clear all the 393 barrows and fight a wight 393 times - and then probably just end up with golden brooches and useless stuff. It's not worth the bother. And hey, I'm a grand hero. It's just not fitting for me to camp in the barrows for years doing the tedious and repetitive task of clearing our barrow after barrow after barrow..."

I dont think Elrond or Gandalf likes doing the exact same thing 393 times in a row.

Actually, that might not be the case. Killing a Barrow-Wight is actually quite easy, provided you know it is there. A wight is deadly when you are in its barrow and under it's spell. However they do have one huge weakness, daylight. Daylight hits them, they dissolve into mist (this is basically what Tom did when he broke open the Barrows, he let the light in and killed the wight in each barrow he opened. The Hobbits got in trouble in no small parts because they were hobbits; untrained, unaware of the nature of the danger, and still not experienced enough to take appropriate care. In contrast a group of individuals who went there KNOWING was was wating for them might have a very different story. They could wait for a sunny day (the wights may have trouble calling up the fog if condtions aren't already inclined to be misty. Or if they are elves, who are good at seeing by very little light, fog may not impair them as much as hobbits) Instead of trying to enter each barrow and deal with the wight mano-a-mano you simply dig in from the top and let the light in, the light hits the wight dissolves and the barrows contents are free for the taking. Dealing with 393 wights one on one would indeed take years, having a small group chop holes in the top of each one, would only take a few weeks, possibly only a few days, depending on how fast you can dig (Tom did one in a few hours singlehandedly)
I think the real reason the good guys never did it is it never ocurred to them. As you intimated they might not have considered the possilbity of there possibly being a few weapons in the barrows worth the effort. This would go doubly for the elves, who might consider the weapons of little significance (they are not men (nor, technically is Gandalf) and so might not fall under the WK's purview, and hence need no "extra edge").
I still think it likey that the rest of the Barrows were eventually exumed, probably by former Rangers under Now crowned Aragorn's orders as part of some sort of "make sure that, should we get into a situation similar to what we have just gone through, we have every advantage on our side" plan (similar to my "someone must have had to take care of Shelob before hunger drove her out of the pass" problem) in the post war it may actually have been a no danger job, the wights may have all dissapeared anyway (if the nazgul all dropped dead when there was no more master ring/sauron to keep them going, then it is possible that, when the WK died, the wights, being his summonings also were unable to mantain existence on this plane and dissapeared. By the time Aragorn ascends the throne, the barrows may already be wight free.)
One final note, I'm not sure the brooches would neccecarily be all that useless. A culture who could weave spells into thier blades that would make them extra effective agaisnt Nazgul might have a few tricks they could work into cloak holds and things like that. Maybe a spell that provided protection against a wraiths ability to inspire fear.

[Juicy-Sweet]

Actually, that might not be the case. Killing a Barrow-Wight is actually quite easy, provided you know it is there. A wight is deadly when you are in its barrow and under it's spell. However they do have one huge weakness, daylight. Daylight hits them, they dissolve into mist (this is basically what Tom did when he broke open the Barrows, he let the light in and killed the wight in each barrow he opened. The Hobbits got in trouble in no small parts because they were hobbits; untrained, unaware of the nature of the danger, and still not experienced enough to take appropriate care. In contrast a group of individuals who went there KNOWING was was wating for them might have a very different story. They could wait for a sunny day (the wights may have trouble calling up the fog if condtions aren't already inclined to be misty. Or if they are elves, who are good at seeing by very little light, fog may not impair them as much as hobbits) Instead of trying to enter each barrow and deal with the wight mano-a-mano you simply dig in from the top and let the light in, the light hits the wight dissolves and the barrows contents are free for the taking. Dealing with 393 wights one on one would indeed take years, having a small group chop holes in the top of each one, would only take a few weeks, possibly only a few days, depending on how fast you can dig (Tom did one in a few hours singlehandedly) .

I'm not convinced they are "easy". Not sure if theres any mention in LOTR or elsewhere about the strength of a barrow wight. I've got no idea how the wight defends itself - but I think if it was as easy as digging a whole on a sunny day, they would have been empty long ago. The book gives me no clear idea at all of what they can and cant do. I don't think normal people can open a barrow with a wight inside. I think they would use the sleep spell on anyone trying to dig and then kill them in the night. Or use the LOST iN THE FOG spell to make them loose their way.

I dont know this ... just deduce from the fact that everyone left them alone for centuries that they are quite dangerous.

If say a dwarf could kill one, they would have for sure, for the gold.

I like your thinking though :) I guess both options are possible that

a) they are so strong that only the really big good guys can kill them, but its two low priority for them
b) anyone with a shovel can kill them, but nobody knows so people leave them alone

I still think it likey that the rest of the Barrows were eventually exumed, probably by former Rangers under Now crowned Aragorn's orders as part of some sort of "make sure that, should we get into a situation similar to what we have just gone through, we have every advantage on our side" That makes sense... also for Shelob, since ex-Mordor would become the New Gondor. And when Cirith Ungol got transformed into a historic tourist attraction, they would want to remove Shelob. Who they probably put in Minas Ithil Zoo :)

One final note, I'm not sure the brooches would neccecarily be all that useless. A culture who could weave spells into thier blades that would make them extra effective agaisnt Nazgul might have a few tricks they could work into cloak holds and things like that. Maybe a spell that provided protection against a wraiths ability to inspire fear Yeah, there must be all sorts of stuff in those barrows.

[Alfirin]

I'm not convinced they are "easy". Not sure if theres any mention in LOTR or elsewhere about the strength of a barrow wight. I've got no idea how the wight defends itself - but I think if it was as easy as digging a whole on a sunny day, they would have been empty long ago. The book gives me no clear idea at all of what they can and cant do. I don't think normal people can open a barrow with a wight inside. I think they would use the sleep spell on anyone trying to dig and then kill them in the night. Or use the LOST iN THE FOG spell to make them loose their way.

I dont know this ... just deduce from the fact that everyone left them alone for centuries that they are quite dangerous.

If say a dwarf could kill one, they would have for sure, for the gold.

I like your thinking though :) I guess both options are possible that

a) they are so strong that only the really big good guys can kill them, but its two low priority for them
b) anyone with a shovel can kill them, but nobody knows so people leave them alone

That makes sense... also for Shelob, since ex-Mordor would become the New Gondor. And when Cirith Ungol got transformed into a historic tourist attraction, they would want to remove Shelob. Who they probably put in Minas Ithil Zoo :)

Yeah, there must be all sorts of stuff in those barrows.

Well, the whole AREA was sort of left alone for centuries, The WK's occupation had sort of "blighted" the whole region, and no one seems to have been eager to go wandering around there even after he had vacated it. There is also the matter of Tom Himself; since he is a force unto himself (read non aligned) he is a sort of indeterminate variable, and the downs are in HIS realm. He took a liking to the Hobbits, and seems to be close to Gandalf, but that doesn't mean that any person who wanders in will be so welcome. As for dwarves, how would they even know of it? It was a battle involving men and elves, a long long way from any of thier settlements. The Dwaven people love gold, but it's not like they they spend their time trapising around ME digging up every place there might be treasure (if they did they'd have known about the Troll's cache ages ago).
Yes this is sort of what I imagined for Mordor except instead of "New Gondor" I sort of Imagined it sort of splt in half between Ithillien since that is closer to Mordor in the north of Mordor, and Nurn in the South (though since Ithillien is a fiefdom of Gondor, and Nurn probably became one as well at the end of the War of the Rings (I imagine the Nurnien people were very greatful to thier liberators, and that Gondor would want to make sure that that land was close to them (good ports, plus he who control Nurn controls nearly all of Mordor's food supply.) )) You could say that they were sort of New Gondor.) Plus Ithillien had a colony of Mirkwood elves to give them a hand, elves who had shared a forest with giant spiders and so probably were handy at dealing with them (Shelob is a lot bigger than any Mirkwood spider, but at least the elves would have experiance.) But not the Minas Ithil Zoo (it is said explicitly that Minas Ithil/Morgul was never rebuilt, so the zoo would have to be in Emyn Armen.) Not that she'd probably last all that long in bright white light.

[Sarumian]

The same could be said about sending all of the the Nine to look for "Baggins". A bit like sending nine James Bonds to do the work of one average spy.

In that case their true aim was not Baggins but The Ring. We know that Sauron could not trust anyone else in the matter of handling The Ring.