View Full Version : Just how many Elves?

11-04-2001, 07:43 PM
How large was the population of Elves in the start, and to how many was they reduce? smilies/eek.gif

And yes this has surely been debated before somewhere, but what result was reached ??

Og således talte jeg...

Tar Elenion
11-04-2001, 08:32 PM
The population of Elves at their beginning was 144. They did not reduce from there, but rather expanded.

03-17-2002, 06:42 AM
Yes, the only story we have about the first elves tells that there were 144, 72 male, 72 female. Whether this story is canon or not is debated, but it's the only thing we have to go on. Micheal Martinez wrote a nice article on the subject that can be found here: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/54681

Not even he will tell you that his figures are sure to be right, but it's a pretty good estimate I think.

03-17-2002, 12:19 PM
I read that article and was going to post the link, smilies/biggrin.gif its a little confusing on the first read, but well worth reading.

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

Esgalfangiel, Elf-girl
03-17-2002, 12:45 PM
This probably won't mean much if you haven't read the article, but:
Where it's telling the story of the Elves' first awakening, it says:
"In the story, Imin, Tata, and Enel wake up in that order. "
Were these the three Elven-kings that the poem describes? Because although at the time of the setting of the trilogy, the three Elven ring-bearers are Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf, a) Gandalf's not an elf and b) Galadriel's not a King. And nor's Elrond for that matter.
So are Imin, Tata and Enel the three original elven ring-bearers?
Thanks for any replies,

03-17-2002, 12:52 PM
Imin, Tata, and Enel are not the names of elves, they are titles. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel are not the 3 elven lords the article is referring to. The 3 elven rings were forged during the second age, but the elves woke up way before, during the first age. We are never told the names of the first elves that wake up. Michael Martinez has pretty much proven that the 3 elven lords of the Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri (Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe) were at least second generation elves.

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

03-17-2002, 04:11 PM
Gandalf is not one of the 3 elven lords of the poem, Gandalf got his ring from Cirdan, who might have gotten it from Gil-Galad, that is somewhat debatable.

Esgalfangiel, Elf-girl
03-18-2002, 11:32 AM
Thank you! I apologise for the confusion... I'm just about to buy the Silmarillion, so hopefully there'll be no more stupid questions from now on!
"Call myself an elf, don't even know the origins of our rings...!"

03-18-2002, 11:35 AM
There are no stupid questions when you are seriously curious about tolkien! smilies/biggrin.gif

03-18-2002, 12:53 PM
The elves awoke before the First Age began, at the rekindling of the stars. And Imin, Tata, and Enel were the first three elves to awake. Here is the quote:

According to the legend, preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar, the Three Clans were in the beginning derived from the three Elf-fathers: Imin, Tata, and Enel (sc. One, Two, Three), and those whom each chose to join his following.

03-18-2002, 09:16 PM
Glad my name is not Tata! For some reason, every time I read that I fall on the floor laughing! smilies/biggrin.gif
Mhoram, I love your smilies! smilies/wink.gif