Who buries Arwen?

[Lalaith]

After Aragorn dies, Arwen goes to Lorien, lays herself upon Cerin Amroth and dies. We are told that Lorien is now deserted. However, subsequently we are told about Arwen's grave. Who dug it and marked it?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I don't think Tolkien literally meant 'grave', as in she was buried six feet under, but that it was her final resting place/deathbed.

[The Saucepan Man]

Maybe she had handmaidens (perhaps a heriditary role, as she would have outlived the originals) whose last duty to her was to lay her to rest?

[Gorwingel]

Interesting question, I never thought of that, I would think it could be handmadiens, but the story of Arwen's death was so brief that maybe Tolkien never put that much detail into it.

[Lalaith]

I just don't like the idea of the poor woman rotting on a hillside as meat for carrion. And I don't think Tolkien would either. Maybe there were still some Silvan elves around in the area, even though Celeborn had gone.

[DaughterofVana]

I hold with Inderjit Sanghera. Grave = final resting place. I remember the glossaries speaking of a grassy hill that marks her grave... perhaps I'm coming up with that on my own. A grassy hill could form over her body, of course.

Though maybe elves don't rot...?

-'Vana

[Lalaith]

Ah, but she wasn't an elf anymore, was she?

[Eru]

did tinuviel (sp?) become a human? did arwen? me thinks not.they only chosea mortal life, to meet their loved ones outside the circles of the world.

please correct me if i'm wrong.

[greyhavener]

I agree. Arwen didn't stop being an elf, or actually half-elven to be precise. Like all half-elven, she was given a choice between man's ultimate fate or elves'.

[doug*platypus]

My first reaction was that a kind-hearted passerby did it, either digging a grave or raising a cairn (I can't recall which would be more applicable to an elf, probably a cairn). But I now think not. If a cairn or something had been built for her, doubtless this would have been mentioned, maybe even referred to as standing there to this day. Final resting places are often described in detail by Tolkien - Helm, Snowmane, Elendil, Fingolfin, Finduilas.

I think that the lack of a description of Arwen's grave/cairn/howe/barrow/whatever must mean that there was none. She received no burial. I agree with Lalaith that her fate would not be to be devoured by hungry animals (who are only filling their niche in the ecosystem, and shouldn't be unfairly judged!). I think that either the place was so hallowed that no scavenger would come near her for many years afterwards (remember animals have a good sixth sense), or that she disappeared like Saruman, Fëanor or Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Yes, Luthein and Arwen forsook their immortaility, and became human. They passed to beyond the circles of the world. I think I remember reading that Arwen's body went untouched since her death.

[Voronwe]

The tale of Aragorn and Arwen, like the rest of The Lord of the Rings, is presented as part of the Red Book of Westmarch. The end of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen reads thus:
Here ends this tale, as it has come to us from the South; and with the passing of Evenstar no more is said in this book of the days of old.
Consider that someone, at least, must have known of the death of Arwen, otherwise no report of it could have been brought to the Hobbits and been included in the Red Book. Presumeably this person could also have buried Arwen.

[Ultimatejoe]

The hill of Cerin Amroth was hallowed long before Arwen kicked the bucket. Her death may have been inglorious, but I've always been of the impression that she quite literally lay down to sleep, and did. As for whether she became human, the answer is no. She decided to have her spirit judged with men, but her flesh could not be changed by any act short of a direct intervention of Iluvatar. After she died she was judged as mortal and her spirit left the confines of Arda to seek after her hubby.

As for her grave, I've always imagined that she lay there for a time, untouched, and eventually a hill formed over her in the same way a mound formed over the fallen bodies of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears in the Silmarillion.

[Susan Delgado]

It's actually not the body that determines whether one is Elf or Man, it's the fea. Elves' feas are so much stronger than Men's that they prevent the body from aging and sickening. The bodies are the same for Elf and Man, that's how they can produce viable offspring.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

The Elvish hroa is stronger then the Human hroa. It needs to be, to support the stronger Elvish fea. The early Elves could not support their strong fea ,due to the weakness of their hroa, which was said to be like Man's hroa.

[ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Ultimatejoe]

That's right, the Hroa of Elves and Men were definitely different. Part of the distinct difference between the lives of men and elves can be traced to the nature of their fea(r) (how does one put an oumlaut over the E?.) But their bodies were different. Each life in M.E. (for the eruhini at least) was a marriage between fea and hroa unlike any other, and only a body for the elves could sustain their fea.

[ArwenBaggins]

I agree with Joe. The elven bodies did not change. The were just treated as mortals, and Elves no longer.

And,
Joe,
to make the ë like in my name Fëaelenawen, hold down Alt and then type 137 on the number pad. Alt and the numbers should both be held down at the same time. Then you get this: ë

-Fëa

[Ultimatejoe]

▒

Edit: That doesn't look quite right.

ë

There it is...

[ January 23, 2003: Message edited by: Ultimatejoe ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I figure that the Hroa of men was severly weakned after their rebellion. Though, I wonder if the Numenoreans had a hroa equal to early pre-fallen man?

[Ultimatejoe]

Which rebellion are you referring to?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

The first 'rebellion' (I'm sorry I really couldn't think of a better word)or fall, is described in the 'Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth' in Morgoth's Ring HoME 10. In it, men were wooed by Melkor, and Eru said that their Hroa would be weakned so that their Fea would come to him quicker and admit that he was god, not Melkor.

[Eru]

did anyone one else pick up on this, but arwen and aragorn are related?

[Ultimatejoe]

They are seperated by several dozen generations!

[Eru]

so, they are still related. and besides, i didn't say that was a bad thing, a except for they were both descendants of the same person.

[The Saucepan Man]

In it, men were wooed by Melkor, and Eru said that their Hroa would be weakned so that their Fea would come to him quicker and admit that he was god, not Melkor.

To be pedantic, Inderjit:

I just don't like people calling Melkor 'Morgoth' before his 'full' transformation, after the chaining of the Valar. Melkor was a character of far more potency, read 'Myths Transformed' for more details.

Wasn't Melkor Morgoth by the time Men awoke? smilies/wink.gif

[Elven-Maiden]

I always envisioned her disappeared the way Jedi do in Star Wars.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

"Wasn't Melkor Morgoth by the time Men awoke?"

No, not in the Athrabeth, because he could change his shape, and it is proable that in this tale the fall of man was put to a much earlier time, before Melkor's chaining.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

My impression is that Lothlorien was only mostly deserted, not completely, and that the few lingering Galathrim there reported her ultimate demise, and saw to the burial of the body.

[Ultimatejoe]

The language used throughout indicates that Lothlorien is completely abandoned.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Even if it wasn't abandoned (Though I believe it was) the Elves would've faded and have been left impotent, though these Elves would ahve been friendlier then the faded Avari and they problably would not have tried to take anyones body.

[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

In the "Tale of Aragorn and Arwen," RotK, App. A, I(v), it is said that her "green grave" is at Cerin Amroth until the world is changed.

In Appendix B, and I quote: "In the Greenwood the Silvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lórien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people," (emphasis added).

I think this is simply a matter of "putting '2 & 2' together." If you please, folks!

[Ultimatejoe]

There are no dates for that passage.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Dates?

I suppose not; the narrative in Appendix B is not precisely delimited in terms of the exact period to which that description specifically applies.

Still, it is a description of how things generally were in the aftermath of the War of the Rings.

The context and the point of making the statement is to describe the situation in the early part of the Fourth Age.

It would be ridiculous to assume that it became that way instantly. So, at least a few decades went by before most Lórien Elves had either removed to East Lórien (as many may have wanted to do out of sadness for the passing of the Lady and for new challenges and surroundings) or went over the Sea, as many, if not almost all, Lórien Elves were Eldar of Beleriandic or Nandorin origin.

But what would be the point of making such a statement if it described matters for only a few year's time? So, it must have been an accurate description for how things prevailed until the end of what is said about the days of old, or at least the 120-some years into the Fourth Age before Arwen died, which was certainly reported somehow to Barahir Prince of Ithilien and no doubt her children, and that description of relative elvish populations should certainly have been the case for at least a few hundred years, until presumably the last Eldarin ships left Middle-Earth.

[Gryphon Hall]

Funny, I always thought there was some sort of dwelling on Cerin Amroth even before I read that Arwen laid herself down to 'sleep' right there. I don't know if her body is still there (though that would make sense even if she was an elf, I mean, the bodies of dead elves were used by Morgoth and Sauron as battle standards, right?) in some room or buried on the mound itself.

I will check it out once I get my books back. smilies/tongue.gif

[Inderjit Sanghera]

As far as I know, only Celebrimbor's body was used as a battle standard, and that was by Sauron.

[Kalimac]

I've probably forgotten something that was written to the contrary, but what about her children? She went to Lorien alone, but there's no saying that they couldn't have come to her later on; like Aragorn, she probably had a good inkling of when it was that she would die and may even have told them ahead of time, so they could see to her body. It's hard to picture her children just leaving her body to whomever still happened to be in the area at the time.

She may not have wanted anyone with her when she withdrew to die, but that doesn't mean that her children couldn't have come to her after the event. Just a thought.

[celebrial]

I've always felt sad about Arwen's death also, that she dies ("lays herself to rest")alone at Cerin Amroth, choosing to return to the place where she and Aragorn were betrothed, rather than stay with her family and eventually be buried with Aragorn. She says farewell to her children, so perhaps they knew where she was going, especially as the story survived "in the South" (i.e. Gondor) to be recorded and passed down. Tolkien tells us in the Appendix that "there is her green grave," so I take it to be a an actual grave or burial place.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Or maybe her 'grave' was a sacred place, like Elendil's and only her desendants could visit it?

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Arwen vanimelda namárië! he said, and then he drew breath, and returning out of his thought he looked at Frodo and smiled. ...

And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as living man.

Figure it out!

[Meoshi]

I recall in the Silmarrilion that one Elf whose name I cannot remember died, and her body was laid in Lorien(in Aman), undecaying but nevertheless extremely dead. It seems the poetic thing to assume that this happened to Arwen.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

It was Miriel, mother of Feanor.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

And that was in Aman. And Miriel was a true elf dying of extreme weariness.

LoTR says that Arwen has a grave, and one may assume that her physical remains would decay. But one can believe whatever one wants.

[Tony Puckett]

Hey, I'm the newest member! Whoo hoo! Anyways... back to the topic at hand... sorry for the interruption.

[eledhwen]

The story of Miriel is not comparable to that of Arwen at all.
Her soul simply passed to the halls of Mandos, while her body lay in Lorien (the one in Valinor), which is where all elven souls go when they "die", for example when they are slain in battle.
Contrary to humans elven souls are bound within the confines of ME. The human death is actually conceived of as a apecial priviledge, because it means that their souls can transcend the confines of the material world (i.e. ME).

[Ruler of the Frogs]

As stupid as this may sound, what if it was due to some kind of magic? The hill grew over her, or leaves or something. Perhaps the combined magic of Lorien and Arwen (being an Elf still, and close with nature) caused nature to speed up a bit and have the hill/moss/leaves/whatever grow over her.

[Oricon Ancalime]

Yep. That would have been Fëanor's mother- his fëa was basically too strong when he was born, and it killed her.

Ouch.

[Finwe]

Arwen's body could just have decayed, and grass/the hill could have grown "over" her in that way. If a corpse is left outside for long enough, then the ground can indeed grow "over" them.

[Tinuviel of Denton]

Um, I know that you've sort of gotten away from the Arwen/Luthien comparison, but anyway.

Tolkien states somewhere (I think) that Luthien was the only elf whose fëa actually left the world. That was because she actually went directly to Mandos to make him give her back Beren and traded her immortality for another chance for Beren. Arwen wasn't mortal per say, she died in a similar fashion to Miriel, only of grief, rather than weariness.

And if this is completely off, just ignore me.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Yeah, but Miriel was a full elf, and Arwen was half-elven. She and her brothers had the privilege of choice.
As for Miriel's body not decaying, it didn't because Este's maidens tended it.
Says so in Silm smilies/wink.gif

[Morgoth the Great]

i heard that she just plodded(lovely word) off to Lorien and died. bit silly really, if u think about it

[Gryphon Hall]

It seems a bit unfair, doesn't it, if Arwen decays and decomposes, but Aragorn back in Gondor is not.

That doesn't mean that she wouldn't, though.

[Evisse the Blue]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arwen vanimelda namárië! he said, and then he drew breath, and returning out of his thought he looked at Frodo and smiled. ...
And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as living man.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Figure it out!


By pointing out 'living' -are you suggesting that the ghost of Aragorn may have come back to Cerin Amroth to bury Arwen?
Seriously, though, maybe his spirit did come back to ease her final passing. But this is wild and flippant speculation (though it could make a good fan fic topic) smilies/wink.gif
Still, apart from this, something always intrigued me about that linecame there never again as living man. . Of course, it could be just Tolkien's rather pretentious style, but I have the impression that something is being hinted at.

[Finwe]

Well, you never know. Perhaps at Arwen's last moment, the shade of Aragorn appeared by her side, and sort of led her to the Halls of Men (an arbitrary name for the place where Men go when they die). Perhaps Tolkien would have wanted it that way, we'll never know. It's another one of those things that are comparable to the Witch-king "prophecy." On one hand, it could have been a moment of inspiration for Tolkien, or, he could have gotten a kick out of watching all of us sweat over little things like that. You take your pick.

[Evisse the Blue]

On one hand, it could have been a moment of inspiration for Tolkien, or, he could have gotten a kick out of watching all of us sweat over little things like that. You take your pick.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if Tolkien got a chance to post something on this board. smilies/biggrin.gif
But I digress, sorry.