View Full Version : Who knows their trolls?
alashar
08-11-2000, 09:49 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Im not exactly sure how this is supposed to work but I really just want to know the answer to this question, so if anyone can help...
Does anybody know anything about stone/cave/hill/mountain/snow trolls? I just want to know like where they lived, and if they had any notable differences (im making a game and I wanted to put them in). So far, all I know is that they existed during the Third Age...
Im guessing from the names that the main difference is their niche, but really...whats the difference between mountain/cave/stone/hill...seems like thyd all ocupy the same area. It'd just be nice to know the actual place names that these races occupy. Thanks.
</p>
galpsi
08-11-2000, 02:29 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Of all the people in ME, Saruman was likeliest to hve been able to have answered this question. From a biological standpoint (one which might have been utterly irrlelevant to JRRT's worldview, except that he had Saruman doing breeding experiments and alludes to the results), anything which can breed with anything else belongs to the same species. Bufo terrestris and Bufo quercicus are two quite similar sorts of toads but are members of distinct species.
This has interesting ramifications for the established cosmology of ME. Men and elves can breed. While their offspring are referred to as half-elves, implying that they are hybrids, none of the three can belong to different speciation. That is, the thing which typically prevented their breeding was extrinsic -- not intrinsic -- to their genetic make-up.
The origin of the Urukhai is debated, some arguing that Sauron bred them for improved performance but that they were (nevertheless) strictly orcish. Some argue that they were just brighter-than-average trolls (although clearly their much vaunted imperviousness to daylight would be thereby rendered problematic). Others claim that they were the offspring of experimental cross-breeding of orcs with men.
But this is the rub. It's not really cross-breeding in the biological sense. If, as all the myths tell us, orcs are merely an extrinsically distinct variety of elves then they are biologically members of the same species as elves and men. All breeding among members of this species are possible (and natural).
If you would like to call them races you may, but the term is essentially meaningless in contemporary biological practice. Different members of the same species (regardless of "race") are more genetically similar to one another than they are to members of any other species. While there are phenomena of individual variation within species and while extrinsically discrete populations can arise, the proof of speciation remains always the potential to breed with any other member of the species.
Although nobody has tested the premise, it is not unreasonable to surmise that hobbits and dwarves might be two distinct species, as in the entire history of ME, there is no record of their breeding with any other species. Of course there might be social (extrinsic) reasons why this had not happened or had not been recorded rather than biological (intrinsic) reasons. But if the premise could be tested, we might prove that there existed some three or more "man-like" species in ME. One including hobbits, one including dwarves, and one including men, elves, peredhel, orcs and Urukhai.
This brings the rumination around to the question of trolls. I think that alashar's initial premise -- that trolls are all one species but have been "artificially" distinguished into classifications based simply on environment -- is as sound as our limited knowledge of trolls admits of.
</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000201>galpsi</A> at: 8/12/00 11:45:30 pm
eljimbo
08-12-2000, 10:03 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I think somewhere in the vastness of the silm, it says trolls were breed..created or whatever to be a knock-off of the treesheapards? Just to quick q's one is almost answered but...Where did hobbits come from? The other is, what happens to the souls of slain, or old dwarves I don't remembers if they went to my buddy mandos or not?
</p>
galpsi
08-13-2000, 01:56 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Treebeard himself repeats the explanation that trolls were made by the Enemy as mockeries of ents, as orcs were of elves.
Per the other two questions:
I haven't the slightest idea whence came hobbits ultimately (but I like to believe that they were independently indigenous in ME).
As to the issue of dwarvish afterlife, it is contested. The elves -- who usually get the last word in JRRT's arguments -- maintain that dead dwarves returned to the earth whence they were created. The dwarves, however, maintain of themselves that Mahal gathers their souls to a special dwarf-ghetto in the Halls of Mandos where they await the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They hold that Iluvatar will hallow them and place them among the Children and that they will serve Mahal in the remaking of Arda. Also the seven fathers will return to their former identities and live among their own kin.
</p>
eljimbo
08-13-2000, 08:47 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
thank you
</p>
gamegie
09-04-2000, 06:22 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Elves created the Ents, or so says Treebard. This is a lovely creation from Tolkien, who would not want to create life and give it to plants or animals. We all as children have spoken to animals or even plants and not gotten any replies.......ONE FOR THE ELVES.....
As for Trolls I do not know where they originated from, but they should be the result of some mutation from humans because I have a couple of guys at school in my class with worse table manners and attitudes than most depictions of Trolls.....
I possess an extensive collection of miniature figurines, mostly from the Lord of the Rings and that period, and I have two trolls. One male cave troll with a big doppy face and enormous hands and one female weilding a meat cleaver carrying dead bodies.
Any specific questions regarding Trolls?
Charming Humble Hobbit</p>
The Barrow-Wight
09-04-2000, 07:04 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
It was the Elves that taught the Ents to speak, but they did not create them. The Ents were spirit put into tree by Yavanna to guards the forest from the Children of Iluvatar.
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
gamegie
09-05-2000, 08:28 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Trolls are usually seen as neutral characters, Tolkien brings them in as both neutral and at the command of Sauron.
How does Sauron manage to control them ? Is it promises of riches or are they very gullible?
Charming Humble Hobbit</p>
Gwaihir the Windlord
09-05-2000, 09:20 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Irksome Hobgoblin
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Put it this way; I would say that the average troll had an IQ of about thirty. Yes, they were gullible.
"Farewell! Wherever you fare, until your eyries receive you at the journey's end."</p>
burrahobbit
09-06-2000, 01:00 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Come now, 30? you should know better than that. It can't be any more than 25.
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
gamegie
09-06-2000, 08:05 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I don't think someone with an IQ of 25 or 30 would be able to do what the trolls do in the hobbit or even in the LOTR.
I think maybe the Gate keeper thingy in front of the moria has maybe an iq in that region.....
Charming Humble Hobbit</p>
galpsi
09-06-2000, 11:12 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
With enough tentacles it suffices.
</p>
Mister Underhill
09-08-2000, 04:00 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
!!
Close reading of Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past, reveals this line: "Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons."
Sauron must have gotten 'em hooked on phonics in the eighty-odd years between Bilbo's adventure and the War of the Ring.
</p>
galpsi
09-09-2000, 09:32 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I don't know. Yes the trolls in the Hobbit were pretty stupid. But did you never get the impression that Tom, Bert and William might have been losers even among trolls? How do you suppose these three poor fools wound up so ostracized that they were living in a lousy liitle cave by the side of the road? Also, wouldn't smarter trolls have known that they were sitting on a stockpile of fine Noldorin hardware and done something more constructive then just leaving them to rust? The lousy goblins knew those blades on first sight.
You know, if space aliens came down to Earth, and the first thing they encountered was a monster-truck rally, they might not accord humans very high intelligence. I fear that Tom, Bert and William gave trolls a worser name than they deserved.
</p>
Mister Underhill
09-10-2000, 09:00 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
LOL, galpsi.
Also, it sticks in my mind that the Olog-hai were an especially nasty type of troll bred especially by Sauron in the Third Age. Uber-trolls, so to speak. No?
</p>
galpsi
09-10-2000, 11:27 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Personally, I subscribe the idea that Uruk-hai were orcs, not trolls. Whether or not they enjoyed an admixture of mannish blood, I am not sure. I side with those who think so.
</p>
Saulotus
09-10-2000, 11:51 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Appendix F TROLLS states that some held they were giant orcs, but Tolkien states they were indeed Trolls.
I believe that you mixed up the terms Olog-hai and Uruk-hai tho dude. Uruk-hai were fer sure Orcs.
</p>
galpsi
09-11-2000, 12:25 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Yes, Saulotus, you are correct. I was conflating the two designations which are clearly distinguished in the black-speech as discrete races (despite the overwhelming similarity of their descriptions and origins). Frankly, I have always been rather doubtful that were such things as Olog-hai. I acknowlege that their existence has been explained and yet I can't remember one. There are Uruk-hai out the wazoo in LotR and there are trolls and there seem to have been half-orcs. But I just don't ever remember an "Olog-hai" appearing anywhere. That is, I remember no Olog-hai if the distinction between Olog-hai and garden-variety trolls is to be maintained (as the distinction between Uruk-hai and garden variety orcs very carefully was). I may very well have forgotten. Where does one appear in the story?
And while you are correct that there is a clear explanantion of them in Appendix F, I take Tolkien at this word that the Appendices are supposed to be transcriptions from the Red Book, and therefore they are by no means infallible. Tolkien himself was often vague and contradictory about the evil races. I never forget his descriptions of the black men from southern Harad as "half-trolls." With this kind of nuanced race-theory, I've never bothered to think that any of the monster stuff is best taken at face value. I don't distinguish any too carefully between trolls, orcs and goblins nor am I convinced that Tolkien distinguished them carefully. I suspect that he distinguished them at all for the purpose of introducing a little variety into the narrative.
</p>
Saulotus
09-11-2000, 02:34 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
>>That is, I remember no Olog-hai if the distinction between Olog-hai and garden-variety trolls is to be maintained... Where does one appear in the story?<<
Check out Pippin's daring deeds at the battle at the gates of Morannon.
Those Olog-hai were Sauron's latest brainchild, along with the Uruk-hai. The advantage for the Olog-hai (seperated by the dismissal of the term Torog) is that they didn't turn to stone in the daylight and were MUCH smarter.
</p>
galpsi
09-11-2000, 04:04 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Yeah, I'm acquainted with the description of the Olog-hai, Mark IV. It's an example I'm seeking.
Not to quibble, but the troll that attacked Beregond, and which Pippin so valiantly slayed, was described as the "troll-chief" of a company of company of (garden-variety?) "hill-trolls." Tolkien always calls Uruk-hai by name; he doesn't just call them orcs. Having made such a repeated point of this with orcs, why wouldn't he do the same with trolls?
One might argue that they have to be Olog-hai because they are fighting during daylight, but JRRT carefully set the scene. The Last Alliance approached Morannon by moonlight and though the sun was just rising in the East, it was veiled "in the reeks of Mordor ... the gathering mirk." Not to mention that the trolls were in deep cleft of Cirith Gorgor, shielded from the pitiful remaining rays by the high-ground all around them.
I just don't think that this serves as the example I'm looking for.
</p>
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I don't really know,but I think that in Shadow of the Past
Gandalf states that trolls are no longer stupid but smart and withstanding sunlight.
My tolkien favorites are <a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com/"target="web">the Tolkientrail</A>(michael martinez loved it!), http://www.barrowdowns.com/The Barrow-downs</A> and its http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/forum</a> and http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad/Mount Gundabad</A>
"Quis,Quae,Quid
Quem,Quam,Quid"
</p>
galpsi
09-11-2000, 08:46 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Perhaps that is right. Are all trolls in the late third age Olog-hai? Did all of the Mark IIIs die out? Possibly, but the continued existence of punky lesser "breeds" of orcs sets a precedent against cataclysmic species change in ME. And what happens to trolls (and orcs and goblins) in the fourth age? Presumably they aren't all wiped out in the War of the Ring. Do they dwindle off into tiny hidden remnants like all of the smaller free-folks during the historical age of men?
</p>
Mister Underhill
09-11-2000, 09:13 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I don't know if your rationalization re: the trolls being shielded from the sunlight is convincing, Master Galbasi -- if this company of trolls were garden-variety, they couldn't have been expected to last for more than an hour even under an enshrouding fog. In The Hobbit, the trolls turn to stone at the first crack of dawn. Not too smart to send a vanguard that has a shelf life of sixty minutes at the outside. Also, if you skip ahead to the Field of Cormallen, you will see that "the sun gleamed red" at the same time that the cry "The eagles are coming!" is raised.
I agree that Tolkien seems to use "orc" and "goblin" interchangeably, but I think he did go to some trouble to distinguish trolls as the "big guns" in Sauron's arsenal. Sure, they don't get as comprehensive a treatment as orcs do, but that's only because orcs are, for a variety of reasons, a much more practical foot-soldier and so we have many more opportunities to meet them in the field.
</p>
Mister Underhill
09-11-2000, 09:30 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
D'oh! Cross-posting!
In reply to your more recent question, galpsi, I hold with those who think that the dark races retreated into their hidden lairs to wait for the tide to turn again in their favor. "Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again." There have to be some baddies left for the Last Battle, don't there? Weren't notes for a planned sequel to LOTR found among JRR's papers?
</p>
The Barrow-Wight
09-11-2000, 09:45 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I believe the short-lived sequel idea even had the working title of "Return of the Shadow".
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
galpsi
09-12-2000, 01:45 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Well yes, Master Underhill, your penultimate post makes the case that all trolls must be Olog-hai in the War of the Ring. Or else that Sauron's shielding dark must preserve trolls from the sun.
Why? Trolls fight on several fronts. Does Sauron ship them there in packing crates? How do they get to the Pelennor at all? It is more than one day's (one night's) march from Mordor.
I would have argued (I did) that Sauron's sheltering dark was conceived for just this kind of contingency. The burning red sun in the sky is a sun compromised. Don't ask for a quasi-sientific optico-filtration essay; I lack the background to write it (and so did the Prof.).
The argument, as I see it, continues to rest on designations. And as another thread on this board points out, the Prof. was keen on them. I just don't remember seeing the term Olog-hai used in the story.
Speaking of rationalizations, I wonder if the Prof. didn't engage in some himself. He justified the superior light resistance of Olog-hai after he decided to have trolls fight for Sauron. It wouldn't be the first difficulty he had had to redact for in the process of telling the big story.
And I'm always wary of using examples from the Hobbit to clinch arguments about anything other than the Hobbit. Those trolls had to turn to stone at the crack of dawn for dramaturgical reasons. The ones in LotR needed to fight in battles and campaigns that transcended the duration of one night. I think that the the dramaturgical reasons came first and the rationalizations followed.
The radical change in troll phototropism seems much more absolute than the similar changes in orc nature. Of course the answer could be that lots of the old Mark IIIs still exist and that we just don't meet them. Lesser orcs could be bullied into daylight service against their inherent fear of the sun. Trolls just couldn't be bullied into daylight, so only the Mark IVs go to war. But I still think it odd that JRRT wouldn't have used his beloved words to distinguish trolls as he so obviously did with orcs. I agree that we get a lot more chances to see orcs, but it seems to me that there are enough trollish opportunities for him to have dropped the name (Olog-hai) if he had wanted to. As he didn't, I remain unconvinced that the race was integral to his thinking.
</p>
Saulotus
09-12-2000, 02:32 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Well dude, the locations for Olog-Hai are given (Mirkwood and the mountains of northern Mordor). Cave-trolls are mentioned by name in Moria by Gandalf. Stone-trolls are mentioned when the fellowship confronts Bilbo's misadventure, (the fact that that at the time they are stone is like coincidental, I think as the HOBBIT calls them stone-trolls too). Ettendales are mentioned as Troll-country, and I postulated somewhere earlier that the term etten is prolly an old term for giant (gi-ent; an old area name held over from the early LOTR writings of Entish lands), and mentioned as having hill-trolls in that area in LOTR (which maybe these hill-giants that Bilbo mentions).
Seems to me that not all trolls are of the Olog-hai race if all these other trolls are mentioned by name and alive and kickin at the time of LOTR.
Here's like a sidebar to the dark thing; Appendix F states they could like stand the sun, but ONLY under the will of Sauron, not a natural trait. Of what exact meaning the term Twilight referrs to is prolly an open debate.
</p>
galpsi
09-12-2000, 02:40 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
All of which I take as evidence for my point that Olog-hai don't have much real existence but were an editorial afterthought, a rationalization shallowly conceived as an analogy with the Uruk-hai, if not a simple conflation.
</p>
Mister Underhill
09-12-2000, 10:42 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Well, galpsi, I certainly can't refute arguments that point out that the prof's mythology isn't airtight. After all, JRRT himself realized post-LOTR that many elements of the mythos couldn't stand up under logical scrutiny and would require a comprehensive and fundamental overhaul to be made into a theoretically secure system (if such a revision was even possible, considering that LOTR was already out there). Considering your vast knowledge of all things Tolkien, you've probably already read Part Five of the HoME book Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed", in which the prof wrestles with some of the stickier issues (e.g., the nature and origin of Orcs, a topic which is particularly relevant to our discussion here, since the nature and origin of trolls are also mentioned, albeit with a characteristically less comprehensive treatment).
I was arguing more in a spirit of trying to make what's there "work". If JRRT decided to invent the mention of the Olog-hai in Appendix F as a patch to upgrade trolls v1.0 to v1.1, then I'll download and install the patch in the spirit in which it's offered, and take JRRT at his word that Sauron's Mark IV's were a superior model and were probably the ones who fought in his campaigns.
But you're right that the prof was a bit lazy in his conception of the troll-folk, and I've never argued that they were "integral" to his thinking. In the end, you're right, they're there to provide a bit of variety.
</p>
Saulotus
09-12-2000, 11:09 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I ain't so sure about that dude.
Having no direct mention in the story, with later clarification is used many times by Tolkien.
Want a REALLY good example of what I'm talkin 'bout? Show me where the name Edhellond occurs ANYWHERE in LOTR.
I can use more examples if ya like. The Appendices were to illustrate points that may have been vague in the story, or lacking an explanation; would have slowed the story establishing one. Kinda like the War of the Dwarves and Orcs which is like way appendix material.
Far as I know dude, Olog-hai is original and not a revisional feature.
</p>
galpsi
09-12-2000, 12:10 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Considering your vast knowledge of all things Tolkien, you've probably already read Part Five of the HoME book Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed"...<hr></blockquote>
More like vastly inadequate ... I've only ever read Hobbit, LotR, Silma., and a little bit of HoME, v. 1. The rest of HoME post-dates my Tolkien-reading days. I just muddle through on my vague memories of what I did read.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I was arguing more in a spirit of trying to make what's there "work". If JRRT decided to invent the mention of the Olog-hai in Appendix F as a patch to upgrade trolls v1.0 to v1.1, then I'll download and install the patch in the spirit in which it's offered…<hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I tend to treat LotR more like "just a book" then a lot of other posters here do. And taking LotR as a story -- rather than as a descriptive treatise on an imaginary ecosphere -- I just can’t see that the whole Olog-hai conception was integral to the story. There it sits in the appendices, gently enriching, but not really integrated. I’m not trying to say that anybody who makes sense of this question differently than I am is wrong. Not at all. Mostly I was just realizing to myself, and subsequently remarking to everyone who followed this infernal thread, that this term just isn’t in the story. I was surprised. I keep expecting someone better acquainted with the text than I am to find it and post here. I kind of hope someone would. That’s all.
But I do totally disagree with this premise.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Appendices were to illustrate points that may have been vague in the story, or lacking an explanation; would have slowed the story establishing one.<hr></blockquote>
JRRT could so easily have changed the references somewhere in the text to read Olog-hai instead of stone-troll or hill-troll. One sentence in the story could have clarified the point. There were already a few references in the the story that he could have built upon. I really think that the term was extrinsic to the story. Someone find a citation and correct me. As I said, I'd kind of rather be mistaken. But I can't find the cite.
</p>
burrahobbit
09-12-2000, 12:41 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Correct me if I'm wrong, But do'nt we first hear the term Uruk-hai is from the Uruk-hai themselves. We don't ever get a chance to hear the Olog-hai talk about themselves like we do Ugluk and company. Might I ask what Marks I and II were?
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
Saulotus
09-12-2000, 12:53 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
>>JRRT could so easily have changed the references somewhere in the text to read Olog-hai instead of stone-troll or hill-troll.<<
Dude, the fact that he didn't seems to mean that they were different eh?
Would you call a Numenorean a Druedain?
They're all just men afterall ain't they?
</p>
galpsi
09-12-2000, 01:59 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
You seem to have taken my statement that all trolls in the WotR were Olog-hai more literally than I meant it. That possibility was intended as a rhetorical foil to my premise that there really weren't any Olog-hai. That is the premise that I have meant to assert, at least to some degree all along.
Don't get me wrong; I'm not attempting to foreclose the question. I don't pretend to have exclusively the right answer. I'm thinking this out aloud among you. But the logic of your post supports something about my claim. You'd think that the Prof. would've called them Olog-hai if they were in fact Olog-hai. That he doesn't call them that doesn't preclude the possibility that any exist, but it seems odd that we don't see any.
</p>
galpsi
09-12-2000, 02:01 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I made up Mk. III & IV haphazardly. I have no idea what I & II were. (Ent & transitionally degraded ent? dunno). Good point about speakers.
</p>
Saulotus
09-12-2000, 08:58 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Ya we do. Pippin kills one.
The battle of Pelennor adds new trolls to the mix. Mountain-trolls by name.
Want to know another term concernin trolls that doesn't appear until the Appendix?
Torog.
Since Tolkien didn't use Torog in the text, they must not exist.
Or how 'bout this one; Sindarin. The Sindar didn't speak Sindarin 'cause it ain't mentioned in the text. Only the Appendix, so we can say that they must have spoken Westron or sumpin cause if Tolkien really wanted us to know it was Sindarin they spoke, he woulda wrote Sindarin in the text.
Say g'night Gracie.
</p>
galpsi
09-13-2000, 02:02 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 1032</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Saulotus:
Now this is just going in circles and I'm tempted to drop it. But for clarity's sake, I’ll try to tie down a few more ends. Pippin killed a "hill-troll." We’ve already flogged this horse. Could've been an Olog-hai but the text doesn't say so. I'm asking if anybody knows of a place where the text uses the word. I thought that that request was straightforward.
I take your nominalist point about torog and Sindarin, but I don’t really think it clinches the point. If the word torog never appeared at all, it would not diminish the (mere) existence of trolls. Their collective existence is well established by the story. Torog, however, does not significantly adjust our understanding of trolls. It is just one of those details, like the analogous yrch, which lend complexity to the story and thereby lend it mimetic credibility. If you subtracted the back-story word, torog, from the story, troll would still carry the essential nominative load.
Sindarin is a little trickier. I’ll take your word that the designation doesn’t appear in the story. As I recall, it is just referred to as "Elvish." In the following rhetorical flourish, however, I think that you overplay your case.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Or how 'bout this one; Sindarin. The Sindar didn't speak Sindarin 'cause it ain't mentioned in the text. Only the Appendix, so we can say that they must have spoken Westron or sumpin cause if Tolkien really wanted us to know it was Sindarin they spoke, he woulda wrote Sindarin in the text.<hr></blockquote>
Sindarin is spoken in the story on many occasions: by elves, by hobbits, by men, etc. Concrete examples exist quite literally. So it can’t be Westron. Also the notion of the thing, Sindarin, is pretty clearly given us. But I would concur. The story is not hurt if, indeed, "Elvish" is the only designation given to Sindarin in the story. Sindarin takes on it’s much profounder significance in Silma., and other works where the sundering of the Elves is spelled out much more completely than in LotR.
In either case, torog or Sindarin, the role of the words is essentially nominative, not distinctive. (As JRRT stated in his essay on languages in the Appendices, Sindarin is the relevant spoken language in LotR, the other Elvish tongues – though extant – didn’t figure in this history.) This makes the cases of torog and Sindarin substantially different than the case of Olog-hai. The existence of trolls and of an Elvish language is firmly established. The fact that synonyms exist to describe them is merely a matter of texture. But any terminological variance doesn’t undercut the mere existence of the things. In the case of the Olog-hai, I would argue that uncertainty is more undermining. Their very existence -- as discrete things -- is never established with any of the same kind of concrete examples -- in the story -- which are given to prove the existence of spoken Elvish or of trolls.
That’s my whole point. In the story, itself, I can think of clear-cut examples of Elvish speech and I can think of clear-cut examples of trolls. I cannot, however, think of one clear-cut example of Olog-hai in the story. This is not to say they do not or cannot exist, only that their existence is not made concrete to the reader in the way that the identity of Uruk-hai is carefully distinguished from that of garden-variety orcs.
g.
</p>
Mister Underhill
09-13-2000, 09:38 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 46</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
It seems that nothing short of an explicit, non-appendicitic (I made up that word! Get me, I'm a philologist!) textual reference will satisfy you galpsi. I am not the textual expert you seek, and perhaps this thread will finally have to be laid to rest until someone has a chance to do a read through now that the question has been raised.
At the risk of beating a dead horse into an unrecognizable bloody pulp, though, let me compile some of the points made so far into a case of seemingly overwhelming circumstantial evidence that the "mountain-troll" Pippin victimized was a fabled Olog-hai.
Burrahobbit’s observation re: the Uruk-hai is a keen one. A quick scan of “The Battle of Pelennor Fields” reveals no references made specifically to any Uruk-hai, only to orcs – but surely this formidable host was comprised mostly of Sauron’s toughest foot-soldiers? I wonder how often the Uruk-hai are referred to as such outside of conversations among themselves? Now that I think about it, JRR tended to confine utterances made in the Black Speech to the mouths of the bad guys – one notably shocking exception being Gandalf’s reading of the Ring’s inscription at the Council of Elrond, which caused some to stop their ears.
I happened across the “half-trolls” reference you cited earlier, g, and noticed that the quote says that the men of Far Harad were <u>like</u> half-trolls – more of a hyperbole on their extraordinary size (and ugliness?) than a racial denotation. This shows that JRR wasn’t quite as careless with his “race theory” as your evidence might have suggested.
IMHO, we can’t just dismiss the info in the appendices as mere crude editorial band-aids. They are a part of the book and are arguably more canonically valid than, say, the Silmarillion. For that matter, I’d argue that we can’t just disregard info in The Hobbit because it seems like an inconvenient and best forgotten dramaturgical conceit. The prof’s well-known perfectionism argues against the idea that he would make such a clumsy “fix” on trolls when he could have easily inserted an Olog-hai reference into the text if he thought one was motivated. I’d say that the same trait would likely have prevented him from simply ignoring his earlier troll rule. The HoME book I mentioned earlier shows that, even many years later, JRR still pondered (and felt obligated to abide by) this curious feature of troll nature.
So if we can conclude that Sauron did in fact breed superior Mark IV trolls, and that the Mark III’s remained susceptible to sunlight, it’s not an unreasonable deduction to presume that the trolls encountered before the Morannon, at least, are Olog-hai. Why come up with an unfounded optico-filtration theory when the prof has already offered a reasonable explanation? And if he bred them right there in Mordor and presumably had a stockpile on hand, why would he throw the older model into battle first in the critical conflict about to be joined on his very doorstep?
So my argument in a nutshell is that we do see Olog-hai, but that the prof never found a place that motivated a specific Black Speech reference to them <u>until</u> he got to the appendix. You’ve mentioned his love of nomenclature. Maybe he had this cool name for the suped-up troll-folk and didn’t want to waste it, and <u>that’s</u> why he put it in the appendix. That’s my best shot without a explicit textual reference on hand.
Look at that horse. What a mess.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> Edited by: 9/13/00 1:05:47 pm
Saulotus
09-13-2000, 11:04 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 22</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
>>I think that you overplay your case.
Quote:
Or how 'bout this one; Sindarin. The Sindar didn't speak Sindarin 'cause it ain't mentioned in the text. Only the Appendix, so we can say that they must have spoken Westron or sumpin cause if Tolkien really wanted us to know it was Sindarin they spoke, he woulda wrote Sindarin in the text.<<
Nope, ya just missed the point dude. Just showin the illogic of yer argument by givin an example that is patently false, yet usin yer logic would be true.
</p>
The Barrow-Wight
09-13-2000, 11:33 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1271</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Olog-hai's and lows
Here is the draft version of the article I am writing about this subject.
Olog Hai’s and Lows
Appendix F. of The Lord of the Rings describes a new breed of troll, the Olog-hai, bred by Sauron in the late Third Age with the unusual ability (for trolls) to go about in the sunlight without petrification, a power which was available when the projected will of the Dark Lord was upon them. Sauron also heavily armed the Olog-hai and gave them a rudimentary education in the Black Speech These new trolls made their first appearances in Southern Mirkwood and the mountain borders of Mordor.
In the War of the Ring, Sauron used many trolls extensively in his forces as an equivalent to heavy cavalry and shock troops. Daytime trolls such as the Olog-hai would certainly have proved to be extremely beneficial to his forces and devastating to those of his enemies. But, since many of the battles fought in the war were fought in the hours of daylight, were all of the trolls in Sauron’s armies of the Olog-hai variety, or were other breeds of trolls also able to fight beyond the hours of darkness? We have to look at the history of trolls for possible answers.
Trolls have their beginning far back in the dawn of the First Age where, according to Treebeard, they were made by Morgoth in mockery of Ents. Originally they were all dull and lumpish in nature, very unintelligent and posessing no language. They were very strong, powerful and extremely large in size, sometimes nearly as big as Ents. But the early trolls had one great weakness, they could not endure the light of the Sun. When exposed to its rays they immediately and permanently turned to stone.
During the long years of the First Age trolls slowly evolved into at least two different varieties: those that turned to stone in sunlight and those that didn’t. The day-walking trolls were first witnessed in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad where they formed the guard of Gothmog. During that battle, Húrin was overcome after slaying seventy of the creatures, spewing their black blood with each hew of his axe. But he was eventually overcome as ‘ the sun went down beyond the sea’.
As time went on and the Ages passed, not much was seen of trolls until near the end of the Third Age. By then trolls had apparently divided into five distinct types, some achieving increased abilites and intelligence along the way.
According to the Red Book of Westmarch the Stone-trolls living in the western parts of Middle-Earth spoke a debased form of Common Speech. Because Tom, Bert, and William, the three trolls famous for their part in The Hobbit, spoke Westron of a sort, it was likely they were Stone-trolls. If so, Stone-trolls were a troll type unable to withstand the sun.
There were several trolls in Moria which Gandalf thought were cave-trolls. If the wizard was correct, Cave-trolls were very large, had green, scalish skin and toeless feet. Their hides were so tough that only Frodo’s blade Sting could pierce them. Like their original ancestors of the First Age, they bled black. Their reaction to exposure to the sun is uncertain, but being cave-trolls they were like as afraid of the sun as stone-trolls were.
Another type of troll was the Hill-troll. This breed of troll lived in and around Gorogoth. They were taller and broader than Men, wore huge round bucklers and wielded heavy hammers in battle. They had a terrible practice of biting the throats of creatures they felled in combat. They were hill-trolls that swarmed out of the Morannon against the armies of Gondor. Again, black blood is seen gushing at a wound caused by a blade of Westernesse, this time wielded by Pippin of the Shire.
Yet another breed of troll was employed by Sauron in the War. Mountain-trolls were present at the Siege of Gondor wielding the great battering ram Grond against the Gate of Minas Tirith.
From these descriptions it is plain the the Olog-hai, being only recently developed, were probably not the only day-trolls in Sauron’s arsenal. The ancient trolls of Gothmog’s train certainly predate them. The Hill-trolls worked quite well in the sunlight during the battle at the Black Gate, and the Mountain-trolls were able to travel all the way to Minas-Tirith to participate in the Siege of Gondor and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The Stone-trolls and Cave-troll were probably not present in Sauron’s traveling forces.
The Olog-hai variety of trolls is only referenced once in The Lord of the Rings. Otherwise trolls are identified simply as trolls or as the type of troll they are: hill-, cave-, mountain- or stone-trolls. Orcs on the other hand are identified as orcs or as Uruk-hai, the super-orc equivalent of the Olog-hai. Throughout the books it is plain when an orc is being identified as an Uruk-hai because the orcs themselves will usually say so. But when trolls are shown they are never labelled as Olog-hais.
If Gandalf had just once labelled any trolls as Olog-hai like he labelled orcs as Uruks in Moria, then the question might be answered. But, since there are obviously different types of trolls that can stand the sunlight and sun-proof trolls existed long before the Third Age, it would be impossible to assume that all trolls in Sauron’s service were Olog-hai and equally impossible to accurately label a troll as Olog-hai simply because he walked in the sun.
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
galpsi
09-13-2000, 12:04 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 1043</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Kittle's magisterial effort to oil the waters would seem to obviate further discussion on the topic. Kudos!
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000201>galpsi</A> Edited by: 9/13/00 2:10:09 pm
Mister Underhill
09-13-2000, 12:28 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 47</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Well done, Kittle. I guess Olog-hai's will have to go down in history with other ingenious but too-late-to-make-a-difference designs like the German flying wing bomber.
</p>
Mister Underhill
10-01-2000, 06:08 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 64</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Alright, Wight, I know this thread is musty and that your article on the topic has now become BD "canon", but after re-reading the Silmarillion for the the first time in (at least) fifteen years during my recent vacation, I'm not sure I'm convinced by your argument that there were pre-Third Age sun-resistant trolls.
The reference you make from Of the Fifth Battle to clinch your argument is far from conclusive. In fact, as nearly as I could discern, this is the sole reference to trolls in the whole Silma -- and it clearly states that Hurin is battling the trolls at night ("Day shall come again."). Later (after sunrise??), Hurin is finally overcome by multitudes of orcs, not trolls. The "sun went down beyond the sea" only after Hurin had done enough hacking to pile up so many orc corpses around him that he was finally buried beneath them and then was bound and dragged off to Angband by Gothmog.
If there were indeed sun-resistant trolls in the First or Second ages, why wouldn't Morgoth have used them as shock troops a la Sauron? I'll take up the flag and charge forward again to contend that the overwhelming circumstantial evidence seems to point to Sauron's trolls being Olog-hai. It's not unreasonable to assume that Gothmog's troll-guard were sun-vulnerable -- the battle was fought on the plain in front of Angband, within easy march for the trolls to come up out of Angband's pits to act as fresh reinforcements once the sun had gone down.
The little foreword preceding the appendices states that "their principal purpose is to illustrate the War of the Ring and its origins, and to fill up some of the gaps in the main story"... and that's just what the reference in Appendix F has done.
</p>
burrahobbit
10-01-2000, 07:05 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 454</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I think that Hurin is using a metaphor. It seems like the best explanation at this time.
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
Mister Underhill
10-02-2000, 11:55 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 65</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I don't think so, burra. The previous paragraph describes the decimation of the remnant of Hurin and Huor's forces until only Hurin remained "as the sun westered on the sixth day".
It may sound outrageous to think that Hurin fought all day, hacked trolls through the night, then kept on chopping orcs through a good part of the next day, but reading the description of the Fifth Battle, one gets the impression that the fighting went on virtually nonstop from at least the fourth day. Remember too that Morgoth had given orders that Hurin was to be taken alive.
</p>
The Barrow-Wight
10-02-2000, 12:09 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1386</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
He who uses the words of the Barrow-Wight as canon has probably strayed from the path of good sense.... but....
I believe that 'Day shall come' had nothing to do with the time of day. It was just his way of saying 'Your time is gonna come.'
And it does say that he was slaying trolls, his axe smoking in their black blood, until the Orcs grappled him.
Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him away.
Thus ended Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea.
I think its clear here that the word 'thus' was referring to the capture of Hurin, and after that 'the sun went down'. I can't read this any other way though I have been trying all afternoon.
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
Mister Underhill
10-02-2000, 12:40 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 66</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
The language seems carefully chosen to me.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "There as the sun westered on the sixth day, and the shadow of Ered Wethrin grew dark, Huor fell pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye..."<hr></blockquote>
The sun westered. Ered Wethrin grew dark. This seems a clear description of sunset.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I believe that 'Day shall come' had nothing to do with the time of day. It was just his way of saying 'Your time is gonna come.'<hr></blockquote>
Unless you think that the trolls couldn't stand the light of the sun. Then Hurin is crying defiantly that he's going to hold out against these trolls lined up against him until the sun comes up and they're forced to retreat.
Then there seems to be a shift in the battle, to me:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "...the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them."<hr></blockquote>
I think it would take some time to heap up so many Orc corpses around you that you're eventually overcome because you're buried by them. The trolls seem to have either all been killed or else retired by this point.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thus ended Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea.
I think its clear here that the word 'thus' was referring to the capture of Hurin, and after that 'the sun went down'. I can't read this any other way though I have been trying all afternoon. <hr></blockquote>
Personally, I picture in my mind the gates of Angband clanging closed as the sun goes down on the last day, with the laughter of Gothmog echoing from behind the iron doors into the distance. Thus ending the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
Anyway, this slim, controversial paragraph doesn't seem like conclusive enough evidence for the replay judge to overturn the ruling on the field -- that only Olog-hai are sun-resistant.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 10/2/00 2:41:49 pm
The Barrow-Wight
10-02-2000, 01:36 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1387</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I agree, the language seems chosen carefully. But somehow you are separating two events that are obviously (and carefully) connected...two sentences... 1)Hurin is dragged away; followed by 2)the battle ending and sun setting. ( the 3rd sentence says 'Night fell in Hithlum'). If you really want to read it literally, Gothmog had time to drag Hurin all the way to Angband before the sun went down. But adding an entire sunrise and day between the capture of Hurin and the end of the battle is just not implied or suggested by the text. Forcing the Olog-hai references into this instance just doesn't fit. Square pegs, round holes.
Perhaps the Olog-hai were the only sun-proof trolls of their day? And those of the first age were destroyed with their master? Just a though that would jive with both theories.
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
Mister Underhill
10-02-2000, 04:47 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 67</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I don't know. Am I crazy? How are others reading this?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "There as the sun westered on the sixth day, and the shadow of Ered Wethrin grew dark, Huor fell pierced with a venomed arrow in his eye, and all the valiant Men of Hador were slain about him in a heap; and the Orcs hewed their heads and piled them as a mound of gold in the sunset.
Last of all Hurin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Hurin cried: ' Aure entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled with him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery.
Thus ended the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea. Night fell in Hithlum, and there came a great storm of wind out of the West." (All emphasis mine, obviously)<hr></blockquote>
Sorry for the repitition and the long quote, but maybe others who don't have the Silma handy can get in on the action without having to look it up.
From the first paragraph, it seems clear that the sun was setting as Huor bought it. After that, Hurin slays seventy. Seventy trolls, not counting Orcs?. I would read it that way, arguing that his battle cry was directed at the trolls. But even taking the conservative view, at a rate of one troll or orc per minute, it would take him roughly an hour to do all that hacking. Wouldn't the sun be way down by that time? Not even counting Gothmog taking him, binding, him, and dragging him back across the plain of Ard-galen to Angband all the way from the Fens of Serech.
So in my reading, the chronology goes something like this:
-Huor and the rest of the guys buy it at sunset.
-Hurin slays trolls through the night. By morning, all are dead or else have been forced to retreat.
-Then come the Orcs. Hurin slays so many of those over the course of the morning that their corpse are piled up and finally he's overcome by the sheer numbers of the dead.
-He's bound by Gothmog, who transports him to Angband, finally reaching the fortress later that day as the sun is going down again.
I can't understand why Hurin would be crying "Day shall come again!" when it's already daytime. I tried to get a literal translation of the Elvish, without complete success, unfortunately, but I did find that "aur", the root that "Aure" is evidently derived from, means not only "day" but can also be interpreted as "sunlight" and "morning". Instead of supposing that Hurin is making some abstract metaphorical reference, why not take his desperate and defiant battle cry at its literal meaning?
Further, trolls are conspicuously absent during other daylight action. They're not mentioned when Gothmog meets Fingon (another Balrog helps him out on that occasion), nor are they mentioned in the laundry list of forces that empty out of Angband on the morning of the sixth day (wolves, wolfriders, Balrogs, and dragons all do get a mention).
I reiterate my argument that this paragraph isn't nearly definitive enough to clinch the argument that daylight trolls existed pre-Third Age.
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 10/2/00 7:00:57 pm
The Barrow-Wight
10-02-2000, 06:17 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1389</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Again, I say you are forcing the issue rather than reading the text. You are inserting large periods of unaccounted-for time in order to support the Olag-hai theory. Forget the Olog-hai. Forget everything but the text .... then read my last post and it is plain. Only when you try to deny what you see in order to support your presumptions can you possibly insert so much into so little.
As for trolls mentioned at other times, there are no other mentions of trolls in the Silm. (are there?) So that's certainly no support for the arguement that they couldn't walk in the sun (or could). This is our one example.
But dang! This is a good discussion, ain't it!? We should try Balrog wings next! <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
Mister Underhill
10-02-2000, 06:55 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 68</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Auuuggghhhhh! This IS a good discussion. I <u>love</u> the troll thread. But it seems that I'm the one who's reading the text and you who's not! (...he grumbled). Doesn't the sun set twice during the passage in question? If the sun is setting when Huor buys it and Hurin is being spirited into Angband 70 trolls later, doesn't that mean a considerable span of time has passed?
I didn't notice another troll reference anywhere else in the Silma, but I would argue that, if anything, this seems to support the theory that they weren't sun resistant in the Elder Days. If they were, Morgoth would have used 'em, and we would have read about 'em. Troops that turn to stone at the first hint of daylight aren't very practical except maybe for night-fights on your own doorstep.
Appendix F directly contradicts your interpretation. Notice the language here:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature...
then...
Unlike the older race of the Twilight they [the Olog-hai] could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.<hr></blockquote>
Take that! Aure entuluva!!
</p>
burrahobbit
10-02-2000, 06:56 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 462</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
If there are any other mentions, they aren't in the index. But neither is the troll-gaurd of Gothmog.
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>
The Barrow-Wight
10-03-2000, 04:38 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1390</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I don't see two sunsets .... I see two relatively simultaneous events that both ended before the same sunset. They were not sequential events, occuring directly one after the other, but rather battles that were occuring at the same time. Huor catches and an arrow in the eye and somtime after that Hurin fights the 70 trolls and then orcs finally wear him down and drag him away as the sun finally goes down.
But once again to the text:
If 'day shall come again' means its night, why does the sun go down after he says it? You are injecting a sunrise and at least 12 hours of unaccounted for time.
And while we're counting:
'...on the fourth day of the war, there began the Nirnaeth Arnoediad...'
and
'.... as the sun westered on the sixth day...'
There are four pages of battle between these days. But between the 6th day mention and the alleged 7th day there is a paragraph describing the battle of one. Did this battle last through 12 hours of darkness and then 12 more hours passed to drag Hurin to Angband and the the sun set? Not likely.
And let's not forget a point from my Balrog article that asks why a (supposedly) winged creature would need a guard of land-bound creatures. If they were also limited to night action they would be doubly useless as a guard.
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A> <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 10/3/00 7:08:06 am
Mister Underhill
10-03-2000, 10:29 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 69</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> If 'day shall come again' means its night, why does the sun go down after he says it? You are injecting a sunrise and at least 12 hours of unaccounted for time.<hr></blockquote>
The sun goes down before he says it, I say. Huor falls as the sun sets. Then Hurin makes his last stand through the night, I say, crying his battle cry.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> '...on the fourth day of the war, there began the Nirnaeth Arnoediad...'
and
'.... as the sun westered on the sixth day...'
There are four pages of battle between these days. But between the 6th day mention and the alleged 7th day there is a paragraph describing the battle of one. Did this battle last through 12 hours of darkness and then 12 more hours passed to drag Hurin to Angband and the the sun set? Not likely.<hr></blockquote>
I'm not entirely sure what your argument is here. That the description is too slim to account for this amount of time? That's easily explainable by the fact that the only action to account for is Hurin single-handedly taking on wave after wave of foes. I think the time can be accounted for. I think it's less likely that "the sun westered", Huor was slain, then Hurin managed to kill at least seventy (probably more), then was overcome, bound, and sprinted off to Angband in less time than it would take for night to fall. In your scenario, trolls must have been lining up single-file so that he could kill three or four at a stroke to get his work done so quickly. It clearly states that Huor's fall and Hurin's last stand weren't simultaneous action. "Last of all, Hurin stood alone." and so on.
The terse Silma descriptions leave much to the imagination. I try to imagine the scene. I imagine Hurin, covered in gore, probably commanding a small piece of high ground, wielding his two-handed axe. I imagine trolls and orcs reluctant to attack such a fearsome foe with corpses of their fellows piled up about him, and Gothmog having to whip them forward to get them to attack. Finally, after Hurin falls, there's some wrapping up that Gothmog has to do. Organize the forces, gather equipment, bury the dead maybe, get everything ready to march back to Angband. Mock Hurin a bit. Then march back to Angband -- not just Gothmog himself, but a whole battle-weary host. I think by the time all of this took place, a seventh day could very reasonably have passed.
I went to the bookstore this morning to see if I could find elucidation somewhere in HoME. Alas, I could only find two early accounts of Hurin's last stand, one in The Shaping of Middle-Earth, the other in The Book of Lost Tales, neither more clear or detailed than the Silma account -- though, notably, in both accounts the trolls aren't mentioned at all, and it says instead that Hurin slew "well nigh one hundred Orcs" before he was taken. I admit that this was by no means an exhaustive search.
You say tom-a-to, and I say tom-ah-to. I still think my interpretation is more reasonable, and that this evidence isn't enough to stipulate that there were pre-Third Age sun-resistant trolls. The LotR and The Hobbit, works that were published with JRRT's stamp of approval (or at least, his best editorial work), have to overrule this inconclusive bit of evidence from a volume that even its editor admits may not represent the author's truest intentions.
</p>
The Barrow-Wight
10-03-2000, 10:55 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1393</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
The orc heads hewed by Huor 'piled...as a mound of gold in the sunset.'... Not after the sunset, in the sunset... meaning as the sun went down.
I'm reading that Hurin fought in the same sunset. You are adding time and orc slaying rate times, wrap-up time, etc. (all unaccounted for in the text) all in a forced effort to match the Olog-hai reference in the appendice F. Whereas I add nothing. I simply read the words.
I'm not pretending to know how the trolls and orcs attacked, their formations or their actions. I only know that 70 trolls were dead, Hurin was caught and the sun at last went down.
Since we've both reiterated our stance here many times, lets call it a truce and end the debate between us. Someone else can challenge one or both of us if they have the notion.
If you feel obligated to state your stance one more time, I understand. I can't seem to stop either <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 76</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
as this is no longer a discussion about the different sorts of trolls,but rather sth. about hurin and the nirnaeth arnoediad,and the way it is written in the silmarillion(remember christopher could have changed that part!) wouldn't it be better to move this to the silma revised forum?
My tolkien favorites are <a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com/"target="web">the Tolkientrail</A>(michael martinez loved it!), http://www.barrowdowns.com/The Barrow-downs</A> and its http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/forum</a> and http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad/Mount Gundabad</A>
"Quis,Quae,Quid
Quem,Quam,Quid"
</p>
Mister Underhill
10-03-2000, 12:14 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 70</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The orc heads hewed by Huor 'piled...as a mound of gold in the sunset.'... Not after the sunset, in the sunset... meaning as the sun went down. <hr></blockquote>
It was the heads of the men of Hador that were piled in the sunset, dang it. <u>Then</u> Hurin stood alone... Ah, dabnabbit, truce. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">
My point is mainly to introduce a reasonable doubt on this issue. To bring the thread back to the previous issue -- where, oh where have the Olog-hai gone? -- the linch-pin of your argument (and your article) is that pre-Olog-hai sun-resistant trolls existed in the First and/or Second Ages. I deferred earlier on the assumption that there was ample proof of such trolls in Silma, and only after my recent re-read did I begin to question. I'm not trying to force anything to fit except into the framework of what JRRT himself wrote -- the Olog-hai were the first sun-resistant trolls, even counting the ones from the Elder Days.
Everyone seems willing to throw out the Appendix F statement, not to mention allusions in the main text to new, tougher trolls that were abroad, not to mention clear instances of Sauron's trolls fighting in daylight, as irrelevant. I guess I'll just have to throw in the towel on this one with a quizzical scratch of the head.
</p>
The Barrow-Wight
10-03-2000, 12:19 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1395</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Only if we decided to discuss it in comparison with the HoME (which Underhill didn't find (and I would have never even had a clue where to look)). So this is still a strictly Silmarillion / LotR discussion.
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
Mister Underhill
10-03-2000, 12:37 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 71</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I can't stop!! At this rate, I'll reach Wight status just on this thread!
This came up on the random quote:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "Aurë entuluva!
day shall come again."
Húrin each of the 70 times he slew a Troll at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad<hr></blockquote>
Your interpretation and mine agree here. He slew 70 trolls. Then umpteen Orcs. Don't you have to account for that time somehow? The text is spare and stingy as to details, but isn't it implicit that it took <u>some</u> time to do all that hacking? Can't I get you to agree to that much, anyway?
</p>
The Barrow-Wight
10-03-2000, 01:14 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1396</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I can't deny that killing a lot of trolls might take some time.... but the sun doesn't just plop beneath the horizon. Let's say 3-4 trolls a minute (I'm sure the rate was probably was higher...he was hackin' and stackin')... that's 15-20 minutes. Then they round him up and drag him off. The sun disappears at last. We have the natural progression of 'sunset' to 'Night fell.'
Perhaps that seems like a short time to compress all that action into. But its more likely than an entire night and day passing. See, the whole idea of Hurin battling in the dark means that an entire day (after the supposed night battle) must be missing from the account of the battle.
See! Look what you made me do! I can't stop!! <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
Mister Underhill
10-03-2000, 02:13 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 72</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Must... stop... troll thread..............
Ugh. Can't do it. Once more into the breach!
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Let's say 3-4 trolls a minute (I'm sure the rate was probably was higher...he was hackin' and stackin')... that's 15-20 minutes. Then they round him up and drag him off.<hr></blockquote>
Not so. Then he starts on the Orcs. JRRT doesn't give us any hard numbers here (We need to get a list of questions together and then hold a seance or something. Balrog wings and Olog-hai at the top of the list. We'll throw in that dot question while we're at it.), but he clearly kills more than a few. As I mentioned, some HoME versions say he slew "well nigh a hundred Orcs". Anyway, "Ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them." That's a few Orcs.
Also, I think your slayage rate is a bit optimistic, even for mighty Hurin. As an experiment, go outside and try splitting seventy pieces of defenseless firewood with an axe (with attendant battle cry each time) and see how long it takes you. Now imagine you're trying to split bloodthirsty beasts that are taller than Shaq with skin as hard as stone. Now try doing it after having already battled without any appreciable rest for at least 36 hours (I don't see a letup in the battle from the fifth day onward: "On the fifth day as night fell, and they were still far from Ered Wethrin, the Orcs surrounded the host of Hithlum, and they fought until day..." Fifth day all day and until around sunset on day six equals 36 hours). And that's all just as a warm up for the Orcs.
You're also forgetting to add time for the trip back to Angband from the Fens of Serech. I don't know how far it is across Ard-galen, but in "Of Beleriand and Its Realms", it says, "Before the gates of Angband filth and desolation spread southward for many miles over the wide plain of Ard-galen." I don't think it was an easy jaunt of a few minutes. Plus, I don't know why Gothmog would hotfoot it back to Angband in time for sunset. I imagine him taking time to rub it in Hurin's face ("with mockery"), maybe parading him in front of the hewn heads of his kinsmen, perhaps? Too much time to make it back to Angband for night on the sixth day.
And, check out this tantalizing bit, from "Of the Ruin of Doriath", spoken by Hurin outside the closed gates of Gondor:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Hurin stood in despair before the silent cliffs of Echoriath, and the westering sun, piercing the clouds, stained his white hair with red... 'Turgon, Turgon, remember the Fen of Serech! O Turgon, will you not hear in your hidden halls?' But there was no sound save the wind in the dry grasses. 'Even so they hissed in Serech at the sunset,' he said; and as he spoke the sun went behind the Mountains of Shadow, and a darkness fell about him, and the wind ceased, and there was silence in the waste.
(Emphasis added)<hr></blockquote>
Notice the similarity in the language. "Westering sun", followed immediately by night falling. Don't these words from Hurin's own mouth prove that he was in the Fens when the sun went down on the sixth day, and not in Angband?
Finally, Mr. Wight, you've once again sidestepped my arguments concerning text in the LotR by ignoring them. What of the statements that old time trolls were sun-vulnerable?
Mr. Underhill collapsed upon the field of battle, spent. Blackness took him, and he knew no more...
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 10/3/00 4:45:26 pm
The Barrow-Wight
10-03-2000, 02:40 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1397</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I quit!
I could argue every point including the one from the LotR and never even mention the sidestepping you did earlier (or more like plain ignoring certain lines I wrote). Woops, I mentioned it. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">
I will not concede, but I will desist.
Please write an article and I will gladly post it at The Barrow-Downs. As I said earlier, I certainly don't consider myself canonical... heck, i'm barely knowledgeable. And I'm definitely one who will back down from an incorrect stance. But I just feel your arguement is shakier than mine (which you have shown is not as stable as I had first thought.. but just a little <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> ). Write an article disputing mine. I think people would love to read it. But don't write it attacking my theory... write it supporting yours. I'm looking for a point/counter-point, not a 'Jane, you ignorant slut.' (I hope that reference is understood...I'll explain if not. Old Saturday Night Live skit where a point/counter-point discussion is really just a name-calling session <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> )
I'm pretty proud we've kept civil.
Anyways.... are you interested in having your thoughts published?
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
Mister Underhill
10-03-2000, 02:57 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 74</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Dang, I thought I might convince you with that Hurin quote. Did you see my edit? I think it posted around the time you posted yours. Re: "the westering sun". Uh, I guess I could pull together all these arguments into an article. Of course I won't attack you (you fool!). I hope none of my posts took on an attacking tone, and I apologize if they did. What the heck. It's just a bunch of books. I'm not going to slam dunk anybody over it.
BTW, I get the SNL ref. I'm one of the codgers here on the board, don't forget.
</p>
The Barrow-Wight
10-03-2000, 03:09 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1399</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Sorry, Underhill.... you never took an offensive tone. This has been loads of fun. Write that article!
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
Mithadan
10-16-2000, 02:02 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 221</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Weighing in late on this one, long after the waters have already been muddied, but I found something on point (I think, this thread has been as pointy as a pincushion).
JRRT, discussing the issue of "evil cannot create" said this:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence (though here I am of course only using elements of old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls besides these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-Trolls, for which other origins are suggested. Of course (since inevitably my world is highly imperfect even on its own plane nor made wholly coherent - our Real World does not appear to be wholly coherent either; and I am actually not myself convinced that, though in every world on every plane all must ultimately be under the Will of God, even in ours there are not some 'tolerated' sub-creational counterfeits!) when you make Trolls speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'" <hr></blockquote>
Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien, No. 153.
Whew! Having disturbed this thread from a well-deserved rest, I shall don a mail coat and hide. Fire away!
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan</A> at: 10/16/00 4:05:54 pm
Mister Underhill
10-17-2000, 04:21 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 117</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Mithadan, I've come across this twice now, once while perusing "Letters" at a bookstore, and also partially reprinted in "Morgoth's Ring" -- but it doesn't seem to say much of anything conclusive. How do you see it fitting into this debate?
</p>
Mithadan
10-17-2000, 05:04 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 225</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Just to the extent that it establishes there were several varieties of Trolls, most of whom don't turn to stone (only stone trolls do).
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
Mister Underhill
10-17-2000, 08:13 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 118</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I don't know about that... I could just as easily interpret this as a reference to Olog-hai. The passage begins, "I don't know about Trolls." -- not "Stone-trolls". I've been intensively searching for information on this topic because -- despite the ever-growing time lag -- I am working on an article on this subject, and I can't find any place where Tolkien makes any meaningful distinction between the various "types" of trolls. To my mind, the labels cave-, hill-, mountain-, and etc. are as insignificant with regards to essential troll nature as the distinctions grey-, green-, wood-, etc. are to essential elvish nature. Elves are undying; that is their essential nature. Trolls turn to stone when exposed to the light of the sun; that's troll nature.
In fact, the only clear distinction he makes that I can see is that the old model Trolls couldn't endure the sun, while Sauron's improved Olog-hai could.
Since Tolkien doesn't make himself clear in the letter cited, we're back to square one.
</p>
Mithadan
10-17-2000, 08:47 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 229</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Don't necessarily agree we're back to square one. Read the whole letter to put the quote in context and read the rest of the paragraph. In context its interesting. There are other letters which briefly address Trolls also. I happened upon this one and knew there was a discussion going so I threw it in. I think the letter makes a clear distinction between Stone Trolls and all others.
BTW, I'm not even sure which side of the argument you're on. If you're trying to argue that Olog-Hai were susceptible to sun or simply not distinct from other trolls, check out Fellowship, Bk. 1, where Aragorn whacks one of Bilbo's trolls with a stick, just before they reach Rivendell. Aragorn clearly thinks that all trolls turn to stone in the sun (unless he doesn't expect Olog-Hai in the North, far away from Mordor). This is from someone that should know (Gandalf called him the greatest woodsman of the age, etc.).
Write the article! I'm looking forward to it. If you really need the text of the whole letter and can't get it, send me a Private Mail or just post and we'll work out a way to get it to you.
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
Mister Underhill
10-17-2000, 09:19 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 121</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
It's cool to have a fresh perspective in the thread. So far, I've held that all trolls other than Olog-hai, per Appendix F, are sun-susceptible. By inference, this means that most of the trolls that are encountered in the War of the Ring are Olog-hai, since we see some in daylight action and must assume that others marched for days to reach distant battle-fields. Ron pulled out a Silma reference to try to show that there were First Age sun-resistant trolls. I took exception, and that's where the end of the thread comes from.
Thanks for the tip re: Aragorn... I'll have to check that out.
The letter you mention, as I recall, goes more to the question of can evil create? and so on -- already shaky ground. Do you know the date of it? Since it's quoted in Morgoth's Ring, I sense that the letter was coming at a time when JRRT was being forced to examine the underpinnings of the mythology and was considering some major upheavals. Hence, I'd be wary of using it as a "clincher" for an argument when something like the Appendix F ref went through the editorial mill and the letter was just... well, a letter to some guy. Nevertheless, I would like to read it over again, since you bring it up. I don't have the funds to spring for "Letters" right now. I can "visit" it at the book store, but if you had an easy way to send it to me at hand, that would be even better.
I'm working through the article, but alas, other responsibilities and lack of access to a complete HoME reference library have limited my progress.
</p>
Mithadan
10-18-2000, 05:42 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 232</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Give me a day to wander through Letters for other references to trolls and I'll get back to you. The letter I quoted was from 1953 if I recall, so it was written almost concurrently or just after the Appendices. Have you looked at Peoples of Middle Earth re: trolls? That HoME volume includes materials edited out of the appendices due to lack of room, as well as earlier versions of what was published.
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
Mister Underhill
10-18-2000, 08:25 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 122</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I've cruised through both "Letters" and Volume XII searching for troll references and wasn't able to turn up much of substance -- though I don't own either and so haven't been able to read them thoroughly. But doesn't the finalization of the Appendices sometime in 1955 post-date this rather obscure letter?
I wasn't able to find anything in Volume XII re: Trolls that differed significantly from what's published. What did jump out at me was that (a) Tolkien had worked on the material for years and done his usual numerous drafts, and (b) he seemed really stressed out about what to include and how to include it given the space restrictions imposed on him. All this leads me to ask: why would he just toss off a virtually meaningless Olog-hai reference given the amount of sweating that he did over the Appendices?
Now I'm starting to preview my article a bit...
</p>
Mithadan
10-18-2000, 09:48 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 233</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Correction. The letter was from September 25, 1954. Work on the appendices began early 1954 (letters 143 [1-22-54], 144 [4-25-54]). The appendices appear to have been finished in early or mid-1955 (letter 160 [3-6-55] re: finishing remainder of appendices). So letter 153, quoted above, was prepared in the midst of JRRT's work on the appendices.
I don't think it was superceded, considering the chronology and the subject of the letter. It discussed theology/philosophy rather than history and is not really inconsistent with anything else which was published (other than what Aragorn said upon meeting the three troll "statues").
BTW, I use an "old" 1981 copy of Letters. The newly issued Edition or reprint is said to have a far better index.
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
Mister Underhill
10-18-2000, 11:29 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 124</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
I hate to seem like a dog with a bone... but I think that interpreting the letter to mean that "stone-trolls" are the only ones susceptible to sunlight and that there are several other varieties which are not contradicts what is written and common sense.
I looked at the Aragorn ref you mentioned. Aragorn doesn't mince words -- "You are forgetting not only your family history, but all you ever knew about trolls. It is broad daylight with a bright sun, and yet you come back trying to scare me with a tale of live trolls waiting for us in this glade!"
Appendix F also contradicts your interpretation. It says of the Olog-hai, "Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will fo Sauron held sway over them." The inescapable inference is that the older race couldn't endure the sun. The entry doesn't say anything about a different breed or breeds that didn't have this weakness. If, as you suggest, Tolkien implies that such breeds exist in his letter, why is there no mention at all of any of them -- <u>especially</u> considering that it was written concurrently with the final drafting of the Appendices? Furthermore, why would Sauron waste time and energy to develop the sun-resistant Olog-hai (and sun-resistant only when they were under the sway of his will) if "naturally" sun-resistant trolls already existed? Wouldn't that sort be easier to soup up?
Don't get me wrong. I dig the new input. But I'm still convinced that the prof didn't fumble on this one.
P.S. - The Aragorn reference is a gem! Have any more like that?
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 10/19/00 1:32:10 am
The Barrow-Wight
10-19-2000, 04:34 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1489</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Just a short note: Sauron may have developed the Olog-hai because the sun-resistant trolls of the first age (you know my thoughts on this already <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> ) had died out or been killed. I do not deny that Olog-hai were probably the only sun-resistant trolls of the 'modern' age. That's why Sauron had to make 'em. But I don't agree that they were the only sun-resistant trolls ever in existence.
Edits in Italics
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A> <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 10/19/00 12:26:33 pm
Mithadan
10-19-2000, 06:29 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 234</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
OK. Lets look at what the letter says, contrasted with what it seems to imply. The context of the letter is a discussion of: (1) whether evil could "create" a race such as orcs/trolls, concluding that evil cannot "create; and (2) whether orcs/trolls have souls.
The quote I provided begins with JRRT questioning whether Trolls have souls and ends with him noting that they speak which at least implies they do (and that if he had it to do over, maybe they would not speak). This is secondary to this discussion.
The letter clearly SAYS that William, Bert, et al. were Stone Trolls and that this variety becomes stone when exposed to sunlight. The letter also SAYS there were "other races of Trolls" whose origins are different from Stone Trolls.
The IMPLICATION is that Stone Trolls revert to stone when exposed to sunlight (perhaps because they are soulless constructs), and that the "other races" having other origins (and perhaps souls) do not revert to stone.
Now this is merely the implication of the letter. And as has been discussed in detail in this thread, there are other quotes from LoTR and Silm. which could be interpreted to support either position. This is probably one of those details which cannot be authoritatively resolved. JRRT claimed that every word he used was carefully considered. But I would point out that JRRT evolved the Silm over a period of 50 years and wrote LoTR during the span of 15 years, but appears to have written the appendices in a very short time.
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
Mister Underhill
10-19-2000, 08:53 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 125</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Hey Kittle, the Troll Thread is back!
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "It's alive! It's alive!"<hr></blockquote>
I'm curious about your post, though... so are you saying that the trolls in daylight action (or implied daylight travel) in LotR are Olog-hai? I could swear your article posited the same argument that Mithadan is defending now -- that there were several varieties of trolls, some of which were "naturally" sun-resistant. P.S. -- working on that article as quickly as time and access to resources allows. I've brought more ammo to the table on the Húrin argument...
Mithadan, you're right that we may never be able to authoritatively solve this one. Undoubtedly that's the reason there are over seventy (!) posts in the thread. And it's true that the letter only implies and does not state clearly. But if reading it one way (several varieties of trolls, only one of them sun-sensitive) conflicts with other sources -- the Appendix F ref, Aragorn's statement, even the Hobbit troll scene where it says "...trolls, as you probably know, must be underground before dawn, or they go back to the stuff of the mountains they are made of, and never move again." -- and reading it another ("other sorts of trolls and "different origins", as references to Olog-hai") does not, shouldn't the reading which doesn't conflict be the preferred one?
In Volume XII, CT says that studying the papers, it was clear to him that his father was aware that there would be need of Appendices years ahead of time. I don't have the exact quote here in front of me, because I don't have the book. It seems clear he worked on them for years at least, though granted, there's quite a bit of wide-ranging material in them. But just the fact that he decided to include a behind the scenes reference to Sauron going to the trouble of breeding (conditionally) sun-resistant trolls seems to imply that there were not naturally occuring sun-resistors.
And if we're going to use length of time worked upon as an index of accuracy... how long did it take him to dash off that letter? A day? An afternoon?
</p>
Mithadan
10-19-2000, 10:18 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 236</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Who knows their trolls?
Funny thing is I don't really have a position on this issue. I didn't even read the thread beyond the first post or two initially. As a result, I can (and did) argue both sides. Thinking about it, the letter likely reflects a bit of JRRT's annoyance at what he perceives to be an imperfection in his work, i.e. Trolls are animated, soulless constructs but they can talk and some walk beneath the sun. So he puts on a "patch" -- some Trolls are not constructs. This fits with the Olog-Hai. How do you interbreed a man (or whatever) with a rock? I'm kind of thinking this through as I type. In balance, I lean, but not strongly, towards Ron's view based upon logic and the letter.
On the other hand, I never liked the "animated construct" idea as a component of JRRT's mythos. Animated by what? If only the will of Morgoth or Sauron, don't they merely stop working when their master isn't around or isn't thinking about them? Wait! Maybe that's why they turn to stone, Sauron's thought doesn't penetrate or is occluded by bright sun so they revert to their original material from which they can't be revived.
Enough. I'm getting drawn in and I don't want to be.
--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>
The Barrow-Wight
10-19-2000, 10:31 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1493</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
My arguments always said that there were sun-resistant trolls prior to the Olog-hai, thus denying that the trolls in the War of the Ring MUST have been Olog-hai. They probably were.... but I think there is a historical precedence showing that they possibly weren't.
Now that I think of it, the day-walking trolls of the Third Age may quite likely have been Olog-hai. Why else would Sauron have bothered to make them? But it still doesn't mean they were the first day trolls.
I have edited my post above to reflect what I was meaning to say.
The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>
Mister Underhill
10-20-2000, 08:31 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 130</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?
Article forthcoming....
</p>
Alkanoonion
10-30-2002, 09:16 PM
Article forthcoming....
What an interesting discussion I thought that others might also enjoy revisiting or reading for the first time as much as I did. BTW did I miss the Article Forthcoming?
Man-of-the-Wold
11-02-2002, 02:00 PM
Oh My, Oh My, the Barrow-Wight Comes Alive.
In any case, I would like to step back. Basic facts about Trolls, some indisputable, some my spin:
1. Bred in mockery of Ents.
2. Probably like Ents, in that they are never really numerous, possibly never exceeding more than few thousand and not multiplying much from the First Age of Sun onwards.
3. But probably much more plentiful in the Ages of Twilight before Sunlight as we would know it.
4. Females? Possibly never had them, in that they are (re-)produced somewhat spontaneously or by dark powers such as Morgoth, Sauron or Angmar (hence their perponderance in the Ettenmoors).
5. Essentially, do not die naturally, but may be slain, die through clumsiness, or by exposure to sunlight, w/ or w/o SPF 15.
6. I don't see Trolls being made with any breeding through Ents, Men or Orcs, but rather they were ALL derived from stone in combination with the animation of some ancient creature or monster.
7. They are very much like Ents in that they vary tremendously from individual to individual, perhaps based on geologic forms and rock types, as opposed to the tree species that define Ent-persons. This then would give rise to a basic typology among observers, because Trolls tended to associate with like kinds and kill each other, directing greater hostility at each other the greater the physical differences. Therefore, I posit that much of the categories in the books arise from very loosely based information. Again, I doubt that Middle-Earth had many “Troll-ologists.”
Similarly, I would contend that no Troll could "naturally" endure the sunlight. In the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, Morgoth undoubtedly could have darkened the sky much as Sauron did for his battles, and in addition to that, Morgoth or even Gothmog may have been able to exercise a power over certain contingencies of Trolls that allowed them to avoid turning to stone in such partial sunlight.
The Olog-Hai represent perhaps Sauron's success much later at perfecting and standardizing this feat, so that certain Trolls were created that could regularly roam and harass folks during the daytime in the outskirts of Dol Guldor and the Mordor (probably under less than clear, bright sunlight), if the Eye's will was bent to some degree on their activity.
I think the term Olog-Hai as offered in the LotR Appendix represents a general observation by the Wise regarding this development, and that this Black Speech term was perhaps learned from yells and shouts at clashes in Ithilien or Mirkwood, at which Men or Wood Elves fought with Orcs in league with such Trolls. Not unlike Aragorn's mock parley with the self-aggrandizing Uruk-Hai at the Hornburg.
Whether these Olog-Hai trolls were significantly different in other ways from other trolls (past or present) or notably similar to one another seems to be unknown, except that they tended to be on the large size even for trolls.
But I would say that references like Hill-Troll and Mountain-Troll do not necessarily differentiate an Olog-Hai from any other such trolls, and may represent a casual overlay of common terminology that was applicable to Olog-Hai groups, as well nocturnally restricted trolls, depending on general features (coloration, body shape, etc.) and the terrain of the location where they were encountered. Also, the hammering by Grond took place prior to dawn.
In the course of the LotR, I think Tolkien is trying to avoid giving us too precise of a system for categorizing trolls or any other evil creature. Rather, he is giving us a flavor of how everyday Men, Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, and so forth labeled and reacted to these creatures, in a way that is not necessarily consistent, except that it is clouded by natural fear and legend/rumor.
[Similarly, we find "Uruk-Hai" used in reference to developments out of Sauron's fastnesses, as well as breeding efforts by Saruman, such that it is hard to say who steals, uses or expands on whose evil work, not to mention the jumble of terms about half-orcs, goblin-men, hobgoblins and so forth, which are never at all clarified or fully distinguished from Uruk-Hai, except perhaps in HoME. I would also note how the chiefs of the Orc squads from Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul that Sam overhears seem to consider themselves to be Uruk-Hai, but they hark back to some time that they personally remember, which seems to be none other than the Dark Age when Sauron held sway over most of Middle-Earth. So, that even though the term Uruk-Hai is applied to large, non-daylight challenged Orcs of the late Third Age, they may have been based on types going back much farther in time. Perhaps, Sauron took existing orcs and endowed them with special powers, that then Saruman enhanced with or used as part of breeding experiments with men and women. There may have Uruk-Hai, and then there were Uruk-Hai. Notably, Grishnakh is large if squat, but also of much greater cunning and rank in the greater scheme of things than Saruman’s group of seemingly new-sprung Uruk-Hai]
Still, I think as a matter of physical form and location, terms like Cave-Troll, Hill-Troll, Mountain-Troll and Stone-Troll (who may have been inexplicitly more intelligent than other trolls, but especially prone to turn to Stone with hardly a glimmer of morning sunlight), represent relatively distinct groups in the Third Age, and towards the end of that era some of them could (in certain cases East of Anduin) have been Olog-Hai's, too.
There is also reference to Snow-Trolls in the case Helm of the Mark, such that that may have meant an extinct group that frequented the White Mountains during and after the Second Age, and though perhaps not mentioned explicitly, there could have been cliff trolls, river trolls and with corresponding appearances and lairs.
[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]
Mauthak the Blood-Axe
07-24-2003, 03:38 PM
just a couple quick questions....see if anyone can help.....if orcs are mockeries of elves/men and trolls are mockeries of ents, then wouldn't trolls be more tree-like? Orcs seem quite mannish (or elvish) also if there is Olog-Hai, what are the trolls cross bred with? If Uruk-Hais are orcs bred with men etc. Just some wonderings
lindil
07-25-2003, 09:58 AM
I wish to add a few footnotes to this venerable and enlightening thread:
Man of the Wold: posted many months back
Whether these Olog-Hai trolls were significantly different in other ways from other trolls (past or present) or notably similar to one another seems to be unknown, except that they tended to be on the large size even for trolls.
In the App. F a mention of the Olog-Hai being unusually 'cunning'. and that they were previously unseen, i,e, a new tyoe of troll. It also list a few other attributes that set them apart.
Mauthuk posted:
just a couple quick questions....see if anyone can help.....if orcs are mockeries of elves/men and trolls are mockeries of ents, then wouldn't trolls be more tree-like? Orcs seem quite mannish (or elvish) also if there is Olog-Hai, what are the trolls cross bred with? If Uruk-Hais are orcs bred with men etc. Just some wonderings
I think the early tendency for Tolkienists to take Treebeard at his word have been dampned by JRRT's Letters [not sure of the # offhand] wherein he says Treebeard 'was not one of the wise' meaning, I take it, he was not speaking with Authoritative knowledge derived from the Ainur, and that his Troll/Ent parallel may have been 'common wisdom' or speculation, but was not the truth of it. JRRT says this flatly about the elves-->orcs in HoM-E X 'Myths Transformed' sectinon, and then goes on to back -pedal.
We do not know, and JRRT himself seemingly gave up at ever reaching a decisive answer for ORc [and thus by exstension] Troll origins.
As for what was the extra genetic ingredients for the Olog-Hai?
I would speculate either men or Uruk-Hai. probably the latter. But it is only my opinion, and not based on a shred of supprtable text.
----
Also in case anyone was wondering where Mr. Underhill's magnum opus is see the articles link at the bottum of every [?] forum page, or go to the www.Barrowdowns.com (http://www.Barrowdowns.com) page and find the link.
I believe it is called 'Olog-Hai fidelity'.
As a final note, I apologize to Underhill for missing this [along w/ so many other greath threads] as I had my nose firmly buried in the Silm project/Forum at the time.
I would have encouraged him abit, by siding with his reading of the evidence.
An awesome thread overall, and may all 'youngins' take note at the civility, scholarship, persistence and vigour!
Amazing what lurks neath nearly every line in the texts... smilies/cool.gif
ps - as far as I know we are still in the dark as to the contents of the unpublished section of the Nirnaeth which CJRT [and Underhill] refer to. It may or may not contain a first age reference to Trolls.
If I understand all of this aright, I think Mr. Underhill has forever earned a place in the realm of Barrow-Downs scholarship with his research to show we, as of yet have no first or second age writings by JRRT that mention Trolls. Yes they are mentioned as having existed earlier in App. F, but we only see them in a dubious Silmarillion passage. My personal guess is that the Troll insertion is a result of a note or slip of paper with something like 'Trolls slain by hurin in Nirnaeth' or somesuch.
I give CJRT the benefit of the doubt that he would not create something whole cloth unless the need was truly there, as in the case of the Ruin of Doriath. However it would of course be nice to have some dare I use the word - 'closure'.
[ July 26, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
vBulletin® v3.8.9 Beta 4, Copyright ©2000-2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.