The Kings of Numenor

[Tar Palantir]

I was thinking, the kings of Numenor were decendents of Earendil so surly they could choose, like Elrond and Elros, whether to be mortal or immortal. Just a thought.

[Mithadan]

You point out an interesting problem with JRRT's "solution" to the half-elven issue. His solution was apparently that the half-elven (peredhil) have the choice of the fate of man or that of elves but once the choice to join the race of men is made, the descendants no longer can change their mind. The apparent inconsistency is on the other side of the line. Arwen and her brothers were apparently given the choice also even though Elrond chose to be counted among the elves.

Why half-elven descendants on the the elven side of the line have the right to choose while half-elven descendants on the Mannish side do not is unclear. Thoughts anyone?

[Elrian]

That option really didn't make sense though,
First because Elronds choice to be counted among the Elves, and a marriage to an Elven would have made his children more than 75% Elven considering, that Elrond himself was more than 50% Elven in the first place, Tuor being truly Half Elven and Elwing being almost 75% Elven, Almost 25%Edain, and some Maia. Maybe because Elrond chose to remain in Middle Earth? smilies/cool.gif

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Tar Elenion]

But that was not his solution. His solution was that anyone with any mortal blood was accorded the fate of Man, unless granted other Doom by Manwe. Thus the inconsistancy is why Elrond's children were allowed a choice, not why Elros children were not.

[obloquy]

After choosing mortality, would not then the subject be mortal? And once mortal, would he not then only be able to have mortal offspring, unless his wife renews the Elvish blood in the line? However, if the subject chooses the fate of the Elves, his children would remain "partially immortal", if I may put it so. They would thus also be given the choice of fates, and the line would continue to be given this choice until one chose mortality and ended the Elvish immortality running in their veins.

At least that's how I see it.

[HerenIstarion]

His solution was apparently that the half-elven (peredhil) have the choice of the fate of man or that of elves but once the choice to join the race of men is made, the descendants no longer can change their mind.

yet I always had a notion that Elrond choice, though made at the same time as Elros became mortal, was not somehow complete. He still had to choose in the end of the third age whether to leave ME or stay there, so Arwen's and Elladan and Elrohir's choices were to be made contemporarily with his. Peredhil's descendants receive their sires' choice so to say, ready made, they are born to it, yet Elrond's children were already grown up when their father finally had to choose. It was somehow unjust to imply Elrond's choice on fully developped personalities as his children were. this being the first point

Another point is that without this freedom of choice (at least in Arwen's case) the reunion of Ainu-Elda-Human blood in Aragorn's family would have been impossible, therefore his (and his line's) right to be "the King of all mankind" would have been doubtful, being one sided only. thing of worth to make exception, if exception was needed in the case.

than there is Tolkien's affiction to sacral numbers (at least of christian mythos). Arwen and Aragorn form third union of elves and men. wich is also impossible without Arwen's freedom of choice.

H-I said smilies/smile.gif

[Elrian]

Yes But if Elrond had chose to go into the West after making his chioce would his children still have been given a choice?
Arwen could have married Aragorn even without the choice on her though. smilies/smile.gif

[Orald]

I never really like that idea of Arwen and Aragorn being the third marriage of eldar and man. Because Arwen isn't really even an elf as has been pointed out.

It seems Elrond already new he would go into the West eventually, so in all likelyhood it is as if his children would have been given a choice anyway. But what do I know?

[HerenIstarion]

I never really like that idea of Arwen and Aragorn being the third marriage of eldar and man

hm, I don't recall mentioning marriage of eldar and man at all, I said reunion of elda-ainu-human blood. If we take it so far, nor Aragorn was purely human, having the same blood as Arwen in his veins, percentage of each part being different though. Yet one can not call it otherwise than that, for being and elda or human is not dependent on the purity of blood only, yet rather on the fate applied to it. Earendil and Elwing were human mostly (by blood).

[HerenIstarion]

So before marriage Arwen was presumebly elf (whatever blood in her veins) adn after definetely human (still whatever blood in her veins). You can not go counting percents of blood and apply the name of the race by it. What will you do with Imrahil in that case, with all tose misty hints about his origins? Some of the orcs too may be called human than, don't you think? Or Boldog would be called a Maia rather than Orc?

[HerenIstarion]

I don't like editing - it makes ugly lines, so I'm adding the new one. additional point:

One even can exxagerate up to not counting blood at all, for biologically eldar and men have same hroar. (though changing with the time becousa of difference of indwelling fear)

[Elrian]

Originally posted by HerenIstarion:
<STRONG>So before marriage Arwen was presumebly elf (whatever blood in her veins) adn after definetely human (still whatever blood in her veins). You can not go counting percents of blood and apply the name of the race by it. What will you do with Imrahil in that case, with all tose misty hints about his origins? Some of the orcs too may be called human than, don't you think? Or Boldog would be called a Maia rather than Orc?</STRONG>

Imrahil's Elven blood came from quite a few generations prior to his birth, The percentagew would have been small. Elwing's mother was an Elf. I've never seen a Boldog in the books though. The blood of orcs and Maia were never mixed to my knowledge
smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Orald]

I am not saying that it shouldn't have been have been the third marriage of elda and man because of impurities, but because Arwen isn't an elda, let alone an elf to begin with. I remember a discussion on Arwen's elfishness before Elrond left for the West and I thought a consensus was reached that at no time was Arwen truly an elf or a human, until her final decision when she became human.

[HerenIstarion]

Good point Durelen, but due to her unhuman longivity before the choice was made she was rather closer to elves.

[Mithadan]

Elrian, Boldog is found in HoME 3, Lays of Beleriand, and there may be references in other HoME volumes. Boldog was an "orc" captain who purportedly was either a Maia "clothed" as an orc, the result of an orc-Maia union or an orc body inhabited by a Maia spirit. The story itself, while somewhat undeveloped, is interesting. Boldog was a great captain who led orc forces with great success. At the time of Beren and Luthien's quest, Boldog was sent with a force of orcs to penetrate Doriath and kidnap Luthien, whose legendary beauty had reached Morgoth's ears. Boldog and his force were slain by warriors from Doriath. But this tale goes far in explaining Morgoth's interest in Luthien and why he did not slay or imprison Beren and Luthien out of hand.

[Tar Elenion]

Arwen was not an Elf (see Letter 345 for JRRT say this specifically). She was a Peredhel as was her father and grandparents on her fathers side (etc). Until she made her choice she merely lived with the 'youth of the Eldar' (see App. A). Even after she made her Choice she was not a Man any more than she was an Elf before. She remained a Peredhel, whose ultimate fate was that of mortals.

The only way any of those with mixed blood were granted a Choice was if Manwe allowed it (or granted some other Doom). Otherwise they had the fate of Men.

[Elrian]

Originally posted by Mithadan:
<STRONG>Elrian, Boldog is found in HoME 3, Lays of Beleriand, and there may be references in other HoME volumes. Boldog was an "orc" captain who purportedly was either a Maia "clothed" as an orc, the result of an orc-Maia union or an orc body inhabited by a Maia spirit. The story itself, while somewhat undeveloped, is interesting. Boldog was a great captain who led orc forces with great success. At the time of Beren and Luthien's quest, Boldog was sent with a force of orcs to penetrate Doriath and kidnap Luthien, whose legendary beauty had reached Morgoth's ears. Boldog and his force were slain by warriors from Doriath. But this tale goes far in explaining Morgoth's interest in Luthien and why he did not slay or imprison Beren and Luthien out of hand.</STRONG>

Thanks Mithadan.

[HerenIstarion]

The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of
death, which cometh to Men from Iluvatar, but in the matter
of the Halfelven Iluvatar gave them judgement. And this they
judged: choice should be given to the brethren. And Elrond
chose to remain with the Firstborn, and to him the life of the
Firstborn was given, and yet a grace was added, that choice was
never annulled, and while the world lasted he might return, if he
would, to mortal men, and die.

italics added by me
History of ME, vol IX Sauron Defeated, Drowning of Anadune

[Tar Elenion]

This version of Elrond's Choice was later abandoned if I am not mistaken.

[Voronwe]

It is also, as Christopher Tolkien points out, at odds with the statement in the Appendix to LotR the the Halfelven were given an 'irrevocable choice' at the end of the first age.

-Voronwe.

[HerenIstarion]

I know, yet it gives more logical basis to Arwen's freedom of choice (+ above given three other reasons)

[Earendilyon]

I always considered Arwen (and also Elladan and Elrohir) to be fully an Elf. Elrond choose to be an Elf, his wife was, so his children too. That's why Arwen's marriage to Aragorn is counted as the third union between Elf and Man.

[Tar Elenion]

Tolkien said she was not an Elf (see my above post for citation).

[Earendilyon]

What did he know about it anyway? smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/wink.gif

[Snowdog]

Elros chose to be Edain and the Mortal way, so all this offspring were mortal with no choice, but were blessed with extended years.
Elrond chose to be Eldar, and it was given to his offspring, Elladan, Elrohir, & Arwen, the same choice. from what we know, it extended no further down the bloodline since we don't know if the sons of Elrond ever got married, and Arwen wed a mortal and freely gave up her immortality. Hence their kids were mortals blessed with long life. I would stick with the Appendix vs anything Christopher Tolkien put out.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Not quite. Only Elrond and Elros were allowed to choose to which kindred they'd belong. The fate of Elrond's children was decided by whether they chose to go with him into the West or remain in Middle-earth. I've gone into this in more detail here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=52859&postcount=26).

[Snowdog]

The fate of Elrond's children was decided by whether they chose to go with him into the West or remain in Middle-earth. Which gives them the choice does it not? ;)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

It gives them a choice, but it's not the same one that Elrond and Elros were given. Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen can go with Elrond beyond the circles of the world or remain in Middle-earth and live a mortal life. Where they are determines what happens to them, whereas Elrond had the fate of the Elves wherever he was, just as Elros was mortal wherever he happened to be living.

[Findegil]

Posted by The Squatter of Amon RûdhElladan, Elrohir and Arwen can go with Elrond beyond the circles of the world or remain in Middle-earth and live a mortal life. That what is said in the Appendix A and in Of the rings of power and the third age, but in one of the Letters JRR Tolkien revaled that he thought that Elladan and Elrohir had delaied their choice. If the brethern could do that, than the diverence between their choice and the one of Elrond and Elros is not really significant.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Osse]

I am now a bit confused... (and i need clarification... SQUATTER!)

Are the children of Elrond able to live the life of the Eldar only when around Elrond? Is it the physical movement away from Elrond that causes them to become truly mortal, or the idea of the movement? Or for that matter, has it been decided whether they actually do live an immortal life?? These are vastly important thing to verify before actually confronting the issue of the choices they do or do not make! For example, I was always under the impression that the choice made by Elros and Elrond was doubly important... it wasn't just themselves they were choosing for, but their bloodlines! Therefore, it wasn't the fact that Arwen didn't pass into the West with her dad that caused her to lose her immortality, but was her choice to wed a mortal and die with him. Is it written how the twins fared up? One can only assume that they either went Westwards with their father in the party that Frodo departed in, or tarried in Middle Earth, and were either destroyed or lived on until the end of the Elves in some other kingdom. It is simply put out...

Line of Elros = mortal
Line of Elrond = immortal

I dont' think those in either house had any choice in the matter!!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The letter alluded to above is #153 (September 1954), which is a draft. In it Tolkien says [Elrond's] children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices... The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

I think that the dating of this letter at a time when the appendices were still unpublished and its status as an unsent draft should make us cautious about accepting what it has to say without question. It does seem to confirm, though, that physically going with Elrond or remaining behind did not constitute a choice. The decision would seem to be a moral one that was permanently binding once made, but which could be postponed albeit not indefinitely. However, as Findegil pointed out, and as the title of my last post here implies, this makes very little appreciable difference to the choice itself and leaves me admitting freely to the shameless splitting of hairs. Like Elrond and Elros, Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir are choosing the fate of one race or the other. I do think, though, that the wording of this letter implies an imminent deadline. I doubt that the decision could be postponed for very long.