WWLXXI: Something in the Night

[Gwathagor]

Night washed over the city like a sheet of oil across the street. Doors shut, bedroom lights went out, streetlights turned on. In the distance, a train whistle whined mournfully, then faded away. All was still, silent. Then, shadows. Shadows of young people, slipping through doorways, through the window, in and out of the streetlights, down the alleyways, down the streets. Through the hollow bones of the city they moved, like ghosts, like spirits waiting to be born.

A car engine roared, headlights flicked on. As if in answer, engines awoke all over the city, cars and motorcycles, each one a different voice, each one a holy escape. They were all there, the night children, the street people. Killer Joe, the Rat, the Barefoot Girl, the Circus Boy, Sonny, Hazy Davy, Kitty, the Ragamuffin Gunner, and many, many more besides. All of them searching, hoping, reaching out into a night full of promise and potential. A night for dreaming.

And off into this night they sped, out into the darkness on the edge of town, two by two, each pair searching for there something they alone would recognize. Hope. Life. Love. Solitude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyB-L4Jb0m4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGU0z1DGO8E

And yet...all was not well. There were some that saw this dream and did not understand it. Some who hated it. Some who rode alongside their companions, silently plotting how they might strike down this dream while it was yet being born. But, they said nothing and their dark wishes, their anger and ill-will, were as yet nothing more than something in the night.

***
Wolves and lovers, PM. Seer, send a dream pick.


The Living
Johnny 99 - Nogrod
City Dude - Inziladun
Jimmy the Saint - Morsul
Gypsy Biker - Shasta
Bad Scooter - Isabellkya
Wild Billy - Glirdan
Mary - Rikae
Crazy Janey - Alonariel
Boardwalk Sandy - Sally
Rosalita - Loslote
Jersey Girl - Wilwarin
Wendy - Lariren

The Dead
Nobody yet.

[Gwathagor]

The hot sun of late July rose quickly into the morning sky. It was early, and already the heat-waves were rippling across the black pavement downtown, creating mirages at the end of every street. Neon signs flashed on. Blinds went up. A garage door opened with a bang.

Still tired from the night before, young people began to appear on the streets among the growing crowds. Some clocked in for work. Some danced along the boardwalk, past the circus, past the arcades. Some ducked the cops. Some hid out in cool alleys, waiting for the moon to rise again, when they would meet their friends and lovers in secret rendezvous.

The noises rose to a steady hum: the twinkling music of the merry-go-round, the blaring car horns, the shouts of busy people, a clamor that would continue until the darkness came again. To some, the sound of so many and so much was music to thrive upon. To others, it was strangling and oppressive. To all, it was the sound of the city.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts3jHqupTxI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BktOzc8m93U)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAvolRT3sX4

The Day had begun.

***
Post away, everybody.

The Living
Johnny 99 - Nogrod
City Dude - Inziladun
Jimmy the Saint - Morsul
Gypsy Biker - Shasta
Bad Scooter - Isabellkya
Wild Billy - Glirdan
Mary - Rikae
Crazy Janey - Alonariel
Boardwalk Sandy - Sally
Rosalita - Loslote
Jersey Girl - Wilwarin
Wendy - Lariren

The Dead
Nobody yet.

[alonariel]

Janey found herself humming the melody of a tune she couldn’t ever remember hearing before. But this was how things went the morning after - you’d remember things you’d never known before and forget things you’d known your entire life. She was sure the partying had something to do with it, toying with her memory like it was silly putty in the hands of a toddler. She didn’t mind it all that much - her mission man would find her before dusk and then she’d be breathing colors, sighing music again.

Until then...she needed something to pass away the daylight hours. The town was slowly waking up, wheezing it’s way to life after the spectacles of the night before. She wound her way past dark alleys - old familiar friends - towards the tinkering, innocent sounds of a merry-go-round a few blocks ahead. She spotted Wendy, another old friend - a kind one, at that - and waved to the girl.

“You survive the night unscathed, hun?” Janey asked her, pausing at a crosswalk to let a slew of early morning commuters fly past her. The cold wind whipped her more awake than the pain of the hangover from the night before.

“Don’t believe I did...” Janey laughed to herself.

[Glirdan]

Billy awoke on the bench in the park...nothing out of the ordinary there...although he would have much preferred to have slept in his car, but who knows where it was parked this time.

Billy sat up and stretched, feeling the bones in his spine crack, which would have felt wonderful any other day had he not been up all night. He slowly stood up, trying to gain his bearings but noticed that his vision was still cloudy....A sign that he was still drunk.

This was going to be an interesting Day.

[Loslote]

*shrugs* I really have no Bruce Springsteen knowledge, so IC posting is gonna be slim for me. The best I can do is this, which kinda fits the music theme, though by a different original singer:

This One's For the Wolves

This one's for everyone who's playing werewolf
This game can be so rough, can be so mean
Hold onto, on to your Innocence
Stand your ground when everyone's bandwagoning

This one's for the game

This is for all you wolves in Gwathagor's game
In a little wolf-pack, just trying to get by
Living on, on dreams and Night kills
Wondering where this game is gonna go

This one's for the wolves
Who've ever had a packmate killed
Who've died because a Seer dreamed
We'll lynch you everytime
This one's for the wolves
Who lie without holding back
Who hunt with everything they have
All throughout the game
This one's for the wolves

This is for all you ordos without a role
Throwing votes against suspected wolves
Every bad, bad vote that you make
Makes you seem a wolf yourself

This one's for the wolves
Who've ever had a packmate killed
Who've died because a Seer dreamed
We'll lynch you every time
This one's for the wolves
Who lie without holding back
Who hunt with everything they have
All throughout the game
This one's for the wolves

Yeah, there's also Gifteds (and lovers)
From Seer to Hunter

This one's for the wolves
Who've ever had a packmate killed
Who've died because a Seer dreamed
We'll lynch you everytime
This one's for the wolves
Who lie without holding back
Who hunt with everything they have
All throughout the game
This one's for the wolves
Yeah, this one's for the wolves

[Isabellkya]

Bad Scooter's only knowledge of this material is self, and performing The River in sign language in the third grade..

Are you trying to say you are a wolf, Loslote? xD

[Loslote]

Are you trying to say you are a wolf, Loslote? xD

Nonsense. If I was, I wouldn't have made it so hard to tell. ;)

Seriously, though, I wrote that three days or so before the game started.

EDIT: Oh! 500th post! *cheers*

[Loslote]

Okay, since this is starting to bore me (aka, the nothingness) and I'm going to have to leave soon (because it's late, there's a really bad wind storm and the power's flickering so I keep losing Internet), here's something to hopefully get people talking.

Morsul is a wolf because Morsul is always a wolf.

Alona and Glirdan are wolves because they posted IC.

Izzy is a wolf because she posted OOC.

Sally is a wolf because she has not made me laugh once this entire game yet.

Nerwen is a wolf because she's employing the only foolproof way of not getting lynched - not playing. Evil!

Okay, defend yourselves. I want plenty of posts when I get back in the morning, because I actually have time this game to read stuffs.

[Morsul the Dark]

Morsul is a wolf because Morsul is always a wolf.

I'd suspect me too if I'd posted a bunch of songs... If history tells us anything it's verse writers tend towards evil or lovers... hmmm

[Morsul the Dark]

The Living
Johnny 99 - Nogrod
City Dude - Inziladun
Jimmy the Saint - Morsul
Gypsy Biker - Shasta
Bad Scooter - Isabellkya
Wild Billy - Glirdan
Mary - Rikae
Crazy Janey - Alonariel
Boardwalk Sandy - Sally
Rosalita - Loslote
Jersey Girl - Wilwarin
Wendy - Lariren

Firstly I'll say I know absolutely Nothing about Bruce Springstein's music... or music in general, I listen to Stand Up comedy or Talk Radio. So stand in amazement that know Who Bruce is at all.

Seondly These are the people playing and what I expect to see from them.

Nogrod: Like me is criticized for his Logic which can o sideways and backways longways and any other way. It makes sense to him no one else though, like me.

Inzil: Tends to be fairly quiet and calculating a trait always exhibited by him though so his style escapes attention Or attracts it depending on the People's collective mood.

Morsul: to pull an old quote from Lottie, I'm "generally confused and confusing" once again as with Nogrod I understand my logic. I'm also prone to when short on time taking on the opinions of others, a trait taken advantage of last game.

Shasta: Generally Quiet... has strange voting habits... but usually time constrained.

Wilwa: tough call only played two games first the Mac game which consisted of many false reveals, so not Ideal for observing styles the other she couldn't do much.

Sally: Random... and active, yet not active. Frankly If I knew her in person she fit in with my friends excellently... however it tends to make her suspicious in WW...

Everyone else I just haven't played with you enough or just failed to glean any sort of playing style:

Isabellkya
Glirdan
Rikae
Alonariel
Loslote
Lariren

This list is not a guilty/not guilty list merely what I'm expecting to see...

[Morsul the Dark]

This was going to be an interesting Day.

Billy was wrong:rolleyes:

Have to go soon won't be back until Much later...

[Inziladun]

Now Cat knows his Kitty's been untrue
And that she left him for a city dude
But she's so soft, she's so blue
When he looks into her eyes
He just sits back and sighs
Ooh, what can I do, ooh, what can I do?

Poetry, innit? ;)
Not much going on yet, to say the least.

I'd suspect me too if I'd posted a bunch of songs... If history tells us anything it's verse writers tend towards evil or lovers... hmmm

Well, I don't know about all of that, but I think it's safe to say Lottie is indeed a Lover. What do you mean about 'suspecting you if you'd posted songs'? You don't like Lottie's song?

[Nogrod]

Johnny 99 woke up from the backseat of his car only to realise his girl had slipped away to the awakening hush and buzz of the street. He was parked in front of the Tip Top club - and it was hot inside the car. He thought there was something he should remember, but he didn't.

His tongue felt like sandpaper in his mouth and the bells tolling inside his head freaked him out. There had to be something to drink... he grasped the leg-room of the backseat only to hit at the barrell of a shotgun. Touching the cold metal brought dizzy images from the last night... Oh no... He started remembering things.

They had oozed 'n boozed around. There was some shooting somewhere and somethin' about cops. He remembered driving the street wavin' his gun around and threatenin' to blow his top. Uh oh... How on earth could he pay for the mortgages? He was in a big mess for all he knew.

Slowly getting up he reached for the frontseats to find anything to drink. There were two bottles, gin and wine! Warmed in the morning sun. Pretty no... well maybe just a shot to wake up the engines...

With the boost from Tangueray he managed to get out of his car to look at the streets afresh. There was still something he had to remember, he was sure there was something.

Walkin down the Tenth Avenue looking for a suitable grocery to lift a can of cold beer he started remembering bits and pieces. There had been talk of people, other than judge Brown or auto manufactory-owners who moved their plants to China, who wanted to crush dreams and lives. There was a rumour of evil on them, chasing them from inside in the night.

He stole away with a pack of beer from Moes' running fast enough for old Frederick. Sitting finally to the bench at Southside Park and opening the first can he finally started thinking more clearly.

His first clear thought was: where is everyone? He had seen City Dude and Johnny the Saint talking about poetry in the corner of Tenth and the Park, but that was little. Where is my girl?

His second clear thought was: OMG, I'm gonna have to get that shotgun. We might need it toDay. There was sudden tremble that shook his body. Hangover and fear of the unknown aren't a nice combination... not a night but "a day of the lizards" was taking hold of him. He shook his head and opened a second can of beer.

That lead to his third clear thought: We'll need to gather together, now under daylight and general fuzz. And if no one looks like guilty enough, we'll hunt the creeps who try to sneak in the shadows as one darn searchin'party this city ain't seen since the witch hunts...

This led to his fourth clear thought: Where is my girl? Which was actually just a repetition.

From somewhere he could hear Rosalita singing. Emptying the third can he took a nap, sliding slowly into deep sleep on the bench with the melody Rosalita had sang repeating and repeating itself in his mind...

[wilwarin538]

So I won't try the whole IC thing because I suck at RPG and know nothing about Springstein, haha.

This game will definitely be interesting. Most games have 2 teams, the wolves and the village, this game has those same 2 teams but then also all these little mini teams of Lovers. It changes the entire dynamic of the game and so we can't go into this the way we normally would. The goal is the same, kill the wolves, but we can't forget that these wolves have lovers as well so this changes the goals of the wolves and the dynamics of how the wolves' lovers play as well. It makes everything way different then what we're used to, and we have to all keep that in mind.

Wow, this whole thing will get confusing. :rolleyes:

x'ed with Nog

[satansaloser2005]

What Wilwa said. Heh.


Anyway, Lottie's an innocent because she did a shiny parody (which I was halfway through before I realized I was humming with it lol) and Shasta's cheating on me apparently so he and his precious must be wolves. *nods* Now, to find the other one. Oh, of course! Lottie's right. It must be Nerwen!


Okay, folks, I've discovered the three wolves. We can all go home now. ^_^

[Nogrod]

Okay, folks, I've discovered the three wolves. We can all go home now. ^_^Okay, who's got the booze? I have the shotgun. So let's just wrap it and ride the cars into the sunset then. :cool:


To be a bit more serious, I think Wilwa raises a good point about the different dynamics this time around. But do we face three baddies as a team and their lovers attached to them individually (where lovers would be of secondary interest to the wolves), three pairs of baddies somewhat independent of each other (working foremostly as a lover pair for themselves), or wolves and their lovers forming a band of six baddies (okay, then we've lost already :eek:)...?

Knowing that would make our speculation easier. Gwath!

Although probably not toDay. Today I'll suggest getting rid of a submarine unless something worth trying out comes to the fore. The least damage and a possible jackpot rather than lynching a person who could be of real help or get her/himself caught by talking a lot. An original idea, isn't it? :p

I'll be back a little later with hopefully some more particular thoughts on things.

[Nogrod]

I'll be back a little later with hopefully some more particular thoughts on things.Well, on people I mean... :)

[Nogrod]

Sorry about the triple-post...

Thanks Gwath! Nice timing! :D
(see disc. thread)

[wilwarin538]

To be a bit more serious, I think Wilwa raises a good point about the different dynamics this time around. But do we face three baddies as a team and their lovers attached to them individually (where lovers would be of secondary interest to the wolves), three pairs of baddies somewhat independent of each other (working foremostly as a lover pair for themselves), or wolves and their lovers forming a band of six baddies (okay, then we've lost already :eek:)...?

Knowing that would make our speculation easier. Gwath!



Goodness, hadn't even gone that close into it. I'm assuming their role as a Wolf would come before their role as a Lover, but without putting their Lover in harms way in the process. So their priority is a wolf win, but they would not harm their love in the process of obtaining that goal. But it could be the other way around as well...

because the traditional Lover role is that all they want is to be standing alive at the end of the game together, no matter which side wins. So wouldn't that make the goal for all of us, since we are all Lovers at this time, to be left standing at the end with our love? If that is the case, which I'm undestanding it to be, then it all depends on individual pairs, a wolf-wolf pairing, a wolf-innocent pairing, or an innocent-innocent pairing would all have different goals in attempting to survive til the end. So we may all at this time have the same primary goal (survive to the end with our love), but our secondary goals (which side we want to have win) is all dependent on what our role is and what our Lover's role is. Unless those two goals are intended to be the other way around and our Lover role is not intended to take priority, that's something Gwath needs to clarify I suppose....

Though once people start dying then Lover pairs will be torn apart, changing the goal of the Lover left behind from wanting to survive to the end -> to wanting their side to win, since now their role's goal is all that matters and their Lover goal is insignificant.

Goodness......

x'ed with Nog, going to check out discussion thread...

[wilwarin538]

Ok....so my last post is for the most part pointless now. :rolleyes:

So basically we want our side to win foremost above all, but if we can survive to the end with our Lover that would be a just like an added bonus, not something we shouldn't necesarrily strive for? That's how I'm getting it anyway.

Alrighty then, glad for the clarification. :)

[Rikae]

I forgot when the game was starting and almost missed day one. :rolleyes: Doesn't look like I've missed much of substance, though: some IC posting (which is nice to read, but I can't participate - not really my kind of music),Loslote making what look like random accusations, Wilwa wondering about lovers, Nog calling for a submarine-lynch? In principle, I agree, if nothing better presents itself - but let's get this discussion rolling and see, shall we? I'm a bit confused about the lover roles myself - in fact, I'm going to take another look at the admin thread, since as I understand it the setup seems a bit lopsided in the wolves' favor, but maybe I'm misunderstanding it.
Back in a few minutes. Everyone accuse me while I'm gone, ok? Except you, alona.

[Rikae]

Just went to the admin thread - so, lover roles don't mean much in game terms, then. That's what I thought, before Nog confused matters above. A trick? Ciould be a wolfish sort, intended to turn innocents against each other, or an innocent's attempt to trick the wolves as well... Nog? Or just another of your patented Wild Theories? :p

[satansaloser2005]

A wolf, she's a wolf! Lynch her!

How do you know she's a wolf?

She votes like one!

Bring her forward.

I'm not a wolf, I'm not a wolf, I'm not a wolf.

Ah, but you are posting like one.

They started the discussion. And that wasn't a real vote, it was a retraction.

Well?

Well we did egg her on a bit. And start a bandwaggon. But she's a wolf.

A WOLF! LYNCH HER!

Did you make a completely unfounded case against her?

No, no. No. Yes. A bit. A bit. But she is evil a lot.

What makes you think she's a wolf?

Well she sent my name in for a Night kill.

A Night kill?

I....my lover's the ranger.

But she's a wolf!

A WOLF! LYNCH HER!

[Rikae]

Sally, best accusation ever - if that was about me, I just might have to vote for myself now. :D
By the way, the Wereduckling points at the screen and says you're a "kit-kat". We don't have werecats in this game, right?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

No, but Kit-Kats are something you eat... so the Wereduckling wants to eat Sally? So the Wereduckling is pointing out a kill for her wolvish mother! Dun dun dun.

Also, Sally, if I'm cheating on anyone, it's Alona. :D

[alonariel]

Though once people start dying then Lover pairs will be torn apart, changing the goal of the Lover left behind from wanting to survive to the end -> to wanting their side to win, since now their role's goal is all that matters and their Lover goal is insignificant.

My thoughts are pretty much along the same line. For the innocent-innocent and wolf-wolf lovers, the goals will pretty much never change - even if their lover dies, they'll still want the same side to win. The interesting dynamics will come into play when a wolf-innocent (we have that in this game, right? I'm terrible at counting sometimes) lover pair is torn apart. That could shift the balance either way. And let's not forget about our dear Ranger, Hunter and Seer. Imagine if their lover were anything other than dearly innocent!

Just went to the admin thread - so, lover roles don't mean much in game terms, then. That's what I thought, before Nog confused matters above. A trick? Ciould be a wolfish sort, intended to turn innocents against each other, or an innocent's attempt to trick the wolves as well... Nog? Or just another of your patented Wild Theories? :p

From what Form told me about lovers roles, they originally started out as a Romeo-Juliet type thing. Both fighting to survive to the end, even if they were on different sides. I'm still fairly new to this...so do we think we can apply this same logic to this game, being that there are only 12 of us, three guilty, three gifted, six innocent?

By the way, the Wereduckling points at the screen and says you're a "kit-kat". We don't have werecats in this game, right?

Your little darling wasn't talking about me again, was she? :)

Also, Sally, if I'm cheating on anyone, it's Alona. :D

No kidding, dear. I'm about ready to ask for a divorce.


Side note: For those not at Bostonmoot, my last two comments above will make no sense whatsoever, apologies. Nor will Shasta's previous post.

[alonariel]

Everyone accuse me while I'm gone, ok? Except you, alona.

I must have missed this on my first read through! I might accuse you. Not yet, though. Not evil in this game, so I don't have a fear of you picking up on weird vibes from me. Onward with Day 1, then, and the zany logic that will surely have us all spent!

[Inziladun]

All right, so apparently there was some confusion about the Lover Pairs and their loyalties regarding Romeo/Juliet (wolf/innocent) pairings. But that's cleared up now? I too had thought of what it might mean if Lovers turned their backs on the village and dedicated themselves to aiding the wolves. Not that something so hideous could ever happen. :rolleyes:
It's good to have that clear, however.

So...still not too much going on, apart from the aforementioned discussions about the Lovers.

Let's see....Nog wants to get a submarine, Sally brings a Monty Python parody, Rikae makes me nervous just by being here...wereducklings....Shasta's quiet and enigmatic....in other words, a typical Day 1.
And I have to figure out who to vote for based on this. Fun stuff. ;)

x/d with Alon

[satansaloser2005]

Sally, best accusation ever - if that was about me, I just might have to vote for myself now.
By the way, the Wereduckling points at the screen and says you're a "kit-kat". We don't have werecats in this game, right?

Will you be Nilping yourself now or later? :P

Me? Lol I've not been called that since....erm, yeah, never, actually. Well, once, but the story can't be repeated. :Merisu:

No, but Kit-Kats are something you eat... so the Wereduckling wants to eat Sally? So the Wereduckling is pointing out a kill for her wolvish mother! Dun dun dun.

Also, Sally, if I'm cheating on anyone, it's Alona.

*is overcome with grief*

And what does Dun have to do with this?!?! (Heh.)





This lover discussion could get out of hand pretty quickly. My theory is that you want your lover to live and they give you extra insight, but if you're on the opposite side from your lover you might be in deep trouble, so it's smart to be careful what you say. The lovers are just for PMing purposes and to make the game a bit more fun. At least that's my opinion. Take me, for instance. My lover, whoever they might be, and I may be on different sides, but it's nice to have someone's 'honest' insight on things that they might not be able to say on the thread. Does that make sense?

*toddles off, comes back again later*

[Glirdan]

This was going to be an interesting Day.

Billy was wrong :rolleyes:

No, Billy was right!! Billy is actually quite happy to have returned to see all of these posts of chat and discussion rather then Noggy's usual Day 1 rants! :p

Okay, so no more in character/RPG style writing...although it was entertaining to write like that again.

I really have nothing much to say except that I do rather enjoy Wilwa's and Nogrod's thoughts and ideas on this whole Lover twist. Rather informative...perhaps a little too informative? Why try and delve further into it? Yes, I agree, it's good to actually recognize these things, but with all that information in it?? Hmmmm.....


No, but Kit-Kats are something you eat... so the Wereduckling wants to eat Sally? So the Wereduckling is pointing out a kill for her wolvish mother! Dun dun dun

We've found our Wolf!! Lynch her, lynch her!! :p


Also, Sally, if I'm cheating on anyone, it's Alona.

And what am I, chopeed liver!?

SIDE NOTE The two quotes above are in reference to Bostonmoot, so I apologize if you don't get them.

[Rikae]

From what Form told me about lovers roles, they originally started out as a Romeo-Juliet type thing. Both fighting to survive to the end, even if they were on different sides. I'm still fairly new to this...so do we think we can apply this same logic to this game, being that there are only 12 of us, three guilty, three gifted, six innocent?

Yeah, that would be a normal lovers role, but the admin thread indicates these lovers are different... I've actually never played with roles like this before (can PM, not necessarily on the same side) and I'm not sure how it's going to work. Certainly any innocent who suspects their lover is a wolf should come out and say it, right? I mean, we're not necessarily on the same side as our lovers, and we shouldn't necessarily trust them... I suppose when some roles are known, though, lovers might have useful information (if we trust that they are actually the lovers of the person with the known role... and aren't evil...).
It sounds to me like a situation where leaving a trail, leaving hints that can't be detected until after the fact, could be especially useful... nothing obvious, of course... so our lovers can really be useful to the village in the event of our deaths.

[Rikae]

Also, alona and Glirdan... that's not very considerate toward those of us who weren't at Bostonmoot (I actually sent my evil, introverted twin, you know.)

I also totally do NOT still have a piece of paper with "wolf" written on it in my pocket. Oh... wait... Mac must have forgotten to check the pockets when he did the laundry... :smokin:

[wilwarin538]

Certainly any innocent who suspects their lover is a wolf should come out and say it, right? I mean, we're not necessarily on the same side as our lovers, and we shouldn't necessarily trust them... I suppose when some roles are known, though, lovers might have useful information (if we trust that they are actually the lovers of the person with the known role... and aren't evil...).


Well I don't think that's a fair request, it gives us too much of an advantage, I mean if the wolves' lovers just come out and say "hey, I think my love is a wolf" then that makes the game too easy and it's not really fair to the wolves. The whole lover thing may not be our priority but I think it is still important and involves some form of trust between lovers, even if they aren't on the same side, so anything said between lovers in private probably should not be shared on here without the other's permission (at least not directly). It would just give us way to much of an unfair advantage, and honestly would kinda ruin the game by making it way too easy.

The second half of what you said though, I agree with. Once your lover is dead if you think you know something that could help the village, then come forward and say it. But before then just feels like playing dirty, at least to me it does.

[Rikae]

I think if the wolves are smart, they're going to do their best to cover their tracks when talking to their lovers (assuming the lovers are innocent). After all, the rules are there in the admin thread for all to see. Actually, I'd expect them to try and trick the ordos into giving away their gifted/ordo status, too. Everyone, remember, lovers don't win together in this game, and be cautious (or even better, clever) in your dealings with lovers, please.
I don't see why it should be easy, or cheating, to play the roles we were given to the best of our ability - wolves have the potential to use the lover relationships to their advantage too, after all. I actually find it a bit suspicious that you're arguing this way, Wilwa.

[Isabellkya]

I definitely got confused for a few minutes about the changed dynamics involving all of the lovers. Thought the game had suddenly gotten way more complicated than it originally looked. xD

I don't think we need to play much more differently than normal. Though I don't agree with necessarily spilling all of the beans to our lover. Only ordo's can be attached to a wolf, no?


X'd with Wilwa and Rikae.

[Isabellkya]

Haha.
Had just realized the/a advantage the wolves could use. Tsk tsk!

[Rikae]

Only ordo's can be attached to a wolf, no?


Hm... good point, Izzy. I've been assuiming anyone could bE PairEd with anyone, but Gwath's original post does say ordos and wolves. Still, it could just be that he didn't spell it out. Gwath?

[Rikae]

I would just like to say that the "bE pairEd" above is a typo, nothing more. Don't know how that happened. Carry on.

[Rikae]

I also think it's time to confess that I have a special role which requires me to make every post a double post or be instantly modfired. :D

EDIT: Oh dear... *dies*
;)

[wilwarin538]

I believe he said ordos "could be" paired with wolves, but that probably doesn't mean it's a guarantee for all 3 wolves. Maybe 2 of the wolves are paired together and the third has an ordo love, or maybe one of them even have a gifted lover. Or maybe all three wolves are paired with all three gifteds...how whack would that be? :p Really there are several possibilities and no definite way to tell how it is right now.

Then there's the fact that there is a traditional lover role somewhere in there (where they die together). So do they act with the goal of a traditional lover pair (in wanting to survive til the end) or are they like the rest of us and have to focus on their role, not their lover. Or do they even know what they are, I mean maybe Gwath has not told this pair that if one dies the other does as well and he's keeping it as a surprise. I suppose he still needs to clarify all that.

So I'm going to stop now and later look at suspects, since I only have about 5ish more hours before sleep, so need to vote in that time.

[Inziladun]

Hm... good point, Izzy. I've been assuiming anyone could bE PairEd with anyone, but Gwath's original post does say ordos and wolves. Still, it could just be that he didn't spell it out. Gwath?

Having wolves be Lovers with one another would seem to be pointless, since they're already able to communicate! The only way I could see that happening is if Gwath assigned the Lovers completely at random.

x/d with Wilwa

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I think if the wolves are smart, they're going to do their best to cover their tracks when talking to their lovers (assuming the lovers are innocent). After all, the rules are there in the admin thread for all to see. Actually, I'd expect them to try and trick the ordos into giving away their gifted/ordo status, too. Everyone, remember, lovers don't win together in this game, and be cautious (or even better, clever) in your dealings with lovers, please.
I don't see why it should be easy, or cheating, to play the roles we were given to the best of our ability - wolves have the potential to use the lover relationships to their advantage too, after all. I actually find it a bit suspicious that you're arguing this way, Wilwa.

I agree with this. It was pretty clear in the rules that wolves could be paired with people that weren't wolves.

Also, let's not forget that there is one traditional Lover pair. I wonder if they actually know they're the real Lovers, though?

Speaking of lovers... mine needs to empty their PM box. :mad:

[wilwarin538]

Having wolves be Lovers with one another would seem to be pointless, since they're already able to communicate! The only way I could see that happening is if Gwath assigned the Lovers completely at random.

Wolves can't communicate during the Day though, Lovers can. So it is possible. 2 Gifteds paired up though I think makes more sense, since they don't as commonly communicate. Could really go either way...

And I double checked, Gwath said in his original post that ordos and wolves may be paired together. So it isn't a guarantee, even though I see it as being the most likely scenario.

Ok, really going to stop now. Be back later for some suspicions.

x'ed with Shasta, who thinks like me (regarding the real Lovers)

[Inziladun]

Wolves can't communicate during the Day though, Lovers can. So it is possible. 2 Gifteds paired up though I think makes more sense, since they don't as commonly communicate. Could really go either way...

Hadn't thought of that. That raises the idea of two wolves being able to talk privately during the Day; not a good notion. Two Gifteds paired that way would be helpful, though.

[Nogrod]

Had just realized the/a advantage the wolves could use. Tsk tsk!I think we have thought of the same thing. So I was not the only one... Let's cross our fingers then... And heh, chew that wolves! :) (if that speculation is possible in the first place, that is ;) - chew even more of it!)

What comes to this general discussion over the lovers' roles I'd say that those saying it was clear from the start are trying to look better than they are eg. are probably hiding something, as I think it wasn't so clear in the beginning and I don't consider myself the dummiest rule-reader there is on this planet.

It is quite clear now after Gwath's clarification though. And it's good that way.

But we really could talk of other things but just speculate on the roles, really. I need to vote early everyDay as the DL is early morning (well, basically night) to me. I'll take a look back and then vote pretty soon... as odd as it feels to vote at this time of the Day (have I ever been the first to cast a vote?).

[satansaloser2005]

Hey I have to be offline for a while to deal with some personal stuff. Hopefully I'll be back but if not I'll catch up and at least let my lover know my thoughts come Nightfall. Hopefully be back soon.

[Rikae]

Hadn't thought of that. That raises the idea of two wolves being able to talk privately during the Day; not a good notion. Two Gifteds paired that way would be helpful, though.

I don't really like this post. It has a whiff of "look at me, I'm rooting for the right side (and otherwise completely stating the obvious)" about it.

Nor do I like this, for that matter:
What comes to this general discussion over the lovers' roles I'd say that those saying it was clear from the start are trying to look better than they are eg. are probably hiding something, as I think it wasn't so clear in the beginning and I don't consider myself the dummiest rule-reader there is on this planet.
That "those" would be me, and I don't know what sort of "good" I would be making myself look, except as a savvy reader of admin threads (though easily confused by Noggins). A wolf can read them as well as an innocent can, after all, so I'm certainly not saying it to make myself look good=innocent.
Explaination: I read the thread a while ago and vaguely remembered it, and then Nog came along with his crazy talk and I was all like "whoa" and Wilwa was all "whoa" and then Gwath was like "DUDE" and then I was all like "duh".
(Quotes are paraphrased)

Conclusion regarding Inzil:
...stare...
...stare...
...stare...

WOLF!

Well, maybe.

EDIT: Oh jeez - I just quoted Nog as Inzil! Ok... Inzil is only half a wolf now. What do you want... you both have white icons with a dark picture in the center, and I have 20/200 vision...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

A note - even if two gifted ARE paired up, it doesn't follow that they're going to know each other's identities, so don't bank on that, people.

[Isabellkya]

I had inferred that only ordos could be paired with wolves; because all it said was that ordos may be paired with wolves. It didn't say anything in relation to gifteds being paired with wolves.

If we had arrived at the same conclusion, holy crap is what came to my mind when I realized it. But I don't believe that conclusion to be correct... anymore - thank goodness!

I think in regards to lovers - treat them as another player, just that.
Trust is a luxury in these games, and it isn't given implicitly; even with role reveals. So to go above a step in this situation could prove to be folly.

[Nogrod]

Okay. I went back the thread to see who were the multitude who rushed to say it was clear from the beginning which the rules were and to my surprise I only found Rikae repeating the point multiple times - and Shasta actually just agreeing on the fact that it was clear there could be wolf-innocent lover-pairs... So interesting how fact beats feeling...


But even more interestingly Rikae first says: I'm a bit confused about the lover roles myself - in fact, I'm going to take another look at the admin thread, since as I understand it the setup seems a bit lopsided in the wolves' favor, but maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Then on her next post she says: Just went to the admin thread - so, lover roles don't mean much in game terms, then. That's what I thought, before Nog confused matters above. And soon she's able to say: the admin thread indicates these lovers are different...And finally: After all, the rules are there in the admin thread for all to see.
So from self-admitted confusion to underlining how the rules are out there loud and clear? It's not something I'd vote for Rikae on Day1 but a reason for caution with her already this early in the game. At least to me the rule was cleared only after Gwath's clarification in the discussion thread a few hours ago and not in the rules themselves when we started.


Anyway.


Now where's Lari?

Also Lottie and Morsul have only posted some banter - and interestingly both have posted lists of suspicions like no one else I think - and on the first hours of the game. Now that might have been for fun, it might have been to encourage discussion (as Lottie actually says explicitly). But I think it is a case to be noticed anyway - at least at this stage of D1.

I think Alonariel, Inzil and Izzy have been openly confused and inquisitive trying to find out things and I'd thus not vote anyone of them toDay as to me they feel the fairest.

I might count Wilwa among them as well, but her post #33 strikes me as something that one could interpret in different ways; the one where she talks of it being unfair against the wolves if the lovers just gave up their mates - like if they knew... or does her lover know she is a wolf? But that would be too clumsy for Wilwa - and as I agree with sportiveness in every role it makes me feel appreciating her general line of thought and thus I would hate to vote for her on that on D1.

What to say about Sally, Glirdy (may I still call you that Glirdan?) and Shasta then?

I'd hate to see Glirdy gone on D1 after he has come back to play after so many years. And actually I think he has been one of the really few who has been making a point on some people (even if an uneducated one concerning me, but anyway) while most others have just concetrated on covering their backs and not making any points on any one person in particular.

Shasta seems to end up being my usual suspect and thus I'm very reluctant to vote him just because I'm having suspicions; I could be wrong once again. Not that he has contributed a lot - but neither have most others.

Sally then is like her playful self which might indicate innocence... but what she says in here makes me a bit worried because of the insight it seems to bear with it: This lover discussion could get out of hand pretty quickly. My theory is that you want your lover to live and they give you extra insight, but if you're on the opposite side from your lover you might be in deep trouble, so it's smart to be careful what you say. The lovers are just for PMing purposes and to make the game a bit more fun. At least that's my opinion.Like it was something she had actually needed to mull over for a while? Not that I'd say Sally wouldn't be able to think that as an ordo but as that has been the only "serious" thing she has said apart from general banter and fun... well that makes me think. So is that too close for her?


Okay. Needs to think for a moment and then vote. (and read the latest meanwhile)

[Nogrod]

Excuse me Rikae. That latter quote you made inferences on wolfdom was me, not Inzil... Feel free to change your target. :)

EDIT: heh, I saw you had edited your post already... ;) *Tells self: "Dont be hasty, read everything first..."*

[Inziladun]

I don't really like this post. It has a whiff of "look at me, I'm rooting for the right side (and otherwise completely stating the obvious)" about it.

Come on, it wasn't that obvious. Speaking of 'obvious', I hope you don't really think I'd be that careless, do you? Aren't you reaching a bit? I really don't want to suspect you this early, though. You and I always seem to react to one another the same way (like someone else I think you know) and I don't want to make the mistake of getting tunnel-vision where you're concerned.

And Nog and I aren't really that similar, are we? :rolleyes:

x/d with His Nogginess himself

[Rikae]

Nog -
from the first post of the admin thread:
Lovers: All players will have a lover counterpart with whom they can correspond via PM at all times. Ordos and wolves may be paired up. Unlike normal lovers, the lovers in this game will be able to survive if their counterpart is killed.

I guess you'll have to take it on faith that I read that before signing up, and that I thought that was the case before becoming confused by you. Yes, I actually said "as I thought" without having expressed the thought previously in the thread... clearly a wolf slip, better lynch me.

EDIT: Added bolding in quote (bolding mine, of course).

[wilwarin538]

I had inferred that only ordos could be paired with wolves; because all it said was that ordos may be paired with wolves. It didn't say anything in relation to gifteds being paired with wolves.


This makes sense.

Has everyone posted? I feel like everyone has.

So I am sitting on my usual Day 1 dilema of not having any suspicions of anyone. :rolleyes: Because everyone to me is acting the way they would normally act. This is very frustrating.

Like, I think it's even possible that some people came into Day 1 thinking that their role as Lover took precedence over their role as whatever else (I did, because that's what I thought Lovers were supposed to be like) and are then told that that is not actually the case. Now that could potentially change how some people play. So basically everything said before Gwath clarified the lover roles I'm not taking as strongly, atleast not regarding suspiciousness, because at that time some people could have been focused on their Lover role, and are now focused on their actual role like they should be from now on, which could potentially have changed how they play. I know this probably doesn't apply to everyone, but just incase it is I'm keeping it in mind to avoid my own confusion. Am I making any sense at all?

Wow, I'm just thinking myself in circles now with all these hypotheticals, whenever there's some new dynamic I get crazy about every angle of the game. brain hurts....

gah, I'm supposed to be thinking about who looks suspicious...be back in a while

x'ed with Rikae

[Rikae]

I'll also add that, in regard to wolves being able to read the admin thread, I was replying to Wilwa who implied an innocent should conceal a suspected wolf lover and to do otherwise would be unfair... although I might not refresh my memory of the rules before the game, I can't imagine a wolf would actually say something incriminating to his/her non-wolf lover without checking the rules on that point first. That would be suicide, and the wolf who did it wouldn't deserve any special consideration because xe decided to do something so foolish. That's all I'm saying. I can't believe everyone is so eager to protect a hypothetical slipping wolf - am I in a village of cobblers again, or what?

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa

[Nogrod]

Well then; with D1 standards.


I'm not going to vote:

Izzy & Alonariel feel like concerned people trying to figure out the situation. I feel good about them right now.

Inzil dropped a bit farther away from that company because of his latest post which looks a bit over-reactive. But anyway, looking at his contributions toDay - and the possibility he's arguing with a wolf-Rikae - I'd say I'd not like to lose him on D1 for that.

If I was voting like an hour before the DL or later I would be more than happy to vote for Lari as she hasn't posted a single post. But as there are like four hours left (?) I think it would be unfair to vote for her and not giving her a chance to post - looking at the timezones and all that stuff... But that means D1 only. Being sloppy in the future she would easily gain my vote before the going gets tough as then we can not afford any blind trials. It is in these first stages we can afford them if we ever can.

I will not vote for Glirdy (long time no see & actually trying to make a point on someone and not just babble about generalities) or Shasta (I'd hate to vote him again and be wrong).


Less easy with:

Wilwa: her thoughts on the unfairness of the situation on behalf of the wolves trouble me a bit, but I could see myself thinking along the same lines. So how hypocritical could one become voting for someone because of thinking like you do yourself? So probably not. She has been contributing a host of ideas and that's what we need here anyway.

Rikae: Her protests notwithstanding - or probably because of them - I do actually suspect her somewhat (and not so much on the issue, mind you Rikae, but on the way you first acted like you were confused and then suddenly turned to be the prime champion of the rules' self-evidency; four times already, five... isn't that a bit overdoing it? Now why do you do it? I see no reason an innocdnt might do that). But I'm afraid a bandwagon on an innocent Rikae on D1 would be the jackpot the wolves would love so dearly. So probably not, toDay. She needs to be looked closely (hint-hint). She can be a real asset when the going gets tough if innocent.

Of Lottie and Morsul it's hard to say. Thay have actually behaved in a lot of similar ways - and neither has shown themselves after the very first hours. It might be timezones once again and I'm quite insecure with voting them as especially Morsul seems to be the "usual suspect" - although he tends to slip as a wolf just because of that. Possible candidates, though.

Sally then... Well I think it weird the only serious thought she gives is to the issue of oneself being in deep trouble with the lover being on the opposite team... After all that speculation that might have been just a bit too honest a thought - as you didn't care to ponder on any other "serious issues" before or after that?


So I'm inclined to vote for Sally but I'll take a pause for a cigarette and read anything that has come in meanwhile before voting.

[Nogrod]

I can't imagine a wolf would actually say something incriminating to his/her non-wolf lover without checking the rules on that point first. That would be suicide, and the wolf who did it wouldn't deserve any special consideration because xe decided to do something so foolish.How come this doesn't sound like an innocent speculation but something someone says out of personal experience? A frustration with your partners perhaps? Add to this the way you make the 180 degree turn on the issue of the self-evidence of the rules?

But even if the rules look like clear now, with Gwath's clarification, why then, if any wolf-lovers knew their mates to be wolves and would know they would win by revealing that, why haven't they stepped forwards already? What are you grasping at Rikae? Why such an intense stance?

Okay. We have a long history of differences and we have gotten each other lynched a host of times for the bad of the village. So I'm not going to vote you toDay, on D1. But if we're around toMorrow I will look at you more closely.

So

++ Sally

I hope to see you toMorrow but if not, I hope I have left thoughts enough to read.

Good n/Night!

[wilwarin538]

So I need to vote now, I might not have the chance to come back on, and since I honestly can't find anything wrong with anyone at this point, I'm going to vote for

++Lariren

I should be able to come on fairly frequently next Day. Good luck!

[Rikae]

But even if the rules look like clear now, with Gwath's clarification, why then, if any wolf-lovers knew their mates to be wolves and would know they would win by revealing that, why haven't they stepped forwards already?

Oh, I don't know... maybe for the reasons Wilwa gave, and you agreed with? And you accuse me of being inconsistent! :rolleyes:

I'm going to have to vote soon, as I have other things to do and don't want to miss the deadline. I'm considering voting for Nog for his nonsensical harping on my supposed 180 turn, ignoring the fact that I went and looked at the admin thread between those posts. The fact is, what I said - which amounts to "I'm not sure about the roles, a wolf would have checked the roles" - would only be inconsistent if I were a wolf, so he's basically arguing from that assumption, which doesn't look very kosher. Trouble is I have a history of going after Nog for saying something that looks bizarre/illogical at the time, and then finding out he's just an ordo... perhaps I'll vote for the other defender of HSW*s, Wilwa... or maybe go for a quiet one after all, though not Lari, since missing Day 1 totally probably has a RL explanation; perhaps Morsul, whose earlier posts unnerved me already.

*Hypothetical Slipping Wolves

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa, whose vote I don't like for the reasons I said I wouldn't vote Lari.

[Nogrod]

I was actually going to sleep but while brushing my teeth I actually came to think about this and thought I'd better share it before logging out.

Now there was something that bothered me with Rikae's stance on the issue, but it was also that something on the whole issue didn't seem like right. And now I think I found the reason for it.

So the rules say this (bolding mine): Lovers: All players will have a lover counterpart with whom they can correspond via PM at all times. Ordos and wolves may be paired up. Unlike normal lovers, the lovers in this game will be able to survive if their counterpart is killed. So it actually says that the thing that is different from a normal lovers' role is solely the fact that the other part to the relationship can outlive the other - and that is actually nothing unheard of as we've had that kind of games before - and it might have interesting follow-up's depending on how the innocents are able to guess on their lover or how the wolves work with their lovers respectively. And how the allegiances work in the first place - of these I'm quite optimistic.

But that would actually mean also that the winning conditions for lovers will be the same as they always have been, eg. that the lovers only win together as there is no mention about a new ruling where a lover can win without her/his mate. The only difference to the rule is that they can outlive one another (and of course after that freed from the relationship and able to be what they wish). There is no mention of a possible new victory-condition for one lover without another (and what kind of lovers' roles would those be in the first place?).

So I can see now why no-one has come forwards to betray their mate - if they knew the identity of their lover in the first place. And the wolves have probably checked this out already a long time ago and just smile at us trying to figure it out. :o

So were you not thinking of this Rikae while you boasted on being on top of the issues or did you try to achieve something with your polemics on the issue while knowing it and still trying to look like you didn't?

Well, do not forget that angle to the issue toMorrow.

And good luck!

[Loslote]

Loslote making what look like random accusations,

They were random. I made them up on the spot. Really, I have no idea about any of them. (Except EvilWolfNerwen, of course. ;) )

Of Lottie and Morsul it's hard to say. Thay have actually behaved in a lot of similar ways - and neither has shown themselves after the very first hours. It might be timezones once again and I'm quite insecure with voting them as especially Morsul seems to be the "usual suspect" - although he tends to slip as a wolf just because of that. Possible candidates, though.

Timezones and the fact that I have had no power for fifteen hours - no heat, no electricity, no running water, and worst of all, no Internet.

[Loslote]

About the lover issue:

I of course don't trust mine completely. They could be a wolf for all I know. But I'm certainly not going to vote them or suspect them. Even if I think they're a wolf, what would be the point of saying "ooh! ooh! lynch x! I think they're a wolf and want to seriously hurt our chances of winning by giving up the power to pm with a wolf and maybe get xem to reveal their packmates!"? Plus, what they say in private is private. No one should be lynched based on what their lover says.

In any case, there would be no reason for someone to think thier lover slipped and revealed that they're a wolf. Wolves are smarter than that. More likely they were an ordo trying to get you to slip and reveal that you're a wolf. :rolleyes:

[Rikae]

So it actually says that the thing that is different from a normal lovers' role is solely the fact that the other part to the relationship can outlive the other - and that is actually nothing unheard of as we've had that kind of games before
Really? I only recall a lover who lived a day for a revenge kill and the mod's amusement... or else lover-like roles who still retained their own side's normal allegiances and conditions of winning. Actually, I remember lovers who *did* die together, but were on opposite sides and won with their respective teams, too.

But that would actually mean also that the winning conditions for lovers will be the same as they always have been, eg. that the lovers only win together as there is no mention about a new ruling where a lover can win without her/his mate. The only difference to the rule is that they can outlive one another (and of course after that freed from the relationship and able to be what they wish.

That doesn't mean any such thing. He didn't say anything about the lovers' winning conditions in the beginning, only that they don't die together; but it makes little sense for lovers who don't die together to win only together. If one dies, the other is alive, but has no role, no motivation. Like I said, I've only seen that once, and that only involved living for a day to make silly random posts.

So I can see now why no-one has come forwards to betray their mate - if they knew the identity of their lover in the first place
Really? Why? Misguided concern for fairness to wolves? As if I believe that... anyone with a question can always PM the mod. The game is fair... that is, until people (like Wilwa's lover, maybe? Or Wilwa herself?) start working for the other team for meta-game reasons. If it's not part of your role, it's not fair, and if the wolves win because innocents are letting them win, I'm going to be royally ticked off.

EDIT: X'd with Loslote's 2nd post.

[Rikae]

Even if I think they're a wolf, what would be the point of saying "ooh! ooh! lynch x! I think they're a wolf and want to seriously hurt our chances of winning by giving up the power to pm with a wolf and maybe get xem to reveal their packmates!"?
And if you die, this would be so incredibly helpful to the village. :rolleyes:
Plus, what they say in private is private. No one should be lynched based on what their lover says.
Where does it say that in the admin thread? Stop making up rules. Just because it seems nice and romantic doesn't mean it's good WW. Plus, if this were true it would be bad form for gifteds to reveal, too.

In any case, there would be no reason for someone to think thier lover slipped and revealed that they're a wolf. Wolves are smarter than that. More likely they were an ordo trying to get you to slip and reveal that you're a wolf. :rolleyes:

Unless I missed something, these wolves, like most wolves, know each other's roles anyway... so a lover going "ooh, I'm a wolf, are you one too?" isn't going to accomplish much.

[Loslote]

And if you die, this would be so incredibly helpful to the village. :rolleyes:

Where does it say that in the admin thread? Stop making up rules. Just because it seems nice and romantic doesn't mean it's good WW. Plus, if this were true it would be bad form for gifteds to reveal, too.


Unless I missed something, these wolves, like most wolves, know each other's roles anyway... so a lover going "ooh, I'm a wolf, are you one too?" isn't going to accomplish much.

Oh, but I like things to be nice and romantic, plus no one ever can quote pms. Isn't that one of the basic foundation rules of WW? Unless Gwath says he's changing that, I'm assuming we can't use pm reasoning, because it would be basically meta.

And how does that link to gifteds??

[wilwarin538]

What Nog said makes sense, and is honestly exactly what was going through my head until Gwath's clarification.

During Night 1 I was distinctly under the impression that the only thing that made us different from traditional Lovers was that we don't die together, I assumed everything else was the same, therefore assumed that our main goal (as long as our love was alive) was to survive til the end with our lover, no matter what side won. Rikae, this may not be how you understood it, but it's clearly how some others understood it (including at least me and my lover).

Aswell my lover and I were under the impression that we could tell each other our roles. So we did. Because we thought our Lover role was priority over our other role, and therefore believed that knowing each other's role would help us achieve a win as Lovers (since at the time that's what we thought the goal was).

So if we don't restart and we continue as is, any information I gained from my private PMs with my partner will remain between him and I, at least as long as both of us are alive. You may not agree with that, but it doesn't seem fair to me for either of us to use any information we may have gained from each other in private, when that information was collected when we had a different understanding of the dynamics of the game. It's not fair to anyone.

[Rikae]

You don't need to quote PMs to reveal things. Gifteds reveal their roles without posting their role PMs from the mod, after all! This doesn't mean you can't say "I know so-and-so is such-and-such because xe is my lover and told me". Any more than "I know xe is such-and-such because I'm the seer and dreamt of xem". Yes, either way, we don't know whether the person is telling the truth, but if they aren't, they'll be caught soon enough.

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa, in reply to Loslote.

[wilwarin538]

plus no one ever can quote pms. Isn't that one of the basic foundation rules of WW? Unless Gwath says he's changing that, I'm assuming we can't use pm reasoning, because it would be basically meta.



This is true.

[Loslote]

You don't need to quote PMs to reveal things. Gifteds reveal their roles without posting their role PMs from the mod, after all! This doesn't mean you can't say "I know so-and-so is such-and-such because xe is my lover and told me". Any more than "I know xe is such-and-such because I'm the seer and dreamt of xem". Yes, either way, we don't know whether the person is telling the truth, but if they aren't, they'll be caught soon enough.

EDIT: X'd with Wilwa, in reply to Loslote.

The quoting pms was the only thing I was talking about. If you think your lover is a wolf, by all means find reasons in their posts to suspect them. Just don't use the argument "they said x to me, therefore they are evil." What they say to you in private should stay there. What they say in public is another matter entirely, and that is fair game.

And what would be the point of faking that you think your lover is a wolf? A fake seer reveal can be faked well and last for a few Days. A fake lover reveal, where you say your lover is a wolf and they aren't, can only last one.

EDIT: xed with Wilwa

[Rikae]

*shakes head*

So, Wilwa, either you're a wolf or an ordo protecting a wolf. Knowing the rules before acting on them is each player's responsibility, and we can all PM Gwath if unsure. I can see how you're trying to do the honorable thing (if you're innocent) but there's also a good chance you're making this argument for your lover, or your packmate's lover to follow... I'm not trying to be mean here, but this is my best lead at this point and I really can't stay at the computer longer toDay, so:

++Wilwa

[Morsul the Dark]

Also Lottie and Morsul have only posted some banter - and interestingly both have posted lists of suspicions like no one else I think - and on the first hours of the game. Now that might have been for fun, it might have been to encourage discussion (as Lottie actually says explicitly). But I think it is a case to be noticed anyway - at least at this stage of D1.

Okay. Needs to think for a moment and then vote. (and read the latest meanwhile)

reread my list let me quote the bottom bit;

This list is not a guilty/not guilty list merely what I'm expecting to see...

[Inziladun]

In any case, there would be no reason for someone to think thier lover slipped and revealed that they're a wolf. Wolves are smarter than that. More likely they were an ordo trying to get you to slip and reveal that you're a wolf. :rolleyes:

Ahh, are we still on about this? If someone had good information on a wolf, I would expect them to reveal it. If that doesn't occur, I have to conclude nothing of the sort is available. There's no way to know if someone is holding out or not, is there? I don't get what you mean by the last part, Lottie. Would the real wolves not be fully aware who their packmates were?

So. Voting-time isn't too far away. What have we?

I'm reluctant to vote for Rikae, despite a general feeling of misgiving. It's pretty standard for me to suspect her, as I said, so I'd like to have something more concrete to go on.

Sally is..Sally. Rather odd and not around too much (the first bit's a compliment) ;). I don't think it should be her toDay.

Morsul... not a great deal to work with, but probably the brightest ping on the radar. His early response to Lottie's joking suspicion on him seemed strange. Like I said, it admittedly isn't much, but it may be the best shot I see for toDay.

Wilwa...well, lots of talk about the Lover roles, and a vote for Lari. It's the latter that I dislike more, since I generally don't like going for someone who hasn't been around on Day 1, especially when there could have been RL reasons for it. She said she couldn't find anyone else, which is plausible for Day 1, I guess. Still one to watch.

Nog goes after a semi-submarine, which seems fairly in-character for him. But I don't recall him really giving a reason to vote her. Hmm.

Shasta: Who's that? Is he playing? :rolleyes:

Alon: don't really recall much from her except IC stuff and references to some decadent soiree in Boston...

I feel like I'm missing someone.

x/d with the last 5 posts or so

[Loslote]

Okay, so unless we start over, I have to vote pretty soon.

I'm not voting Glirdan or Izzy because I've never played with them before. I'm not voting Morsul because I always want to when he's not evil. I'm not voting Shasta because what I've seen so far makes sense. I'm not voting Rikae because she doesn't seem evil, even if we disagree about the pm thing. I'm not voting Lottie 'cause I'm not Nilp.

I'd perfer not to vote for Inzil, Sally, Lari, or Alona.

I might vote for either Nogrod or Wilwa. So far it's just a gut feeling, but I'll look more closely at them.

EDIT: xed with Rikae, Morsul, and Inzil.

[Rikae]

The quoting pms was the only thing I was talking about. If you think your lover is a wolf, by all means find reasons in their posts to suspect them. Just don't use the argument "they said x to me, therefore they are evil." What they say to you in private should stay there. What they say in public is another matter entirely, and that is fair game.
"Quote", in my understanding of werewolf (after three years of playing), means a direct quote. Mentioning something one learned through PMing, as long as one doesn't quote, is certainly not forbidden. Gifted pairs have done it, lovers have done it... I've absolutely seen a ranger who could PM with a seer say, after the seer's death "he told me X". There is nothing wrong with it.

And what would be the point of faking that you think your lover is a wolf? A fake seer reveal can be faked well and last for a few Days. A fake lover reveal, where you say your lover is a wolf and they aren't, can only last one.

Did I say it would last longer? One day can mean a lot sometimes.

EDIT: X'd with Morsul, Inzil, Loslote.

[Loslote]

Ahh, are we still on about this? If someone had good information on a wolf, I would expect them to reveal it. If that doesn't occur, I have to conclude nothing of the sort is available. There's no way to know if someone is holding out or not, is there? I don't get what you mean by the last part, Lottie. Would the real wolves not be fully aware who their packmates were?

I feel like I'm missing someone.

Sorry. Never been a wolf. That should have been obvious...:rolleyes:

Glirdan, Izzy, me, and Lari. :p

EDIT: xed with Rikae.

[Morsul the Dark]

wilwa and Lari voted each other nog voted sally I have to read more...

Lottie you're right! right now I am confused:rolleyes:

[Glirdan]

And I have returned....too more posting about the topics of the Lovers.....Why are we still debating this?? I thought everything was cleared up yet a certain butterfly of ours keeps bringing it up.....Maybe her wings are actually more furry then they appear?? That is what I am inclined to believe at this current moment, but there is still a couple of more hours for me to vote. So I shall go back and thoroughly re-read Wilwa's posts and see if I can find anything.

Oh and:


I'd hate to see Glirdy gone on D1 after he has come back to play after so many years. And actually I think he has been one of the really few who has been making a point on some people (even if an uneducated one concerning me, but anyway) while most others have just concetrated on covering their backs and not making any points on any one person in particular.

Thank you!! Although I am not entirely without reasoning behind suspecting you. You're usual Day 1 ranting has not been brought up! That was a shock. Instead, you and Wilwa began the debates on the Lovers topic! That's really all the suspicions I have for you and definitely not near enough to vote for you at this time. As I said, I am more concerned about Wilwa and have had suspicions since earlier toDay.

I am off now to go do some homework (aka read Wilwa's posts thoroughly) and will be back shortly!

[Loslote]

"Quote", in my understanding of werewolf (after three years of playing), means a direct quote. Mentioning something one learned through PMing, as long as one doesn't quote, is certainly not forbidden. Gifted pairs have done it, lovers have done it... I've absolutely seen a ranger who could PM with a seer say, after the seer's death "he told me X". There is nothing wrong with it.


Did I say it would last longer? One day can mean a lot sometimes.

EDIT: X'd with Morsul, Inzil, Loslote.

Yes, after their death. Before that there are reasons why they told you one thing and everyone else the other. Personally, I'm too "nice" (as in infuriatingly so, not that anyone else isn't) to consider doing that. Probably this is another occasion of my acting silly, but I still wouldn't. After their death, of course, it's all fine and dandy, they can't be affected by it anymore. But what they pmed was in confidence, trusting that you would treat it that way, and as long as they're alive and could be harmed by it...

Also, you wouldn't get the whole story. Maybe someone pmed "Grr I hate seers" in the context of "I wonder who they'll dream they'd better not dream me because that would be a waste grr I hate seers because they only get one dream per night" (yes, lame example, but you get the point). Just because they say something, if you can't see the whole thing you're bound to make a mistake.

EDIT: xed with Morsul and Glirdan

[Loslote]

Lottie you're right! right now I am confused:rolleyes:

Um...about what, exactly, was I right about and you are confused about?

[Morsul the Dark]

Ok.... so Lottie seems to be leaving me alone...it's odd for her.

Sally randomness and such nothing surprising there

Wilwa...sadly you are on my radar...
Rikae...
Nogrod...

Wolf on Wolf on Wolf??

Lari however doesn't seem suspicious at all adding to Wilwa...

so...

++Wilwa

[satansaloser2005]

To Sir Nog (though he's long gone): I was just voicing my thoughts that caution when communicating with your lover is key, as some might tend to trust their lover and tell them things (suspicions, etc., and that's just for an ordo!) without considering that they'd be a wolf. Forgive me, but if I know I'm apt to make a slip I consider it my duty not only to remind myself not to do it but to caution others against it as well.



And on that note, a vote count.

Nog-->Sally
Wilwa-->Lari
Rikae-->Wilwa
Morsul-->Wilwa

Which means that anything can happen. Here's a brief list based on how I'm feeling at the moment, and then, internet permitting, I'll read through the thread and offer a bit of commentary.


Leaning toward trusting: Nogrod, Dun, Shasta, Glirdan
Hesitant toward: Lottie, Rikae, Wilwa
Can't decide on: Everyone else (Lari, Morsul, Alona, Izzy)
Pure evil: Nerwen, Gwath

EDIT: x'd since Morsul and edited my vote count accordingly. Seems a bit hasty, to be honest. Perhaps he'll move to my second category.

[Loslote]

++Wilwa

It seems like she's trying too hard to be nice. She doesn't really add anything new to the disscussion, just continuing the Lover debates without really saying anything. She voted Lari without real reason - has she even been on yet? She seems to try to stay on everyone's good side.

And she feels like a wolf.

EDIT: xed with Morsul and Sally

[satansaloser2005]

++Wilwa

It seems like she's trying too hard to be nice. She doesn't really add anything new to the disscussion, just continuing the Lover debates without really saying anything. She voted Lari without real reason - has she even been on yet? She seems to try to stay on everyone's good side.

And she feels like a wolf.

EDIT: xed with Morsul and Sally

To her credit I believe she did support Nog's idea of lynching a submarine, which Lari would currently qualify as. I certainly don't agree with her decision however.

[Morsul the Dark]

Um...about what, exactly, was I right about and you are confused about?
I'm confused about everythng... and after a Loooooong time of searching:

it's a quote from an old game... I'm too tired to search anymore

I remember it specifically however, "Morsul is generally confused and confusing"

[Loslote]

Ok.... so Lottie seems to be leaving me alone...it's odd for her.

~~~

++Wilwa

The vote makes me a bit more worried. Day One bandwaggons are rarely a good thing. Still, I do want to lynch her more than anyone else...*sigh* I guess I boils down to I don't trust Morsul, which brings me to my second point: This is just Day One. ToMorrow I'll be after you like a ... um ... something that chases you! :p

EDIT: xed with Sally and Morsul again

[wilwarin538]

Knowing the rules before acting on them is each player's responsibility, and we can all PM Gwath if unsure

That's the thing, I wasn't "unsure", it seemed quite clear to me that the only difference between these Lover roles and the traditional ones were that we don't die together, because it wasn't stated otherwise I assumed everything else was the same. I didn't feel like I needed clarification until today when I started seeing that people where understanding things differently then I expected.

Aswell I know that my Lover PMed Gwath about whether we could tell each other our roles, and since he told me his I assume that meant Gwath said it was OK. And I'll say it again, no matter what advantage that information may give the village I won't reveal it, because at the time it was told to me both him and I were under the impression that our Lover role was the priority, and therefore the information was collected under "false pretenses".

gah, I'm just gonna give up and stop talking about this. Sorry if this makes me look terrible, but I don't like the idea of winning by using information that was unfairly gained. And my thinking only about this lead me to making a random vote, which I don't enjoy doing, but there's not much I can do about that now...

x'ed with a bunch...that's just lovely...

[Loslote]

To her credit I believe she did support Nog's idea of lynching a submarine, which Lari would currently qualify as. I certainly don't agree with her decision however.

I suppose. Still, I'd be happier if she'd voted someone who'd at least posted, if just banter. Give it a bit more reasoning or something.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Shasta is having a few RL issues and is sorry he hasn't done much today. Given a day to get over it, he's sure he'll be fine. Also he's sorry for typing in third person.

Major, major suspicion of Lottie, to the point that -

++Loslote

Her vote for Wilwa after agreeing with her all Day long feels like a wolf turning on a cornered packmate. Granted, this vote relies on Wilwa being a wolf too, but more options and all that.

X'd with I don't know.

[Morsul the Dark]

The vote makes me a bit more worried. Day One bandwaggons are rarely a good thing. Still, I do want to lynch her more than anyone else...*sigh* I guess I boils down to I don't trust Morsul, which brings me to my second point: This is just Day One. ToMorrow I'll be after you like a ... um ... something that chases you! :p

EDIT: xed with Sally and Morsul again

you don't like bandwagons???

I voted Before you... you added a third vote? two votes isn't quite a bandwagon Three is.

I think tomorrow I'll chase you too:eek:

Hmm.... I feel like this is familiar a wolf toying with its prey... are You a wolf?

[satansaloser2005]

I'm actually far more comfortable with

++Morsul

Than any of the ladies. His tone and attitude seem way off and for him to just come in and vote like that and just change the subject (about his being confused) looks bad to me.

I has a text message. Back in a second.


EDIT: x'd with Morsul, who just further proves my point. Btw, can anyone actually read my icon? Dunno if I'm blind or if it's hard to read.

[Loslote]

*is ignoring Shasta for the time being because I may just be biased here*

But if I weren't, that wording has mucho potential for suspicion. Just sayin'.

EDIT: xed with Morsul and Sally - I can't, Sally. It's a bit too small and blurry. Translation, please?

[Loslote]

you don't like bandwagons???

I voted Before you... you added a third vote? two votes isn't quite a bandwagon Three is.

I think tomorrow I'll chase you too:eek:

Hmm.... I feel like this is familiar a wolf toying with its prey... are You a wolf?

I xed, and I noted that I did. I didn't know you'd voted when I voted.

[Morsul the Dark]

++Morsul
EDIT: x'd with Morsul, who just further proves my point. Btw, can anyone actually read my icon? Dunno if I'm blind or if it's hard to read.

Ok I can live with that I understand the reason though I'll say now you're incorrect.

to the second point I got as far as "We're Sorry" I'm blind as well

[alonariel]

A note - even if two gifted ARE paired up, it doesn't follow that they're going to know each other's identities, so don't bank on that, people.

But wouldn't the gifteds profit from knowing each other's identities? A ranger and a hunter could coordinate or a hunter and a seer could definitely sniff out the wolves in no time. This comment doesn't make sense to me, Shasta...

Trouble is I have a history of going after Nog for saying something that looks bizarre/illogical at the time, and then finding out he's just an ordo... perhaps I'll vote for the other defender of HSW*s, Wilwa... or maybe go for a quiet one after all, though not Lari, since missing Day 1 totally probably has a RL explanation; perhaps Morsul, whose earlier posts unnerved me already.

She's at work! All day! ...Oh dear, I think she's going to kill me. :eek:

[satansaloser2005]

*is ignoring Shasta for the time being because I may just be biased here*

But if I weren't, that wording has mucho potential for suspicion. Just sayin'.

EDIT: xed with Morsul and Sally - I can't, Sally. It's a bit too small and blurry. Translation, please?

Dang, that's what I was afraid of. Thanks, precious. I just changed it on a whim; it says "We're sorry, but the icon you are trying to view is currently unavailable. It is busy squeeing its pants. Yes, we know, icons don't have pants. Anymore." It shows up fine on LJ. :(

Why would you be biased with Shasta? Did I miss something?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

"We're sorry, the icon you are trying to view is unavailable. It is currently squeeing its pants off. Yes, we know, icons don't have pants. Anymore."

*shuts computer off for the night*

Edit: X'ed with Sally.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I also x'ed with Alona just now, so I'll comment real fast.

Yes, the gifteds would profit from knowing each other's identities. I was just saying that even if, say, the Seer and Ranger are lovers, it doesn't follow that they're going to know that they're lovers with each other.

[Inziladun]

Sorry. Never been a wolf. That should have been obvious...:rolleyes:

I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt Lottie, but I'm torn between thinking you too savvy to make a mistake like that honestly, and thinking you too crafty as a potential wolf to have said something like that deliberately.

This Wilwa wagon has taken off very swiftly, though. I think I'll stick with someone already on my radar, who jumped onto it.

++ Morsul

x/d with everything from #91 onwards

[satansaloser2005]

"We're sorry, the icon you are trying to view is unavailable. It is currently squeeing its pants off. Yes, we know, icons don't have pants. Anymore."

*shuts computer off for the night*

Edit: X'ed with Sally.

*hugs you* Text me if you need to talk or anything precious. Hope to be seeing more of you toMorrow.


O hai dere, lover. I shall send you a PM now, for I love thee. ^_^


ETA: x'd with Shasta #2 and Dun.

[alonariel]

Thoughts on toDay:

The whole debate between Rikae and Nog strikes me as Day 1 ordo-on-ordo, though time may tell a different story. I've always been rubbish at reading Rikae, and have never played with Nog before, so we'll see...

I only partially understand the votes for Wilwa. Yes, she does seem trying to be on everybody's good side, but were I in her shoes and had more time to post toDay, I probably would have ended up with the same musings on the lovers role. As it stands, I don't feel wolfishness from her all that much.

Morsul...I've never played with before, and therefore have no basis for comparison. Like Inzil said, he did jump on her bandwagon pretty quickly.

Lari has not posted yet because she is trapped in an eight-hour shift at work that should be ending soon - hopefully she'll get on and get in a post or two soon!

Yes, the gifteds would profit from knowing each other's identities. I was just saying that even if, say, the Seer and Ranger are lovers, it doesn't follow that they're going to know that they're lovers with each other.

How would they not know? When I received my role, it clearly stated that I was a lover and who my lover was, just not their identity, only their name. Why would lovers not know they were lovers? *confused*

Okay, I see you've gone to bed - and I don't have my phone to pester you with texts, so I'll save that question for tomorrow.

[wilwarin538]

So I was going to stay up until the end, until I just realised the end is not in 25 minutes like I thought, but actually 1 hour and 25 minutes, and I'm not staying up until midnight cause I have school early in the morning.

I'd appreciate it if I did not have to wake up to me being lynched, but if I am I just hope you all learn that when I'm guilty no one suspects me cause I'm discrete and sneaky, when I'm an ord I get lynched within the first few days because I try so hard and my logic is a little bit weird. Just keep that in mind for my next game, it'll save us all alot of time and energy.

kthnxbye

[Glirdan]

Wilwa Post Analysis

Recaps will be regular, my comments will be italicized. Also, this is more for my benefit (I like writing things down to keep my mind and thoughts in order) but you can all use it as well obviously

Post # 14 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=620970&postcount=14)

Her first post of the game with not much to say but comments on how interesting and confusing the game will be due to the fact that their are now not only two teams, but many different minor teams.

Not much to comment on and nothing out of the ordinary.

Post # 19 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=620980&postcount=19)

Takes an even deeper look into the whole Lovers scenario due to the fact that Nogrod went into her post with a little more depth. She brings up a few interesting notions, one of which being that each individual Lovers pair will be more interested in surviving till the end of the game rather then want their "side" to win. Moves on to say that once one Lover starts dying, the role of the surviving Lover will change and they will be more concentrated on making it to the end.

Even the first time I read this I had to re-read it. A few things jumped out at me. One, the fact that she believes each pair is really in this for themselves, which is not entirely true if you stop to think about it. We only have ONE traditional Lover pair that really wants to make it to the end. Two, how everyone's "role" once their partner has died will be transferred to helping their respective "side". I don't know about the rest of you, but finding the Wolves is on the top of my priority list, that way both I AND my Lover could live happily ever after. It's called balancing between having a lover and having to find the Wolves, find your middle ground. Three, the fact that she's delving further into something that need not be discussed. Really, if there are any questions and concerns about how this is going to play out, they should be brought to the Mod.

Post # 20 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=620982&postcount=20)

Basic apology post (I guess after having read the Admin thread) and has come to an understanding of what the Lover roles are.

Eases my suspicions slightly but not taken off the radar just yet.

Post # 33 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=621007&postcount=33)

Rebuttles Rikae's question of whether or not Lovers who suspect their partner is a Wolf should come out and say anything. Believes that it gives us an unfair advantage in the game (wait, we're palying a game!? :p ).

I'm going to stop analyzing right here because for me this post is the ticket to Wilwa getting my vote. The fact that she said that we SHOULDN'T reveal any suspicions about our partner is rather worrisome in itself. If someone knows ANYTHING about there partner being a Wolf, they should step up immediately! The whole point of this is for us to catch the Wolves, right? Why do something that could hinder that UNLESS you're the Lover of the Wolf!

--------------------------------------------------

So that's that.

++Wilwa

For the points I made above.

I'll be around for awhile longer too if anybody has any other questions

X'ed with Sally, Alona and WolfyWilwa :p

[wilwarin538]

Alona, he meant that two gifteds could be lovers with each other but because they don't know each other's roles neither are actually aware of the fact that their lover is a gifted as well.

k, really going now.

x'ed with Glirdy, who I have only now remembered always used to find me suspicious, why did I want him to come back so bad? :p

[Lariren Shadow]

wilwa and Lari voted each other nog voted sally I have to read more...

Lottie you're right! right now I am confused:rolleyes:

Uh, this is my first post. I have no idea what you're reading but I haven't voted.

I honestly have no idea, but I need to eat and am probably not going to get back in time. So I'll do a horribly quick read through and see who to possibly vote for.

[alonariel]

Ah, alright. I guess I was assuming that the lovers would reveal their identities to each other.

But it doesn't really matter now, though - we're starting over... :confused:

[Gwathagor]

All right, guys. We're restarting. I'm sorry for all the confusion. I'm sure a great deal of it is my lack of clarity, since I've never modded before.

I will create a new game thread, and we will start over there.

[wilwarin538]

K, sorry but I just have to comment on this before finally going to bed....

One, the fact that she believes each pair is really in this for themselves, which is not entirely true if you stop to think about it. We only have ONE traditional Lover pair that really wants to make it to the end

That was my belief at the time, before Gwath clarified, and no there actually is no traditional Lover pair.

I'm going to stop analyzing right here because for me this post is the ticket to Wilwa getting my vote. The fact that she said that we SHOULDN'T reveal any suspicions about our partner is rather worrisome in itself. If someone knows ANYTHING about there partner being a Wolf, they should step up immediately! The whole point of this is for us to catch the Wolves, right? Why do something that could hinder that UNLESS you're the Lover of the Wolf!

This isn't fair, you should have taken ALL my posts into consideration. And if I'm the lover of a wolf why lynch me? I'm not actually a wolf, so lynching me does nothing. You really should have read all my posts.

x'ed with Gwath, ok then, will shut up now, and go to sleep and try to wipe the mental slate clean for the new game....

[satansaloser2005]

Well....that was a waste. :(

[Glirdan]

Don't have the energy to go through them all really my love (it's been a long weekend...). But seeing as the game is ending ANYWAYS....Remember that I still love you and that you really do need to work on your writing :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Wait, why are we restarting?

[alonariel]

Wait, why are we restarting?

You got me, but we are. There was some confusion about the lover roles.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

You got me, but we are. There was some confusion about the lover roles.

Didn't most people vote for continuing? I'm confused now.

[alonariel]

Didn't most people vote for continuing? I'm confused now.

Eh I guess, but Gwath's restarting, clean slate. From what I was picking up on towards the end of Day 1, it's probably for the better for the village...

[satansaloser2005]

Didn't most people vote for continuing? I'm confused now.

Meh. Whatever works, I suppose. *shrugs*

[Gwathagor]

Yeah. Executive decision. Sorry.