What happened to Ted Sandyman ?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

After the scouring of the Shire, does anyone know what became of Ted Sandyman ?

[Mnemosyne]

As far as I know, no one does. There's a lot of fanfic exploring the possibilities, though, and I'd be more than happy to link you to some of the theories I've encountered there.

Here's a question bouncing off that, though:

What sort of a justice system would the Shire have had, to deal with such clear evildoers as Sandyman? We know that they never used capital punishment, and the more brutal forms of corporal punishment don't seem very hobbitous either. We also know that they didn't have prisons, at least, not the way that we'd think of them, since the "Lockholes" were actually the "old storage tunnels" in Michel Delving and were thus converted into a prison by the ruffians.

We can also assume, given the lengths Frodo took to make sure that the Shire's spirit remained as intact as possible (no killing of hobbits) that any changes to the justice system that resulted from the Troubles would have been as mild as possible. Given the horrors of the Lockholes I don't think that it would have remained a prison.

Again, I've heard some hypotheses--banishment and shunning are the two most predominant theories that I've encountered in fan fiction--but I'd love to hear everyone else's take on the matter.

[Inziladun]

Sandyman's fate probably would have been something along the lines of Gandalf's idea of 'probation' for Saruman: perhaps Sandyman would have been obliged to demonstrate repentance by making some extra effort in the rebuilding process, and maybe giving up some money and property to aid in it. I think he would have been genuinely sorry for what he'd done, being after all a Hobbit, and he couldn't have been the only one corrupted by Saruman's actions. He would likely have carried with him an air of ill-repute for the rest of his days, but that would seem only right.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Perhaps Ted was forced into an arranged marriage with a young harridan from the Sackville-Baggins brood. Punishment indeed.

[The Might]

Very nice question, but also difficult to answer since there really is no hint...
However, I have nothing to add to Inziladun's post, sounds how it probably would have happened, of course if Sandyman chose to remain in the Shire and integrate himself again.
I doubt that he left the Shire though...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

He might have. The book does say that after hearing of the Battle of Bywater, the southern gangs of ruffians fled "out of the land and offered little resistance to the Thain. Before the Year's End, the few survivors were rounded up in the woods, and those that surrendered were shown to the borders." Sandyman might not have been considered a ruffian in the same way as the Men who invaded the Shire, but I suspect he wasn't considered much better. Sam in particular bore him a strong grudge, and I'd guess that he would have tried to go into hiding, if he could. If he couldn't, I rather think that Sandyman and any other surviving Hobbits who willingly sided with and abetted the ruffians and Saruman were probably taken to the Thain -- and given that the Thain's son and heir was now a knight of the King, they may have been turned over to the King's Justice. I can imagine that Aragorn would have come up with some very inventive ways to rehabilitate Hobbits gone bad...:D

[Inziladun]

I rather think that Sandyman and any other surviving Hobbits who willingly sided with and abetted the ruffians and Saruman were probably taken to the Thain -- and given that the Thain's son and heir was now a knight of the King, they may have been turned over to the King's Justice. I can imagine that Aragorn would have come up with some very inventive ways to rehabilitate Hobbits gone bad...:D

Aragorn would have been fair and just, but it's hard for me to see his making a special trip back North to handle what were really Hobbit affairs. For one thing, he had quite a bit to get into shape in Gondor, as the fact that he didn't accompany the Hobbits to Rivendell attests. And it was King Elessar himself that later made the law that Men were to stay out of the Shire, and held himself to it. I think he considered the Shire the same as Rohan: free people with the authority to govern themselves, under the friendship and protection of Gondor.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Aragorn would have been fair and just, but it's hard for me to see his making a special trip back North to handle what were really Hobbit affairs. For one thing, he had quite a bit to get into shape in Gondor, as the fact that he didn't accompany the Hobbits to Rivendell attests. And it was King Elessar himself that later made the law that Men were to stay out of the Shire, and held himself to it. I think he considered the Shire the same as Rohan: free people with the authority to govern themselves, under the friendship and protection of Gondor.

Oh, I doubt that Aragorn would have come himself. But if I recall correctly, it is stated that the Shire does fall under the governance of the Northern Scepter (which wasn't much governance after the North Kingdom failed). Aragorn certainly would not have wanted to take away the freedom and self-determination the Shire had enjoyed, but after a period of severe instability, it would not have been unacceptable, I think, for he and the Thain to act together (through correspondence, if nothing else) to help restore the Shire in a political sense. Helping to deal with those who had done so much harm to the Shire could be looked upon as a good thing, especially if handled in such a manner that makes it clear the Hobbits, and their ways, are not going to be treated as if they have suddenly become vassals to another foreign power. As Pippin is already acting as a representative of the King, and has the King's respect, for that relationship to be extended to the Thain in a cooperative effort to bring miscreants to justice (particularly given that dealing with this degree of unlawfulness is a pretty new thing for the Hobbits) would not, I think, seem untoward.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A solution all around could be for Sandyman to move to Bree. Commerce and trade would pick up there, and he'd probably be more comfortable in that sort of less provincial and exclusively hobbitish setting. (I'd imagine there'd be at least one Ruffianlyish house available there). :)

[Morthoron]

Sandyman probably did what every successful businessman does when the side he backed during a war loses, he promptly changed sides and became even richer. It worked for many major businessmen in Germany, France and Italy after WWII. I don't recall Sandyman ever committing a felonious crime; therefore, he did just fine. Hell, even Lobelia got off scott-free.

[Findegil]

On the justice-system of the hobbits: We see at least one example of banishment. Granted it is not in the shire but in the vale of Anduin and it is rural comunity of Stores. Nevertheless Smeagol is clearly exiled by his clan.

This punishment he did not get for the killing of Deagol, because he is never blamed for that, but for his unsocial behavior (thus a misbehavior some what similar to that of Ted Sandymann).

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Selmo]

I don't think that Ted Sandyman, or any other Hobbit, faced any legal sanctions as a result of the occupation of The Shire. It would be difficult to decide who had co-operated willingly with Saruman's men and who had been coerced.
In my mind I can see The Thain, The Master and the Mayor making a joint statement granting a general amnesty for all offences committed during the occupation, giving everyone a fresh start.

As for Ted Sandyman, he would remain the same obnoxious Hobbit he always was. He would probably loose the tenancy of the mill and have to take a labourer's job, although he may have been the only one with the knowledge and skill to rebuild the mill after the new one was demolished. Either way, he would spend his evenings boring everyone in the Green Dragon, complaining how unfair life had become and declaring that it had been better when Sharky was in control.

.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Just thought of something. It would be typical of hobbits
to have a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, sort of
like in South Africa, to reconcile everyone as peacefully as possible,
given that it wasn't just Sandyman who "collaborated."

[Pitchwife]

Perhaps Ted was forced into an arranged marriage with a young harridan from the Sackville-Baggins brood. Punishment indeed.
I'm sure that would have led to outcries of protest from Amnesty Middle-earth and a flood of outraged letters to King Elessar, maybe even an appeal to the United Downs (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=16223) (q.v.).

I don't recall Sandyman ever committing a felonious crime; therefore, he did just fine. Hell, even Lobelia got off scott-free.
Right. I'm sure he did his bit of sneaking and informing, but I doubt there was any such thing as espionage or 'collaboration with hostile invaders' in hobbit law, and anything below murder or armed robbery was probably dealt with by informal sanctions like shunning.
As for Lobelia, it rather seems she was celebrated as a heroine of the resistance after making such valorous use of her umbrella against the ruffians.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I think it would have been the easier, and in my opinion also most likely, that Ted would decide himself to leave the Shire. I mean, being a known traitor, with Sam as a neighbor, even if he proved forgiving, we all know how people like that act (like Saruman): not believing that somebody would forgive them, even if they will. So I think Ted would just flee, wherever he could go, just so that he does not have to endure the looks of his neighbors, perhaps also out of fear of punishment, which in the end might not have even come to place had he stayed, but of course he would assume the worst. As people like that in Middle-Earth always do.

[Inziladun]

Well, I think it would have been the easier, and in my opinion also most likely, that Ted would decide himself to leave the Shire.

Where could he have gone, though? I wouldn't think Bree would have allowed Bill Ferny back, so maybe they both went to the outskirts of the Bree-village, maybe Archet, and lived together, 'gnawing one another with words' like Saruman and Wormtongue. A just punishment. ;)

[shadowfax]

Just thought of something. It would be typical of hobbits
to have a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, sort of
like in South Africa, to reconcile everyone as peacefully as possible,
given that it wasn't just Sandyman who "collaborated."

Don't know.

I think the Hobbits were too old fashioned and not sufficioently PC for that type of thing.

If somebody had done something evil, they were punished for it (after a Hobbit manner). If they had just quietly collaborated then it was theirs to hang their heads in shame. A lot of this aplologising in public that goes on these days isn't really genuine and I don't think Tolkien went for it. Forgiveness is a private thing that has to happen directly between those concerned and until recently it wasn't really considered right to go on about it in public.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Hmm, perhaps given Sam's personal dislike of Sandyman and the damage he and his mill did to the Shire, he was sentenced to public service, and made to haul manure for farms and other plantings that didn't receive the direct benefit of the soil from Galadriel's garden. It would seem rather poetic justice. :D