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Gothmog
09-29-2001, 03:41 PM
If an entire anrmy of Orcs were to battle an entire army of Trolls who would win? Personaly I think the Trolls would win. Please post your opinions.

Sauron
09-29-2001, 03:52 PM
Trolls would because they are bigger and meaner. Just as long as the sun doesn't come out the Trolls win.

Shark
09-29-2001, 05:23 PM
Well, having yet read neither Sun Tsu nor Clausewitz, this is more or less speculative:
Basically, it comes down to a conflict between heavy infantry and light(er) infantry, althought the trolls can be almost considered as hammer-units similar to heavy cavalry.

A single orc does not stand a chance against a single troll. A thousand orcs stand a small chance against a thousand trolls because orcs have low cunning, and a better organisation than trolls without a leading lieutenant. On the other hand, the dim-wittedness of trolls and their natural grimness might prove to convey a better morale in battle, at least better than that of the orcs. The 1,000 orcs of the example would most likely turn tail and flee rather than to fight at all.
Of course, all of this changes if the numbers are inequal - orcs were always more numerous by far - or when the quality and equipment of the troops is different. Are the orcs riding vargs? Do they have archers? If so, how many? How are both sides armoured? What race are they, small pesky Misty Mountains-snagas, or fighting Uruk-Hai; Olog-Hai or the like of Bilbo's three trolls, or are they sun-resistant First Age-trolls? smilies/wink.gif How are they lead, how many champions do they have, or standards? The battlefield is important, the fitness, the weather...
But if 1,000 Mordor orcs with swords and no leader battler 1,000 trolls with clubs and no leader, and both sides fought on an open plain under clear moonlight, no question, the trolls would win.

Gothmog
09-29-2001, 07:28 PM
Ok the trolls are Olag-hai and the orcs are Urak-hai. Both have somewhat of a leader. The orcs are not on wargs. Just a straight battle between the two strongest types of these to minions of Mordor.

Elendur
09-29-2001, 11:44 PM
Well.. it depends. smilies/smile.gif If the Uruk-Hai are smart, which they are alot of the time, they would probably take an elevated position and have some archers. After picking off as many as they could, they might be able to overtake the trolls. But even then, the chances would be very small. The trolls obviosly have an advantage in melee combat even if they are attacked from above and have less numbers. I will go with the trolls unless the Uruk-hai have 10 commanders like Ugluk.

Orald
10-01-2001, 02:51 PM
I believe the Uruk-hai could win, but this is completely circumstancial. If the fight was in a forest then the Uruk-hai could use guerilla tactics against the Olog-hai.

Plus we know that orcs utilize a wide range of weapons, suppose Trolls only use clubs. Then orcs would be able to pick off a large number of trolls with arrows before the trolls actually got to the orcs.

And even if the trolls were olog-hai, would that enable them to fight using tactics, I mean do we know for sure if Olog-hai are smarter than normal trolls?

Halbarad
10-28-2001, 07:00 PM
1/.Fangorn once said that the Trolls were made in mockery of ents, just as the orcs were made in mockery of the elves. Given that orcs were twisted elves, doesn't it logically follow that trolls would be from twisted ents, and therefore have some of their attrubutes such as strong skin (such as the cave troll in Moria). As arrows only infuriate ents, I think that trolls wouldn't be particularly bothered by them.
2/. Are we talking equal numbers here? 100 orcsa versus 100 trolls would be an unfair fight- trolls are huge and if they swipe a small tree trunk in front of them that would damage a large number of orcs. Granted trolls are stupid (unless they're Olog-Hai) but that does not work to their disadvantage unless they were ambushed by orcs.

Ghshgl
10-29-2001, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by Gothmog:
<STRONG>Ok the trolls are Olag-hai and the orcs are Urak-hai. Both have somewhat of a leader. ...</STRONG>

Well, let's see: The Orks have "somewhat of a leader". For an ork there is a big difference between a "leader" and "somewhat of a leader": When an ork chieftain just succeeds in convincing his orks that he is "somewhat of a leader", a lot of them will not accept him. They will choose another leader, and then they will fight against the followers of Mister "Somewhat of"...

In this case the Trolls have nothing to do than to sit down, to enjoy the brawl between the orks, and to bet which party wins. Then it will be a piece of cram to kill the survivors, if any... smilies/evil.gif

Conclusion: The Trolls win. smilies/biggrin.gif

Ghshgl

Orald
10-29-2001, 09:38 PM
Good point about the thick skin, I never took that in to consideration.

Eowyn of Ithilien
10-30-2001, 07:00 AM
arguing about hypotheticals is so much fun smilies/wink.gifeeeek I'm gonna get a reputation for being a cow soon aren't I???

Eldar14
11-01-2001, 02:21 PM
Of course, and army of orcs and and army of trolls are of two completely different sizes. It takes a lot less trolls to be considered an army, and I'll assume this armies are as small as they can be and still be considered an army.

Now that my 'army-size introduction' is over, I'll say what I think will happen. Once a group of orcs is an army, a 'somewhat leader' would be an actual leader who just isn't very good. Once you factor in that the Uluk-hai fighting, I'll assume the leader is at least somewhat skilled in battle tactics. He would probably get his men to the high ground, and try to do some damage with arrows (even with thick skin, there are weak points, ex. eyes, mouth, etc. Also, some orcs could probably draw a pretty big bow, so these arrows could be big enough to pierce troll hide) Then the Olok-hai would charge, smashing into the Uluk-hai. The initial blast would make the line start to fall back, but the Uluk-hai are good enough soldiers not to retreat. They'll form some sort of defensive formation, and use some sort of lance-like weapon to halt any Olok-Hai who try to do a full scale charge again. This line would slowly advance while the 'leader' attempts a flanking maneuver, which would take out a few trolls before it is destroyed. The destraction, however, would allow for a charge from the Uluk-Hai, which might force the Olok-Hai into a retreat, or at least do enough damage to turn the tide of the battle, almost assuring the Uluk-Hais' victory. That's my theory.

Taimar
11-02-2001, 10:20 AM
One quick point to bear in mind. At the Gladden Fields, 2000 orcs (motivated by the proximity of the ring) had great difficulty in defeating 200 weary Dunedain. I would guess that any type of troll would, one on one, be more than a match for a mortal warrior. I think that a force of orcs would have to greatly outnumber a force of trolls before having a reasonable chance of victory.

Orald
11-04-2001, 09:35 PM
Then again, Hurin, an Edain, killed 70 trolls after a hard day of fighting. Tru, he was the greatest human warrior, but if these Dunedain warriors were half as good as him then they could have defeated an army of 7500 trolls, well beyond the orc number of 2000. Continuing along these lines, the average Dunedain warrior would only have to kill 20 trolls to be able to say that an army of orcs is a more formidable foe than an army of trolls.

Taimar
11-07-2001, 09:17 AM
Where does it say that Hurin killed 70 trolls? The Sil says that:

"(Hurin`s) axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time he slew Hurin cried:
`Aure entuluva! Day shall come again!`. Seventy times he uttered that cry..."

This does not mean that Hurin slew 70 trolls, but rather that he killed 70 enemies, one or more of whom were members of Gothmog`s personal (trollish) bodyguard. I think it likely that most of the vanquished were orcs.

Remember what happened when Boromir attacked the troll in Moria. I think this is a more realistic example of what would happen if a human warrior attacked a troll.

[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Taimar ]

Witch King of Angmar
11-07-2001, 10:34 AM
I think that a lot of it has to do with circumstances. There are circumstances where the Uruk-hai would fair better than the trolls.

I believe that the Uruk-hai are somewhat intelligent and they would not run into a field and fight trolls at midnight evenly matched. The Uruk-hai would wait until they could find a suitable time and place to fight that would be advantageous to them and would further their winning chances.

But one on one a troll would obliterate an orc.

Orald
11-07-2001, 11:32 PM
Well, there may have been orcs along side the Troll Guard but I doubt that his kills consisted mostly of orcs because it says that he was surrounded by the Guard(or maybe it doesn't, you may get me there).
Also, in The Lost Road it states that Hurin slew 100 orcs after everyone else had been killed or fled. From this I would assume that Tolkien changed it to killing 70 and a Troll Guard to signify how great a warrior Hurin really was. Because when you think of it, Boromir killed many many orcs at the Rauros and Boromir was definately no Hurin.

Taimar
11-08-2001, 09:26 AM
Fair point, Durelen, I agree with your comparison between Boromir and Hurin. The passage in the Silmarillion abotu Hurin`s feat is slightly ambiguous and open to interpretation. It does mention that the orcs grappled with Hurin in an attempt to take him alive, even though he hewed off their hands and arms (reminiscent of Merry in LOTR). Just how many trolls Hurin killed can only be a matter of conjecture.

Orald
11-08-2001, 11:43 PM
As is nearly everything in Tolkien's cosmos.

Esil the Elf
11-09-2001, 05:24 PM
It's important to compare the value of the leadership.

A thousand Orcs need a stable leader who is respected and valued by the troop. Orcs work together and tend to need someone to guide them.

A semi-organized band of trolls is as effective as a highly put together band of Orcs. Trolls don't rely so much on leadership and respect; they are much more self guided.

500 unorganized Trolls vs 1,000 organized Orcs with a semi - proficient leader = Winner is...

The Trolls. They will lose alot in numbers but they would still overtake the foe.


Then again, I fail to see why this battle would happen. Why would baddies fight each other? smilies/tongue.gif

Esil the Elf
11-10-2001, 09:05 AM
Bahh I'm not sure now. Opinions please..?

Esil the Elf
11-10-2001, 09:29 AM
Yeh the trolls would win.

My mind is set. smilies/tongue.gif

The Barrow-Wight
11-10-2001, 09:32 AM
Why would baddies fight each other?

It has happened before with the orcs squabbling in the Eastemnet and the complete slaughter at the Tower of Cirith Ungol.