A little translation help..

[igorus]

I would like help translating a phrase into Quenya, please! Sorry, I don't know if this is the appropriate board to post this in.. sorry for my noobiness.
It is short and sweet, "Child of the Lord". I am thinking of getting it for a tattoo, but I want to be completely sure I have it right. According to what I have found, it should be something along the lines of "heruhín" but I'm not exactly sure.

[Loslote]

That's what I would think, but I'm no expert - just look at my name! (Half Quenya, half Sindarin by accident. :rolleyes:) Actually, do you want of THE Lord, or just A Lord? If THE Lord, you'd need "Hin i Heru".

[igorus]

Well, I'm basing it mostly on the Quenya index in the back of the Silmarillion. There, it says that "Children of Eru" is "Eruhini" so just by logical deduction, I figured that "Child of (the) Lord" would be "heruhin". But if you say so..
What is the difference between a lord and the Lord, grammatically?

btw, thank you for the speedy reply.

[Loslote]

Well, I'm basing it mostly on the Quenya index in the back of the Silmarillion. There, it says that "Children of Eru" is "Eruhini" so just by logical deduction, I figured that "Child of (the) Lord" would be "heruhin". But if you say so..
What is the difference between a lord and the Lord, grammatically?

btw, thank you for the speedy reply.

"lord" is the general term, used to describe any lord. The Lord is specific - it describes one lord in particular - and a single "i" is used to indicate "the" in Quenya. An example of this is "Narn i Hin Hurin", the tale of the Children of Hurin. :)

[igorus]

"lord" is the general term, used to describe any lord. The Lord is specific - it describes one lord in particular - and a single "i" is used to indicate "the" in Quenya. An example of this is "Narn i Hin Hurin", the tale of the Children of Hurin. :)

So, taking the "i Hin Hurin" part and replacing Hurin with Heru, you would get Children of the Lord". This makes total sense. So, how would I make this plural "Children" and make it a singular "child"? :D

[Loslote]

So, taking the "i Hin Hurin" part and replacing Hurin with Heru, you would get Children of the Lord". This makes total sense. So, how would I make this plural "Children" and make it a singular "child"? :D

That's the bit I'm not certain about. Usually adding "i" to the end of a word makes it plural, but this has the plural as being "hin" not "hini"...I think the singular is "hin".

[igorus]

That's the bit I'm not certain about. Usually adding "i" to the end of a word makes it plural, but this has the plural as being "hin" not "hini"...I think the singular is "hin".

That is what I thought, because is the Silmarillion index it lists Children of Eru as Eruhini.. so hin would be the logical singular form.

Well, I think that just about covers it. Thank you so much for your help, Loslote!

[igorus]

Ah, by the way. It is actually called "Narn i Chîn Húrin" and it is Sindarin, I guess. That would be the source of our confusion I'm guessing.

[Loslote]

Ah, by the way. It is actually called "Narn i Chîn Húrin" and it is Sindarin, I guess. That would be the source of our confusion I'm guessing.

Ah...I think I have a different version of the title than you do. :)

[Eönwë]

It is actually called "Narn i Chîn Húrin" and it is Sindarin, I guess. That would be the source of our confusion I'm guessing.

But Narn i Hin/Chin Hurin is "The Tale of the Children of Hurin". Children, not child.

[Pitchwife]

Quenya:
singular hína "(a) child", i hína "the child"; plural híni "children", i híni "the children".
Sindarin:
singular hên "(a) child", i chên "the child"; plural hîn "children", i chîn "the children".

"Child of the Lord":
Quenya hína i heruo*, Sindarin hên i chîr.
*or heruhin, if you prefer to make it a compound - like 'Ring-Lord' rather than 'Lord of the Rings'.

[Nerwen]

Guys, you are indeed mixing Quenya with Sindarin. They have similar words for "child", but not the same. In Quenya it's "hína/híni", in Sindarin "hên/hîn" ("chên/chîn" after a vowel).

Igorus, I believe you were almost right the first time– in Quenya it should be "Héruhin", with an accent on the "e" (assuming you mean THE Lord, not A lord). Though "Eruhin" would have the same significance.

Meanwhile the Sindarin version could be "Hên i Chîr", "Hên i Cheron" or "Hên i Vrannon", but I'm not sure which of those, if any, would be the proper way to refer to THE Lord.

I think that's about as good an answer as you're going to get, but be aware that Tolkien's languages are incomplete, and that he kept revising them throughout his life– something to keep in mind before you rush to the tattoo parlour.;)

Edit:X'd with Pitch; fixed typo.

[Galin]

Eruhin is actually attested in Quendi And Eldar, where Eruhíni 'Children of Eru' is explained as a translation of a Valarin expression. The explanation goes on to say...

'Besides the form -hin, -híni only used in composition after a parental name, Q has hína 'child', and hina only used in the vocative addressing a (young) child, especially in hinya (< hinanya) 'my child'. S. has hên, pl. hîn, mostly used as a prefix in patronymics or metronymics: as Hîn Húrin 'The Children of Húrin.'

JRRT, Quendi And Eldar, The War of the Jewels

And according to Words, Phrases And Passages:

KHIN-, child, only plural hīn(i)

[deleted: hindo, hinde...]


So in general we have to wonder sometimes with respect to Tolkien changing his mind, and also there are matters like usage and idiom to consider.

[igorus]

"Child of the Lord":
Quenya hína i heruo*, Sindarin hên i chîr.
*or heruhin, if you prefer to make it a compound - like 'Ring-Lord' rather than 'Lord of the Rings'.

Where did the extra O in heruo come from? I've never seen that before. Other than that, that seems to be a solid translation.
BTW, did you write the translation yourself or did you get it from somewhere? I'd like to see the source, if that is possible.

Guys, you are indeed mixing Quenya with Sindarin. They have similar words for "child", but not the same. In Quenya it's "hína/híni", in Sindarin "hên/hîn" ("chên/chîn" after a vowel).

Igorus, I believe you were almost right the first time– in Quenya it should be "Héruhin", with an accent on the "e" (assuming you mean THE Lord, not A lord). Though "Eruhin" would have the same significance.

I think that's about as good an answer as you're going to get, but be aware that Tolkien's languages are incomplete, and that he kept revising them throughout his life– something to keep in mind before you rush to the tattoo parlour.;)

Edit:X'd with Pitch; fixed typo.

Definitely not rushing in any way. I've been trying to figure this out for close to a year now. hehe. Nerwen present an entirely new possibility. Putting an accent on the E to signify THE? I haven't seen this, but I am quite new to Quenya, so I wouldn't be surprised if I missed a few things.
I know Eruhin is close, but I'm going for a rather specific meaning, and Child of The One is just too broad.


So in general we have to wonder sometimes with respect to Tolkien changing his mind, and also there are matters like usage and idiom to consider.

Agreed. I guess if the translation isn't perfectly clear, that would give me a bit of creative liberty and choose the translation that I feel works best for me, or even the one that would seem the prettiest when using Tengwar. Besides, I doubt any one would see the tattoo and "dude, you spelled that wrong." Unless I see one of you fine people in the street some day.

Thank you so so so very much to everyone for all of your input and help. Like I said, I've been trying to do this on my own for a long time, so I'm glad I have people like you to help me out. All of your great expanses of knowledge are greatly appreciated.

[Pitchwife]

Where did the extra O in heruo come from? I've never seen that before. Other than that, that seems to be a solid translation.
It's the genitive ending, like the English 's in "Lord's"; IIRC somehow related to the preposition o "from". Sindarin lost it together with all other final vowels.
BTW, did you write the translation yourself or did you get it from somewhere? I'd like to see the source, if that is possible.
Made it myself, as I don't think I've seen that particular phrase anywhere before. If you're interested in Quenya/Sindarin vocabulary and grammar, I can highly recommend Ardalambion (http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/) - it's a great site covering all of Tolkien's invented languages, and the Elvish ones quite comprehensively; I learned everything I know about Q and S there.

[igorus]

It's the genitive ending, like the English 's in "Lord's"; IIRC somehow related to the preposition o "from". Sindarin lost it together with all other final vowels.


After reading the Ardalambion, it seems like you have the best translation, especially with the example they use, Indis i Ciryamo "the mariner's wife".
Thanks again, you guys have been a great help.