Powers and power levels of Arda beings

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

So in this thread, I'd like to address/question/speculate the topic of power levels with the various inhabitants of Arda, from the immortal Valar to the mortal men. Feel free to tackle/expand what interests you:

~ Of the Ainur ~

1. When Melkor made war with the Valar and destroyed the Two Lamps, why did the Valar lose, and why did they need the aid of Tulkas? If I remember correctly, at the time when the sun first rose, Melkor and his servants feared Arien, a maia, and had not the power to assail her. Yet before, the Valar's forces were defeated by Melkor.

2. When Earendil returned with the Silmaril, why didn't Yavanna or the Valar break the Silmaril to revive the Two Trees? I realize that the sun and moon were already in place, but the Valar could have broken the Silmaril, or did they need all three to revive the Trees?

3. The last prophecy talks of the Valar becoming "young again." In the same paragraph, the revival of the Two Trees is mentioned as well. Could it be that the Two Trees were what would've kept the Valar from feeling weary? Is it possible that the light of trees maintained them as well (its power was evident in the Calaquendi and Ungoliant who sucked their sap dry), otherwise the gardens of Lorien would've sufficed.

4. If one speculates, what would be the outcome of Fingolfin vs Sauron? Do you think Fingolfin would win, or would the outcome be the same as Finrod's demise?

5. Why didn't Sauron forge the One ring during the first Age (other than the fact that he was serving Morgoth)? I understand that he defected from Morgoth and did not participate in the War of Wrath after his defeat in Tol Sirion. He could have departed into the far East and began his forging there, for the One would enhance his strength and anchor his spirit to Arda. Or could it be that the forging of the ring was a two-way thing: that he needed to provide the lore to the elves, so that he, in turn, can learn their skill and craft to produce the One?

6. There was this passage about Saruman and how he was deeply in the lore of ring-making, that had he found his way in Orodruin, he would've found the missing links in his research and would have produced his very own ring of power (not the puny trinket he showed off to Gandalf). If this had happened, would his ring be less mighty than Sauron's, considering how the Valar clothed him in flesh and restricting much of his innate powers? Whereas Sauron had no restrictions and had all access to his maiarin power, free to dispense as he wished. And if he had succeeded, using Sauron's formula, would his ring also be subject to Sauron's?

7. Out of all the Istari only Gandalf succeeded in the mission. But would it be fair to the other Istari, who did not possess Narya or a ring of power to aid them? Can we say Gandalf woud've strayed as well had Cirdan not surrendered Narya to him?

8. Bearing a true elf-child, not feigned, and inheriting her divine powers, can we assume that this must have had a diminishing effect upon Melian? For it was said that she gained power over Arda the more she became bound to it, just like Melkor. And when the Enchanted Isles were placed about Valinor, is it possible that Melian's body, in which she bore Luthien, needed to "die" to enter Valinor again? If so, this could be very diminishing considering Sauron's ordeal, right? And Melian did not have a ring to regenerate her so to speak.

9. Melkor seemed far weaker after his captivity for Three ages (e.g. not being able to withstand Ungoliant, Arien, etc..). Is it possible that the Valar did something to weaken Melkor? Did Aule's chains have something to do with this?

10. The breaking of Saruman's staff left him nearly powerless. Is it possible that the Istari can only work magic through them (perhaps part of their conditions to their mission in M.E.), and are significantly less without?

~ Of the Eldar ~

1. Do the Sindar pale slightly in comparison to the Numenorians (in terms of everything except for immortality)? Numenorians made magical blades and had their very own versions of Lembas and cordial drinks, but I hear nothing of Sindars working magic.

2. After Glorfindel's resurrection, his spiritual stature was enhanced and came very close to that of a maia. If he were to fight Durin's Bane, do you think he would survive the ordeal in his newly enhanced state? I know Gandalf, a maia, perished, but one must remember of the incarnate restrictions the Valar placed upon him.

3. Can we assume that Galadriel's spiritual stature was equivalent to that of the Maiar? Realize that Tolkien considered her as one of the three greatest of the Eldar (the other two, Luthien & Feanor), and as one poster stated, "unqualified greatness." And she was still the mightiest in the Third Age in comparison to great elves such as Cirdan, Gildor, Elrond, Celeborn, and Glorfindel himself. Already considered great with her uncle Feanor, she was also a student of Aule and Yavanna, a close friend and pupil of Melian, and a weilder of Nenya. She saw through Feanor, Sauron, Saruman, and Boromir. And note Feanor's spiritual potency when he battled against many balrogs at the same time, and didn't immedietly succumb to defeat.

4. How powerful was Dior? It seems to me that he was more powerful than his mother, having killed three of Feanor's sons. And they were Calaquendi as well. Impressive considering that the sons of Feanor chased away the Balrogs who slew their father. Was it his maiarin blood at work here? If so, how was he able to inherit it if Luthien became "mortal" before he was conceived? Shouldn't he just be a regular man, unless Luthien, then an elf, mated with Beren before their deaths and ressurection?

5. Alot of posters say that the Three were made to preserve and not made as weapons of war. Some even disagree that they enhanced the natural powers of its wearer (stating that these were exclusive to only the Seven and nine). But how else would one explain Elrond's flooding over the wraiths and his healing, or Galadriel's mirror, her phial, and her aid to Eorl and his host against Dol Guldur? Yes, one can speculate it may have been their native powers, but if that were so, they sure didn't exhibit any of the feats they did in the Third Age compared to the Second or First. It seems that their possession of the Vilya and Nenya enhanced them enough to finally be able to do such things.

~ Of the Edain ~

1. I always get confused why people reference Melian's power in all of the Numenorians. Was it not only a specific line that inherited her blood, and not all of Numenor? Weren't they given 500 extra lifespan years as a whole race, rather than a byproduct of Melian's blood?

[Nerwen]

No offence, Gorthaur, but I think a lot of this is unanswerable, largely because you talking about "power" as though it's a singular, measurable quality, like height.

Do you mean– Strength of will? Physical strength? Intelligence? Fighting skill? Magical ability?

Example:

4. How powerful was Dior? It seems to me that he was more powerful than his mother, having killed three of Feanor's sons. And they were Calaquendi as well. Impressive considering that the sons of Feanor chased away the Balrogs who slew their father. Was it his maiarin blood at work here? If so, how was he able to inherit it if Luthien became "mortal" before he was conceived? Shouldn't he just be a regular man, unless Luthien, then an elf, mated with Beren before their deaths and ressurection?

Luthien wasn't a warrior and never killed anyone at all. Dior, as far as I can recall, never cast any spells. Asking which was "more powerful" is like taking a runner and a chessplayer and asking "who wins?" without specifying the contest.

As for the other question: yes, it's something that Dior was able to kill the Sons of Feanor– however, Luthien didn't cease to be Melian and Thingol's daughter by becoming mortal. She chose to be subject to a finite lifespan, and a different fate after death from the Elves, but I don't think that implies she literally turned into a garden-variety human, genetics and all. In fact, Tolkien makes a number of pretty unambiguous statements to the contrary, e.g. [Dior] appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world, of threefold race: of the Edain, of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm.
I mean, I should think that if that only came about because Luthien was already pregnant with Dior when she died (the first time), the fact would would have rated a mention somewhere. Seems like an important point to leave out altogether.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

5. Why didn't Sauron forge the One ring during the first Age (other than the fact that he was serving Morgoth)? I understand that he defected from Morgoth and did not participate in the War of Wrath after his defeat in Tol Sirion. He could have departed into the far East and began his forging there, for the One would enhance his strength and anchor his spirit to Arda. Or could it be that the forging of the ring was a two-way thing: that he needed to provide the lore to the elves, so that he, in turn, can learn their skill and craft to produce the One?

The latter is true - he needed the elves.



6. There was this passage about Saruman and how he was deeply in the lore of ring-making, that had he found his way in Orodruin, he would've found the missing links in his research and would have produced his very own ring of power (not the puny trinket he showed off to Gandalf). If this had happened, would his ring be less mighty than Sauron's, considering how the Valar clothed him in flesh and restricting much of his innate powers? Whereas Sauron had no restrictions and had all access to his maiarin power, free to dispense as he wished. And if he had succeeded, using Sauron's formula, would his ring also be subject to Sauron's?

I'm not certain that Saruman's power was really less than Sauron's ... he was merely prohibited from using his power openly against Sauron. That doesn't mean he didn't have power - he just wasn't supposed to use it.

The being "clothed in flesh" part is tricky though - it seemed to be a limitation, in that if Saruman or Gandalf died they weren't free to resurrect themselves: they had to depend on the Valar's mercy (or indeed, perhaps Eru's).

Trickier still is the question of what effect the One Ring would have on someone like Saruman - he's clothed in a man-like body (or hröa), but he has an immortal spirit (or fëa). Sure, you can argue that this is true for many of the Ainur, but they generally aren't tied to their hröa in the way the Istari are.

It's difficult to say how "powerful" Saruman could become. Gandalf felt that Saruman would always be inferior, but that is because Saruman was imitating Sauron - and imitations or counterfeits are never well-regarded in Tolkien's world.


10. The breaking of Saruman's staff left him nearly powerless. Is it possible that the Istari can only work magic through them (perhaps part of their conditions to their mission in M.E.), and are significantly less without?

I really think that the staff is partly symbolic, otherwise you could defeat a Wizard simply by breaking his staff. To me the staff is in one sense only a badge of office ... like the crown of a King. A King without a crown is still a King. However, I imagine that a staff may be of assistance to a Wizard. It seems to help to have a staff ... but no, I don't think that the staff is the only source of a Wizard's power. Otherwise Saruman could have just gotten another staff...

[Inziladun]

I'm not certain that Saruman's power was really less than Sauron's ... he was merely prohibited from using his power openly against Sauron. That doesn't mean he didn't have power - he just wasn't supposed to use it.

Actually Saruman is said to have been a lesser sprit, as far as Maian hierarchy went, than Sauron. There are also a couple of other indicators that say Sauron was superior.

....Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark sprit, mightier than he. UT The Istari

Also, consider how Sauron was able to dominate Saruman through the Palantír of Minas Ithil.

Trickier still is the question of what effect the One Ring would have on someone like Saruman - he's clothed in a man-like body (or hröa), but he has an immortal spirit (or fëa). Sure, you can argue that this is true for many of the Ainur, but they generally aren't tied to their hröa in the way the Istari are.

It's difficult to say how "powerful" Saruman could become. Gandalf felt that Saruman would always be inferior, but that is because Saruman was imitating Sauron - and imitations or counterfeits are never well-regarded in Tolkien's world.

Gandalf still apparently considered that Saruman had at least a chance to vanquish Sauron and claim his throne, if he could obtain the Ring. And knowing the nature of the Istari as well as the power of the One, Gandalf was probably the greatest authority on the subject except for Saruman himself.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Gandalf still apparently considered that Saruman had at least a chance to vanquish Sauron and claim his throne, if he could obtain the Ring. And knowing the nature of the Istari as well as the power of the One, Gandalf was probably the greatest authority on the subject except for Saruman himself.

Yes ... well we can assume that a lesser Maia with the One Ring (or an exact equivalent) might well be able to defeat a Ringless Sauron.

As Nerwen says, it's hard to compare entities at times. Gandalf was surely not as powerful as Sauron when it came to subjugating the peoples of Middle Earth - but Gandalf was far wiser than Sauron. His power was not in exercising domination but rather in giving guidance, inspiration and counsel.

Saruman should have been wiser than Sauron too, but he strayed from the path of wisdom by attempting to set himself up as another Dark Lord. The Ring's influence on Saruman was so insidious that he was being corrupted just by the mere desire of it. Of course his use of the Palantír accelerated this.

[Lainadann]

Whoever wore the one had power over all the other rings but relative to their own power they had to begin with. The realms of Lorien and Rivendell were preserved by the power of the rings so it stands to reason that Saruman being one of the wise, should he have gained the ring for himself and being in origin more or less equal with Sauron (interstingly both of Aules household) would have become as powerful as he and be able to defeat all before him. Saurons power was mostly in the ring itself and he feared any who had the strength to wield it against him.

I'm just speculating of course but it's possible that the ring would in a sense allow the full expression of Sarumans power that, being incarnate in flesh, he could never otherwise achieve.