Beyond the sea?

[mattyclug1]

Does tolkien talk about men and people beyond the sea (besides Valinor).If so tell me

[Lord of Angmar]

Beyond the Sea there is nothing but the Undying Lands. Numenor was far off the coasts of Middle-earth, but it was sunken in the Second Age. The only places in Ea inhabited by mortals are Middle Earth and the Hither Lands (both of which together are loosely classified as Middle Earth). Hope that helps.

[Beren87]

And of course, Tol Eressëa, the lonely Isle. Elves lived there, it's (I guess) considered the westernmost point of the Undying Lands.

[Iarwain]

I think you mean easternmost, Beren, unless my idea of the set up of Arda is very messed up (which wouldn't be the first time). But anyway, after Aman there is the other, outer sea, which runs all the way to the doors of night, but after the fall of Numenor presumably led to the easternmost part of middle earth (whatever lies beyond Harad).

Iarwain

[Beren87]

I think you mean easternmost, Beren,

That would be, of course, what I meant. Thank you Iarwain. I was thinking of sailing west and mis-typed.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Mmm, I think that Beleguer, after the removal of the Undying Lands, is probably designed to correspond to the Pacific. Spans a very large portion of the world globe, with Middle-Earth (the continents, or at least the Old World) all on the other side.

Talking of continents, I seem to remember a quote from somewhere (not in any of the major books, perhaps in a letter or HoME or something) that talks about another, smaller, unpopulated and very little-documented continent, to the East of Middle-Earth -- the supposed origin of the Americas. I think I probably came accross this thing here, actually. Does anyone know anything about this, or could I possibly have been mistaken? (or simply dreamed it up)

[Lord of Angmar]

Hmm, I had never heard of such a continent, Gwaihir, but upon checking Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-Earth, it does distinctly show on the world map an entirely separate continent, the Dark Lands, separated from the eastern coasts of the Hither Lands by the East Sea. Interesting that you sould say the Professor considered this the "supposed origin of the Americas." I shall have to look into this further.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

In the Ambarkanta, HoME 4, 'The Shapping of Middle Earth', there are some maps that Tolkien draw. There is a map corresponding to the First Age, in which at the eastern side there ia a continent called the 'Burnt Lands of the Sun'. The Eastern Sea, probably the origin of the Pacific Ocean, is between this continent and Endor. smilies/wink.gif

Here there is an on-line version of this map smilies/wink.gif
http://www.duvendor.hpg.ig.com.br/Diversos/Mapas/Full_Image/Mapas_Era4_Sol.jpg

[The Saucepan Man]

Amarie, I never realised that map was drawn by Tolkien himself. I have exactly the same map as part of a series of maps in David Day's Illustrated Tolkien Encyclopedia showing the development of Arda from Creation through to the Fourth Age of the Sun. According to those maps, the Burnt Lands of the Sun become the Sunlands, which in turn eventually become North and South America. Another continent, called the Dark Lands, mysteriously appears in the Fourth Age and looks like it becomes either Australasia or Antarctica (or possibly both).

So, are those maps reliable then? I have never really been sure.

[Iarwain]

Though I am no expert, I've long considered those maps (the ones displayed in the Illustrated Tolkien Encyclopedia) to be nothing more than wild, colorful suppositions by encyclopedia contributors. They don't match the tolkien style. There are no solid lines, the artist/cartographer used very odd colors, and they generally give very little information. Other than the red in Bilbo's treasure map, and the slight use of color to distinguish labels and such I cannot think of any other maps by tolkien that show this sort of collage-like painting smear. Until proven otherwise, I hold my opinion. This is fan art, of a commercial sort.

Iarwain

[ July 27, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Saucepan Man, I have only found one on-line version of the real map draw by Tolkien. In this page:

http://5db8d0e6c1fcd9db551cc5c2b9769991.mitglied.lycos.de/Haerangil/index.htm

Go to Articles, at the bottom of the page, an click on the link:
The New and the Old - a comparison of Tokien´s original Sketch with my new Map

In this new page, there is the original Tolkien map (well, ... draft of a map), at the bottom of the page. The contents of this map are the same than in the one I linked previously. This map (Map 5) is in the Ambarkanta, toghether with other 4 maps.

As Christopher Tolkien says, JRR Tolkien draw them at an early stage of his mithology, and he never changed them to fit with its later evolution. Therefore, they are 'reliable' to a certain extent .., but it is true that they were drawn by Tolkien himself smilies/wink.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

Thanks for the link, Amarie. smilies/smile.gif

Tolkien's draft clearly suggests that Middle-earth subsequently formed the continents of Europe, Africa and Asia. To this extent the maps in David Day's book match up. But those maps seem to make the mistake of portraying the Dark Land and the Sunlands as two separate continents, whereas they appear to be one and the same on JRRT's draft.

So, I wonder where David Day (or whoever drew the maps in his book) got the idea that there were two continents in addition to Middle-earth, rather than just the one portrayed in Tolkien's draft?

[Iarwain]

Proof enough, though I still don't like most of the illustrations in that book. I'll accept that map as Tolkien-based. It really does look like a middle-age sketch of the world. Interesting.

Iarwain

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

In HoME 4, Christpher lists the names on this map or sketch, because they are quite difficult to decipher (I couldn't understand most of them smilies/frown.gif ):

The East: Walls of the Sun; Burnt Land of the Sun; Outer Seas

Central regions: Hither Lands; Inland Sea; Straits of the World; East Sea; Dark Land (South Land)

Matching the map with this list of names, I think that the Burnt Land of the Sun (the pre-Americas) is in fact the semicircle in the rigth side of the map, beyond the walls of the sun. If I am right, it is represented as a separate continent, not being part of the Dark Lands.

I don't have David Day's Encyclopedia, and therefore I don't know if his drawings match Tolkien maps.

Hope this helps smilies/wink.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, I think that you are right, Amarie. And that accords with the Maps in Day's Encyclopedia, with the Sunlands developing into the Americas and the Dark Lands developing into either Australasia or Antarctica (or more likely both).

Although the Dark Lands do not appear in Day's Maps until the Third Age of the Sun. Possibly they were raised as a consequence of the sinking of Numenor and the Change of the World (ie the separation of Valinor and the move from a flat world to a globe) at the end of the Second Age.

Anyway, I am glad. At last I feel that I can rely a little more on those Maps in Day's book. smilies/smile.gif

[william]

what about those annoying sleepy isles earindel had to sail through you landed and went to sleep forever (or until the second coming or something) were be those and what happened to the poor souls on them when the world was remade?