Did Elves Use Magic?

[Galadriel]

This question struck me while reading The Hobbit (again). It is stated that Thranduil uses 'magic' doors and that no one can escape them.
Anyone willing to explain, because I certainly am muddled.:mad:
By the way, I'm not talking about magic like the Palantir or the 'magic' that Galadriel uses...I'm talking about that Harry Potter kind of magic where...well, the doors are simply sealed by magic :p

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Hi Galadriel.

I am re-reading the books now, which fills me with joy and satisfaction let me tell you. I've just met Gollum again, with riddles in the dark. ;)

To answer your question, isn't 'magic' just a word which people use for skills they cannot understand? What makes sense to an elf is inconceivable to men and hobbits, and so we call it magic.

[Nerwen]

This question struck me while reading The Hobbit (again). It is stated that Thranduil uses 'magic' doors and that no one can escape them.
Anyone willing to explain, because I certainly am muddled.:mad:

Short answer: yes. Think of the Three Rings, the Mirror of Galadriel, the various enchanted objects that occur throughout the books, the spells both Luthien and Finrod use in "Beren and Luthien"... if that's not magic, what is it?

However, Elves don't (at Galadriel doesn't) appear to like the "Westron" word "magic", apparently because it has the wrong connotations (i.e. of being unnatural).

EDIT:X'd with Eomer.

[Nerwen]

By the way, I'm not talking about magic like the Palantir or the 'magic' that Galadriel uses...I'm talking about that Harry Potter kind of magic where...well, the doors are simply sealed by magic :p

Okay... you added that last bit since I made my first reply.

What's the difference?:confused:

[Rumil]

Thranduil and co. certainly used 'magic' items,

eg the swords that glowed blue at the Battle of the Five armies, probably the doors, though they might possibly be some high technology - magnetic locks?? Also the lanterns which iirc are described in Mirkwood, like the 1st age elven lanterns.

Thay also seem to have used 'magic spells' of some sort, just like Gandalf. When Bilbo and the dwarves approached the elven parties in the Forest, they fall asleep, which has to be some sort of magic.

Though as Eomer and Nerwen pointed out, this might well not be the right terminology.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

By the way, I'm not talking about magic like the Palantir or the 'magic' that Galadriel uses...I'm talking about that Harry Potter kind of magic where...well, the doors are simply sealed by magic :p

What's the difference?:confused:

I am not sure if I understand this correctly either, but if the idea is of magic as a "science working on the basis of waving a wand and shouting certain words in certain order", then I certainly say: no. Even more in the case of Thranduil, who is a wood-elf, and thus even if it existed normally among other Elves, I would think him far from such "ordered" way of doing it.

But generally I think the Elves are sort of "above" that kind of "primitive magic", their "magic" is more subtle, even though it has a lot to do with words (very likely), the power is in the word itself, and it can be any word, it does not have to be almost-unpronounceable word (which is anyway just a "normal" word, only in some language which is unknown to the speaker and thus, is mysterious).

As it was said, the Elves used magic - from the point of view of the mortals, who are, after all, the assumed readers (and writer) of the Hobbit. But this "magic" was a completely mundane thing for them. It was closely related to art and I think it was only another, more powerful way to influence the world around themselves similar to the way humans do it (like carving sculptures etc.). The sentence about Thranduil's doors simply means that "they were kept closed by some way which could not be explained on the basis of Bilbo or the Dwarves' mundane experience". It does not mean that you had to say "alohomora" when opening them.

[Rumil]

On the other hand Legate there's Gandalf at the doors of Moria

I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten-score of them without searching in my mind

and

Annon edhellen, edro hi ammen!
Fennas nogothrim, lasto beth lammen!

Notice that Gandalf touched the door with his staff, and repeated the spell in different orders speeds and volumes.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, but as you can see, we are talking "password" here. It is not that Gandalf would be trying to remember whether professor Flitwick said it should be "alohomora" or "avada kedavra", it is trying to remember a password and experimenting with its intonation. Even the "Annon edhellen..." etc., even though it means (sorry for low knowledge of Elvish) something along the lines "Elven gate, open for me, Dwarven door, hear my words", it is not (given the logic of the text) an equivalent of Alohomora, but just another attempt of a password - apparently such a password existed somewhere at some time.

So not actual magic here. Even though I agree Gandalf IS of course meant to be a "wizard" and so close to the idea of wizards we usually have, but still, as it is said in the Silmarillion, UT or generally in places about the Istari, even the "wizard powers" of the Istari were not so much of a "magic" as we know it, but again some powers understood by the common folk as magical.

[mark12_30]

I'm tempted to say that elven "magic" simply is a result of their deeper understanding of the undercurrents of things that are.

Legolas can hear the stones in Hollin: "Deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us, but they are gone."

Perhaps if Legolas had thought to listen to the doors of Moria, they would have spoken to him too. I wonder if the inscription distracted him from it.

Or do only those stones speak that elves have wrought?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That sounds actually quite good!

And as for who is able to hear that... I think it has something to do with the familiarity of the Elves with such things. A human sculptor who spends all his life with the stones can notice a lot more from them than some random person does, and Elves have centuries for that. And even Gimli, actually, when trying to figure out what kind of Gollum is following them from Moria, says:

"I hear nothing but the night speech of plant and stone."

It may be just poetic license, but maybe not. All the beings of Middle-Earth seem to be far closer to their world than humans usually are. Well, like I said, they have centuries for that; but they also seem to be a bit more perceptive and caring of things around them.

[Galadriel]

Okay... you added that last bit since I made my first reply.

What's the difference?:confused:

Ummm...because I have not really come across any doors that are sealed by magic (except the ones at Moria) :P
Oh wait, didn't I just answer my own question?
O.O

[Galadriel55]

In my opinion, the "magic" that elves and wizards and Nazguls do really isn't magic - more like the willpower of the person put into words and actions. Galadriel says that with her will she can ake the mirror show whatever she wants, but hobbits would call the mirror magic. Melian, with her thought and will, made the "wall" around Doriath. Morgoth kept Hurin glued to the seat in Thangorodrim with his will. I thinkt that the incantations really are just a way of expressing everything. The words don't really matter. If, lets say, Pippin tried to light a fire with "Anun on adriath ammin" he won't succeed, not because he's not a wizard, but because he lacks the inner power behind the words.
Even today, in the real world, very "talented" people can do physical actions with thoughts or read minds or that sort of thing.

PS: Melon isn't an incantation, it's a password, so it doesn't matter who says it.

[xMellrynxMaidenx]

To us, it's magic. Because they use powers that we can't explain. As Nerwen said, the elves didn't like the use of the westron word, "Magic" because of the wrong connotations used.

In my opinion, and I think someone may have had a similar idea, Elves were just more...in tune with nature and the things around them because they've had longer to get in touch with the things around them. It doesn't necessarily mean they use magic.

Edit:Legate was the person who had the similar idea lol. They've basically summed what I was thinking up and even described it better than I could have. :)

[Galadriel55]

I agree with Mellrynx about the nature part of it. So it's like nature helps them achieve their goals...in a way