the elessar

[ecthelion]

Who made it? In the book of unfinished tales it says at first that enerdhil made it and that the original was brought back with gandalf. The second version says that enerdhil made it and that celebrimbor made a second one for galadrial (and he also says he was from gondolin which is interesting because in the silmarillian it says that he went with his father to nargothrond). And in the third version it says that celebrimbor made it (he still lives in gondolin) and also made the second one.
I dont know about anyone else, but this is confusing. Celebrimbor definitly seems the most likely, but in the silmarillion it never says he went to gondolin and in the book of unfinished tales tolkien says that enerdhil was the greater of the two.

Sorry if this is confusing, but I need help.

[Galin]

It is a bit confusing, but there are two internal variations on purpose, according to the text itself -- in other words Tolkien intended that there be two competing tales concerning the Elessar-stone, within Middle-earth.

The Celebrimbor matter is external however (Tolkien changing his mind). When JRRT first wrote The Elessar Celebrimbor was not yet imagined as a Feanorian -- but in any case Tolkien ultimately published that he was a descendant of Feanor. I would argue then, that with this external change there is really no reason to put Celebrimbor in Gondolin.

So, with respect to the end note in Unfinished Tales (following the 'text proper' concerning the stone), where Celebrimbor replaces Enerdhil in Gondolin -- once Celebrimbor becomes Feanorian in Tolkien's world -- do we then imagine that Enerdhil goes back into the text, so to speak? In other words, does he then replace Celebrimbor in Gondolin, after Celebrimbor appears to have replaced him?

Who knows? These are essentially draft texts were are dealing with, and I'm pretty sure we had another thread around here somewhere, looking at certain arguably 'problematic' issues surrounding The Elessar...

For example, like why Galadriel needed the stone in the Third Age, with respect to the 'Olorin version' I mean.

[Galin]

For example, like why Galadriel needed the stone in the Third Age, with respect to the 'Olorin version' I mean.

I think you are here not employing, in enough measure, what you call a brain dear Galin, if that is your real name by the way.

Why can't Tolkien have intended this to be a visit from Olorin, not Gandalf the Istar, at a time when the power of the Elessar jool could be employed, but not Nenya. In other words, not necessarily in the Third Age, when of course Galadriel can and does employ Nenya for preservation power, notably in Lothlorien.

Haven't you ever noticed before how much Tolkien employs the name Olorin in this section of the tale, rather than Gandalf, and that his parenthetical reference 'who was known in Middle-earth as Mithrandir' could easily refer to days that followed this visit in history, to days after the Istari came to Middle-earth.

Come on!

Plus, isn't there a general reference in later writing to Olorin visiting folk in Middle-earth? But I suppose you are too lazy to look that up given the mere possibity of it existing only in my poor memory... so good day to you sir.

Really.

[Inziladun]

Why can't Tolkien have intended this to be a visit from Olorin, not Gandalf the Istar, at a time when the power of the Elessar jool could be employed, but not Nenya. In other words, not necessarily in the Third Age, when of course Galadriel can and does employ Nenya for preservation power, notably in Lothlorien.

I'm inclined to doubt the Elessar would have been brought by Olórin prior to the Third Age. I can't at the moment recall the reference to Olórin physically visiting Middle-earth; only that The Silmarillion credits him with walking unseen among the Elves at times, or in the form of one of them. It doesn't seem likely to me that he would have been allowed to go to Middle-earth alone, seeing what havoc had been wrought by some of his fellow Maia (Sauron and Balrogs). The coming of the Istari also seems such a monumental event in the history that I think it would have been cheapened by the notion of Olórin having been to Middle-earth and spoken to some there already.
The recurrence of the naming "Olórin" could be explained by the idea that the Istari had only recently arrived and had not yet been given their Middle-earth names. Also, "Olórin" would likely have been known to Galadriel from her time in Valinor.

[Galin]

Also, "Olórin" would likely have been known to Galadriel from her time in Valinor.

To me the passage from The Silmarillion suggests that perhaps Olórin did not make himself known, in general anyway, as Olórin at least. But that said, he does appear to have been known to Glorfindel in Aman. And after Tolkien notes that Glorfindel had become a friend and follower of Olórin in Valinor, JRRT adds:

'That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.'

JRRT, Last Writings, Glorfindel II, The Peoples Of Middle-Earth

So, I'm thinking that Tolkien was possibly thinking that Olórin visited Galadriel here, before the Third Age...

... otherwise, I'm back to [if this is Gandalf the Istar and thus well into the Third Age]: why would Galadriel consider employing the Elessar stone when she can already use Nenya? Not that we can't think of a reason, perhaps, but so far it seems easier [for me] to think Tolkien imagined an earlier visit with the stone.

[Inziladun]

So, I'm thinking that Tolkien was possibly thinking that Olórin visited Galadriel here, before the Third Age...

A question I would have, is how did he get there, if before the other Istari?
In the UT essay The Istari, it tells that upon Gandalf's first meeting with Círdan when disembarking at Mithlond, the latter

....divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

If Gandalf had arrived there before, that would not have been the "first meeting" with Círdan, and I get the idea that no ship from the West could have come there without his knowledge.
I suppose Olórin could have "flown" disembodied over the Sea, as Sauron did from the wreck of Númenor, but that seems like a very long shot.

: why would Galadriel consider employing the Elessar stone when she can already use Nenya? Not that we can't think of a reason, perhaps, but so far it seems easier [for me] to think Tolkien imagined an earlier visit with the stone.

Or, there's the other tale, that Celebrimbor made it for Galadriel. No conflict about Nenya there.

[Galin]

A question I would have, is how did he get there, if before the other Istari? In the UT essay The Istari, it tells that upon Gandalf's first meeting with Círdan when disembarking at Mithlond, the latter (...) I suppose Olórin could have "flown" disembodied over the Sea, as Sauron did from the wreck of Númenor, but that seems like a very long shot.

In the entry for the base PHAN- [Words, Phrases And Passages, Parma Eldalamberon] it's said:

'But it is often mentioned in the legends that certain of the Valar, and occasionally of the Maiar, 'passed over the Sea', and appeared in Middle-earth. (Notably Orome, Ulmo, and Yavanna) The Valar and Maiar were essentially 'spirits', according to Elvish tradition given before the making of Ea. They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Ea where they desired to be.*

*subject only to special limitations voluntarily taken upon themselves or decreed by Eru. (...)

That 'footnote' is much longer, but I don't recall anything that notably limits the idea here, keeping Melian in mind for example, who passed to Middle-earth and back, seemingly. I suppose one could argue that Tolkien ultimately rejected this too, since an arguably abbreviated [by comparison] explanation of the fanar of the Valar was published in The Road Goes Ever On, but the lack might also be due to brevity there. Hard to say.

Or, there's the other tale, that Celebrimbor made it for Galadriel. No conflict about Nenya there.

Heh, well yes, and formerly I thought Tolkien was perhaps purposely making 'version A' questionable by describing this scenario, but even if so it remains problematic within its own version. That is, 'version A' is still internal, it's intended to be an in story variation, and in that context I think it's a rather notable point of chronology -- which fades away however, if Olorin passed over Sea...

... like Melian did ;)

[Ivriniel]

I'm highly disinclined to imagine that the Olorin we knew as Gandalf, "...known as Olorin in the West...", bore any Elessar anywhere as a pre-Istari Maian Spirit. It's too obscure, though a theoretical, I suppose. Low likelihood one.

He did not manufacture it, and irrespective of the competing narratives on the darned Elessar :) we knew he did not manufacture it. As a lesser artefact (certainly not as groovy or with as much goo goo as the Palantiri or The Rings), it makes much more sense that it was an Elfy making. That has implications for inferences about it, its keeper, who held it, distributed it and why.

We knew Galadriel had it, TA. Celebrimbor gifted it to her, in one of the variations of its origin while he stalked her to gettiton with him. I believe he asked for a lock of her hair, in fact, which she denied him, (which on an aside, adds to the significance of Gimli's request. Looks like good ole Galadriel kept her affections for Durin's Folk in tact, after SA). Then there was all that stuff about Celebrimbor and Galadriel hanging out together in the Ost-In-Edhil as they worked towards preserving Elvendom in Middle Earth. He knew she wanted Elvendom-y things in Middle Earth and so, during his stalking, made the Elessar. Love buying - creepy man, erm, I mean Elf :). Seems like a consistent narrative thread, at that time he was hot for her. As I understood the emphasis in why it was crafted (a pre-Ring assay in attempts to do what The Rings did, but better), it is also consistent with the improvements upon the Elessar in the Gwaith-i-Mirdain's artefacts--the Rings of Power. That kind of narrative consistency is absent from competing models of inference.

That's why the competing narrative, with an odd name--Enerdhil--in an obscure footnote, firstly, and then the retina-burning idea of Celebrimbor in Gondolin. Not. Once Celebrimbor is tied to Feanor's line, there's no way in any abstraction that his presence makes sense in Gondolin. The Seven Sons of Feanor were to Gondolin (the estrangement between Fingolfin, his line, and Feanor's) what chalk is to cheese, which I think is what Galin is emphasising.

[Mithalwen]

Wasn't it Feanor whom Galadriel refused a lock of hair?

[Ivriniel]

Wasn't it Feanor whom Galadriel refused a lock of hair?

It's been a while since I re-read. I'll go check UFT and my other tomes.....cheers :)

[Galin]

Yes it was Feanor [The Shibboleth of Feanor] who was refused by Galadriel... concerning the Nerwenian hair matter.

Another possibility is that Olórin took ship to Edhellond in the Second Age. Not that I necessarily would choose version A over B, but again this merely allows a way to step around the question of Nenya in the Third Age.

Granted A notes that the 'years' of her exile were wearing heavy on Galadriel, but I think there is still plenty of years in the Second Age for this, before Numenor fell. Another thing that threw me a bit before was the brief statement that Olórin had arrived with the Elessar out of the West, as if referencing only one trip; but that too seems vague enough to me.

And yes I think Celebrimbor the Feanorean was a later idea than the text of the Elessar, which is why I plug Enerdhil back in as the Elf from Gondolin without Celebrimbor. Again we are dealing with a still private [to Tolkien] text, not necessarily updated after Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean [although there was some revision regarding Galadriel's ban, for example].


With respect to the first version of the two competing Elessar tales, Hammond and Scull (Reader's Guide) also note that, in comparison to what was already published: '... the tale seems to suggest that there was a breach of trust, in that Galadriel did not keep the Elessar for the one destined to receive it'...

... because in The Lord of the Rings Galadriel said that she had given the stone to her daughter. In the second version Tolkien explicitly refers to Galadriel giving the stone to her daughter, so it doesn't seem like he had forgotten this. I suppose Galadriel still could be said to have 'handed it on when the time came' as technically the jewel had come to her once again to give to Aragorn (if we look at Gandalf's statement more as a prediction), though even so, she handed it on before Elessar came to receive it.

I noted this in the thread: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15599

[cellurdur]

Like with the Princes of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left two versions. I personally now favour the version of Celebrimbor making a second Elessar.

The question of Gandalf turning up in the Second Age would raise all sorts of problems. At that point Sauron had not yet grown so powerful that the West could not defeat him unassisted.

[Galin]

Like with the Princes of Dol Amroth, Tolkien left two versions. I personally now favour the version of Celebrimbor making a second Elessar.

Is it like this however ?

In other words, are there two [I]internal versions of something relating to the Princes of Dol Amroth?

[cellurdur]

Is it like this however ?

In other words, are there two [I]internal versions of something relating to the Princes of Dol Amroth?

Well I assume they are 'internal'. We have the one story where the Princes are descendants of Imrazor and Mithrellas.

Then we have the other version where the princes are close relatives to Elendil and he personally raises them to the rank of 'prince'. This is the version I tend to favour, but we have two accounts, which though are not definitely conflicting like the case with the Elessar are not harmonious and cannot really be forced to fit together.

[Galin]

Well, sorry to be pedantic but do we know these two versions are not Tolkien simply changing his mind?

I have a vague memory of CJRT giving a possible explanation about how to reconcile two 'somethings' about Dol Amroth... but I'm pretty sure there , he also admits or suggests the likelihood of these being two accounts that were not necessarily both meant to be confused from a story-internal perspective.

I mean we could have more than two versions of [I]The Elessar if we merely look at what JRRT wrote about it, but The Elessar as a text is clearly treating the variant tales as both found within the subcreated world...

... which is why, as I say above: it's one thing to chose version B as a reaction to something seemingly problematic in A, but version A was not merely a discarded idea by comparison [Tolkien rejecting A for B], and is still intended as a tale within the conceit.

[cellurdur]

Well, sorry to be pedantic but do we know these two versions are not Tolkien simply changing his mind?

I have a vague memory of CJRT giving a possible explanation about how to reconcile two 'somethings' about Dol Amroth... but I'm pretty sure there , he also admits or suggests the likelihood of these being two accounts that were not necessarily both meant to be confused from a story-internal perspective.

I mean we could have more than two versions of [I]The Elessar if we merely look at what JRRT wrote about it, but The Elessar as a text is clearly treating the variant tales as both found within the subcreated world...

... which is why, as I say above: it's one thing to chose version B as a reaction to something seemingly problematic in A, but version A was not merely a discarded idea by comparison [Tolkien rejecting A for B], and is still intended as a tale within the conceit.

This is why I said I assumed they are 'internal'. However, even if this is a case of Tolkien changing his mind we have Imrahil's words that the story of extra Elf blood flowing through the veins of the princes is internal.

'So it is said in the lore of my land'

So we can accept that there is at least one internal story of the Princes being descendant of an elf.

As for whether this was simply Tolkien changing his mind or two external stories, Christopher Tolkien seemed to favour the latter idea.

'While not impossible (merging the two stories) these explanations to save consistency seem to me less likely that that of two distinct and independent 'traditions' of the origins of the Lords of Dol Amroth'

[Inziladun]

... which is why, as I say above: it's one thing to chose version B as a reaction to something seemingly problematic in A, but version A was not merely a discarded idea by comparison [Tolkien rejecting A for B], and is still intended as a tale within the conceit.

In UT, the variant stories of the Elessar are said by CJRT to be on the same four page text. After the Gondolin made jewel was lost, the text reads:

In ages after there was again an Elessar, and of this two things are said, though which is true only the Wise could say, who are now gone.

Curiously, the text ends with:

The Elessar was made in Gondolin by Celebrimbor....But that passed away. But the second Elessar was made also by Celebrimbor in Eregion at the request of the Lady Galadriel.

It's difficult to see why, in light of the introduced ambiguity in the main body of the story, Tolkien would end in such a declarative fashion about which version was the truth.

[Galin]

As for whether this was simply Tolkien changing his mind or two external stories, Christopher Tolkien seemed to favour the latter idea.
'While not impossible (merging the two stories) these explanations to save consistency seem to me less likely that that of two distinct and independent 'traditions' of the origins of the Lords of Dol Amroth'

But that's the same in my opinion, so I'm a bit confused here. That is, if we have Tolkien changing his mind, then we have two external stories.

[Galin]

It's difficult to see why, in light of the introduced ambiguity in the main body of the story, Tolkien would end in such a declarative fashion about which version was the truth.

My explanation is that this 'concluding' section of the text is not a conclusion of the text proper, but an external summation with an intended revision from Tolkien regarding Celebrimbor and Enerdhil. Christopher Tolkien describes...

'Enerdhil appears in no other writing; and the concluding words of this text show that Celebrimbor was to displace him as the maker of the Elessar in Gondolin.'

And the seeming clarity that the first jool passed away could be a revision too, but I'm more inclined to think this is due to the brevity of summing up both tales. As I posted earlier, the further external factor is, in my opinion, that when Celebrimbor becomes a Feanorean he is arguably not going to remain a smith in Gondolin.

Thus if we take The Elessar as 'canon' it arguably reads better with Enerdhil anway!

In my opinion. Again to me it doesn't read like part of the text, but a summation of the two with an 'intended' change that never occurred.

[Inziladun]

I still favor the Celebrimbor version. However, returning to your question of why Olórin would have brought it to Galadriel, if she already possessed Nenya, I have an idea or two.

In the first place, it's possible Gandalf, when he arrived at the Havens in the Third Age, was coming in blind, maybe knowing little or nothing of the Rings of Power. If he'd been given the Elessar to pass to Galadriel, it might not have occurred to him to wonder why she needed it. Also, he made a point of telling her it was not intended for her sole keeping forever, but that she was to give it to a certain person in the future.
I wonder too, if the powers of the Elessar and the Three, though similar in healing properties, were nonetheless subtly different, owing to the gifts and intentions of their respective makers.

[cellurdur]

But that's the same in my opinion, so I'm a bit confused here. That is, if we have Tolkien changing his mind, then we have two external stories.

I don't think it is since both stories are internal. The legend of the Princes being descended from an Elf is something we hear about in LOTR. It is a legend that Imrahil addresses. This is not a case of Tolkien changing his mind for me, but rather adding another version ( a more accurate one) I believe.


As for the Elessar if Gandalf had brought it in the 3rd Age then Galadriel would have had no use of it. From the way Earendil used the Elessar, it seems to me like it had similar powers to the Silmarillion. They were similar in design. The Elessar captured the light of the corrupted sun, but the Silmarillions were not only superior in make but had the pure uncorrupted light.

[Ivriniel]

I've refreshed my reading on the Elessar, after having read materials here on thread as well, found that eye opening, because I also discovered why memory encoding tends to go the way it does, by looking at materials here and books at hand. And comparing.

For the Elessar version as: Olorin chatting to Galadriel in the woods, and Olorin bringing back an item for her from the West--after an obscure name we'll never hear anywhere else 'Enerdhil' made it FA and when it passed away. Where has that occurred elsewhere (artefact return from Valinor), post FA, except for the Palantiri and for very special reason, on Numenor, nigh to the Uttermost West and for comms.

The competing version has the difficult notion of Celebrimbor in Gondolin. And the idea of a second making is, um, okay-ish in my sense. The courtship jewell for Galadriel.

I found some other items, on an aside very interesting. The idea that Melkor is somehow 'affecting' the sun from the Void! And, perhaps, that was what Tolkien meant by the change in Middle Earth and lessening of Elves and Men and the Dunedain over time?

--and--there was reference to the Elessar somehow being exempt of the taint of the One (Ring) because it was made before it! WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

There is another in-text item I cannot square. As noted above by another poster: how or why does Arwen get the jewel (or rights to it) through Celebrian?

Then I got wondering if the Elessar (doing greening/revival things) had that kind of 'radiance' effect in Gondor, upon the Dunedain of Isildur. Does this mean that Aragorn's realm was kinda being preserved longer? What of the influence on the White Tree? Did the sapling sprout because Aragorn arrived with the Elessar? And how did Gandalf know to look at Mindoluin for the new sapling?

[cellurdur]

I've refreshed my reading on the Elessar, after having read materials here on thread as well, found that eye opening, because I also discovered why memory encoding tends to go the way it does, by looking at materials here and books at hand. And comparing.

For the Elessar version as: Olorin chatting to Galadriel in the woods, and Olorin bringing back an item for her from the West--after an obscure name we'll never hear anywhere else 'Enerdhil' made it FA and when it passed away. Where has that occurred elsewhere (artefact return from Valinor), post FA, except for the Palantiri and for very special reason, on Numenor, nigh to the Uttermost West and for comms.

The competing version has the difficult notion of Celebrimbor in Gondolin. And the idea of a second making is, um, okay-ish in my sense. The courtship jewell for Galadriel.

I found some other items, on an aside very interesting. The idea that Melkor is somehow 'affecting' the sun from the Void! And, perhaps, that was what Tolkien meant by the change in Middle Earth and lessening of Elves and Men and the Dunedain over time?

--and--there was reference to the Elessar somehow being exempt of the taint of the One (Ring) because it was made before it! WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

There is another in-text item I cannot square. As noted above by another poster: how or why does Arwen get the jewel (or rights to it) through Celebrian?

Then I got wondering if the Elessar (doing greening/revival things) had that kind of 'radiance' effect in Gondor, upon the Dunedain of Isildur. Does this mean that Aragorn's realm was kinda being preserved longer? What of the influence on the White Tree? Did the sapling sprout because Aragorn arrived with the Elessar? And how did Gandalf know to look at Mindoluin for the new sapling?
I think Gandalf might have read something in the records. He thoroughly was researching the ring and maybe he came across something, which the Stewards had long forgotten. Or maybe it was one of those small things that were revealed to him by Eru when he died.

I don't think it's any great mystery as to why Arwen would inherit the jewel through her mother. Once Galadriel had use of her Ring, she would not need the Elessar so why not pass it to her daughter.

Morgoth's corruption of Middle Earth was something he did before being forced into the void and is precisely why everything outside Aman is not quite what it once was. Black magic is drawing out the essence of Morgoth to perform 'magic' and is the only kind of magic men seem to be able to use.

During Aragorn's reign Gondor was greener and more beautiful than ever so it probably did. It probably not only renewed and revitalized the flora, but also the people. I imagine there was a great baby boom during the early part of his reign. Of course Aragorn would not have the power Galadriel, let alone Earendil had with the jewel.

[Ivriniel]

I think Gandalf might have read something in the records. He thoroughly was researching the ring and maybe he came across something, which the Stewards had long forgotten. Or maybe it was one of those small things that were revealed to him by Eru when he died.

Hey there Celludur :)

Yeah, could be--or perhaps Gandalf was (present) when the seed was planted? I'm imagining he had his eye on that ole tree? And maybe chatted to the then realmsmen to plant the seed for a rainy day. I wonder if he knew about when/why Galathilion bore a fruit. He was, after all, around when Telperion made a seed, and no doubt, this would have been one of those 'dinner table conversations' for Valinor. Some appreciation of the when, where and why the tree propagates may have been known to him, as the Maia he is.

I don't think it's any great mystery as to why Arwen would inherit the jewel through her mother. Once Galadriel had use of her Ring, she would not need the Elessar so why not pass it to her daughter.

Didn't Alatáriel give the Elessar directly to Aragorn?

Morgoth's corruption of Middle Earth was something he did before being forced into the void and is precisely why everything outside Aman is not quite what it once was. Black magic is drawing out the essence of Morgoth to perform 'magic' and is the only kind of magic men seem to be able to use.

What about the magic of Adunaic language users (the Blades of the Westernesse--barrow wights), Orthanc Stone etc, seemed to be free of 'taint' (but I get that generally, 'sorcery' was considered a black art and of Morgoth)....

and

Pukel Men magic (there are some citations I have that refer to untainted protective 'stone magic' of Pukel Men).

During Aragorn's reign Gondor was greener and more beautiful than ever so it probably did. It probably not only renewed and revitalized the flora, but also the people. I imagine there was a great baby boom during the early part of his reign. Of course Aragorn would not have the power Galadriel, let alone Earendil had with the jewel.

This is pretty interesting. I wonder what it did about lifespan matters. I also wonder how old Aragorn's kids lived. I imagine their lifespan was restored to that of, nigh, Elros (five hundred and something)

[cellurdur]

Hey there Celludur :)

Yeah, could be--or perhaps Gandalf was (present) when the seed was planted? I'm imagining he had his eye on that ole tree? And maybe chatted to the then realmsmen to plant the seed for a rainy day. I wonder if he knew about when/why Galathilion bore a fruit. He was, after all, around when Telperion made a seed, and no doubt, this would have been one of those 'dinner table conversations' for Valinor. Some appreciation of the when, where and why the tree propagates may have been known to him, as the Maia he is.

Possible, but we hear that Gandalf did not go to Gondor much in that time. The Sea Kings were too proud and too strong to listen to his council.

Didn't Alatáriel give the Elessar directly to Aragorn?
Yes, but Arwen was constantly travelling between Imladris and Lothlorien. It's not that surprising for her to have left it for Aragorn there or even sent it with Elronds sons (when they travelled there before the Fellowship left). Even at Rivendell Aragorn seemed aware he was going to be given the Elessar, since he request that Bilbo put a line about the stone in his song.

What about the magic of Adunaic language users (the Blades of the Westernesse--barrow wights), Orthanc Stone etc, seemed to be free of 'taint' (but I get that generally, 'sorcery' was considered a black art and of Morgoth)....

The Numenoreans are a special case, because they live on a Blessed Island apart from the world Morogth had tainted. They also are masters of science and much of what we call 'magic' is just an example of how sophisticated they were. They also were blessed by the Valar with gifts that man seemed to have enjoyed before they fell such as telepathic communication and a freedom from illness. That apart the nobles in Numenor were descendants of Melian and therefore could perform magic. The truly magical artifacts we see could be that divine power still shining through.

and

Pukel Men magic (there are some citations I have that refer to untainted protective 'stone magic' of Pukel Men).
The Pukel Men is a strange one. We really don't know and there are some dark suggestions that they were originally captured by Morgoth and experimented on. Really it's impossible for us to know and we can only speculate.

This is pretty interesting. I wonder what it did about lifespan matters. I also wonder how old Aragorn's kids lived. I imagine their lifespan was restored to that of, nigh, Elros (five hundred and something)
No I don't think any of Aragorn's descendants would have a lifespan even approaching his 210 years. Aragorn firmly states he is the Last Numenorean King. The long life Numenor had was not just due to the purity of their blood, but the way they adapted the Elvish lifestyle.

However, the biggest and main factor was that Numenor was free from the taint of Morgoth.The Numnoreans were living in a virtually Morgoth free environment unlike those of Gondor. This is something they could never get back.

That being said I think you are right in some part and for a little one while the people of Gondor may have enjoyed a small renaissance in longevity. We know that Faramir is the longest lived Steward since Mardil, but this is still only 120 and a far cry from the days of Elros. I would imagine that other noble families may have started reaching 100 on a regular basis, but nothing close to the Gondorians of old let alone those of Elros' day. Eomer for instance only reached 90.

[Ivriniel]

Possible, but we hear that Gandalf did not go to Gondor much in that time. The Sea Kings were too proud and too strong to listen to his council.

my knowledge for Istari timelines, when they arrived, the King in power, who that King courted and so on are not good atm. :) I'd need to do some super-sleuth work to make some inferences...

Yes, but Arwen was constantly travelling between Imladris and Lothlorien. It's not that surprising for her to have left it for Aragorn there or even sent it with Elronds sons (when they travelled there before the Fellowship left). Even at Rivendell Aragorn seemed aware he was going to be given the Elessar, since he request that Bilbo put a line about the stone in his song.

I'd given that some thought, and had decided that, should this idea apply, then Celebrian would have been in Middle Earth (when) Aragorn was betrothed to Arwen in Lothlorien. I don't have enough recall of dates to know when Celebrian was waylaid by Orcs in the Misty Mountains, when Elladan and Elrohir rescued her, and then when she departed for the West.

But--Celebrian would have needed to have been in Middle Earth when Aragorn was about 50 (unless she smelled out Arwen and Aragorn much sooner, when Aragorn was "newly to manhood", i.e. about 21? in Rivendell when he called Arwen 'Tinuviel'. I'm not sure she was--or was she?

About Numenorean 'magic'. I read somewhere it wasn't 'elfy magic' but a variant, was it about 'Lore' that I recall, versus a magick-y word. The contrast really stuck with me at the time, as it opened up a dimension about magical expression in Middle Earth I had not ever fathomed. But for the life of me, do you think I have ever been able to find the citation--ever--again and not for having tried!

Does anyone know this material, here? (I might start a thread) :)

[Galin]

I still favor the Celebrimbor version. However, returning to your question of why Olórin would have brought it to Galadriel, if she already possessed Nenya, I have an idea or two.

In the first place, it's possible Gandalf, when he arrived at the Havens in the Third Age, was coming in blind, maybe knowing little or nothing of the Rings of Power. If he'd been given the Elessar to pass to Galadriel, it might not have occurred to him to wonder why she needed it. Also, he made a point of telling her it was not intended for her sole keeping forever, but that she was to give it to a certain person in the future. I wonder too, if the powers of the Elessar and the Three, though similar in healing properties, were nonetheless subtly different, owing to the gifts and intentions of their respective makers.

Hmm, my problem with these is that Galadriel appears to desire preservation power in the first place, and then Olorin offers her the stone.

[Ivriniel]

No I don't think any of Aragorn's descendants would have a lifespan even approaching his 210 years. Aragorn firmly states he is the Last Numenorean King. The long life Numenor had was not just due to the purity of their blood, but the way they adapted the Elvish lifestyle.

I dunno. Arwen was Elros's niece and so has about 1/4 to 1/8th of his genome. And more elfy blood than Elros. I'd have thought those two factors, add in Aragorn's pure blood, then the Elessar might mean some restoration of longevity.

The Elessar, as I read it, also 'filters out' the taint of Morgoth in that influence upon the sun. I wonder what this meant for Gondorian citizens under its radiance. Galadriel used it as a lesser power to Nenya for the same reason. Add in that stuff about it being 'free of the One' and you have a pretty impressive Elf Stone...

[Galin]

I don't think it is since both stories are internal. The legend of the Princes being descended from an Elf is something we hear about in LOTR. It is a legend that Imrahil addresses. This is not a case of Tolkien changing his mind for me, but rather adding another version ( a more accurate one) I believe.

Well that much is internal, yes, that there is a legend of mixed Elvish blood is surely so.

But that alone doesn't necessarily mean that two competing [and never published by Tolkien himself] versions of the history of Dol Amroth, despite that both can be connected in some way to this legend, are intended to be two, purposeful variations within the subcreated world.

[cellurdur]

Well that much is internal, yes, that there is a legend of mixed Elvish blood is surely so.

But that alone doesn't necessarily mean that two competing [and never published by Tolkien himself] versions of the history of Dol Amroth, despite that both can be connected in some way to this legend, are intended to be two, purposeful variations within the subcreated world.
Well Christopher Tolkien has seen all the notes and he seems to think they were conflicting 'traditions'. This to me suggest that he believes his father intended for both stories to be 'traditions' that were handed down in Dol Amroth.

3,000 years is a long time and lots of lore had been lost in Gondor.

I dunno. Arwen was Elros's niece and so has about 1/4 to 1/8th of his genome. And more elfy blood than Elros. I'd have thought those two factors, add in Aragorn's pure blood, then the Elessar might mean some restoration of longevity.

The Elessar, as I read it, also 'filters out' the taint of Morgoth in that influence upon the sun. I wonder what this meant for Gondorian citizens under its radiance. Galadriel used it as a lesser power to Nenya for the same reason. Add in that stuff about it being 'free of the One' and you have a pretty impressive Elf Stone...
Yet all the other Numenoreans had no elf blood and their lives were extended too. If we are to except the story of Imrazor and Mithrellas then the additional blood of Mithrellas really in the grand scheme of things did not change much either.

Without the gift of Numenor (a land freed from Morgoth's taint and blessed by the Valar) the Numenoreans would never reach that height again no matter how pure or loyal they were.

[Inziladun]

Hmm, my problem with these is that Galadriel appears to desire preservation power in the first place, and then Olorin offers her the stone.

Indeed, which is why I think the powers of Nenya and the Elessar might have some differences. Perhaps Galadriel used the latter to augment the former.

[Galin]

Well Christopher Tolkien has seen all the notes and he seems to think they were conflicting 'traditions'. This to me suggest that he believes his father intended for both stories to be 'traditions' that were handed down in Dol Amroth.

3,000 years is a long time and lots of lore had been lost in Gondor.

It is a long time, but it's up to JRR Tolkien to decide what has been lost, or might have become confused, within any given time period, within the subcreated world.

The use of quotation marks ['traditions'] by Christopher Tolkien is interesting here: does he mean he thinks they are internal, or that they are different traditions, full stop, even if they might be intended as in-story traditions? We've no way of knowing that at the moment...

... but in any case even Christopher Tolkien cannot be sure here.

[Galin]

Indeed, which is why I think the powers of Nenya and the Elessar might have some differences. Perhaps Galadriel used the latter to augment the former.

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age? The Three were already powerful, and made for preservation.

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

[Ivriniel]

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age?

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

Was it the case that her conversation with Olorin preceded the peak in assay of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain's lore? I took UFT (I don't have it here atm, but I can check again), on this point (about the Elessar/with Olorin version), to be a conversation with Olorin sometime before she had Nenya.

However -- and here's the timing thing again -- as we know, Cirdan gave Gandalf a Ring. So, I need to check UFT again, but it seemed to me that in that first version of the Elessar, Tolkien had not had Nenya on Galadriel's finger (which again goes to what I read in Galin's earliest post, upstream. He noted that this meant a 'visit from Olorin to his mate, Alatariel (as he would have known her, not as Galadriel), *before* he was Istari-ified.....

awkward, but necessary to resolve the problem....

[Galin]

Well that's the point in question: if it's Gandalf the Istar it's about 1,000 years into the Third Age, or later... but Nerwende Artanis -- with [in theory] Nenya on her finger -- desires unfading grass, for example? She says this to Olorin before he reveals he has the Elessar.

I don't know why the Olorin idea is necssarily awkward though, as Tolkien himself even speaks to this Maia visiting Middle-earthers very early on, and provides the means. Unless you think the idea awkward even if it's from the uthor, I guess.

[Ivriniel]

Well that's the point in question: if it's Gandalf the Istar it's about 1,000 years into the Third Age, or later... but Nerwende Artanis -- with [in theory] Nenya on her finger -- desires unfading grass, for example? She says this to Olorin before he reveals he has the Elessar.

those darned elves and their lawns! :) they just can't stand seeing their gardens wilt in summer...

I don't know why the Olorin idea is necssarily awkward though, as Tolkien himself even speaks to this Maia visiting Middle-earthers very early on, and provides the means. Unless you think the idea awkward even if it's from the uthor, I guess.

I saw what you wrote about the emphasis on author and 'Olorin' and that meaning he was not yet istari-ified. It's awkward because of how hard lined the Tale of the Years is about the arrival of the Istari, giving the impression of 'okay, now go', and 'not before'. Add to that all the stuff about the preparatory discussions the Maia chosen had with the Valar pre-departure. Gandalf specifically says he feared Sauron and so, I think it was Manwe said that made Gandalf an even better choice. (this was not in UT, but in other books I have at hand, I can quote if you like).

The 'vibe', then *smiles* (vibe....how clearly argued Ivriniel hahaha) is about why on earth, a Maia would keep ties with ole Galadriel, some several (thousand) years, long after she took off to Middle Earth.

I know the Maia like Olorin walked, sometimes clad as Elves and sometimes as invisible spirits in the West. But? What--Olorin pops over the Middle Earth, becomes corporeal as a, what, elf? It just all feels wrong....

[Galin]

But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here.

'That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.'

So why not visit Nerwen and so on, as Olorin, and for his own [and Yavanna's] reasons. The collective Istari mission to combat Sauron is in the future from this perspective.

Also, I'm not sure Olorin the Maia had certainly known Galadriel in Aman, as a friend.

It's possible, and certainly possible that he knew of her obviously, but no former friendship is stated that I'm aware of, and the suggestion that Olorin walked among Elves unseen, or as one of them [blending into the background? or becoming friendly with the Elves, or some Elves?], doesn't exactly necessarily speak to making friends with every, even notable Elf.

Not that you said otherwise.

I can see the thinking here, I mean it's Galadriel, but it's one of those things which is unsaid as far as I know.

[Ivriniel]

But within this conception Olorin isn't arriving as an Istar, complete with and Istar's function and duties, here.

hang on :) am home now, lemme eat my dinner and hava nutha read of the text....back soon

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Let's not forget that the incarnate bodies of the Istari were, as much as anything, disguises. Only Cirdan knew what they were or whence they came, at least at first. Even when Elrond and Galadriel picked up on it, as I'm sure eventually they did, they still wouldn't have been, like, "Hey, Olorin! Thought it was you. Great costume, dude." Maiar in their native form could assume any shape they liked, and we have seen that Olorin preferred to be incognito when dealing with the Elves.

[Galin]

While you're reading I'll add: the timing in the essay is a bit unclear imy opinion, unless you or somone can clarify it better. Galadriel is in Greenwood, and this possibly goes hand in hand with the first edition passage that Celeborn, in the Second Age, established a realm in the South of Greenwood [later revised].

The 'conception' is thus the interpretation that we have Olorin here, not Gandalf as an Istar, and this would be well before the collective choosing of the Istari and so on. And Olorin gives the Elessar stone with mention of Yavanna. I don't recall any indication here [necessarily] of an Istari-related mission...

... but what we do have is what I and others have wondered about already: a Galadriel who desires flowers and grass that do not die, and, considering that she has one of the Three Great Rings of preservation power when the Istari appear, this does not easily fall in line with a time after the Istari arrived in Middle-earth.

In other words the conception is not explicitly noted by Tolkien, but for me it does not seem awkward, especially given my quote from JRRT about Olorin visiting folk in Middle-earth [outside of and before the Istari mission]...

... and no more awkward than Melian coming to Middle-earth in a physical form, for example. And if one objects to Tolkien's conception from WPP about the Valar and Maiar visting Middle-earth, we could even 'invent' a ship for Olorin in this period.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

OKay, it sort of works-- and while we're speculatin' we could recall that one version of the Glorfindel story has him arriving in the 2d age, and a note raises the possibility of a Numenorean ship.... there was after all sea-traffic from Eressea to Numenor. So could not Olorin-in-disguise have hitched a ride? (The Elessar essay implies, I think, that until Gandalf/Olorin invoked Yavanna, Galadriel didn't know where he came from)

[Galin]

Good points WCH.

I think Tolkien only had a problem with Goldenlocks returning after Numenor fell, as that would put a seeming lot of emphasis on his return -- that is, if the Valar thought it so important that he should return after the removal of Aman [although in Glorfindel I Tolkien mused that Glorfindel returned as a companion to Gandalf].

The Istari were important enough of course. But in any case, before the removal of Aman one could take ship, and yes Olorin would not be in the physical guise of the old sage later called Mithrandir.

[Inziladun]

But that still misses the main question in my opinion: why does Galadriel, before even knowing that the Elessar is with Olorin, desire preservation power if she can employ Nenya, as she certainly does in the Third Age? The Three were already powerful, and made for preservation.

That's the question that goes away if she cannot employ Nenya at all because it's too early, with Olorin but not 'Gandalf'.

Perhaps Galadriel was reluctant to use Nenya because of uncertainty regarding the One. The Wise knew only that Isildur had been traveling to Rivendell with it, when he, and it, were lost. Although it had been around 1000 years, maybe she wanted some means of healing that did not involve any connection to the One Ring.

The idea of Olórin coming to Middle-earth before the Third Age just doesn't sit well with me. Like I said, the coming of the Istari was such a major event in Middle-earth history that it seems like a cheat of sorts for Gandalf to just pop over the Sea to hand over something to an Elf.

[Galin]

Appendix B notes:

The Third Age

These were the fading years of the Eldar. For long they were at peace, wielding the Three Rings while Sauron slept and the One was lost; but they attempted nothing new (...) [something about Dwarves... something about Nmenoreans] (...)

... and next we learn that around 1,000 years [a notable amount of time] 'had passed' and the arrival of the Istari is described. And in step with this: 'Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work...' Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age

Come on now :p Tolkien doesn't have to spell it out explicitly with respect to Nerwen.

The Elves had, in my opinion, already wielded the Three in the Second Age, and even Christopher Tolkien rather simply notes that Galadriel would have to await the fall of Sorehead, in a comment about the possibility of her using Nenya after the Ring Ruse was discovered.

Although subjective of course, I think the possibility you raise about Galadriel is more strained than Olorin visting Middle-earth. Again everyone seems to accept Melian for instance, or some of the Valar.

[Inziladun]

Although subjective of course, I think the possibility you raise about Galadriel is more strained than Olorin visting Middle-earth. Again everyone seems to accept Melian for instance, or some of the Valar.

Well, at the end of the day this looks like a subject with some degree of ambiguity (shocking for Tolkien, I know). I'm going with the Celebrimbor option, cos' that's just the way I roll. ;)

[Ivriniel]

okay :) I've hadda look at date stuff (which is headache material - it's so fiddly and akin to grating one's skin off with a cheese grater :) )

Tale of the Years

Ost-in-Edhil founded in 750
Around 1350 to 1400, Galadriel deposed by the Gwaith-i-Mirdain and departs to Lorinand
Sauron departs the Ost-in-Edhil, 1500, after the Mirdain begin the making of the Rings of Power
Sauron invades Eriador 1695, sacks the House of the Mirdain, seizes the Nine, tortures Celebrimbor (captured defending the House) to ascertain the location of the Rings of Power. It seems Celebrimbor divulged the location of the Seven [but maybe not, and possibly Durin the ? was gifted with one some time earlier)
Tar Minastir, delayed 5 years, sends a great navy, just in nick of time, to assist Gil Galad, desperately holding Lhun, after Eriador sacked and run over.
Vinaylonde of Tar-Aldarion after named Lond Daer, mouth of Gwathlo (Greyflood)
Istari Arrive in Middle Earth around [B]1000 TA


Analysis

Olorin was not an Istari, NOT clad, irreversibly in the body of an aging 'man' (not Istari-fied) by the time of the debate we're having about UT and, the version of the Elessar where Galadriel and Olorin are munching on Lembas and Miruvor in Lorinand.

Lorinand, we think, was a realm that extended onto either side of the Anduin, and subsumed the location of the Dol Guldur as well as what came to be known as Laurelindorenan.

Annatar convinced the Mirdain to take control of the Ost-In-Edhil, around 1300 to 1400 SA, some thousand/s of years before the arrival of the Istari. It was around then, it seems, that Galadriel gathered the Nandorin and Silvan remnant who resided in those woods (Lorinand) and around the Gwathlo, and Amroth regions, where also was Edhellond, the other major Elven harbour. She, and other of her Noldor buddies Sindarised the Nandor/Silvans (who to this point had no written language and did not organise themselves into settlements/cities). Add here stuff about Dol Amroth, Elfy bloodlines, Imrahil, Ivriniel and Nimrodel. Amroth and all that.

[Ivriniel]

So....by this account (for version I of the deliberately dual text), Olorin was a pre-Istari visitor bearing a returned gift by the Grace of Yavanna. Galadriel was a jaded, cross, Elf, tossed out of the Ost-In-Edhil, by naughty Elfs, who spent too much time, hangin' out with Annatar the resident bad boi.

The Olorin-out-of-the-West is a theoretical possibility.

However, I found another reason to presuppose Version 1 is not the "one only the wise knew" (UT put it that way). UT notes that The Elessar made a region in Beleriand heal (like Vilya did) with Enerdhil's jewell, before it passed into the West. The Silmarillion then goes onto apply a Silmaril (i.e. not the Elessar) as the basis for this 'healing' before it left Beleriand.

Further, in Version II, we're told the second Elessar had less joo joo. The first Elessar could make a whole region grow Valinorish (ie. was Vilya-ish). The second Elessar, though "more subtle" and "clearer" than the first, could not imprison light from the sun when she was 'young'. Morgoth's influence from the Void.

I didn't see Aragorn's Elessar doin' very much joo joo and so, this places it more as the Celebrimbor/Feanorean jewel.

[Galin]

•Ost-in-Edhil founded in 750: Around 1350 to 1400, Galadriel deposed by the Gwaith-i-Mirdain and departs to Lorinand

Well, apologies but I must get external with respect to this idea as a given :)

This ousting of Galadriel comes from a text called Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales, which wasn't finished by JRRT [never mind not being published by him], and contains certain ideas that were revised later [Amroth as Galadriel's son, for instance] and others that in my opinion were arguably abandoned or revised...

... like [again in my opinion] Galadriel as co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion. And thus there was/would be no need for her to be ousted from power at this point.

Also, Christopher Tolkien thinks The Elessar was probably written at about the same time as Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, but what came first, this chicken or this egg? And if The Elessar came first, how do we know the circumstances that were imagined behind Galadriel residing in Greenwood when Olorin visited? Christopher Tolkien states that possibly the reference to Galadriel living in Greenwood is related to the refrence in the first edition, in the tale of years of the Second Age, Appendix B:

'... many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forest far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the North of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the South of the forest.'

And while much later in the 1960s Tolkien would revise this, for all we know this was why Galadriel, in The Elessar, was living in Greenwood, not that she was imagined as being forced there by Celebrimbor as in CG&C.

There are passages of possible interest with respect to whether or not Tolkien revised the idea of Galadriel as being an ousted ruler in Eregion, considering too, that even Christopher Tolkien raised the question of why, if Galadriel saw through Annatar, she, as a co-ruler with Celeborn in this text, allowed Annatar to remain. These are published in Tolkien's Words, Phrases And Passages, in Parma Eldalamberon:

[I]'... of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastwards into Eriador and beyond (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)' entry Yrch

'Also it existed long before Galadriel's coming there -- it was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after downfall of Eregion.' entry Lothlorien

'... simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of the...' entry Sindarin

And when Tolkien revised The Return of the King, for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, he 'merely' added that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion (with no reason to think he ruled after anyone), and a Feanorean.

I think that Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean made him ruler of Eregion from the start, and the former concept of Galadriel being ousted to Lindorinand had vanished [along with the question raised by CJRT]. And if I recall correctly, it was Nerwende who had introduced her son to Lindorinand in the earlier concept, thus giving her a measure of 'family ties' to a place where she could later flee to with the revolt of the Mirdain...

... but again, Amroth as Galadriel's son was certainly abandoned according to Christopher Tolkien, and taken together with the [arguble at least] implication of the descriptions from WPP, what JRRT published about Celebrimbor in the 1960s as well, personally I think this notion was later abandoned.

[Ivriniel]

Hi there Galin, :) how r u?

Well, apologies but I must get external with respect to this idea as a given :)

This ousting of Galadriel comes from a text called Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales, which wasn't finished by JRRT [never mind not being published by him], and contains certain ideas that were revised later [Amroth as Galadriel's son, for instance] and others that in my opinion were arguably abandoned or revised...

Yes. But.

[Some of the] materials about Galadriel were amongst the last JRRT worked on. Chris also notes in UT that his dad wrote some stuff about Galadriel a month before his death. Seems to me that meant that Tolkien had some new thoughts about Galadriel that were missed by older materials. For example, the stuff he wrote a month before his death was the materials quarantining her from responsibility of Feanor's lead on the kinslaying, her and Celeborn (Teleporno) fighting valiantly with the Teleri (though Celeborn's lineage, elsewhere places him as a descendent of Elmo, bro to Elwe and Olwe, and this lineage links Dior, by marriage, to Elmo's brood, and so to Elwing, meaning Celebrian and Celeborn were related to Aragron (Elros) and also Arwen (Elrond). So, Gala and Celeb snatch a Telerin boat, and wander off to Middle Earth, roped in to the Ban thing, by implication, but arrived ahead of her "...unfriends forever..." Feanor (I had to say, I always chuckle when I re-read that stuff about Galadriel snubbing relative Feanor, and so the two were "unfriends forever".

Lineage matters shunted sideways, Chris notes that Galadriel's stuff is amongst the latest emendations to other materials and in fact, post dates LotR. There is the implication that Amroth is Galadriel's son (as you noted), for example, which post dates LotR.

... like [again in my opinion] Galadriel as co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion. And thus there was/would be no need for her to be ousted from power at this point.

On this point about Galariel's and Celeborn's migration out of Beleriand, end of FA:

Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. [He is here said to have been one of the survivors of Gondolin, who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers; but the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Feanor, as is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings …and more fully detailed in the Silmarillion (pp. 176, 276" (p. 235, Unfinished Tales, 1980, Allen & Unwen , Hardback Ed)

That quote more goes to why version I of the Elessar, Enerdhil and all that don't square well with later emendations.

Chris notes that Galadriel and Celeborn were not mentioned in founding of Ost-In-Edhil but--the (late) essay on Galadriel and Celeborn states

Although it is not stated that Galadriel was present when Annatar arrived (1200), "He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her score with outward patience and courtesy" (p. 237) and Sauron "…worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion" (p. 237) "So great became his hold on the Mirdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion" (p. 237) between 1350 and 1400 "Galadriel thereupon left eregion and passed through Khazad-dum to Lorinand, taking with her Amroth and Celebrian" (p. 237)

This places Galadriel and Celebron in the fray and how the revolt against them was orchestrated.

Bad boi Annatar comes in and stirs the pot around 1200 then

But in the meantime the power of Galadriel and Celeborn had grown, and Galadriel, assisted in this by her friendship with the Dwarves of Moria, had come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lorinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains (p. 236)

So, the founding of Laurelindorenan and all that appears to have happened some time after 1200 and before 1695 SA (Because it was Gil Galad that gives her Mallorn seeds, gifted to him from Numenor [The seeds wouldn't grow in Lindon], this also implies a second-age-ish concept for the founding of Lorien, after Lorinand). I note that materials about Amroth and Nimrodel place Amroth as ruler of Lorien until -- much later -- (I have a headache :) ) around 3434, SA! Man--that's like really off tap Tolkien--we are talking a discrepancy of about 1000 years!!!!

Also, Christopher Tolkien thinks [I]The Elessar was probably written at about the same time as Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn,

Yes

... but what came first, this chicken or this egg? And if The Elessar came first, how do we know the circumstances that were imagined behind Galadriel residing in Greenwood when Olorin visited? Christopher Tolkien states that possibly the reference to Galadriel living in Greenwood is related to the refrence in the first edition, in the tale of years of the Second Age, Appendix B:

My point is more that Olorin-out-of-the-West, munching on Lembas and sipping Miruvor with Galadriel [a cross, Elf, booted out from the Ost-In-Edhil] in Lorinand appears to have occurred between 1200 and 1695 SA. Given the Istari rocked in 1000 TA, this implies the Olorin option as a pre-Istari visitor is theoretically possible. In that version, he comes chatting to Alatariel.

Did he bear the Elessar? (resuming focus on the two in-text, versions, deliberately divergent where "...only the wise..." (UT) know which is true.

A 'bottom line' synopsis with five points:

1. the joo joo argument. Elessar I was Nenya-ish, and greened an area in Beleriand on the coast, before passing West over sea.
2. But, Silmarillion replaces that with the effects of a Silmaril.
3. In any case, in story two, Celebrimbor (I think it's reasonably clear as he the Feanorean, not the jewel smith of Gondolin) makes a second. This jewel is 'clearer' and more 'subtle' but less powerful. Morgoth's influence on the Sun from the Void.
4. Aragorn's Elessar doesn't make Valinorish things happen in a region. It's power is limited. Thus
5. This makes Olorin's gift to Galadriel less likely.

I think that Celebrimbor's change to a Feanorean made him ruler of Eregion from the start, and the former concept of Galadriel being ousted to Lindorinand had vanished [along with the question raised by CJRT]. And if I recall correctly, it was Nerwende who had introduced her son to Lindorinand in the earlier concept, thus giving her a measure of 'family ties' to a place where she could later flee to with the revolt of the Mirdain...

... but again, Amroth as Galadriel's son was certainly abandoned according to Christopher Tolkien, and taken together with the [arguble at least] implication of the descriptions from WPP, what JRRT published about Celebrimbor in the 1960s as well, personally I think this notion was later abandoned.

Not sure I agree. Though, points 1 to 5 don't draw heavily on which way I go with this last bit.

[Ivriniel]

also......

The text bearing this title is a short and hasty outline, very roughly composed, which nonetheless is almost the sole narrative source for the events in the West of Middle-earth up to the defeat and expulsion of Sauron from Eriador in the year 1701 of the Second Age. Other than this there is little beyond the brief and infrequent entries in the Tale of Years, and the much more generalised and selective accounts in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age (published in The Silmarillion) p. 234, UT

Which goes to Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, UT.

Important, as it is latter text. Add in this:

The text is much emended, and it is not always possible to see what belongs to the time of composition of the manuscript and what is indefinitely later. This is the case with those references to Amroth that make him the son of Galaddriel and Celeborn; but whenever these references were inserted, I think it is virtually certain that this was a new construction, later than the writing...p. 234

of the LotR.

That is, Tolkien appears to have added the Amroth thing and his sister as Celebrian, after LotR was published. I guess/believe he did so coz he was going to backflush Amroth and retrofit him in a new lineage and place in the histories....(honestly, I had to read this stuff about Galadriel, like 500,000 times. Not exaggerating - not :) I remember first encountering it all in 1980 and wanting to rip every hair off my head. By the time you get into V3 of Galadriel, the head starts to spin on the head, and the mouth starts vomiting tacks and goo (remember Linda Blair anyone?).

I'm glad I ploughed through. I have fixed a big mess in my head up......34 years later :)

The Amroth stuff is v. messy. Seems that by 1969 (earth time :) ), he's dumped as bro to Celebrian....Chris refers to The Battle of Dagorlad and Amdir as Amroth's dad.....*though*....the older Galadriel and Celeborn essay *was* modified, late. So, while Amroth/Amdir/Dagorlad/3rd millennium SA was written *later*, there were mods to the older script. Chris goes on to say (UT, p. 244) that he's not sure what was going to happen to Amroth, with implications for the bloodline to Galadriel and Celeborn.....possibly.

[Galin]

Yes. But.

[Some of the] materials about Galadriel were amongst the last JRRT worked on. Chris also notes in UT that his dad wrote some stuff about Galadriel a month before his death. Seems to me that meant that Tolkien had some new thoughts about Galadriel that were missed by older materials. For example, the stuff he wrote a month before his death (..)

Okay... but this very late text doesn't get into Eregion, so I guess you are making a general point with this example?

By the way, I said earlier in the thread: 'And if I recall correctly, it was Nerwende who had introduced her son to Lindorinand in the earlier concept, thus giving her a measure of 'family ties' to a place where she could later flee to with the revolt of the Mirdain...'

... but there I did not recall correctly, as Galadriel committed Lorien to Amroth later in this text.


Lineage matters shunted sideways, Chris notes that Galadriel's stuff is amongst the latest emendations to other materials and in fact, post dates LotR. There is the implication that Amroth is Galadriel's son (as you noted), for example, which post dates LotR.

It does post date The Lord of the Rings, but the text about Amroth and Nimrodel post-dates Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, at least as originally written. Hammond and Scull date CG&C to possibly the late 1950s.


On this point about Galariel's and Celeborn's migration out of Beleriand, end of FA:

Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. [He is here said to have been one of the survivors of Gondolin, who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers; but the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Feanor, as is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings …and more fully detailed in the Silmarillion (pp. 176, 276" (p. 235, Unfinished Tales, 1980, Allen & Unwen , Hardback Ed)

That quote more goes to why version I of the Elessar, Enerdhil and all that don't square well with later emendations.'

Okay, but the citation you are responding to from my post was about the ousting of Galadriel as co-ruler and co-founder of Eregion. This is rather about the matter of Celebrimbor being later revised to a Feanorean, which is actually part of my argument.

Or are you merely pointing to the fact that this text was revised at some later point?

Chris notes that Galadriel and Celeborn were not mentioned in founding of Ost-In-Edhil...

For clarity, in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn these characters are noted as founding and ruling Eregion. Christopher Tolkien explained that Galadriel and Celeborn were not mentioned in this context in Of The Rings of Power and in Appendix B, both earlier works that CG&C.


... but-- the (late) essay on Galadriel and Celeborn states (...) This places Galadriel and Celebron in the fray and how the revolt against them was orchestrated.


Well again that's from CG&C. It's later than The Lord of the Rings, but it is not a late essay. So yes, this is the text in which the idea appears.

So far we have arrived at the start :D

I am stating I think this 'ousting' is not necessarily a given, for various reasons, only one of which concerns the rejection of Amroth as Galadriel's son.


The Amroth stuff is v. messy. Seems that by 1969 (earth time ), he's dumped as bro to Celebrian....Chris refers to The Battle of Dagorlad and Amdir as Amroth's dad.....*though*....the older Galadriel and Celeborn essay *was* modified, late.

Still, we don't know when CG&C was modified with respect to Celebrimbor or Amroth. You assign 'late' to this modification, but the Amroth tale is very late: 1969 or later, and for example, Tolkien had already published, a few years before this for the second edition of The Lord of the Rings, that Celebrimbor was a Feanorean. Thus the idea of Celebrimbor as a Feanorean, at least, existed before the very late Amroth texts.

Not all that compelling I admit, but CJRT seems to state rather certainly [see below] that Amroth as Galadriel's son was 'later' rejected, which I at least take to represent his opinion then, or perhaps what he feels is most likely given the scenario.


So, while Amroth/Amdir/Dagorlad/3rd millennium SA was written *later*, there were mods to the older script. Chris goes on to say (UT, p. 244) that he's not sure what was going to happen to Amroth, with implications for the bloodline to Galadriel and Celeborn.....possibly.

I don't recall the statement you are referring to here, but in the quote I recall CJRT seems pretty definitive about Amroth as Galadriel's son being a rejected idea: '... but whether he was or not, this view of his parentage was later rejected.'

Anyway, Amroth as Galadriel's son is only one part of my argument, and that argument only goes so far as to say that the idea of Galadriel as co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion isn't necessarily a given...

... so if we agree on that much (emphasis on necessarily), and if we agree that Olorin could have visited in the Second Age...

:D

[Ivriniel]

*high five*

That's all well enough for me. I respect your technical precision, well delivered in even tempered prose, with concessions at times, and a nice manner.

You're welcome to your final position. I could respond to your requests, but I'm not sure they would do anything but labour points well made from both perspectives.

One comment only--given TelePORNO (what an unfortunate name :) - I know it should probably be read Telep-orno [much nicer] but it's phonetically unfortunate - anyhooz, back to topic...I wonder, what it would have meant for the final position on Amroth, had Tolkien returned to edit the Amroth materials, and so on, given that Teleporno and Alatariel (a bit creepy - they're second cousins on Tol Eressea, grandchildren, both of Olwe, through different lines) were both Eldar who'd seen the light of the Trees?

We'll never know.

I also wonder, what on Earth Galadriel and Celeborn did for 1000 years, for those story variations placing Amroth son of Amdir, ruler until 3434 SA in Lorien/South Greenwood/Lorinand and *screams* Lindorinand in the Appendices! *scratches head* - I mean, dwelling in Imladris? Really? And I guess Galadriel just hung onto those Mallorn seeds Gil Galad gave her, gifted to him from Numenor, probably much earlier, I thought. Used Nenya? *screams again* There's contrary citations about that darned Ring stuff, and hints they didn't 'hide' them at all! I mean, from 1696 through to the end of SA, that's a freakin' lotta years to just hang on to them!

Also, there's one last citation in the Appendices of CG&C where it was not Amdir at all at Dagorlad, but some other dude, *screams* starting with 'M'...I can't be bothered dredging the citation. But, Chris reckoned it was just a simple swaperoo needed to chuck in Amdir and we're all sweet. Not sure about that, now, though I need to check the relative citations' ages. It's possible the 'M' dude was supposed to depose Amdir, so that Amroth could be Celebrian's bro.

Anyhooz, I really love the tale of Amroth, the love sick Sindar/Eldar, who hangs out with a Silvan/Nandor, and a rather cross one, quite sick of the Eldar and all their nonsense. Who jumps ship in the hugest-est-ever-est storm out of the north. His *golden* hair in the waves, long seen by far-sighted Elves on the boat....that we think made it to Valinor.

Did Nandor have golden hair? I'd have thought *silver* like the Teleri. This last item makes me....wonder.....just if that little, ole Amroth had his ma's golden tresses, a-la Finarfin, a-la Indis......

Just a thought

take care matey, thanx for all the materials - look forwards to ur company.

[Galin]

Actually Ivriniel [by edit] I fixed an argument of mine that was flawed, as, given CJRT's rather certain comment [to my mind] about Amroth as Nerwen's son being rejected, I had not remembered that the Amroth idea was also included in those sections that might have been revised 'later' .

Which you highlighted and I still didn't pay enough attention to, at first!

Still, I think it less likely that in the same general 'phase' [1968 or later] Tolkien decided that Amroth was the son of Amdir [Malgalad is the other name confusion you were thinking of], but then added him as the son of Galadriel to CG&C. If Hammond and Scull are correct, and CG&C was written in the later 1950s, that gives plenty of years for the Amroth and Celebrimbor revisions -- but anyway what seems compelling to me is that Tolkien 'never' seems to have worked much on this text, and never brought it beyond a rough state.


Of course, if I toss out notable chunks of CG&C, thinking them revised, as you say, what then was the history here? What did Galadriel do in Eregion, and after its fall? I have given my speculations about that somewhere at the Barrow Downs, along with the matter of the Mallorns and Lorien. At the moment I have no idea where they are however, and not that I assume you want to read them anyway.

Another thing I forgot to mention is what was published in RGEO [published in 1967 I [i]think]: again it's far from conclusive in any case, but there Tolkien simply mentions that Galadriel and Celeborn passed over the Blue Mountains and went to Eregion...

... not Evendim, where Amroth was born in CG&C [but not Evendim due to brevity?], and not 'founded' Eregion [but again, is this missing due to brevity?]. But the latter 'detail' of actually founding and ruling the realm seems rather a notable one to leave out, especially with the [to my mind] easy implication of the revised Appendix B that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion.


And now I am being unfair, since I implied we should just agree and move on and then added more argument myself.

This then, is for me, not you Ivriniel: :p

And you may certainly respond if you wish of course, no matter what I imply and when.


If I can recall some of my speculated history in brief, I think it was a bit vague, and went something like this: Galadriel and Celeborn travel to Eregion -- Celebrimbor is Lord there, and he allows Annatar to play with the Mirdain -- I assume Galadriel objects -- Gil-galad has become a Finarfinian too [another complicated matter], and knew better than to allow Annatar into Lindon, so in this scenario Galadriel does not 'fail' as a ruler of Eregion by comparison, by at least allowing Annatar in her realm.

Then, after the Ring Ruse is discovered, Galadriel either departs to Lindon [with Nenya] before War breaks out [total speculation aside from the fact that she appears to be in Lindon later, acording to one note], or escapes with Celeborn to Lorien after Eregion is devasted [these are both based on notes in UT]. And well, I can't remeber at the moment what I have them doing until the Last Alliance, but as I say I posted it here somewhere...


By the way I'll have no Tel[e]porno of Aman! I know that's a very late idea but for myself I reject it as it contradicts description actually published by Tolkien himself. And thus he 'needs' no Telerin name too!


Here's something else about Amroth: wow now I'm really being annoying :rolleyes:

Some think Treebeard's statement to Galadriel and Celeborn possibly includes Amroth in the plural. I'm no linguist and could easily be wrong here, but about the use of the plural in Treebeard's statement: [I]'fair ones, begetters of fair ones' I note the Quenya plural marker in vanimálion 'of fair ones'

While I'm not sure all is known about this marker, we do know that Quenya has a dual marker, which might be employed if Treebeard was speaking of two children [theoretically Amroth and Celebrian], but in any case I think he is speaking much more generally here. There are no more Entings for Ents, and having no more children might easily be on Treebeard's mind; and the fair Elves have had 'many' fair children, by comparison anyway.

Also of possible note here, Tolkien analyzed falmalinnar in The Lord of the Rings as falma-li-nnar, in the interlinear translation in RGEO, and appears to have glossed the middle element as 'many'.

And if that's the case it seem a bit odd to me to refer to two children as 'many'. Well again, if.

I'll shaddap now. Maybe. Apologies :D

[Galin]

Did Nandor have golden hair? I'd have thought *silver* like the Teleri. This last item makes me....wonder.....just if that little, ole Amroth had his ma's golden tresses, a-la Finarfin, a-la Indis......

I'm not sure silver hair was a Telerin trait necessarily. Tolkien noted, at least about the Sindar, who were a Telerin branch remaining in Beleriand....

'Elwe himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this does not seem to have been a common feature of the Sindar, though it was found among them occasionally, especially in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwe (as in the case of Cirdan). In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.'

JRRT, War of the Jewels, Quendi and Eldar

In any case Amroth's golden hair is noted in the same text in which he is the son of Amdir, not Celeborn and Galadriel. So we have another golden-haired Sinda according to Amroth and Nimrodel, despite the general picture drawn above...

... and in Appendix F.