The 3 Rings

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Maybe this is a stupid question: but does anybody know if when (in the TT movie) Galadriel was talking about the Ring Quest and how it would claim Frodo's life and you would keep seeing Elrond, and it certainly looked like he heard her, well, was she talking through Nenya into Vilya, if so, could this happen in "real" (Middle Earth) life and how, and if no then what in the world was going on?
(One long sentence...)
Please answer if you know.. I need this for acuracy in a fan fic I am writing and just cause I'm interested.
Thanx! smilies/evil.gif hehe

[Legolas]

No, actually, that was a 'magical' power of the elves known as osanwe, the communication of thought from one mind to another; psychic powers, if you will. Examples were shown in the recently made movies, like when Galadriel 'talks' to Elrond, and when she talks to Frodo when he enters Lorien.

Not just anyone could do this though.

[ January 28, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Iargwath]

Galadriel's ability to read through others minds is only one of her abilities. She also has foresight, hence the line 'the quest will claim his life'.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Thank you for the replies, but there's still one thing that doesn't make sense: when Galadriel says that the quest will claim Frodo's life, but since it doesn't, is her foretelling inacurate? Or is it just that he changes his own 'fate'?

[Legolas]

It did take his life.

After the destruction of the Ring, he suffered mental frustration from being away from the Ring - it left its mark on him. Just like Bilbo, he would always have a longing for it. Unlike Bilbo, though, Frodo hadn't really lived his life yet. He had just come of age when he got the Ring. He only got to enjoy the first few years of his adulthood before he was swept off to the lands and affairs of elves, men, and orcs.

[doug*platypus]

Good perspective, Legolas. Frodo himself seems to think that the quest has claimed his life, or at least his ability to enjoy life in Middle-Earth.

While it would be nice to credit PJ/PB/FW with this well thought-out viewpoint, that cannot be judged until the final movie. And for all we know, they might just kill Frodo (although that seems unlikely as there will definitely be a departure from the Grey Havens at the end). I think that at this stage I would assume that she refers to the literal sense (presuming that movieElrond actually cares, which he probably doesn't), and that therefore she is ultimately proved wrong. Which is fair enough anyway, since to endow her with such an incredible amount of foresight involves a great deal of artistic license on the part of the filmmakers.

Shouldn't this be in the Movies forum? (rhetorical, please do not answer!)

[Razbad]

The elves are generally negative thinkers so galadiel has thought the worst of Frodo, but it will Make his life unbareable

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Hmmm....where does it state that Elves were negative thinkers?

[Lyra Greenleaf]

I just thought that it was cos it claimed his 'normal' life, and his enjoyment of life. They couldnt kill him, they just couldnt. Could they? I know lots and lots (and lots) of people would be very unhappy. What I LOVE (sarcasm) is the fact that Galadriel goes: "This is the risk we all took."
It must have been very hard for her to risk Frodo's life...

[Iargwath]

"This is the risk we all took."
It must have been very hard for her to risk Frodo's life...
Isnt Galadriel a ringbearer as well. She did say 'To bear a ring of power is to be alone'. Maybe she was referring to all the ring bearers in general. If you get what i mean.

[Falagar]

What I LOVE (sarcasm) is the fact that Galadriel goes: "This is the risk we all took."
It must have been very hard for her to risk Frodo's life...

When they sent Frodo to destroy the Ring, it wasn't only his life they risked. If Frodo failed they would probably all die...

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

From what someone asked befor: where does it say that Elves are negative thinkers? Well... somewhere at the Council of Elrond Gloin asks Elrond whethter the 3 Rings are idle and he answers: "...in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle..." Then Gloin asks what would happen to these 3 Rings if the Ruling Ring was destroyed. Elrond says: "We know not for certain. Some hoep that the Three rings... would then become free... But maybe when the One has gon, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten."
Kinda pessimistic, dontcha think?

[Tar-Palantir]

Kinda pessimistic, dontcha think?

I would call it pragmatic rather than pessimistic. I was immediately reminded by your comment of something Gildor said when speaking to Frodo in book one. let me look it up...here it is...

Frodo:
'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.'

Compare Frodo's saying to what you had of Elrond above. Fits, does it not?

Gildor's response:
'Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for it is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill.'

That is not pessimism, but words of a wise elf who has seen many days.

On another note, the quest certainly took something from Frodo, but not his life. So either her vision is faulty, or PJ kills him. Actually if I recall correctly wasn't Galadriels quote when speaking with Elrond-
"The Quest will claim his life.
YOU have seen it." So wasn't it Elrond's vision, perhaps they both had the same vision? Does anyone rember it this way besides me?

[ February 04, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[the guy who be short]

i will watch it on saturday and hopefully get back to you on sunday. please dont close this topic or anything like that til then

[Ultimatejoe]

Claim his life doesn't mean killed necessarily. His life will be consumed, possessed, absorbed by his burden, that doesn't mean killed.

[Elois Telcontar]

I'm a new member and a new fan so I could be totally wrong, but I think that one of the themes of the book is that "no one can see all the possible outcomes or that anyone can profoundly change the future" ,so even though Galadriel can see that the quest was to take his life (and I think she was speaking literally), she could not for see that, Bilbo's and Frodo's pity in letting Gollum live would save Frodo's life literally.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Yah, I don't think I got any of that stuff until people started answering. Thanks!
One last thing- no two- that don't make sense: at Galadriel's mirror, when Frodo sees her Ring, he asks something to the effect of: "If I am allowed to put on the Ring, if I do put it on, will the minds of those who where the other Rings be clear to me?" To which Galadriel answers I don't remember how. Still, does that just mean hat he will understand what is going on in their minds? Or actualy communicate with them? Or somehing else? Also- who ever said that Frodo was alwed to use the Ring? Unfortunately, as I was typing this, my second question slipped my mind. But I thought of a nother one. Here it is: if if Frodo put on the Ring the minds of those who wore the Three would be clear to him, would he have been able to know what was going on with Gandalf?

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Also- this is a little bit movie oriented, though the general topic of the thread isn't- in Lorien, at one point at the mirror, Galadriel speaks into Frodo's head, and then you hear Frodo's voice, answering, but you don't see his lips move. Was he just thinking this? If not, does he also have the gift of osanwe? But somebody said that osanwe is the gift of the Elves, and not even all of them have it. If he was just thinking, how did Galadriel know what the was thinking, and answer him?

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Some help? Anybody?

[HCIsland]

I think it is obvious that, in the film, Frodo can communicate with Galadriel through thought. Likely this is Galadriel's ability, not Frodo's but don't try and fit the film and the book together this closely. It's like trying to bang a square peg into a round hole.

H.C.

[mark12_30]

The thread on Osanwe is here:

Osanwe: (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000492)

Osanwe is not just a gift of the elves but is possible for all the races. It is easiest for the Valar, next easiest for the elves, perhaps.

Aragorn could do it.

Concerning Galadriel's statement about Frodo: that bothered me too; but listening closely, doesn't she say that Frodo BELIEVES the quest will claim his life?

That is true; he does; he is ready to die on Mount Doom. He tells Sam there'll be no need for food after that; he tells him he thinks the destruction of the Ring will claim both of them. And if not for Gandalf arriving with the eagles, he would have been right about that, too.

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

I agree that the quest "claiming his life" refers to the quest encompassing his life. It becomes everything to Frodo, and thus he has no other life. Without the quest, he has no life. Being unable to live, he leaves Middle Earth. I wonder if this is much like a postwar syndrome. Men fight and die for years, win the War (I speak mainly of WWI, of which I find lots of imagery in LOTR) and then what is the world to them now? Some soldiers cannot live in the peacetime world. They sacrifice themselves so that the world may have peace, but they cannot bear it themselves. I remember Frodo somewhere saying or thinking that one must give up the right to live in peace so that the world may do so, or something like that. I can't recall where it occurs or what the wording is...

Cheers,
Lyta

P.S. If PJ kills Frodo, "somebody's gonna catch it hot!" as Samwise says. smilies/mad.gif

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Thanks- I get a lot more now. But still nobody answered these questions: Yah, I don't think I got any of that stuff until people started answering. Thanks!
One last thing- no two- that don't make sense: at Galadriel's mirror, when Frodo sees her Ring, he asks something to the effect of: "If I am allowed to put on the Ring, if I do put it on, will the minds of those who where the other Rings be clear to me?" To which Galadriel answers I don't remember how. Still, does that just mean hat he will understand what is going on in their minds? Or actualy communicate with them? Or somehing else? Also- who ever said that Frodo was alwed to use the Ring? Unfortunately, as I was typing this, my second question slipped my mind. But I thought of a nother one. Here it is: if if Frodo put on the Ring the minds of those who wore the Three would be clear to him, would he have been able to know what was going on with Gandalf?Please? smilies/confused.gif

[Tar-Palantir]

You have to look it up in the book GaladrieloftheOlden. I do not think your quote is complete, so I cannot comment.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Here it is: "'I would ask one thing before we go,' said Frodo, 'a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that bear them?' 'You have not tried,' she said. 'Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ringbearer and as one that had borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?' she asked, turning agin to Sam.
And so on. I'm not sure whethter the whole passage is important to the question, but I've put it up just in case.

[Alatáriël Lossëhelin]

Actually if I recall correctly wasn't Galadriels quote when speaking with Elrond-
"The Quest will claim his life.
YOU have seen it." So wasn't it Elrond's vision, perhaps they both had the same vision? Does anyone rember it this way besides me?

The actual quote reads: "The strength of the ringbearer is failing. In his heart, Frodo begins to understand. The quest will claim his life. You know this. You have foreseen it. It is the risk we all took."

Yes, I think both Galadriel & Elrond have had a foreshadowing that unless something unlooked for occurs, Frodo will die either on the paths to Mt. Doom, or in the final moment. Indeed, if it were not for Gollum, I think Sauron would still have been able to take the ring as Frodo would not have had the strength of will to prevent it.

[Tar-Palantir]

What Galadriel means is that he is not strong enough to wield the power of the ring:
Do not try! It would destroy you
As far as permission goes, he is the Ring bearer and needs no permission. But somewhere along the line it might have been said that he only use it in dire straights, but I cannot say where those words are spoken. Wish I knew. smilies/frown.gif

[Lyta_Underhill]

Interesting questions indeed! I wonder if, as is intimated (I cannot remember if it is explicated in the text) this communication between one of the Three and the One occurs when Frodo hears Gandalf's voice on Amon Hen when he is wearing the Ring. Is this perhaps a communication between the One Ring and Narya(?) the Ring of Fire, that Gandalf bears? I believe Frodo is trying to use the Ring for seeing here, and I wonder if this attempt brings him into a sort of contact with Gandalf, even if it is not completely known to Frodo at the time? My thoughts are not clear on this, so please correct me if I speak wrongly. It is just a thought that I couldn't keep from blurting out when I read this thread! Thanks for your attention and indulgence!

Cheers,
Lyta

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I'm sorry, but I can't remember that happening, Lyta_Underhill. Was it the dream at Bombadil's house that you mean, or something else?

[Novlamothien]

It was on Amon Hen, when Frodo was fleeing from Boromir. The quote reads thusly Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!
Then, in TTT, when Aragorn &co meet Gandalf aganin he alludes to the fact that he was the speaker of the words. I think that when the Ring was on it gave him the ability of osanwe, but did not know it, and, taking Galadriel's advice, did not try too hard to get it. But that's just my two cents.

Namarie
Erin

[thesandman762]

believe that the ruling ring can connect its bearer to the the other rings, making it the RULING ring. So, it would make sense that the ringbearers could communicate, even if it was not words. (Such as frodos vision on top of the tower of isengard.) If that is related to Galdriel and the others, I cannot tell.