Translations

[Elenglin]

So, in here, this forum, are probably lots of people who've read Lotr and other Tolkien-books in some other langiage than English.
Now I'm curious about the translations: What is 'Baggins' on spanish? or 'Strider' in swedish?
After all, Tolkien insisted that all the english terms must be translated.

Here are some terms, names and places in Finnish.

Lord of the Rings = Taru Sormusten Herrasta
Baggins = Reppuli (Reppu=a backbag)
Strider = Konkari
Gollum = Klonkku
Hobbiton = Hobittila
Shire = Kontu
Bag End = Repunpää (= "Bag's head)
Mirkwood = Synkmetsä
Mount Doom = Tuomionvuori (Tuomio = Doom, Vuori=Mountain)
Misty Mountains = Sumuvuoret (Sumu = fog)
Bree = Brii
Weathertop = Viimapää (Viima=Wind)
Isengard = Rautapiha (Rauta=iron, Piha=yard garden)
Hobbit = Hobitti
Ringwraiths = Sormusaaveet (Sormus=Ring, Aaveet=Ghosts, wraiths)
Orc = Örkki
Troll = Peikko
Man = ihminen
Elf = haltia
Dwarf = kääpiö
Goblin = Hiisi

Three Rings For the elven kings under the sky = kolme sormusta haltiakuninkaille alla auringon
seven for the dwarf-lords in their halls of stone = seustemän kääpiöruhtinaille kivisaleissaan
nine for the mortal men who doomed to die = yhdeksän ihmisille jotka vie tuoni armoton
one for the Dark Lord on his dark throne = yksi Mustalle Ruhtinaalle valtaistuimellaan
in the Land of Mordor where the shadows lie = Maassa Mordorin joka varjojen peittämä on
one ring to find them all = yksi sormus löytää heidät
one ring to rule them = se yksi heitä hallitsee
one ring to take them all and in the darkness bind them = se yksi heidät yöhön syöksee ja pimeyteen kahlitsee

hey, I hope you're havin' fun with these smilies/wink.gif = Toivottavasti teillä on hauskaa näiden kera! smilies/wink.gif

[Elenglin]

SORRY SORRY SORRY.

it's
Seven for the dwarf-lords in their halls of sone = Seitsemän kääpiöruhtinaille kivisaleissaan.

my mistake :P

[Maeglin]

This sort of stuff is kinda funny I think. I think Finnish sounds funny smilies/smile.gif. Is it true that u can't say "b". So when u try to say it u say "p" instead?
Now this is swedish translation of the same words.

Hobbit = Hobitt
Ringwraiths = Ringvåldnader (våldnad= wraith)
Orc = Orch
Troll = Troll
Humman = Människa
Elf = Alv
Dwarf = Dvärg
Goblin = Vätte or Goblin
Lord of the Rings = Sagan om ringen (Litterairly: Tale of the ring *dont ask me why!!!*)
Baggins = Bagger (here it is Elenglin)
Strider = Vidstige (vid= wide. stig= path or step)
Gollum = Gollum
Hobbiton = Hobsala
Shire = Fylke (this is wierd!!!)
Bag End = What's Bag end????
Mirkwood = Mörkmården
Mount Doom = Domedagsklyftan
Misty Mountains = Dimmiga bergen (dimma= fog. so; "Foggy Mountains")
Bree = Bri
Weathertop = Väderklippan
Isengard = Isengård

Now, the swedish verision of the "poem" is so hardly edited (just so it would rime) so I cant translatet it as Elenglin.

SWEDISH...

Tre ringar för älvkungarnas makt högt i det blå,
Sju för dvärgarnas furstar i salar av sten,
Nio för de dödliga som köttets väg skall gå,
En för mörkrets herre i ondskans dunkla sken i Mordorslandets hisnande gruva.

En ring att sämja dem
En ring att främja dem
En ring att djupt i mörkrets vida riken tämja dem -
I mordors land, där skuggorna ruva.

LITTERAIRLY TO ENGLISH...

Three rings for the elvenlords glory high in the sky,
seven for the dwarves lords in the halls of stone,
Nine for the mortal who the path of flesh shall go,
One for the lord of darkness in the obscure shine of evil in Mordors terrifying mine.

One ring to rule them
One ring to find them
One ring to in the wide lands of darkness bind them -
In the land of mordor, where the shadows in evil rest upon...

Or something like that... smilies/rolleyes.gif

hey, I hope you're havin' fun with these smilies/wink.gif= Hej, jag hoppas ni har kul med dessa smilies/wink.gif

And finally...
I am a blue duck= Jag är en blå anka

I'd like to see it in Norwegian!

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Maeglin ]

[Eärendil]

Bag end is Baggershus in Swedish.

[Eärendil]

Oh yeah... Hobbit is also translated to hob in Swedish, not only hobbit.

[Gabo Darvas]

Hi! Are you courious about Hungarian translations? smilies/biggrin.gif Try to spell it! smilies/tongue.gif I must tell you, I've tried to spell Swedish words - without any success. smilies/wink.gif

Lord of the Rings = a Gyűrűk Ura
Baggins = Zsákos (zsák = bag)
Gollum = Gollam
hobbit = babó
Shire = Megye
Bag End = Zsákvég
Mount Doom = Végzet Hegye
Isengard = Völgyzugoly
Weathertop = Széltető (szél = wind)
Ringwraiths = Gyűrűlidércek (gyűrű = ring; lidérc = wraith)
Elf = tünde
Dwarf = törp

The poem in Hungarian:

Három gyűrű ragyogjon a tünde-királyok kezén,
Hét a nemes törpök jussa, kiknek háza cifra kő,
Kilencet halandó ember ujján csillantson a fény,
Egyet hordjon a Sötét Úr, szolganyájat terelő,
Mordor éjfekete földjén, sűrű árnyak mezején.

Egy Gyűrű mind fölött,
Egy Gyűrű kegyetlen,
Egy a sötétbe zár,
Bilincs az egyetlen.

(Translated by Hungarian writer Árpád Göncz)

Hey, I hope you're havin' fun with these = Hej, remélem elszórakoztat ez a móka!

És végül (and finally):

Kék kacsa vagyok. (I'm a blue duck.) smilies/biggrin.gif

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Gabo Darvas ]

[Maeglin]

You know I had a hard time spelling the hungarian words to smilies/wink.gif. But please tell me what you think of my swedish to english translation of the poem. I'm quite proud of it smilies/biggrin.gif.

Here it is again...

*Three rings for the elvenlords glory high in the sky,
seven for the dwarves lords in the halls of stone,
Nine for the mortal who the path of flesh shall go,
One for the lord of darkness in the obscure shine of evil in Mordors terrifying mine.

One ring to rule them
One ring to find them
One ring to in the wide lands of darkness bind them -
In the land of mordor, where the shadows in evil rest upon...*

But someone, please! In norwegian! Isn't Carannillion hangin around in the downs anymore?

[Gabo Darvas]

Not bad, my friend, not bad. But the elven kings moved to the sky! smilies/biggrin.gif

Finnish language is told to be similar to Hungarian... I've learnt they were relatives. But it doesn't seem to be so similar! smilies/wink.gif

I'm also curious about Norwegian words.

[Maeglin]

Yeah! iv heard theyre releated too but they dont seem similliar to me either!
I dont have any problems spelling the finnish, thoe. I don't understand a word but i now how it spells. 'Those annoying tv-programs for swedfinlanders!' smilies/wink.gif.

There is a finnish child-show in sweden for swedfinnish kids wich name is "Moi Mokolat" or something like that. I know that it means "Hello little fellas'" so that's the only word in finnish i understand.

I could help you with this for example since you couldnt spell swedish.

Midgård = Miidgard with a deep "A"
Sagan om ringen = Sagen oom ringen (notice, not 'seygen' more lik 'saagan'.

Oki, that wasn't easy too understand. smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Elenglin]

To Maeglin:

*Laughs her *** off* Where did you hear that from? That's not true, we sure can say 'B', although there is very little words in finnish that have that letter. I must tell that to my friends, that was the funniest thing I've ever heard about Finland smilies/biggrin.gif

[Elenglin]

I couldn't find any similarities fromn Hungarian and Finnish. only thing that matches, are letters Ä and Ö, but they're also in Swedish and other scandinavian languages. The onlu language that really sounds like Finnish is Estonia. We even have some same words, they just mean different thing..

Minä olen sininen ankka = I am a blue duck.

And by the way, the thin'g is probably called "Moi Mukulat", Mukula is a child or a brat of stuff. It can also be a plant smilies/biggrin.gif

BTW, i head that Tolkien read 'Kalevala' (The Finnish national saga), and it inspired him to make the elven languages. my friend told me, that JRRT has some story, wich is a straight copy from one story in Kalevala. only the names were changed! Rude guy, he was! smilies/eek.gif

[Gabo Darvas]

Don't worry, Maeglin, your translation is quite good! smilies/smile.gif

Thanks for pronunciation! Hungarian version is very difficult I think you should hear it to learn. smilies/wink.gif Pronunciation is many times unlike writing.

Elenglin, nowadays Finnish and Hungarian aren't very similar though both of them originates from phylum "finnugor". Of course the languages have changed a lot through the thousands of years. smilies/smile.gif

I've read Kalevala when I was younger (required reading in my country) but I've just started to read Tolkien's other books so I can't compare them.

And, by the truth, I can't really remember the adventures of Vejnemöjnen although I enjoyed them well. I'll read this story again. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Gabo Darvas]

Just a question from Gabo the Curious: how do you speak 'fish' in Finnish?

[Elenglin]

Did you guys know, that Tolkien's elvish languages sound much like Finnish, when they are spoken. Cool smilies/tongue.gif

Gabo The Curious: it is 'Kala'. Why did you want to know that one?

[Maeglin]

To Elenglin...

But why does swedfinnish people say *pank* instead of *bank* (bank = bank)? Well, nevermind smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/rolleyes.gif.

Hmmm... You know i think that when Tolkien speaked elvish it sounded more like lapish. But hey, it really doesn't matter. The finnish accent isn't really like elvish at all, thoe!

Ops! I know another finnish word too!
"Äisaa Päitää" or something like that. It stands on the radiators and means "must not be covered". smilies/smile.gif

I just wonder is this "Å" letter as I just wrote an A with a ring above it? I don't know if u guys can see it on ur computer because I don't think any other country in the world has that letter.

[Kalimac]

Hmm, the Russian translation (the one from 1991, I haven't read the earlier one) is disappointingly faithful in some ways smilies/smile.gif: Trolls are Trolli, Orcs are Orki, Elves are Elfi, Denethor is Denetor and Eowyn is Iovin - you get the idea. There are some differences, though:

Lord of the Rings - Vlastelin Kolets

Bag-End - Zasumok

Sackville-Baggins - Derknul-Sumkins

Frodo Baggins - Frodo Sumkins (Sumka means bag, so there you are)

Samwise Gamgee - Semius Gemdzhi (OK, not that different).

Brandybuck - Brendiskok

Bree - Bril'

Butterbur - Masliutik (Maslo means oil or butter)

Strider - Kolobrod

Gollum - Gorlum

Quickbeam - Skorodum ("Quick-thought")

Balrog - Barlog (yes, I thought it was a typo too, but it was spelled that way consisently)

Dreveborod - Treebeard (though for some reason in this translation he tells the hobbits to call him Fangorn; I haven't been able to figure that one out).

Hope that's diverting smilies/smile.gif.

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Birdland]

The Ring heads South (of the border.)

Most of the names and places in the Spanish editon are exactly the same as in English. I've given some of the few different names.

Don't get offended that the translation uses "Elf" with an "F". Often "V" is pronounced as a "B" in Spanish, which would give you an "Elb".

(Thanks to AnilloUnico.net for the information.)

El Bosque Negro = Old Forest (Black Forest)
Bilbo Bolsón = Bolso (Bag)
Bolsón Cerrado = Bag End (Bag Closed)
Samsagaz Gamyi = Samwise Gamgee
Shelob = Ella-Laraña (Ella is "she",(L)"araña" is spider)
Orcos = What else? Orcs!
Peregrin Tuk = Pergrin Took
Meriadoc Brandigamo = Merry Brandybuck
Tercera Edad = Third Age
Elfo = Elf
las Tierras Imperecederas = Undying Lands (Land Imperishable)
Enano = dwarf

Tres Anillos para los Reyes Elfos bajo el cielo.
("Three Rings for the Kings of Elves under the sky")

Siete para los Señores Enanos en sus casas de piedra.
("Seven for the Lords of Dwarves in their houses of stone.")

Nueve para los Hombres Mortales destinados a morir.
(Nine for the Men Mortal, destined to die.")

Uno para el Señor Oscuro, sobre el trono oscuro
("One for the Lord of Darkness, upon the Throne of Darkness")

en la Tierra de Mordor donde se extienden las Sombras.
("In the Land of Mordor where are extended(?) the Shadows.")

Un Anillo para gobernarlos a todos.
("One Ring for to govern all")

Un Anillo para encontrarlos,
("One Ring for to find them")

Un Anillo para atraerlos a todos y atarlos en las Tinieblas
("One Ring for to attract them all and to bind them in the (no translation)")

en la Tierra de Mordor donde se extienden las Sombras.
("In the Land of Mordor where are extended(?) the Shadows.")

Does anyone know the translation for "Tinieblas"? I couldn't find one.

[Melian]

I think "Tinieblas" would be "darkness" too... It just sounds more creepy and fancy.
Sometimes when translating something we tend to be a little too literal. For example:
Un Anillo para gobernarlos a todos.
("One Ring for to govern all")
I think "one ring to rule them all" would be better. "Govern" sounds like the Ring is the President or something.
Anyway it was a good translation!!!

[Birdland]

Thanks Melian! Much as I love the language, my Spanish is little more than "fractured", and I remained tied to my dictionary and verb lists.

And of course, being exposed to Los Angeles "Spanglish" didn't help. smilies/biggrin.gif

Now if you were to wander into some of the small towns in Northern New Mexico, they speak the "old way". A Spanish Hobbit would feel right at home there.

[Haldir]

I've Read LOTR, The Hobbit, The Simarilion and more in Hebrew,
and this is the translation to Hebrew:

Lord Of The Rings - Sar Hataba'ot
Baggins - Baggins
Gollum - Gollum
Hobbiton - Hobbiton
Shire - Peleh
Bag End - Bag End
Mirkwood - Ya'ar Ofel
Misty Mountains - Harei Ha'arafel
Bree - Bree
Weathertop - Givat Haruhot
Isengard - Isengard
Hobbit - Hobbit
Ringwraiths - Refa'ei Hataba'at
Orc - Orc
Troll - Troll
Man - Adam
Elf - Elf (Alaf on LOTR, Shedonim on the Hobbit)
Dwarf - Gamad
Goblin - Goblin (Shedim on the Hobbit)

[Maikadilwen]

Ok, I've read it in English, but I've also got the Danish version somewhere. Oh that translation stinks. I'll post it when I've found it.

[Melian]

Don´t worry Birdland, my english is not that good either
smilies/biggrin.gif
It´s nice to know how names change in diferent languages. I wonder how they would sound in chinese or japanese...

[Joy]

Japanese, I may be able to help. I was just thinking about trnaslating the One Ring poem into Japanese today.

I would have to get my dictionary out, it has been nearly 3 yrs since I took Japanese, so I have forgoten some.

My Spanish is a little rusty also, it has been 4 yrs since communicating with anyone.

[Joy]

Enjin no san shozoku kingu no elfu entenka amanohara desu.
Enjin no shichi shozoku jouin no dwafu uchi no ishi desu.
Enjin no kyuu shozoku jin no inochi unmeiteki bossuru desu.
Enjin no ichi shozoku no akuma e bodou gyokuza no yuumei desu.
Gen'ya no Morudoru doko hokage harikomu desu.


Enjin no ichi e matsurigoto minna desu.
Enjin no ichi e aritsuku minna desu.
Enjin no ichi e tsurikomu to tokoyami shibarikomu minna desu.
Gen'ya no Morudoru doko hokage harikomu desu.

[Joy]

Here is the One Ring Poem in Japanese.

Enjin no san shozoku kingu no elfu entenka amanohara desu.
Enjin no shichi shozoku jouin no dwafu uchi no ishi desu.
Enjin no kyuu shozoku jin no inochi unmeiteki bossuru desu.
Enjin no ichi shozoku no akuma e bodou gyokuza no yuumei desu.
Gen'ya no Morudoru doko hokage harikomu desu.

Enjin no ichi e matsurigoto minna desu.
Enjin no ichi e aritsuku minna desu.
Enjin no ichi e tsurikomu to tokoyami shibarikomu minna desu.
Gen'ya no Morudoru doko hokage harikomu desu.

The literal translation is:
Rings of 3 for Kings of Elves under sky
Rings of 7 for Lord of the Dwarves in houses of stone.
Rings of 9 for mortal men destined to die.
Ring of 1 for the Lord of evil on the throne of darkness.
In the land of Mordor where shadows lie.

Ring of 1 to rule them.
Ring of 1 to aqquire them.
Ring of 1 to attact them and in eternal darkness bind them.
In the land of Mordor where shadows lie.

[Gabo Darvas]

I've just tried to find some evidences of Finnish-Hungarian grammatical relationship so I've disappeared for some days. smilies/biggrin.gif There are very difficult evidences but I can tell you examples, Elenglin.

Words starting with an 'h' in Hungarian always start with a 'k' in Finnish: hal = kala (fish); ház = kota (house). (I know it's not so much but I don't know other words.)

The ground of our vocabulary has Finnugor origin (not only Finnish of course; Estonish, Lappish etc.) If you like to know some of these words or compare, I will send you an e-mail. smilies/smile.gif But it's Tolkien's forum I guess... smilies/rolleyes.gif I'm sorry.

But last I must tell you a Finnish sentence very similar to the Hungarian one: 'Jönna vonna' = 'Jön a vonat' (Comes the train) It's maybe random - maybe not. smilies/wink.gif

Tolkien's words sound beautiful in Spanish and Hebrew. I just like the melody. smilies/wink.gif In Japanese - a bit funny but interesting.

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Gabo Darvas ]

[Birdland]

These are all so interesting! And Gabo cv, go ahead and discuss comparisons between Finnish and Hungarian. I thought that was interesting, too.

This has all brought up some questions though. I notice a lot of translations choose the word "destiny", which in English can be read as a rather neutral word, instead of "doom", with has a much harsher connotation. What would the word "doomed" be, and why wouldn't the translators use that?

Baggins and Bag End - In old English, "Bag" has connotations of collecting, or taking something. A "bag man" would be a thief. (Which makes sense when you read The Hobbit). To "bag" an animal means to hunt and shoot it, etc. I always thought that to translate it literally as a bag or sack was kind of unimaginative. Though I guess these translation were approved by Tolkien.

And Maeglin (ooops! Meant Melian) - I wondered about the translation "to govern them" myself. Why not use "to rule" (regentar), or would there be even an older word that would sound scarier?

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Elenglin]

Hiyah. Now, I translated the Poem literally. here:

kolme sormusta haltiakuninkaille alla auringon = Three rings for the elf-kings under the sun
seitsemän kääpiöruhtinaille kivisaleissaan = seven for the dwarf-lords in their halls of stone
yhdeksän ihmisille jotka vie tuoni armoton = nine for the men who are taken by the mercyloss doom (funny!!)
yksi Mustalle Ruhtinaalle valtaistuimellaan = one for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
Maassa Mordorin joka varjojen peittämä on = in the land of Mordor wich is covered by shadows

The rest is pretty much the same.. Hee.

And Gabo: Please, e-mail me smilies/smile.gif

[Weber]

Does any1 here know french?? (im learning french)

[Joy]

Does anyone know how the One Ring poem renders in German?

[Melian]

In fact the translation here is "Un anillo para gobernarlos a todos". You translated the poem correctly, Birdland. I just wasn´t so sure about the use of govern in the english version when you wrote:
Un Anillo para gobernarlos a todos.
("One Ring for to govern all")

Regarding the "doom" word, the spanish translation would be "condenado" with a very harsh connotation. Our poem goes: "Nueve para los Hombres Mortales condenados a morir", which I think it´s ok. What about the rest of the languages?

[Birdland]

Yeah! "condenar"...much better!

This is giving me a much better appreciation of the translator's art. (And art it is.)

Of course, Tolkien's work is emotionally broad. Everyone knows what kind of words are required to portray an epic tale.

I can't image trying to translate puns or social satire.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Here’s the ring poem in German:

Drei Ringe den Elbenkönigen hoch im Licht,
Sieben den Zwergenherrschern in ihren Hallen aus Stein,
Den Sterblichen, ewig dem Tode verfallen, neun,
Einer dem Dunklen Herrn auf dunklem Thron
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn.
Ein Ring, sie zu knechten, sie alle zu finden,
Ins Dunkel zu treiben und ewig zu binden
Im Lande Mordor, wo die Schatten drohn.

[Gabo Darvas]

Elenglin, I've sent you a private message. smilies/biggrin.gif (Succeeded?)

The poem in Hungarian is very artistic (and worthy!) and it's different from the English version. This 'doom'-affair does not even appear int the translation! smilies/wink.gif

"Kilencet halandó ember ujján csillantson a fény" is word-by-word: "Nine to the mortal men's fingers to blink by light" or something like that. It's maybe funny but has meaning in Hungarian...

I'm really interested in French version. smilies/biggrin.gif

If you are curious about this phylum thing I will continue it but I have to collect some other words and to translate to Finnish (with the help of Elenglin smilies/smile.gif )

[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Gabo Darvas ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Here are the most important names in German:

The Lord of the Rings – Der Herr der Ringe
Baggins – Beutlin (bag = Beutel)
Samwise Gamgee – Samweis Gamdschie
Gaffer – Ohm (old word for grandfather)
Strider – Streicher
Underhill – Unterberg
Took – Tuk
Brandybuck – Brandybock
Sackville-Baggins – Sackheim-Beutlin
Butterbur – Butterblume
Treebeard – Baumbart
Quickbeam – Flinkbaum
Barrow-wight – Grabunhold
Ringwraith – Ringgeist
Shelob – Kankra
Tweens – Zwiens
Shire – Auenland
Hobbiton – Hobbingen
Bywater – Wasserau
Bag End – Beutelsend
Brandywine – Brandywein
Barrow-Downs - Hügelgräberhöhen
Weathertop – Wetterspitze
Isengard – Isengart
Rivendell – Bruchtal
Mirkwood – Düsterwald
Misty Mountains – Nebelgebirge
Mount Doom – Schicksalsberg
Grey Havens – Graue Anfurten
Elves – Elben
Dwarves – Zwerge
Human – Mensch
Orc – Ork

These name translations were made with Tolkien’s consent and supervision. Other names were left as in the original books.

[Birdland]

The poem in Hungarian is very artistic (and worthy!) and it's different from the English version. This 'doom'-affair does not even appear int the translation!

"Kilencet halandó ember ujján csillantson a fény" is word-by-word: "Nine to the mortal men's fingers to blink by light" or something like that. It's maybe funny but has meaning in Hungarian...

See what I mean by translation being an art? The Hungarian translator chose not to follow a literal translation of the English, but instead used a reference or expression that has meaning to his readers, and conveys the same sense of menace and sorrow. (I have no idea what "blink of light" may mean in Hungarian, unless it's similar to the image of "candle in the wind", suggesting man's frailty.)

Yes, let's have a French translation. And maybe Latin?

[Melian]

I came across the Ring Verse in french. Hope you all enjoy it! I studied french in highschool, but it´s more than rusty so I don´t know some words

Trois pour les Rois d'Elfes sous le ciel d'azure,
Sept pour les Seigneurs Naîns dans leurs demeures de pierre,
Neuf pour les Hommes mortels destinés au trepas,
Un pour le Seigneur des Tenèbres sur son sombre trone,
Dans le pays de Mordor ou s'étendent les ombres.
Un Anneau pour les gouverner tous, un Anneau pour les trouver,
Un Anneau pour les amener tous et dans les tenèbres les lier
Au pays de Mordor ou s'étendent les Ombres.

[Rohirrim]

I read it in English and in Spanish, yes, Birdland, that´s are the correct traductions of the Spanish Books. smilies/smile.gif

[Gabo Darvas]

Here is the last part of the lesson about Finnish-Hungarian grammatical relationship. smilies/biggrin.gif

1. We use suffixes instead of prepositions to express adverbial circumstances in Hungarian. It works as same as in the other languages of phylum 'finnugor'.

2. More interesting part of the evidences smilies/smile.gif. Most important Hungarian words has finnugor origin (about 1200 words). We've translated some words to Finnish with Elenglin and discovered similarity, many times in pronunciation only but in some cases there is analogy in writing as well.

én = minä (me)
mi = me (we)
három = kolme (three)
száj = suu (mouth)
szív = sydan (heart)
vér = veri (blood)
hall = kuulla (to hear)
anya = äiti (mother)
atya = isä (father)
nő = noinen (woman)
víz = vesi (water)
tavasz = kevat (spring)
ősz = syksi (automn)
tél = talvi (winter)
fa = puu (tree)
méh = mehiläinen (bee)
puszi = pussata (kiss)
név = nimi (name)

Thanks for your attention! smilies/cool.gif
Where are you, Elenglin?

[Elenglin]

Here I am! Did u miss me? *thee hee* I just had to take this ugly ring to Mordor on my way to home..

I translated some Lotr-stuff more, but I've lost the freakin' paper.. *ugly words* That I remember, that Barrow Downs is 'Hautakerot' (hauta = grave) and Barrow-wight is 'Haudan haamu' (The ghost of the grave).

I also saw an interview about Juva, she's the one who translated Lotr English to Finnish. She said that she got the translation of Stider to Konkari when she was swimming in a pool! *laugh*

I'm suprised that the word 'Saruman' was not translated, after all it has the word 'man' in it. (Finnish it is Mies.)

BTW, I buyed The Ring to my self, it's cute! *thee hee again* It costed MILLIONS to me!

[Elenglin]

Why is english so hard?
Why do I must to do all those typos??

Grr, I say. Grr.

[Sidh]

Hello!

I can give you the translation of the poem in dutch (yeah, it's even translated in dutch, amazing in'it smilies/smile.gif)

Drie Ringen voor de Elfenkoningen op aard',
Zeven voor de Dwergvorsten in hun zalen schoon,
Negen voor de mensen, die de dood niet spaart,
Eén voor de Zwarte Heerser op zijn zwarte troon
In Mordor, waar de schimmen zijn,
Eén Ring om allen te regeren, Eén Ring om hen te vinden,
Eén Ring die hen brengen zal en in duisternis binden,
In Mordor, waar de schimmen zijn.

A so-so translation would be:

Three Rings for the Elvenkings on earth,
Seven for the Dwarvenlords in their beautiful halls,
Nine for the humans, who aren't spared from death,
One for the Dark Ruler on his black throne,
In Morder, where the shades are,
One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them,
In Mordor, where the shades are.

Fortunately the last part is almost the same
smilies/smile.gif

When I can find some more time, I'll try to look op the translations for some names and places...null

[Orodhromeus]

Here's the french:

The Lord of the Rings = Le Seigneur des Anneaux
FotR = La Communauté de l'Anneau
TTT = Les Deux Tours
RotK = Le Retour du Roi

Baggins = Sacquet
Took = Touque
Strider = Grands Pas (=big footsteps)
Hobbiton = Hobbitebourg
The Shire = La Compté
Bag-End = Cul-de-Sac (sac=bag)
Mirkwood = Forêt Noire (=black forest)
Mount Doom = La Montagne du Destin (destiny again)
Misty Mountains = Monts Brumeux
Weathertop = Mont Venteux (=Windy Mountain)
Ringwraiths = Esprits Servants de l'Anneau (serving spirits of the Ring)
Man = Homme
Dwarf = Nain
Bilbo = Bilbon
Frodo = Frodon
Drogo = Drogon
Shelob = Arachne (I don't like that one)
Rivendell = Fondcombe

The poem (minor corrections to Melian's version):
Trois Anneaux pour les Rois Elfes sous le ciel,
Sept pour les Seigneurs Nains dans leurs demeures de pierre,
Neuf pour les Hommes Mortels déstinés au trépas,
Un pour le Seigneur des Ténèbres sur son sombre trône,
Dans le Pays de Mordor ou s'étendent les Ombres.
Un Anneau pour les gouverner tous
Un Anneau pour les trouver
Un Anneau pour les amener tous
Et dans les ténèbres les lier
Au pays de Mordor ou s'étendent les Ombres.

There you go. smilies/smile.gif

[Maikadilwen]

And in Danish, as promised. Phew, this translation really sucks:

Tre har elvernes konger i dybeste skove,
Syv har dværgenes herrer i sale af sten,
Ni har mennesket dødeligt, dømt til at sove,
Én har mørkets fyrste for ondskab og mén
I Mordors land, hvor skygger ruge.
Én ring er over dem alle,
Én ring kan finde de andre
Én ring kan bringe dem alle,
I mørket lænke dem alle
I Mordors land, hvor skygger ruge.

Probably something like this:

Three have the elven kings in deepest woods
Seven have the dwarf lords in halls of stone
Nine has mortal man, doomed to sleep
One has the prince of darkness for evil and hurt
In the land of Mordor, where shadows brood
One ring is above them all
One ring can find the others
One ring can bring them all
In darkness chain them all
In the land of Mordor, where shadows brood

I really don't get the thing about the nine and the "doomed to sleep" thing. That's one thing they didn't do.

Lord of the Rings = Ringenes Herre
Baggins = Sækker
Samwise Gamgee = Samvis Gammegod
Strider = Traver
Gollum = Gollum
Hobbiton = Hobbitrup
(The)Shire = Herred(et)
Mirkwood = Dunkelskov (skov = wood)
Mount Doom = Dommedagsbjerget (bjerg = mountain)
Misty Mountains = Tågebjergene
Bree = Bri
Hobbit = Hobbit
Ringwraiths = Ringånder (ånd = ghost,wraith)
Orc = Ork
Troll = Trold
Man = Mand/menneske
Human = Menneske
Elf = Elver
Dwarf = Dværg

[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[Birdland]

Bag End = Cul-de-Sac(in French)
Orodhromeus, I had to laughed when I saw that! In America, a "cul-de-sac" is a fancy term we use to describe a dead end street in a suburban housing development.

Kind of ironic laughter, though, since the countryside where I grew up is now covered with housing developments, with lots of "cul-de-sacs", but alas, no Bag Ends. smilies/frown.gif

[Gabo Darvas]

Though I've learnt French at high school I haven't tried to translate it... smilies/rolleyes.gif I really like and respect French language. It's beautiful I think. smilies/smile.gif

Hobbitebourg is a cute word. smilies/wink.gif

[Orodhromeus]

LOL, Birdland! Actually "cul-de-" designs the end of something, or the bottom of something. But to use the entire "cul-de-sac" for something that's not even close to "sac" (Bag) is far off!

Indeed, I find Hobbitebourg beautiful too. I couldn't understand why it wasn't what was used in English, I even find it more beautiful than Hobbiton.

Some to complete the list:
Brandybuck = Brandebouc
Brandywine = Brandevin
Crickhollow = Creux-de-Cirque (!!!)
Uruk-Hai = Ourouk-Hai
Ugluk = Ouglouk (replace u with ou)
Gamgee = Gamegie
Gaffer = l'Ancient (=the Ancient)
Isildur's Bane = Le Fléau d'Isildur

[Birdland]

Orodhromeus - Hey, if you want something to sound better than it really is, give it a French name! smilies/smile.gif

So can we get any Greek translations? Can they be spelled phonetically with the Latin alphabet? (Can't read the Greek alphabet. smilies/frown.gif )

[Melian]

Hi! I´m glad to be back! I´ve been reading your posts and I agree about Hobbitebourg. Sounds really nice!

[Orodhromeus]

Well, however strange may it appear, I've lony read LotR in French & English, even though I'm Greek! But I guess I'll be able to get a list with the greek equivalents...

Kalimac, you just transcribed phonemically how the Russin sounds in latin alphabet didn't you? I'm going to do the same with the Greek, though I think, as with the French and any other language, that it messes a lot if you don't hear it spoken.

[Kalimac]

Orodhromeus (sorry if I misspelled that!) yes, I just wrote it phonetically in Latin characters - I've got a Cyrillic font but don't know how many people would be able to read it, and it's not much fun if you can't even get an approximate idea of how it sounds. Hmm, maybe I should go back and put the Cyrillic in there as well...what are the Greek equivalents? Looking forward the seeing those smilies/smile.gif - can't imagine what the Shire names would be translated like, especially. The French names are lovely - the only one that threw me was "Le Fleau d'Isildur." I don't know, but "fleau" just doesn't sound quite as *weighty* as "bane." (I don't know any French, just talking about the sounds). Is that what it translates to literally or are there other meanings for "fleau?"

[ March 23, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Orodhromeus]

Indeed, I'd translate "fléau" (pronounced flé-O, always stressed at the last vowel) as plague. It can be used for a disease or for anything negative (as the swarm of locusts in the Exodus of the Bible). But there's no closer word to translate "Bane" (to my knowledge).

My situation is a bit complicated, it's going to take a while to find it in Greek... Please be patient. smilies/smile.gif

[Orodhromeus]

In what follows:
"dh" stands for the sound "th" in 'the',
"th" stands for the sound "th" in 'thief',
"ch" stands for the sound of a stressed "h" in 'hack'.

At least here's the Ring poem (phonemically transcribed):

Tria dhachtylidhia echoune i Xotiki i Vasiliadhes katou,
Efta i Nani Archondes palatia pou choune mes ta pertadhia,
Ennia i Anthropi i Thniti pou choun ti mira tou thanatou,
Ena o Mavros Archondas pou vasilevei sta skotadhia,
Sti gi tis Mordor pou zoun Skies.

Ena olous na kyverna ke na tous vriski, Ena.
Ena na tous mazevi olous mazi me mavra magia, Ena.
Sti gi tis Mordor pou zoun Skies.
____

Xotiko = Elf (the word 'elf' is of scandinavian origin and has no real equivalent in Greek; Xotiko mostly stands for fairy tale creature)
Nanos (plural Nani) = Dwarf
Hobbit = Hobit
Ringbearer = Dhachtylidhokouvalitis (long, isn't it?)
Middle-Earth = Mesi-Gi

LotR = O Archondas ton Dhachtylidhion
FotR = I Syndrofia tou Dhachtylidhiou
TTT = I Dhyo Pyrgi
RotK = I Epistrofi tou Vasilia

The character names have been kept intact (in usual Greek translation style, which is often annoyingly revealing of the original tongue the book was written in...).

[Elenglin]

And some Finnish again:

Fotr = Sormuksen ritarit ('The knights of the ring')
Ttt = Kaksi tornia
Trotk = Kuninkaan paluu

Isildur's bane = Isildurin turma

..and more to come!

[Eärendil]

More Swedish:

Lotr - Sagan om Ringen (The Tale about/of the Ring)
Fotr - Sagan om Ringen / Ringens Brödraskap (The Tale about/of the Ring / The Brother/Fellowship of the Ring)
Ttt - Sagan om de Två Tornen (the Tale about/of the Two Towers)
Trotk - Sagan om Konungens återkomst (The Tale about/of the Return of The King)

I have never understood where the Swedish translator find the words "the tale about/of" in the English original title, but anyway..... smilies/rolleyes.gif

Isildur´s bane - Isildurs bane

[Birdland]

Orodhromeus - is "Dhachtylidhiou" the actual word for "ring" in Greek, or am I being too literal?

And in the last stanza of the poem, the "One ring to rule..." part, is the translator reiterating the word "One" at the end of each line?

Sitting there puzzling over the words, trying to match them up to the English terms, is fun. Kinda like looking at a LoTR Rosetta Stone.

[Orodhromeus]

smilies/biggrin.gif I see there are some very attentive posters at the Downs! I guess it comes from the attempts of learning sindarin & Black Speech using only the Fellowship of the Ring poems!

"Dhachtylidi" is the actual word for Ring; the suffix "-iou" shows possessive - sorry if that's not exact, grammar has never been my strong point. "-iou" along with "tou" translates "of the". Nouns, like verbs, are inclined in Greek - as in Latin or elvish et al.

Indeed, "Ena" (=One) is repeated at the end of each couplet. That's a literal translation:

Ena olous na kyverna ke na tous vriski, Ena.
One to rule them all and to find them, One.

Ena na tous mazevi olous mazi me mavra magia, Ena.
One to bring them all with dark magic, One.

Sti gi tis Mordor pou zoun Skies.
In the land of Mordor where shadows live.

I agree it's a rather hasty translation. Actually it's very bad.

While we're speaking of translations, I have another question which concerns style. IMO, one of the things that make Tolkien grate is his writing style. It makes things epic, the use of old english adds to that. It's not plain narration. It's a style comparable to the Iliad or Odyssey, two of mankind's greatest epics. My question is, how well is this style rendered in the translations in your respective languages, provided you've read it in English?

To answer on my behalf, the French translation does not only little to follow Tolkien's style but is one of the worst translations I've ever seen. It's full of mistakes: orthograph, disposition, omissions, counter-senses, bad translations... Éomer is written Eomir in the same page; in dialogues when the speaker changes you don't realize it until you've read half of what he's said because >> has been used instead of << ; when a character quotes another, closing brackets are ommitted; "son of Thengel Théoden" is translated "Théoden's son Thengel". I can make a whole list of the terrible mistakes the French edition has!!! And it's been translated only one, in the 50s!

As for the Greek one, I can't tell much. The poem is teribly translated. I personally believe Tolkien's style cannot be transposed in another language without losing a major part of the spirit & style. What do you think?

[Maikadilwen]

And some more to the Danish translation:

FOTR = Eventyret Om Ringen = The Tale Of The Ring

TTT = De To Tårne

ROTK = Kongen Vender Tilbage = The King Returns

Middle Earth = Midgård
Brandywine = Brændevin

[Birdland]

Having no other language but English, I can only assume that every culture has it's epic or formal style of speech or writing.

I would say that Tolkien is using the formal style of speech in his dialog, particularly with the the Men, Elves, and Dwarves. The Hobbits are mostly using a more casual form of 19th or early 20th Century rural speech, and characters like Sam and the Gaffer, are rendered in a rural dialect. (Saying "taters", instead of "potatoes", for instance.)

And Gollum! Well, his speech, with the drawn out "ssssss", suggest an almost reptilian form of speech, which suggest evil very nicely.

Tolkien's descriptive writing is pretty much set in the 19th/early 20th century form. I think his writing style is great. Some authors can really get bogged down in descriptions. Tolkien's visualizations are just right, poetic and rich, but not verbose.

I'm sure these forms could all be translated in other languages, if the translator can get into the "spirit" of the book. But maybe I'm wrong. Do they have an equivalent to written "dialect" in French or Greek? Would a King speak like "a King" in a book, and not like a peasant? How would you suggest the word "The Shire" in another language, since "Shire" in English immediately give a picture of a peaceful, rural setting, but wouldn't suggest anything to a Japanese or Spanish reader.

I'm really missing something, not knowing another language. smilies/frown.gif

[Sîdhrîs]

I've read the books in English, French and German and each version is special in its own way, but of course nothing compares to the original version.
The translations in the books I've read have been mentioned already, but I'm also learning Latin and so I decided to translate the poem into Latin, just for fun:

Dominus anulorum

Tres anuli pro regibus divarum sub caelo,
septem pro dominis nanorum in suis porticibus lapideis
novem pro hominibus mortalibus, damnati ad moriendum
unus pro Domino Atro in sua sella atra
in terra Mordoris qua umbrae iacent.
Unus anulus ad omnes regendum. Unus anulus ad omnes reperiendum,
unus anulus ad omnes portandum et ad illos alligandum in tenebris
in terra Mordoris qua umbrae iacent.

Of course I'm not an expert, but I've been doing Latin for six years now, so I think it's mostly correct.
By the way, does anybody have the Italian translation?

[Birdland]

Wow, it's beautiful in Latin. And I can almost recognize some of the words from my Spanish.

Yes, Italian! More! More!