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The Barrow-Wight
08-26-2000, 12:08 PM
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The Bridge of Khazad-dum was said to be a last defense should the First Hall be taken. Surely there must have been other ways in to the deeper (and much more expansive) 'inner halls'. How else could such mass amounts of Dwarves pass through the place. Any thoughts on this?

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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Suldaledhel
08-26-2000, 06:50 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Well certainly there must have. But I dont recall any specific mentions during my readings, but I'll take a closer look.

</p>

lindil
08-26-2000, 07:09 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> atlas?


Excellent Question! I just rea chapter a couple of days ago and wondered about the layout of Moria.
And why did the Orcs man the Lorien side of Moria and its door and not the side that opened up into the abandoned Eregion?
If anyone has the Atlas of M.E[ have seen it but don't own it] it may have some interesting insights on the bridge question.
lindil

</p>

galpsi
08-28-2000, 06:42 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: atlas?

Arguably, Lindil may have hit the answer, if indirectly. The main comings and goings of the dwarves, initially, might have been supposed to be through the west door that communicated with Eregion. The chiefest threat was from Dol Guldur which which Durin's Bridge defended against. So the inconvenience was tolerable. The orcs, likewise, faced their largest perceived threats from the East, (Lorien, etc.) They could expect very little in the way of active threat from depopulated Eregion. They had the secret door and the watcher there anyhow. Hardly a comprehensive answer, just some common-sense rationalization.

</p>

eljimbo
08-29-2000, 09:42 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Wasn't that evil monster from the lake

Wasn't that evil monster from the lake guarding the west door?

</p>

Grand Admiral Reese
08-29-2000, 12:37 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Wasn't that evil monster from the lake

The Watcher in the Water is a formidible guardian. The Orcs wouldn't really need to guard that side. The door was shut, and the Watcher was there. The Watcher would be just as dangerous to Orcish guards as to would-be invaders.


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gamegie
09-03-2000, 08:42 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I can't see the bridge being considered in any way as the main entrance, but consider this. If the Balrog could walk over the bridge and there is no mention of the company members having any problem with the narrowness of the bridge while passing it ( exept for Gandalf of course), why would the dwarves have any difficulties.

Frankly i would much prefer to have such barrier protecting my domain and be able to sleep easy at night than not to have it. Crossing it is but a small worry!

</p>

The Barrow-Wight
09-04-2000, 07:29 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

It wasn't the fear of crossing that I was considering, it was the incredible bottleneck such a barrier would create for any large group of beings to cross.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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mwcfrodo
09-04-2000, 09:17 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I think if the situation were desperate enough to retreat across the bridge, the large number would have already been seriously reduced and many would have been trapped on other floors. Most likely, it would have been hoped that a few could get out to seek aid or preserve the lineage (as was the case with the secret entry to the last lonely mountain) -- only the King under the mountain escaped by that route.

</p>

gamegie
09-04-2000, 08:28 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I cannot picture any bottle-neck occuring on the bridge. I see dwarves as very meticulous people. And I see them very good at moving in ordered and regimented lines.

Maybe you can tell me what this route out of the Moria was used for. Was it a link to the Lothlorien? If so why would it be very populated as dwarves and elves are not in good terms.

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000034>gamegie</A> at: 9/4/00 10:29:26 pm

HerenIstarion
10-20-2000, 07:19 PM
It is not certain that dwarves ever planned leaving Moria at all, and that is the reason of having such a narrow bridge and opportunity of bottle-necks and whatever. Moria was first place of awakening of dwarvish forefather, of Durin himself indeed, so it was impossible for any given longbeard dwarf to even imagine that his race would be forced out of Khazad-dm. So there were no secret doors on the west side and so on as it was in Erebor - a kingdom smaller an newer by far than Moria, where all fortification were outword oriented.After all, nobody expected a balrog as a home danger. So there was no planning of leaving Moria in large numbers in haste (save marching to war, but that would be well ordered and would not cause bottle-neck), as dwarves ever retreated inwards, not outwards.

The Barrow-Wight
10-20-2000, 07:58 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Inward-retreating is a very finite and dangerous idea. Dwarves were not stupid. No matter how much they loved their caverns and disliked the wide open skies, they understood very well that to stand in a corner left nowhere to run but out... unless they wanted to die. It didn't work for Morgoth, the most powerful being ever to menace Middle-Earth, so why would the Dwarves lock themselves in a hole??

Every creature knows by instinct to have a path of retreat... and a path of attack. For the Dwarves of Moria to limit themselves to a single-file egress (either defensive OR offensive) would be the biggest (and strangest) blunder in Middle-Earth military history.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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gamegie
10-20-2000, 08:33 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Therefore there must have been other exits facing in the same direction. However on different levels and maybe concealed and only known by the dwarves.

</p>

HerenIstarion
10-20-2000, 08:54 PM
Still they had the West door to retreat, with a friendly state of Eregion to back them, and lots of square miles of Moria itself to fight on the well-known grounds with an enemy probably not acustomed to military activities underground, so I hold that bridge was the only way out on the East side of the Hithaeglir.

The Barrow-Wight
10-21-2000, 06:41 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Gamegie is think along the lines I'm thinking. But speaking of the west door.... not a very good escape rout if you have to run 40 miles to get to it (or however far ir was). And a determined attacker would attack both ends of the snake.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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HerenIstarion
10-21-2000, 07:35 AM
To attack from both direction enemy would have had to cross Misty Mountains, which was no more easy than to cross bottomless abyss by one bridge alone, or turn around the mountains from the Ssouth. In both cases it was not possible for such a great army as would be sufficient for attack on Moria to remain unheeded by any (either dwarves or elves leaving both sides of Hithaeglir). In later days Rohan was established to the South, and the task became even harder, even though Hollin was left desolate.

Besides, 40 miles is not such a hard task for stout dwarves, and in their own home-cave for an advantage, where they knew every corner, and enemy must have been blundered and stumbling over roots and things :)

Mithadan
10-21-2000, 08:11 AM
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Durin awoke in Khazad-Dum?

Just by the way, HerenIstarion, per Peoples of Middle Earth, Durin awoke in Gundabad, not Moria. Which begs the question of why the notoriously vengeful dwarves would make war against all the orcs of the Misty Mountains over the death of Thror while allowing the orcs to inhabit the place of Durin's &quot;birth&quot;.

</p>

burrahobbit
10-21-2000, 08:19 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Moria is too large to have only one door. Dwarves have need of wood, it would be more effecient for them to bring it in close to their forges.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

Mister Underhill
10-21-2000, 09:44 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I'd bet the dwarves stoked their forges with coal mined from the earth rather than wood. And planning to defend forty miles worth of tunnels and complex cavern systems (no doubt built with traps, secret ways, and other bottlenecks) seems more likely than the dwarves planning for a mass exodus. And historically, the dwarves have shown themselves to be a proud and stubborn people determined to defend what's theirs even in the face of overwhelming odds. Look at Thorin &amp; Co. holding out against the combined armies of Elves and Men. I'd bet the dwarves who built the place designed it on the principle of defending it to the last dwarf against attackers.

Khazad-dum is like a big castle -- you don't build too many doorways in your castle or else you defeat the purpose of having a castle. Though I think it's likely that there were at least a few hidden and/or difficult to reach auxiliary entrances along the eastern side.

I agree with HerenIstarion's analysis that a combined attack from West and East seems impractical both from a logistical and a strategic point of view.

</p>

The Barrow-Wight
10-21-2000, 10:04 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

A narrow bridge spanning a 'bottomless' pit is a great defense, but a ridiculous obstacle for even normal traffic, let alone 'mass exoduses'. I wonder how many accidental deaths resulted from the bridge over the years. And what about any eporting they may have done out of the Eastern Gate? It was wide enough to take a wagon load of ore out of, but the bridge would force the Dwarves to pack anything out item by item.

Again, I think the bridge was just used for defensive purposes and there must have been other routes, easily sealed or destroyed in case of invasion, used for the more mundane travel that needed to reach the East gates of the caverns.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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Voronwe
10-21-2000, 11:20 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Although how would they manage to get a wagonload of ore down the 'huge and age-worn steps' outside the east gate? <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">



-Voronw
"voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star."</p>

The Barrow-Wight
10-21-2000, 12:15 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Hinting at other eastern exits, Voronwe? <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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Voronwe
10-21-2000, 02:12 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

It certainly seems possible that there were other exits apart from the main east gate, though they may have been destroyed later. Compare this to the lonely mountain, which had many ways in and out until Smaug blocked them up.

Of course, there's always the possibility that the dwarves had a bigger bridge that they could remove or destroy during an attack, and that the stone bridge was the only permanent way across the abyss.


-Voronw
"voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star."</p>

HerenIstarion
10-21-2000, 09:45 PM
Gundabad? What about Gimli's poem and Durin going down to see the stars in a lake and stuff?
Can't check it (no books on), take your word for it :)

As for wagonloads carried along the bridge, is not it true that main trade of Khazad-dm went with Hollin trough the West Gate?

gamegie
10-23-2000, 12:06 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I believe Voronwe could have put his finger on it, the dwarves probably had some sort of mechanism enabling a larger platform to bridge the gap. Of which the orcs or Gandalf knew nothing.
The bridge of Kazad Dum being the only permanent structure, it would not have been difficult for people capable of making the Magic door near the Door Watcher to make a moving bridge to enlarge the entrance in the East.

Any views..

</p>

HerenIstarion
10-23-2000, 09:42 AM
But there was no Watcher at all at the West Gate in the time of prosperity of the dwarves. Sirannon was blocked only after the fall of Khazad-dm, wasn't it?

The Barrow-Wight
10-23-2000, 10:02 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Correct, Heren-Istarion. The Watcher came later. But that doesn't really have anything to do with gamegie's supposition about bridges and mechanisms. I believe g. was just specifying which Magic door he meant.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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HerenIstarion
10-23-2000, 11:08 AM
BW, point taken, indeed, remark in my previous was due to sheer nastiness on my behalf. Apologies :)

But there is still no evidence there were more than one entrances in the East.

Mithadan
10-24-2000, 06:11 AM
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Lets think this through. The dwarves did not grow their own food, but acquired it in trade. They would have the need to be able to load and unload wagons, both of ore and finished products as well as foodstuffs. While Eregion existed, it could be supposed that the West was the primary entrance/exit, so perhaps there would be little need for greater access is the East.

After Eregion fell, this would have changed. The doors were shut and greater access would be required in the East. There are several options. Wagons could have been kept outside the gate and materials loaded/unloaded from shafts via pulleys, or, more likely, there were other entrances. Consider. The orcs of Moria pursued the Company to Lorien after they left Moria. The orcs could not have gone out the West Gate and crossed the mountains via the Dimrill Stair because the Watcher had blocked it. There must have been, at least, a &quot;service&quot; entrance in the East. Of course, the orcs may have built it. Ask not the elves for advise because they will answer both yea and nay.

--Mithadan--
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were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Saulotus
10-24-2000, 11:17 AM
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Earlier I saw a remark about Durin awakening in Moria. Incorrect. He did awaken in Gundabad.

Why does there need to be a service entrance?
The gates are described as GREAT gates. Not narrow single file doors.
As for the broken bridge; the trolls could have easily moved the gangways (or created new ones) to cross the broken section of the span of Durin's bridge.

</p>

Mithadan
10-24-2000, 11:59 AM
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

The reference to Durin awakening in Gundabad is in HoME 12, which also provides names for the Seven Houses of the Dwarves.

The focus of this discussion is less about how did the orcs follow the Company than about how the dwarves, as a practical matter, got in and out and got their materials in and out on the East side of the mountains. The single file bridge does not seem compatible with a trade based society such as the dwarves. The &quot;service entrance&quot; is proposed keeping dwarven trade in mind. Another possibility is a drawbridge over the chasm (not unlike what the trolls may have done if they had long enough gangways available)which could be raised or destroyed at time of attack on Moria. Such a drawbridge apparently did not exist at the end of the Third Age.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Saulotus
10-24-2000, 05:50 PM
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

The trade based society was mostly through the Western side with the Elves of Eregion.

There is no textual evidence of any kind that trade was a major part of dwarven society after the closure of Moria. The alliance of Moria with the Men of Anduin disintegrates at this time.
Celeborn makes reference to the Dark Years, and states that no Dwarf of Durin's line has set foot on Cerin Amroth in a long time. There is reference to communication being severed between Moria, the Iron Hills, and Gundabad at its retaking by Orcs. Moria is said to be near impregnable after its closure.

The East Gates in fact were less friendly to the open world. They had runes warning of prohibition, exclusion and commands that all should depart in all commonly known languages.

(Translation: No solicitation, beware of dog, keep out)

What little trade that 'might' still have existed would have been adequate for the entrance present.

It IS possible to move large objects around using a small passage width, as anyone who has moved freezers into and out of a house doorway knows (and there were no walls on the bridge-span to contend with).

</p>

The Barrow-Wight
10-24-2000, 06:46 PM
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

And yet 'long ago a great paved way had wound upwards from the lowlands of the Dwarf Kingdom' If the bridge was all Dwarves needed to move in and out of Moria (moving ore, frezers, whatever), I'm surprised a narrow path did not suffice so see them down from the mountains.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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Mithadan
10-24-2000, 07:57 PM
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Yes, there is a lack of textual evidence of dwarven trade to the East. But one does not have to see the sun to know it rises in the morning. The dwarves grew no food of their own (don't make me look for the cite, its out there) and relied upon trade for basic supplies. Eregion was destroyed and nothing took its place. The East Gate of Moria is shut. The nearest trading partners to the West are distant, even after Gondor comes into being. The nearest trading partners are the men of the Anduin vale and the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood until Gondor and Arnor are formed 1700 years after the fall of Eregion. A single file bridge is not sufficient for passage of wagons.

Either we have some VERY hungry dwarves, or they are trading to the East and if they are trading to the East, there is a way for wagons to be loaded or unloaded and materials to get in and out of Moria. Wagonless caravans? Possible but impracticle. We know dwarves use wagons. Dwarves brought goods to Bilbo's farewell party via wagon.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

dogtrot
10-24-2000, 08:42 PM
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

them dwarves is hardy folk. i reckon they could haul all they needed up the mountain and through the back door. even if it was very physical labor. it may seem tiresome work for us but they are dwarves after all.

</p>

Mithadan
10-24-2000, 09:27 PM
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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Hey Dogtrot. Long time no see. Hardy yes, but Gimli passed out after carting three canoes down the rapids. Doesn't bode well for dwarves carrying bags of ore or finished metal products. Could be but doesn't make good sense. Dwarves just seem too &quot;efficient&quot;.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Gwaihir the Windlord
10-24-2000, 10:24 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Essence of Darkness
Posts: 440</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I seem to have noticed a growing trend in the downs: as a rule, 50% of dogrots posts are met with 'hey, dogtrot's back', 'where have you been lately?' or as Mithadan has just put it, 'dogtrot, long time no see'.
They could have had an underground canal, where the ore was shipped up to the caverns. Or brought it through on carts pulled by either dwarves or horses.

Usually keeping a lookout over http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabadMount Gundabad</a> and http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi The Barrowdowns</a> Middle-Earth Discussion Boards</p>

Mithadan
10-25-2000, 05:45 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 265</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I was teasing. I was in the chat room with Dogtrot just before I made my post. Canal is possible, but, as Saulotus says, no textual evidence. Wagons are much more likely, but to bring matters full circle they can't get over the Bridge.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Saulotus
10-25-2000, 07:27 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 198</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> posted by Mithadan
'A single file bridge is not sufficient for passage of wagons.'<hr></blockquote>
There are steps up to the gates. No wagons went inside the gates.
I think you are confused as to the ingress description and surrounding environment, much as RKittle seems to be about the need for a narrow path OUTSIDE Moria.

The info I supplied earlier is not conjecture, but taken straight from OF DWARVES AND MEN for the most part of it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> posted by Mithadan
'The dwarves grew no food of their own (don't make me look for the cite, its out there).'<hr></blockquote>
Better look, and make sure its applicable to the period AFTER Moria is closed.
I am not aware of any such 'quote' other than what people have thought was a quote and direct information; same as the idea that the Witch King was Numenorean.

</p>

The Barrow-Wight
10-25-2000, 07:44 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1536</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I certainly wasn't confused, but perhaps my meaning was confusing. I'll clarify.

If traffic was so slow on the Eastern side of Moria,why was such a wide paved way needed down to the 'lower Dwarven Kingdom'? Previous arguments have suggested there was little or no reason for such a road. I say the highway shows evidence of high traffic and thus support for the possibility of secondary exits and/or bridges.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Mithadan
10-25-2000, 08:06 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 267</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

HoME 12, Peoples of Middle Earth, p. 302.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;There dealings between Men and the Longbeards must soon have begun. For the Longbeards, though the proudest of the seven kindreds, were also the wisest and most farseeing. Men held them in awe and were eager to learn from them; and the Longbeards were willing to use Men for their own purposes. Thus there grew up in those regions the economy, later characteristic of the dealings of Dwarves and Men (including Hobbits): Men became the chief providers of food, as herdsmen, shepards, and landtillers, which the Dwarves exchanged for work as builders, roadmakers, miners, and the makers of things of craft, from useful tools to weapons and arms and many other things of great cost and skill. <hr></blockquote>

The next page addresses the alliance of Dwarves and Men of the &quot;House of Hador&quot; who lived in the Anduin vale during the Second Age. The alliance was, first, for defense and, second, for trade.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>[i]

HerenIstarion
10-25-2000, 08:47 AM
Mithadan, but is it stated that dwarves were specially settling nearby humans to have such an economy handy?

Well, one speculation deserves another - there is no textual evidence allright that dwarves had any kind of agriculture, but here we have mere lack, whilst arguing more than one entrance in the East, we choose to contradict clear textual statement. Sure, they must have had something to eat when settled in desolate places, with no neighbours at all?

Is there a quote mentioning dwarves using wagons for transporting anything? OK, there were carts bringing some stuff to Bilbo's party, still I can't pull out any notion about wagons used in caves.

PS Saul and Mith, you were right about Gundabad. I was confused by Gimli's song, when pointing at Durin's awakening in Moria.

Mithadan
10-25-2000, 10:13 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 270</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

The Dwarves didn't settle in desolate places. They settled where there were neighbors. Moria was not remote, it had neighbors to both the East and the West until Sauron tore through Eregion and Eriador. And yes, the quote from JRRT does imply that Dwarves or at least Durin's folk intentionally settled near Mannish settlements.

The quote I provided was not the one I was looking for, but the rest of the pages cited establish clearly that Dwarves prefer to dedicate their time to mining, building, manufacturing, etc. rather than farming and tending livestock. No, the quote doesn't establish that Dwarves never produced their own food, only that they prefer not to. After Eregion fell and Eriador laid waste, Durin's folk would have traded to the East rather than becoming farmers. You can't grow crops in underground caverns of rock and there is no evidence that Dwarves took land to the East (or West) to use for farming.

So we have: the Dwarvish preference to trade for food; no evidence that they did or did not farm, etc.; an absence of trading partners to the West; and the existence of trading partners to the East. This suggests that at least some trade to the East took place after the fall of Eregion and trade would require adequate ingress/egress in the East.

Also, the trading pattern of Durin's folk is also evidenced in the Lonely Mountain - Dale/Laketown relationship.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Mister Underhill
10-25-2000, 10:43 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 141</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Just to add a little gas to the fire...

Khazad-dum was a fortress, so it seems likely that the dwarves would have made provisions for stockpiling food to sustain them in the event of a siege or a falling out with their trading partners.

There's no evidence that they used wagons to move trade goods around inside Moria after they had been dropped off by trading partners, so why is it so unbelievable that they'd carry such goods the few extra yards from the gate over the bridge? Ditto with exports. It seems unlikely that they'd have huge caravans arriving daily with goods. The bridge seems an ample provision for traffic even for a once-a-week caravan.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 10/25/00 12:45:28 pm

The Barrow-Wight
10-25-2000, 11:01 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1541</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Wagons are not the issue here, a bottleneck bridge as an only entrance is. And Khazad-dum was a fortress-city... an entire Kingdom.... with the needs of a Kingdom. Stockpiles would be used for emergency purposes. But we're talking regular day-to-day requirements.

The words textual evidence come up often in these type of arguements to refute sometimes the most obvious of things. Just because we never saw an old wagon (or cart) wheel laying around in Moria doesn't mean they didn't have or use them. We never saw a bed in there but I doubt if they all slept on the floor. Beds (and carts/wagons) are practical things unneccesary for JRRT to write about.

The bridge was noted as a defense mechanism.





The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Mister Underhill
10-25-2000, 11:23 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 142</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Ron, you seem to be assuming massive freeway-type traffic in and out of the east gate that seems counter to common sense, too. Where's all this in-and-out coming from? The bridge, plus maybe an additional removable span or two, would surely meet all travel requirements. I'm not denying that the dwarves had carts or wheelbarrows or such to move things around more easily inside Moria. But did they have wagons and maintain horses or ponies to pull them around inside the tunnels and hallways? This doesn't seem likely given the dwarvish distaste for mounted travel. So then logically any carts they used would be small in size and manageable by one or a few dwarves. And we can only guess at the food requirements for dwarves.

</p>

dogtrot
10-25-2000, 11:39 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 68</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

well maybe the wagons and horses belonged to the men that they were trading with. men could come with wagons of supplies, spend days or weeks even unloading and transporting the goods over the bridge or by some other dreamed up contraption which the good professor did not bother to write about. then the dwarves would give these men their crafts and the men used those same wagons to haul that dwarvish ironmongery away.

</p>

The Barrow-Wight
10-25-2000, 11:44 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1542</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

And you seem to be assuming an entire population of an entire Kingdom of Dwarves would use one thin, arched bridge as the only way in and out of their Kingdom. This also defies common sense. Textual evidence or not. I didn't build the 'great paved way', but I did ask that if there was no Dwarves using it, why build it? So the enemies could rush up and see the great skinny bridge defense mechanism? <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> I don't think so. If the entire eastern side of Moria was nothing but a defense buffer, the road would have best been nothing more than a narrow path for the occasional longbeard that passed along it. Now that'd make sense.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Mister Underhill
10-25-2000, 12:11 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 144</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

And I think you're viewing the dwarvish traffic needs through the eyes of a 21st century American. How big is the &quot;great paved way&quot;? An eight-lane superhighway like the 405? A two-lane cobble-stone street? Okay, the dwarves built a road leading up to the east gate. Sure, any military force departing Khazad-dum would need some room to spread out and form up. And that pavement would make it easier for the wagons of their eastern trading partners to approach and depart. But does this mean that the road was choked with traffic? Or that the bridge span was insufficient for normal traffic? There's a whole kingdom of dwarves in there, but how many are going in and out the eastern side at any given time? A few patrols. The occasional envoy. Not much of a traffic problem there. Even a large clan of dwarves heading to the Iron Mountains to pay a visit to their kin could pass over the bridge in a matter of minutes. And of course, trade. How big is a large caravan? Twenty wagons? Forty? Those dwarves are industrious little fellows. I'm sure they could off-load even forty wagon-loads of goods in a few hours.


</p>

The Barrow-Wight
10-25-2000, 01:30 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1544</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

You know what?! You are gross!!! At least your number of posts is !! <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Anyways, as in our previous arguments with other subjects *cough* *trolls*, you think too much. Mathmatics must be your major, because you are always figuring. I'm just a reader. But here's some abstract math formulas:

'narrow span' + 'great paved way' = bottleneck.
Dwarven Kingdom (Moria) &gt; skinny bridge &lt; lower Dwarven Kingdom = bottleneck (again)

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 10/25/00 3:33:28 pm

Mister Underhill
10-25-2000, 01:49 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 145</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Hey, only... hmm... 1400 posts to go to catch up to you. Wait! Er... make that 1399 counting this one! <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> (Sorry for the heavy math. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> )

I'm no math major -- far from it. In fact, I took a BFA degree and didn't have a single math course in college. My specialty is imagination. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

I'm just trying to fill in the gaps in a plausible way using my imagination, just as in another thread which will go unnamed *coughtrolls*. First you ding me for not filling in logical, common sense gaps in the &quot;textual evidence&quot;, then you ding me for thinking too much.

Of course the bridge is a bottle-neck. The bottle-neck is the whole point. But only when you're trying to quickly move large numbers across it. The only reason I can think of that you would need to move large numbers quickly through the east gate would be in support of an invasion. Hence the bridge's effective defensive posture.

Consider that the Orcs appear to have occupied Moria for years (presumably without the benefit of trading partners) with no access through the West Gate and only the bridge in the East.

</p>

The Barrow-Wight
10-25-2000, 02:07 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1545</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I don't know much about the occupation of Moria by Orcs, but I don't think it was ever a complete occupation... more like a garrisoning. I could be very wrong about this though.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Saulotus
10-25-2000, 06:24 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 199</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

First:
Mithadan; your quote isn't even relevant to Moria. It's concerning Gundabad and the surrounding area in the First Age when the alliance with the northmen began, not Khazad-dum, and certainly not about the Third Age.

Second:
The great road is from the First and early part of the Second Ages.

Third:
There seems to be some confusion about the ability to grow crops inside Moria.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien The Fellowship of the Ring
'There used to be great windows on the mountain-side, and shafts leading out to the light in the upper reaches of the mines.'

'And of old it was not darksome, but full of light and splendor.'<hr></blockquote>
So unless you believe that it's impossible to grow crops indoors with a plentiful light source...

The eastern end was the habitable section.
The west gate wasn't constructed until the Second Age.
The dwarves simply preferred not to consider agriculture (in the First Age and early Second) not that they couldn't or didn't.
Moria's gates were shut. Both ends.

Anyone ever remember 'We cannot get out'?

</p>

The Barrow-Wight
10-25-2000, 06:54 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1546</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Must have been splenid crops of veggies growing in those upper regions where the sunlight hit because crops don't grow by torchlight. To suggest that the Dwarves of Moria subsisted only on the output of shaft-light-grown crops is getting silly.

Are you saying the Bridge was a Third-age innovation and not contemporary with the road leading away eastward? If so, what was their great defense before the bridge? And if not, then the bridge and the Road existed and were used concurrently and we are back to my initial arguement: if a road was neccesary for traffic leading eastward, then the bridge would only serve as bottleneck.



The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Saulotus
10-25-2000, 07:23 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 202</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Seems the 'Great windows on the mountain-side' was missed.
Yes, there were indeed many shafts for light also.

A bottleneck for shorter dwarves or possible invaders?
The whole point of defense is to restrict access, not allow free reign to advance.

</p>

The Barrow-Wight
10-26-2000, 04:27 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1547</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Nothing missed.

Shafts or great windows.... doesn't matter.... the side of the mountain would have to be gone to have enough sunshine to support fields for even a fraction of such a big city. And if these windows were indeed so 'great' then they would be a security threat... who knows what creatures might by crawling into them.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The whole point of defense is to restrict access, not allow free reign to advance. <hr></blockquote>

'restrict access' are they key words here that have been my point all along.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Mithadan
10-26-2000, 06:16 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 272</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Disagree that the quotes I profferred apply only to First Age. I didn't want to copy 2+ pages of text. Arguably, the initial quote MAY refer to the First Age though not necessarily limited to Gundabad (which was where Durin woke, but not necessarily where the Longbeard kingdom settled). But it states that the economic system described was &quot;characteristic&quot; of later Dwarf-Man relationships. The later discussion about interactions between Dwarves and the Men of the &quot;House of Hador&quot; living in Anduin Vale is expressly about the Second Age. By the Third Age, Gondor and Arnor existed and some trade could have resumed from the West Gate. But there are 1700 years between the fall of Eregion and the laying waste of Eriador by Sauron and the end of the Second Age (See Tale of Years). During this lengthy period, the Dwarves of Moria necessarily had to look East for trade.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Mister Underhill
10-26-2000, 08:11 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 146</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I am prepared to concede that the Dwarves traded to the east, but I still haven't heard a hint of why the bridge is insufficient for their trading needs. It's faulty logic to assume that because they built a &quot;great paved way&quot; it was thronged with constant in and out traffic. Why build it, you've asked? I've already mentioned several reasons for having the road that don't suggest huge amounts of travel on it. Add to those reasons the obvious fact that for purely aesthetic reasons, the dwarves wouldn't build some wimpy little rock-strewn footpath leading up to their underground kingdom/city. You come up that (no doubt) wonderfully crafted and impressive road and you know you are coming into the realm of the Dwarves, you dig?

And anyway, your own contention re: the road seems to argue against a more convenient and spacious auxiliary entrance. If they have a big loading dock of some kind with less restricted access, why doesn't the paved trade road lead to that? Even if you postulate an alternate gate, you still have the main road leading to the East Gate, so what gives? Your argument isn't answered by having an additional gate. You still have the great paved way leading to a bottleneck. In fact, I suggest that the presence of a great paved way leading to the East Gate implies that it was their primary (and therefore, likely only) real entrance on the East Side.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 10/26/00 10:14:26 am

Saulotus
10-26-2000, 09:32 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 206</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Disagree all you wish.
A simple reading of the material states the time periods involved.
You're sub-creating and extrapolating on evidence that doesn't apply to the situation.
The quote concerned the first age, and parts of the second BEFORE the Numenoreans arrived.
It even goes on to state that this was before Moria was established.

Moria was closed and the alliance disintegrated totally.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien Of Dwarves and Men
{Concerning the closure of Moria and the effects of the War}
'The Men of the Old alliance were diminished and scattered, and those that lingered on in their old regions were impoverished, and lived mostly in caves or in the borders of the forest.'<hr></blockquote>

The beginnings of the Woodmen of Mirkwood.

A further quote concerning the alliance of Dwarves and Men:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien Of Dwarves and Men
{Concerning the names of Dwarves}
'And continued to be given (and often repeated) for something like four thousand years or more since the Alliance was destroyed by the power of Sauron!.'<hr></blockquote>

This establishes the time frame for the destruction of the alliance AND explains the creation of the 'unique' names of the Dwarves having thier origins in a 'long dead' mannish language.

The Dwarves lessened the alliance before the destruction of the Men of the Vales to establish an alliance with the Elves of Eregion.

The 'characteristic' you are describing concerns The Iron Hills, the Ered Luin, Ered Mithrin, and later Erebor areas, not Moria. It was CLOSED. That's how they survived the wars of the time, though the population began to decline.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien The Return of the King Appendix A
{Concerning the closure of Moria and it's result on population}
'Thus it's wealth remained long unravished, though its people began to dwindle.'

The speculation on additional entrances, trading, agriculture and whatnot is turning into flights of fancy due to the disregard to textual statements, and in many places contradicts text entirely from the attempt.

Concerning Master Underhill's statement of the Road:
Absolutley correct. I attempted to make that clear earlier for others with the statement concerning the West Gate being built in the Second Age. Before this time the East gate was the only entrance, but thank you for doing so in a more concise<hr></blockquote>

</p>

Mithadan
10-26-2000, 10:31 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 275</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I think we need an agreement to disagree here. We could go back and forth forever. Examples; no west gate until Eregion arises means no westward trade heightening the need for eastward trade; the section of HoME 12 that we've been trading quotes from does not say Gundabad only and footnote 30 clearly implies Dwarvish presence in the Moria area; footnote 29 says dwarves didn't like to ride horses, but &quot;never&quot; raised animals, so where did their meat come from; the dwarf-man alliance died in mid-Second Age but then Sauron was defeated in Eriador with the assistance of Numenor and retreated leaving eastward trade more or less open but still no one to the West; there is no textual evidence that the dwarves used the lightshafts to grow crops, etc. To these, there are a number of contrary responses (no horses = no wagons, the men of the North were diminished and impovershed, etc.). We disagree on this point. Nice discussion, good points all around.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Saulotus
10-26-2000, 11:09 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 209</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> posted points by Mithadan
'...does not say Gundabad only and footnote 30 clearly implies Dwarvish presence in the Moria area...'

'...means no westward trade heightening the need for eastward trade...'
'...retreated leaving eastward trade more or less open but still no one to the West...'

'...there is no textual evidence that the dwarves used the lightshafts to grow crops...'<hr></blockquote>

Concerning Gundabad and environs:
The section references Gundabad and the early establishment of Moria in the First Age. I have never disputed that trade existed before Moria was closed, only its existance AFTER its closure.
Footnote 30 (as you point out) is applied to the Second Age, and again relates to BEFORE its closure.

Concerning eastward trade:
The Men of Anduin are ravaged by Easterlings and Orcs.
{QUOTE]J.R.R. Tolkien Of Dwarves and Men
'The Men of the Alliance were involved in war not only with Orks but with alien Men of evil sort. For Sauron had acquired dominion over many savage tribes in the East (of old corrupted by Morgoth), and he now urged them to seek land and booty in the West. When the storm passed , the Men of the old Alliance were diminished and scattered, and those that lingered...' (etc. as quoted previously)[/quote]

Concerning Light shafts and (stated) great windows:
Absolutely, but it is taken in context of known information and was simply a rebuttal to the idea presented that it was 'impossible' to grow food in Moria. The stretch wasn't nearly as great as imagined (and within text concerning Morias' lighting) when compared to other ideas presented (and actually my only speculation in the area presented) without even examining possibilities on unscalable High Elevation gardens (or animal compounds) or other such speculative ideas which wander beyond text.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> By Mithadan
Nice discussion, good points all around.<hr></blockquote>
I may seem to be harsher than I am in this discussion, and have no problem with discussions of speculation of this nature, but I do when it alters text (and disregards it in some cases) in order to make a point.
'Kirk'ism isn't a quality I ascribe to in discussions.

But agreed, a nice discussion.
So an agreement to disagree seems best.

</p>

HerenIstarion
10-27-2000, 12:33 PM
Hm, it seems I missed a lot of good discussion. By the way, what about mushrooms? It is not hard at all to raise mushroom farms in the cave, I reckon.

The Barrow-Wight
10-27-2000, 12:53 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1550</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Yeah! And the hallucinagenic ones, too! There was no balrog. The Dwarves were all just stoned!

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

burrahobbit
10-27-2000, 02:50 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 508</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Unless I am mistaken, wouldn't the mushrooms need to grow on some kind of organic matter? Now that I've said (and thought about) that, perhaps they made use of rotting logs. Could a person live on just mushrooms? Let's assume that Dwarves require the same nutrients in the same amounts as humans do to make matters simpler, unless somebody can find it in the text.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

gamegie
10-28-2000, 05:25 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 106</TD><TD><img src=http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1285585&a=9527321&p=31346468 WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I don't think that anyone, including dwarves could survive on mushrooms only. But why not with a bit of meat?

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

HerenIstarion
02-14-2001, 02:33 PM
Aye, roasting occasional goblin trespasser :rolleyes: This dusty topic proved to be very interesting, so I want to revive it a bit for the newcomers.

Per instance, what of the trade was with the west partners, whatever befell? The men of Anduin's vale were not thatcivilized after all, to have advanced agriculture. Dwarves had no difficulty to bring up goods for Bilbo's party from Erebor, so the distance of trade may be counted as a weak argument against West trade theorem. Also, there is 'great passage of dwarves' through the Shire mentioned somewhere. In the west there were dwarven mines in Blue Mountains, but what was the need of such a comings and goings to the East? It seems too me it was not so difficult to establish trade not only with Western dwarvish settlements, but even with the Shire itself (why not, if even Saruman was able to get pipe-weed there?)

looking up Tale of Years:
1601 - Shire established
1636 - The great Plague, Eriador is desolate, but Shire survives
1981 - Moria is left by dwarves

Between 1636 and 1981 there were all possibilities to trade to the West

More speculations, of course, but to the barrier, gentlemen!

Mithadan
02-14-2001, 03:14 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 609</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Aiii. The &quot;Bridge&quot; thread lives!

I forgot about the plague. All the more reason to trade to the East? <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Imp
02-14-2001, 03:23 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 13</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Hehe...

Man I bet the flames radiating off the Balrog were making them mushroom eating Dwarves a lil psychotic <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

</p>

Master Caractacus
02-14-2001, 05:34 PM
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Gilthalion here...

What a collection of speculation and scholarship! (Far be it from me to say which is which! <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

I lack the resources of many of you, but I have two cents I'd like to pitch into the abyss.

Even if the Dwarves lined the shafts with mithril, it would not catch enough sunshine to grow enough food to support the entire population of Moria. A reflective surface to the shafts would be needed to maximize sunlight, moonlight, etc. Regular silver might do, but anything except mithril would likely tarnish. Still, wealthy dwarves may do much. Failing this sort of engineering, the shafts would only give the direct sunlight needed for vegetative growth when the sun shone directly through them. This might happen a couple of hours a couple of days of the year. While reflective inner surfaces would be an expensive improvement (that they may have had, before stipped away by greedy orcs!), it would still not provide the necessary illumination for gardening on this scale.

As for fungal growth, indirect light is still needed. Mushrooms actually do NOT grow in absolute darkness. They also do not provide all of the nutrition needed. (Unless Aule crafted them with different nutritional needs. They certainly seemed to relish everything in Bilbo's pantry!)

As someone mentioned, even mushrooms require a growth medium (rotten logs for instance). This would still necessitate massive deliveries of materials.

What was the population of Moria?

For the sake of this exercise, let's assume 100,000.

Each healthy Dwarf (excluding the inevitable Bombur) would need a good 2,500 calories or so.

Let's also say this is a generous 4 lbs of food stuffs. (We'll leave water aside.) Let's also say that each Dwarf required something like 4 pints of beer/wine/mead/ale each day.

That is a total of about 8 lbs of food and drink at, say, 1/2 cubic foot of volume.

That means that 800,000 lbs, or 400 tons of food delivered each day for every 100,000 dwarves. (One assumes a buffering inventory is kept and rotated on a first-in-first-out basis.) This would occupy a volume of about 50,000 cubic feet. It could be piled in a space 10' high by 30' wide by 166 2/3' long. Thirty such rooms would provide food and drink for a month without rationing.

Let us assume a standard cargo container (wagon load) of 5' wide by 10' long by 2' deep. That is 100 cubic feet for each 1600 pound cargo. (One could easily double that, but let's not strain the capacity of the dwarvish wagons.)

That is 500 wagonloads daily.

Assume that shipments are normally received 24/7.

If only one wagon could be carted across at a time, then a wagonload of goods would have to cross the abyss every 2 minutes 52.8 seconds. (If my math is correct! Double the volume of each wagonload and you can make that 250 wagons at 5 minute 45.6 second intervals.)

If there are more or less dwarves, the calculation's change.

It might have happened something like this...




Gar drove his cart along slowly, in line with the others. This was his second and final shipment of the day, when delivered, he looked forward to heading to the hall with the rest of the crew for some of the very beer he had been hauling.

Slowly, but at a steady clip, each wagon disappeared into the great eastern entranceway of Moria. The great wheels of the wagon had a large diameter which made the job of the horses difficult, but not impossible, as each sturdy team pulled a ton of wagon, dwarf, and cargo up the broad flat steps of the entrance.

Once inside, his dwarven eyes quickly adjusted to the cool darkness. There were only five wagons ahead of him, then he could turn the cart over to the night driver, who would change the horses and take over until Gar resumed his route the next morning.

Less than a quarter of an hour passed and his cart was at the abyss. If the Bridge of Khazadum had been wider, he could have driven the wagon across.

Back in his grandfather's day (as his grandfather never wearied of telling him) a team of dwarves were on hand to offload each wagon, quick as a wink, and pass the goods along hand to hand across the bridge. A steady stream of goods was thus moved by hand as fast as could be. Occasionally, a hand would slip, and the goods would fall, never to be recovered. The dwarves who dropped the goods would find the cost docked from their pay.

This was the lot of the least skilled dwarves, and every young dwarf also had to take a turn each day during the apprenticeship.

Old Nar thought that system best, and safest.

Gar preferred the new system. There were still work crews on either side of the abyss, but now, goods were borne across far more quickly, with little loss.

He pulled his wagon up to the edge of the abyss. Like clockwork, the dwarves across the way had finished offloading the last cart and had swung the platform across for his. It clicked into place. He backed his cart onto the platform, unhitched his team with a pull of the strong pin that held the harness to the cart, and the ferry crew swung the platform and cart across so that it locked into place on the other side. The cart was pulled off and unloaded. The previous cart was pushed onto the platform and sent back across.

Suddenly, horns rang out!

Orcs were approaching in force up the Dimrill Dale!

Gar grabbed his axe and ran to the great entrance way.

Behind him, other dwarves were running to their posts, crossing by both bridge and the dizzying ride across the swinging ferry.

Then, when all were in place, a call sounded and with a great rattling sound, the chains that held the ferry platform from high above were released and it went crashing into the bottomless chasm.

Moria would be safe. Gar gripped his axe and waited to greet any attackers who made it past the arrows of the Dwarves...

If you can bring in more than one cart at a time, and have more than one platform, this becomes even easier. Go to the shipyard of any port city (during any period of history!) and you'll see this sort of thing going on. Harder work in ancient or even medieval or early modern times, but it's nothing new to us, and I'm sure the Dwarves could cope.

I realize that the Dwarves might well have made use of the surrounding Men to handle cartage (not to mention care of the horses or oxen or mules), preferring to contract out such work, but the principles would remain the same.


P.S. For any who are interested, check out my recording of THE BRIDGE OF KHAZADUM in RealAudio at http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.htmlGilthalion's Grand Adventures</a>

<hr> <center><font size=1>Not much at all to see at http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Website</a></center></p>

enep
02-14-2001, 05:57 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 315</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Whoa!

Scary math! I suppose Tolkien was a lore-master, not a mathematician though. When he figured out how impossible it was to feed everyone he probably made up his mind that Moria was to be deserted. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

Although the same could be said for Erebor. How are you suppose to support a similar sized (alliteration <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b"> ) dwarven community by wheeling wagon-loads of food through a front gate that has a river running out from it? I think. Or I have my ME Geo wrong.

For me it is easier to imagine massive dwarven greenhouses on the top of Caradhras where they grow millions of mushrooms. The Mountain Mushroom Farms. <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=":D">

- enep</p>

Orald
02-14-2001, 09:39 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 569</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

They ate the rocks and dirt that they quarried. They were made from stone and as the saying goes, you are what you eat.

But seriously, I think it would be very possible for them to survive.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

Mister Underhill
02-14-2001, 11:34 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 437</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

Whoa! Blast from the past! And you thought I was a math major, BW. If Gil's calculations are correct, then the East Gate could easily accomodate dwarvish traffic requirements (I think his estimation of a population of one hundred thousand may be overly generous, and if I'm not mistaken his calculations assume that the entire dwarvish food supply is provided by trade through the East Gate).

In the battle between the Orcs led by Azog and the Dwarves before the East Gate, the Orc force is overcome and virtually destroyed. One version in HoME XII puts the number of Orcish dead at ten thousand (see Durin's Folk). If we can deem this number to be at least roughly accurate, we can make several deductions from it:

1) The Orcs had more than a simple garrison force at Moria.

2) Even if we assume that ten thousand dead Orcs represents only a third of Azog's force, then that means the combined host of the Dwarves was less than that number (thirty thousand), since the account of the Battle of Azanulbizar in Appendix A says that at the start of the fight, the Orcs outnumbered the Dwarves.

</p>

Master Caractacus
02-15-2001, 06:22 AM
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Re: Whoa!

Gilthalion here again. (How I hate this new EZBOARD!)

I should think that there were many more Dwarves in Moria during its zenith.

If the East Gate and chambers and passages were the first built, then the numbers would be smaller. As the population grew, the logistical demands increased. Obviously, when Hollin was active, there was trade through the West Gate as well.

There would always be a tremendous flow of traffic in and out of Moria, or any other non-self-sufficient Dwarven community. I tend to think that the logistical demands would be child's play to them. As the math demonstrates, even one ferry with one cart could handle the needs of 100,000 dwarves. Add as many ferries, collapsable bridges, etc. as you need over the abyss, and the job is even easier.

Recall Thorin &amp; Co. collapsing a wall when joining the Battle of the Five Armies. Semipermanent bridges, strong until disposed of, would be the ticket, though the ferry could be used in a pinch, say, after a battle and the collapse of the bridges.

I can see a stone arch bridge, laid without morter, strong as strong, but able to fall all at once down the abyss.

In fact, if your enemy makes it through the gate and is actually crossing over your collapsible bridge, that might not be a bad time to move the lever which releases the weight that pulls the chains that pull the pins that retain the anchor bolts that hold the keystone in the center of the arch of the bridge. This would be very bad for a vangard of pillaging orcs...

Or for the Dwarf who does this by mistake. A little more serious than pulling the fire alarm.

&quot;Dwarven bridges falling down...&quot;

And of course, in the fall of Moria, such events may have occurred. Whatever construction was employed, it was cast into the ravine in the last despair....hence, leaving only the narrow bridge of old.

<hr> <center><font size=1>Not much at all to see at http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Website</a></center></p>

Mithadan
02-15-2001, 07:58 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 612</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

Hmmm. Could we at last be reaching toward a consensus that at a minimum the Bridge was inadequate and that heavy traffic occurred in the East? This is a step in the right direction.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Mister Underhill
02-15-2001, 09:47 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 442</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

During its zenith, Khazad-dm was also trading heavily to the West. When Sauron conquered Eregion, the doors of Moria were shut and its people began to &quot;dwindle&quot;, presumably due in large part to starvation. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> The power of Moria endured throughout the Dark Years and the dominion of Sauron, for though Eregion was destroyed and the gates of Moria were shut, the halls of Khazad-dm were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without. Thus its wealth remained long unravished, though its people began to dwindle.<hr></blockquote>You may be right, Gil, but somehow I've always pictured ME as being fairly sparsely populated. In most battles where figures are given, the combatants seem to number in the thousands. For instance, Thoden says that he could have mustered ten thousand if he had decided to leave his strongholds all unguarded; as it was, he only brought six thousand. When Turgon brings his host from Gondolin to the Nirnaeth, they number only ten thousand. Dain apparently only brings about five hundred dwarves to the Battle of Five Armies.

We've either grossly underestimated dwarvish storage capacity and/or their ability to produce their own food, or overestimated their food requirements and/or their population if the constant flow of trade you theorize could be cut off for years and still leave ANY dwarves alive inside the mines by the time they woke up the cranky Balrog. The Hobbit mentions that the Dwarves of Dain's Iron Hills army could have withstood a siege for weeks with only the food that they had packed with them on their backs.

One has to question Azog's tactics. Why not hole up inside the mountain and wait for the Dwarvish host to get tired and go away? Perhaps because the Orcs, unlike the pragmatic and industrious Dwarves, hadn't stockpiled food and cultivated some sources of their own.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 2/15/01 11:08:21 am

Gilthalion
02-15-2001, 10:49 AM
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Posts: 34</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

I think Moria at max was a truly great population. That's why I tossed out the 100,000 figure, since that was larger than any figure I knew of from the literature.

Surely, after the plagues and wars, populations would have fallen.

But, with great effort and sacrifice, I think I have demonstrated that tens of thousands of Dwarves could have long (decades) held out with only the East Gate for provisioning. The above mentioned figures can be greatly reduced if rationing is imposed, or greater loads employed. Or both.

While not a definitive determination, the logistics are not beyond the Dwarves capacity, even if there were no collapsible bridges or ferries across the chasm.

Much better to have a lot of Hollin Elves at hand to grow food for you on the other side of the mountains. But, a dwarf must make do.

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

Mister Underhill
02-15-2001, 11:35 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 446</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But, with great effort and sacrifice, I think I have demonstrated that tens of thousands of Dwarves could have long (decades) held out with only the East Gate for provisioning.<hr></blockquote>I thought at first you were talking about your own great effort and sacrifice in coming up with those calculations! <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

I'll just point out, too, that Sauron's forces invaded Eriador in 1695 and laid waste to Eregion in 1697, but then Sauron was driven out of Eriador in 1701. That means the West Gate only had to be closed for as little as four years and a maximum of six years. After that, the dwarves could have resumed whatever trade they could muster and/or farmed crops of their own in Eriador.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 2/15/01 12:36:00 pm

HerenIstarion
02-15-2001, 12:08 PM
I'll just point out, too, that Sauron's forces invaded Eriador in 1695 and laid waste to Eregion in 1697, but then Sauron was driven out of Eriador in 1701. That means the West Gate only had to be closed for as little as four years and a maximum of six years. After that, the dwarves could have resumed whatever trade they could muster and/or farmed crops of their own in Eriador.

*thumbs up

Mithadan
02-15-2001, 01:26 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 618</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

Now we're going backwards, see quotes and argument from October 24-26, 2000 regarding whether Dwarves grew their own crops/tended animals willingly (they did not). I also came across a post by Sir Underhill conceding that the Dwarves traded to the East, at least after Eregion was laid waste. In my profession, this is known as either a &quot;prior inconsistent statement&quot; or an &quot;admission&quot;. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

Also, how did the Orcs (and Gollum) get out of Moria on the East side of the mountains to pursue the company after the Bridge was destroyed, considering the lack of Gilthalion's proposed extension bridge.

This thread began with the simple observation that the single-file bridge that Gandalf destroyed was incompatible with the concept of a significant underground kingdom. Advocates have dredged up both logic-based and text-based arguments regarding the existence of additional entrances to Moria on the East side. To these I add one more. The dwarves were smart engineers and builders. They would not put themselves in a position where they would be trapped inside by a simple landslide blocking a single exit. Could they dig themselves out? Yes, in time. But they would not do that. Even Erebor had various entrances besides the main gate and the secret exit.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Mister Underhill
02-15-2001, 02:14 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dm
Posts: 448</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> from October 24-26, 2000 regarding whether Dwarves grew their own crops/tended animals willingly <hr></blockquote>Not willingly, but what about in times of need? Also in the course of those arguments Saulotus pointed out that the Men of the Alliance to the east &quot;were diminished and scattered, and those that lingered on in their old regions were impoverished, and lived mostly in caves or in the borders of the Forest.&quot; This doesn't sound like the basis for a trading partner that would be sending large volumes of foodstuffs to the East Gate. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I also came across a post by Sir Underhill conceding that the Dwarves traded to the East, at least after Eregion was laid waste. In my profession, this is known as either a &quot;prior inconsistent statement&quot; or an &quot;admission&quot;. <hr></blockquote>Trying to catch me with your lawyer tricks, eh? &quot;You can't handle the truth!&quot; <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> If we could have the court reporter read back from the record, you'd see that I conceded that the Dwarves may have traded to the east, but I didn't say the traded exclusively to the east, nor that this was their sole source of food. Plus, now that I have a few more resources to draw from, I can make more informed arguments. And anyway, as Walt Whitman said, &quot;Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes).&quot; <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Advocates have dredged up both logic-based and text-based arguments regarding the existence of additional entrances to Moria on the East side. <hr></blockquote>I haven't seen any text-based support of additional entrances/exits. Indeed, the bulk of the textual evidence seems to support a single gate theory.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> at: 2/15/01 3:17:01 pm

Gilthalion
02-16-2001, 07:08 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 35</TD><TD><img src=http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Whoa!

I think that 100,000 dwarves, with great light shafts through the mountains, etc. would have some work to do digging out of a landslide.

Phhhhht! <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":p">

Like Dwarves would allow that kind of stonework and construction!

But in the event that some great tumult of the Valar destroyed their entrance, I guess it might take 'em a day or two to deal with the problem.

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

HerenIstarion
10-07-2002, 01:01 AM
putting this up just because

Rumil
10-14-2002, 02:01 PM
What a long thread! I like the ideas about removable or 'transporter' bridges. I'd always imagined (perhaps due to early exposure to Disney...we hates it my preciousssss!)that the Dwarves (Hi Ho!) would have used some sort of railway with mine trucks (you know, the big metal ones with small wheels like in Indiana Jones) and perhaps some cunning water driven machinery to raise them up levels. Could we yet see a fouth age development of Khazad Dum as a theme park ride?

HerenIstarion
06-19-2003, 12:09 PM
I've been rereading LoTR recently and the following stroke me as something I haven't noticed and haven't pondered over before:

Book II, Chapter 5

This is the Second Hall of Old Moria; and the Gates are near: away beyond the eastern and, on the left, not more than a quarter of a mile. Across the Bridge, up a broad stair, along a wide road, through the First Hall, and out!

Gandalf peeping out of the passage to the rest of the Ring's company

I'll risk playing a fool, for this thread is nearly three years old, but only now it dawned upon me that there were no need for any carriages (wheeled carts or else) to be hauled across the bridge. They would easily be collected in the First Hall, which is stated below in the same chapter as having huge [broken] doors and than the goods were to be brought across as need be and divided into as many portions as dwarves would wish them to be and than brought across the bridge in no hurry