Tolkien on the Kindle

[Mister Underhill]

Guess what I got for Christmas?

Tolkien on an e-reader feels sketchy somehow. It doesn't seem to square with the illusion that, for instance, the LotR is the Red Book of Westmarch. With Tolkien more than other writers you feel like you should have a physical book -- a tome, a codex if you will -- in your hands.

On the other hand, e-editions save trees. Tolkien could hardly object to that. Not to mention that it would be pretty sweet to have at least the core texts (no HoME yet it looks like :() in a handy little gadget that I can cart around with me and whip out whenever the opportunity presented itself.

Does anyone have any Kindle editions of Tolkien (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=tolkien&x=0&y=0)? Any comments on them, or comments in general about reading Tolkien electronically?

[Nogrod]

As a new owner of a "smartphone" (htc) I'm interested in the batteries - the Achilles' heels of all electronic gadgets... How many hours (minutes) can you read it without reloading? My oldtime cellphone got on fairly nice for four-five days but my new one needs recharging every other day.

I mean one doesn't have to reload a book. :)

On the environmental note... what other environmental problems the expanded use of electricity - or making of these gadgets - creates? I'm not sure how fond the prof. would be. :confused:

[Mister Underhill]

On the environmental note... what other environmental problems expanded use of electricity - or making of these gadgets - creates? I'm not sure how fond the prof. would be.
Shh! Save trees! :p

Battery-wise, I've been fooling with this thing since Christmas morning, including lots of wi-fi, which I think is where you can really burn up the batteries, and I'm still at over 50%. Supposedly you can get 10 or 15 days moderate use out of this thing before having to recharge, so it's not too bad.

[Galadriel55]

Personally, I prefer reading physical books. I don't know why, it's just... more real for me, I guess. Especially for Tokien (not that I ever tried reading Tolkien online ;)). As for saving trees, most of my books were either one of my family member's, or my friend's. You could call them second-hand, if you wish :).

[Nogrod]

Battery-wise, I've been fooling with this thing since Christmas morning, including lots of wi-fi, which I think is where you can really burn up the batteries, and I'm still at over 50%. Supposedly you can get 10 or 15 days moderate use out of this thing before having to recharge, so it's not too bad.How can they do that on an e-reader (which means hours of use and a big lighted screen) but not on a ten (or five, anyway) times smaller 3G-phone?

I smell a conspiracy-theory here... :confused:

[Mister Underhill]

Actually the e-ink display is not like the screen on a regular smart-phone or an iPad or what have you. In fact you need to have some light on the screen to read it, just like a paper page. Just from a pure gadget perspective it's a fascinating device. However it works, it obviously uses less battery power.

Galadriel55, I prefer a physical book too, especially when it comes to Tolkien. But I have to say this thing is making me a believer. It's a great mobile alternative to lugging heavy books around when you're out of the house.

[Bêthberry]

Esty and I were discussing the pros and cons of kindles last fall. We wondered how large the screen is--it would seem to involve a fair bit of constant scrolling for those who read a page quickly. Does it?

[Mister Underhill]

Well there's two different versions. I got the smaller one, with a 6" diagonal screen. They also have a 9.7" screen, though of course it costs more and you start to lose some of the convenience of small size. Just holding it side-by-side with a typical paperback, I'd guess the 6" screen is roughly three-quarters the length of the paperback and about the same width.

For reading books, the screen size isn't a big issue, actually, since you don't scroll -- you press a button to "turn the page". There's a font button you can press to adjust the size that you're comfortable with reading, and then the text just reflows to fill the screen, so you can strike a balance between readability and however many times per minute you're flipping the page. I imagine this thing would be a big plus for those with fading eyesight who could use a larger font. The font size I find most comfortable has, I would guess, around 120 words on a page. Turning the page is very natural, just a button-click with your thumb, and doesn't feel like scrolling at all.

You can also read PDFs, but it's not quite as friendly. I have some screenplays on PDF, for instance, and the bigger screen would be nice. I either have to deal with a font-size that's maybe a step or two smaller than would really be preferable, or turn the display to landscape for a comfortable font size, in which case there is some scrolling involved.

You can do other stuff like blog reading and very basic web-browsing, but really it's a dedicated reading device and should be thought of as such.

Here are a few of the pluses so far:
Library in your Kindle. There's sooo much public domain stuff around that you could read for years and never spend a dime. Twain, Shakespeare, Kipling, Dickens, Austen, Sherlock Holmes, etc have already found their way into my device.
Searchable text!
Instantly sample prospective reads. This is especially good this time of year when everyone's putting out their top-ten lists.
On board dictionary. Put the cursor on a word and get a definition.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I use an iPad rather than a Kindle, but I have all four available Tolkien books on it. At home, I will certainly sit down with the physical books, but when we were in Florida for most of October, I was glad I could have all the books with me, and more, without needing to haul them in my luggage. The iPad will draw more power than devices like the Kindle because of the different display type (which can be read in the dark), but unless I have the contrast cranked up to the brightest it gets (which isn't necessary), I can go a solid ten hours or more of constant use before I need to recharge. It would go longer if I turned off a number of wifi features. Not as good as the e-paper low power draw, but not bad for something that can do nigh onto everything my laptop does.

I think that while I still enjoy the tactile experience of a physical book, I also enjoy some of the conveniences of an ebook. The ability to adjust the font size and contrast is a big benefit to someone as nearsighted as I am. And not needing a reading lamp is a plus for me. But everyone will gravitate to what they enjoy most, of course.

[Inziladun]

You can always look to me for Luddite tendencies, but I don't think I'll be getting an Kindle, or any sort of e-reader.
For one thing, I don't travel much, and when I do, it's only for a few days at most. It isn't difficult to stick my "destructible" Tolkien paperbacks in my luggage, and they don't take up much room. The expensive hardbacks stay on the bookshelf nearly all the time. ;)
It looks to me as if the e-reader thing is the wave of the future, however. I've successfully resisted Facebook, Twitter, ipads, and smartphones, though, so I'm confident I'll withstand this also. :cool:

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Kindles, as a whole seem to be wondrous devices, and I think that I would take great use out of one. Personally, I do love my books. And if a few trees die for my reading pleasure, too bad, they will plant more. Don't take me wrong, I love trees, but books are an important cornerstone to society. Physical books require trees to die. . . . Anyway, back to my point, I think that a Kindle would be very handy for travel. I can take as many as ten books on a trip. In fact, when Lauri and I went to Britain this spring I packed probably seven books (and lugged them on and off trains and walked through cities with them). Though this may have built my arm strength, I hardly think it was good for my back. :p If I had a Kindle I would have a lot less luggage when I travel and I would be able to take so many more books with me. When I was travelling in October the man sitting next to me on one of my flights showed me his Kindle and he had so many books on it. It was fascinating.

I think that Kindles and other e-books are a great idea, and though I do not believe that physical books should be replaced by digital copies, I do think that digital libraries are both practical and useful for frequent travellers.

[Mister Underhill]

Ah, Ibrin, now we're getting somewhere! How about the actual quality of the e-editions? I've seen some pretty sloppy conversions of just regular books, like someone ran it through an automated program and human eyes never bothered to take a look at what was spat out.

My concern is that Tolkien, with all the diacriticals, maps, runes, drawings, and unusual formatting for poetry, tales of years, genealogies, and so forth could be a big fat mess unless HarperCollins put some effort into the conversion.

Inzila, I don't consider myself a Luddite, though I'm definitely a technological late-adopter and even then I will only get a gadget if I think I really need it. I can't justify a smart-phone, for instance, even though I want one. :rolleyes: I probably wouldn't have even splurged on a Kindle myself, but I'll take one as a gift.

TGEW, I'm like you -- I seem to always pack a small library for trips. This will be a very cool alternative to that. Plus I'm the type who can find a few minutes to spend reading just about anywhere -- reception areas, check-out lines, whatever.

I agree about physical books. A Kindle can't really furnish a room, and it will be a sad day if, as some predict, brick-and-mortar bookstores go the way of, well, music stores.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I don't (yet) have an electronic reading device, but I think the aspect that would most appeal to me for research would be the possibility of searching for specific words. That would have made my work on the Middle-earth music book much easier!

[Mister Underhill]

Searchable text would definitely be a boon for us Tolkien nuts, Esty.

It looks like I will have to be the trailblazer here and report back. The interesting thing is that I'm already in the midst of my first re-read of LotR in years. I just hit "The Breaking of the Fellowship" last night. And coincidentally I'm planning a trip out of town on the eighth, so having LotR electronically available will work out nicely.

I've downloaded the available samples for LotR, UT, Sil, and TH. The early pages of UT are probably the most diacritical heavy of the lot, and they look pretty squared away in the samples, so fingers crossed they've done a good job on the conversions.

I'll pick up LotR in the next day or two and report how it turns out.

[davem]

This review of the Kindle ed. is not very positive: This review is about the Kindle version of LoTR, and doesn't have much to say about the quality of the book - though the fact that this is probably the sixth edition I've bought probably tells you what I think about that.
The disappointment here is the huge number of misprints in this edition. It's especially galling when you read the forward about how much care was taken to produce a definitive text for the anniversary edition.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/RVDWAQVDPSZOU/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B002RI9176&nodeID=&tag=&linkCode=#wasThisHelpful

I suppose anyone who is interested could download the Kindle program to their PC http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_158848967_6?ie=UTF8&docId=1000423913&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=0CWB0VARB7A9Q4W7PJPR&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=223640147&pf_rd_i=468294 & then try the sample chapters.

I've seen e versions of the texts (TH, LotR, Sil, CoH ) before (a friend of Kate's who's blind had access to (legal) scanning software & I had a chance to access them.) The e-texts are fine for searching the text, but I certainly wouldn't want to read the story in that format.

[LadyBrooke]

I got a Kindle for Christmas too. My thoughts:

Positives
1.) So far I only have one Tolkien books on my Kindle (LotR) because I'm still waiting for my parents to pay me back some money they borrowed. And here's the biggest reason why I'm glad I have LotR on my Kindle; I live in the middle of nowhere and ride the school bus. My driveway is a quarter mile long and because of the classes I'm taking this semester I have six novels to read this semester at least three of which have to carted around each day including LotR. Then I have my college econ book and my European history textbook. There is no way I could carry that much every day and still be able to fit three to a seat on the bus and not break my back.

2.) There are a lot of free books available. I'm a poor high school student and no matter how much I wish I could afford to buy every book I want, I can't. I love a lot of classics and they're free. Plus you can catch deals on new books when Amazon runs promotions.

3.)Surprisingly there is a map in LotR.

4.) Also surprisingly you can turn on text to speech in it. While I hate the voice and it does pronounce some of the words Tolkien made up wrong, it is nice to be able to do something else and hear it in the background. Plus its cheaper then buying the actual cds of it being read.

Negatives
1.) The prices. I hate paying the same price for the Kindle version of LotR that I do the printed.

2.) The books I really wish were on the Kindle (H.O.M.E) aren't. Out of all the books, these are the ones that I could see myself using the highlighting and search features the most in because I hate going through the entirety of say Wars of the Jewels to find one small sentence about a feature of Elven life. Plus the publishers could (and hopefully would) be able to sell these books for less then the $19 dollars some of them go for now.

[davem]

I'm very close to buying one - I love the idea of so many out of copyright books being available free of charge - even some which as far as I know are out of print & which I've wanted to read for a long while (like John Leland's Itinerary - free on the Open Library site http://openlibrary.org/ ). Plus, you can download the free Calibre http://calibre-ebook.com/ program, which will let you organise & most importantly convert any ebook file type (including pdf's) into the .mobi type that the Kindle reads.

Also, you can get this dead cool 'Tolkienesque' cover for it from Amazon

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bhQeJp8OL.jpg http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0046HCQX2/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=18HZXT3TC9FBN3ZD1T2K&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=467128533&pf_rd_i=468294

However, a couple of negatives - first, according to the Kindle agreement on the Amazon site you don't actually 'own' the Kindle books you buy - you just purchase a licence to read them on the device. Which means they can be deleted whenever Amazon decide, that you can't sell them on or give them away (as you can with a real book), & finally reading the one star reviews it seems that some people are having major problems with the screen packing up, the thing re-starting or freezing & having to be replaced - one guy on his fourth replacement. Looking into it, the problem seems to be to do with the cheaper Amazon own brand case (the one without the built in light). Oh, & it seems that the Kindle software allows Amazon to read the whole contents of your Kindle every time you connect to the network - so watch what you put on there :p

There - all that with only one slight Tolkien reference to avoid being completely off topic!

I may take the leap soon - & I may put some Tolkien on there to try the experience, but I still can't help feel that out of all the books out there Tolkien's may be least 'right' for the format...

[LadyBrooke]

I may take the leap soon - & I may put some Tolkien on there to try the experience, but I still can't help feel that out of all the books out there Tolkien's may be least 'right' for the format...

I don't think the Kindle versions will ever be able to fully replace the paper versions of Tolkien's books - it comes nowhere near my Hobbit book for example with the illustrations. I mainly like it because it's light weight and I already have so many textbooks to carry and I don't have to worry about tripping because I can't see over the pile of books which was a problem last year. ;)

I would suggest trying to see it and play around with it in person before buying it if you're not sure.

[Mister Underhill]

I've been meaning to follow up in this thread with some pics for comparison, but I've been lazy since I got back from my little jaunt out of town. If I can scare up the camera -- it's around here somewheres -- I'll put some up tomorrow, but since the thread is active, I'll post a few quick comments in the meantime.

I did pick up LotR. It's steep at $19 US, but on the other hand this edition seems much improved from the one referred to in some of the older customer reviews, like the one that davem linked. Regretfully I have spotted one typo, an iconic line too: 'I am Uglúk. command.' [sic]Overall, though, the e-version seems pretty faithful. I'm in III.4: "Treebeard", so I've been through Elvish passages, verse and song, the inscription on the Ring, the drawing of the West-gate of Moria. Flipping to the indices, everything seems in order. As LadyBrooke has mentioned, there is indeed a map, and even the genealogies are five-by-five, so long as you don't mind squinting a bit at the tiny font. I'll post a more complete evaluation when I've gone all the way through, but so far it seems pretty ship-shape.

I must admit, I'm enjoying this gadget even more than I thought I would. Remember when you got your first mp3 player and realized you could carry around an entire music collection in one little gadget? Like that. The e-ink display is not far off from reading a printed page -- much easier on the eyes and just more book-like than a backlit computer screen. As an inveterate browser, I am loving the ability to hear about an interesting book and then be leafing through the first chapter or two literally within seconds.

The privacy concerns that davem notes seem to be, unfortunately, just a fact of modern life. Cameras peep at us from every corner of our environment, and computers quietly catalog our habits and proclivities and distribute them to the appropriate (or inappropriate, as the case may be) advertising lists. Realistically it doesn't seem likely that Amazon is going to recall my LotR anytime soon. Also realistically, if you are the type of person who is really worried about Amazon having control over what you've bought from them, it's easy enough to figure out how to "jailbreak" your files and make copies. Ahem! -- or so I've heard.

Calibre is a great program for managing your e-library and converting formats around -- even if you don't have an e-reader. I will note, however, that conversions -- especially, in my short experience, from PDF to Kindle-friendly MOBI -- can be clunky.

After researching, I bit the bullet and went with the Amazon cover. Unfortunately the device is not truly mobile unless you have some sort of cover to protect the screen. For me, the Amazon cover is perfect -- clean, simple, light. It holds the Kindle securely, yet it's easy to pop the gadget in or out. I've been using mine daily since Christmas and haven't seen any sign of the problems some people mention about rebooting and whatnot. I didn't go with the one with the built-in light, though. It's just a cover.

On the negative side, there is a temptation towards reading ADD. With all these books at your fingertips, a guy like me can hardly resist taking a sip of Seneca, a little jolt of Shakespeare, etc. I feel a bit like a kid in a candy shop and it's hard to stay focused on one thing.

Also, here's a weird thing, it's kind of odd sometimes that you don't have a sense of how long a book is in this electronic format. Kindle deals in "locations", which could translate to different numbers of "pages" depending on how large or small you set the font. I guess I'll get more of a feel for this over time, but right now it's strange. War and Peace feels much the same as Call of the Wild -- you read 'em both one screen of text at a time. It's disorienting not having that heft as part of the sensory experience of reading.

Okay, so that post turned out longer than I thought it would. I'll try to post some pics tomorrow for your edification.

[davem]

Realistically it doesn't seem likely that Amazon is going to recall my LotR anytime soon. Also realistically, if you are the type of person who is really worried about Amazon having control over what you've bought from them, it's easy enough to figure out how to "jailbreak" your files and make copies. Ahem! -- or so I've heard.



Well, you'd think....

howsumever...

On Friday, it was “1984” and another Orwell book, “Animal Farm,” that were dropped down the memory hole — by Amazon.com.

In a move that angered customers and generated waves of online pique, Amazon remotely deleted some digital editions of the books from the Kindle devices of readers who had bought them.Retailers of physical goods cannot, of course, force their way into a customer’s home to take back a purchase, no matter how bootlegged it turns out to be. Yet Amazon appears to maintain a unique tether to the digital content it sells for the Kindle.

“It illustrates how few rights you have when you buy an e-book from Amazon,” said Bruce Schneier, chief security technology officer for British Telecom and an expert on computer security and commerce. “As a Kindle owner, I’m frustrated. I can’t lend people books and I can’t sell books that I’ve already read, and now it turns out that I can’t even count on still having my books tomorrow.”

Justin Gawronski, a 17-year-old from the Detroit area, was reading “1984” on his Kindle for a summer assignment and lost all his notes and annotations when the file vanished. “They didn’t just take a book back, they stole my work,” he said. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html

Which wouldn't affect me too much, as I can't think that even with a Kindle I'd buy new books - most of my reading choices are out of copyright anyway.

Of course, there are so many bootleg e-copies of Tolkien's books out there that people could convert via Calibre to the .mobi format that even if Amazon (or Harper Collins) were to withdraw the 'official' copies altogether they'd hardly disappear from Kindles - if only one knew someone with such versions ... (ahem...)

[Morthoron]

You see, this is the whole reason why I don't deal with Kindle or the plethora of e-book variants on the market. If I download a song or album from Amazon, it is mine, and I can dispense with it as I wish (just as if I purchased a music CD). I do not care for the thought of some Big Brother (a perfect allusion to the Orwellian nature of this thread) ready to pounce on my reading material.

Currently, if anyone wanted to take one of my books from my home without permission, they'd have to get past the owner -- holding a Browning BPS 12 gauge pump shotgun.

[LadyBrooke]

I guess I'm just so used to the fact that in this electronic age anything can vanish that it doesn't bother me that much. After using the school computers and having entire essays vanish, I'm not going to worry about Amazon removing my copy of LotR. Plus there are the free samples so I can figure out if I want to read The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun without actually buying it. On the other hand, I don't see myself taking my books off the top of my desktop any time soon.

[davem]

A few things interest me about the e-Tolkien's - both LotR & TH have appeared in different 'editions'. LotR has (it could be argued) three 'incarnations' - the first edition text was available between 1954/55 & (I think) about 1966, when Tolkien made a number of changes to the text as a result of the Ace Books controversy in order to allow him to renew/establish copyright for the work in the US. Then, in 2005, we got the '50th Anniversary edition', edited with a new index, by Hammond & Scull under the supervision of Christopher Tolkien. This contained 300-400 changes/amendments - mostly minor, but still.....all done after the author's death. (This came up in another thread http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=643942&postcount=98

Now, I have all three versions in print books, but the only 'official' e-book version available is the 50th - & that, appearing after Tolkien's death, is the only one of the three that appeared without Tolkien's stamp of approval. The other thing about e-books is the ability of the publisher/copyright holder to further amend/'update' the texts - an e-text is not a fixed thing in the way a print book is - you connect your Kindle to Amazon & it could simply update your current text with an amended one. Argument for: typos could be fixed. Argument against: any changes the copyright holder decides on would be forced on you - after all, you don't 'own' the text, only the licence to read it on your device.

Now, my favourite version is the revised, Second Edition - in the main because that's the one I read first & the one I know best - therefore the changes (however 'minor' they may be claimed to be) in the 50th grate on me. But I can never read that edition on the Kindle (unless I break the law & get hold of one of the older bootleg Second Editions, convert it, & stick it on there myself ..... but of course, that could cause all kinds of problems of a legal nature. And, of course, as indicated by the Orwell books issue, one could see a situation where, if copyright law is changed in the future then books which are currently out of copyright could (if copyright is extended) suddenly become copyright again & vanish off your device. I read somewhere that the Disney corporation is among those working to extend copyright, as Walt died in 1966 & his work would enter the public domain in 2036. I still don;t know whether the changes made to LotR (added to any possible future changes we may see) have extended/renewed the copyright on LotR.

[Mister Underhill]

Everyone has to find their own level of (dis)comfort with the idea of e-readers and the ephemeral nature of digital content. If you think of a device as a replacement for your physical books, then some of these issues become more pressing. If, as I do, you view the device merely as a convenient adjunct to reading, it's pretty nifty. For instance, one additional thing I've found I can do is take out books (admittedly a small selection so far) from the library without actually having to go to the library. I like going to the library, but I'm also open to anything that will save me a trip out into LA traffic. ;)

Anywho, here's -- finally -- the side-by-side look that I promised. This is an old mass-market edition of TT alongside the Kindle. The Kindle is set to the third smallest font size. You can also fiddle with the font (there's one called "Condensed" which crams considerably more print on a line without changing the actual font size), as well as the words-per-line (in this pic it's set to "Default" but there's also "Fewer" and "Fewest" if you want to create wider margins) and line spacing (mine is set to the max of three settings). I figure since page count isn't an issue, why not go with settings geared towards comfort, but if you prefer more words on the Kindle page, by turning the settings down you can actually get about a fourth again more words on the screen than on a paperback page and it's still readable.

http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/unde/KindleComparison.jpg

[davem]

Well, after umming & ahhing for a few weeks I finally bought a Kindle (& the case I linked to earlier) So far I haven't read anything on it (I'm part way through a 'real' book, which I want to finish before going 'e'). I've downloaded a few books ready for when I get going (Burton's 'Anatomy of Melancholy', Tresselll's 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists' & Chesterton's 'The Flying Inn' - which probably reveals much about me...... And they were all free:) )

Anyway - I also downloaded the free sample of LotR from Amazon (Intro, Prologue, Shire map & first two chapters) to try it out, & I noticed something - I couldn't read it. It was nice & clear, well presented - perfectly up to the standard I'd expected. But I still couldn't read it.

The problem was, its not simply about the text, its about the experience. I've read other e-texts on computers & phones, but I've never (even though I've used an e-text of LotR to search & find quotes) tried reading it for pleasure off a screen. What I found was that I missed the weight, & the experience of turning the pages (specifically I missed the weight & the feel of the paper of the A&U Second Edition 3vol H/B set which is an essential part of my experience of Middle-earth). Kindle is brilliant for presenting the text of a book, but not the 'experience' of reading a book. I'll use the Kindle a lot (I suspect) - lots of free stuff, very convenient for holidays, etc, etc. But I doubt I'll ever be able to read any Tolkien on it.

[Mister Underhill]

I'm not particularly picky about a specific edition -- for many, many years my Hobbit and LotR were a mismatched set of battered second-hand paperbacks. But I get what you're saying. The overall diminished physical experience of reading is an effect of the e-reader that I didn't fully anticipate.

As I mentioned upthread, it is strange to miss the heft of a physical book in your hand. Also, I have a habit that I guess I've never really noticed -- when I start to get tired while reading, I have a tendency to flip ahead to look for a good stopping place, like the next section break or the end of the chapter. It's much less natural to do that on the Kindle. Also, I like the smell of books. Particularly brand new ones and nice old musty ones. Ray Bradbury has a line in Something Wicked This Way Comes about the ancient mummy spice smell of libraries or something to that effect.

I'll always prefer a physical book over an electronic one, but I do love the Kindle as a supplement to my normal reading habits.

[Laurelin the Younger]

As I mentioned upthread, it is strange to miss the heft of a physical book in your hand. Also, I have a habit that I guess I've never really noticed -- when I start to get tired while reading, I have a tendency to flip ahead to look for a good stopping place, like the next section break or the end of the chapter. It's much less natural to do that on the Kindle. Also, I like the smell of books. Particularly brand new ones and nice old musty ones. Ray Bradbury has a line in Something Wicked This Way Comes about the ancient mummy spice smell of libraries or something to that effect.

I'll always prefer a physical book over an electronic one, but I do love the Kindle as a supplement to my normal reading habits.

I think this is what makes me hesitant to get a Kindle. I really love my books, and I do hate how heavy they are when I travel. They are the most bulky and heavy thing I have to deal with when I move. But I can't get over how much I love them. I guess though, a Kindle would be great for a plane trip, etc. I never thought about it as a supplement rather than a replacement. Now I'm reconsidering it...

[davem]

We live in a utilitarian age. Books are seen as purely a medium for the text, & as the text is the only thing that has value it can therefore be presented in whatever form is cheapest & most convenient (an e-reader is the cheapest form from the point of view of the publisher, as it costs effectively nothing to transmit a file). This is what happened with recorded music - going to the store to buy an LP, bringing it home, switching on the record player, taking the disc out of the sleeve(s), putting it on the turntable, moving the arm & placing the needle in the groove & then sitting down to actually listen to the songs, in the intended order - that was all unnecessary nuisance, because all that really mattered was hearing the music.....except, for a great many of us, that ritual was part of the experience. Downloading individual songs, & having thousands of tracks available in your pocket to shuffle through has trivialised the way we experience music by making it too 'easy'. (not to mention the fact that the mp3 format is such terrible quality). Again, that's why I'm uncomfortable with having LotR as an e-book - it actually feels like trivialising the whole experience of reading it. Don't know if this makes sense, but I feel that if its inconvenient to read it - if I can't have it to hand at an instant's notice, if I have to wait till I get back home & set aside the time to read it properly, well, that's what it 'deserves'. It matters to me & therefore I owe it to myself, the text, & to the author to treat it like that.

That said, there are many books out there that I'd like to try out first & which may not be available in my local library, which may be out of print - or too expensive to buy even when they are out of copyright because of the type of editions they're available in. The real problem would only arise if we got to the point when e-books became the norm & real books went the way of the LP, only available in specialist shops at exorbitant prices. Till then, I'm happy to have a Kindle to hand for the trivial stuff & the stuff I can't get elsewhere.

[LadyBrooke]

I think part of people's reactions to the Kindle might be a generational thing. I'm seventeen so to me the idea of reading something that isn't a physical object isn't odd.

I think another reason that I'm glad that I have one is I don't have a local library. The nearest one is in the next town over and would cost $30 a year to join. If school's not in session I only have the books I won to read unless I can convince my parents to drive me 45 minutes away to the bookstore three towns over. And that bookstore's really only a hole in the wall popular books only store. :(

Bringing this back to Tolkien, has anybody downloaded any of the books besides LotR? I'm curious if they have more mistakes then LotR since they're less popular than it and therefore mistakes won't be as reported.

If anybody's curious here is current rankings on the Paid Kindle:
LotR#353
TH#404
Silm#2,824
FotR#3,353
TTT#6,562
RotK#6,921
CoH#14,750
UT#14,807
Legend of Sigurd and Gudran (how do we abbreviate that?)#43,458
Letter from Father Christmas(and this?) #44,603

The difference in rankings between FotR and TTT is curious. Are new Tolkien readers downloading FotR to see if the like it and then deciding they don't?

Also the book I think suffers the most by being put on the Kindle is Letters from Father Christmas which I downloaded the sample of because I was curious how they would adapt it. It just looks wrong.

[Galadriel55]

I think part of people's reactions to the Kindle might be a generational thing. I'm seventeen so to me the idea of reading something that isn't a physical object isn't odd.

I'm younger than you, but I still think it's odd to read a book that isn't a physical book.

[LadyBrooke]

I'm younger than you, but I still think it's odd to read a book that isn't a physical book.

It's definitely a bit odd. I didn't mean to sound like it wasn't but -and this is more a vibe I'm getting on other websites - some people think that because it's different, it's automatically bad.

I'm never going to completely give up my physical books for my Kindle. I love the smell of books and anybody who knows me can tell that I frequently buy editions just based off the fact that the it has better illustrations then another edition like my copy of TH which is something you can't get on the Kindle. My desktop is currently housing my entire collection of Tolkien books so I can reference them while I'm writing my paper for European History. At the same time it's nice to be able to bookmark multiple sections in a book and make notes without having to physically write in my book or have a dozen bookmarks sticking out all over.

Some books just don't adapt well either. I mentioned above that the sample from Letters from Father Christmas just doesn't look right.

[Dilettante]

No one has yet mentioned that JRRT himself would likely be horrified by the idea of an e-reader. He didn't even like internal combustion engines, and barely read any "modern" literature, like anything written after 1066. ;)

That being said, I too got a Kindle for Christmas. (The smaller 6" one) I was skeptical at first. I LOVE books. I love the smell, feeling the weight of one as I hold or carry it, the rustle of the pages. I get emotionally attached to my books, and have relationships with them.

However I LOVE my Kindle. I have a bad habit of reading several books at once, so being able to put numerous volumes on a small grey device rather than lug around a big bag of books has been a relief. Also, I can have audio books on it as well. So one can keep them and the reading books all in one place. And, the electronic ink really does look like the page of a book, so there is no glare. The battery life is also amazing. I use mine every day, haven't plugged it in for about a week, and it still has about 70% power.

Now, I have not put any Tolkien on my Kindle. Namely, because I already have all three LOTR in one beautiful red leather-bound volume. (Which has drawn some odd looks from coworkers when reading it in the break room.) I wanted to get Tales from the Perilous Realm on my Kindle, but it is not available in Kindle. (Also, if any of the illustrations are color, that will be a moot point with a black and white screen). I own on paper LOTR, The Hobbit, the Book of Lost Tales (1st or second edition, I can't remembe)r, Unfinished Tales (2nd edition) and The Tale of the Children of Hurin. I probably will in the future put something by Tolkien that I do not already own on my Kindle (I'm just going to dreadfully miss the Elvish and Runic title pages) provided there are no color illustrations.

Are the Elvish scripts and Runes included in the e-reader versions?

[davem]

Ok - admission - I recently bought LotR for my Kindle - can't see me buying anything else, but I couldn't help myself - I just felt it ought to be on there - plus, as a bit of a collector, & having over a dozen editions of LotR, from my original Allen & Unwin 3 vol slipcased paperback set from the mid 70's, through a first ed hardback set from 1966, the Alan Lee deluxe, 3 different 50th anniversary editions & a load of different p/b sets, I wanted to have the latest edition.

So, its nice to have it. That said, there are typos (Barad Dur becoming Barad Duen at one point :mad: - and as its a locked file you can't just overtype it. The maps are TERRIBLE - miniscule & completely unreadable (there is a 'zoom' function - which seems to magnify the map 1.1x & is therefore pointless as they're still unreadable). The Cirth & Tengwar are reproduced very well - which makes the typos especially annoying. A further annoyance if you're reading on your PC is that you can't rotate the maps so they appear side on. I'm not sure about the hyperlinks to the footnotes/apppendices - handy, but look 'wrong' in a novel.

I can't see me reading the book on the Kindle for the reasons given above, but its there as another edition.

(Oh, & on the Kindle only side of the subject, for those who don't know about it, download Project Gutenberg's 'Magic Catalogue' - appears as a 'book' on your kindle but is actually a collection of links to P.G.'s whole catalogue & one click loads them directly onto your Kindle - like the Kindle Store - so you don't have the hassle of DL-ing them to your computer & then transferring them over)

[davem]

Well, poping back to this thread

I actually gave up on the Kindle LotR & as I was within a week of purchase I got it wiped by Amazon & a full refund. The typos proved too much in the end.

Actually glad I did, because Harper Collins, the publishers have now surpassed themselves - even for a company owned by Rupert Murdoch:

HarperCollins sets 26-checkout cap on its library e-books http://www.teleread.com/ebooks/harpercollins-sets-26-checkout-cap-on-its-library-e-books/
The publisher also issued a short statement: "HarperCollins is committed to the library channel. We believe this change balances the value libraries get from our titles with the need to protect our authors and ensure a presence in public libraries and the communities they serve for years to come."

What presence? The presence that budget-crunched libraries can’t afford to purchase again once they’re loaned out 26 times? Great move, HC!

Of course, the idea is that printed books wear out after a certain number of lendings (30-35, says this librarian). And since the publishing industry never tires of thinking up ways to make e-books act more like print, this sort of thing probably should have been expected sooner or later. Needless to say, librarians and their partisans are upset, and a Twitter protest is going on under the hashtag #hcod.

It’s unclear whether, like agency pricing, this practice is going to spread to the other publishers. I wonder if any of them will realize just how bad this is making HarperCollins look. I mean, come on, libraries are having enough budget trouble already, and it’s not like you’re going to make a huge amount of money off of them in any case. And they expose people to your books who might decide they like them enough to buy them in another form. Do you really want to go this way, HarperCollins? Seriously?

So there we are, at a time when libraries in the UK are being shut down in their hundreds due to government spending cuts, Tolkien's publisher decides to cause a little more mischief, in a mean way. I no longer buy new physical editions of Tolkien books on principle, & I'll now make sure I avoid HC's ebooks - even if that means not getting e-copies at all.

[Inziladun]

I no longer buy new physical editions of Tolkien books on principle, & I'll now make sure I avoid HC's ebooks - even if that means not getting e-copies at all.

If you shun buying the actual books as well as the e-versions, what options are you left with? Used copies from second-hand shops? That's actually where my "working" copies come from.

[davem]

If you shun buying the actual books as well as the e-versions, what options are you left with? Used copies from second-hand shops? That's actually where my "working" copies come from.

The older (Allen & Unwin) editions are much higher quality than the cheap junk put out by HC. I've got some A&U editions from the '60's & 70's which will outlast the current stuff HC are churning out now - & they can be bought for the same price via Abe Books.

[Mister Underhill]

Physical books wear out after 30-35 lendings? Sheesh, what are people doing to their library books?

On the Kindle vs traditional books front, a new software update has added absolute page number functionality to the device. So now the "location" you're at can be mapped to the corresponding page number in the dead-tree edition. For me it definitely eases the difference in medium to be able to know what page I'm on.

[LadyBrooke]

Physical books wear out after 30-35 lendings? Sheesh, what are people doing to their library books?

Couple months too late, but this caught my eye - 30-35 is the amount that can be expected in my experience. Now, my school is a relatively poor one, so we got by with the librarians making new covers out of construction paper and such, in some cases, especially for paperback books. Hardbacks normally lasted longer then that. Now those numbers are best case scenarios, in several cases this year, books only lasted for a little bit, before somebody would manage to tear the cover off, drop it in animal waste (yes, this happened), drop it in the toilet, the book was returned with bite marks, ect. Yes, all those happened...luckily, the kid who dropped his book in animal waste, had the common sense to not bring it into school, and just brought the money for the book instead....

Now, to return to the Tolkien on the Kindle, several new Tolkien books have come out on their recently including BoLT I & II. As I recently graduated high school, which can be a lucrative business if you have a party with relatives, I now have them, as well as Tales from the Perilous Realm. Next up, Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun to buy...Reviews of BoLT and Tales formatting on Kindle, as soon as I have the chance to finish reading them...

[Galadriel55]

Couple months too late, but this caught my eye - 30-35 is the amount that can be expected in my experience. Now, my school is a relatively poor one, so we got by with the librarians making new covers out of construction paper and such, in some cases, especially for paperback books. Hardbacks normally lasted longer then that. Now those numbers are best case scenarios, in several cases this year, books only lasted for a little bit, before somebody would manage to tear the cover off, drop it in animal waste (yes, this happened), drop it in the toilet, the book was returned with bite marks, ect. Yes, all those happened...luckily, the kid who dropped his book in animal waste, had the common sense to not bring it into school, and just brought the money for the book instead....

That is, um, interesting... I have books that used to be my grandmothers, and they are still intact.... Why such a disrespect for books? Judging from your post many kids don't care about books, but I know many who would make a scandal because there's a scratch on their iPod.


I still hold my firm stance against reading books that are not really books. That is odd; well, I'm an odd sort of person. :) I generally dislike technology. I don't have (and don't want) any iPods, Macs, Blackberries, iPhones, or whatever else is popular now. All I have is the cheapest cellphone I could find, and a computer that I could call my own because my parents forced me to keep it.

Am I an old-fashioned kid? Probably. That's the only reason I could come up with for my animosity towards electronic books.

[LadyBrooke]

That is, um, interesting... I have books that used to be my grandmothers, and they are still intact.... Why such a disrespect for books? Judging from your post many kids don't care about books, but I know many who would make a scandal because there's a scratch on their iPod.

Well, in defense of the one kid, who dropped it in animal waste - he actually did normally take very good care of the books he checked out. Unfortunately, we had a period of heavy rain, his driveway sloped down hill, and as he was walking down it from the bus one day, he went on a roll - he had the customary gravel scratch marks to prove it. :( Both the librarian and I felt sorry for him....In general though, the kids didn't care - though the books did get more respect then me. The fact that I was shorter then them, didn't help earn me any respect....

I still hold my firm stance against reading books that are not really books. That is odd; well, I'm an odd sort of person. :) I generally dislike technology. I don't have (and don't want) any iPods, Macs, Blackberries, iPhones, or whatever else is popular now. All I have is the cheapest cellphone I could find, and a computer that I could call my own because my parents forced me to keep it.

I could care less about cellphones (I hate talking to people on the phone), but other then that - I want the latest technology. I have a Kindle, an iPod, and in the past few months, I've spent some of the money I got for graduating, and earlier this year my birthday, to improve my technology - I've upgraded to a wireless mouse and keyboard, got a usb hub so I have more room for my devices, bought a wireless printer/scanner, a Wacom art tablet, a new camera, and an external hard drive. Next, I have to get a laptop for college.....

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

That is, um, interesting... I have books that used to be my grandmothers, and they are still intact.... Why such a disrespect for books?

For myself, I have no disrespect for books, but a lot for the publishing industry. It isn't what it used to be, nor are most books. I myself own books that are quite old — the oldest is about 150 years old, and it's in better shape than a lot that are much newer. The materials and processes used to make books aren't what they once were; glues, paper, inks, everything has changed, and changed again. The high acid papers that were popular for many years have been replaced, by some publishers, but the inks that are more environmentally friendly also fade and rub away very quickly. The binding are cheap, as are the glues that hold them, and spines crack and pages fall out, sometimes before I've finished the first read of the book (and I'm not that hard on them).

The sloppiness of the publishing industry has slopped into ebooks. The only reason that so many ebooks are rife with "typos" are because the publishers didn't bother with having a human being proof them and clean up the code after conversion to the ebook's format. I know, because I've now made a few ebooks of my own, and am familiar with the programs and processes and what happens when one format is converted to another. Yes, it's easy to take a PDF file, send it through a conversion program, and voila! have an ebook, but the conversion process makes a horrible mess of things far too often. A person with a proper editing program needs to go through it and correct these things (many of which could be cleaned up simply by starting with an RTF file rather than a PDF). It's sad when I, who am asking nothing for my little twiddles of ebooks, take greater care with them than the publishers who are asking real money for them. It's not that hard to make a good clean ebook, but they obviously don't want to cut into profits by hiring someone to do a one-time proof and clean-up. Grr.

And I find it funny that here I am, one of the oldest people hereabouts, and yet one who has happily embraced technology, as it helps make up for many of my physical shortcomings, which grow greater with each passing year (and don't get me started on my recent six month bout with statin drug damage to my body, from which I am still slowly recovering. We're talking serious non-stop pain and near-crippling weakness for six freaking months!)

[Galadriel55]

And I find it funny that here I am, one of the oldest people hereabouts, and yet one who has happily embraced technology...

*giggles*

What's even funnier is that I, being one of the youngest (or the youngest?) member, barely know of the latest inventions and innovations!

I totally agree about what you said about the materials. However, people can still respect books a bit more. I have an old book that I found lying in this place where people drop off books that they don't need anymore. I read and liked very much. It was very old and tattered when I picked it up, and it survived many a story with me. I can't count how many pages fell out! But it is still intact (with the hale of tape) and legible. I can see the majority of my classmates simply throwing that old fossil into the recycling bin.

Note, that I don't mean anybody specifically when I say "people", and especially not any of us Tolkien fans (who could be such and not respect books?!). This is just the general trend of attitude that I noticed amongst people of aproximately my age, give or take 5 or so years.

the books did get more respect then me. The fact that I was shorter then them, didn't help earn me any respect....

I'm sorry about that. As much as I respect books, I respect people more. Especially peole like you! :)

[LadyBrooke]

For myself, I have no disrespect for books, but a lot for the publishing industry. It isn't what it used to be, nor are most books. I myself own books that are quite old — the oldest is about 150 years old, and it's in better shape than a lot that are much newer. The materials and processes used to make books aren't what they once were; glues, paper, inks, everything has changed, and changed again. The high acid papers that were popular for many years have been replaced, by some publishers, but the inks that are more environmentally friendly also fade and rub away very quickly. The binding are cheap, as are the glues that hold them, and spines crack and pages fall out, sometimes before I've finished the first read of the book (and I'm not that hard on them).
Exactly...I have some old books too, and even paperbacks from long ago hold up much better. I have a set of Little House paperbacks from the 40s, and they are in far better conditions then some books I bought last year, and only read once...

I know, because I've now made a few ebooks of my own, and am familiar with the programs and processes and what happens when one format is converted to another. Yes, it's easy to take a PDF file, send it through a conversion program, and voila! have an ebook, but the conversion process makes a horrible mess of things far too often. A person with a proper editing program needs to go through it and correct these things (many of which could be cleaned up simply by starting with an RTF file rather than a PDF). It's sad when I, who am asking nothing for my little twiddles of ebooks, take greater care with them than the publishers who are asking real money for them. It's not that hard to make a good clean ebook, but they obviously don't want to cut into profits by hiring someone to do a one-time proof and clean-up. Grr.
If you don't mind me asking, which type of ebooks have you made? I'm curious about the process, and have considered trying to make one of some of my out of copyright books...

And I find it funny that here I am, one of the oldest people hereabouts, and yet one who has happily embraced technology, as it helps make up for many of my physical shortcomings, which grow greater with each passing year (and don't get me started on my recent six month bout with statin drug damage to my body, from which I am still slowly recovering. We're talking serious non-stop pain and near-crippling weakness for six freaking months!)
Oh my! I hope you get much better. :( While I'm not bad off as you, I completely understand the technology to make up for physical shortcomings - I myself, due to my insurance companies refusal to allow me to have the epipen style Lantus shots, have bruises every so often, on my stomach or upper thigh that go into my muscle tissue or fat, that going out and actually doing things difficult. My sincerest hopes that you're feeling better now.

I'm sorry about that. As much as I respect books, I respect people more. Especially peole like you!
Thank you! :D I am one of those people that look much younger then their real age - I'm 18, and often hear "but you look 13", so I get little respect from the actual 13 year olds...especially when I was tossing them out of the library for acting like idiots, and breaking the rules....

[Pitchwife]

Physical books wear out after 30-35 lendings? Sheesh, what are people doing to their library books?
"Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew" [/minimal exaggeration]. From my own experience: break the backs, rip out illustrations, cover the pages with text markers in four different colours, spill everything from tea and coffee to orange juice to wine to soy sauce or ketchup over them... and occasionally admit rather sheepishly that the dog has massacred them (those are the ones I can sympathize with;)). And I'm talking about students at a university here, not little kids. The boy Brooke has told us about seems to have treated his borrowed books with more respect than many of our academic elite:rolleyes:.

[Mister Underhill]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Sometimes it's easy to assume a general reverence for books when the opposite is more the general case. I guess it can depend on the sort of books one favors, too. My local library has several volumes of Kipling old enough to bear the Hindu swastika. Every once in a while when I'm hankering for some ol' Rud, I'll take one out. They're real beauties. But then they probably mostly sit there on the shelf gathering dust in between the odd occasions when I check them out. One upside of e-readers, at least, is that they lower my chances of having to witness some vulgarian bend the spine back on a book so they can read it one-handed.

Anyway, since I'm here, I might as well update on my experience. I have grown to love my Kindle. I love being able to carry a bookshelf around in a cargo pocket, but who wouldn't? That's only the most obvious benefit. There are lots of interesting digital freebies out there, and I've gotten interested in the whole Creative Commons movement, as well as the indie-publishing movement. There's a whole new -- and expanding -- strata of stuff out there that's sometimes only available digitally. Project Gutenberg and Munsey's are inexhaustible wells of yumminess.

Sometimes you'll stumble across promotional freebies too, as I did recently with a recent download of the audio version of the, ah, shall we say, off-color Go the F*** to Sleep (http://www.amazon.com/Go-F-Sleep-Adam-Mansbach/dp/1617750255/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1308945606&sr=8-1), read by Sam Jackson, a "children's book for grown-ups" meant to put a smile on the faces of frustrated and overtired parents. Fortunately I'm past that stage myself, but I'll be picking up a hard copy for some friends whose new boss is due soon.

Perhaps most unexpected of all -- as Ibrin mentioned above, it's fairly easy to put your own content into an e-reader-friendly format.

A note about concerns over Amazon's control over the digital content they sell you -- when there was a recent update to LotR, they didn't just push it to my device. They sent me an email and gave me the option to update to the new file or not. So, for now at least, the policy seems to be evolving towards a more respectful stance towards the user. And despite a sloppy start in many cases (LotR not the least), the obvious inevitability here is towards digital editions which are perfect reproductions of print editions.

Having Tolkien handily available anywhere at any time (and searchable!) is a great luxury. Sure, I'd love to always be able to sit down in my favorite comfy chair in my quiet man-cave with a treasured edition and a snifter of brandy near to hand, but in these busy days I can't really afford to fetishize the reading experience. The simple fact is that I'm doing a lot more reading since I got my Kindle.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

If you don't mind me asking, which type of ebooks have you made? I'm curious about the process, and have considered trying to make one of some of my out of copyright books...

I have made both ePub and mobi formats, which are able to read by a huge number of ebook reading devices. The two programs you need to do it are Calibre and Sigil, both of which are freeware. Calibre will do the conversions from things like PDFs and RTF files into many different ebook formats, and will allow you to edit the metadata (title, author, sorting method, cover, etc.). Sigil is an editor that will let you take what Calibre puts out and clean it up. It does take time, and the more familiar you are with HTML code, the easier it will be, but you can wind up with a more polished product than the publishing houses crank out. You can also use Sigil and Calibre to clean up sloppy ebooks that aren't locked with DRM.

And thank you for your kind wishes about my recovery. I certainly can feel for you when it comes to insurance saying no to so many things. I pay through the nose for my Epipen because they want me to use an ordinary hypo, but danged if I'm going to be struggling with that when I'm going into anaphylactic shock!

[Inziladun]

I can't speak about the Kindle. However, my wife bought a Nook yesterday and I've found it most difficult to set up and generally figure out. And here I'd always thought reading was a stress reliever. :rolleyes:
No thanks, I'll stick with physical books that make sense.

[davem]

I gave up on the Kindle altogether & went back to real books. I won't rehearse the old stuff about you can't lend ebooks on, or give them away, they're full of typos, too expensive, etc, but that was part of the reason. Mainly though, I just didn't get on with the thing - it felt like 'pretend' reading, & 'unnatural' (maybe just 'cos having spent most of my half century reading in a certain position (laying down :) ), & being used to the different weights on my chest,different font/text sizes, cover pics, etc I couldn't stand the uniformity the Kindle imposes on every book. Having just gotten into George RR Martin & purchased the US trade paperbacks I can't imagine why anyone would want to read the stories on a plastic screen. That goes double for my old Tolkien editions.

I've handed over my Kindle to Lalwende (the missus) - & she has A Song of Ice & Fire on there, but still tends to pick up the 'real' thing when she wants to read the books. I daresay that ebooks will win out in the end but, honestly, count me out.

[Mithalwen]

I am just about to get a Kindle (I am facing the prospect of moving to a smaller house and am having to part with a heart breaking amount of books as I clear out the ancestral smial with the book collections of three generations) so it really appeals- though I can't see me giving up on proper books entirely but it wills save me buying new paperback Tolkeins every couple of years because I have worn them out. And I can have them with me at all times.

Anyway I have noticed that the first two volumes of HoME are out.

[FlimFlamSam]

Mister Underhill spoke: [Any comments on them, or comments in general about reading Tolkien electronically?]
I can't speak for Kindle products, but I can for E-Tolkien-text which is what this post mainly concerns itself with.

I prefer a simple .doc format, that can be read at home or on a laptop.
It also has the advantage of being correcteble, especially if you pick up something like Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion or History of the Hobbit as reference along with say Peoples of Middle-earth for the cut Appendices.

Depending on what edition was used to make the original Kindle document, it may have used an older version of text that has mistakes and missing text, not to mention any new problems in the e-book creation process. That doesn't sound like an advantage.

davem spoke: [However, a couple of negatives...]
I've heard about the only "renting it, subject to recall, buyer beware" clause. That's not so good--when considering books.

I've also heard about the replacement texts on books as well. As for Amazon invasion of privacy to see what other books you might like to buy, that's already an established practice of theirs just looking around their site so not unexpected.

Mister Underhill spoke: [The e-ink display is not far off from reading a printed page -- much easier on the eyes and just more book-like than a backlit computer screen.]
You can also solve that with the .doc format. Some people prefer html.
Simply format the .doc for landscape and two columns. It looks just like you're reading a physical book and tricks the mind a bit. You can also add whatever images you like and even insert background colors or images if you want something more than plain white as page color.

Mister Underhill spoke: [If, as I do, you view the device merely as a convenient adjunct to reading, it's pretty nifty.]
Then I would say it does the job then despite whatever complaints are considered.

As for me, I'll pass on Kindle. Just not interested in it.

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE]Why such a disrespect for books? Judging from your post many kids don't care about books, but I know many who would make a scandal because there's a scratch on their iPod.

I know what you mean. My mom found a 19th century edition of Walter Scott's poetry (hard-bound, with REAL gold on the cover!) at a flea market that cost less than what you would usually pay for a milkshake. Not that I'm complaining - it's just that I find it almost funny how so many people do not value books.

I still hold my firm stance against reading books that are not really books. That is odd; well, I'm an odd sort of person. :) I generally dislike technology. I don't have (and don't want) any iPods, Macs, Blackberries, iPhones, or whatever else is popular now. All I have is the cheapest cellphone I could find, and a computer that I could call my own because my parents forced me to keep it.

Mostly agreed. I understand that for people with a low budget, e-readers can be a life-saver, but for me, any book that is worth reading is worth buying, especially since we probably won't have too many real books some thirty years down the line because of deforestation (and also technology). I can live in a small apartment in a lousy city – but I can't live in a big house that doesn't have any books in it.

And yeah, for the longest time I kept a dinosaur of a cell phone. It was only when it wheezed its last wheeze that I bought a new one :p

Am I an old-fashioned kid? Probably. That's the only reason I could come up with for my animosity towards electronic books.

No, I don't think so. You just like having the real thing in your hand - sort of the way I prefer letters to emails :D

[Galadriel55]

I know what you mean. My mom found a 19th century edition of Walter Scott's poetry (hard-bound, with REAL gold on the cover!) at a flea market that cost less than what you would usually pay for a milkshake.

That is INSANE!

Mostly agreed. I understand that for people with a low budget, e-readers can be a life-saver, but for me, any book that is worth reading is worth buying, especially since we probably won't have too many real books some thirty years down the line because of deforestation (and also technology). I can live in a small apartment in a lousy city – but I can't live in a big house that doesn't have any books in it.

Or, I can live close to the library. :) I have the books that I really really lie and reread every coupe years, but some books - even some Tolkien - I borrowed from the library.


I have a friens who has an ebook, and I tried using it, and I knew that it just wasn't my thing. So, no ebooks for me for the near future.

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE=Galadriel55;660721]That is INSANE!

Tell me about it. I wish I had that sort of luck. Only my mum seems to get it.

Or, I can live close to the library. I have the books that I really really lie and reread every coupe years, but some books - even some Tolkien - I borrowed from the library.

I love libraries, but sadly where I live there's no such thing :p You either buy a book or leave it. The only library I've been in is my school library, which is small-ish (two large rooms), but nice all the same :) In fact, we're lucky our school even HAS a library, because most schools here don't.

I have a friens who has an ebook, and I tried using it, and I knew that it just wasn't my thing. So, no ebooks for me for the near future.

I know what you mean. One of my dad's family friends came over one day and tried to persuade me to buy an e-book, but I just felt horrible even thinking about it :p

[Mithalwen]

2.) The books I really wish were on the Kindle (H.O.M.E) aren't. Out of all the books, these are the ones that I could see myself using the highlighting and search features the most in because I hate going through the entirety of say Wars of the Jewels to find one small sentence about a feature of Elven life. Plus the publishers could (and hopefully would) be able to sell these books for less then the $19 dollars some of them go for now.

They will all be issued by the end of October - I ordered my kindle today and looked... might not get them all instantly as I have them all in paperback but I probably will in time.... ideally I think I will end up with a set of Tolkien hardbacks for home and Kindle versions for having on hand at all times!!! I do love and respect books but my some books are as essential as toothbrushes and used so constantly that they last about as long!!! My third paperback Lotr is beginning to disintegrate...

[Inziladun]

I do love and respect books but my some books are as essential as toothbrushes and used so constantly that they last about as long!!! My third paperback Lotr is beginning to disintegrate...

Oh come on. Dog-eared books are endearing. That's what Scotch tape is for. ;)

My wife is absolutely enthralled with her Nook, but I still don't think an e-reader is for me.

[Mithalwen]

Oh come on. Dog-eared books are endearing. That's what Scotch tape is for. ;)

My wife is absolutely enthralled with her Nook, but I still don't think an e-reader is for me.

Hm well I don't have shelf space for the books I already own so I am hoping it will be a great boon.. let alone when I start travelling again...

[Galadriel55]

Oh come on. Dog-eared books are endearing. That's what Scotch tape is for. ;)

A certain book of mine required so much tape that once fixed it became like 20% thicker than it was before it was torn. :eek: Maybe, in that case, a kindle will be easier...

[Galadriel]

Oh come on. Dog-eared books are endearing. That's what Scotch tape is for.

No. Scotch tape is evil. I've had some really bad experiences with it :D

[Mithalwen]

Well it arrived about an hour or so ago and I have read one essay and am now reading Roverandom (for the first time ...).. I do ever so slightly feel as if I have joined a cult though...

[Gwathagor]

I feel like civilization has probably had this conversation several times. Like when we switched over from the oral tradition to the scroll or the clay tablet, and later on to the leather codex. And think of the backlash there must have been against the printing press - mass-produced books for everybody? But books are supposed to be works of art!

There is no wrong or right textual medium. Each one is different and each one involves its own particular advantages and disadvantages. Books are a more geographical, tactile, kinesthetic experience. You learn in a different way than when you read an etext, because you can feel the book and each piece of information gets tied to a specific location. The etext is more abstract, but it's also more fluid. It allows for greater connectivity with other texts and information, via not only your particular device, but through the internet.

It will change the way we read and, even more, the way we think. But books won't ever completely die out because they have substance and texture and smell, which is something the internet will never be able to replicate. People need that physical connection to the world.

[Mithalwen]

Very true .. I suppose it is a bit of a switch for me because I haven't adopted other comparable devices - I don't own an MP3 player or digital camera (other than the ones on my cell phone which I cannot get to work). Obviously I use a computer but I find when I write longhand I use a fountain pen and nice paper. I don't see me giving up on reall books - I have too many nice ones but I will be able to declutter a bit! I think the real joy will be the obscure stuff I now have access to.

I still find my hand automatically going to the top corner at the end of the page!

[Bêthberry]

It will change the way we read and, even more, the way we think. But books won't ever completely die out because they have substance and texture and smell, which is something the internet will never be able to replicate. People need that physical connection to the world.

Well, until the Kindle lets me pencil in comments and underlinings and stick sticky tabs with ideas on pages, I think I'll keep my old style paperbacks. (Not that I do this with hardcovers.)

[Mithalwen]

Well it apparently does if you can forgo the pencil.. but I remember being severly punished for writing on books as a child so even when a tutor recommended doing so I couldn't.... I might lightly pencil a score but not a book on the whole.

[Gwathagor]

Well, until the Kindle lets me pencil in comments and underlinings and stick sticky tabs with ideas on pages, I think I'll keep my old style paperbacks. (Not that I do this with hardcovers.)

Exactly!

[Gwathagor]

Very true .. I suppose it is a bit of a switch for me because I haven't adopted other comparable devices - I don't own an MP3 player or digital camera (other than the ones on my cell phone which I cannot get to work). Obviously I use a computer but I find when I write longhand I use a fountain pen and nice paper. I don't see me giving up on reall books - I have too many nice ones but I will be able to declutter a bit! I think the real joy will be the obscure stuff I now have access to.

I still find my hand automatically going to the top corner at the end of the page!

I expect we will actually start to see MORE people using fountain pens and so on in a reaction to the increasingly digital world. Or if not in reaction to it, then in a mindset of "If I'm going to do this analog thing, I'm going to go all the way and do it RIGHT." I never write with anything but my Namiki Vanishing Point fountain pen these days. It's just a more enjoyable experience.

[davem]

I never write with anything but my Namiki Vanishing Point fountain pen these days. It's just a more enjoyable experience.

But how do you deal with the ink on your computer screen?

[Gwathagor]

Contact paper.

[Mithalwen]

I never write with anything but my Namiki Vanishing Point fountain pen these days. It's just a more enjoyable experience.

It is also because my nice Cross pen makes my scratchy handwriting vaguely legible in a baby shelob has danced across the page kind of way....

[Mister Underhill]

I feel like civilization has probably had this conversation several times. Yes, agreed. Like it or not, this is the way things are heading. The good news is that for most of us, there will be more physical books around for the rest of our lives than we can ever hope to read. On the other hand, if you are a fan of contemporary authors, you may find that soon(ish), electronic editions are the only, or at least by far the most convenient, way to read some of the writers that you love.

I have more to say, but right now I'm eager to get back to Stephen King's latest novella, Mile 81, which, for now at least, is only available electronically.

[Mithalwen]

I heard a feature on the radio yesterday though that was saying how now the print on demand technology has improved and all books exist digitally books you should always be able to get a hard copy. Apparently Blackwell's in Oxford has a machine which will deliver the book of your choice in under five minutes. On the whole I think more things are going to be more available. But since I shall be spending most of tomorrow morning sitting on the beach, quite possibly in the rain (there is a reason for this I am not merely mascochistically English) I shank risk the new toy and take a "realbook"

[davem]

On the other hand, if you are a fan of contemporary authors, you may find that soon(ish), electronic editions are the only, or at least by far the most convenient, way to read some of the writers that you love.



Hmm.... to quote JRRT in OFS - Long ago Chesterton
truly remarked that, as soon as he heard that anything “had come to stay,” he knew that it would be very soon replaced—indeed regarded as pitiably obsolete and shabby.

I heard a feature on the radio yesterday though that was saying how now the print on demand technology has improved and all books exist digitally books you should always be able to get a hard copy.

The downside of print on demand is no more remaindered bookshops - wherein I have found many wonderful books.

As someone who is in the middle of using Sigil & Calibre to format a friend's ebook for publication on Kindle (& hoping it will all work as it should :eek:) I do like the 'democratic' aspect of ebooks - no trying to find a publisher, getting a decent deal for the author, & waiting months for the thing to be available (& then trying to get the thing onto the shelves, etc).

[Mithalwen]

I got my Carpenter biography remaindered but having had to wait 20 years to get a copy of The road goes ever on and ten ot complete my set of HoME knowing things will be always available at the touch of a button is wonderful. My main caveat about e books (apart from the tactile one) is that it is fine for the things you know you want but I am not sure I will make hte happy discoveries of things I didn't know I wanted to read until I saw them. Anyway early days..the first thing I goe was an interesting article on Tolkien that I never would have had the chance to read otherwise...

[Mister Underhill]

I heard a feature on the radio yesterday though that was saying how now the print on demand technology has improved and all books exist digitally books you should always be able to get a hard copy.Yes, print-on-demand was what I had in mind when I added the "by far the most convenient" caveat. It'll be interesting to see how the technology develops there. All too often POD books are characterized by low production values, and are more expensive and less easy to acquire than an ebook.
Long ago Chesterton truly remarked that, as soon as he heard that anything “had come to stay,” he knew that it would be very soon replaced—indeed regarded as pitiably obsolete and shabby .Heh -- you mean like paper books? Brick-and-mortar bookstores? Vinyl, cassettes, CDs? Anyway, I didn't say that ebooks were here to stay, only that they appear to be the next thing. No doubt the written word itself will someday become obsolete after we all upload and transcend biology (http://www.amazon.com/Singularity-Near-Humans-Transcend-Biology/dp/0143037889/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315175354&sr=8-1) (:eek:). In the meantime, mass market paperbacks are already on their way out (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/03/business/media/mass-market-paperbacks-fading-from-shelves.html).

I take no delight at all in watching the paper book become an endangered animal. On the contrary, my house is partially furnished with them, and I've lugged many hundreds of pounds worth around with me wherever I go ever since I moved out of my parents' house to attend college lo these many years ago. I still buy paper books. I still hunger for some of the beautiful rare editions that I can't quite justify financially.

But the writing is on the wall, and I prefer to embrace the upsides of ebooks (democratization of content, more money per sale into the pocket of the author in many cases, convenience, searchable, etc.).

Bêthberry, my dear -- you already can highlight and annotate electronic editions. Although, as with others here, I never scribble in my books and I've never felt compelled to try out the feature on the Kindle.

[Bêthberry]

Bêthberry, my dear -- you already can highlight and annotate electronic editions. Although, as with others here, I never scribble in my books and I've never felt compelled to try out the feature on the Kindle.

I have very good company for my pecadillos, Mister U, as Coleridge not only marked up Lamb's early folio of Shakespeare with his comments about the Bard but had the unspeakably bad manners to spill jam on it. So apparently the folio has now doubled in value. (not *cough* that any of my scribblings will be that memorable.)

I can certainly see the value of travelling with a Kindle, as one would have a variety of books at one's disposal all for one weight. And they will of course save trees. I'm just not at the stage yet of curling up with a good Kindle. ;)

[Mister Underhill]

I don't judge. I've spilled many a condiment, not to mention various beverages, crumbs, and smears of dessert, amongst the timeless words of literature's greatest lights, so far be it from me.

Still, if you're the scribbling, highlighting type, I think there is the option to connect your marginalia socially. This may end up being the thing that puts the stake through the heart of the paperback. Not every author spawns fora dedicated to his or her work like our dear professor; the ability to connect socially with other aficionados is something that a paper book can't provide.

[Bêthberry]

That's an interesting possibility, the connection with social media. However, my marginalia is meant just for me, something I use if I want to develope my ideas further, for others.

I saw an advert in a magazine today, on the future of magazines in a digital world. the punch line was:

"Instant coffee hasn't eliminated true brew coffee." :D

[Mister Underhill]

I will continue to buy paper books for as long as they continue to print them. I couldn't resist picking up a nice 40th anniversary copy of Dune yesterday. There's one I haven't read since junior high.

And as you know I'm not personally big on the social media, but supposedly facebook.com accounts for one out of every four page views in the U.S. these days. We're collectively quite fascinated with what we're all up to, apparently. Besides connecting with other readers, I also just saw this -- you can ask questions of some authors directly from your Kindle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/-/1000714331/). Now, this rogues gallery of beta authors isn't exactly the Algonquin Round Table, but you can see where this is trending. Readers connecting with other readers and with authors while they're in the act of reading.

I don't know. I have a bit of split personality on these things -- the Tolkien in me longs for simpler times. The Star Trek fan in me is jazzed to have tricorder tech available (still waiting impatiently for a breakthrough on the transporter, though). Part of me is glad just to see that enough people are still interested in reading at all to make e-readers a viable product.

[Alfirin]

One other advantage of the e-book is that it should allow for far more rapid updating and correction of material. Any errors of text that slip by before release can be quickly corrected, and those correction can automatically be sent to anyone who bought the book, rather than having to buy another copy. Or if the author decides the book for some reason needs another chapter or a addional essay in the appendix, it can go to everyone, rather than those who have the money to buy the book a second time (it will also end having to continually buy addional editions of the same book (unless you want to) just becuse it has one more three page foreward added. This, I feel, will be particularly important in the case of reference material and scientific literature. As it stands now, a lot of, scientific material (in particualr I'm thinking of things like identification and field guides) tend to suffer from a triple whammy. They tend (if comprehensive) to be far too large and unwieldy to actually be taken into the field, the very limited market tends to result in them being absurdly expensive, and the continual accumulation of new knowledge means that they tend to go obsolete very. very quickly (often, from a funtional point of view, almost before they can be published).
That being said, these very advantages could in my opinion, create their own sort of problems. The ease with which errors can be corrected may result in less care being taken not to make errors in the first place. The ability to update all of the copies of a book simutaneously may result in the loss of a trail of a books evolution (imagine, for example, if the changes JRRT made to the hobbit automatically erased all previos versions of those sections, so the "corrected" text was the only one we ever saw.) As someone who also has a fondness for the Illustrated book, I also worry that the proliferation of the e-book, which can be transmitted easily, may result in a "lock" between a books text and illustrations that is far tighter than we are used to. Part of the reason we have so many different wonderfult artistic concepts of many books (especially when considered in a world wide aspect) is the variable skills of printing all over the world and the fact that, as it stands now the text of a book and the illustrations of a book are often under seperate copyright. If sending a book to another country becomes simply a matter of running it through a good translator program, I can easily see a situation where it becomes the norm for a book and it's pictures to "become one", and legal deviation to become far, far rarer.

[Bêthberry]

I've thought of something that is tangential to Mister U's and Alfirin's points, but I'll post it anyway.

Books can be shared, physically. Can e-texts/e-books be shared digitally? Once you have a book on your Kindle, is there any way you can pass it on to a friend's Kindle? If there's this extensive social media capability, is there this sharing capability? I wouldn't think so, unless the Kindle itself was shared, as that would cut into profits I would think.

[Mister Underhill]

You know, I wasn't sure myself so I had to look:

Lending Kindle Books (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200549320)

The short answer is -- if the rights holder has enabled it, a Kindle book can be "loaned once for a period of 14 days". Definitely a downside of ebooks, though of course with all the public domain stuff out there it's not an issue. In fact, the opposite -- you can turn someone on to a book without losing your copy.

It'll be interesting to see how things develop. Right now, most publishers are still pricing ebooks on a par with or even more than physical books, but there's a lot of downward pressure on that from various directions, and a lot of controversy in the publishing community about the appropriate price for an ebook. Ultimately I think something like what happened with music is going to happen here -- they're going to have to price books low enough (plus add whatever other sort of value, like social networking) so that it's more convenient to just buy it than to pirate it.

[Mister Underhill]

P.S. -- The Kindle edition of LotR is not lendable.

[Mithalwen]

I'd never loan my hard copy anyway!! My library has started doing E books I see... Somewhat illogically here while paper books are VAT free E-books get clobbered with an extra 20%.

[Mister Underhill]

Heh -- I guess the upside of loaning books Kindle style is that, like faithful hounds, they come back to you, rather than disappearing into your friends' libraries a la Hugo Bracegirdle.

[Bêthberry]

Oh dear. I guess that means once a Kindle owner always a Kindle owner--no chance of taking the old files down to the second hand file shop and selling them.

There goes one avenue for revenue for poor students. ;)

[Mithalwen]

Well I would have been quids in as a student since just about all my primary texts - about 60 volumes a year - would have been free downloads since out of copyright (and about a third or them were in French and were consequently impoorted and expensive despite being cheap editions) and the only volume I parted with voluntarily (again a couple of loans proved "permanent" grrrrr) was "Look back in Anger " which I loathe with a passion and donated ot a luvvy acquaintance who was going to perform it... The rest are still occupying my shelves - though some maybe not for much longer! Ironically I have read a real book this week despite my new toy - yes it has a familiar feel but the print is tiny and as a promotional copy the production values are low. It was a harmless enough light read - I shall pass it to friend going on holiday soon and it will no doubt be left at the hotel for whomsoever. Not all books are things of beauty and a joy for ever and those that are are clumsy and cumbersome to actually read.

I love my slipcase first edition Children of Hurin. It is beautiful but I haven't actually read it all the way through because I feel I have to practially wear white cotton gloves.

[Mithalwen]

Oh on a side note I tried out the experimental web browser trying to decide if it was good enough not to take the flaptop away with me... and it was spectacularly horrible trying to read the Downs (top priority of course) - not he size but he green and orange on black is not good in greyscale.

[Mister Underhill]

Yes, web-browsing is primitive and clunky to say the least. On the other hand, if you have the 3G version and don't have a smart phone, your Kindle can be a poor-man's smart phone in a pinch (say you need directions, or to find an address or a nearby restaurant in a strange place, or you really just can't wait to see if anyone replied to your latest post). Mine has come in handy that way on a few occasions.

[Mithalwen]

I have got the 3g and I hope it will be a bit useful when I get teh hang of it it will be useful...the Downs appeared quite nicely until I tried to get a specifc page and infact the Kindle got a bit fixated and refused to show me anything else for a bit.. but the mid grey on black was too much like hard work for my aging eyes.... but I still love the Kindle and it was great for reading on the train especially.