Celborn, Galdriel and Elrond

[Rosa Underhill]

This so confuses me...

Okay, Elrond has (to my knowledge) three kids. I don't know who mothered his two sons, but Galadriel is said to be Arwen's mother. Now, Galadriel is in Lorien hanging out with Celeborn. Are those two married? Was there some sort of infidelity going on with Elrond and Galadriel? Did Celeborn know? Or are Elrond and Galadriel separated? Someone please tell me!

[Elrian]

Celebrian daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel is Elrond's wife and Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir's mother. Galadriel is their grandmother.

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Birdland]

Yeah, I kinda wondered about Celeborn and Galadriel, myself. Especially since she leaves Middle Earth without him. Trouble in Paradise?

Maybe after so many millennia together, they just needed "some time apart". smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Kuruharan]

Never did understand what Galadriel saw in him anyway.

[Inziladun]

Celeborn apparently just wasn't ready to leave when Galadriel did. Going Over Sea was an irreversible step for Elves. Maybe he had a few things he wanted to do in the mortal lands he was unable to accomplish while Sauron stood.

[Androndo the Thoughtfull]

The Encyclopaedia of Arda has a good family tree of Elrond: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/e/elrond.html

(Celebrian's parents are Celeborn and Galadriel)

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: Androndo the Thoughtfull ]

[Pips]

Well, lets see, when Galadriel sailed for the Grey Havens, Celeborn went to Rivendell, with Elrond's two sons, who were now Lords of Rivendell, so that would mean, Elves still existed in the Mortal world.

[Orald]

You have it a bit jumbled up, but you are on the right track Pips. Galadriel Sailed from the Grey Havens not to them. Celeborn went to Southern Mirkwood, not Rivendell, and Elrohir and Elladon would have become mortal if they would have stayed when Elrond sailed into the West.

[Thingol]

I don't think that Elrohir and Elladon would have necacarily became mortal just because they did not go with Elrond, I think they had to choose for themselves and that they merely delayed their descission.

[Aralaithiel]

OK...let me enlighten you. You all are right!
Celeborn + Galadriel= Celebrian
Celebrian + Elrond= Elrohir, Elladan, & Arwen
Galadriel goes west.
Elrond goes west, with Frodo & Sam.
Celeborn & Thranduil (Legolas' father and King of Mirkwood) combine their realms. Then grow tired and go west.
Elrohir & Elladan stay for awhile in ME, then leave. Arwen stays behind because she's wed to Aragorn, and becomes mortal.
Yeah...I can see why Galadriel would leave. And I do not blame her! Maybe she smoked too much hobbit weed when she met him! LOL!

[Daegwenn]

Just to confuse the he-er-high heavens out of you, I guess i will add my knowledge on this subject.

Arwen marries Aragorn and gives up the immortal life for the fate of man (no surprise there...)

Elrohir and Elladan are given the choice of immortality or the same fate as their sister but they must sail across with his father if they wish to keep the immortality. They toil in M-E and become the Lords of Rivendell for a bit until after a few years they take up with their grandfather, Celeborn, and go into the west-where Galadriel already is.

As for 'Celeborn went to Southern Mirkwood' From what I gather, he and Thranduil renamed the realm of Mirkwood 'Eryn Lasgalen' and split it into two, Thranduil took the northern parts all the way to the mountains that rise in the forests of his realm and Celeborn took the Southern woods below the Narrows and called it East Lorien. But after the passing of Galadriel, he grows weary where he goes off with his grandsons to live in Rivendell for a bit then they all go across the seas. Thranduil remains for quite some time after Celeborn and the twins pass, but eventually, he and the last of his people go, leaving Legolas behind.

Galadriel was not on the last boat to the that went into the west, she was in fact, on one of the first. Legolas and Gimli were on the last boat, and thus ends the story of the Lord of the Rings.

I hope my understanding of the story is at least a bit helpful to any out there that are just as confused as I am.

Sincerely,
Daegwenn

[Thingol]

Where does it say Elrohir and Elladan must sail across the sea with their father to keep their immortality? I always thought that they could make their own choice, maybe I missed something, can you point out a page number?

[Pips]

Originally posted by Aralaithiel:
<STRONG>OK...let me enlighten you. You all are right!
Celeborn + Galadriel= Celebrian
Celebrian + Elrond= Elrohir, Elladan, & Arwen
Galadriel goes west.
Elrond goes west, with Frodo & Sam.
Celeborn & Thranduil (Legolas' father and King of Mirkwood) combine their realms. Then grow tired and go west.
Elrohir & Elladan stay for awhile in ME, then leave. Arwen stays behind because she's wed to Aragorn, and becomes mortal.
Yeah...I can see why Galadriel would leave. And I do not blame her! Maybe she smoked too much hobbit weed when she met him! LOL!</STRONG>

Hey wait a second! I thought it was Frodo and Bilbo tha went, that Sam stayed behind and had a family!

[Rosa Underhill]

Hey wait a second! I thought it was Frodo and Bilbo tha went, that Sam stayed behind and had a family

He did. But after his wife died, he left the Red Book in the care of Eleanor and sailed across the sea to join up with Frodo. It's in the apendices.

[Daegwenn]

You know, we could sit here and argue for hours and hours on what happened to Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir. Trust me, there are a million different stories I have heard...but what I have heard is that Elladan and Elrohir have some human blood coursing through those viens of theirs...I don't know how it works out, but in order for them to keep their immortality, they must be with their father..or across the sea. *shrugs*

I read it in the Tolkien Encyclopedia that was written by Christopher Tolkien. Now, as for WHY that they have to be near their father, only J.R.R. Tolkien knows that answer, and if you talk to him any time soon, please ask him if he could clear it up for us, because its been nagging on my mind too.

Sincerely,
Daegwenn

[Pips]

Yeah, because Elrond's father was mortal. Elrond and his brother were givin a choice and his brother chose to become human and became a king(Where I can't remember) and Elrond chose to be like his mother, Elven and immortal.

[Kuruharan]

Well, Elrond's father Earendil was half human and half elf, who started out mortal but was then put into orbit with a Silmaril and became a star, so his status sort of changed.
Elrond's brother was Elros, who became the first king of Numenor.

[Aralaithiel]

Yep Daegwenn, I agree about the arguing all day bit. That's why in my fan fiction that I am creating, ALL the Elves stay in ME for at least 1000 years, then go across the sea. My character is the granddaughter of Gil-Galad, and Elrond is her father. Since she is illegitimate, Galadriel consulted the Valar. I am to wed Legoals, and unite the Elves into one huge realm. The first installment should be in the fan fiction section of the Barrow Downs soon! smilies/smile.gif

[Kuruharan]

and unite the Elves into one huge realm
Modest, aren't you... ;)

[Man-of-the-Wold]

First some potential errors above, for which I throw in my own two bits, which is what we do here.

The Last Ship into the West is the one that Círdan would captain. When, or if, that has happened is unclear, but it was probably at least a good while after the beginning of the Fourth Age -- probably later than the Legolas/Gimli sailing and thus, after the deaths of Aragorn and Arwen, though likely not too long thereafter.

There were still hundreds if not thousands of tarrying Eldar in Lindon, Rivendell and elsewhere, not to mention the Silvan Elves of Wilderland, who might all have longing and passage to Eldamar, as Nandor-Teleri.

I've imagined, assuming it didn't take too long, that Celeborn (and possibly Thranduîl) would join Círdan in the Last Ship, to sort of nicely conclude the Sindarin presence in Middle-Earth, that was caused by Thingol's encounter with Melian so long before in Nan Elmoth.

As for Elladan and Elrohir, they did, of course, have the option of being Men or Elves like their sister Arwen. That choice, however, was not indefinite, but it depended on when their father departed Middle-Earth. I don't necessarily believe that they absolutely had to leave on the very ship that Elrond took, but possibly. Probably, they would have had to do so within a grown Dúnedain's remainig lifetime at the longest.

Regardless, I have always had the impression, as noted by certain Tolkien commentators, that they end up staying and being mortal Men. One gets an impression that they are drawn toward that side of their ancestry and to Middle-Earth for whatever reasons, and the lack of any indication of their leaving is telling, although Tolkien may have seen it as too much of a footnote to be worth the trouble of belaboring. In any other words, it may not matter, except that if they stayed, then it is reasonable to imagine them marrying and having children, which is cool.

There is also the implication that Arwen gave up her seat on the boat for Frodo as she notes in her farewell to him, and so I've speculated that Bilbo's and Sam's (eventual) passages possibly correspond with ones surrendered by the brethren.

One interesting thing I've read is that Frodo, Bilbo and Sam did not necessarily gain everlasting life by going to Eldamar, but only the ability to live for quite some time and then die eventually at peace, because otherwise having born the ring tormented their hearts & spirits and interrupted their normal life cycle anyway. Witness that neither Gollum nor Bilbo actually dies after losing the ring, even if natural aging resumes.

[Aralaithiel]

What? Moi, modest??!?!!
Yep Kuruharan...I've got BIG plans for the Eldar of ME. I'm gonna rule them all (elves, that is!)!!! Bwahahahaha! smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/wink.gif
Elladan & Elrohir loved to wander with the rangers, so it doesn't surprise me that they wanted to linger. I recall reading though that they did go West. Now to go look up where I thought I read that! smilies/smile.gif

[Lush]

Originally posted by Aralaithiel:
<STRONG>I'm gonna rule them all (elves, that is!)!!! Bwahahahaha! smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/wink.gif</STRONG>

*Wondering if Aralaithiel has a bit of Sauron's blood in her veins* The whole "rule them all" spiel is quite suspicious.

[Thingol]

"Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children- with a renewed Elvish strain, since thier mother was Celebrian dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Luthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Luthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Luthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told; they delay their choice, and remain for a while." The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, (#153)

So Elladan and Elrohir delay their choice and we do not know what happens to them, I like the idea of them going into the west and joining their father. Just my opinion though.

[Daegwenn]

Aralaithiel:
Oh dear. There goes the neighborhood-or to put it accurately- there goes the Middle-earth neighborhood.

^.^ You seem to be very enthused about your story, where is it? May I read it?

I am working on my own right now, it starts when Legolas is just a babe (Imagine a little boy around the age of eight)with his brother ( made-up because I still haven't found any proof that he HAD brothers) called Gloriden, as the main character...It's a work in progress.

Now, as for the last elves in ME and all...yes Thingol, I agree, I like E&E delaying their choice. But I read in the Tolkien encyclopedia that in fact, after a few years the twins do go to their father after they get tired of ME. When I get up enough darn money to buy the encyclopedia, I will quote on it because I know for a fact that I read it there.
~~Daegwenn

[Rosa Underhill]

Whoa... What have I done? smilies/biggrin.gif This has become a very fascinating topic. Admittedly, I never even thought about Elrond's sons but I'm glad to know now. And thanks, everyone, for clearing up that bit about Elrond and Galadriel. Knowing that Tolkien was a devote Christian and disliking the thought of inficelity personally, it really didn't sit right with me that Galadriel might be Arwen's mom when she was already married to Celeborn.

I feel better now! smilies/biggrin.gif

[Lush]

Infedelity, i.e. "cheating" (as in, you come home to discover your wife in bed with the milkman, or whatnot) is indeed problematic, but I can't bring myself to view it in plain terms.
What if, for example, Elrond had met Galadriel on some moonlit stroll through Middle Earth before Galadriel ever married Celeborn, and sired Arwen, or any other Elf-kid? Would you, Rosa, be offended? Of course, we have Celebrian who solves that problem nicely for us, but what if Tolkien had decided to toss her out of the equation? Wouldn't make much of a difference to me, thats for sure. Of course, the story is made richer by her presence, but this is only from a literary point of view. From a "Christian" perspective, I wouldn't give a hoot as to whom Galadriel had loved before she wed Celeborn, as long as she remained, well, Galadriel, fair and wise.
What's truly attractive is the idea that there is a "one true love" for many of Tolkien's characters. Galadriel had Celeborn, Elrond had Celebrian, Sam had Rosie, Arwen had Aragorn, Beren had Luthien, etc. But if one of those characters, Galadriel for instance (as hard as that would be to believe) had a "past" with someone other than her present husband, it wouldn't make the story a lesser one in my eyes.

[Kuruharan]

What if, for example, Elrond had met Galadriel on some moonlit stroll through Middle Earth before Galadriel ever married Celeborn, and sired Arwen...

It would be a very good trick!
Even more so because Galadriel and Celeborn had been married for centuries before Elrond was born.

I think what Rosa U. means is that it would not be in keeping with Tolkien's whole ethos.
It's just not the sort of thing that the good guys and gals in his world do.
Not at least without nasssty consequences.

[Lush]

Originally posted by Kuruharan:
<STRONG>

It would be a very good trick!
Even more so because Galadriel and Celeborn had been married for centuries before Elrond was born.

I think what Rosa U. means is that it would not be in keeping with Tolkien's whole ethos.
It's just not the sort of thing that the good guys and gals in his world do.
Not at least without nasssty consequences.</STRONG>

Indeed, but I was simply stretching reality here... Hmm, I've notcied I just used the word 'reality' regarding Galadriel and Celeborn. Have I earned the title of an official Tolkien-obsessed nutcase yet?
Furthermore (and I believe I posted this question before somewhere) where not Beren and Luthien lovers before they married? Well, Tolkien never actually says anything specific on that regard, but I believe it was certainly suggested that they were.
Yes, my mindset is quite lecherous tonight, but don't blame me! Blame Clive Owen! And if you don't know what I'm talking about, do see 'Gosford Park.'

[Rosa Underhill]

Would you, Rosa, be offended?

Well, it wouldn't offend me, persay, but it would irk me. I used to not mind mention of sexual relations before marriage but lately, well, I've gotten quite tired of reading about it all the time. Anne McCaffrey, Marian Zimmer Bradley, Tamora Pierce, Jane Yolen, etc, etc. (Hm. I only have a few books written by men and those, odly are either too action oriented or Christian to have much, if anything, to do with sex. How odd...)

I've just grown extrememly weary of it. Star crossed lovers are a dime a dozen these days; now it's rare to see two married folks in a novel at all. And they've usually had "experience" beforehand. It really cheapens the love, in my mind. So, since sex-free "excapist" literature is so rare, I find that I get more pleasure reading it than other books.

[Kuruharan]

Furthermore (and I believe I posted this question before somewhere) where not Beren and Luthien lovers before they married? Well, Tolkien never actually says anything specific on that regard, but I believe it was certainly suggested that they were.


There is certainly room for different interpretations there.

After Beren sees Luthien for the first time, goes wandering through the bracken all hot and bothered for a few months, sees her again, and passes out the story goes...

Beyond his hope she returned to him where he sat in darkness, and long ago in the Hidden Kingdom she laid her hand in his. Thereafter often she came to him, and they went in secret through the woods together from spring to summer; and no others of the Children of Iluvatar have had joy so great, though the time was brief.

It really all depends on what interpretation you place on the words. You can take it any way that you like. :)

[Carannillion]

You know something, Rosa? What you said:
I've just grown extrememly weary of it. Star crossed lovers are a dime a dozen these days; now it's rare to see two married folks in a novel at all. And they've usually had "experience" beforehand. It really cheapens the love, in my mind. So, since sex-free "excapist" literature is so rare, I find that I get more pleasure reading it than other books.
Sort of kills what a certain Mr. Jenkyns criticized Tolkien's books for (see the "New Republic Article" thread somewhere here). Mr. Jenkyns indicated that Tolkien's works were flawed or lacking, since they didn't have any sex-related content.

You sort of kicked his feet out from under him there smilies/wink.gif Nice one.

[Aralaithiel]

OK...shameless plug time again! Read my story.
Here's a brief synopsis:
Elrond meets Gil-Galad's daughter before the big battle with Sauron. She is very much a temptress, but not inherently evil. He falls for her, and sires a kid (me) out of wedlock. He hasn't fallen for Celebrian, yet. And, he does not know about me, because Gil-Galad's daughter flees after the battle where he's slain.
I wanted to give Elrond a human type of dilemma, since there's a lot of belief that Elves are the superior race and have been placed upon pedestals, and show how he deals with it.
The intro is up, and hopefully the next 2 installments soon. Enjoy!
And no...no Sauron in me. Just a desire to create a realm of happy Elves! smilies/smile.gif

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Aralaithiel ]

[Lush]

Come to think of it, were Amroth and Nimrodel even married? Legolas referred to them as "lovers." Just giving you some food for thought, I guess, no matter how sugary.

[Aralaithiel]

Hmmm...interesting thought Lush. I have not read anywhere that they were.

[Kuruharan]

Would this be the story where you take over Elf-land? ;)

[Elven-Maiden]

I was wondering about Arwen being 3/4 elf. That means one of her grammas or grandpas was human, right? Not Galadriel or Celeborn, so Elrond's wife's mom or dad. Does anyone know for sure?

[Rosa Underhill]

You sort of kicked his feet out from under him there Nice one.



I didn't read much of that article. Mr. Jenkins(?) was making me too angry. I did read his shpeil on the lack of sex making the novel bad and I wanted to harf. To me, if you have to have sex in a book to make it good, you're reading the wrong thing if you read Tolkien.

[Bruce MacCulloch]

I was wondering about Arwen being 3/4 elf. That means one of her grammas or grandpas was human, right? Not Galadriel or Celeborn, so Elrond's wife's mom or dad. Does anyone know for sure? Actually, Elrond was half-elven. His father was Eärendil the Mariner.

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

[Vilya Elathelas of Rivendell]

hey aralaithiel i read your fanfiction it was GOOD!!!! smilies/biggrin.gif there'd better be more!!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Mr. Jenkins(?) was making me too angry. I did read his shpeil on the lack of sex making the novel bad and I wanted to harf.

His name was Jenkyns, and I seem to recall that his arguments were rubbished by a number of people. I can't see that there was much to get angry about, though: one should always pity ignorance in the well-educated.

[Daegwenn]

Even if there was 'Infidelity' amongst the elves...wouldn't thousands of years of living make them a little more open minded? I always thought that it would--since after all, living that long would make one assume that they had seen a lot of things. I guess they don't have to worry about kicking the bucket when they get old like we do... *shrugs* But hey! Those are just my own meandering ideas...maybe I have been watching too much anime.

~~Daegwenn
smilies/tongue.gif

[Carannillion]

Squatter:
I can't see that there was much to get angry about, though: one should always pity ignorance in the well-educated.
Of course, criticism is almost always deserved and healthy, but notice how I said almost always? I think Mr. Jenkyns' article was simply - as you so nicely put it - ignorant smilies/wink.gif

[Aralaithiel]

You bet there will be more of my tale!
And, even though I deal with Elven infidelity in my story, I do not focus on the sex. In fact, I barely breathe a word of it. I focus on the dilemma of an illegitimate elf child. I have endeavored to keep my story in the vein of Tolkien's writing style, although I do include poker games and drinking fests; but that's as wild as it gets! smilies/biggrin.gif

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Of course, criticism is almost always deserved and healthy

Not when I'm the critic. smilies/wink.gif

I see criticism as being like the little girl of the nursery rhyme: when it's good it's very, very good and when it's bad it's horrid. Poor Professor Tolkien does seem to provoke a lot of bad criticism. Even his lecturing style was panned by some people (there's an oblique and modestly sarcastic reference to this in his Valedictory Address).