Silvan/Sindarin/Avari....

[Lalaith]

....our long-running quest for definition and truth continues. I was last night struck by a Legolas quote in FotR, which coincidently has just been mentioned by a poster seeking information on Eregion. Legolas speaks of the difference between the Noldor of Eregion and "us silvan folk."
Now, as we have discussed before, Thranduil, Legolas' father, was not silvan but a Sindar ruling over - debatably - a silvan/avari nation. So what does this remark of Legolas' mean? Perhaps that he and his father have 'gone native' so to speak, and rejected their Sindarin origins.
I don't know. One could go quietly mad, trying to make sense of it all...

[Aratlithiel]

Since Legolas was born in Mirkwood, I would suppose that would make him Silvan (but of Sindarin descent). Just as the children of someone born in Mexico who had migrated to the U.S. (before having children, of course) would be American (of Mexican descent).

It's the same arguement I was using on another thread RE: Avari vs. Noldor but I don't think I was very convincing. smilies/smile.gif Gotta get Lindil and Legolas in here.

[lindil]

I am afrain that what we will find, even if we do an exhaustive chronlogical [by date of creation within the Legendarium]catalouging of every mention of Silvan/Avari/Sindarin interaction [which alas, I do not have time for] is that JRRT was not consistent, because he continually and subtly changed his mind on these points.

As CJRT said in the Silm foreward, "Complete consistency was not to be acheived or even desired for it would come at heavy and needless cost." well that is a paraphrase fom memory anyway.

Of course if we use the LotR as canon we can fit these many other fragments into something of a whole but unless there are referencesin the HoME6-9 I am unaware of the "what happened to the avari" thred contains most if not all of the relevant references.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

Well, the "lesser elves" were mostly ruled by "higher elves", like Lórien was ruled by a Noldo, all of Beleriand by a Thingol, a Sinda, who was homewer counted to Calaquendi, and so actually as high as the Noldor.

So probably Thranduil and Legolas were both counted to the Sindar. Maybe Legolas just spoke of his people when he said "we silvan folks".. Or maybe Tolkien just hadn't made up his mind when writing this.

Edit: (Graah. Of course I meant Calaquendi.. That Moriquendi just came from.. somewhere :P)

[ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: Afrodal Fenyar ]

[Ultimatejoe]

Thingol was counted among the Eldar who had seen the light of the trees (Calaquendi) because he had seen the trees as one of the first ambassadors of the Elves, and their light was reflected in the face and eyes of his wife Melian.

[Aiwendil]

I see no contradiction, gross or subtle, between Legolas's Sindarin descent and his reference to himself as Silvan. Aratlithiel gave the example of children whose parents had emigrated from one country to another prior to their birth. It works even in more generalized cases. Someone whose family has been in the United States for generations is certainly an "American"; but the person may call himself or herself "Italian" without contradiction.

Further, "Silvan" is not a term like "Avari". That is, it is not a taxonomical group, and it is not defined in relation to the Great March. I don't see any reason why "Silvan" and "Sindarin" should be mutually exclusive.

[Rimbaud]

I tend to lindil's point of view; there are numerous inconsistencies and it is rarely worth the effort to try and reconcile them. Accept the mythology as is...perhaps the inconsistency of the stories is Tolkien's greatest achievement in making the mythology seem more 'real'.

Someone whose family has been in the United States for generations is certainly an "American"; but the person may call himself or herself "Italian" without contradiction.

The funny thing is, I do find that a contradiction, and during my stay here, have found that habit more and more strange. The family members who have emigrated/immigrated have some claim to belong (to my mind, and I expect to be shouted down viciously)to both the host nation and their adopted country of residence, but with the passage of generations, the concept confuses me and strikes me as an affectation.

[ January 31, 2003: Message edited by: Rimbaud ]

[The Saucepan Man]

OK, so its not definitive, but this is from the entry for Silvan Elves in The Illustrated Tolien Encyclopedia:

Those Elves who undertook the Great Journey were the Teleri. Of this kindred were those called the Nandor, "those who turn back", who stopped their westward march at the Anduin River and went no further. Of these Nandor, there were some who settled inGreenwood, and Lothlorien. These were named Silvan Elves, for most of them lived in forests.

So, the name "Silvan" seems to denote their habitat, ie forests, rather than their descent. This is consistent with the dictionary entry for "Silvan" or "Sylvan": "of the woods; having woods; wooded", from the woodland deity, Sylvanus.

So rather than describing a particular race of Elves, doesn't "Sylvan" just mean those who live in the forests of Greenwood and Lothlorien. In which case, Legolas and Thranduil are Silvan Elves, notwithstanding their Sindari descent.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

wow, thats really interesting! so, as Galadriel lives in a forest, does that make her Silvan AND noldor?

[Aiwendil]

The funny thing is, I do find that a contradiction, and during my stay here, have found that habit more and more strange. The family members who have emigrated/immigrated have some claim to belong (to my mind, and I expect to be shouted down viciously)to both the host nation and their adopted country of residence, but with the passage of generations, the concept confuses me and strikes me as an affectation.

But the relevant fact is that, whether there's a contradiction or not, people do say such things. So there's no reason for similar situations not to exist in Middle-earth.

Anyway, if we take your view (which I more or less agree with), then Legolas's statement is completely correct and non-contradictory; he lives in Mirkwood. The contradiction you spoke of would occur if he insisted on calling himself Sindarin, or Doriathrin.

[Legolas]

The way I see it, 'Silvan' is a more general term that was taken on by elves in later days.

The Sindar, they were called, who stopped near the coast and took Thingol as king; the Nandor, who followed Lenwe down the Anduin; a few of the Avari, that did not start the journey at all, and a few may have found their way into the region; any of the Noldor that hadn't returned to Valinor - a good number of all of these faded into the Silvan melting pot.

I'd imagine the Silvan elves started out as mainly Nandorin, as The Silmarillion defines them. As time went on and so many of the elves took the regions immediately eat of the Misty Mountains, the kindreds that were so strictly separated in the First Age were mixed together so much that the new elves being born were not easily distinguished as being more of one kindred and less another.

Of course, not all of them would be all mixed up - especially leaders and those from from the earlier ages and their direct descendents (i.e. Thranduil, Celeborn, Galadriel, and Legolas, though he calls himself Silvan and is so by culture, he's obviously Sindarin by heritage).

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Yes, I would agree with Lindil and Forum-Legolas, and think they largely echo my explanation in that other thread ("Where are the..."). In these types of matters -- where the Wise would not have had written records -- some imprecision and uncertainty makes it all really more enjoyable, even as I must restrain my analytical tendencies to appreciate it. So celebrate the doubt!

But to focus in on Book-Legolas's comments, they is aimed at the utter singularity of the High-Elves, especially in terms of the type of civilization represented by Eregion. Eregion was evidently all but exclusively Noldor (or their other-kindred spouses/decendents originating from Valinor).

Even if one labels Book-Legolas as a true Sindar, he would still see these Caliquendi/gnomes as categorically different from himself.

I would argue that except for (just-one-quarter-Noldorin) Galadriel and her retinue (while in Edholland, Greenwood or the Lothlorien), the only other High-Elves/Noldor who ever settled for a time in Middle-Earth beyond Beleriand-Eriador would be refugees from Eregion that escaped through Moria.

There were no High-Elves to be sure in Thranduil's realm, where the Sindar and Laiquendi went not only to get away from the Noldor (though there may not have been serious animus involved) like the original Falathrim of Edholland, but where they were also evidently on a sort of back-to-basics trip. And the Books leave no doubt that these Beleriandic Eldar were no longer to be differentiated from other East-Elves in those regions. For High-Elves such assimilation would always have been very unlikely, in my opinion.

As for Book-Legolas, besides being born beyond all this in (no-doubt) the Third Age, and being cultural a Silvan Elf, his grandmother/mother would likely have been Nandorin, I would posit.

Still, I think what makes him so appropriate for the Fellowship is that he not only can represent the Silvan Elves, who far and away account for most of the Firstborn still involved in Middle-Earth affairs, but by lineage, if nothing else, he can also represent the Beleriandic (Grey-Elven) Eldar.

Through Gildor, Glorfindel, Elrond, Galadriel, Elladan, Elrohir and even Aragorn to some degree, the High-Elves make critical, but appropriately indirect contributions, that provide them with final reconciliation for their past errors, sins and even grievances against the Enemy.

But Ost-in-Edhil, even if in its heyday it was only an echo of Gondolin or Tirion, would have been incomprehensible to any of the Company.