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gamegie
09-05-2000, 08:33 PM
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Does anybody know what orcs, trolls and the Balrog were doing so far from Mordor up in Moria ?

How could they have gotten through the lines of Lorien, Rohan and Gondor?

Apart for Mithril what was the Moria mined for ?

Gandalf claims to have gone through fire and water when he meets up again with Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas, what exactly does he mean?

You are welcome to answer or ask other questions.

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

Gwaihir the Windlord
09-05-2000, 09:09 PM
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Re: Questions about Moria..

I shall attempt to answer these questions in order.

1. Does anybody know what the Balrog, the Orcs and Trolls were doing so far from Mordor up in Moria?
The Balrog had lain resting in Moria since the coming of the Lords of the West, when it crept down under the ground to hide from them. The Dwarves delved deep and woke it up, it destroyed the colony and forced them to flee. After that, little is said. The Orcs and Trolls of the Misty Mountains were probably sent there by Sauron, to mine for mithril.

2. How could they have gotten through the lines of Lorien, Rohan and Gondor?
I don't know. Probably they came in secret and were not hindered.

3. Apart from Mithril what was the Moria mined for?
Although small deposits of other materials, such as iron, gold, and coal, could be found in Moria, these could all easily be obtained in traffic. Therefore these minerals were dug up when they were found, but the dwarves didn't go looking for them, for mithril was only found in Moria, and they mined that extensively.

4. When Gandalf meets Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in Fangorn Forest, he claims that he has gone through fire and water. What does this mean?
Basically, when Gandalf fell from the bridge, the Balrog and he plunged into deep water. The Balrog's fire was then quenched, but it had become a 'monster of slime, stronger than a strangling snake' and after a fight it fled. Gandalf followed it, knowing that it was his only chance of escaping, to the forgotten Endless Stair. He climbed this and reached the Tower of Durin in the peak of the Silvertine.
There the Balrog's flames were ignited once more, and he attacked Gandalf. But Gandalf prevailed, and in that terrible battle of flames he destroyed his foe.

How's that?

"Farewell! Wherever you fare, until your eyries receive you at the journey's end."</p>

galpsi
09-05-2000, 09:22 PM
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Re: Questions about Moria..

I believe that orcs, etc. arose before Sauron was in Mordor and that they had been established in various mountain ranges for quite some time.
Before they found mithril, early in the second age, the dwarves of Khazad-dum mined gold and silver (the toys of the dwarves) and iron (their servant). Nevertheless, I am not sure that mining was necessarily the only appeal of Moria. I believe that the caves above Kheled-zaram held an appeal distinct from ore-lodes, both for their beauty and for their suitability as a safe-haven. (Think of Gimli's attraction to Aglarond.)
At the bottom of the chasm spanned by Durin's Bridge, Gandalf and the fiery spirit were plunged into bone-chilling water. So there are the two elements literally. I suspect, however, that the reader is intended to detect a biblical metaphor, the death and rebirth cycle of baptism by water and fire which signify final redemption.
These are just quick, off-the-cuff notes towards an answer. I'm sure others will have deeper reflections.

</p>

Mithadan
09-06-2000, 06:32 AM
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Moria

I don't have LoTR with me. When were the Dwarf-&quot;goblin&quot; wars? Certainly before Sauron re-entered Mordor because the Hobbit was. Also, the orcs and trolls could have come from the north rather than the south. They may have entered for their own greedy reasons or even been left over from the wars.

</p>

HerenIstarion
10-23-2000, 11:32 AM
Thror was slain by Azog in 2790 T.A. that is one hundred years before Bilbo's birth and some 150 before Sauron re-entering Mordor. The war lasted from
2793 til 2799, when Azog was slain by Dain, and Moria was freed from orcs but was not retaken by the dwarves.

Mithadan
10-24-2000, 05:50 AM
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Re: Moria

So the Dwarf-Goblin wars would probably fall during the time that Sauron was reconstituting himself in the East or Dol Guldur. I seem to recall a reference in the Tale of Years about Sauron retreating from Dol Guldur into the East after members of the White Council began paying attention to him. This is, again, before the Hobbit.

The occupation of Moria may have been instigated by Sauron or it may have merely been orcs expanding their sphere down from the North (they also occupied Gundabad, etc.). Moria was a perfect environment for the orcs. Underground, dark, with access to both the East and West, and filled with plunder.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

gamegie
10-26-2000, 06:23 AM
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Re: Moria

I agree Mithadan, Moria is a prefect place for orcs to dwell in but what would they eat there, and as a matter of fact, what do orcs eat?

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

dogtrot
10-26-2000, 09:22 AM
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Re: Moria

yes and who did they trade with or raid. did they use the west entrance or the east? how did they navigate that bridge? did they have wagons? sorry everyone just had to make fun.<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

</p>

Mithadan
10-26-2000, 10:35 AM
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Re: Moria

They used the EAST ENTRANCE. EAST, EAST, EAST! Aaaaaaahhhh!

Actually, they probably did use the East entrance. They don't appear to have known about WestGate. Besides, they used the service entrance for easier access. <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

gamegie
10-28-2000, 05:32 AM
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Re: Moria

Yippee I have passed the 100th post and am now a wight.

Going back to my question, does anyone know what orcs eat? There is a thread going on in another topic about mushrooms, does that refer to orcs?


We know they like strong liquor, could they be cannibal or do they like bean sprouts? <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">


Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

Mithadan
10-28-2000, 05:51 AM
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Re: Moria

Congratulations Gamegie! The orcs of Saruman seem partial to man's flesh per conversations overheard by Merry and Pippin. They also threw the captive Hobbits a piece of dried meat.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

TolkienGurl
11-01-2002, 03:34 PM
In Gimli's song in the Fellowship of the Ring,one verse stands out in my head when it comes to questions about Moria:

"With golden roof and silver floor..."

If the roof was made from or covered in gold, and the floor in silver, why are the images from the book, and the movie of cold stone everywhere? Surely orcs and other foul creatures could not have looted all of it, especially if the precious metals were part of the structure of Durin's Halls. Thoughts and comments would be greatly appreciated. smilies/smile.gif

Dimaldaeon
11-01-2002, 04:20 PM
The line could mean that the roof and floor were decorated with gold and silver not actually made from them. Perhaps Durin's personal chamber (A throneroom?) had a gold roof and silver floor but it really sounds like old song exaggeration about how great Moria was now that the Dwarves had lost it

TolkienGurl
11-01-2002, 05:22 PM
Good thought, Dimaldaeon! I guess I should get to know some dwarves better - they do like to brag/exaggerate about their handiwork!

Keneldil the Polka-dot
11-01-2002, 05:34 PM
How about the Watcher at the East Gate? Anyone know what that is or where it may have come from? Perhaps some mutated offspring of Ungoliant? I seem to remember Gandalf or Aragorn saying something about "older and more foul things" than Sauron (?). The Silmarillion makes reference to evil beasts that roamed Middle Earth before the Elves awakened.

aragornreborn
11-02-2002, 02:27 PM
Actually, I think the Watcher you are referring to was from the Westgate. "...the pool is up to the wall at Westgate. The Watcher in the Water took Oin." If it is from the Westgate, then it could be referring to the thing that tried to grab Frodo at the gates of Moria (portrayed as an octupus type creature in the movie). As to where, when, and how he originated, he probably had been around since the beginning (similar to ungoliant). Other than that, I have no idea. Anyway, Just a thought...

Manwe Sulimo
11-02-2002, 02:55 PM
The Watcher in the Water was, in fact, what attacked the Fellowship at the West Gate. It had not been there since "the beginning", seeing as how the West Gate was used frequently by the Dwarves of Khazad-dm and the Elves of Eregion before it became Moria. Gandalf's reference to "older and more foul things" was during his reunion with the "Fellowship" in Fangorn. He was referring to creatures he saw/heard while chasing the Balrog and ascending the Endless Stair.

For earlier questions, there were *always* Orcs in the Misty Mountains. Remember, Morgoth wasn't only concerned with what happened in Belerian, but with all of Middle-earth. He doubtlessly had Orcs all throughout the Grey and Misty Mountains before the Noldor and Sindar even came east over the Blue Mountains.

The Orcs, seeing as how the Dwarves had been driven out of Khazad-dm, plundered Dwarrowdelve and probably took the Balrog as their Lord. Remember, Balrogs are intelligent Maiar who *can* talk, and Orc racial memories probably remember Gothmog and the like.

As for food, it's a pretty generic question in Tolkien's work. The only real agriculture mentioned are in the Shire, the "southern fiefs of Gondor", and a vague reference to the "fields of Nargothrond" in an early version of "Narn Hin Hrin". Meat couldn't possibly be supplied for so many Orcs in the caves, unless there were frequent sorties into Hollin to hunt. This leaves cannibalism, or some strange, edible creature indiginous to Moria.

Yummy.

Selmo
11-03-2002, 10:00 AM
It's clear from the arguments among the Orcs, as they ran across Rohan with Merry and Pippin, that the orcs of Moria had no direct conection to either Saruman or Sauron. They didn't speak the same languages and had to talk to each other in Westron.

I think it likely that they ahd never been under Sauron's control, except perhaps for a while when Angmar existed, and then only through the Witch King.

Bill Ferny
11-03-2002, 12:49 PM
The discussion about Moria orcs is point on. The orc race is just as complicated as any other race, with differing languages, customs, cultures, and habits. There was certainly nothing generic about any of Tolkien's creations.

The reference to ceilings of gold and floors of silver is very similar to descriptions of Herot in Beowulf. From archeology, we know this description refers to the inlaying of gold, silver, or bronze foil.

While food may be scarce under mountain, there are some sources, such as fish that can be found in underground lakes (ala gollum fare). Of course, such a diet would have to be suplemented by what could be raided for or hunted in the surrounding regions. Worg meat probably would have been plentiful, and, of course, there's always good old orc meat, which isn’t too bad if cooked properly. After all, what’s a dead orc good for if not the pot?