names and their meanings

[the_master_of_puppets]

After reading the review on the Downs today it was brought to my attention the fact Tolkien may 'perhaps' (enphisis on the perhaps there) have chosen his character names for certain reasons and something else to do with planned irony or something like that (but i dont think i was that exactly). Was i the only one too stupid to notice, or was it the case that perhaps it wasnt like that at all? Again, im just curious about other peoples views...

[Elven-Maiden]

I noticed that between Merry and Pippin, Merry was the more serious one, and Pippin was, well... smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/tongue.gif smilies/eek.gif smilies/cool.gif
(That's the best I can describe it!)

I hope that answers your question.

[the_master_of_puppets]

do you mean merry and pippin's characters were created in that way to kind of work off each other, and inspier certain situations, because pippin was more outragous and amusing to the read than perhaps merry who was more sensible and care taking? Incidently, in the movie merry's role was likened very much to that of Pippins

[Elendur]

I know that Tolkien made many of the names of his characters and places based on Welsh language. I dont know about planned irony though.

[Joy]

Okay, I don't know about planned, but I noticed several name/personality comparisions. Which, by the way, I do with all great literature.

Grima Wormtongue - He is the bearer of grim news to King Thoeden. Wormtongue reminds me of a silver-tongued devil. He is also serving two masters, Thoeden and Saurman.

Samwise - I know that it is not seen very often this way, mostly he is called Sam. Samwise, in his own way, is very wise. He realizes where Frodo went and goes along with him - "Breaking of the Fellowship". He makes wise decisions all along the way.

Sauron - sounds like sorrow when you say it fast. He is the one responsible for bring sorrow upon the earth.

Sauruman - sounds like sorrow-man. Because of his lust for the ring, he brought sorrow to the Elves, hobbits, dwarves and men.

I know that there are others, can't remember them for the live of me.

[the_master_of_puppets]

thank u very much joy! those actually make complete sense smilies/smile.gif

[Birdland]

I found out that Gimli was taken from Norse mythology.

Gimli was the heavenly hall where the new order of gods lived after Ragnarok, which was the last battle between Good and Evil. Most of Heaven and Earth were destroyed, but a new heaven and earth arose. Gimli was the fairest of the heavenly halls.

"Gimli" still seems to be a popular term in some Northern European countries to describe a "heavenly" or peaceful place.

Doesn't sound like "our" Gimli, does it? smilies/biggrin.gif

[Lush]

Originally posted by Joy:
<STRONG>
Sauruman - sounds like sorrow-man. Because of his lust for the ring, he brought sorrow to the Elves, hobbits, dwarves and men.</STRONG>

And to himself.

[littlemanpoet]

Actually, Tolkien tells us that "Samwise" means "halfwit". Sam is not supposed to be a genius, but he has a lot of good old earthy common sense. It's his loyalty that brings out his wise decisions. If only I could be that loyal... smilies/frown.gif

I think that Tolkien chose all his names with utmost care. That's the kind of artist he was. Like Glorfindel. What a name!

[Joy]

Some one stated on a forum that Gimli meant heaven in some language of Europe.

They noted that this didn't sound like our Gimli. Well, I beg to differ.

Gimli was the only dwarf that was able to pass over the Sundering Seas and dwelt with the Eldar. Being that the land of Valimar is likened to Heaven, could not Tolkien chose this name for that reason? I think that he did.

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Joy ]

[Joy]

Actually it was on this very thread. smilies/redface.gif Silly me didn't re-read when I started to post.

From Birdland
Gimli was the heavenly hall where the new order of gods lived after Ragnarok, which was the last battle between Good and Evil. Most of Heaven and Earth were destroyed, but a new heaven and earth arose. Gimli was the fairest of the heavenly halls.

"Gimli" still seems to be a popular term in some Northern European countries to describe a "heavenly" or peaceful place.

[Joy]

While reading another thread on this section - I started to read again the part of Frodo and Saurman in "The Scourging of the Shire". I read this to my mom, and she noticed that Saurman's AKA was Sharky. She caught that he was like a shark, a devourer.

If you want to see other name/personality linkage, read some of Shakespear's work and read Mallory's Morte D'Authur.

[Sillabub]

Welll, there is that Liiiiitle thing about the quenya/sindar/whatever naming. See, the best examples I could provide are these:
Arwen='Ar'(royal)+'wen'(maiden)
Lomelinde='lome'(night)+'linde'(singer)
Morwen='Mor'(dark)+'wen'(maiden)
Eowyn='Eo'(horse)+modified 'wen'(maiden)
Isn't that cool?!I think so. Anyways,that's all I can think of for now. As for the stuff that's NOT in the least related to quenya (besides sindar, I don't like sindar) I'll just call it Rohirric just for the sake of it. So long! and also, if anyone knows the language of men, could they tell me about it?

[Sillabub]

oh yes. And 'sharkey' comes from the orckish 'sharku', which means 'old man'. It was a name given to Saruman when he became.....not a wizard.

[Sillabub]

And I'm pretty sure 'Elessar' means 'healer', at least I'm sure it's elvish most likely quenya.

[Sillabub]

The name Sauron is the masculine version of 'saura' (from quenya) which means abhorred. To make this word into a MASCULINE name 'a' or in most cases 'on' is added. So Saura+on=Sauron, which means abhorred!

[Roccotari Eldandil]

Most of the names are in either Quenya or Sindarin. But it is kind of funny to see the coincidences(sp?) like Gimli's name.
A few more: Orthanc="forked height" in Sindarin, but Anglo-Saxon orþanc (þ=th) means "cunning device"(a fitting name; Saruman has the ?Old English? word for cunning in it).
Incánus (Gandalf's old name in Gondor) is the same word, minus the accent, for "grey-haired" in Latin.

Sillabub--Not to be overly critical, but a few corrections to your posts:
Éowyn=éo-(Rohirric or Old English "horse")+ modified winë (R or OE "friend", I think.)
about Elessar: you're right, it IS Quenya, but it means "Elf-stone." Elen "star" + sar "stone", with n changing to s because ns can't happen in Quenya.

[Elianna]

Whether they were meant for puns for not, the names in Tolkien's words were definately not random. He was a linguist you know. Grap a copy of "The Langauges of Tolkien's Middle-earth" by Ruth S. Noel, it gives a lot of translations for names that I hadn't seen anywhere else. For example, you were talking about Gimli: It's Old Norse for "lee of flame" and "highest heaven". And add a second 'n' and an accent to the second 'a' in Gandalf and it's Old Norse for "sorceror elf". Weird huh?

[Yavanna228]

I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned the Linguistic Puns, Riddles, and Jokes in LOTR, etc (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002998) thread yet. It discusses some of the same concepts that are being discussed here. Take a look! smilies/smile.gif
Peace

[Sharkû]

Old English wyn or wynn means 'delight, joy'.

"Gandalf is a substitution in the English narrative on the same lines as the treatment of Hobbit and Dwarf names. It is an actual Norse name (found applied to a Dwarf in Völuspá) used by me since it appears to contain gandr, a staff, especially one used in "magic," and might be supposed to mean "Elvish wight with a (magic) staff." (UT 4,II)

Everything else is stated in the books as well as long as it is significant.

[Sapphire_Flame]

Here are a couple that I noted:

Elladan: "ell"-->"edhel"=Elf and "adan"=Man; thus being something of a tribute to his heritage.

Elrohir: "el"-->"edhel"=Elf and "rohir"=horse=lord, which Tolkien, in this case had mean knight.

I just found this rather interesting. You can find more like this at Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm).

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Tarien Ithil]

Sillabub,

'saura' (from quenya) which means abhorred

Doesn't 'saura' also mean 'foul'? I've always interpretted it that way.

And wasn't Legolas called 'Legolas' because he prefferred to travel on foot? smilies/smile.gif

Best,

~Tarien

[Elianna]

Tarien,
About Legolas: It is a bit interesting that 'leg' is part of Legolas' name, but I doubt that Tolkien was thinking that when he named the elf prince. His name is translated for us and means 'green-leaf'. This is why Galadriel calls him 'Legolas Greenleaf' in her warning to him about the sea; Greenleaf is NOT his last name.

And I don't think he particularly (sp?) perferred walking. He seemed happy enough with Arod.

[Finwe]

That's true. I'm assuming that he was called Legolas Greenleaf among the non-Elven folk, and Legolas Thranduilion ("Son of Thranduil") among the Elves, since he really didn't have an epessë.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

since he really didn't have an epessë

Or we just don't know his epessë. Many elves had even three "official" names(if i remember right).

All i know about legolas's name is that las=leaf(at least in Quenya) and the rest should mean green. But that confuses me a bit since green=galen(or something like that) and i don't recognice that element from his name.

I have been wondering the name Isildur. There's obviously Isil(/Ithil)=the Moon and dur=tower -> Moontower?
Is my conclusion from the name all wrong?

[Frodo Baggins]

The name Grima has noting to do with grim news. It has EVERYTHING to do with the Anglo-Saxon (And Rohirrim) word "Grima" which means 'helmet'or 'mask' or in more poetical senses "Ghost"

Now the name "Grima son of Galmod" as Gandalf calls him

"Mod' is the Anglo-Saxon word for 'heart' as in the personality or soul. 'Gal' is wanton or licentious. Galmod, a wanton or licentious heart.

oh and the Wormtongue part. I think that come from 'wyrm' which could be a snake or dragon. Snakes have forked tongues, and to say someone has a forked tongue is to say they are decietful. Wormtonge is a way of saying he is a liar and/or deciever.

[ July 17, 2003: Message edited by: Frodo Baggins ]

[Elentári]

About 'legolas'...I think in Lost Tales (1 or 2, can't remember) there was a note put in by Tolkien saying:

Note
Laigolas = green-leaf (Quenya: laiqa, Gnomish or Noldorin: laigos = green, green-ness; Quenya: lassë, Gnomish or Noldorin: lass = leaf)
becoming archaic because of final form [of laigos] becoming laib [green], gave Legolast i.e. keen-sight (last: 'look, glance', leg, lêg 'keen, piercing'). But perhaps both were his naems, as the Gnomes [Noldor] delighted to give two similar-sounding names of dissimilar meaning, as Laigolas Legolast, Túrin Turambar.Legolas the ordinary form is a confusion of the two'
So when Galadriel calls Legolas 'Legolas Greenleaf', I assume this is because Legolas is loosly translated as 'green-leaf'
By the way, in the above quote, the Laigolas Legolast referred to I think is possibly the Legolas who lived in Gondolin, 'who led the exiles over Tumladin in the dark, being night-sighted, and he liveth still in Tol Eressëa named by the Eldar there Laiqalassë...' because he is the only other person who Tolkien wrote about having a name roughly similar to Legolas. Does that make sense? Maybe not, but nevermind.

[Roccotari Eldandil]

Finwe-- I just read something in Letters that might help clear up your galen confusion. It says in one of them (sorry, can't remember which; I had to return it to the library. grr.) that laeg was the old Sindarin word for green, but it was replaced later on by galen/calen. Leg- is a corruption of laeg.

[ July 18, 2003: Message edited by: Roccotari Eldandil ]

[Lyra Greenleaf]

From Appendix F- On Translation:

For most Hobbits, Tolkien just took the sound and look of their normal name and modernised it- for example changing the endings to ones which look more traditionally masculine or feminine to us. This means the names look and sound similar to the originals. For example: Bilbo, Bungo, Polo, Lotho, Tanta, Nina, Otho, Odo Dora, Drogo, Cora. However there were exceptions...

Samwise is a "modernization of ancient English (samwis)" meaning "half-wise, simple" (a charming thing to call your son)- a translation of his Hobbit name Banazir. In this case, Tolkien says, he translated for meaning as opposed to leaving it close to the original.

Similarly for Hamfast, meaning "stay at home"- a translation of Ranagud.

Finally, and I'm surprised no-one has picked up on this yet as it's a word in common use- Merry. His Hobbit name was Kalimac, shortened to Kali. Kali meant "jolly" and so Tolkien translated the shortened form to Merry in order to convey that, instead of modernising his actual name. (Even though he says that he mostly left the Bucklander's names alone as "if queer now, they were queer in their own day").

So yes, I think the names definitely mean something. Oh, and if you haven't PLEASE read Appendix F. It's absolutely fascinating! And it's an extention of the story really, as Tolkien is still acting like he found the book and translated it.

[ July 19, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

[doug*platypus]

Good point made by Elven-Maiden about Merry being merry. It might sound a bit obvious at first, but when you think about it, it's quite notable that these two are known by two different names (even if Pippin is clearly the more merry one). Having the choice of names between Meriadoc and Merry, and Peregrin and Pippin, allows the hobbits to have two different characters.

The name Peregrin son of Paladin suits the owner to a T once he puts on the sable and silver of a Knight of the Citadel. Likewise, Merry has a tough knight side and a cheery hobbit side. These two seem to grow into their original names towards the end of the story, but always manage to retain some of their childishness. They would certainly have been called Merry and Pip to their closest friends even after becoming famous hobbit captains at the Battle of Bywater.

Aragorn and Strider are the most obvious other dual naming of this kind. The more noble and kingly he becomes throughout the story, the more he is referred to as Aragorn, and later the Lord Aragorn, plus all his 50 other names. Gandalf has dozens of names, as well, which certainly emphasises the fact his personality has many different sides. Gandalf is the least formal-sounding of his many names; when he is referred to as Mithrandir, it somehow makes him seem more respected and lordly. Tolkien was very good with words, like that.

[Joy]

I have now been studying OE. I love how so many words today (and in LotR) have the connection to Oe and the Germanic languages.

Elrohir - I don't know how I missed this name meaning.

[Evisse the Blue]

Also it gives me great pleasure, a good name. I always in writing start with a name. Give me a name and it produces a story, not the other way about normally. (Tolkien)
Interesting, no? He didn't come up with the story first, and then ponder possible names for the characters; instead a character's name made him think of a specific story to fit that character. That's partly responsible for the realistic quality of his tales (if one can call fantasy realistic, which I believe one can). So names were hardly given at random and most of the time they have double meaning: one in the context of Middle Earth, the other, in the context of our real world, if one is lucky (or learned) enough to decypher them.
Yavanna, the link you provided is not working :( so I'll put here my recent discovery (though one you may be already familiar with): the city of Edinburgh in Celtic is called Dunedin (Dunedain, anyone? Now we know where Rangers come from :D ).

[Joy]

Here is the link that Yavanna gave.

Linguistic Puns (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=40)

[Elianna]

I think it's fun to read these kinds of discussions because you'll always have someone say SamWISE, then you'll always have someone who says, "Actually, it means half-wit." Maybe Tolkien meant to do that.

To continue that thought: In the "Epilogue" of LotR (HoME v 9), Aragorn writes a letter to Sam; it's written all in Elvish. In the letter, he asks all Sam's family to come and see him as he passes by, and in inviting all the family, he translates all their names into Elvish. Then he makes a pun in saying that "half-wise" should be called "full-wise."

Also, something I noticed reading App. F, the 'sam' part of Samwise means 'half', so all thoughout the book, they're calling a Halfling 'half'. :D

[Bombadil]

I do not know if any have brought up the possibility that "half" could perhaps be short for halfling, therefore giving Samwise the title of a wise halfling. Perhaps not brought up due to the improbability this is the case, but it makes one think. :D

[Guinevere]

Originally posted by Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant:
I have been wondering the name Isildur. There's obviously Isil(/Ithil)=the Moon and dur=tower -> Moontower?
Is my conclusion from the name all wrong?

The ending -(n)dur means something like "devoted servant" (eg :Elendur,Isildur's eldest son) just as the ending -(n)dil means "friend". (Amandil, Elendil, Mardil)

and btw, in Barad-dûr, the dark tower: it is "Barad" which means tower,

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

The following is something I posted to another thread not too long ago, but it has more bearing here:

As has been acknowledged elsewhere in the forum Frodo’s name comes from the Old German word ‘frodá’ meaning ‘wise by experience’. Frodo’s journey is very much a journey from innocence into wisdom, which is precisely what philosophy (which is Greek for “love of wisdom” ) is all about! The fact that this journey to wisdom is painful and arduous I think only re-enforces the deeply philosophical interest and impetus of the text, for who but a philosopher would know better the difficulty (impossibility?) of achieving true wisdom within the time of human history and experience.

The names of Aragorn and Arwen also point to equally weighty philosophical concerns:

• ‘Ar’ is Old English (the language that Professor Tolkien devoted his professional life to studying and teaching) and has several meanings. When applied to a person it denotes a messenger, in particular a servant or herald of God (angel or apostle). When presented as a quality it means glory, honour, reverence, dignity, grace, favour or pity.

• ‘agorn’ (in OE) means to have or possess, or to deliver and restore; it can also mean to come forth, grow, or approach.

Aragorn’s name therefore has been very carefully chosen by Tolkien to mean the possession, approach and restoration of all that ‘ar’ denotes. This is not allegory (in which case Aragorn’s name would be something like Truth and Sauron’s would be Falsehood), but it demonstrates the philosophical nature of the text from the very groundwork out of which it was built (the names that Tolkien constructed). But this philosophical pattern goes even further when we consider the implications of Arwen’s name. We’ve got ‘ar’ again, but with ‘wen’ a whole new slew of connotations enters the text:

• ‘wenn’ means belief, hope, expectation, and is a form of ‘wenan’ which means to believe in, expect or hope and fear for an outcome

• ‘wyn’ means joy, rapture or delight.

Arwen’s name them means variously the delight or joy of ‘ar’ (so it makes perfect sense that she would love Aragorn) and belief and hope in, expectation of the fulfilment or arrival or ‘ar’ (so it makes perfect sense that Aragorn’s journey is concluded only when he marries Arwen).

The names of these two characters points the way to a whole series of what I think are explicitly philosophical explorations of the manner in which ‘ar’ is brought about, found, hoped for, nourished and realised in human history. This is far more than a simple fairy-tale love story between a hero and his lady – the relationship of Aragorn and Arwen is a dynamic and important part of the overall fabric, which explores the nature of Aragorn’s revelation of his innate wisdom, in relation to Frodo’s slow and painful growth into wisdom.

[Saraphim]

Some thoughts on Legolas's name:

Obviously, it means Greenleaf, but as to what was said *checks thread* well, a year ago, that green=galen. There was a river in Beleriand called the Legolin. Unless I am very mistaken, this means 'Green River', in=river, as in 'anduin', so Legolas's name is split like this: "Logol" and "as", "Legol" meaning 'green' and not "lego".

Some actual on-topic thoughts:

The name "Frodo" is derived from the Anglo-Saxon name "Froda", which, according to my little copy of Beowulf here is the name of one of the kings. Tolkien had said many, many times that he was influenced by Beowulf, and who could be more deserving of a king's name than the Ringbearer?

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Thanks Guivenere, I had already forgotten this thread :) And yes indeed; "dûr" means dark...that was my bad.
As in the name Anduin, "an(d)" = long and "duin" = a (long) river. "Lin" itself means pool or lake as in Linaewen. That could mean that it's "lego" that means green and not "legol" if we all agree that "las" means leaf. I read somewhere in this forum a great explanation of Legolas' name but I can't find it :(

[NightKnight]

I read in a Tolkien quiz book that all the dwarf names from The Hobbit come from Norse mythology.

[Elianna]

For the meaning and derivation of 'Legolas', check an old topic I started called "Greenleaf?" (the mod. Legolas' explanation is right, not mine)

As for Legolin, "The Eytomologies" in HoME v 5 says 'legol' means 'nimble, active, running free' and this is the 'legol' in Legolin.

[Saraphim]

I must remember that posting early in the morning is not like writing fiction at the same time. My mind, while coming up with nice fictional things, does not seem to grasp philology at two-thirty.

Thank you all for the help with my little Legolas problem, and I'll say that I give my regards to all of you on this thread. It's uber-cool.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

The thread mentioned in Elianna's post is the one I was looking for. I'll link it here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10637).

[Aasitus]

Ah, the Barrow-Downs. It's been too long since I last visited this board.

This isn't directly related to the topic, but is related to names nevertheless.

What about surnames in Tolkien's books? Does Tolkien mention family names for, say, gondorian people anywhere? It seems that only "lesser folk", like men of Bree and hobbits have family names, whereas the high ones are [first name] son of [first name], like Denethor son of Ecthelion and such. This seems perfectly logical for the royal families, and perhaps all of the elves as well, since they are completely different from mortal races, and "higher" as well. But in real world, even royal families have family, they just aren't used. I suppose an ordinary man of Gondor may well have had a family as well, but we only know a couple of those.

A couple of dwarves with surnames are mentioned - at least Dain II Ironfoot and Thorin Oakenshield. These aren't really family names, though, for at least Thorin's name did not come from his father, he took it after the Battle of Nanduhirion. I can't remember where Ironfoot comes from, but it probably has a similar meaning. Legolas Greenleaf, an elf, also has a surname, Westron translation of his elvish name. Beleg Strongbow got his surname from his unmatched skill with bow, I suppose. And then there are hundreds of names like Atanatar the Glorious (Atanatar Alcarin).

So, there are hundreds of surnames, and many of the lesser folk have family names, but has Tolkien ever mentioned elves or men of Gondor, Rohan, Arnor etc. as having family name systems? Tolkien carefully designed every part of his world, and I believe there is something written about this as well.

[Guinevere]

We have recently talked about family names in this thread :Race parents (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10672)
I think that Middle-earth in general is an archaic heroic world, where people don't have family names but are called "son of ...." or have a "nickname" as surname.

The Hobbits (and the men of Bree as well ) are somehow quite a different, and more modern society; they do have family names, and in The Hobbit, Bilbo is even called "Mr.Baggins". In fact, they are an anachronism in ME ;(Not only because of the names. Think of how Bilbo and his way of living is described , the clock on the mantlepiece, the morning post etc.) they sound more like rural people of the 19th century.)
And I think Tolkien did this deliberately, so we can identify with the Hobbits, because they are not so remote , they are a bridge to the archaic world of ME.