Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[Kuruharan]

Why didn't Thorin just crown himself King of the Blue Mountains while he was there? Was there some sort of wealth level requirement that had to be satisfied before he could do that? Were the Blue Mountains just too ghetto for any self-respecting dwarf to want to have his kingdom there?

I am curious because before the dwarves didn't seem to have any particular objection to setting up new homelands as the need arose. When they were driven out of Khazad-dum, they went to the Lonely Mountain, to the Grey Mountains and back again but after they were driven out of Erebor no other place than Erebor seemed good enough.

I am curious as to why.

[Inziladun]

Interesting question. Even leaving aside Thorin, why wouldn't one of his forebears have thought of doing so?

Perhaps the legacies of the ruined Nogrod and Belegost soured the Dwarves on the Ered Luin, though we're told in UT and LOTR that they retained mines there that were still in use at the time of the War of the Ring.

Also, establishing a new kingdom there could have been seen as a sign of disrespect, especially when the vanished cities had been the homes of other clans, the Firebeards and the Longbeams.

[Pitchwife]

Off the top of my head, maybe there already was a Dwarven King of the Blue Mountains when Thorin came there. I mean, do we know what happened to the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod (the Firebeards and Broadbeams, IIRC) after the drowning of Beleriand? Did they all migrate eastward and merge with the Longbeards of Khazad-dûm, or was there a Dwarven community of some size left in Third Age Ered Luin? If the latter, I guess they would have had a king of their own - who would certainly have harboured and honoured Thorin, but would have been wary of any attempt to usurp his throne or set up another kingdom in the neighborhood.

To answer your more general question, I think the Dwarves, even if forced by necessity to set up new dwellings if driven out of their old ones, didn't forget their former homes so easily. They never gave up the dream of retaking Khazad-dûm, as Thrór's and Balin's stories show; and as long as this wasn't possible, Erebor seems to have been the thing coming closest to Home for them. Or maybe they were just fed up with being pushed around across the map. On the meta-level, we know Tolkien modelled his Dwarves in TH and LotR on the Jews to some degree, and there's something very Jewish in this longing of a wandering people for the Promised Land - Dwarven zionism, if you like.

(x-ed with Zil)

[Mithalwen]

Why didn't Thorin just crown himself King of the Blue Mountains while he was there? Was there some sort of wealth level requirement that had to be satisfied before he could do that? Were the Blue Mountains just too ghetto for any self-respecting dwarf to want to have his kingdom there?


Typically I can't lay my hand on UT just now but I seem to remember in the Quest of Erebor Gandalf says that the dwarves were in very reduced circumstances in the Blue Mountains scraping a living. It was probably too pitiful and existance by comparison to declare oneself king of such an impoverished community - as the Chieftains of the Dunedain did not call themselves King or Elrond designate himself "High King of the Noldor" after Gil-galad - there was just too few and nothing that could really be called a realm.

[LadyBrooke]

After a search that found this,

Many Dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers.

which would support Ered Luin being diminished...and the quote of Gandalf's about Thorin being in exile:
For just as I was nearing Bree I was overtake by Thorin Oakenshield, who lived then in exile beyond the the northwestern borders of the Shire.
Which leads me to suspect that Thorin was more like one of the government's in exile during the World Wars, who didn't try to establish new kingdoms or countries.

I still have not managed to find the quote you're talking about, Mith...of course, that's likely because I've never studied the dwarves in the detail I have the elves. That's also why I have no real thoughts on this...:Merisu:

[Inziladun]

Another thought: the major Dwarven settlements we see in the books seem to have been chosen for their proximity to precious metals. At least that can be said for Khazad-dûm and mithril.

I don't know if it's ever said what sort of metals or gems were found in the Blue Mountains, but the Dwarves had quite a long time to search them while Nogrod and Belegost were standing. The range was diminished after the War of Wrath and the drowning of Beleriand, so maybe by Thorin Oakenshield's time the Dwarves saw Ered Luin as being mostly played out, and thus not a suitable place to establish a new, grandiose dwarf-kingdom.

[Mithalwen]

I still have not managed to find the quote you're talking about, Mith...of course, that's likely because I've never studied the dwarves in the detail I have the elves. That's also why I have no real thoughts on this...:Merisu:

Ah well I am more of an elf-fancier myself. I haven't found UT yet but in the Hobbit Thorin says "Long ago in my grandfather Thror's time our family was driven out of the far North, and came back with all their wealth and tools" (my italics). After Smaug's attack on the lonely mountain "we went away, and we have had to earn our livings as best we could up and down the lands, often sinking as low as blacksmith-work or even coal-mining".

If this is my sole source I am I bit surprised since I read the Hobbit so seldom compared to UT and it will bug me til I find what I think I was remembering! But at least I haven't imagined it entirely...

[Kuruharan]

leaving aside Thorin, why wouldn't one of his forebears have thought of doing so

Because I needed a nice clear and concise title to get my point across. ;)

maybe there already was a Dwarven King of the Blue Mountains when Thorin came there. I mean, do we know what happened to the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod (the Firebeards and Broadbeams, IIRC) after the drowning of Beleriand? Did they all migrate eastward and merge with the Longbeards of Khazad-dûm

We never hear of a king or two already being there but that doesn't entirely rule out the possibility. I had always had the impression that Belegost and Nogrod were both destroyed in the drowning of Beleriand, but there were still some dwarves there.

as the Chieftains of the Dunedain did not call themselves King or Elrond designate himself "High King of the Noldor" after Gil-galad - there was just too few and nothing that could really be called a realm.

That is a very interesting parallel I had not thought of before.

the major Dwarven settlements we see in the books seem to have been chosen for their proximity to precious metals

Also a distinct possibility.

It probably was some combination of the above...or it could have been Tolkien was trying to tell a story and Thorin being content where he was would have ruined it. ;)

[Rumil]

iirc Thorin had 'Halls' in the Blue Mountains but no doubt they weren't a patch on Erebor.

I think Thorin (or was it Gandalf?) complained that they were mere coal-miners these days, presumably rather than gold- or mithril- miners and master jewellers and craftsmen.

But I like the idea that Thorin refused to even hint at giving up his claim to being King of Erebor by taking or creating some lesser title. And the views of the original Dwarves of the Blue Mountains must have been a major consideration.

[littlemanpoet]

Rumil speaks to something that occurred to me almost immediately as a possible piece of the puzzle. Revenge is close to the heart of Dwarves who have suffered ill at another's hands. So along with all the economic, namesake, and suchlike reasons, I can see Thorin refusing to settle for anything less on the sheer grounds that he will not let Smaug demean him into naming anything but Erebor his kingdom.

[Kuruharan]

Rumil speaks to something that occurred to me almost immediately as a possible piece of the puzzle. Revenge is close to the heart of Dwarves who have suffered ill at another's hands. So along with all the economic, namesake, and suchlike reasons, I can see Thorin refusing to settle for anything less on the sheer grounds that he will not let Smaug demean him into naming anything but Erebor his kingdom.

So was it personality difference between Thorin and his predecessors who did relocate their kingdoms after Moria or did it just seem more likely they would be able to kill a dragon over a something they didn't know what it was at the time?

[littlemanpoet]

So was it personality difference between Thorin and his predecessors who did relocate their kingdoms after Moria or did it just seem more likely they would be able to kill a dragon over a something they didn't know what it was at the time?Hmm... I see your point. It strikes me that Thorin and company never really did have a plan, at least not until Gandalf came around. But hunger for revenge does not require hope of its achievement, nor bear any resemblance to reality.

One must not forget the simple avarice of Dwarves. A Dwarf King would move his kingdom if he believed there wa a richer mine upon which he could found one. I suspect Thorin did not think he could do better than Erebor, nor even achieve a shadow of that glory, which bears out considering their own talk of having to take on mere smithying and coal mining.

[Galadriel55]

Bringing up a quote:

...Gandalf looked at him with wonder. "That is strange, Thorin Oakenshield," he said. "For I have thought of you also; and though I am on my way to the Shire, it was in my mind that is the way also to your halls."
"Call them so, if you will," said Thorin. "They are only poor lodgings in exile. But you would be welcome there, if you would come. ..."

So on one hand he's in exile, ie not in his land. On the other hand, he has enough power to welcome Gandalf.

[littlemanpoet]

So on one hand he's in exile, ie not in his land. On the other hand, he has enough power to welcome Gandalf.Well, Bilbo Baggins has enough "power" to welcome Gandalf, too.

[Inziladun]

Going back to something Pitchwife said, it seems rather odd to me that the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm allowed themselves to be ousted from their most famous, greatest mansion in the first place.
Granted, the Balrog was a creature the likes of which they'd not met before, but still: they didn't know precisely what the Necromancer was either, but that didn't stop Thorin from entertaining ideas about trying to take him out.

And when I think about it, was it really beyond the powers of a large force of Dwarves, say the size of the army at the Battle of Nanduhirion, to have destroyed one Balrog? After all, one Elf accomplished just that twice in Gondolin.

[Galadriel55]

Well, Bilbo Baggins has enough "power" to welcome Gandalf, too.

In his own country and in his own house. :smokin: I'd assume it's the king/lord/ruler of the land that could welcome guests such as Gandalf (the Shire has no King, lols).

[Kuruharan]

And when I think about it, was it really beyond the powers of a large force of Dwarves, say the size of the army at the Battle of Nanduhirion, to have destroyed one Balrog? After all, one Elf accomplished just that twice in Gondolin.

It was beyond their strength to keep it from driving them out of their homes in the first place.

Elves, particularly the powerful elves, had greater innate spiritual strength.

Not to say it couldn't have been done but it wasn't very likely.

[Inziladun]

It was beyond their strength to keep it from driving them out of their homes in the first place.

Elves, particularly the powerful elves, had greater innate spiritual strength.

Not to say it couldn't have been done but it wasn't very likely.

So in Middle-earth math, one Noldo > thousands of Dwarves? :p

[littlemanpoet]

So in Middle-earth math, one Noldo > thousands of Dwarves? :p
Apparently. But do remember that in the 1st Age the puissance (spiritual and otherwise) of all the Children of Iluvatar was not yet splintered as it became by the 3rd Age.

[Galadriel55]

Apparently. But do remember that in the 1st Age the puissance (spiritual and otherwise) of all the Children of Iluvatar was not yet splintered as it became by the 3rd Age.

I think that spiritual puissance is needed more that physical when confronting a Balrog. But this is a bit off topic, so I won't elaborate.

Also, it was one desparate Noldo with nothing to lose but everything on stake, and a thousand confused scared Dwarves.

[Puddleglum]

So in Middle-earth math, one Noldo > thousands of Dwarves? :pNot as such. I think it's more a matter of match-ups. The greatest of the Eldar had the particular skill/talent/whatever to match up with a Balrog's particular strengths and weaknesses (whatever they may be), the Dwarves apparently didn't (at least in the setting of the Mines). That doesn't mean that an Elf hero would match-up so well against the strengths/weaknesses of an army of Dwarves.

It may be as simple as the Elves having a defense (lacked by Dwarves) against the Balrog's primary attack methods. Or, to use a slightly wacky illustration,

Sissors (Dwarves) Cuts Paper (Elves)
Paper (Elves) Wraps Rock (Balrog)
Rock (Balrog) Smashes Sissors (Dwarves)
That is, in fighting, A Beats B and B beats C does *not* necessarily mean A beats C.

Of course, don't read too much into this illustration. In reality, Elves (esp Noldor) hold their own pretty well against Dwarves also.

[Inziladun]

I think that spiritual puissance is needed more that physical when confronting a Balrog. But this is a bit off topic, so I won't elaborate.

Also, it was one desparate Noldo with nothing to lose but everything on stake, and a thousand confused scared Dwarves.

Just think, if the Orcs had had the presence of mind, they could have rigged a Balrog costume, dressed one of the larger ones up in it, and taken Erebor from Dáin. ;)

In support of the "Erebor or nothing" theory, there's yet more UT quotes from Gandalf:

'I was as eager as he was to see the end of Smaug, but Thorin was all for plans of battle and war, as if he were really King Thorin the Second, and I could see no hope in that.'

'Your own ideas are those of a king, Thorin Oakenshield: but your kingdom is gone.'

I take those to mean that Thorin simply didn't have the numbers for a flat-out assault on Smaug. Why not? Because a large number of the Erebor survivors had fled to the Iron Hills after Smaug's arrival. Why wouldn't they have flocked to him in the Ered Luin, if not because they didn't consider the possibility of a real dwarf-kingdom existing there again to be an option? Instead, they stayed close to the Lonely Mountain, the real kingdom of Thorin.

x/d with Puddleglum.- I didn't really mean to go into here the ease of which the Dwarves were kicked out of Moria; I was mainly being facetious.

[Galadriel55]

Just think, if the Orcs had had the presence of mind, they could have rigged a Balrog costume, dressed one of the larger ones up in it, and taken Erebor from Dáin. ;)

Orcs having a presense of mind? What new insanity is that?! :p

No, really. A Balrog has a presense that no orc - with or without a mind - can duplicate: its willpower. My theory is that most "Balrog duels" (or any Ainu battles, for that matter) involve a contest of wills as much as physical prowess.

I think that a jig-saw puzzle is another way to visualise the Balrog/Elf/Dwarf triangle. If the pieces match, you have an "equal chance battle". If they don't, then... Well, let's put it this way. You need to have the right protection for an enemy's weapon. A shield will not hide you from poisonous gasses, and a gas mask won't protect from swords (to give a crude example). Saying this, the elves have a matching defense against at least one of the Balrog's weapons: their own spiritual/will power. That way, the victory is left to the better swordsman. Dwarves have a willpower of their own, but on a different level and in a different direction, if you get my meaning. The pieces don't match.

I take those to mean that Thorin simply didn't have the numbers for a flat-out assault on Smaug. Why not? Because a large number of the Erebor survivors had fled to the Iron Hills after Smaug's arrival. Why wouldn't they have flocked to him in the Ered Luin, if not because they didn't consider the possibility of a real dwarf-kingdom existing there again to be an option? Instead, they stayed close to the Lonely Mountain, the real kingdom of Thorin.

Very interesting. So, for Dwarves, the kingdom is even more important than the king? Thinking of Thror...

[Inziladun]

Very interesting. So, for Dwarves, the kingdom is even more important than the king? Thinking of Thror...

Indeed, maybe for the Dwarves wealth was an essential factor for a legitimate "kingdom". I recall Thrór, when giving the last of the Seven to Thráin, saying

'This may prove the foundation of new fortune for you yet, though that seems unlikely. But it needs gold to breed gold.'

ROTK Appendix A

[Kuruharan]

So in Middle-earth math, one Noldo > thousands of Dwarves?

I pretty much agree with what everyone else has said.

Why not? Because a large number of the Erebor survivors had fled to the Iron Hills after Smaug's arrival. Why wouldn't they have flocked to him in the Ered Luin, if not because they didn't consider the possibility of a real dwarf-kingdom existing there again to be an option? Instead, they stayed close to the Lonely Mountain, the real kingdom of Thorin.

Maybe they liked Dain better.

I also have the impression that many of the Longbeards were still in places in the Grey Mountains and other spots. Note what Bard and the Elvenking feared in the lead up to the Battle of Five Armies. They were afraid that greater and greater numbers of dwarves would show up. The only places close enough for this to matter to the military situation on the ground at that moment were the Grey Mountains (and possibly in the Mountains of Rhun). Why Thorin couldn't have gathered all of these dwarves that were seemingly in the area together to attempt to retake the mountain I don't know...unless perhaps the dwarves just didn't fancy him that much and liked Dain better.

[Inziladun]

Why Thorin couldn't have gathered all of these dwarves that were seemingly in the area together to attempt to retake the mountain I don't know...unless perhaps the dwarves just didn't fancy him that much and liked Dain better.

Granted Thorin does seem in many ways to exemplify the least (to other races, at least) qualities of the Dwarves, but he was still the Heir of Durin, eldest of all the Dwarven houses. Was he really that odious that his own people eschewed him in favour of his kin? If so, that doesn't seem to speak well for him.

[Kuruharan]

I don't know that "odious" is a good term, and yes he was the King of Durin's Folk. However, Dain appears, at least to my eyes, to be a more respected and rather more grounded individual.

And then there is the fact that he was the one who actually killed Azog which made him a hero at a young age. Thorin didn't have much (that we know of) in the way of accomplishments to compete with that.

Mostly at this point I am just throwing theories out to rationalize the choices Tolkien told in stories to his kids that he later incorporated into his larger mythos. ;)

[Alfirin]

There is also the fact that at no point are we told that sucession amoung the dwarves is stricly primogeneric, that is that the oldest son of the current (or most recent) ruler is ipso facto the heir to the throne. Given Tolkein's love of Nordic tradtions, I think it is possible he imagined Dwarven sucession more along Nordic lines, where (if I understand correctly) often any male member of the ruling family was considered a viable candidate for next kind, and getting the throne relied as much on whether or not the court and people wanted you as who your father was and when in the line of his kids you were born. Being the heir of Durin's bloodline may help Thorin's claim, but it may not be enough to make him Dwarf heir apparent on it's own.

[Inziladun]

To add a bit to what I was thinking earlier, about the Ered Luin lacking precious metals, and about the Dwarves' obsession with them, there's this from Appendix A, ROTK, that after the Battle of Azanulbizar:

Thráin and Thorin with what remained of their following (among whom were Balin and Glóin)....made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin beyond the Lune. Of iron were most of the things that they forged in those days, but they prospered after their fashion, and their numbers slowly increased. But, as Thrór had said, the Ring needed gold to breed gold, and of that or any other precious metal they had little or none.

Looks to me as if Thorin was just too poor to be taken seriously as a king in the Ered Luin.

[Kuruharan]

There is also the fact that at no point are we told that sucession amoung the dwarves is stricly primogeneric, that is that the oldest son of the current (or most recent) ruler is ipso facto the heir to the throne. Given Tolkein's love of Nordic tradtions, I think it is possible he imagined Dwarven sucession more along Nordic lines, where (if I understand correctly) often any male member of the ruling family was considered a viable candidate for next kind, and getting the throne relied as much on whether or not the court and people wanted you as who your father was and when in the line of his kids you were born. Being the heir of Durin's bloodline may help Thorin's claim, but it may not be enough to make him Dwarf heir apparent on it's own.

That is an interesting point. It seems very reasonable, particularly regarding the Nordic link.

However, to the best of my knowledge we know of no case where the eldest surviving son didn't follow his father...of course our knowledge is limited.

Looks to me as if Thorin was just too poor to be taken seriously as a king in the Ered Luin.

That sounds likely to be true.

[Puddleglum]

More likely, it was simply that there were not enough of a concentration of Durin's Dwarves present in the Erid Luin to constitute a "Kingdom."

First they had their mansions at Khazad-dum.
When driven out, Most of them followed Thrain I to Erebor, where they established their new kingdom Under The Mountain.
Then Thorin I removed to the Grey Mtns where "most of Durin's folk were <now> gathering."
Later, after Dain I was slain, "most of Durin's folk abandoned the Grey Mountains" and while many went to the Iron Hills, Thror and the rest of Durin's folk returned to Erebor.
After the coming of Smaug, it's an open question why Thror and the remnant didn't go to the Iron Hills - maybe fearing that Gror wouldn't have been happy to be displaced by Thror in his own home - maybe Thror was too proud to take over lordship in a place built up be someone else, especially his brother.
However, given that few escaped the sack of Erebor, and the Iron Hills dwarves likely weren't interested in uprooting to travel to poorer mines in the Ered Luin - especially as they were over 1200 miles away - Thror (and Thrain & Thorin) had only a few followers - not sufficient to say "this is our Kingdom".

Once, however, Thorin's quest was successful, the Iron Hills dwarves *were* willing to relocate to Erebor - only about 200 miles - and renew the Kingdom - Erebor being a far more worthy destination than simple "Iron Mines" in the Blue Mtns.

[Kuruharan]

Once, however, Thorin's quest was successful, the Iron Hills dwarves *were* willing to relocate to Erebor - only about 200 miles - and renew the Kingdom - Erebor being a far more worthy destination than simple "Iron Mines" in the Blue Mtns.

The general consensus, one which I agree with, is that the Iron Hills were not abandoned during this process so its not like someone couldn't stay there if they wanted to after Dain left.

[FlimFlamSam]

Kuruharan spoke: [However, to the best of my knowledge we know of no case where the eldest surviving son didn't follow his father...of course our knowledge is limited.]
I'm not so sure about that.

Balin, Lord of Moria. Not the son of a previous king.
In strict "eldest male relation to the last king" ascension, that would be Dain II as the "rightful heir" to Khazad-dum after Thorin II's death Would Fili and Kili count at all even if they had lived, considering the note concerning sister-son dwarves in the HOME Peoples of Middle-earth? Who knows.

Durin VII reclaimed Khazad-dum (as per HOME Peoples of Middle-earth son of Thorin III--and only "guessed at" in Lord of the Rings). He did not remain (if he even took the title) King Under the Mountain (Erebor).

[Mithalwen]

But Lord isn't the same as King. He can be lord of Moria and still be a loyal subject of Dain. Rather as the Princes of Dol Amroth ruled their land as afiefdom of Gondor - even in the absence of the King they seem to be subject to the Stewards - Imrahil only takes nominal charge in the power vacuum left by Denethor.

[Galadriel55]

Moreover, Balin was Lord of Moria, not Erebor.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Returning to the original question, the most complete discussions of Thorin's years of exile are in HME XII and UT. Forgive the long quotations: brevity will have to cede its place to completeness.

[A discussion of Thorin and Thráin's parts in the Battle of Nanduhirion precedes this passage.]

Thus [Thorin] got his name, or also because in memory of this he bore ever after at his back a shield made of oak wood without colour or device, and vowed to do so until he was hailed again as king.

When Thráin went away Thorin was 95, a great dwarf of proud bearing and full manhood. Maybe because rid of the Ring, Thorin long remained in Ered Luin, labouring and journeying and gathering such wealth as he could, until his people had fair houses in the hills and were not [? ill content], though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain and the wealth and bliss of the Great Hall and the light of the Arkenstone. But the years lengthened, and the embers of his heart began to grow hot as Thorin brooded on the wrongs of his house and people. Remembering too that Thrór had lain upon him the vengeance due to Smaug.

But Erebor was far away and his people only few; and he had little hope that Dáin Ironfoot would help in any attempt upon the dragon. For Thorin thought ever after the manner of his kingly forefathers, counting forces and weapons and the chances of war, as his hammer fell on the red iron in his forge.

The Peoples of Middle-Earth (HME XII), p.281

Typescript B of the early version of this tale as given in UT follows essentially the same story.

So Thorin Oakenshield became the Heir of Durin, but an heir without hope. At the sack of Erebor he had been too young to bear arms, but at Azanulbizar he had fought in the van of the assault; and when Thráin was lost he was ninety-five, a great Dwarf of proud bearing. He had no Ring, and (for that reason maybe) he seemed content to remain in Eriador. There he laboured long, and gained such wealth as he could; and his people were increased by many of the wandering folk of Durin that heard of his dwelling and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains, and store of goods, and their days did not seem so hard, though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain far away, and the treasure and bliss of the Great Hall in the light of the Arkenstone.

The years lengthened. The embers in the heart of Thorin grew hot again, as he brooded on the wrongs of his House and of the vengeance upon the Dragon that was bequeathed to him. He thought of weapons and armies and alliances, as his great hammer rang in the forge; but the armies were dispersed and the alliances were broken and the axes of his people were few; and a great anger without hope burned him, as he smote the red iron on the anvil.

UT p.328

It's fairly obvious, even had we not Christopher Tolkien's word for it, that these passages are quite closely related. Indeed, the second is a reworded and condensed version of the first that changes no significant detail. The main point appears to be that the recovery of Erebor remains Thorin's chief concern. He takes the extraordinary step of displaying no emblem on his shield until he can recover his grandfather's kingdom; he broods on a desire to recover it by open war, but we are reminded that his people are too few and his alliances too unreliable for this to be possible. Gandalf even reminds him elsewhere in The Quest of Erebor that an army of Dwarves would have to face worse enemies than Smaug before they reached Erebor, even if such a force could be gathered at all.

It seems, then, that the Ered Luin and, indeed Eriador in general, are simply temporary homes to Thorin; convenient places to build up his wealth and following until an assault on Smaug can be mounted. To declare himself king of the Blue Mountains would in a way be an admission that he had given up the idea of reclaiming the Lonely Mountain. It seems fairly clear to me that he is uninterested in any other title, and no doubt bound up with this is the theme of the duty of vengeance that Tolkien stresses so forcefully. Thorin has an hereditary blood feud with Smaug, which is a more serious obligation even than reclaiming the kingdom of his ancestors. To take for himself any other lordship would be at best a distraction from his chief purpose.

And when I think about it, was it really beyond the powers of a large force of Dwarves, say the size of the army at the Battle of Nanduhirion, to have destroyed one Balrog? After all, one Elf accomplished just that twice in Gondolin.

I think we need to be very careful when comparing the old Fall of Gondolin material with LR. Tolkien's conception of the individual strength of the Balrogs changed a great deal in the twenty years or so that separate them. Regardless of the possibility of killing Durin's bane, however, there are at least two reasons why the survivors of Nanduhirion would not have faced him.

The first reason is one of motive. As the unnamed survivors themselves declare: "We fought this war for vengeance, and vengeance we have taken. But it is not sweet. If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it." [1] The Dwarves at Nanduhirion all had homes to go to; they were not in a position to undertake a long occupation of Moria. It was more than they signed up to do.

Hinted at in these words is the second reason: the battle of Azanulbizar was characterised by heavy losses on both sides. It's likely that the Dwarven survivors were too few and too exhausted to face something like a Balrog, even had they wanted to take back Moria.

As regards the succession of Durin, Dáin is not only the most obvious, but possibly the only heir. He is the eldest remaining member of the senior line of descent, and he has an army at his back. Given the information available I can't think of someone better qualified, and Dwarves are nothing if not practical.

***

[1] LR Appendix A, p.1049

[Kuruharan]

and he had little hope that Dáin Ironfoot would help in any attempt upon the dragon

The length of time since I'd seriously read the Tolkien background materials starts to show. I'd forgotten that particular line.

I find it interesting in light of the earlier conversation regarding Dain and Thorin.

I read that line to say even if Thorin appeared in the Iron Hills one day and said to Dain, "What ho, old bean! Time to rally the troops to take out that nasty, overgrown lizard, what, what!" Dain would have said something to the effect of, "No." I wonder whether Dain would have thought the whole enterprise insane or if he thought Thorin would make a botch of it.

At this point I would also freely speculate about the nature of dwarven kingship shown by Dain's ability to refuse Thorin...but I think it didn't have much to do with the formalities of the dwarven monarchy and more to do with the realpolitik of Thorin being unable to force Dain to go.

[Formendacil]

A scenario occurs to me in all this that is interesting, and only moderately tangential. What if Thorin had not managed to retake Erebor? Let us suppose, perhaps, that Thorin & Co. failed, that Bilbo was not able to tell the thrush about Smaug's weakspot, and the son of Thráin died with all his company on the slopes of the Lonely Mountain. Or what if Thorin had never run into Gandalf and been able to put together a plan and company--a situation where he would die lonely and embittered in his Blue Mountain home--what then?

Well, we know that Thorin was childless, and that Dáin Ironfoot was his direct heir (Fíli and Kíli, of course, were his sister-sons my read on Dwarven succession is that it was more Salic than the French). What then? I can't see Dáin travelling to the Blue Mountains to "inherit" Thorin's smithy there--not when he had a much more impressive lordship in the Iron Hills. Nor can I see him refusing any title save that of King Under the Mountain--and I agree with Squatter's assessment that this was the ONLY title Thorin was interested in pursuing. It seems more than likely to me, therefore, that had Smaug not been taken out and the mountain reclaimed when it was, that Dáin would have been the first "King of the Iron Hills."

It also strikes me that the biggest difference between Thorin and Dáin in this respect is not Thorin's intractability vs. Dáin's pragmatism (though this *is* an element); rather, I think it has to do with their ages. Thorin remembered Erebor. What is more, he remembered Erebor specifically as the son of the son of the King Under the Mountain, as the dwarf who, barring Smaug and/or premature death, was raised to expect that he would someday be King Under the Mountain himself. Dáin, on the other hand, was younger--if my memory serves, he was young enough that he would not remember Erebor. In any case, he probably didn't live there, since his grandfather, Grór, moved to the Iron Hills, where Dáin and his father would both eventually rule.

Consequently, Dáin's memory of the House of Durin was not the same as Thorin's--that is to say, it was not bound up with the Kingship of Erebor. Certainly, we know that once he became king, his memory of the kingship did not hinged on the possession of Khazad-dûm. Looking back historically, it makes one wonder what the Lords of the Longbeards called themselves after Durin VI and Náin I died at the hands of the Balrog. Did Thráin I and his son, Thorin I, call themselves Kings of Moria?

Although Thráin I settled in Erebor and found the Arkenstone there, I doubt he called himself "King Under the Mountain"--and if he did, it doesn't seem to have stuck, since his son Thorin I decided that the Grey Mountains were just as good a place to live as Erebor. My analysis of this situation is the Heirs of Durin after the loss of Moria were just as "lost" as Thrór, Thráin II, and Thorin II after the loss of Erebor.

Indeed, after Glóin, Óin, Náin II, and Dáin I ruled in the Grey Mountains, it seems to me to have been a very fortunate thing for Thrór that he was able to "return" to Erebor after the dragons drove his people out of the Grey Mountains, else the Kingdom Under the Mountain might not have ever been really established at all. Instead, he might have gone with his brother, Grór, to the Iron Hills and pined about the loss of the Grey Mountains.

On that note, I think it's also worth noting that the loss of the Grey Mountains before Erebor was probably on Thrór's mind a lot after the loss of Erebor as well, and might have engendered a thirst for vengeance in his line to fall back again, but to toe the line against evil things and retake Erebor or die trying.

[Inziladun]

Nice post, Form.

Although Thráin I settled in Erebor and found the Arkenstone there, I doubt he called himself "King Under the Mountain"--and if he did, it doesn't seem to have stuck, since his son Thorin I decided that the Grey Mountains were just as good a place to live as Erebor. My analysis of this situation is the Heirs of Durin after the loss of Moria were just as "lost" as Thrór, Thráin II, and Thorin II after the loss of Erebor.

Looking more closely at it, I wonder if the Longbeards, being the people of Durin, might not have been the only Dwarves to have a "king", and maybe that weighed on them all the more heavily when Khazad-dûm, and later Erebor, were lost.

In The Silmarillion, the only Dwarven cities we see are Nogrod and Belegost.
Interestingly, they don't seem to be referred to as "kingdoms", and their leaders not as "kings".

One [pearl] there was as great as a dove's egg....the chieftain of the Dwarves of Belegost prized it above a mountain of wealth. Of the Sindar

And later, at the Nirnaeth, the dragon Glaurung was wounded by Dwarves, and
in his rage Glaurung turned and struck down Azaghâl, Lord of Belegost. Of the Fifth Battle

After the sack of Doriath by the Dwarves of Nogrod, and their subsequent ambush in Ossiriand, Beren
himself slew the Lord of Nogrod.

The Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, of course, were not of the Longbeards.

In additon, the Ring inscription said "Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone."

So, maybe actual Dwarven kingship was reserved for those of the line of Durin, which certainly could have influenced Thorin in not declaring himself king of a relatively small people in the Ered Luin.

[Kuruharan]

Dáin, on the other hand, was younger--if my memory serves, he was young enough that he would not remember Erebor. In any case, he probably didn't live there, since his grandfather, Grór, moved to the Iron Hills, where Dáin and his father would both eventually rule.

I'm quite tired right now so I will limit my comment to one thing.

I didn't think Dain's family were ever in Erebor. I thought that at least since around the time of the fall of Khazad-dum they had been in the Iron Hills.

I may be mistaken about this.

More to come.

[Formendacil]

I'm quite tired right now so I will limit my comment to one thing.

I didn't think Dain's family were ever in Erebor. I thought that at least since around the time of the fall of Khazad-dum they had been in the Iron Hills.

I may be mistaken about this.

More to come.

I think you might be placing Dáin's place in the line of Durin at far more distaff position than it properly occupies. He was son of Náin, who was son of Grór, who was the son of King Dáin I, who ruled in the Grey Mountains--and since Thrór was the elder brother of Grór, Dáin's lineage is the same as Thorin's before that. Indeed, if Dáin's family line had diverged from Thorin's before the fall of Moria, then Balin, Dwalin, Óin, Glóin, and Gimli (at least) would have had prior claims on the Kingdom Under the Mountain.

I'm almost positive that "Dwarves and Men" says that the Longbeards colonised the Iron Hills (and most of the Grey and Misty Mountains between there and Moria) long before the fall of Khazad-dûm, but Dáin's patrilineal ancestors could not have lived there before his grandfather, because it wasn't until Grór that his ancestors weren't Kings of Durin's line.

So... while I agree that Dáin's family (but only Dáin's family insofar as it is distinct from Thorin Oakenshield's) was never associated with Erebor, and while it is true that the Longbeards were associated with the Iron Hills almost since time immemorial, Dáin's family history there doesn't go back QUITE as far as that.

[Kuruharan]

I think you might be placing Dáin's place in the line of Durin at far more distaff position than it properly occupies. He was son of Náin, who was son of Grór, who was the son of King Dáin I, who ruled in the Grey Mountains--and since Thrór was the elder brother of Grór, Dáin's lineage is the same as Thorin's before that. Indeed, if Dáin's family line had diverged from Thorin's before the fall of Moria, then Balin, Dwalin, Óin, Glóin, and Gimli (at least) would have had prior claims on the Kingdom Under the Mountain.

I'm almost positive that "Dwarves and Men" says that the Longbeards colonised the Iron Hills (and most of the Grey and Misty Mountains between there and Moria) long before the fall of Khazad-dûm, but Dáin's patrilineal ancestors could not have lived there before his grandfather, because it wasn't until Grór that his ancestors weren't Kings of Durin's line.

So... while I agree that Dáin's family (but only Dáin's family insofar as it is distinct from Thorin Oakenshield's) was never associated with Erebor, and while it is true that the Longbeards were associated with the Iron Hills almost since time immemorial, Dáin's family history there doesn't go back QUITE as far as that.

That is quite correct. Thank you for setting me straight on that.

Looking more closely at it, I wonder if the Longbeards, being the people of Durin, might not have been the only Dwarves to have a "king", and maybe that weighed on them all the more heavily when Khazad-dûm, and later Erebor, were lost.

-and-

So, maybe actual Dwarven kingship was reserved for those of the line of Durin

Very interesting theory. I can't find any textual evidence against it although I'm not inclined to agree with it.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

I seem to remember that in the Appendices mention is made of dwarves living in the Ered Luin in the Fourth Age. It might well be that their permanent settlements there throughout history had hereditary rulers who were not of Durin's house.

[Inziladun]

I seem to remember that in the Appendices mention is made of dwarves living in the Ered Luin in the Fourth Age. It might well be that their permanent settlements there throughout history had hereditary rulers who were not of Durin's house.

I would guess you're referring to this from Appendix A , "Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur":

But Dwarves dwelt, and still dwell, in the east side of the Blue Mountains, especially in those parts south of the Gulf of Lune, where they have mines that are still in use.

The cities of Nogrod and Belegost, certainly, were not of the Longbeards.

However, after the end of the First Age, I don't recall any mention of Dwarves having established settlements there prior to Thorin's colony being established in T.A. 2802 (TOY).

It was said, also in Appendix A, that when the Witch-king overran Arthedain in T.A. 1974, that King Arvedui took shelter "in the old dwarf-mines near the far end of the Mountains". Since his next act was to seek aid from the Snowmen of Forochel, it seems clear those mines were near the northern end of the Mountains, and were not occupied.

The first reference above to mines being in the south of the Mountains, might simply refer to Thorin's settlement. At any rate, I think it unlikely Thorin would have gone to the Ered Luin and founded his own settlement if other Dwarves were already established there.

[Andsigil]

Why didn't Thorin just crown himself King of the Blue Mountains while he was there? Was there some sort of wealth level requirement that had to be satisfied before he could do that? Were the Blue Mountains just too ghetto for any self-respecting dwarf to want to have his kingdom there?

I am curious because before the dwarves didn't seem to have any particular objection to setting up new homelands as the need arose. When they were driven out of Khazad-dum, they went to the Lonely Mountain, to the Grey Mountains and back again but after they were driven out of Erebor no other place than Erebor seemed good enough.

I am curious as to why.

I haven't read the other replies yet, so someone might have covered this already.

If I remember correctly, Thorin and Co were described as scratching a rather meager living in the Blue Mountains. I would imagine that most of the dwarves lived under the same conditions, and this would be a pretty poor foundation for a new kingdom compared to the wealth that lay at Erebor.

I would also add that there is an undeniable and powerful mystique about returning to one's roots. It is a sociological drive which we have seen many times in history (how many times have people tried to resurrect the Roman Empire?) and which continues today (the Jews of Israel).

[Kuruharan]

It is a sociological drive which we have seen many times in history

Very interesting point you bring up there.

[Kuruharan]

This will be a long bit of background so bear with me...

I was ruminating about the fate of the seven rings and where those rings might have been bestowed. Thinking of the fate of the Broadbeams and Firebeards and their potential merger with the Longbeards, If the peoples had merged, I wondered if two of the rings might have been given to great lords of the Longbeards in addition to the king.

While this might be an idea worthy of its own topic, I discarded it because the Longbeards in the books that referenced the rings never gave any indication that more than one ring was ever given to Durin's Folk. My other thought (more based on the nature of the rings and their maker than anything) is that more than one ring would not co-exist with another well in the same realm.

Thrown back upon the original notion of the rings were given to the leaders of the seven dwarf peoples, it was thus inescapable that all seven peoples survived to some extent as independent entities.

How does all this relate to this topic?

My thought now turns to what Pitchwife said in post #3...

Off the top of my head, maybe there already was a Dwarven King of the Blue Mountains when Thorin came there.

Maybe that was exactly it. Maybe since the Kings of the Broadbeams and Firebeards were already in the remains of the Blue Mountains it would be considered very rude indeed for Thorin to make himself a king there since he might have been there in some sense as a guest. This might also explain why the Longbeards there were in a relatively resource poor area, the surviving Broadbeams and Firebeards were living in the surviving better areas.

I'm not proposing that significant populations of Broadbeams and Firebeards existed, but that their royal lineages did and there were enough remaining members to sustain distinct communities. Tolkien nowhere said all dwarves abandonded the Blue Mountains after the First Age, just "most."

Or maybe there were more survivors than we might think since the remains of the Blue Mountains were in the sleepiest part of Middle-earth where nothing ever happened and there was little reason to describe goings on there again.

[Inziladun]

I'm not proposing that significant populations of Broadbeams and Firebeards existed, but that their royal lineages did and there were enough remaining members to sustain distinct communities. Tolkien nowhere said all dwarves abandonded the Blue Mountains after the First Age, just "most."

I'm inclined to think that if there were remnants of the other Dwarven lines in the Ered Luin in the Third Age, they were so small as to be really just settlements, nothing as grand as kingdoms.
Since Thorin's line was of the Longbeards, making him Durin's heir, I doubt Dwarves of other houses would have had much of a problem sharing the mountains with his own relatively small people.

[Kuruharan]

I'm inclined to think that if there were remnants of the other Dwarven lines in the Ered Luin in the Third Age, they were so small as to be really just settlements, nothing as grand as kingdoms.

Undoubtedly not, but they were still in the mountain range where they awoke which would perhaps provide something of a confidence boost. Perhaps the leaders of the Broadbeams and Firebeards never left...in fact, I would suspect they did not.

Since Thorin's line was of the Longbeards, making him Durin's heir, I doubt Dwarves of other houses would have had much of a problem sharing the mountains with his own relatively small people.

Sharing, they clearly had no problem with that. However, making a new "kingdom" there might have been something they would object to.

[Inziladun]

Sharing, they clearly had no problem with that. However, making a new "kingdom" there might have been something they would object to.

Since Thorin's settlement was referred to at least twice in ROTK Appendix A as a state of 'exile', maybe that knowledge that Erebor was the true kingdom for him would have kept Thorin from taking a formal kingship until the Lonely Mountain was regained.

Also, in UT The Quest of Erebor, Gandalf reports that he told Thorin:

'Your own ideas are those of a king, Thorin Oakenshield; but your kingdom is gone.'

That too would suggest that whatever Thorin had in the Ered Luin, he did not consider a kingdom.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The king of Nogrod had been killed by Beren before the First Age ended. In fact, between the Green-Elves and the Ents, the host of Nogrod was "destroyed utterly" which at least suggests that all male Dwarves of fighting age, including the royal family, were wiped out.

[Narnil]

I am pretty sure that somewhere Tolkien said that all land north of the river Lune's first tributary from the Blue Mountains was dwarf land and remained dwarf land throughout much of Middle-Earth's history. I can't find teh quote but I know it was from Dwarfs and Men in vol 12 of HoMe

[Kuruharan]

The king of Nogrod had been killed by Beren before the First Age ended. In fact, between the Green-Elves and the Ents, the host of Nogrod was "destroyed utterly" which at least suggests that all male Dwarves of fighting age, including the royal family, were wiped out.

I don't disagree with the statement, but I disagree with the implication. ;)

Fighting age does not equal every age. If the experience of Gimli regarding Thorin's expedition is any guide (and I see no reason why it wouldn't be) the younger male dwarves would not have gone on the expedition to sack Doriath, this would include any younger males of the royal family, which would have been a bit more of a priority to ensure there was at least one survivor. In fact, it should be presumed to have been such a priority that we should assume that an arrangement like this would be made.

That the population of the Firebeards was permanently crippled is not at issue. The point is that this does not equal extinction.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Yes, I see what you're saying.

I think really we have another bit of Tolkien creating a bind for himself that he never cleared up, if he even noticed the problem at all. The Seven Rings appeared, almost ex nihilo, in the Ring-verse. The idea of the "Seven Houses of the Dwarves" came rather later but was, I'm pretty sure, derived from it; it made sense and still does that Sauron gave a ring to each Dwarf-king.

The problem came, as so many did, from trying to ret-con the new material into the existing legendarium, and the incompatibility of having seven dwarf-kingdoms in the Second Age but two major ones from the old legendarium which going by the LR weren't there any more. There isn't any real solution except by artificial rationalization, and unlike Tolkien we don't get to re-write anything.

And then there is something of a how-de-do with the idea that four, count 'em, four of the Dwarf-rings were lost to dragon fire. There are certain geographical problems posed by that.

[Kuruharan]

Yes, I see what you're saying.

I think really we have another bit of Tolkien creating a bind for himself that he never cleared up,

Yup, but half the fun of being a Tolkien fan is trying to figure out ways to make all the inconsistencies make some kind of rational sense.

There isn't any real solution except by artificial rationalization

Again, half the fun...and I think the ideas presented make sense.

And then there is something of a how-de-do with the idea that four, count 'em, four of the Dwarf-rings were lost to dragon fire. There are certain geographical problems posed by that.

Possibly, but not necessarily. It is true that it is almost essential to assume that the four rings eaten by dragons were the ones of the eastern houses. However, perhaps dragons were more active and widespread in eastern Middle-earth. That, in fact, might be used as a piece of evidence to support such an assertion.

Another question is, how did the news get out? I'm assuming the dwarves would have spread the word eventually as time passed.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Alternative ret-con: one of the Blue Mountain royal houses relocated (perhaps after a stint in Moria) to the Grey Mountains, like Thrain to Erebor. Some time after, reptilian flammenwerfer, dwarvecue and so on.


-------------------------------------------

perhaps dragons were more active and widespread in eastern Middle-earth. That, in fact, might be used as a piece of evidence to support such an assertion.

Hobbit Ch. 1- Bilbo claimed he was willing to "walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms of the Last Desert"*

*revised text. 1st ed, "Gobi desert"

[Formendacil]

Fact: Sauron gave seven Rings of Power to Dwarf-kings.

Fact: There were seven ancestral houses of Dwarves.

Only Speculation: The seven "Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone" who received the seven Rings corresponded one-to-one to the seven different Dwarf-tribes.



Fact: By the time of the Rings' forging, at least one Dwarf-house (Nogrod) and possibly two (Belegost) were greatly weakened.

(Related question: from simple geography, how likely is it that Sauron, in the years after the destruction of Eregion and the theft of the the work of the Mirdain, went anywhere near the Blue Mountains, so close to Lindon?)

Fact: Dwarves in the Second Age could have more than one kingdom--or, at least, more than one outpost. The Longbeards ruled the Misty Mountains from Moria to Gundabad, and across the Grey Mountains, with an outpost colony in the Iron Hills. Who is to say that the four Dwarf-tribes of the East did not have multiple kingdoms? In the earlier Ages of their greatest fecundity, why couldn't the Dwarves had spread to found more than seven ancestral houses?

We know, at the very least, that the Rings of Power given to the "kings of Men" could not have all gone to literal Kings, because three of them went to Númenóreans, none of whom were Kings of Númenor. The possibility for a similar sort of analogy seems to me to be at least potentially in play here.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Slight correction: the Ring-verse says Dwarf-lords, not kings, and everywhere else that I can think of to look it just says "to the Dwarves" without specifying kings.

--------------------

Query: if the regal heirs of Nogrod and Belegost survived the War of Wrath, did they go to Moria with the "many" of their people who migrated there? Were they content to be powerless and rather resentful guests of the House of Durin?

[Zigûr]

I always assumed that two of the seven were given to the successors of the rulers of Belegost and Nogrod who by then lived in Moria, but I suppose they simply could have been afforded to powerful Dwarves in general.

Given the Dwarves' limited numbers, however, and the fact that the royal line of the Longbeards was afforded a Ring, one wonders if any other Rings were concealed in the West at all, or if all the other six were in the East where the Dwarves appear to have been more numerous, at least at one time.

[Kuruharan]

(Related question: from simple geography, how likely is it that Sauron, in the years after the destruction of Eregion and the theft of the the work of the Mirdain, went anywhere near the Blue Mountains, so close to Lindon?)

I read an idea somewhere (it may have been Michael Martinez's site) that the Dwarf rings were distributed by Sauron or one of his agents at one of the dwarven conclaves at Gundabad. This idea has much to recommend it, I think.

Fact: Dwarves in the Second Age could have more than one kingdom--or, at least, more than one outpost. The Longbeards ruled the Misty Mountains from Moria to Gundabad, and across the Grey Mountains, with an outpost colony in the Iron Hills. Who is to say that the four Dwarf-tribes of the East did not have multiple kingdoms? In the earlier Ages of their greatest fecundity, why couldn't the Dwarves had spread to found more than seven ancestral houses?

A valid point.

I will say that the idea multiplies things into the point of imagination. Also, the Longbeards only ever spoke of being given one ring even though they were widely dispersed at the time. A similar thing may have been at play in the other houses.

We know, at the very least, that the Rings of Power given to the "kings of Men" could not have all gone to literal Kings, because three of them went to Númenóreans, none of whom were Kings of Númenor. The possibility for a similar sort of analogy seems to me to be at least potentially in play here.

That is a very good point.

Slight correction: the Ring-verse says Dwarf-lords, not kings, and everywhere else that I can think of to look it just says "to the Dwarves" without specifying kings.

Another idea that maybe needs its own topic...

Tolkien was not systematic at all in his use of the term "lord." He used it indiscriminately to refer to any and all authority figures from high to low. Théoden was referred to as "Lord of Rohan" even though we know he was king. Durin the whichever was referred to as "Lord of Moria" (translating the word "Aran" from the West Gate) and we know that the Durins were kings. In fact, it is my belief that "aran" usually translates as "king."

Tolkien was so erratic in his use of the word that I don't think it can be used to build much of a case for anything.

Query: if the regal heirs of Nogrod and Belegost survived the War of Wrath, did they go to Moria with the "many" of their people who migrated there? Were they content to be powerless and rather resentful guests of the House of Durin?

My belief is they would have stayed in the Blue Mountains. I will cite Thorin as support for my argument. He always wanted to get back to Erebor. In fact, the Longbeards in general wanted to get back to Moria. Nogrod and Belegost may themselves have been destroyed but I think some of their survivors would have wanted to stay close to them and I think the leaders in particular would have been most likely to do so.

Given the Dwarves' limited numbers, however, and the fact that the royal line of the Longbeards was afforded a Ring, one wonders if any other Rings were concealed in the West at all, or if all the other six were in the East where the Dwarves appear to have been more numerous, at least at one time.

That is another possible idea.

[Mithadan]

I read an idea somewhere (it may have been Michael Martinez's site) that the Dwarf rings were distributed by Sauron or one of his agents at one of the dwarven conclaves at Gundabad.

I have not looked at Peoples of Middle Earth in some time. I recall that volume mentioning that Durin (the first) woke in Gundabad but do not recall any mention that Gundabad was a place where the Longbeards actually lived as a race. Nor do I recall any mention of enclaves there. This, of course, does not mean that there is some mention of these matters. I just do not recall.

Given the timeframe, the Rings were distributed in the Second Age, if there was an enclave of Dwarves or their "lords", isn't it more likely that it took place in Khazad Dum, the greatest of the mansions of that race, rather than Gundabad.

[Inziladun]

Given the timeframe, the Rings were distributed in the Second Age, if there was an enclave of Dwarves or their "lords", isn't it more likely that it took place in Khazad Dum, the greatest of the mansions of that race, rather than Gundabad.

I think textual information supports this idea.

The Tale of Years indicates that in S.A c. 40 "Many Dwarves leaving their old cities in Ered Luin go to Moria and swell its numbers".

Since the Rings of Power were not completed until after the first millennium of the Age, one would think Moria's population would be even greater by then, and, as the seat of power for the Longbeards, it would have been the Mecca of the Dwarves as a whole.

The Dwarves of the Blue Mountains going to Moria would also lead me to think that there were nothing like the old kingdoms of Nogrod and Belegost remaining, with the remnant Dwarven population having a mind to go someplace more prosperous.

[Kuruharan]

I have not looked at Peoples of Middle Earth in some time. I recall that volume mentioning that Durin (the first) woke in Gundabad but do not recall any mention that Gundabad was a place where the Longbeards actually lived as a race. Nor do I recall any mention of enclaves there. This, of course, does not mean that there is some mention of these matters. I just do not recall.

I found the reference.

Though these four points were far sundered the Dwarves of different kindreds were in communication, and in the early ages often held assemblies of delegates at Mount Gundabad.
-Of Dwarves and Men

"Early ages" is an ambiguous phrase, but I think the Second Age would still qualify as an early age.

Since the Rings of Power were not completed until after the first millennium of the Age, one would think Moria's population would be even greater by then, and, as the seat of power for the Longbeards, it would have been the Mecca of the Dwarves as a whole.

I think Gundabad probably was more the "Mecca" of the dwarves in literally a more religious sense. I don't think it was necessarily a major settlement in terms of population but I think we have to assume some dwarves did indeed live there until its fall.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Another idea that maybe needs its own topic...

Tolkien was not systematic at all in his use of the term "lord." He used it indiscriminately to refer to any and all authority figures from high to low. Théoden was referred to as "Lord of Rohan" even though we know he was king. Durin the whichever was referred to as "Lord of Moria" (translating the word "Aran" from the West Gate) and we know that the Durins were kings. In fact, it is my belief that "aran" usually translates as "king."

Tolkien was so erratic in his use of the word that I don't think it can be used to build much of a case for anything.

No more erratic than Shakespeare, who freely used "lord" for kings; more fairly stated, though, is simply that in the Early Modern English usage Tolkien employed, "lord" as a category included "king." Even on Sunday, the Eternal King of Kings is called Lord!

I'm not however trying to split so fine a hair; I'm just saying that nothing in what Tolkien wrote says necessarily that the recipients of the Seven all had to be kings, some could, at least grammatically, have been lesser Dwarven nobles. (Balin claimed the title Lord of Moria, too; unfortunately Tolkien never defined the title uzbad for us!)

----------------

Yes, aran = "king." It is the title Elessar uses in the Sindarin translation of the King's Letter to Sam (Elessar Telcontar: Aragorn Arathornion Edhelharn, aran Gondor); cf. Fornost Erain "Norbury of the kings" and Ereinion "scion of kings." Gandalf was a loose translator! (The usual Sindarin for "lord" was hîr , as in Rohirrim "horse-lords" and our stubby Durinian friends Gonhirrim "stone-lords." Elessar's titles go on "... aran Gondor ar Arnor ar Hîr iMbair Annui", Lord of the Westlands.)

[Faramir Jones]

I agree with William that Tolkien used 'lord' both as a formal title for and a mode of address to rulers and their immediate family. It was also used as a general term for 'ruler' regardless of the ruler's title. For example, Theoden spoke about the distance to Minas Tirith where 'Denethor is lord'. When he died in battle and Denethor committed suicide on the same day, there was a mention of Gondor and Rohan being without their 'lords'. No distinction was made there between Denethor as a steward and Theoden as a king.

Looking at The Hobbit, it doesn't appear that Thorin called himself king until after being told that Smaug was dead, therefore being assured that the Mountain and the treasure was his; and he was addressing the army of Lake-men and Wood-elves who came north to the Mountain. Earlier, for example, when he first met the Lake-men, he only (and carefully) referred to himself as the grandson, through Thrain, of Thror, the last acknowledged King under the Mountain.