“Thee” and “thou” in “The Lord of the Rings”

[Estelyn Telcontar]

“Thee” and “thou” are virtually obsolete in modern English, and have been for well over a century at least. Therefore Tolkien’s use of this second person pronoun in several passages of his story is anachronistic and commanded my attention while reading. I asked myself: Why did he choose it, who said it, and what significance does it have?

On this international forum, a word of explanation may be needed. Native speakers of English and some other languages have only one second person pronoun to use when addressing others: in English, “you”. Other languages, such as German and French, have two different pronouns, one for formal usage, the other for informal, familiar usage. The formal pronoun is used for strangers, elders, and persons of respect. The familiar pronoun is used for family, equals, children, and as a sign of disrespect.

If we encounter “thee”, “thou”, “thy”, “thine” etc. in English, it is only in old literature – spoken usage is, for all practical purposes, extinct. Most likely we hear it in Shakespeare’s plays or when the King James Bible is read. That’s why its connotation has changed – originally, “you” was the formal personal pronoun, and “thee” was familiar. To us nowadays, “thee” sounds antiquated and therefore formal, so it no longer carries the meaning it once had, of a close relationship between speaker and listener.

Three passages, all of them in RotK, have a particularly significant use of the pronoun. (There are a few other examples which we can discuss later on, if enough are interested.) The first one is found in “The Passing of the Grey Company”, in two conversations that take place between Éowyn and Aragorn before he takes the Paths of the Dead. At first, she uses the normal “you” as they speak of more general issues and of herself. But then, when she begs him not to go, she uses “thee”: ‘Neither have those others who go with thee. They go only because they would not be parted from thee – because they love thee.’ And on the next morning: ‘Aragorn, wilt thou go? ... Then wilt thou not let me ride with this company, as I have asked? ... I beg thee!’ Aragorn, however, does not use the familiar pronoun, but answers with “you”.

I get the feeling that Éowyn is so overcome by her love and concern for Aragorn that she perhaps inadvertantly uses the familiar pronoun. Her speech betrays the secret of her heart – unintentionally or in the only way she can find to let him know how she feels. This is the “Du”* of a lover, attempting to bridge the distance between herself and the one she loves.

How do you feel when you read this passage? Did you notice Éowyn’s choice of words, and what did you think about it? If you are not a native English speaker, does your translation of the book make this distinction? If so, how does it affect your perception of the passage?


(The other two passages will follow within the next day or two.)


*German familiar personal pronoun

[Selmo]

I get the feeling that Éowyn is so overcome by her love and concern for Aragorn that she perhaps inadvertantly uses the familiar pronoun. Her speech betrays the secret of her heart – unintentionally or in the only way she can find to let him know how she feels.

Estelyn, I think you're right about Eowyn's use of the familiar pronoun.

However, you're wrong about the demise of such things in the English language.
I live just a little to the north of Birmingham, where Tolkien grew up, and my local dialect is similar to the language of that area. In conversation between family and friends we still use familiar pronouns, though when I speak, "thee" sounds more like "thay" and "thine" comes out as "tharn".

The old forms are alive and well in the UK's regional dialects.
.

[Galadriel]

I do believe that our dear professor wanted his books to have an ancient feel (or sound!) to them. Personally, I would have liked his works less if he had not done it that way.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for the additional information, Selmo! I'd read that but never experienced it, which accounts for not really believing it, I guess. ;)

Galadriel, I understand what you're saying, but my point was that the archaic form is not something that is used throughout the book, but just in such isolated cases that it makes me look twice.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I just looked at what Hammond and Scull have to say about this passage in their LotR Reader's Companion:Éowyn began this conversation with Aragorn using formal you, your, but here pointedly changes to the intimate thee, expressing her feelings. When their conversation resumes the next day, she continues to use thee, thou, but Aragorn consistently addresses her with you, your, painfully polite.
I hadn't read that before posting my thoughts, so I'm delighted to hear that the experts agree with me! ;)

[Galadriel55]

Nice find, Esty! Fut the "thee" that always brought my attention was this one:

Then Eowyn looked in the eyes of Aragorn, and she said: "Wish me joy, my liege-lord and healer!"
And he answered: "I have wished thee joy ever since first I saw thee. It heals my heart to see thee now in bliss."

Quite the reverse here! Eowyn is being formal, and Aragorn is showing that they are closer than she thinks.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ah, very nice find, Gal55! I hadn't realized that this passage rounds off the ones I quoted! I like that very much!

The Reader's Companion points to Kocher's Master of Middle-earth, Chapter "Aragorn": It is symptomatic of his [Aragorn's] ease that he now dares use to her the familiar 'thee' with which she addressed him in her wooing but which he avoided in addressing her. Never has Tolkien looked into the human heart to better purpose than in this inset tale of Éowyn and Aragorn.
Now that Aragorn is (safely! ;) ) married to Arwen, and no longer fears waking false hopes in Éowyn, (who is also now 'safely' in other hands) he comes full circle and shows that he cares deeply for her, though not as she formerly wished him to love her.

I do like this story of unrequited love.

[Inziladun]

If Éowyn's use of the archaic forms is due to an emotional outbreak, what does that say for some of the other uses?

There are many examples in Denethor's final speech to Gandalf:

'With the left hand thus wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.
But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool!'

And later with the Mouth of Sauron:

'Then thou art the spokesman, old greybeard? Have we not heard of thee at whiles, and of thy wanderings, ever hatching plots and mischief at a safe distance? But this time thous has stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs beneath the feet of Sauron the Great.

I'd always thought the use of the old forms by Denethor annd the Mouth to have been a result of the speakers' desire to lend their words extra authority at those moments.

[Galin]

I live just a little to the north of Birmingham, where Tolkien grew up, and my local dialect is similar to the language of that area. In conversation between family and friends we still use familiar pronouns, though when I speak, "thee" sounds more like "thay" and "thine" comes out as "tharn".

That's interesting!

And I don't remember my German well enough at the moment: is it Sie (polite) along with Du familiar?

[Inziladun]

And I don't remember my German well enough at the moment: is it Sie (polite) along with Du familiar?

With all the authority of my two years of high school German, I think that's correct. ;)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Inzil, you've already pointed to the two other examples of the word usage that I would like to expand on! Good job on remembering them. Since the familiar form is used with a different purpose there, perhaps we should carry on with the discussion about Éowyn before talking about them.
And I don't remember my German well enough at the moment: is it Sie (polite) along with Du familiar?
Yes - with all the authority of one who lives in Germany and has to cope with the correct usage of both forms on a daily basis! ;)

[Galadriel55]

I'm no expert on this, but could there be a difference between "thee" and "thou"? Denethor, Eowyn, and Aragorn use "thee", and MOS says "thou". Perhaps "thou" has a different shade to it.

And I think Denethor is addressing Gandalf on familiar terms to do quite the opposite - show Galdalf that he doesn't have authority over the Stewart and can't boss him around. Or, that thy re more equal than (Denethor thinks) Gandalf thinks.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The difference between "thee" and "thou" is a matter of declension: "thou" is nominative, "thee" is objective, "thy" and "thine" are genitive, and "thine" is possessive. (The Wikipedia entry on "thou" has a good diagram explaining this, along with further information on grammar and etymology.)

Your thoughts on Denethor and Gandalf are going in the right direction - I'll be back with some quotes to explain later today, or tomorrow.

[Lhunardawen]

Esty, I believe we've had this discussion before (edit: well, maybe not at length, but we had touched on the subject) in the CbC for "The Passing of the Grey Company" (clickety click! (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11950)). My, that was quite the exchange between Aragorn and Éowyn, wasn't it?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

You have a great memory, Lhuna! I enjoyed going back to the CbC discussion to which you linked! And I enjoyed seeing how you pointed out Aragorn's admirable qualities because of the way he handled the situation. (I think "swoon-worthy" was the technical term you used?! ;) ) We did touch on the use of "thee/thou" briefly back then, but there were so many other aspects to the discussion that I didn't remember.

[Rumil]

Very interesting Esty,

I'd not clocked the significance in Aragorn/Eowyn exchanges.

As I remember it thee and thine etc are archaic, and therefore bring to mind legendary romances (Tristan and Isolde etc) but also archaic in that they bring to mind great leaders of old.

The major contrast here is between the hobbits' modern usage of you and yours and the 'heroic types' use of thee and thine. However the romantic use is a very telling sub-set of usage.

Also that the Fellowship are 'you and yours'-ers generally, perhaps tying in with (Denethor's?) comment that Pippin uses a strange idiom. Were the Fellowship (Gimli, Legolas, Aragorn, Boromir) using the modern forms as a more every-day form of speech?

Also backing up Selmo in that Oop North number of these archaic forms are still part of regonal dialect.

[Formendacil]

If memory serves, Tolkien comments on his use of Thee/Thou/Thy/Thine in one of his letters, but (also if memory serves, or IMS) he doesn't speak of Aragorn and Éowyn; rather, he speaks of Faramir and Éowyn. For those who know to look for it, Éowyn's "defrost" becomes evident in the 2nd person pronouns she uses in addressing Faramir.

Denethor has also been brought up (his use of "thee" & co. to Gandalf is a clear sign that he considers Gandalf his inferior), and (again, IMS) I believe that Tolkien also mentions, in this or some other letter, that, among other things, he was using the archaic familiar form with the Gondorians to help establish a linguistic difference between Gondor and the Shire. He mentions that a big part of the reason people called Pippin "ernil i pherrianath (sic?) is because Pippin's Eriadoric Westron used only the familiar. Via the translator conceit into modern English, this doesn't play quite as well, since the surviving pronoun is the formal "you," but we can still get a hint of different "sound" of the two Westrons.

(As an aside, it is frustrating to try and say things with any certainty when one's copy of The Letters is a 1000 leagues distant.)

[Inziladun]

Denethor has also been brought up (his use of "thee" & co. to Gandalf is a clear sign that he considers Gandalf his inferior), and (again, IMS) I believe that Tolkien also mentions, in this or some other letter, that, among other things, he was using the archaic familiar form with the Gondorians to help establish a linguistic difference between Gondor and the Shire. He mentions that a big part of the reason people called Pippin "ernil i pherrianath (sic?) is because Pippin's Eriadoric Westron used only the familiar. Via the translator conceit into modern English, this doesn't play quite as well, since the surviving pronoun is the formal "you," but we can still get a hint of different "sound" of the two Westrons.

That's actually from the ROTK Appendix F.

Tolkien notes there, that in comparison to Hobbits:

In Gondor and Rohan a more antique language was used, more formal and more terse.

So obviously Éowyn would have been familiar with the formal pronouns, probably more so since she was raised by Théoden, whose mother was from Lossarnach.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Formy, I was also looking for that reference in the Letters, and was finally pointed in the direction of Appendix F by Hammond and Scull. Inzil quotes the beginning of the pertinent passage, and Tolkien goes into more detail following that (Section II - On Translation). That's the really interesting bit for this discussion!

The Westron tongue made in the pronouns of the second person... a distinction... between 'familiar' and 'deferential' forms. It was, however, one of the peculiarities of Shire-usage that the deferential forms had gone out of colloquial use. ... This was one of the things referred to when people of Gondor spoke of the strangeness of Hobbit-speech. Peregrin Took, for instance, in his first few days in Minas Tirith used the familiar for people of all ranks, including the Lord Denethor himself. This may have amused the aged Steward, but it must have astonished his servants. No doubt this free use of the familiar forms helped to spread the popular rumour that Peregrin was a person of very high rank in his own country.

As to the usage of the different forms, Tolkien adds a footnote:
In one or two places an attempt has been made to hint at these distinctions by an inconsistent use of thou. Since this pronoun is now unusual and archaic it is employed mainly to represent the use of ceremonious language; but a change from you to thou, thee is sometimes meant to show, there being no other means of doing this, a significant change from the deferential, or between men and women normal, forms to the familiar.

That touches on Rumil's comment concerning the everyday speech amongst the members of the Fellowship. We don't read of switches back and forth from one to another, which would be more annoying than helpful in English literature*, but the change is noted only in very special cases.


*When romantic novels are translated from English to German, for example, the translator has to find a place to insert the switch from formal to familiar - when do the lovers stop saying "Sie" and start saying "Du"?!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original. I'll start it off with the German translation - the older one, as I don't have the newer, and have no idea what it did to these quotes in its often unsuccessful attempt to modernize the text. Perhaps someone else has it and can compare.

The German translation (by Carroux) uses the archaic "Ihr" and "Euch" as the formal personal pronoun, then switches to "Du" when Éowyn speaks to Aragorn. It gives her speech a very personal, almost intimate feeling and makes the indirect declaration of love stand out from the rest of their previous conversation. Since the familiar and formal pronouns are still in use today, it doesn't feel that strange or far away to a modern reader.

[Galadriel55]

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original.

In modern Russian, the respectful/deferential "you" is "you" in plural... So, like vous in French. However, as far as we know, in archaic Russian, everyone was addressed with the singular "you", regardless of rank. Unless, of course, the speaker is referring to a group of people.

So, in my Russian translation, there is no change in the Aragorn-Eowyn speach.

[skip spence]

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original. I'll start it off with the German translation - the older one, as I don't have the newer, and have no idea what it did to these quotes in its often unsuccessful attempt to modernize the text. Perhaps someone else has it and can compare.

The German translation (by Carroux) uses the archaic "Ihr" and "Euch" as the formal personal pronoun, then switches to "Du" when Éowyn speaks to Aragorn. It gives her speech a very personal, almost intimate feeling and makes the indirect declaration of love stand out from the rest of their previous conversation. Since the familiar and formal pronouns are still in use today, it doesn't feel that strange or far away to a modern reader.

Hi Esty!

I remember you mentioning how you considered starting a thread on this subject and I glad you did. Learning why Tolkien did this has given me a new and deeper understanding for these passages.

The passage you originally quoted, the exchange between Eowyn and Aragorn, did jump out to me when I first read it as an adult in English (in Swedish this particular significance it's probably lost in translation), mostly because I at the time had the notion that the "Thee" and the "Thou" etc were the formal personal pronouns, and that "You" was a familiar. But with this interpretation Eowyn's switch from one form to another didn't make much sense, which is why I took notice and was puzzled. Then I promptly forgot about it.

What you wrote in the op explains well why I had got this (obviously faulty) notion.

To us nowadays, “thee” sounds antiquated and therefore formal, so it no longer carries the meaning it once had, of a close relationship between speaker and listener.
Also, in Swedish, a familiar term is "Du", which is translated to "You", and when I hear "You" in English I automatically think of the familiar "Du", not the formal "Ni", although the latter is also translated into "You". In addition, the formal personal pronouns have fallen out of use in Sweden. So when I see one antiquated term such as "Thee" I guess I associate it with another one, that is "Ni".

Denethor and the Mouth would use the familiar terms (sorry if this has been mentioned already) as a conscious insult when they speak to Gandalf. The proper way to address a person of high rank that you do not know intimately would be with formal personal pronouns, and by using the familiars instead, as you perhaps would to a servant, the Mouth and Denethor show how little they think of the Wizard.

[Formendacil]

I'm still hoping for some responses by international members who can compare their translations of these passages to the original. I'll start it off with the German translation - the older one, as I don't have the newer, and have no idea what it did to these quotes in its often unsuccessful attempt to modernize the text. Perhaps someone else has it and can compare.

The German translation (by Carroux) uses the archaic "Ihr" and "Euch" as the formal personal pronoun, then switches to "Du" when Éowyn speaks to Aragorn. It gives her speech a very personal, almost intimate feeling and makes the indirect declaration of love stand out from the rest of their previous conversation. Since the familiar and formal pronouns are still in use today, it doesn't feel that strange or far away to a modern reader.

Between this and your immediately prior post, Esty, I'm curious about the German (and other languages, for those Downers who can answer) translation in general: do the translators imitate the Appendix F note that Hobbits only use the familiar pronouns throughout the entirety of the whole? Or is there some considered nuance (for example, might Frodo use the formal pronouns when speaking to the Elves, while Sam might never think to use it... or, for another example, does the Master/Servant Frodo/Sam relationship demonstrate it)?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for your comments on the Swedish translation and your understanding of these passages, Skip! Apparently Sweden must be the Shire, since the formal pronoun has disappeared there too! ;)

I quite agree with you that Denethor and the Mouth use the familiar form as an insult - I do look forward to discussing those passages! Coming soon to a thread near you...

Formy, I checked the German translation of Appendix F, Section II, and it is precisely the same as the original. No changes there. I'm not familiar with the whole of the translated book, but I did look to see if Sam used a deferential form when speaking to Frodo, and that is not the case. Apparently the translator paid attention to Tolkien's words, and all of the hobbits use the familiar form.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Several people have already posted about the other two incidents involving "thee" and "thou": Denethor's final conversation with Gandalf in "The Pyre of Denethor", and the Mouth of Sauron's words to Aragorn and Gandalf in "The Black Gate Opens". Since the usage of the familiar personal pronoun is similar in these two passages (and completely different from Éowyn's use), we can discuss them without pause.

One of the uses of the familiar personal pronoun is talking down to other persons. That takes place when non-family adults speak with children, for example, but also in less friendly situations like when some people speak down at foreigners as if they were not adults. And of course it also can take place when one person insults another and uses the familiar form - in German, for example, saying "Du Idiot!" to a stranger.

I find it very noteworthy that Denethor, who was always polite previously, turns insolent in regard to Gandalf at the end of his life. He rejects any kind of authority the wizard might have, and though he may not know precisely which nature Mithrandir has as a Maia, he must realize that the wizard is higher than himself. But he lashes out at him, "Since when has the Lord of Gondor been answerable to thee?" He accuses Gandalf of attempting to make him a tool for his own purposes. The Steward no longer wants to be under other authority and expresses that violently, using "thee" and "thou" to emphasize his point.

Christopher Tolkien speaks about this usage briefly in HoME 12, The Peoples of Middle-earth and quotes his father: Where thou, thee, thy appears it is used mainly to mark a use of the familiar form where that was not usual. For instance its use by Denethor in his last madness to Gandalf, and by the Messenger of Sauron, was in both cases intended to be contemptuous. But elsewhere it is ocasionally used to indicate a deliberate change to a form of affection or endearment.
The last sentence must refer to the Éowyn passage.

[Inziladun]

Quite right about Denethor and the Mouth.

Compare the Mouth's insolence when treating with Gandalf to the polite edginess with which the emissary from Mordor spoke with the Dwarves of Erebor, using "you", "your", and "yours". When feigning friendship, it wouldn't do to seem too condescending.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Oh, that's an excellent comparison, Inzil! That shows us readers that the use of the deferential or familiar personal pronouns has nothing to do with the writing style - there's definitely an agenda to it!

[The Might]

Form, I checked the letters, but couldn't find the reference you mentioned.

Looking at the Silmarillion it is interesting to note that "thee" and "thine" are mostly used by Eru and by the Valar. It makes sense since the Valar and Eru were close to one another.

Eru to Aule:
But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.Aule to Eru:
Yet the making of thing is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father. But what shall I do now, so that thou be not angry with me for ever? As a child to his father, I offer to thee these things, the work of the hands which thou hast made.Mandos to Feanor:
But after that time this matter shall be set in peace and held redressed, if others will release thee.Melkor to Ungoliant (perhaps also emotional? :D)
Therefore Melkor said to her: 'Do as I bid; and if thou hunger still when all is done, then I will give thee whatsoever thy lust may demand. Yea, with both hands.' Later:
'Thou hast had thy doe. For with my power that I put into thee thy work was accomplished. I need thee no more. A messenger of Manwe to Feanor:
Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.'Ulmo to Turgon:
And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove. 'Thus it may come to pass,' he said, 'that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason awake within thy walls. Then they shall be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh indeed, then even from Nevrast one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men. Manwe to Melkor:
'This kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others have laboured here do less than thou.' The other two passages with extensive use are Gwindor to Turin as a friend and Glaurung to Turin in the way Denethor and Mouth of Sauron use it.


PS: Sorry, I just noticed the thread title says "in Lord of the Rings", I hope adding the Silm to the dicussion is ok. :)

[Galadriel55]

Wow, TM, that's a lot of quotes! I think that the Ainur and Eru use familiars becaue they are like one family, in a way...

Funnily enough, there were no "thous" and "thees" where I most expected them to be - in The Words of Hurin and Morgoth, COH. Even when the two throw insults at each other.

Fool, little among Men, and they are the least of all that speak! Have you seen the Valar, or measured the power of Manwe and Varda? ~Morgoth

This last then I will say to you, thrall Morgoth... ~Hurin

Maybe they both want to show that they wouldn't go so low as to show their scorn in such an ungallant way? :confused: And the same goes for Thingol, when he spoke to Beren.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I don't mind the additional discussion material at all, TM! Thanks for your research! I had originally limited mine to LotR, but your examples show the use of the familiar form in family-type circumstances - which has nothing to do with a simply archaic use of "thee" and "thou", as some might have expected in the Sil.

And you add more thought-provoking examples, Gal55 - I really enjoy having a discussion that expands the boundaries of my knowledge.

[Inziladun]

As for another LOTR occurrence of the "superior" speech, there are the Witch-king's words to Éowyn:

'Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy thoughts shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'

Curiously, the Witch-king didn't use that language when he was face to face with Gandalf.

'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!'

It's "do you', not "dost thou". Does that indicate the Witch-king either didn't see Gandalf as an inferior, or that he was afraid?

[The Might]

Actually Galadriel, he does in the Unfinished Tales:

She did not seek to comfort him any more than herself: for she met her grief in silence and coldness of heart. But Húrin mourned openly, and he took up his harp and would make a song of lamentation; but he could not, and he broke his harp, and going out he lifted up his hand towards the North, crying: "Marrer of Middle-earth, would that I might see thee face to face, and mar thee as my lord Fingolfin did!"Also, interesting to note that both Turin and Gurthang(!) use "thee" in their short dialogue:

"Hail Gurthang, iron of death, thou alone now remainest! But what lord or loy*alty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee? From no blood wilt thou shrink! Wilt thou take Túrin Turambar? Wilt thou slay me swiftly?"
And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: "Yea, I will drink thy blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly."

[Galadriel55]

Actually Galadriel, he does in the Unfinished Tales

Ah, I didn't have the sense to look up that passage... It's in COH as well...

Also, interesting to note that both Turin and Gurthang(!) use "thee" in their short dialogue:

Very interesting, that. Does it show that Gurthang is closer to Turin than his friends and family? Or, maybe that they "shared their death" is what makes them close? So if all humans are equal on the day of their death, swords are equal too?... But it's a special sword, with a personality of it's own, so I guess it's almost human in nature.

Curiously, the Witch-king didn't use that language when he was face to face with Gandalf.

It's "do you', not "dost thou". Does that indicate the Witch-king either didn't see Gandalf as an inferior, or that he was afraid?

I think that it's a mixture of both. Or, maybe, his purpose was only to scare Gandalf, not to insult him - vainly, - as he knew it won't work on him. Eowyn is a different case altogether. The WK was offended and angered by her challenge. So insulting her would be a must.

[Mister Underhill]

Great thread, Esty, and great posts everybody. "Thee" as a familiar form is rattling around somewhere in my brain, but as an English-only speaker (alas), I guess the nuance of familiar versus formal forms never occurred to me while reading Tolkien. It's amazing how the prof can keep revealing new layers of nuance even after umpteen readings.

As I'm nearing the end of my first re-read of LotR in many a year, I'll throw in a couple more instances that are relatively fresh in my mind.

First, it seems that the familiar form is not completely forgotten in the Shire, as when Sam dredges his memory and comes up with the old troll tune, we find some examples:
Said Tom: 'I don't see why the likes o' thee
Without axin' leave should go makin' free
With the shank or the shin o' my father's kin;
So hand the old bone over!
The troll is likewise insultingly familiar in his response:
I'll eat thee too, and gnaw thy shins."Thee" also adds a layer of nuance (and an extra note of bittersweetness) to Treebeard's song, the call-and-response between the Ents and the Entwives, when it's introduced in the last stanzas.

And think how it must have warmed the cockles of Gimli's heart when he heard this message conveyed by Gandalf: "To Gimli son of Glóin," she said, "give his Lady's greeting. Lock-bearer, wherever thou goest my thought goes with thee."No wonder he capered!

[The Might]

By the way, perhaps interesting to note that - as expected - the Hobbit does not contain any form of "thee", "thou", "thy" or "thine" as Tolkien probably thought that children would have trouble understanding the language.

[The Might]

Also, letter #171 contains Tolkien's reply to someone criticizing his use of archaic English in TTT and describing this as "tushery". Worth reading his answer, well said, Professor!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As for another LOTR occurrence of the "superior" speech, there are the Witch-king's words to Éowyn:

Curiously, the Witch-king didn't use that language when he was face to face with Gandalf.

It's "do you', not "dost thou". Does that indicate the Witch-king either didn't see Gandalf as an inferior, or that he was afraid?

That's a fascinating comparison, Inzil! The W-K is definitely "talking down" to Éowyn, or rather Dernhelm at that point, considering "him" a foe far beneath himself. (At first I thought there was additional derision due to her gender, but it hadn't been revealed yet at that point. And come to think of it, the W-K's derision probably stopped when he learned that she was a woman, due to uncertainty and fear.) And I think your assessment of the situation between him and Gandalf is spot on - the Nazgûl Lord knew who the wizard was and realized that he was of a higher nature. I don't think the W-K was afraid, though - he seems to be too confident that his master's power is greater than that of Gandalf.

More interesting references, TM! The second one interests me especially - when both "persons" involved use the familiar form, it indicates equality, even a sense of brotherhood. There seems to be a connection on a deeper level between Turin and the sword. G55, you raise some very good questions concerning that! The closeness and the shared death are thought-provoking aspects.

Underhill, it's always a pleasure to have lured you back into posting! :Merisu: I'm finding it a great pleasure to discover new layers of understanding even after all these years of studying and rereading Tolkien. And yes! The Troll poem! It's another example of a mutual use of the familiar form, so I'm not sure there's an insult involved. It seems to me that two opponents are mockingly recognizing their equality - neither actually wins the encounter.

I hadn't realized that "thee" etc. are used in the Ent and Entwife's song, but you have a point there - it does add to the sense of loss when there was that closeness before.

And yes!! Galadriel's message to Gimli!! I hadn't thought of that, and it does add a very special intimacy to her words. I must have a thing for the more unusual love stories in Tolkien's tales, as I love this one dearly. What a triumph for the Dwarf - I wonder if she has addressed any other character with the familiar pronoun?! That calls for some more research...

Good point about the Hobbit, TM! If the Dwarves also used the familiar pronoun amongst themselves and to Bilbo and Gandalf, there was no need for differentiation anyway. And I bet Smaug didn't bother to address Mr. Baggins formally! So we could imagine that the "you" throughout the book was probably actually a "thee". Thanks also for the reference to that letter, which is interesting to read, even though it doesn't directly touch on our subject.

Thanks for all the great contributions so far! I'm very much enjoying this discussion.

[Alfirin]

That's a fascinating comparison, Inzil! The W-K is definitely "talking down" to Éowyn, or rather Dernhelm at that point, considering "him" a foe far beneath himself. (At first I thought there was additional derision due to her gender, but it hadn't been revealed yet at that point. And come to think of it, the W-K's derision probably stopped when he learned that she was a woman, due to uncertainty and fear.) And I think your assessment of the situation between him and Gandalf is spot on - the Nazgûl Lord knew who the wizard was and realized that he was of a higher nature. I don't think the W-K was afraid, though - he seems to be too confident that his master's power is greater than that of Gandalf.


Another point, as far as I am concern, that he is "talking down" to Eowyn, the fact that he starts referring to himself in the third person, distancing himself. Note that, in his speech to Gandalf, he says "This is my Hour" but when he is talking to Eowyn he decied to do it in the third person removed. He says "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey" instead of "come not between me and my prey" "He will not slay", instead of "I will not slay". He makes an object lesson out of what should be a personal matter (Eowyn is keeping him from his kill, not every Nazgul from thier kill) Another point of "down talking" might be that "In thy turn" tag line. Given where she is standing, Eowyn's "turn" is as like as not next anyway, unless she decided to simply run away (Given the WK's nature, I can easily imagine that, had Eowyn betrayed her ideals and ran away in fear from the battle, The Nazgul might very well decided not to slay her at all, since the idea of her living her whole life in fear and disgrace would have probably amused him.) Adding on the "in thy turn" bit, in my opinion, that not only does he not feel any reservations about slaying her, but that she is of so little importance he does not even feel it neccecary to make any haste; she is such a little worm he can take his leisure.

[Faramir Jones]

The Might has already made reference to the above letter, part of which I think is well worth quoting. It's a letter written by Tolkien in about September 1955 but not sent, to Hugh Brogan, who criticised the archaisms in the LotR chapter 'The King of the Golden Hall', and agreed with a critic's description of it as 'tushery'. As has been pointed out, it's very relevant to this discussion; because in it Tolkien discusses his use of 'moderate or watered archaism', giving a particular passage in LotR, and showing what it would be like in a deliberatly archaic and then in modern English:

The proper use of 'tushery' is to apply it to the kind of bogus 'medieval' stuff which attempts (without knowledge) to give a supposed temporal colour with expletives, such as tush, pish, zounds, marry, and the like. But a real archaic English is far more terse than modern; also many of things said could not be said in our slack and often frivolous idiom. Of course, not being specially well read in modern English, and far more familiar with works in the ancient and 'middle' idioms, my own ear is to some extent affected; so that though I could easily recollect how a modern would put this or that, what comes easiest to mind or pen is not quite that. But take an example from the chapter that you specially singled out (and called terrible): Book iii, 'The King of the Golden Hall'. 'Nay, Gandalf!' said the King. 'You do not know your own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall in the front of the battle, if it must be. Thus shall I sleep better.'

This is a fair sample - moderate or watered archaism. Using only words that are still used or known to the educated, the King would really have said: 'Nay, thou (n')wost not thine own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall...' etc. I know well enough what a modern would say. 'Not at all my dear G. You don't know your own skill as a doctor. Things aren't going to be like that. I shall go to the war in person, even if I have to be one of the first casualties' - and then what? Theoden would certainly think, and probably say 'thus shall I sleep better'! But people who think like that just do not talk a modern idiom. You can have 'I shall lie easier in my grave', or 'I should sleep sounder in my grave like that rather than if I stayed at home' - if you like. But there would be an insincerity of thought, a disunion of word and meaning. For a King who spoke in a modern style would not really think in such terms at all, and any reference to sleeping quietly in the grave would be a deliberate archism of expression on his part (however worded) far more bogus than the actual 'archaic' English that I have used. Like some non-Christian making reference to some Christian belief which did not in fact move him at all. (Letters, Letter 171, pp. 225-6)

[Pitchwife]

You knew I would have to post on this sooner or later, didn't you, Esty?:) I can only echo Mr Underhill - great thread and great posts so far.

The use of thou & thee in the Troll song seems to me more dialectal than insulting, in accordance with the poem's folk song character - especially when you hear Tolkien himself sing it (a good recording is here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9WmxwgW2J0)).

I just remembered a smashing occurrence of thee & thou in the Silmarillion which is missing in Miggy's list - Fëanor to Melkor:
"Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!"Everything here is a calculated insult - the use of the familiar pronoun, the epithet reminding Melkor of the worst humiliation he had suffered until then, the final act of slamming the door "in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä". (Which, incidentally, makes this a great thing to say to bailiffs, Jehovah's Witnesses and other visiting nuisances.)

Some remarks to usage in the German (Carroux) translation: the hobbits in the Shire mostly use du towards each other, but Frodo and Farmer Maggot address each other with Ihr (which may reflect uneasy feelings from the past on Frodo's side, whereas on Maggot's it may indicate that he now treats Frodo with the respect due to the Baggins of Bag-End), and the Fellowship hobbits use Ihr to the lords and ladies they meet on their journey, like Elrond, Galadriel, King Théoden and Denethor, but also to 'normal' people like Beregond - which goes quite against the grain of Tolkien's remark in Appendix F. Apparently Ms Carroux felt she had to deviate from Tolkien in this, because it would sound childish in German to say du to an unfamiliar adult.

Sam calls Frodo du, Herr Frodo, which is highly unusual in German, where only little children use du and the honorific Herr, Frau + surname together (as in du, Frau Steimel), until they have learned the correct polite forms - but here it nicely reflects the mixture of deference and intimacy.

Gandalf is addressed with du by Frodo and Bilbo, as befits a friend of the family, and by extension also by Merry and Pippin. To Sam, on the other hand, he is initially Ihr, Herr Gandalf; by the time they come to Moria, this has become du, Herr Gandalf (!), and at the end, on the Field of Cormallen, it's just du, Gandalf - showing nicely how the wizard changes in Sam's eyes from somebody both respected and feared to a companion who has become more familiar, but is still leader and guide, to a friend who is still respected but mostly loved.

[The Might]

Nice mention of the German translation, Pitch!
I've never read the books in German so it's new ground for me too.

I have to agree with the decision of avoiding using "du" and "Herr" together, it would definitely sound out of place.

[Pitchwife]

Er, Miggy, reread what I wrote. Ms Carroux doesn't avoid it, and somehow I agree with her, although it sounds weird. (I shudder to think what Krege may have done in the new translation.)

[Galadriel55]

That's interesting, Pitch. I really like the change with Gandalf. And that recording is just priceless!

In the Russian translation, Sam addresses most people defferentially. I believe (and I'm saying from memmory) that the only two people that he called by the familiar form were Hob Heyward and Gollum: the former as a friend and the latter by looking down on him. As hard as I try, I don't remember how he addressed Rosie. She addressed him in a familiar way for sure.

It seems to me, though, that Frodo was trying to convince Sam that he's not a servant but a friend to him. And Sam resisted believing that with all his might. I find it especially visible when Frodo speaks to Sam using familiar terms, and Sam replies defferentially.

Like in the German translation, Frodo addresses Maggot defferentially.

That Feanor quote is truly smashing! :eek: I wonder how he was still alive after that!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Another point, as far as I am concern, that he is "talking down" to Eowyn, the fact that he starts referring to himself in the third person, distancing himself.
That's a very interesting observation, Alfirin! It does add insult to injury, doesn't it?!

You knew I would have to post on this sooner or later, didn't you, Esty?:) I can only echo Mr Underhill - great thread and great posts so far.

Of course, Pitch! It's nice to see the (active) German members posting here, as we have daily experience of this linguistic usage. And thank you - I'm fascinated by the thoughts that have come up in the discussion, many of which hadn't occurred to me at all.

Sam calls Frodo du, Herr Frodo, which is highly unusual in German, where only little children use du and the honorific Herr, Frau + surname together (as in du, Frau Steimel), until they have learned the correct polite forms - but here it nicely reflects the mixture of deference and intimacy.

Now that really makes Sam sound like a first grader! I wasn't aware of that, not knowing the translation well.

Gandalf is addressed with du by Frodo and Bilbo, as befits a friend of the family, and by extension also by Merry and Pippin. To Sam, on the other hand, he is initially Ihr, Herr Gandalf; by the time they come to Moria, this has become du, Herr Gandalf (!), and at the end, on the Field of Cormallen, it's just du, Gandalf - showing nicely how the wizard changes in Sam's eyes from somebody both respected and feared to a companion who has become more familiar, but is still leader and guide, to a friend who is still respected but mostly loved.

Very interesting progression! And yes, I too am now curious as to what Krege did with the new translation - I may have to pick it up from the library to compare. I've attempted to avoid that till now! ;)

Thanks to you too, G55, for sharing how the Russian translation handles the personal pronoun!

[The Might]

Pitch, I was talking about

and the Fellowship hobbits use Ihr to the lords and ladies they meet on their journey, like Elrond, Galadriel, King Théoden and Denethor, but also to 'normal' people like Beregond - which goes quite against the grain of Tolkien's remark in Appendix F. Apparently Ms Carroux felt she had to deviate from Tolkien in this, because it would sound childish in German to say du to an unfamiliar adult.

[Bêthberry]

Wow, I'm away from teh interwebs for a few days and a great discussion breaks out! Feels like the old days. :cool: :) Thanks, Esty, for a marvellous thread, and All you Downers for interesting replies. (I can't help but recall that refrain from Monty Python, "Bring out your Dead". ;)

Very interesting Esty,

I'd not clocked the significance in Aragorn/Eowyn exchanges.

As I remember it thee and thine etc are archaic, and therefore bring to mind legendary romances (Tristan and Isolde etc) but also archaic in that they bring to mind great leaders of old.

The major contrast here is between the hobbits' modern usage of you and yours and the 'heroic types' use of thee and thine. However the romantic use is a very telling sub-set of usage.

Also that the Fellowship are 'you and yours'-ers generally, perhaps tying in with (Denethor's?) comment that Pippin uses a strange idiom. Were the Fellowship (Gimli, Legolas, Aragorn, Boromir) using the modern forms as a more every-day form of speech?

Also backing up Selmo in that Oop North number of these archaic forms are still part of regonal dialect.

In addition to Rumil's point about the archaic use in the old romances, the verse translation of the Kalevala which Tolkien knew so well also uses the older forms.


Wherefore at thy heart's desire
Should I not thy flesh devour,
And drink up thy blood so evil?
I who guiltless flesh had eaten
Drank the blood of those who sinned not?

This is the sword's reply when Kullervo asks if it is willing to kill him.

Romance and myth were a strong pull for Tolkien.

[Pitchwife]

Sorry, Miggy, I got you wrong then - I thought you meant what I said about Sam. My bad.

Anyway, Sam isn't the only one with that peculiar usage. The Gaffer calls the miller du, Herr Sandigmann, with a good deal of irony, but both he and Farmer Cotton address Frodo as du, Herr Frodo and du, Herr Beutlin, respectively. Apparently, this is the proper way among hobbits in the Carroux translation. It makes Shire society feel more egalitarian and pre- or non-bourgeois than it may have been meant to be, and it also makes Frodo's Ihr to Maggot stand out all the more - he still seems to have been kind of in awe of the farmer.


*When romantic novels are translated from English to German, for example, the translator has to find a place to insert the switch from formal to familiar - when do the lovers stop saying "Sie" and start saying "Du"?!
Some never do - like Sartre and Beauvoir, who I think vouvoyed each other all their lives. But then they were French, and the French are weird in that respect anyway - they even talk to God like that.

Thanks for the Kalevala quote, Bêthberry! I knew Kullervo was one of Tolkien's models for the Túrin story, but had forgotten how closely Túrin's dialogue with Gurthang is modelled on this passage.

Which reminds me, I was told that the formal pronoun is becoming rare in Finnish, and the Kalevala, on the other hand, only uses the informal forms in the original...*hopes for a Finn to chime in here about the Finnish LotR translation*

[Faramir Jones]

I was very interested in your comment, Pitchwife, about the usage by a particular French couple of the formal 'vous' between each other, rather than the intimate 'tu':



Some never do - like Sartre and Beauvoir, who I think vouvoyed each other all their lives. But then they were French, and the French are weird in that respect anyway - they even talk to God like that.

There's a excellent example I've come up against, that I've used to explain to non-French speakers the difference in usage between 'tu' and 'vous'. Napoleon Bonaparte, general and future First Consul and Emperor of the French, married as his first wife, Josephine de Beauharnais. He was passionately in love with her, she far less with him. When he was fighting in Italy in 1796, he sent her frequent and passionate letters; hers were far less frequent and passionate. What particularly angered him was her insistence in refering to him with the formal 'vous'. In one letter, he said the following:


If I rise to work in the middle of the night, it is because this may hasten by a matter of days the arrival of my sweet love.

Yet in your letter of the 23rd, and 26th. Ventose, you call me vous. Vous yourself!

Ah! wretch, how could you have written this letter? How cold it is?

And then there are those four days between the 23rd, and the 26th.; what were you doing that you failed to write to your husband? ...

Ah, my love, that vous, those four days made me long for my former indifference. Woe to the person responsible!

May he as punishment and penalty, experience what my convictions and the evidence (which is in your friend's favor) would make me experience!

Hell has no torments great enough! Nor do the Furies have serpents enough! Vous! Vous!

:eek:

[Faramir Jones]

Pitchwife, I wanted to comment on what you had to say here:

Some remarks to usage in the German (Carroux) translation: the hobbits in the Shire mostly use du towards each other, but Frodo and Farmer Maggot address each other with Ihr (which may reflect uneasy feelings from the past on Frodo's side, whereas on Maggot's it may indicate that he now treats Frodo with the respect due to the Baggins of Bag-End), and the Fellowship hobbits use Ihr to the lords and ladies they meet on their journey, like Elrond, Galadriel, King Théoden and Denethor, but also to 'normal' people like Beregond - which goes quite against the grain of Tolkien's remark in Appendix F. Apparently Ms Carroux felt she had to deviate from Tolkien in this, because it would sound childish in German to say du to an unfamiliar adult.

To be fair about Pippin's use of Ihr to Beregond, he initially thought that the latter was of higher rank, and was only later told by him that he was just a 'plain man of arms'.

How does Beregond refer to Pippin in the translation? Is it in formal or intimate terms? I'm interested because though both are equal in rank, Pippin is higher in social position, being the son and heir of the Thain.

[Pitchwife]

To be fair about Pippin's use of Ihr to Beregond, he initially thought that the latter was of higher rank, and was only later told by him that he was just a 'plain man of arms'.
True.
How does Beregond refer to Pippin in the translation? Is it in formal or intimate terms? I'm interested because though both are equal in rank, Pippin is higher in social position, being the son and heir of the Thain.
Beregond also uses the formal Ihr, although he uses du with the other guards in the kitchen. Can't remember whether he was aware of Pippin's social position back home (and don't have the book here to check), but I guess Pip being a companion of Mithrandir and a guest of the Steward would have been cause enough to show some respect, just to be on the safe side.

PS. - Thanks for the Napoleon letter! He could get quite irascible, couldn't he? But my favourite is the one he wrote to Josephine on his way home from a campaign, where he tells her "Don't wash yourself, I'm coming".

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I have a couple of additional examples for the use of "thou". In these cases, they are found in the context of poetry/song. Gildor's Elves sing:Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!
Clear are they eyes and bright thy breath!
Snow-white! Snow-white! We sing to thee...
Later on, we read that the last lines of Galadriel's song translate:Maybe thou shalt find Valimar.
Maybe even thou shalt find it.
Her poetic messages to Aragorn and Legolas were already mentioned, I think.

Does poetry use the familiar form for some special reason? I do know that in some languages (French, and sometimes English, for example), otherwise silent syllables are pronounced in poetry and song, illustrating the fact that the lyrical use of language can differ from normal conversation.

Or can the use of "thou" in singing to a goddess such as Varda be compared to the familiar use in prayer?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

At last I get to join this most interesting thread... I'm afraid I won't have that much to add anymore... but anyway...

Or can the use of "thou" in singing to a goddess such as Varda be compared to the familiar use in prayer?
I believe this would be the case. It is effectively a prayer, and therefore, that's the same way.

***

As for other uses of "thou" in translations, perhaps I could contribute my bit. In the Czech translation, we have basically the same situation as in Russian (the languages and culture-use of pronouns being very much alike in this respect), or even very similar to German, as far as I see from the previous. So just to put in one more language to compare, let me sum it up (even though like I said, it's very much similar):

In Czech, you have the "polite plural" you use towards adult people you are unfamiliar with, whether you are adult yourself or not. I am actually wondering whether the reason why people tend to call Hobbits by the familiar singular ("thou"-like) form isn't partially because of this "child-like" association in the foreigner's eyes.

Hobbits in general use the "familiar singular" (ty) towards each other, except for Sam, who keeps calling Frodo, but also Merry and Pippin in the polite plural (vy). Obviously here the class-status plays its role. Otherwise, the Hobbits tend to address other people by the polite plural, and for example when they first meet Strider, they call him that way. I believe, however, that once they become friends - and once the Fellowship is formed - everyone in the Fellowship addresses each other in the familiar singular form, except for Gandalf. The Hobbits keep referring to Gandalf as "vy" (plural), and so does Gimli (but not Legolas or Aragorn! Also, I recall being somewhat surprised by Boromir calling Gandalf "ty" - familiar singular - in front of Moria when asking him about the opening password).

What I said for Hobbits goes for Bilbo in general as well. Actually, it is quite funny - I believe in the whole book of The Hobbit, people do, as a rule, address each other only with the polite plural. Even Bilbo addressing Gollum (whom later Frodo and Sam address in singular). There are only two exceptions I can recall: the Dwarves talking to each other (e.g. Thorin to Dori) and, quite interestingly, Smaug to Bilbo. I am not sure if it has anything to do with the original - I could imagine "you" being used universally in the whole book since the book has the "modern" tone with not much "thou"-ing in it, but still, it's the translator's decision to translate each "you" as plural...

Now, speaking of that, there actually seems to be one interesting aspect to the Czech translation. Obviously, the singular form is not exactly the equivalent of English "thou", since "thou" has apparently quite archaic overtone, whereas the Czech "ty" is the most mundane thing you can have. In LotR, however, the translation seems to create something which we could call a new form of its own - technically. Not sure if it works like that in the other languages which have the singular/plural forms, so I would like to hear about that. But e.g. among Hobbits, the singular pronoun has the most mundane sense, like when I am talking to my friends. However, when e.g. Éowyn or Witch-king use the pronoun (as they do), it sounds somehow more "noble" - that's what I mean by saying that it creates something else.

In Czech, you could theoretically use the singular form in derogatory sense (as the W-K or even Éowyn towards him might be assumed to do), to someone whom you actually should address by the polite plural, but you decide not to in order to mock him. It brings to mind some 17-century colonialist guy addressing primitive natives in singular. However, in the case of W-K it does not sound that way (I believe the Mouth and the Orcs are about the only ones who actually feel like doing that). The same it is with Éowyn and Aragorn talking to each other: it does not give the same feeling as if two young people were having a date today. It's determined by the rest of the vocabulary they use: their language is so "high" or "noble" otherwise, that in some way, it would be more logical for them to use the polite plural (you) and it would fit well with the rest of the words they say. Using singular in such a case sounds peculiar (though a reader might not really give it much thought - this is the first time I am consciously reflecting on it - but in any case, it will sound strikingly different to him from the "mundane talk" he is used to) - and therefore, I believe, it gets closer to the archaic sound of "thou" in English.

There could be more to say, but I will cut it short and try to remember yet some interesting examples. How about this: the Valar (including Morgoth, and speaking of him, Ungoliant) address each other in the familiar singular form. Or, in the abovementioned case of Beregond and Pippin, in Czech they of course both use the singular - and interestingly enough, this actually brings another feeling to the reader's mind: the feeling that in fact, "properly" Pippin should address Beregond by the polite plural, but he does not because Beregond approached him as equal in the first place. Something similar happens with Bergil, who automatically addresses Pippin in singular - and somehow you get the feeling, at the moment Pippin says "I'm 29", that the boy should be shocked and would have liked to correct his mistake of not addressing Pippin in plural - addressing Pippin in singular also further implies (to the reader) that Bergil thought Pippin to be a child.

[Galadriel55]

Hurray for brother languages! :D

Otherwise, the Hobbits tend to address other people by the polite plural, and for example when they first meet Strider, they call him that way.

I haven't thought of that. They do in the Russian translation as well, and somewhere along the conversation Strider calls Frodo ty, and then explains that he is used to that form. After that, they address each other familiarly.

And that reminds me - Butterbur and Nob use the formal as well in my translation.

In Czech, you could theoretically use the singular form in derogatory sense (as the W-K or even Éowyn towards him might be assumed to do), to someone whom you actually should address by the polite plural, but you decide not to in order to mock him. It brings to mind some 17-century colonialist guy addressing primitive natives in singular.

That's interresting. As far as I know, the polite plural is relatively modern in history terms. Only a couple hundred years. :) :p The earlier Zhars, and before them - princes, were always called ty. So for me, when I see Theoden, Elrond, Denethor, and other rulers being called ty, I think "ancient".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I haven't thought of that. They do in the Russian translation as well, and somewhere along the conversation Strider calls Frodo ty, and then explains that he is used to that form. After that, they address each other familiarly.
Wait, do you actually say that they added such a thing into the book?

And that reminds me - Butterbur and Nob use the formal as well in my translation.
Indeed they do so in Czech as well, I guess that's the polite manner of the businessmen, being polite to your customers.

That's interresting. As far as I know, the polite plural is relatively modern in history terms. Only a couple hundred years. :) :p The earlier Zhars, and before them - princes, were always called ty. So for me, when I see Theoden, Elrond, Denethor, and other rulers being called ty, I think "ancient".
That's true, the polite plural is a rather modern invention in general. But now that I think of that, in Czech, calling nobles "ty" probably happens mostly only in fairytales, and in the few old sagas we have (or rather I am thinking of the one collection of old sagas which was written down in the 19th century), otherwise, an average person does not get to read things where a king is called "ty", so it sounds probably even much less natural than in many other languages, simply because of the lack of old sources.

[Galadriel55]

Wait, do you actually say that they added such a thing into the book?

Yep. I don't remember exactly when he says it, but Aragorn says something to Frodo, and then adds: "I will call you ty, and call me likewise. We* do not speak differently." And Frodo answers: "Speak as you are used to."

...Or something to that effect.

It just sounds terribly weird if two unknown adults begin with calling each other vy and go to ty in a matter of mintes. However, it is a common thing to say "call me ty" to someone whom you are talking to, one of the reasons being to befriend them or make them feel comfortable.

The most interesting thing that I just realised is that in my translation, only the hobbits ever use "vy". I do not remember anyone else saying it. This would sound rather weird if it was in English, but I must say it adds a certain charm to the Shire.



*We meaning his, er, circle of friends (as assumed upon rereading, the Rangers), not him and Frodo

[Galadriel55]

I came across another quote that I don't believe was mentioned here before:

Then Glaurung stirred for the last time ere he died, and he spoke with his last breath, saying: "Hail Nienor, daughter of Hurin. We meet again ere the end. I give thee joy that thou hast found thy brother at last. And now thou shalt know him: a stabber in the dark, treacherous to foes, faithless to friends, and a curse unto his kin, Turin son of Hurin! But the worst of all his deeds thou shalt feel in thyself."

~Of Turin Turambar, The Sil, as well as The Death of Glaurung, COH.

Glaurung could easily be talking down to Nienor, like he did before to Turin. After all, he knows that he dies victorius: he succeeded in demolishing the family. Or, maybe, he's being sarcastic and addressing Nienor like a friend and equal. Or maybe he forsees that they are equal by their death. It's a funny thing how they all died in basically the same place, Glaurung, Nienor, Turin, and Gurthang. And later Morwen.

[Galadriel]

It's a funny thing how they all died in basically the same place, Glaurung, Nienor, Turin, and Gurthang. And later Morwen.

Funnily enough, I don't find it all that strange. I would have found it more intriguing if they had died in places that were somehow relevant to their births or later lives.

[Galadriel55]

Funnily enough, I don't find it all that strange. I would have found it more intriguing if they had died in places that were somehow relevant to their births or later lives.

No, I don't find it strange that they all came together upon death. It's what they've been trying to do all life - find each other. So that place is relevant to their lives.

[Galadriel]

No, I don't find it strange that they all came together upon death. It's what they've been trying to do all life - find each other. So that place is relevant to their lives.

You do have a point there. I wonder, though, why Glaurung should be with them.

[Galadriel55]

You do have a point there. I wonder, though, why Glaurung should be with them.

Because it is through him that Morgoth externally* "messed" with them for the most part.

*I think of the curse more as an "internal" thing, and dragons and orcs and such "external"

[Eönwë]

I only just saw this thread, and I have to say that it's just added a whole new dimension to my reading of Tolkien, I'll have to watch out for it on my next reading of LOTR.

FormLooking at the Silmarillion it is interesting to note that "thee" and "thine" are mostly used by Eru and by the Valar. It makes sense since the Valar and Eru were close to one another.
Also, in the list that you gave, except for Aule to Eru, each quote has someone talking to an inferior being. Not that it's an insult, but it could be more like the "treating them as a child" usage that was mentioned earlier. Obviously the Aule-Eru one is familiarity, he since he responds in kind, and it may be the same with all of them, but it could be both as well, and in the case of Ulmo to Turgon and the messenger of Manwe to Feanor, there is a definite feeling of the former of each being of a higher status (and in the second case, being the representative of someone of a higher status), so there might be some of the feeling of natural superiority there, not meant as an insult, but just the way it is.

[Galadriel55]

When reading the UT I noticed that Ulmo and Tuor talk familiarly to each other. I wouldn't have found it unusual for Ulmo, but Tuor replies in the same fashion! It sounds even more out of place when combined with "Lord":

And what wouldst thou of me, Lord, if I come now to Turgon?

~Tuor, Of Tuor and his Comming to Gondolin, UT

If I haven't known about this thread, I would probably gloss over this instance.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Good catch, G55! This is indeed an interesting example of the familiar usage. My impression here is that this is the conversation between a god and his follower, which is intimate and highy personal. Tuor's frequent use of "Lord" in this dialogue intensifies that impression. These are no equals conversing casually. Ulmo is clearly revered by Tuor.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good catch, G55! This is indeed an interesting example of the familiar usage. My impression here is that this is the conversation between a god and his follower, which is intimate and highy personal. Tuor's frequent use of "Lord" in this dialogue intensifies that impression. These are no equals conversing casually. Ulmo is clearly revered by Tuor.

I would think about it that way, too. See the same thing above for the praise to Elbereth: it is effectively a prayer. And it is usual for prayer to be intimate, using familiar form, it is a "dialogue with the divine power", only in this case, it is face-to-face, but otherwise the same.

[morwen edhelwen]

Bit of thread drift; but, Estelyn, are you German by citizenship/nationality, or do you just live in Germany? As for the "thee" and 'thou", I always thought it was meant to signify, as you said:
1.authority(familiarity, I especially remember Shakespeare's use of it in Romeo and Juliet, from studying it in English class and other plays, as part of insults and in conversations between masters and servants. I think the idea here (but I am not an expert, just what I think) is, or was, that if "you in general" are in authority over another person, you can be 'familiar" in a way to them, as in the days when thou and thee were in common use, social circles were tight and the rich were (just assuming) more secure in the thought that their servants wouldn't reveal any of the masters' secrets.

People (in general) love to talk about others, especially if those others are seen as "better" in some way.

2. familiarity, between close friends and family members. I think Tolkien is using both senses(i haven't looked at the book in a long time as I don't know where my family's copy went)

[Elmo]

Andreth says to Finrod in the Athrabeth: "But say not thou to me, for so he once did!" Which implies she is not comfortable with the reminder of the closeness that she had to Aegnor which Finrod reminds her of, ( or she thought Finrod was patronising her!)

By the way, what a great piece of writing the Athrabeth is!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Morwen, I'm of German background, though not born in Germany nor a citizen, but I live here permanently. It's complicated... ;)

Yes, you basically have the two main usages of "thee" and "thou", perhaps with the addition of the religious usage, which we find in passages of Tolkien's work as well.

Elmo, that's a great find! I haven't read the Athrabeth in quite a while, so I didn't remember that.

[Guinevere]

How could I have missed this great thread?! Yes, I know, it’s my own fault; I have been shamefully neglecting the Downs for much too long! :(

I found one more example of the use of "thou" in the LotR: Faramir, recalling his encounter with Boromir’s funeral boat :
"Boromir! Where is thy horn? Whither goest thou? O Boromir!"
This indicates the closeness of the brothers, and it has this archaic word order "Whither goest thou" (Old English seems to have been closer to German than modern English)

Before reading Tolkien, I had met these forms only in Shakespeare and the Bible. The quotations where thee and thou are used have a special impact on me, they always have the effect of "other time".


And yes, I too am now curious as to what Krege did with the new translation - I may have to pick it up from the library to compare. I've attempted to avoid that till now! ;)
Since we have the new (Krege) translation in the house, I will go and see if and how it differs from the old one, using the examples Pitchwife mentioned.

[Guinevere]

In the Shire, Krege uses “Sie” instead of “Ihr”, which makes it sound more modern.
The hobbits mostly call each other „Du“, but then they mostly are friends or family. In the conversations in the „Ivybush“ a strange hobbit is addressed as „Sie“. The gaffer calls the miller „du, Sandigmann“ (but without „Herr“!)

The Sackville-Bagginses call Merry and Frodo „Sie“ („Sie sind kein Beutlin- Sie… Sie sind ein Brandybock!“) (in the old translation it’s “Du”)

Sam calls Frodo „Du“ and “Herr Frodo”, and sometimes “Du,Chef!” (Grrrr!) Gandalf he addresses in the beginning „Sie, Herr Gandalf“, later „Du, Herr Gandalf“, and finally Du Gandalf.

Farmer Maggot calls Frodo „Du, Herr Frodo“, but the Nazgul he tells „Verschwinden Sie!“
Mr Butterbur also calls the hobbits „Sie“ (and vice versa)

Strider and the hobbits also call each other „Sie“ until his declaration that he is Aragorn, and will give his live to save them. Thereafter they call each other Du. (in the old translation “Ihr” changes to “Du” a bit later, on the way to weathertop.)

In the Council of Elrond, Frodo calls Elrond “Du” (.Everyone is called „Du“, as far as I can see.. (Du, Meister Elrond)
Aragorn and Boromir call each other “Du” from the start. (In the Carroux translation it’s “Ihr”.) Even Sam says“Du“ to Elrond (“Aber du willst ihn doch nicht etwa allein losschicken, Meister?”)!!

Galadriel is called „Du“ by Frodo and also by Sam! ("Ihr" in the old translation)

Eomer and Aragorn say “Du” to each other. (In the old translation: "ihr")
But Théoden, as befits a king of old, is called “Ihr” by Gandalf, Eomer and everyone. (Also by Merry) (Théoden, on the other hand, calls Gandalf “Du”) (In the old translation Théoden calls Gandalf "Ihr")

At the first meeting with Faramir, Sam calls him “Sie”(!), and Frodo “Ihr”, but not for long. After the episode with the Mumak, both call him “Du” (and vice versa). (Old transl: both Frodo and Sam call Faramir "Ihr", Faramir calls Frodo "Ihr", but Sam "Du")

Gandalf calls Denethor “Ihr”, Denethor calls him “Du, Mithrandir”, but Pippin says “Sie” to Denethor (!) and he also says ”Sie” to Beregond, but only initially, after their snack on the walls, they have become friends and call each other “Du”. (Old translation: Gandalf and Pippin call Denethor "Ihr", Denethor calls Gandalf "Ihr" and Pippin "Du". Pippin and Beregond call each other "Ihr" the whole time.)

Aragorn and Eowyn call each other “Du” right from the start! So here there is no difference and hence no special significance of the passages where in the original “Thou” is used. (old translation:"Ihr", but "Du" in the passages where "Thou" is used)

Faramir and Eowyn also call each other “Du” right from the start. (old transation: "Ihr" the whole time)

[Galadriel55]

Guinevere, I can't rep you again yet, but such a detailed review deserves a note! Thanks for posting the differences!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What G55 said - thanks for all that research, Guinevere!

[Findegil]

It is probably obvious for the Germans here at the downs, but for sure not for all members: German has preserved both familiar singular and polite plural up to now. But in daily speech polite plural is more and more neglected. That means modern English lost the familiar form while German is on the way to loss the polite form.
In translating an English text which uses the (now) obsolete and archaic familiar form you must choose between the archaism (which would be transported by the use of the German polite plural) and the familiarity of the characters (which is transported by the familiar singular). That is why Carroux and Krege came in some cases to different solutions.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Guinevere]

Well, what is interesting is that beside the familiar "Du" Carroux used only "Ihr" - the archaic form of polite address; wheras Krege uses both "Ihr" and "Sie" - apparently to distinguish between the 20th century hobbits of the Shire and the archaic world of Middle-Earth. (But he exaggerates the modernizing of the Shire language, and I really prefer the old translation!)

Btw, "Ihr" as a polite address is still in use today in the Swiss dialect of Kanton Bern. Also, in 19th century literature it has not quite the same connotation as "Sie" - it's somehow between "Du" and "Sie" ( e.g. a landlord calls the cook "Ihr", but the guest "Sie". The cook calls the landlord "Sie".) But in feudal times apparently "Ihr" was common , even among family members of the nobility.

In the 17th and 18th century there was even more social distinction in pronominal address in the German language: servants were called "Er" and "Sie" ( 3rd person singular) (eg: Komm Er! Bring Er!) And children in upper class families called their parents "Sie" (as for example Mozart in the letters to his father)

Complicated business!! it's so much easier calling everybody "You"!;)

[Pitchwife]

Well, what is interesting is that beside the familiar "Du" Carroux used only "Ihr" - the archaic form of polite address; wheras Krege uses both "Ihr" and "Sie" - apparently to distinguish between the 20th century hobbits of the Shire and the archaic world of Middle-Earth.
I get his motive for that to some degree, but still, this sounds horribly wrong to me in a fantasy setting. I think it would be palatable in an urban fantasy set in modern times, but in Tolkien, yuck.

Btw, "Ihr" as a polite address is still in use today in the Swiss dialect of Kanton Bern.
Not only there. I vividly remember my mother addressing her sister's elderly mother-in-law as "Ihr" in my early childhood (around 1970), because it struck me as archaic even then - but then, that was probably a rural as well as dialectal usage.

Complicated business!! it's so much easier calling everybody "You"!;)
But so much less fun with interlingual jokes. Wasn't it our former Bundespräsident Heinrich Lübke who addressed a visiting anglophone statesman with the immortal words "You can say you to me"?

[Morthoron]

A brief note. I'm not sure how it is in translations, but in the English version you'll notice that the Shire and Bree folk are the only ones who use contractions in their dialogue. The high and mighty, The Dunedain, Elves of Rivendell and Lothlorien, and Gondorions such as Denethor and Faramir never use contractions. Ever.

Aint that somethin'?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

A brief note. I'm not sure how it is in translations, but in the English version you'll notice that the Shire and Bree folk are the only ones who use contractions in their dialogue. The high and mighty, The Dunedain, Elves of Rivendell and Lothlorien, and Gondorions such as Denethor and Faramir never use contractions. Ever.

Aint that somethin'?

For certain. I mean, that's how I always understood the "system" of it. I would assume most of the translations reflect it in some way, even though not all languages use the same tools to make it work that way. But there are some "effects" in the language which reflect the same thing: the "casual" manner of speech as opposed to the "high and cultivated" one. For instance, in the Czech translation, the hobbits/Breelanders (and Bergil!) speak in a sort of "casual" or "spoken" manner (as opposed to "written" - the way people don't normally speak when they actually speak, only in official speeches, but in literature you usually write that way and not in the "spoken" manner - I think the comparison to contractions in English fits quite well enough).

[Galadriel55]

The Russian translation also differentiates between the "simple" hobbit/Bree/Bergil speech and the "noble" speech. Sometimes there are ungramatical sentences (much oftener, negatives, etc) that make it sound hobbit. Also, the use of words that people like Denethor would NEVER use, because they are just unfitting for such a person. Bergil speaks speaks gramatically correctly, but his vocabulary is a child's vocabulary. There is one phrase that jumped out at me in his speech when I compared the translation to the original: when he says that Beregond wants to send him away with the maidens. The Russian translation uses a word that is more like "lasses"*. In the translation it gives Bergil a Tom-Sawyer-ish attitude. But in the original it makes him sound like a child who values honour (or has parents that value it).

*The word is "devchonki", the (slightly offensive out of context) variation of "devochki"=girls. The reason the translator chose the first one is to give Bergil that boyish "scorn-the-girls" attitude that makes him look his age, or possibly a bit younger. It's hard to find a word for "maiden" that would mean girls of his own age, and not older, but I suppose the translation could have gone with the more respectful second word. But that way it doesn't give Bergil the boyish attitude, and it doesn't give him the appearance of someone who values honour.

It's confusing. It's like there are two Bergils.

[Guinevere]

A brief note. I'm not sure how it is in translations, but in the English version you'll notice that the Shire and Bree folk are the only ones who use contractions in their dialogue. The high and mighty, The Dunedain, Elves of Rivendell and Lothlorien, and Gondorions such as Denethor and Faramir never use contractions. Ever.
Aint that somethin'?
I know, these differences in style make it much easier to find the speaker of a quote in "Palantir of Fortune":D
And I guess it's one of the things I love so much about Tolkien's language.

Recently there was another discussion on style here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=17590) As you can see I didn't even know the term contraction until now.:o

The fact that the hobbits use these contractions makes their speech sound more modern, and that's what Krege (the translator of the new German translation) tried to achieve.

[Guinevere]

When reading "The Children of Húrin" I noticed that Christopher Tolkien had changed all the "thou"s to "you"! (in the conversations with Glaurung and Gurthang) Why do you think he did that?
Personally I (and my sons) relished thosed quotes from the Silmarillion (e.g. "die now and the darkness have thee!!")

[Inziladun]

When reading "The Children of Húrin" I noticed that Christopher Tolkien had changed all the "thou"s to "you"! (in the conversations with Glaurung and Gurthang) Why do you think he did that?
Personally I (and my sons) relished thosed quotes from the Silmarillion (e.g. "die now and the darkness have thee!!")

Perhaps it was in the (unnecessary, to me at least) interest of "modernisation". though that's a mere guess.

I agree that the "archaic" language is in fact a point in favour of the UT and Silm versions.

[Galadriel55]

When reading "The Children of Húrin" I noticed that Christopher Tolkien had changed all the "thou"s to "you"! (in the conversations with Glaurung and Gurthang) Why do you think he did that?

What?! No!!! :( I never noticed that before. And now it all sounds wrong in COH.

I can't think of any reason CJRT would want to change it. But another question is why he changed it in COH but not in The Sil. He edited both of them, so why not change both, or leave both?

[Aiwendil]

I'm pretty sure the change was neither arbitrary nor an attempt at modernisation. I don't have the books at hand at the moment, but I'm almost certain that JRRT himself changed his mind once or twice about "thou" vs. "you" in various places in the Narn.

(I believe (though I could be mis-remembering) that he originally wrote "thou" in some places but later began, but didn't finish, systematically changing every "thou" to "you". Presumably, in UT Christopher Tolkien left this as it was whereas in CoH he completed the systematic revision. I could be wrong about the details, though; I'll try to find the source when I get home.)

[Aiwendil]

Hmm, maybe this is what I was thinking of, referring to the dialogue between Hurin and Morgoth:

As the speeches were typed they were set entirely in the second person singular, 'thou wert', 'knowest thou', etc.; but my father went through it changing every 'thou' and 'thee' to 'you', and the equivalent verb-forms – and changing 'Knowest thou' to 'Do you know' rather than 'Know you' (also 'puissant' to 'mighty'). In this form, of course, the text was printed in Unfinished Tales.

The dialogues with Glaurung and Gurthang originate from a different text (NE, as Christopher calls it), so perhaps they were changed in the interest of stylistic consistency.

I could have sworn I read something else about "thou" and "you" in the Narn, but if so I can't find it.

[Faramir Jones]

People might be interested to know that Tolkien intended to use the old intimate 'thee' in an exchange between Samwise and Rose Gamgee.

In a planned but unpublished last chapter to LotR, set 17 years after Sam and his companions returned to the Shire, and when he receives a letter from King Elessar about the latter's forthcoming visit, we see Sam and Rose when their children have gone to bed:

Master Samwise stood at the door and looked away eastward. He drew Mistress Rose to him, and set his arm about her.

'March the twenty-fifth!' he said. 'This day seventeen years ago, Rose wife, I didn't think I should ever see thee again. But I kept on hoping.'

'I never hoped at all, Sam,' she said, 'not until that very day; and then suddenly I did. About noon it was, and I felt so glad that I began singing. And mother said: "Quiet lass! There's ruffians about." And I said: "Let them come! Their time will soon be over. Sam's coming back." And you came.'

'I did,' said Sam. 'To the most belovedest place in all the world. To my Rose and my garden.' (The History of Middle-earth: IX. Sauron Defeated, (London: HarperCollins Publishers, 1993), pp. 127-8)

The use of 'thee' in this context adds, in my opinion, a little extra to this tender scene. :)

[Lalwendë]

This is an interesting thread. I've been looking at the English Dialect Dictionaries of Joseph Wright on and off the past few months and of course he was an immense influence on Tolkien. These collections of dialect usage are a wonderful resource if you can find a decent copy of them online (there are six volumes), or have the money to buy a rare paper copy.

Of course, one of the topics he deals with is the thorny issue of theeing and thouing. It's still a bit of a hot topic to this day in the North where we haven't all yet descended to more common language usage! Even the nickname of Sheffielders refers to this as they are called "deedars" which possibly refers to their over use of the words "thee" and "thar" ("thou" in the Sheffield accent) which is viewed, even in towns as close as Barnsley and Sheffield as deeply uncouth. It could also be a more aggressive insult which stems back to the past - "deedar" being "thee, thar" and hence a verbal insult intended to mark the inhabitants out as socially inferior. Or maybe just mocking the inability to sound "th". Who knows? The important thing here is the nickname, which is widespread (incidentally, it cuts both ways, Barnsley folk are nicknamed "Dingles" ;)).

One saying I heard when I was a child would be "Don't thee thee me!" which meant you needed to moderate your tone and treat your elders with more respect! And it's still something you hear today in various ways and combinations. Also the source of a joke you hear all the time up north which runs: "Where's the bin?" "Ahs bin nowhere. Why? Where's thar bin?"

Far from being cutely 'familiar', it's seen as a bit insulting to "thee" someone and has been for some time. It might be used between a couple, between good friends or by a parent to a child (my grandparents would "thee" me all the time), but for say Denethor to use to Gandalf would be seen as highly rude. And for Eowyn to use it to Aragorn it would make him very uncomfortable.

Here's an entry from Vol 6:
THEE, v, Wor. To treat or address haughtily; to speak in a patronising manner.

A superior speaking to his inferior, a master to his servant, &c, would be said to 'thee' him, if he spoke sharply, angrily, or haughtily.

And note that this instance was gathered in Worcestershire. Not the North! Tolkien will have known full well that it was a dodgy way to address someone, fraught with potential danger ;)

The reason why people now associate thee and thou with high falutin' language use is that it's preserved in the Bible, particularly the King James edition, and religious writings usually addressed God or divinity in familiar terms rather than formal.

It's possible that the loss of thee and thou came about due to the influence of French. When they invaded and imposed their system and language on the English, they also brought this formal/informal langauge system, whereas before, there was no 'you' and 'thou' wasn't considered insulting. So there's also a class element at play here, with a word usage gradually becoming considered insulting over time (as also happened with what are now our swear words, once everyday language) because the ruling class didn't use it, except presumably to insult the servants.

I'll stop now before I get onto how modern English dialect usage has devised replacements for loss of the plural second person and what happens when various accents swallow chunks of their "thous"...

[Faramir Jones]

I liked very much your references to Wright's English Dialect Dictionaries, Lalwendë!

I saw, when at Oxonmoot 2011, the phonograph Wright used to gather material for that work, in Oxford's Museum of the History of Science:

http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/a-very-special-ordinary-phonograph/