Hot Balrog Lovin'

[doug*platypus]

Would it be possible for Balrogs of Morgoth to procreate? With Humans, Elves, Orcs or only Maiar? Perhaps one of the Balrogs was female, after all Arien is a spirit of fire. I personally would have thought that as a spirit of flame and shadow, the Balrog would not be able to have children. I don't think it's simply a question of being anatomically correct, I just think that it's not in their nature. The idea has been suggested on one or two threads, as a possible way to explain legions of miniBalrogs roaming the countryside:

Gothmog (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001661#000012)

The Seven Thains of Morgoth (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001783)

The Witch-King and Gothmog (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001755)

I heard somewhere (perhaps Letters) a quote from JRRT that evil could not beget. Maybe someone has that on hand? It can't have held true for Orcses, unless Morgoth had some other means of producing the hundreds of thousands that were seemingly present in the Wars of Beleriand.

[Lord of Angmar]

Balrogs certainly could not breed with other Balrogs or other Maiar in general. Whether they could breed with any other species is debatable, but I doubt it. Something about the fact that they are constantly ablaze makes it seem rather hard to envision any creature mating with them.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Wel, aren't Balrogs corrupted Maia, and as such cannot breed? Maia cannot breed, and although tolkien said they could in his earliest writing, he later corrrected this, i think.

[The Saucepan Man]

Balrogs certainly could not breed with other Balrogs or other Maiar in general.

Why not? Is this explicitly stated anywhere? For, if it is not, I don't see why they shouldn't have had the capacity to reproduce. After all they are incarnate, and there is at least one other instance of an incarnate Maiar reproducing (Melian). Also, it is arguable that Dragons were incarnate Maia, and equally arguable that they bred.

[Lord of Angmar]

I was under the impression from having read another thread that Ainur could not procreate, and that Melian was an exception because her child was not fully Maiar but in fact Half-Elven. I shall try to dredge up that thread and provide a link. My humble apologies if I am wrong.

Cheers,
Angmar

[Morgoth the Great]

i dont think(and please note its just an opinion) but i doubt that the Balrogs could mate with bare Maia spirits to create Balrogs. They would prehaps make a creature that is between the two, but not an exact Balrog. But on the other hand, they may also create something of even greater power than either of the two. its just a matter of opinion i suppose.

[BeeBombadil]

Given the biological imperative that all creatures have to procreate and pass along their genes, the better question would be, does anyone have any proof that Balrogs did produce offspring? The lack of offspring or divisions in an organic organism usually means reproduction is, for some reason, biologically impossible.

Baby balrogs, anyone?

[Altariel]

Hm... somehow it seems unlikely to me, but I don't have any concrete evidence for or against.

But the Maiar were created rather than born, I think; the only record we have of a Maia procreating is Melian...

Perhaps only, erm, crossbreeding? is possible. In which case, it would certainly be... painful... O_o Something about the flames, ya know...

[Gurthang]

I doubt they could reproduce. They were made for one purpose, to destroy other beings. They had no thoughts of love or pleasure, just kill, kill, kill.

And if they could procreate, what would have stopped them from multiplying enough to overrun the world by themselves. They were extremely powerful(When banded together, they defeated Ungoliant, who had it in her power to contend with a Vala) and if they could spawn, then the ensuing force could have easily overwhelm any others.

The simple answer is no, they could and did not.

[Eöl]

first of all, balrogs were corrupted spirits, thus not created and as for their emotions, they acted and thought as others, they were simply evil of nature so they had more 'kill kill kill' thoughts than normal spirits smilies/biggrin.gif

But i do agree that they couldn't reproduce, otherwise i see no reason why they wouldn't do so.

[Rumil]

On the question of Balrog lovin', I'd have to say that it's much the same as hedgehogs.

ie. How do Balrogs 'mate'? - - CAREFULLY!


Certainly Morgoth himself seems to have harboured some illicit thoughts when Luthien was dancing before him. Whether he would have been capable of producing offspring is another question. The Balrogs, however, having chosen their fiery demeanour, seem to have put that possibility out of the question, except for Balrog-on Balrog action maybe.

[Lord of Angmar]

Certainly Morgoth himself seems to have harboured some illicit thoughts when Luthien was dancing before him.

There is a difference between thought and action. Morgoth would not have been able to successfully mate with Luthien, nor, for that matter, with any other being in Arda. I believe the Balrogs probably fall under the same category, being inherently corrupt and also having origins as demigods, of whom there is no record of successful procreation.

[Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar]

Please correct me when i err in my reasoning:
1. Maia cannot procreate (the only exception being Melian, and this is because she was with an elf)
2. Balrogs are Maia (corrupted Maia)
3. Balrogs cannot reproduce except with creatures
4. It would be impossible to create momre balrogs, but it would be possible (although almost impossible), to create half-balrog, half-orc creatures

Any responses?

[Lord of Angmar]

The first two, as far as I know, are correct. I am not so sure about the last two.

[doug*platypus]

they are constantly ablaze Actually, I was not under this impression. I believe that the "mane" of Durin's Bane was "kindled" as he leaped across the fires at Gandalf and the Fellowship, implying that it was not on fire previously.

I think that Rumil brings up a very interesting point: The Balrogs, however, having chosen their fiery demeanour, seem to have put that possibility out of the question Perhaps it was not in the nature of any of the Balrogs to produce offspring, to create anything. So possibly, it was not in the nature of many of the Maiar. Melian was the only angelic being to have a child. It seems this may have been due to one of the three following reasons: She was the only Maia for which this was part of her nature. or unions between Maiar and Elves were permitted, but those between Maiar and Maiar were not. or Thingol and Melian were the sole exception to a rule against the Maiar having children, allowed by Eru.Although this is only really the result of speculation, and it doesn't look like anyone has seen anything definitive written by JRRT.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Fantastic thread title.

As for Melian, perhaps it was her 'destiny' or her 'fate' that she should bear a child, and that she was one of those special beings in Middle-earth that we call a;

One-of-a-kind.

[Finwe]

Melian was unique because she was the only "recorded" Maia to fall in love with one of the Eruhini. I suppose if a Balrog fell in love with an Elf, things would be different, but I highly doubt that they'd get a "dispensation" from the Powers Above. smilies/biggrin.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

As far as I am aware, there is nothing to suggest that Melian was the only incarnate Maia capable of reproduction. Equally, I am not aware that there is anything to suggest that one incarnate Maia could not mate with another incarnate Maia.

But it does beg the question as to why Balrogs did not breed amongst themselves. Perhaps the answer is that they were all took male form. Those who are referred to specifically certainly seems to be male.

But that does not preclude the possibility that Balrogs bred with Elves or Humans, or possibly even Orcs, to produce offspring which, while not as powerful as fully-fledged Balrogs, would nevertheless be pretty powerful in their own right.

[Olorin_TLA]

Hmm...consider the Annals (quick typo correction...I just wrote Anals of Aman smilies/eek.gif ) of Aman...it introduces in its narrative the idea that the Balorgs are Maiar, and then says that Morgoth multiplied them.

I seem to remember there being a thing about disincarnate Ainur not being able to reproduce, so either it meant M got more Maiar to join, OR they incarnated themselves and created little spawn.

But then again, would Eru allow the latter?

Argh.

[burrahobbit]

osanwe-kenta: "Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.
"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate."

Look here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000045).