Tom and Goldberry. . . ?

[MallornLeaf]

who were they? (in your opinion). personally, I think Tom must have been a Maiar because the ring had no power over him. Some of my friends think that Goldberry was Nimrodel, and I tend to agree with them. what do you all think?

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

<font color=gold>Check out this link - http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000746 - It is to a past thread titled "Who/What is Tom Bombadil." You're questions should be answered there.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

I don't really care who he is, he's just the best all around. smilies/wink.gif

[ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]

[obloquy]

YEAH MAIA MAKES SENSE BECAUSE THE RING DOESN'T HAVE POWER OVER MAIAR!!! OH WAIT IT DOES

[TarElendil]

it never clearly states what/who Bombadil and Goldberry are.
I for one think Tolkien purposefully wrote in these two with a very little amount of information on their history. He modeled bombadil after one of his childrens' toys, afterall.

[Mornie Alantie]

There are millions of reasons why Tom is a Maiar, one is that he's been around since time began and the only way he couldn't be a maiar is if he was Illuvitar. That would be sad. I'm one of the Friends who say Nimrodel = Goldberry cause Tom found her by the river and that is why she is called the River daughter, and Nimrodel was lost and not heared of again. She was going to one of the Havens with Amroth.


actually this fits
(its a joke take no offence)

Nimrodel+madness=Goldberry+Tom

[burrahobbit]

There are millions of reasons why Tom is a Maiar

No, there is only one reason, and that is that you don't know what he is.

one is that he's been around since time began and the only way he couldn't be a maiar is if he was Illuvitar.

He could also avoid being a Maia if he was Something Else.

Nimrodel = Goldberry

No.

[*Varda*]

burrahobbit what are your reasons for saying there is no chance Goldberry could be Nimrodel? I'm not saying she is, I'm just wondering why you're so sure she isn't. Enlighten the rest of us please.

[Mornie Alantie]

There are so many ifs in The Lord of the Rings that You would have to Tolkien to Know, and even then. But there are other reasons, not millions but a couple, for one the ring doesn't affect him. Two how could he be so old, what is he an elf, maiar or an Ent? Three he loves trees and such so he could easily be discribed as a Maiar. Not that he definitely is.

Im not sure about Goldberry but I think it is a good hunch.

Why so negative Burrahobbit? What are your thoughts?

[TarElendil]

its a possibility that goldberry is nimrodel, but in tolkiens works you will never find enough sufficient evidence to definately say that she is or isnt.
Its a possibility tom is a maia or even the remnant of some powerful and forgotten people. Its hard to say and the answer will forever be hidden. I think Tolkien put Tom in as he is on purpose. To give a sense of mystery to bombadil.
and anyways he also put them in to please his children. he modled bombadil after one of their toys

[burrahobbit]

Nimrodel Loved Amroth, Goldberry loved Tom. It is unnatural for an Elf to love two people.

In the part of the story that includes Goldberry the hobbits had yet to encounter many Elves, Sam especially would have been amazed at Goldberry's Elven nature if she had in fact been an Elf, but he says nothing to the effect.

[burrahobbit]

But there are other reasons, not millions but a couple, for one the ring doesn't affect him. Two how could he be so old, what is he an elf, maiar or an Ent? Three he loves trees and such so he could easily be discribed as a Maiar.

1: The ring effects Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron, all three of whom are Maia.

2: Shelob was also rather old. And Old Man Willow. Ungoliant would also probably have still been around, but she ate herself.

3: I also love trees. Am I a Maia?

[TarElendil]

ungoliant was a maiar if you read carefully in the Silmarillion. which means shelob would also be atLEAST part maiar.

[burrahobbit]

I have, she isn't. She's a giant spider that eats things. Only 5 Maiar ever had to eat (guess which ones). Ungoliant, on the other hand, was forced to eat herself so as not to die of starvation (and instead died of the opposite of starvation).

[TarElendil]

"..in the beginning she was one one of those that he corrupted to his service."

[Sharkû]

"The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda..."

Ungoliant as a Maia is a free interpretation not based on concrete text.

As for Nimrodel=Goldberry, I suggest a quick look into The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. I have yet to see an Elf that lives at the bottom of a river with her mother. That rebukes it furthr, apart from the valid reason burrahobbit already provided.

As for Tom himself, I continue to wonder why people are so sure that Tolkien lied to us about him.

[ June 17, 2002: Message edited by: Sharku ]

[MallornLeaf]

The Ring effects three other maia: Saruman, Sauron, and Gandalf

First of all, the ring effects those three b/c for one, sauron made ther ring. and two, Saruman and Gandalf were sent to ME to "deal with" the ring. but it didn't effect the balrog, who is also a maiar. that is because the balrog did not care about the ring, whereas the three that burrahobbit mentioned do. Besides, if we are going on that note alone, what else would Tom be then, Illuvitar or a Valar? I don't think so. and Goldberry could be Nimrodel because for one, why not? and also, where does it say that elves can't love more than once? I think that's just an idea of burrahobbit's. No offense burrahobbit, but why so negative?

[Mornie Alantie]

You Guys this is about Tom And how and what he is. Same with Goldberry not how Maiar are effect by the ring But couldn't a maiar
not be effected if he was made like that by Illuvitar?

[burrahobbit]

but it didn't effect the balrog, who is also a maiar. that is because the balrog did not care about the ring

Bilbo did not care about the Ring. Bilbo was affected by the ring. Also, I would wager that the Balrog was affected in that he was drawn to see what it was.

Besides, if we are going on that note alone

We aren't.

what else would Tom be then, Illuvitar or a Valar?

No. Tom is Something Else.

and Goldberry could be Nimrodel because for one, why not?

No, she can't be. Did you read Sharku's post above?

and also, where does it say that elves can't love more than once?

HoME 10 Laws and Customs of the Eldar, HoME 12 Shibboleth of Finrod

I think that's just an idea of burrahobbit's.

You are wrong.

No offense burrahobbit, but why so negative?

Such is the mystery of burrahobbit.

[obloquy]

how do you know the ring had no effect on the balrog?

good luck spelling everything out, burrahobbit. i'd imagine you're in for an experience similar to teaching turkeys algebra.

[Mornie Alantie]

Hey Burrawobbit

What is your Ideas on who Tom is huh? you have criticized everybody elses and put us back where we started so what is it?

[burrahobbit]

Tom is Tom. It's not so difficult, really.

[Gandalf_theGrey]

I've got to admit, burrahobbit.

You make a good point. smilies/smile.gif

* bows *

Gandalf the Grey

[Legolas]

Copy and paste Standard Bombadil explanation...

Ready. Go.

It's quite clear he is an enigma. He fits under no other title of the beings we are aware of. Tolkien made this quite clear in his letters.

"And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."
(and later...)
"...he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyze the feeling precisely."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 144

"...I kept him in, and as he was, because he represents certain things otherwise left out."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 153

He cannot be Eru:

"There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 181

He cannot be a Maiar because all of the Maiar we are aware of in Middle Earth (Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron, for example) are somehow under the influence of the ring, which has no effect on Bombadil whatsoever.

He cannot be a Valar, for Tolkien states in The Book of Lost Tales (Part One), that "Melko was there before them...", with "them" meaning the Valar.

Bombadil had been in Middle-earth since before Melkor's arrival, as stated by Bombadil himsefl in The Fellowship of the Ring:
"'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"

It also seems plain logical that if Bombadil was a Valar or Maiar, Gandalf, Saruman, etc. would recognize another of their race (Ainur).

Tom is Tom. It's not so hard, really.

If nothing else, this quote...

"And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

...should remove all thoughts from your mind about Tom being anything but Tom, an entity.

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[The Silver-shod Muse]

Nicely put, Legalos. I couldn't agree more.

[Mornie Alantie]

Legalos, Burrahobbit thank you for your exesive amount of wisdom on this subject. smilies/smile.gif
Burrahobbit, you've enlightened me to the truth, I really couldn't agree more with you other than that Tom, who is Tom, is Tom.
Legalos your probably right about Tom just "being" whatever he is.

P.S. Burrahobbit how old re you and how many time hve you read LOTR, if it is multiple, I might show a little more respect

P.P.S. Seriously though, thanks or the descussion with me (and a few others) cause they are good for having in the LOTR. My couin knows I do it a lot.

[*Varda*]

Burrahobbit, i read your earlier post again and I have a question to ask if you could shed any light on it?

Nimrodel loved Amroth. Goldberry loved Tom. It is unnatural for an elf to love two people.

Maybe i'm stupid, or read a family tree in the Encylopedia of Arda wrong, but it seemed to me that Finwe first married Miriel, and later married Indis.

Could some one explain? Have I got it wrong?

[burrahobbit]

Mornie Alantie, I'm 18, a pisces, I enjoy long walks on the beach, and I've read The Lord of the Rings once all the way through. But I took my time while reading it so as to take in as much as possible. Not to mention the variegated information obtained on this forum since its inception (which I was witness to). See that 62 over there? It ought to be a 3.

Maybe i'm stupid, or read a family tree in the Encylopedia of Arda wrong, but it seemed to me that Finwe first married Miriel, and later married Indis.

He did, but that wasn't a good thing for him to have done. There was some scandal about it, the talk of gossip for YEARS.

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Sharkû]

for 1440 years at least.

[obloquy]

burra wants your 3, Sharkey.

[burrahobbit]

I do. Sharku is a number thief!

[Amarantha Gamwich-Baggins]

I think and am pretty sure Tom and Gold were nature spirits. Other examples of this could be Ungolant or those rock giants Bilbo, Gandalf and the dwarfs ran into in the Hobbit or the ents and/or Old man willow. All mysterious creatures that seem close to their surroundings. They all have one thing in common also: they wheren't in Fellowship of the ring. smilies/wink.gif

[Mornie Alantie]

Ah whatever we each have are oppinions and they aren't gonna change. Im 15 but Ive read the LOTR 3 or 4 time, silmarilion 4 or 5 times, the hobbit a few times, and unfinished tales twice. Some of my friends call me obsessed and others say I have too much time on my hands. smilies/smile.gif

[Legolas]

Giants are spirits?

"I think and am pretty sure" - but is there any evidence?

[Amarantha Gamwich-Baggins]

well what explanation do you have for all them? It's the easiest one. I'm not saying it's the all out true answer.

[Aiwyn of the Eorlingas]

On Goldberry:
She's the River-daughter, as said multiple times. This strikes me as her being
a) Herself (like the 'Tom is Tom' theory...which I agree with)
b) A spirit, embodiment, etc of nature or the river, or something else of that sort.
And Tom?
a) Tom is Tom'
b) Tom is something similar to Goldberry's b, only not of the river.
Either way, it doesn't affect the genius of the story as much as, oh say, Gandalf turning out to actually be a very hairy hobbit on stilts would, so take your pick.
Though I haven't read the books as much as the rest of you have, so that's just my opinion.
Good luck with your...disscusion.

[Amarantha Gamwich-Baggins]

oh gosh, what am I thinking, there's a lot of easy explanations for Goldberry (at least, still not any for Tom). Water sprite, water nymph, demi god (half god) and some kind of a siren (to the hobbits at lest). Hmm she might have been a demi god that was a descended (some how) to Ulmo. I remember reading at one site that she might have been a human that drowned in the Withywindle and came back as a "nature sprit" (which wouldn't really explain who her mother (river-woman) was).

[*Varda*]

<font color=white> I also read an article on the Internet about what Tom and Goldberry really were. Although I'm somewhat skeptical about this, it considered the possibility that maybe they were Aule and Yavanna. If it weren't so late (after midnight) and I weren't so tired, I would spend more time and put down the reasons just now, but you can think over them for now.

~*Varda Elentari*~

[burrahobbit]

Don't trust everything that you see on the internet.

[Valedain]

Since this thread has come back, I'll add my two cents.

Every living, intelligent thing in Tolkien's universe can be divided into several groups:

1) Iluvatar
2) Ainur
3) Children of Iluvatar
4) Creations of the Valar, sanctioned by Iluvatar
5) Perversions of preexisting creatures

I believe Tom and Goldberry are Ainur. Ainur can be divided into:

a) Valar
b) Maiar
c) Melkor (sometimes accounted a Vala)
d) Unclassified Ainur

Note the following, from the Silm: With the Valar came other spirits whose beings also began before the World, of the same order of the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers.

Tom has the basic characteristics of an Ainu; immortality and he existed before Arda was made. However, he cannot be a Maia; the Maiar came with the Valar, and as someone has pointed out above, Tom was in Arda before the Valar. Nor is Tom a helper of the Valar. He cannot be a Vala, , so that leaves unclassified Ainu. Exactly what he is doing there, why he is there, remains unknown; as Tolkien said, he's an enigma.

BTW, one person of the Valar is a Maia, several are Maiar. Note that adding an -r makes it plural.

[Bêthberry]

Yes, indeed, burrahobbit:

Don't trust everything that you see on the internet.

*curtsies to your way with words*

Bethberry

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[burrahobbit]

I like the distinction that you make between Maia and Ainur. Tom is certainly not a Vala or a Maia. He could be an Ainu, but Melkor was the first of them to come into Arda, and Tom was in Arda before Melkor.

[*Varda*]

<font color=white> Don't trust everything you see on the Internet

Perhaps you missed the part where i said "Although I'm somewhat skeptical about this".

Although this article wasn't just any rubbish off the Internet it did include a lot of references etc.(although it'd be more useful if i had the books).

I commented on it just to see what people thought of the idea.

To summarise pretty much what it said -

Goldberry wears green, as does Yavanna (I thought that was pointless - many people wear green. Does that make them Yavanna?)
Tom has no temptation with the ring and Aule made all substances ie minerals, metals.
Neither Tom or Aule are particularly posessive.

The writer also feels the ability to dominate the ring indicates a Vala.

None of this, of course explains why on earth Aule and Yavanna would be in the Old Forest in the first place.

I personally don't believe Tom is Aule and Goldberry is Yavanna, but i thought it was an interesting idea and that's why i brought it up.

~*Varda Elentari*~

[burrahobbit]

I saw that. I could refute it much more than you have, but I am lazy and won't. I would have refuted it last night, but I am lazy and don't take that particular argument seriously.

[the phantom]

Love reading your posts burrahobbit! I also agree that it isn't really possible to classify Tom. I've always kind of equated Tom with Arda, like he's the embodiment of Middle Earth. At Elrond's council something is said like "Tom cannot resist the enemy unless that power is within the earth itself", or something like that. Goldberry? I guess she's the embodiment of other things in ME, rivers, rain, maybe flowers too. Anyway, I don't care. Tom is just Tom and he's cool.

[burrahobbit]

I think that I have just completely changed my opinion of saying what Tom is. Do you know what Tom is?

Goldberry: Tom is.

Before anyone thinks otherwise, I'm not saying this to be flip, it fits in later.

Let's figure out what we know about Tom.

He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

When did the Dark Lord come from Outside?

Melkor too was there from the first

The Dark Lord came in right away. The Dark lord was the first in, even.

What else was around when the Valar came in?

But when the Valar Entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on pointto begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark.

Nothing else was around when the Valar came in, save only Eä itself.

How can Tom manage to be around before the Dark Lord when the Dark Lord was the first thing into Eä?

I would say, now, that it is because Tom is Eä, or at least an embodiment thereof.

Power to defy our Enemy is not in [Tom], unless such power is in the Earth itself.

Eä: The World, the material Universe; Eä, meaning in Elvish 'It is'

Tom is.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[burrahobbit]

Thanks, the phantom, I love writing them. Your post has inspired me, thanks.