Where do Hobbits come from

[Duncariel]

Ok, this may seem like a weird question, but where do they come in? I know that the Elves were the firstborn, the men came second, Aule created the Dwarves, and Melkor destroyed Elves and came up with his orcs. What happened to the hobbits?

[burrahobbit]

Men.

[Iarwain]

I'm pretty sure that they're the descendants of the Druadan (sp?), who were shorter men that were excellent stone carvers. I don't quite remember which book I read that in, maybe it was UT...


Iarwain

[Bêthberry]

The eagles bring them in little baskets which are left outside the smials.

[burrahobbit]

I'm pretty sure that they're the descendants of the Druadan (sp?), who were shorter men that were excellent stone carvers. I don't quite remember which book I read that in, maybe it was UT...

I'm pretty sure that's not right.

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Hobbits were definitely Men. They were not descendants of the Drûgs. Professor Tolkien very clearly states that the two are different.

The Drûgs or Púkel-men are not however to be confused with or thought of as a mere variant on the hobbit theme. They were quite different in physical shape and appearance. Their average height (four feet) was only reached by exceptional hobbits; they were of heavier and stronger build; and their facial features were unlovely (judged by general human standards). Physically they shared the hairlessness of the lower face; but while the head-hair of the hobbits was abundant (but close and curly), the Drûgs had only sparse and lank hair on their heads and none at all on their legs and feet. In character and temperament they were at times merry and gay, like hobbits, but they had a grimmer side to their nature and could be sardonic and ruthless; and they had or were credited with strange or magical powers. (The tales, such as 'The Faithful Stone', that speak of their transferring part of their 'powers' to their artefacts, remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundation of the Barad-dûr and to the Ruling Ring.) Also the Drûgs were a frugal folk, and ate sparingly even in times of peace and plenty, and drank nothing but water. In some ways they resembled rather the Dwarves: in build and stature and endurance (though not in hair); in their skill in carving stone; in the grim side of their character; and in ',strange powers'. Though the 'magic' skills with which the Dwarves were credited were quite different; also the Dwarves were much grimmer; and they were long-lived, whereas the Drûgs were short-lived compared with other kinds of Men.

...Hobbits on the other hand were in nearly all respects normal Men, but of very short stature. They were called 'halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar(especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet. Their height at the periods concerned was usually more than three feet for men, though very few ever exceeded three foot six; women seldom exceeded three feet. They were not as numerous or variable as ordinary Men, but evidently more numerous and adaptable to different modes of life and habitat than the Drûgs, and when they are first encountered in the histories already showed divergences in colouring, stature, and build, and in their ways of life and preferences for different types of country to dwell in.

'Of Dwarves and Men', Peoples of Middle Earth, HoME vol XII

The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Fok and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals). and abnormally, for humans. free from ambition or greed of wealth.

Footnote to a letter to Milton Waldman, 1951

... my 'hobbits' were in any case of dissimilar sort, a diminutive branch of the human race.

Letter to Robert Lancelyn Green, 1971

[ February 03, 2003: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

[Anorien]

ah, ahem. i think it's time we sat down, and had that little talk about the birds and the bees... smilies/biggrin.gif

[Birdland]

Yeah, but nobody is quite able to explain those feet.

[burrahobbit]

Hairy feet are sexy, Birdland.

[Birdland]

Yes, Burrahobbit, it's a look to be envied. But how did it come about that Hobbits are on average 3 1/2 feet tall with disproportionately big feet? Is it genetics or artifice?

I mean, the Chinese had foot binding. Did the Hobbits have foot stretching? The Good Professor just left us hanging by our toes on that question, spending far too much time explaining Elven family feuds and such like.

[Tar-Palantir]

Well, you know what they say about big feet...

So it could have a been a favorable genetic quality that just got bred into being, so to speak. smilies/smile.gif

[ February 04, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[LaurenGreenleaf]

I think at some point a Man got crossed with a half-elf half-mole kinda thing, but i'm pretty sure that isn't right. Elves and moles? smilies/tongue.gif

[hobbitlass]

Last September I posted the same question and got some interesting information and theories. If you are interested here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002172).

[Arvedui III]

Really wierd cross breeds between men & dwarfs. (How that happened, I don't know)

[Deathwail]

If the race of Men can produce Hobbits then could they of also produced the Giants like the ones spoke of in the Hobbit? Would kinda make sence that if Men can be tiny that they could also be huge.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

Well, you know what they say about big feet... A study was conducted in 2002...there is no correlation... smilies/rolleyes.gif
I had thought they were just a kind of branch off humans. But about them being free from greed and ambition...what about Sméagol?

[Arwen1858]

But about them being free from greed and ambition...what about Sméagol?
Wasn't that mainly the Ring getting to him?

[Sharkû]

Sméagol was somewhat of an outsider before he found the Ring, no doubt for good reasons.
Or look at Sandyman -- hobbits are really just Men after all, not some elevated, pure ideal.

[Arothir]

Hobbits had hairy feet because they lived in the north. They needed hair to keep their feet warm. It's just plain old evolution. I have no idea how accurate this is, I was just bored.

[The Saucepan Man]

Hobbits had hairy feet because they lived in the north.

So Scandinavians and Canadians have hairy feet? smilies/wink.gif

Mind you, I live at roughly the same latitude as the Shire is supposed to have been and last time I checked, my feet were relatively hairless ...

... oh, hang on ... smilies/eek.gif smilies/biggrin.gif

[GreatWarg]

Didn't human have ancestors (if you are a scientific person and believe in the theory of evolution) that were hairy and had thick-soled feet? Well, we Men developed boots and shoes and the like, and hobbits didn't! So therefore, they retained some of the qualities of our ancestors, including exceptionally hair feet.

As to their height... Who knows?

[Finwe]

(Well, that certainly proves that little theory wrong, doesn't it Saucy? smilies/wink.gif)

I don't presume to know the nuances of evolution in Middle-earth, so I will try to apply some of the principles of human evolution here on Earth to this particular situation. Most of the time, a creature evolves when there is a change in its environment, and its initial "body" or "qualities" weren't completely suitable to survive comfortably in that new environment. If the reason for Hobbits having hairy feet is that they lived in cold weather, then they would have had narrow, beak-like noses, would have been probably a wee bit taller, and would have probably had hair all over their bodies (not just their feet) to help protect them from the cold.

The other possibility is that Hobbits were just a sort of "freak of nature," and that they just, sort of, well... happened.

[GreatWarg]

Well, then Finwe, does that mean that the hobbits' environment hasn't changed since the time of our ancestors? Maybe they used to be skinnier before they crossed the Baranduin into the Shire. I see strange possibilities...

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, that certainly proves that little theory wrong, doesn't it Saucy?

So Hobbits just happened to ovelook the practicalities of footwear in their development? Hmm. smilies/wink.gif

Despite being an evolutionist in terms of our own development, I see little scope for evolution in Middle-earth. We know from the Silmarillion that Men and Elves awoke in much the same form as they appear in LotR. As I have posted elsewhere on a similar thread, I just don't see any scope for the evolution of 6 foot plus Men into 3 to 4 foot Hobbits, with the addition of hairy feet, in the time between Men awakening and the first appearance of Hobbits.

No, a branch of Mankind they may be, but I believe that Hobbits awaoke just as we see them in the Hobbit and LotR.

[Finwe]

Well, the whole "leathery-feet" development isn't necessarily attributed to evolution. Anyone who constantly walks about barefoot for a good thirty years will get feet of leather.

[Legolas]

No, a branch of Mankind they may be, but I believe that Hobbits awoke just as we see them in the Hobbit and LotR.

I don't think so. Smeagol and Deagol were ancestors of hobbits, but not exactly hobbits themselves, as I recall. I'll have to look around for the quotes.

[The Saucepan Man]

I don't think so. Smeagol and Deagol were ancestors of hobbits, but not exactly hobbits themselves, as I recall.

I don't imagine them to have been that much different, certainly not in physical terms (particularly stature).

As for the development of Men, there was, of course, scope for development in culture. This clearly occured. The Numenoreans developed an advanced society, while some other strains of Man appear to have been less culturally advanced. And the Edain clearly had greater longetivity than others of their race, although that is , I think, attributable to the influence of Eru, through the Valar.

But I just can't see any scope for men who awoke 6 foot tall or more to shrink to 3 foot within two to three thousand years.

[Finwe]

I think that the change in culture could be attributed to the degree of interaction with the Eldar. The only reason (well, perhaps the main reason) that the Numenoreans were so advanced for Edain, was that they were heavily influenced by the Elves.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Well, the whole "leathery-feet" development isn't necessarily attributed to evolution. Anyone who constantly walks about barefoot for a good thirty years will get feet of leather.

But surely this walking around did not affect the tiny children! We are nowhere told that younger hobbits were any different in this regard.

I think we have to accept Tolkien's statement in his Letters that they were a branch of the human race. Even today on earth, we get people over seven feet tall and pygmies who are considerably shorter.

The intriguing question is how and when did hobbits diverge? Hobbits aren't heard of till 1000-1050 of the T.A., yet they are already separated into three clear groups in different living in different regions near the Anduin River. So not only do you have a clear divergence from the main human stock in terms of height and hair distribution, but even three distinct sub-groups within the Hobbit offshoot: Harfoot, Stoor, and Fallohide. We're not just talking about three cultural sub-groups, but clear differences in skin coloring (people often forget, but the Harfoot had nut-brown skin!), facial hair, height, build, personality, etc.

Unless we want to suspend the laws of nature totally, this much divergence implies that hobbits had been in existence a good, long while. So where were there before 1000 T.A.? Why do we have at least vague references to a whole string of folk: Ents, dwarves, Easterlings, the Edain, Black Numenoreans, the Maia and Ainur,etc.in Elvish records but no hobbits?

There are no clear answers on this, but I don't think you can ignore the fact that hobbits had to have been around a long while before 1000 T.A.

[ November 08, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[ArathorofBarahir]

I think that hobbits descended from a mixtures Dwarves and Men, why I think this I don't know it just seems logical to me.

[Olorin_TLA]

Hobbits were once men, but now they're shorter.

It's not hard to think of, either. We've been around on the earth for 150,000 eyars, at last count. Now, we ahve many pygmy tribes, one of which has the remarkable feature of two-toed feet!

In HoMeX Tolkien decided to shunt the Awakening of Man back several millenia because of the differeneces between all types of men not having long enough to arise earlier (nor the technological advances) and because of new cosmological theories.

So in that huge timescale, what's so strange about pygmies developing with hairy feet?

[Olorin_TLA]

Hobbits had no facial hair (like the native South American peoples (since they were descended form Mongols and Native MAericans, does that mean they too didn't have any facial hair?) (mostly) Arathor, but even women dwarves had beards (and kids too!) so I doubt they married Hobbits. smilies/smile.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

Everyone seems to assume that all Men awoke in the same form as the Edain that we see in the Silmarillion, and that Hobbits evolved from them. But evolution seems to me to be inimicable to Tolkien's works. Is it really so difficult to imagine that Hobbits awoke in much the same form as the 3 foot tall hairy-footed creatures that we see in LotR? Not all of the Race of Man had to awake in the form of the Edain.

[Olorin_TLA]

Well in LotR's prologue it says that Hobbits nowadays are even more diminuative, so I don't think it's hard to imagine them awakening duradain-like in size.

[dedoublya]

No no no, you have it all wrong. What was happening in middle-earth at the time was kind of like an inquisition of hobbits.
Hobbits are in fact, really small people. Freaks of nature that people couldn't accept. So they shipped them all off to this small corner of the globe to live, with Gandalf the Warder coming to check up on them every so often.
The shire that is depicted in LOTR is a sugar-coated version of an asylum for small people and "freaks" and it shrouds the real truth that the people of middle-earth were really all just bigots. I mean come on, is it that hard to comprehend? The whole Dwarf-Elf conflict?
But no one has heard of the shire, you say. Come on, Everyone's heard of it, just nobody talks about it. Its one of those things, they just like to pretend they don't know about it. So when a couple of these "four foot freaks" comes along, they panic and feign surprise.
Its so obvious isn't it? But good cover up, Tolkien.

[ November 13, 2003: Message edited by: dedoublya ]

[Finwe]

Hmmm... as much as we'd love to believe that, I don't think Lord of the Rings was actually a big cover-up story for the mistreatment of the short Big-Foot creatures.

The Hobbits could have evolved from already short Men. I don't think ALL of them were six-foot-something with physiques worthy of Mr. Universe. There had to have been some variety.

[Duncariel]

Wow. When I posted this thread, I had never expected to get so many, hmmm, interesting asweres...

[Rindoien, elf of Lothlorien]

No no no, you have it all wrong. What was happening in middle-earth at the time was kind of like an inquisition of hobbits.
Hobbits are in fact, really small people. Freaks of nature that people couldn't accept. So they shipped them all off to this small corner of the globe to live, with Gandalf the Warder coming to check up on them every so often.
The shire that is depicted in LOTR is a sugar-coated version of an asylum for small people and "freaks" and it shrouds the real truth that the people of middle-earth were really all just bigots. I mean come on, is it that hard to comprehend? The whole Dwarf-Elf conflict?
But no one has heard of the shire, you say. Come on, Everyone's heard of it, just nobody talks about it. Its one of those things, they just like to pretend they don't know about it. So when a couple of these "four foot freaks" comes along, they panic and feign surprise.
Its so obvious isn't it? But good cover up, Tolkien.

Erm.. you're joking, right?

I never really thought about how hobbits came about. They just WERE. As it says about Gollum's kin, they were 'river folk'. Men do change height actually over evolution, I think. In the middle ages people were considerably shorter. But, you have really stunned me on this one. I don't know.

[Ainaserkewen]

I can't believe that Hobbits are merely "small-men" There are so many questions that hint that they are so much more. Look at today...we have dwarves(little people) and midgets but they aren't "hobbits" I don't think that through a couple of mutant genes can come an entire race, and out of nowhere?!

No, there's something special about Hobbits that people fail to see. They were meant to be in my opinion, somebody had the idea to create them, maybe another Valar, maybe Eru himself, as companions to the three other free peoples. Remember...hobbits came in three distinced groups. Their names fail me at the moment, but there was one connected to each of the three other races, and they carried specific characteristics along with them, even when they merged with other kinds of hobbits.

The idea that men where bred with other creatures to create hobbits is rediculous. It doesn't work...I tried as a child to get my cat and dog to have pikkens(puppies/kittens, you get it) Needless to say it never happened. I think hobbits where made for a reason and are one of the initial mysteries of Tolkien's world. Why were they bred, what were they to do and so on. Like the afterlife of men, dragons and Tom Bombadil, perhaps we are only left to guess, and I daresay that Tolkien himself never had much of an idea, and if he did, it was hidden.

[Noxomanus]

Well it is impossible to crossbreed cats and dogs because they just aren't closely related. Dogs can't even be crossed with foxes. (though they can breed with wolf,coyote or jackal)Cats are serious interbreeders when given the chance;all kinds of small-cat hybrids are known,as well as crossbreeds between tiger/lion and lion/leopard.
I don't think Hobbits were hybrids,though I like to think of Orcs as being twisted creatures with blood from all other humanoid races.

[Ainaserkewen]

I know, it's chromosome number thing. If the animals are to produce offspring, they need to have the same number of chromosomes to do it. However, I didn't know that 10 years ago. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I guess I don't have a problem with Hobbits being descended from Men, since that's obviously what Tolkien said (and he IS the final authority on all things Ea), but why then could they (Smeagol, Bilbo, Frodo) resist the power of the Ring longer than anyone of any other race could???

Any ideas?

[Finwe]

Hobbits were naturally more doughty creatures. They didn't have that desire for power, and deep-seated greed, that is in the hearts of most Men. They were a pastoral folk, and appreciated the simple things in life. But, these seemingly bucolic people, once roused, could be daunting foes. If they had to defend their country, and their loved ones, most Hobbits would have no qualms about picking up weapons and fighting. They fought, when they absolutely needed to. They also had a deep-seated strength that characterizes all of their "heroes." Once that little spark was ignited, nothing short of death could turn them back from their goal. As for resisting the Ring, they just merely had different priorities. The Ring works through greed, deceit, and desire for power. The Hobbits just didn't have that (except for a couple like Lotho and Ted smilies/mad.gif ). They just didn't worry about that, and thus, the Ring didn't really have much of a channel to work with, unless that person bore it over time, in the case of Smeagol, Bilbo, and Frodo.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Yes, I understand that perfectly, but where did that come from if they were basically Men?

[Lyta_Underhill]

I think I liked Bethberry's theory the best! smilies/wink.gif Just think what kind of roosts there would have to be outside the Gamgees' house! smilies/biggrin.gif

As for why hobbits could resist the Ring longer, it is hard to say, but perhaps it is related to their smallness. The Ring gives power to each according to his measure, and the hobbits as a rule just didn't measure very high. Maybe, for this reason, they couldn't conceive of using it for the gaining of power. They just never needed it or even gave it a thought.

Another idea that is kicking around in the vastness of the empty space in my brain is that perhaps their separate and unique physical characteristics were concentrated by the relative isolation of the cultures and societies in Middle Earth in the Third Age. Simply, they interbred, perhaps with these three variations on a theme (Harfoot, Stoor and Fallohide) in close proximity, creating a pocket of Men of VERY different characteristics.

I believe Tolkien had said something to the effect that Smeagol and Deagol were ancestors of what became the Stoors, or something like that, so the Stoors had ancestors as recently as 500 years earlier. Perhaps they only had a limited gene pool and the hobbit variation on Men was the result of a few dominant strains concentrated in a certain geography.

Just a few thoughts! Now back to musing on big, hairy feet... :P

Cheers,
Lyta (who has little hairy feet)

[ November 22, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[ November 23, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[yavanna II]

I agree with whoever it was that said hobbitses were cross-breeds of men & dwarves. Maybe it was like this: a dwarf married a curly-haired woman, but all their offspring had beards on their feet not on their heads. Somewhere in JRRT's books it said that hobbits were smaller than the bearded dwarves. Or maybe a Vala made them as a mockery of Aule & Iluvatar. smilies/wink.gif

[Eol Telemnar]

i think that hobbits came from men. The hairy feet, Maybe it's because they don't wear shoes, that's how I would explain it. It's like those chinese people wearing tiny shoes, which make their feet not grow. In the same way, Hobbits don't wear shoes, which allow a lot of hair to grow, and their feet grow much faster. And it is also because they are from the north smilies/wink.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

And it is also because they are from the north

I refer you to my previous response on that issue. smilies/tongue.gif smilies/wink.gif

[Eol Telemnar]

Men, They came from men. They have hairy feet because they are from the north and they also did not wear shoes, which allowed their feet to grow much bigger, and hair to grow freely. I hope I was at least a little help smilies/wink.gif

[Eol Telemnar]

smilies/eek.gif OOOOOPPPPPS!!! sorry for that! I did not notice my reply in there, (thought it did not enter in) So sorry about the double thing. ill be more careful in the future. smilies/frown.gif

[Firefoot]

I'm really not sure about where hobbits came from - I've had the same question myself actually, but the idea that they came from men seems rather strange. A lot of their characteristics (both physical and their personalities) don't match up at all.

I do have an idea about why they weren't in records though. In TTT when Gandalf, Theoden, Eomer, Aragorn, etc come to Isengard and meet Merry and Pippin Merry comments that the Rohirrim were the only people he had met that knew of Hobbits. Eomer says that they didn't know any tales and that all they knew was that they were a small people who lived in holes. He said that it was said that they didn't do much and could disappear in a twinkling. This could be a reason that there were no records of them if no one thought that they did anything.

[Gil-numen]

The Hobbits(kuduk) cama from the Vales of Anduin and there they would come into contact with Dwarves, Noldo, Sindar, Avari, and the Northmen. They aren't descended from Rohirrim because the most of the hobbits came across the Misty Mts. around the 1100's TA and the Eotheod went to the Vales of Anduin around 1977 TA.

------------------------------
"Show it to me"
Thingol to Beren

[Thulorongil]

There also weren't many actual records of hobbits because most people just thought of them as a fairy tale. If you recall, the Gondorians were surprised to see a halfling in person. They thought they didn't really exist...
hmm...humans thinking that fantasy folk are just fantasy folk and then finding out that they're real and just lived in a distant corner of the world...

[Finwe]

Gil-numen, the Hobbits could have still been related to the Eotheod. Just because their respective "territories" were settled at different times, doesn't necessarily mean that they weren't related.