Game Thread: TIG XCII - Disaster by the Lake

[Boromir88]

Linky (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=17724) to Admin thread.

---

(Insert Night 1 narration)

---

LIVING
Boro...King's secretary

Aganzir...Baker's wife.
Bom...Cobbler
Galadriel55...Cook.
Greenie...Undertaker.
Inziladun...Furrier of Lake-town.
Kath...Baker.
Kitanna...Cooper.
Loslote...Candlestick Maker.
Nogrod...Wine-maker from Dorwiniondil.
Nerwen...Town crier.
Pitchwife...Shepherd.
Sally...most prestigious Musician and Poet of Lake-town.
Shasta...Notable miscreant.

DEAD

----

It be Night 1. No Posting on this thread yet.

Seer send out your birdy. Wolves chatter.

(This is up about an hour before the Game DL of 8pm. So Day 1 will start in just under 25 hours from this post)

[Boromir88]

"Our information tells us the secretary plans on sending word to the Dwarves out of the Lonely Mountain and enlisting their help in rebuilding this town." grumbled an evil figure.

"It appears we must strike make our strike sooner than planned." said another. "We will not succeed in our mission if the village becomes infested with dwarf builders and shop-makers."

The last gave the final approval. "It happens tonight."

---

The townspeople awoke to find a grisly scene in the middle of the village. The man who had arrived at Esgaroth to oversee its rebuilding was laying on the ground, tangled and broken. The King's secretary was dead. And engraved in a stump was a warning.

This village now is under the occupation of the werewolves. We will find reward in our own kind for anyone who aids us. Anyone who tries to flee, we will know. Anyone who opposes us, will end up like this one.

LIVING

Aganzir...Baker's wife.
Bom...Cobbler
Galadriel55...Cook.
Greenie...Undertaker.
Inziladun...Furrier of Lake-town.
Kath...Baker.
Kitanna...Cooper.
Loslote...Candlestick Maker.
Nogrod...Wine-maker from Dorwiniondil.
Nerwen...Town crier.
Pitchwife...Shepherd.
Sally...most prestigious Musician and Poet of Lake-town.
Shasta...Notable miscreant.

DEAD

Boro...King's Secretary (Night 1)

---

It's now Day 1. You know what to do from here.

(Disclaimer: Nothing in the narration has any hidden clues/meanings towards any one's role.)

(Disclaimer 2: There will be no double lynches. In a tied vote the person who was voted for LAST in the tie will be lynched).

[satansaloser2005]

My darling! Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! :(

I will now sequester myself in my quarters until such time as I have composed a suitably morose ballad in his honor.

[Kitanna]

I thought I might actually be the first to post. Curse you, Sally!

It was Greenie, undertakers have the tools for this kind of job!
It was Loslote, candlesticks have been the tools in many a murder in Clue!
It was Shasta, miscreants always do these things!
It was Kit, coopers have...wait...no.

I so rarely get to do the silly post. I'm relishing this! /silly.

[Galadriel55]

No!!! Who's going to eat the best meals now?


To start us off right away, I propose dinner... er, my suspicion list.

Sally is guilty of posting first.
Greenie is guilty of being green.
Bom is a cobbler.
But Inzil is still furrier.
Kath is guilty of competing with me in the world of food.
Agan is guilty of being Kath's wife.
Nerwen is guilty of being fourth-last on the list of living.
Pitchwife is guilty of wearing yellow boots.
Shasta is a notable miscreant. He's guilty.
Kit is guilty because... well, I'll think of something.
Nog is guilty of marking essays.
Lottie is guilty because of her avatar. It has a tail.
I am guilty of daring to joke in my very first post....

Edit: xed with Kit. Darn it! I thought I'll post the first silly post!

[Bom Tombadillo]

*ahem* Reveals please. I am the cobbler. Would the wolves please come forward? Kthxbai.

. . .

Okthxnotsobai.

Boromir88 is suspicious and dead (also, the moderator).
the phantom is not here.
Neither is Folwren.
Nogrod is guilty of having been the bad guy once.
Galadriel55 is guilty of making jokes, suspicion-lists, and joking suspicion-lists.
I am guilty of the same, and hypocrisy.
My Good Twin is guilty of impersonating me.
I am guilty of listing people who aren't here, and of listing the same person more than once on a single list.
Dangit, me.
*neverending guiltiness loop*

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Here be Shasta, full of snark...

'Kay, so we've got... what, after Sally, three variations on the same type of post. Haha. I get that you guys want to be silly but at least be original, for Eru's sake. :rolleyes:

Anyway. So, what, we're not allowed to fight or flee? Pah. I defy these wolves to tell me what I can and can not do.

-Swipes an apple from a vendor's stall and munches on it-

[Inziladun]

Wolves? Really? Did you lot get tired of being ridden by Goblins?

And Bom, are you trying to look suspicious? :rolleyes:

[Bom Tombadillo]

. . . Maybe? ;) Although, why do you think I look suspicious? Do you have something against shoes?

[Loslote]

Bom could be either a) an innocent having fun on Day 1, b) a cobbler having fun on Day 1 so as to attract wolfsies, or c) a wolfsie having fun on Day 1 to look like a cobbler. Either way, I do believe his avatar at the very least is a bit furry for me to be thrilled about any potential trusting snugglewases anytime soon. ;)

[Bom Tombadillo]

*looks confused* Well, of course I'm a cobbler! But I'm also an innocent, and I don't see why I would want to attract wolves.

All joking aside, I'm definitely an innocent, and you should all die for suspecting me. How could you betray the village so?

Okay, all joking really aside this time, honest, ummmmmm . . . Hmm.

^
This is me speechless.

Give me something to talk about, people! OR ELSE. (And make it snappy. You've only got over twelve hours before I can properly check back.)

[Kitanna]

I was hoping for more activity before I went to work. Today will be the worst day for me because of my work schedule. I get home an hour before DL and will have to make a quick and likely random vote decision. So you should all flood the thread with incriminating evidence in the next hour so I can mull it over at work. :p

What's happened in the last few hours...
No one's been serious. Loslote and Inzil both throw out joke-type suspicions of Bom for his admitted silliness. I believe are false suspcions based on the ;) and :rolleyes: that have followed each comment.

And it's been some hours since anyone posted. Is this village trying to make things difficult?

[Galadriel55]

I just had a terrible realisation. This is the last time I will have access to the Downs before DL. :eek::( It's all my stupid schedule! I might have 5 minutes like 2 hours before DL, but it's not enough time to read through the Day. It just happens so that all the days that I can actually participate a bit more are Nights. :(

I'm really sorry about this, guys. Europeans, I now know how you feel.

I should be able to post a bit more toMorrow...

As for the vote - I have absolutely nothing to base it off! I'm drawing names from a hat...

*drumroll*

++NERWEN

I'm sorry, Nerwen. You didn't even post yet. This is the randomness that my darned schedule drives me to.

I wish the village luck, and I'll talk more toMorrow, if this schedule doesn't beat me up completely.

Edit: xed with Kit

[A Little Green]

Bom could be either a) an innocent having fun on Day 1, b) a cobbler having fun on Day 1 so as to attract wolfsies, or c) a wolfsie having fun on Day 1 to look like a cobbler.Cobbler? He doesn't look any more cobblerish than usual. (Not taking into account, of course, that his occupation is "cobbler" - but I think we should forget that before somebody, somewhere, gets confused.) Seriously now, I don't think we can deduce much anything from Bom's posts this far since they have not, at least in my opinion, differed in any remarkable way of the way he plays whatever his role.

Also, I'm not a fan of Gal's vote, though I can relate to her situation of having to vote before anything has really happened. Still, it doesn't seem fair to vote a random player who hasn't even posted yet.

[Kitanna]

Thanks G55 for listening to my "flood the thread with incriminating evidence" statement! /sarcasm

I'm going to go out a limb and say her random vote was probably decided by metagaming. I can't say I like what she did, but on the other hand, I came close to having to do the same thing. There doesn't seem to be much more to say on the subject. She voted for someone who hasn't spoken and she won't be back to make a more informed vote.

Cobbler? He doesn't look any more cobblerish than usual. (Not taking into account, of course, that his occupation is "cobbler" - but I think we should forget that before somebody, somewhere, gets confused.) Seriously now, I don't think we can deduce much anything from Bom's posts this far since they have not, at least in my opinion, differed in any remarkable way of the way he plays whatever his role.
I wouldn't read too much into any of that unless it continues further. It looked like a bunch of Day 1 silliness for all involved.

I'm already late getting dressed and scrapping ice off my car, so I need to go. I will be back an hour before DL. I'm going to try my hardest to read and vote before Day ends.

[Nerwen]

*rings handbell*

Oyez! Oyez! Good people of Esgaroth, honoured guests from the Mountain and Forest, and all travellers from near and far! Be known that Galadriel55 is a sneaking, backstabbing wretch! Let none sample her cooking!

[Inziladun]

Cobbler? He doesn't look any more cobblerish than usual. (Not taking into account, of course, that his occupation is "cobbler" - but I think we should forget that before somebody, somewhere, gets confused.) Seriously now, I don't think we can deduce much anything from Bom's posts this far since they have not, at least in my opinion, differed in any remarkable way of the way he plays whatever his role.

I agree. Bom's doing his standard "suspicious innocent" deal, which can as always be taken many ways.

Thanks G55 for listening to my "flood the thread with incriminating evidence" statement! /sarcasm

I'm going to go out a limb and say her random vote was probably decided by metagaming. I can't say I like what she did, but on the other hand, I came close to having to do the same thing. There doesn't seem to be much more to say on the subject. She voted for someone who hasn't spoken and she won't be back to make a more informed vote.

It's tough to call G55's vote, with so little to go on. Convenient for a baddie, but also understandable for a time-pressed innocent.

*rings handbell*

Oyez! Oyez! Good people of Esgaroth, honoured guests from the Mountain and Forest, and all travellers from near and far! Be known that Galadriel55 is a sneaking, backstabbing wretch! Let none sample her cooking!

Really? And you know this for what reason?

[Aganzir]

So sorry if I am not concentrating properly, A Little Green is sitting in my lap and fondling me. Also, just so that the rest of you know it as well, she and I are not in the same wolfpack (which means that we will spend the game at each other's throats).

*ahem* Reveals please. I am the cobbler. Would the wolves please come forward? Kthxbai.
Hi Cob. If I asked, would you make me a pair of pretty leather boots?

And Bom, are you trying to look suspicious?
Probably. Are you trying to signal to him?

It just happens so that all the days that I can actually participate a bit more are Nights.
What's the point of saying this if you are not going to participate in the night scheming? ;)

Shasta sounds sneaky.

I'll be back later with more content - now I am going to employ my artistic skills for the benefit of those Downers who dare give their home addresses to us sweet and innocent Finns.

[Loslote]

Cobbler? He doesn't look any more cobblerish than usual. (Not taking into account, of course, that his occupation is "cobbler" - but I think we should forget that before somebody, somewhere, gets confused.) Seriously now, I don't think we can deduce much anything from Bom's posts this far since they have not, at least in my opinion, differed in any remarkable way of the way he plays whatever his role.

I don't think I've played with him enough yet - I didn't realize this was standard Bom. Never mind, then. :rolleyes:

As for G55, I've done the same thing as an innocent and as a wolf, so I can't really draw any conclusions based on that vote, much as I'd like to.

Now someone else do something exciting and controversial so we can spend the rest of the Day bickering over that, kthzbai. :D

[Nogrod]

Normal to him or not, jumping all around the place calling himself the cobbler is at best adding to the confusion. At worst it is a decent place to hide for a wolf or a way for a cobbler to signal the wolfsies (if he is not lynched the theory is verified whether he is a wolf, a cobbler or something else).

So even if I see what Greenie and some others say, I'm not going to let Bom slip by just for that being "normal" to him.

That doesn't mean I'm going to vote for him just for that. It will depend on his later posting and on what others do meanwhile.


So I'm joining the group who say the Day is not the best one for me: I'm off to do some homework and then going to a concert. But I'll be back for some time later on the Day (with +2 GMT I need to vote 2-3 hours before the DL).


Any other thoughts after a quick skimming through the thread?

If Galadriel were a gifted she wouldn't have then slipped that "I can actually participate a bit more are Nights" -thing. That would be far too reckless. But could she slip it as a wolf? Or is it just an ordo talking things that are not necessarily to the point regarding the game (as ordos have nothing to do by Night)?

A lot of sillyness in general - which is not bad if it is accompanied by some more sensible stuff (which I do find wanting more or less). So very little to go forth with.

I'll try to get back before I'll leave for the concert and hope I can say something more substantial to claim my right to whine about so few real contributions to the game so far. :rolleyes:

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen
*rings handbell*

Oyez! Oyez! Good people of Esgaroth, honoured guests from the Mountain and Forest, and all travellers from near and far! Be known that Galadriel55 is a sneaking, backstabbing wretch! Let none sample her cooking!

Really? And you know this for what reason?
Clearly you haven't seen the state of her kitchen.:mad:

I don't think I've played with him enough yet - I didn't realize this was standard Bom. Never mind, then.
Well, I don't know why you haven't realised, Lottie, as he's been exactly like this in every other game.

Originally Posted by Inziladun
And Bom, are you trying to look suspicious?
Probably. Are you trying to signal to him?
Hmmn. You know, I'm guessing Boro would actually avoid making the cobbler, well, the cobbler.

EDIT:X'd with Nog; messed up quotes.

[Bom Tombadillo]

M'back! A bit ahead of schedule, though not for long.

Finally, somebody realized that joking is standard for me. I've got naught else to do early Day 1 - could fling accusations and see who jumps, but flinging jokes is more fun.

@Nerwen: Or it might appeal to his sense of humor to make the cobbler the cobbler. Not that I'm saying I'm the cobbler or anything, even though I am . . . aw, exprolentarinoquate it all. WOLVES, TO ME! :p

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Really? And you know this for what reason?

Only suspicious thing I've seen thus far.

Kind of want to vote G55 (how dare she vote my jewel!) but will likely vote Inzil unless I see something else even more suspicious.

-Grabs another apple-

No, I'm not paying. I'm a notable miscreant, remember? It's kind of what we do.

[Nogrod]

Okay. I was thinking of making the long-forgotten Devil's Advocate view on everyone but I'm afraid I'm not having enough time for that right now. I mean sometimes things like that can kick a game forward and this one clearly is stalling in a major way.

But I'll throw out something I have time for...


It is interesting we have three people sending silly lists to begin the game - and those people are also the most vocal ones thereafter... If I was a wolf with a bold team we could do something like that just to have fun with it. So Kit, Galadriel and Bom?

Probably not. But then again I'd be surprised if they all are goodies... I just don't think that general air there is free from foul.



A bit more promising thing...

Inzil goes first for Bom making this "are you trying to look suspicious?" -thing, but after Greenie makes a strongish point for that being within the normal-Bomness, he goes to: I agree. Bom's doing his standard "suspicious innocent" deal, which can as always be taken many ways.Something there alerts my "careful-agreement-radar"... I mean somehow the way he used Bom to make a question and the way he discarded with it by saying "yeah, we all know it's his standard behaviour" just looks whimsy.

In the same vein Lottie also raises my eyebrows for stepping back from Bom, and unlike Zil who clearly lets us understand he has played many games with Bom and thus has a personal & experience-based view on Bom's behaviour, Lottie goes on accepting the explanation like that - and deciding the thing is settled: I didn't realize this was standard Bom. Never mind, then.Something in the way she phrases that makes me uneasy as well. It's too easy, too... kind of "it doesn't matter" (as long as none suspects us wolves" or something like that).

Between Zil & Lottie I'd say Lottie is the more suspicious, but that's not very much as yet.


Blah. I have to go now. I hoped I'd have time to look at you others as well, but no can do.

Back later.

[Inziladun]

Only suspicious thing I've seen thus far.

Oh, right. Questioning a pointed (joking or not) accusation made seemingly out of the blue is quite suspicious. :rolleyes:

Kind of want to vote G55 (how dare she vote my jewel!) but will likely vote Inzil unless I see something else even more suspicious.

I'd expect nothing less.

x/d with Nog

[Bom Tombadillo]

Hmmn. People seem to be getting more worked up than is entirely proper over G55's lack of time, but with so little to go on I guess that's hard to avoid.

Inziladun, meanwhile, actually is interesting. Not suspicious, just interesting. S/he (?) still hasn't answered why s/he thought I looked suspicious initially.

Lastly, Nerwen? Would you mind providing an explanation for why G55's vote is "backstabbing?" Perhaps you had agreed not to do wolf-on-wolf, or some such thing . . .

[Pitchwife]

Home from a long day on the pasture with my flock (OOC: working late). At the moment, I've half a mind to vote the next person to complain that nothing serious is happening and ask for somebody to "please do something suspicious". Slackers.


Only suspicious thing I've seen thus far.
That one raised my eyebrows as well.

The early, shall I say, conversation around Bom is interesting:

Zil #8 acts as if this were his first game with him and he had never seen Bom on Day 1.

Lottie #11 states that Bom could be anything (thanks for clearing that up:rolleyes:), but doesn't trust him because of his avvie, of all things. Very sensible.

Kit #12 supposes that both Zil & Lottie weren't serious because of smilies in their post. Why say that when nobody had yet questioned the whole matter? Wasn't it a bit early in the Day to be so concerned for peace in the village, while in the same breath complaining there was nothing going on? I don't know, I could see a wolf here seeing a packmate or two ogling an easy prey and eager to excuse them (+ possibly signaling them to back off, which they promptly did), or a wolf trying to look calm and noncontroversial.

Also, just so that the rest of you know it as well, she and I are not in the same wolfpack (which means that we will spend the game at each other's throats).
You mean you're in two different wolfpacks:eek:? Also, that would be quite a convenient thing to say if the two of you were packmates, in case of some later wolf-on-wolf.

Probably. Are you trying to signal to him?
I don't know about Zil, but are you, Miss Pretty Leather-boots?

Questioning a pointed (joking or not) accusation made seemingly out of the blue is quite suspicious.
Lastly, Nerwen? Would you mind providing an explanation for why G55's vote is "backstabbing?" Perhaps you had agreed not to do wolf-on-wolf, or some such thing . . .Out of the blue? I suppose it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that G55 had just voted Nerwen in her absence = stabbed her when her back was turned, now couldn't it?

[Bom Tombadillo]

True, but on most of the occasions when I've seen the phrase used, it's been in cases of treachery. It may have different connotations to others of course.

Or it may be nothing. I'm just trying to get people talking, really.

[Inziladun]

Inziladun, meanwhile, actually is interesting. Not suspicious, just interesting. S/he (?) still hasn't answered why s/he thought I looked suspicious initially.

Interesting I am. I'll also take eccentric, odd, and pretty darned distinctive.

Out of the blue? I suppose it couldn't have anything to do with the fact that G55 had just voted Nerwen in her absence = stabbed her when her back was turned, now couldn't it?

Could have been. I forgot that vote was immediately proceeding. :rolleyes:

[Pitchwife]

Could have been. I forgot that vote was immediately proceeding. :rolleyes:
When you had just commented on G55's vote a paragraph before in the same post? Hmmm.

[Inziladun]

When you had just commented on G55's vote a paragraph before in the same post? Hmmm.

Yup. Swing and a miss. That's what comes of posting while not only working, but also listening to an online streaming show about one of my favorite (http://weatherbrains.com/weatherbrains/?paged=10) subjects.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh, right. Questioning a pointed (joking or not) accusation made seemingly out of the blue is quite suspicious.

Um, when it's obviously a joke (as evidenced by the fact that it was made in character), then yes, it's suspicious. And nonchalantly brushing off the fact that it's suspicious with a sarcastic comeback is classic wolf behavior. Thought you ought to know. :)

[Kath]

I'm here (thanks for the reminder Boro!), but I'm very tired. I'm going to read the thread and vote ... if there's anything to base a vote on so far.

[Loslote]

Well, I don't know why you haven't realised, Lottie, as he's been exactly like this in every other game.

I haven't played a game in over four months, and I think I've only played with Bom a couple of times.

and unlike Zil who clearly lets us understand he has played many games with Bom and thus has a personal & experience-based view on Bom's behaviour, Lottie goes on accepting the explanation like that

Acting unusually is one of the clearest signs of someone being evil. Bom's behavior struck me as unusual, but when I was reassured that it was usual for me, I didn't think it worthwhile to continue looking at it as somewhat suspicious.

Hmmn. People seem to be getting more worked up than is entirely proper over G55's lack of time, but with so little to go on I guess that's hard to avoid.

I would say it is entirely proper. Her vote was bad (regardless of circumstances requiring it, I don't think anyone can argue that it was in any way good). It was also one of the only things of note to happen yet. I think it would only have been improper if we'd ignored it.

[Kath]

G55, Kitanna and Bom should be the three wolves. One wolf says 'well we could start with silly list posts' but unfortunately they all three did it!

Bom? It's Day 1. Pretend to be the cobbler if you want. As long as you're an innocent not a Gifted then if you end up dying it's protecting Gifteds. Shame for the village if silly behaviour ends up with us lynching an innocent over a wolf though.

G55 votes Nerwen. Well, clearly a random vote. Guess we'll have to hope we see more of her toMorrow.

Inzil's a bit aggressive. 'And you know this how?' to Nerwen, and something previously toward Bom I think.

Agan - kind of agree with her comment on G55 saying only around Nights. Was an odd thing to point out really. Could have just said 'oh no it turns out I'm not really around on the days that are Days', mentioning Nights at all is unnecessary. Could be a hint. But, G55 isn't going to be back toDay, so pass for now.

Lottie and Bom are both using kthxbai. Cobbler to wolf? Wolf to wolf? Totally random?

Nerwen also a bit aggressive, particularly towards Lottie.

Ooh Nog's catch on Inzil is interesting! If Inzil turns out to be a wolf there could be some good leads in there.

Pitch looks good. Or at least, lots of interesting comments. And made me read Agan's post: we are not in the same wolfpack ... suggesting that one of the two is in a wolf pack?

So,

++INZIL
Somewhat aggressive. Still considering Nerwen's 'back-stabbing' comment deeply suspicious despite pretty much everyone else considering it to be a reply to G55 voting for her the post before. If he forgot about G55 voting for her, then he only read half of the post he quoted by Shasta - in which Shasta mentions G55 voting for Nerwen ... this quote coming immediately after another mention of Nerwen's comment being suspicious.

That's it from me toDay.

[Pitchwife]

Not only at work but listening to online shows and playing Werewolf at the same time? Crime must be running rampant in Alabama.

I'm not convinced of Zil's innocence at this point, but I'd like to look at some other people as well - for example:
If Galadriel were a gifted she wouldn't have then slipped that "I can actually participate a bit more are Nights" -thing. That would be far too reckless. But could she slip it as a wolf? Or is it just an ordo talking things that are not necessarily to the point regarding the game (as ordos have nothing to do by Night)?
Which indeed? Any opinions?
The way I read it, it's most likely Galordriel complaining that she doesn't have time on those days (=Days) where she could actually do something, unlike those (=Nights) where she has more time but nothing to do; to me, this isn't quite as not-to-the-point as you make it sound.
Anyway, thanks for telling the wolves she's not gifted!:rolleyes:

As to Zil vs Lottie, I'm not sure how many games Lottie has actually played with Bom - any idea, anyone? If she really had no idea that Bom being weird and suspicious on purpose on Day1's is about as new as me being Mr Agreeable, I'd understand her backing off like this; whereas Zil should have known better than try to get any sense out of Bom on Day1, especially after helping me get lynched for the same thing (among others) last game. I don't see how this makes Lottie more suspicious, and if Zil turns out to be a wolf at some point, I'll be looking hard at Nog.

One thing he said I agree with though, that there was probably a wolf involved somewhere in the early talk toDay. I'd really like Kit to come back and talk some more while I'm online.

Whom else have we got?
Shasta did indeed sound sneaky at the beginning, like Agan said (and munching apples to demonstrate his vegetarianism?:D); has since gone into combat-mode and zoomed in on Zil, which I happen to agree with. Past games in mind, that should perhaps give me pause, but we'll see.

Bom, the object of that much discussion, has been himself so far and doesn't concern me toDay. This may change, however.

Greenie has so far been the good sensible girl we all know and fear. No read.

Agan has slightly poked some people (Bom, Zil, G55), which I would approve of, if it weren't in such a semi-bantering way; her question to Bom re pretty leather boots has a whiff of wolf waving to the self-revealed cobbler, but a) she would know not to take that reveal at face value, and b) she also does that pretty often as an innocent (as I know too well). No read either.

Nerwen's IC accusation of G55 looks to me like a relaxed reaction to a declaredly random (and most likely throwaway) vote, and her (also IC) reaction to Zil questioning her on it seems to confirm this; either a reasonable innocent or a veeery laid-back wolf who feels she has nothing to fear. I know Nerwen can be both, but at this point I see nothing pointing to the latter.

sally - where is she?

Kath - is here!

(x-ed with Lottie)

EDIT: (and Kath!)

[Loslote]

The way I read it, it's most likely Galordriel complaining that she doesn't have time on those days (=Days) where she could actually do something, unlike those (=Nights) where she has more time but nothing to do; to me, this isn't quite as not-to-the-point as you make it sound.

I am inclined to agree with you here. Other than the bad vote, I haven't seen anything particularly suspicious about G55 toDay, and haven't quite followed the suspicions other people have voiced about her.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Of course I sound sneaky. I'm a miscreant. Miscreants are almost by definition sneaky. In any case, I have yet to see anything that's telling me not to vote for Inzil - the only other thing I've seen is on Pitch and has to do with something he worded interestingly, so I'm holding judgment on that for now.

[Loslote]

I've got to go (I have a netball game to go play :p) but I'll be back probably an hour and a half before DL.

[Pitchwife]

++INZIL
Somewhat aggressive. Still considering Nerwen's 'back-stabbing' comment deeply suspicious despite pretty much everyone else considering it to be a reply to G55 voting for her the post before. If he forgot about G55 voting for her, then he only read half of the post he quoted by Shasta - in which Shasta mentions G55 voting for Nerwen ... this quote coming immediately after another mention of Nerwen's comment being suspicious.

Wait a sec! The post by Shasta (I suppose you mean #23) came after Zil's question to Nerwen. D'accord that it should have reminded Zil of the reason for Nerwen's accusation, but he could still genuinely have forgotten it before.

Also, being aggressive per se isn't necessarily evil in WW, is it?

Also also, time constraints OK, but could you decompress your sentences a bit? I think I've figured out what you said in that last paragraph, but it took an effort or two.

About G55's vote, which I just realize I haven't commented on as such - I'm far from happy with it, but at least it's better than a no-vote, if just barely. Why Nerwen, who hadn't even posted at the time? If G55 is a wolf and Nerwen isn't, trying to get rid of a dangerous opponent might be worth it, but there was little chance of that succeeding. Looks very much random indeed to me. I suppose G55 having more time toMorrow is the best we can hope for.

EDIT: x-ed with two Lotties and a Shasta

[Bom Tombadillo]

Lottie and Bom are both using kthxbai. Cobbler to wolf? Wolf to wolf? Totally random?

Random for my part. Wolflote can speak for herself.

I'm still suspicious of Nerwolf, though Wolfrod makes some good points about Wolf-zilla. I might vote for either of them (either of Nerwolf or Wolf-zilla, that is). Galadriwolf55 still doesn't seem that terribly suspicious to me, though that opinion is subject to change.

Nobody else stands out to me. Wolfrod is his usual self as far as I know, and nobody else has done/said anything especially interesting, unless I've missed something (entirely possible).

[Shastanis Althreduin]

"Still" suspicious? Interesting, given that so far all you've mentioned re: Nerwen is a polite request to explain why she used the word "backstabbing" in her first IC post.

And are you suspicious of Inzil just because Nogrod says to be, or do you actually have any reasons of your own?

[Bom Tombadillo]

And is there any problem with being suspicious of someone based on things another pointed out?

Besides, I can find nothing more to suspect anyone because of. If anybody would care to confess wolvishness? No? Then since I have no time machine, I am forced to form suspicions based on the (very) little information available so far.

[Inziladun]

Not only at work but listening to online shows and playing Werewolf at the same time? Crime must be running rampant in Alabama.

Ah, it's nice to feel the love. You'd be amazed what can be accomplished from a computer nowadays. :p

I'm not sure how many games Lottie has actually played with Bom - any idea, anyone? If she really had no idea that Bom being weird and suspicious on purpose on Day1's is about as new as me being Mr Agreeable, I'd understand her backing off like this; whereas Zil should have known better than try to get any sense out of Bom on Day1, especially after helping me get lynched for the same thing (among others) last game. I don't see how this makes Lottie more suspicious, and if Zil turns out to be a wolf at some point, I'll be looking hard at Nog.

I know Bom is Bom. Doesn't mean I don't want to lynch him sometimes just to be on the safe side.

Shasta did indeed sound sneaky at the beginning, like Agan said (and munching apples to demonstrate his vegetarianism?:D); has since gone into combat-mode and zoomed in on Zil, which I happen to agree with. Past games in mind, that should perhaps give me pause, but we'll see.

Shasta's last post bizarrely has me feeling all right about him at the moment.

x/d with Bom

[Nogrod]

So I'm back and have read the thread. And it's 1AM. How proper that is. :confused:

Okay. I need to think and check a few things. But anyone willing to talk, I'll be around for the next... while...

[Pitchwife]

And is there any problem with being suspicious of someone based on things another pointed out?

If you have no points of your own and just latch on to someone else's, yes.

At least your suspicion of Nerwen is original, but I still don't see what it's based on. Care to elaborate?

Ah, it's nice to feel the love.
You're most welcome.:)

I know Bom is Bom. Doesn't mean I don't want to lynch him sometimes just to be on the safe side.
I have similar feelings about more than one player in this game.

[Nogrod]

Okay. My initial reason to suspect Lottie more than Zil from their more or less similar actions (turning their wheels on Bom) was that unlike Zil who added the "it might be taken in many ways", Lottie went on saying "never mind, then".

Now it is hard for me to see any innocent saying that because someone acts suspiciously - and that is his habit - then there is no reaason to look after that person, that we should not mind ourselves with that person at all.

An innocent fears everyone as an innocent doesn't know the roles of others. Thus an innocent can't give a free pass to anyone. An innocent can't afford to say "never mind that person".

Now looked at through the Devil's Avocate's eyes there would be just a nice solution to Lottie's behaviour. After a few people make quite strong points for Bom being "just himself" and thus not especially super-suspicious because of that, she feels she should not pursue that point any further. As a wolf she has nothing at stake there (presuming Bom's innocence, that is, and which would be probable if Lottie is a wolf) and thus she just says "never mind" as to show she's off from that pursuit. But as a wolf she forgets that an innocent can't think "never mind" on anyone... and that betrays her.

Okay. If you're not a wolf Lottie, don't get mad at me, but that is the rational explanation I can give to what you said...

Now Zil seems to be a big questionmark in his own right and I do need to check back on him as well.

[A Little Green]

I wouldn't read too much into any of that unless it continues further. It looked like a bunch of Day 1 silliness for all involved.All his talk of being the cobbler looked exactly like that to me - Day 1 silliness. Whoever the cobbler is, I doubt they're going to go jumping up and down shouting "I'm the cobbler!"

If Galadriel were a gifted she wouldn't have then slipped that "I can actually participate a bit more are Nights" -thing. That would be far too reckless. But could she slip it as a wolf? Or is it just an ordo talking things that are not necessarily to the point regarding the game (as ordos have nothing to do by Night)?Quite honestly, I think you're reading too much into that comment. The way I saw it, she was just mentioning her bad luck concerning the Days - a thing a wolf would not "slip" since she wouldn't consider it bad luck at all.

Hmmn. You know, I'm guessing Boro would actually avoid making the cobbler, well, the cobbler.I don't think we can draw any conclusions based on that - or we might as well start rationalizing it along the lines of "Shasta (miscreant) and Inzil (furrier) are probably not wolves because of their dodgy occupations".

I'm hereSecond game in a row! You've got to be kidding me, dear.

Anyway, thanks for telling the wolves she's not gifted!
That's actually a good point. Why point that out, Nog? Unless you're the cobbler and want to make sure the wolves don't miss it, that is.

Also, being aggressive per se isn't necessarily evil in WW, is it?Not necessarily, no - some tend to play more agreeable when they're evil. But aggressive can also have to do with nervous and overreacting, which, in their turn, are traits that often enough go with being evil.

So I'm back and have read the thread. And it's 1AM. How proper that is.I can relate. :p


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch and Nog

[A Little Green]

An innocent fears everyone as an innocent doesn't know the roles of others. Thus an innocent can't give a free pass to anyone. An innocent can't afford to say "never mind that person".Nog, you're reaching. Lottie never said "never mind that person" but rather "never mind that particular point against that person" - which is something an innocent can afford to say.

[Aganzir]

Normal to him or not, jumping all around the place calling himself the cobbler is at best adding to the confusion. --- That doesn't mean I'm going to vote for him just for that. It will depend on his later posting and on what others do meanwhile.
Ditto.

-Grabs another apple-
You should have seen the way Greenie and I ate an apple at the concert venue. Hint: Legate, of all people, predicted it was going to turn erotic.

You mean you're in two different wolfpacks? Also, that would be quite a convenient thing to say if the two of you were packmates, in case of some later wolf-on-wolf.
Yes I do. And I know, and if you want to argue whether I'd bring attention to us like that so early on, go ahead. There are arguments both for and against it.

I don't know about Zil, but are you, Miss Pretty Leather-boots?
Yes. But it's up to you to decide what I'm actually trying to say.

Acting unusually is one of the clearest signs of someone being evil. Bom's behavior struck me as unusual, but when I was reassured that it was usual for me, I didn't think it worthwhile to continue looking at it as somewhat suspicious.
Or someone being gifted. I wouldn't say Bom's behaviour has been unusual enough to merit either title, but I do wonder why you didn't think of the other option.

Not only at work but listening to online shows and playing Werewolf at the same time? Crime must be running rampant in Alabama.
You just cracked me up so badly. :D:D

Anyway, thanks for telling the wolves she's not gifted!
Ah but it isn't that simple: Nog works in mysterious ways. Sharp-eyed Nogrod might be protecting an assumed gifted by saying that! Chew on that, wolves (and even if Lottie happens to be one, you can always discuss Nog's motives ;)).

One thing he said I agree with though, that there was probably a wolf involved somewhere in the early talk toDay. I'd really like Kit to come back and talk some more while I'm online.
Where? What makes it look like that?
Yes statistics say so and all, but it's just as likely there was no wolf. Saying "a wolf was probably involved here or there" is entirely arbitrary and works only to cast suspicion on a certain group of players without reason - it's almost as good as saying "there's probably a wolf within the first third of the player list".

I was feeling good about Pitch up until that.

her question to Bom re pretty leather boots has a whiff of wolf waving to the self-revealed cobbler, but a) she would know not to take that reveal at face value, and b) she also does that pretty often as an innocent (as I know too well).
As for a), I wouldn't have to give credit to Bom's reveal. It would be a convenient situation for a wolf to alert the cobbler (or the other way round), whoever she is. The cobbler and/or the wolves surely being smart and all, they will keep an eye on me until I do something overtly innocent, and we'll see who laughs last.
And b)... have I actually done that?

I am still feeling bad about Shasta because he pops in every now and then in a way that reminds me vividly of him as a wolf - it's not like he was chasing the kill or jumping for its throat, he's rather just snapping at its legs.

I'm feeling ok with Nerwen and Nog at the moment. My vote is probably going to be for Shasta or Lottie, or Pitch but rather not because apart from this one weird thing, he's making the most sense out of the three.

[Inziladun]

Hmm. I may have to vote here in a bit, and not much clue who to go for.

Bom is just too easy of a target, on Day 1 especially.

Greenie's been bringing up some interesting points about Nog..

Then there's Kit and Sally who have been very quiet.

Agan makes me nervous, no surprise there.



x/d with Agan

[Nogrod]

I could buy this multi-tasking explanation by Zil (I know from experience it is darn hard to try and play WW while multi-tasking - although that leads me not to do that if possible), but it looks quite odd what Pitchie pointed out back there on page1 on him forgetting Galadriel's vote even thoguh he commented on it in the same post he made the initial suspicion on Nerwen.

It kind of looks more like trying to save the milk that was accidentally spilled. I mean multi tasking can distract one, but like that?

Well, to be honest, I don't know. There's a four hour interval between the first post and the continuation of the discussion so it is possible he forgot it... then again it looks like a classic "save-manouver" by someone who is not speaking truthfully.


EDIT: X'd with some posts I see...

[Inziladun]

Ok, let's do this:

++Nog

Like I said, I think Greenie's noticed a couple of things, and now it looks like he may be turning to my bandwaggon.

Now it's time for salsa, chips, and chicken fajitas. ;)

Good Day.

[A Little Green]

Nah. Well past bed-time for me.

++ Nog

Strongest bad vibes this far. Nothing new to add to what I've already said, but to sum up - he's reaching, first with Gal, then with Lottie. Both are known to be easy early lynches. I don't like it.


EDIT: x-ed with Zil

[Nogrod]

Pitch & Greenie: you know full well innocent players have different motives behind their speculations on certain subjects. And I hope what you're asking is done under the same motivation (and from the innocent POV).

Nog, you're reaching. Lottie never said "never mind that person" but rather "never mind that particular point against that person" - which is something an innocent can afford to say.And you are not reaching when you say Lottie meant "never mind that particular point against that person".

She said "never mind, then". And to me that reads like "I'll drop the suspicion", not "I'm watching him closely but will dismiss this particualr suspicion". :rolleyes:


EDIT: X'd with two... votes for me! How nice!

[Pitchwife]

Where? What makes it look like that?
Yes statistics say so and all, but it's just as likely there was no wolf. Saying "a wolf was probably involved here or there" is entirely arbitrary and works only to cast suspicion on a certain group of players without reason - it's almost as good as saying "there's probably a wolf within the first third of the player list".
Not the first three, but the earlier talk about Bom. See what I wrote in #27.

As for a), I wouldn't have to give credit to Bom's reveal. It would be a convenient situation for a wolf to alert the cobbler (or the other way round), whoever she is. The cobbler and/or the wolves surely being smart and all, they will keep an eye on me until I do something overtly innocent, and we'll see who laughs last.
And b)... have I actually done that?
a) Thanks for the education. b) Didn't you forget a :Merisu: there? Seriously, yes, I've at least once seen you trying to look like a cobbler to the wolves and/or vice versa.

[Kitanna]

Then there's Kit and Sally who have been very quiet.

I did say I wasn't going to be around until an hour before DL.

But I am back and I've skimmed and Lottie's name looked bolded a lot and I see two votes for Nog. I'm going to do the best I can to read and comment in the time I have.

[Aganzir]

Greenie's been bringing up some interesting points about Nog..
She said he was reading too much into two things (Gal's Night activities and you & Lottie's reactions to Bom) which isn't exactly a point against him, and then she said this:

Anyway, thanks for telling the wolves she's not gifted!
That's actually a good point. Why point that out, Nog? Unless you're the cobbler and want to make sure the wolves don't miss it, that is.
to which I offered an alternative explanation in #50 so I don't really think it's that good of a point at all.

I refuse to judge Greenie yet because I know her and Nog and I don't want to start arguing so early on (and besides we're both wolves, even if in different packs), but Zil's jump on her feeble points against Nog doesn't sit right with me at all. Especially as I have decided to like Noggins for now, and I like his point against Lottie.


Not the first three, but the earlier talk about Bom. See what I wrote in #27.
So why didn't you say you think Kit is a wolf and the other two might be as well? Your attitude was more reminiscent of "lynch A and if she isn't a wolf, lynch B and if she isn't a wolf, lynch...!"

a) Thanks for the education. b) Didn't you forget a :Merisu: there? Seriously, yes, I've at least once seen you trying to look like a cobbler to the wolves and/or vice versa.
a) You're welcome. ;)
And b) I ran out of smilies because I wanted to have two :Ds to signal my merriment. And I have a vague memory of that but can't remember which game it was.

[Nogrod]

to sum up - he's reaching, first with Gal, then with Lottie. Both are known to be easy early lynches. I don't like it.I was not reaching with Galadriel as I only asked from what role would she say that?

Also, I think I made it clear why I think Lottie looks suspicious. Greenie seems to have had no time or wish to comment on my explanation on that (#47). And what I said in #55 doesn't make Greenie look any better.

But seeing Inzil's eagerness to jump on what Greenie has been preparing looks not the less suspicious. Blah... the clock is ticking and I need to go to sleep...

[Aganzir]

Out of the two, Greenie looks more nit-picky while Inzil looks opportunistic, but then again it's Inzil who's already been voted for... except I'm not sure if it was ever going to turn into a bandwagon. Hmm.

Vote count in a minute.

[Loslote]

And you are not reaching when you say Lottie meant "never mind that particular point against that person".

She said "never mind, then". And to me that reads like "I'll drop the suspicion", not "I'm watching him closely but will dismiss this particualr suspicion". :rolleyes:

Really? Because that is what I meant, more or less. I could hardly have raised one point against someone - and a ridiculously weak point at that, more Day 1 nothing-else-to-go-on speculation than anything - and then, when brought to the realization that that point is invalid, gone ahead and decided that that person could never ever possibly be a wolf based solely on the invalidation of the one point. I mean, really. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Xed with Agan

[Aganzir]

Gal - Nerwen
Kath - Inzil
Inzil - Nog
Greenie - Nog 2 (xed with Zil's vote)

Left: Agan, Bom, Kit, Lottie, Nog, Nerwen, Pitch, sally, Shasta

[Shastanis Althreduin]

From the phone - I don't know what to make of Agan's little slip just now, in regards to.... Was it Lottie? It is so difficult to work on this thing. It had to do with Agan pointing out that someone looked Gifted, which is odd (the cobblery kind).

Right now though -

++Inzil

++Inzil

I can't remember which format is right, so there's both.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Clarification - Agan in regards to Lottie thinking "unusual" means "wolfish", post 50.

[Loslote]

I am not especially happy with Zil's vote, but I'm also not especially happy with the arguments against him earlier in the Day. Neither am I happy with Nog's case against me, which is not only based on a exageration of a misinterpretation of an early Day 1 comment, but I think it's also a bit silly if you think about it. I'm not convinced of the furriness of either of them, but they are currently my choices for lynchdom - probably Nog more than Zil, but I not sure if that's just me being grumpy.

Edit: Xed with Shasta's vote

[Aganzir]

If Lottie is a wolf, which would've been the most sensible/typical course for her: to keep going after Bom (and hopefully eventually get an innocent lynched, assuming he's one); or take the careful path and drop the suspicion so she wouldn't be suspected herself?

If Lottie is a wolf, how did Bom's "reveal" affect what she said of him?

Reading back trying to find an answer for these questions brought me to this:
Bom could be either a) an innocent having fun on Day 1, b) a cobbler having fun on Day 1 so as to attract wolfsies, or c) a wolfsie having fun on Day 1 to look like a cobbler.
Cobbler? He doesn't look any more cobblerish than usual. (Not taking into account, of course, that his occupation is "cobbler" - but I think we should forget that before somebody, somewhere, gets confused.) Seriously now, I don't think we can deduce much anything from Bom's posts this far since they have not, at least in my opinion, differed in any remarkable way of the way he plays whatever his role.
Why single out cobbler? Does she want to say, "No, see here, Bom is not the cobbler!!"
And Lottie's reply:
I don't think I've played with him enough yet - I didn't realize this was standard Bom. Never mind, then.
So how did it become about the cobbler? As I see it, Lottie originally also offered two other options! It looks like they're both reading too much into it: first Greenie grasps at a part of a sentence, then Lottie immediately backs off.
Weirdos.

[Nogrod]

Darn deadline. I should go to sleep but then again the game is finally turning out interesting - and the whisper in my ear says "it's only 40 minutes, c'mon"...

If I would need to vote right now not caring about the probabilities of who's actually going to get lynched, I'd say Greenie. But I'm going to think about the other possibilities as well as connections for a moment then.

Lottie: sure, when Greenie gives you the line that makes your comment less suspicious it is clear you say that is the one you meant - and I mean in both cases; if you're an innocent or if you're a wolf.

I do smell some wisdom from the Owl of Minerva here (afterthought, wisdom after the facts, whatever way you have of saying it in English).

[Loslote]

Or someone being gifted. I wouldn't say Bom's behaviour has been unusual enough to merit either title, but I do wonder why you didn't think of the other option.

Usually I don't think of gifteds as trying to attract attention, and that's what I thought Bom was doing.

[Aganzir]

From the phone - I don't know what to make of Agan's little slip just now, in regards to.... Was it Lottie? It is so difficult to work on this thing. It had to do with Agan pointing out that someone looked Gifted, which is odd (the cobblery kind).
Lottie said behaving unusually is one of the clearest signs of being evil. It's not - it's one of the clearest signs of not being ordinary. That's why I don't automatically suspect everyone who is being unusual but rather wait till I've figured out more, and that's something Lottie totally overlooked. Might be she doesn't care if she lynches a gifted.

[Aganzir]

Usually I don't think of gifteds as trying to attract attention, and that's what I thought Bom was doing.
And why would a wolf do that?

[Pitchwife]

Pitch & Greenie: you know full well innocent players have different motives behind their speculations on certain subjects. And I hope what you're asking is done under the same motivation (and from the innocent POV).
And sometimes good reasons to keep said speculations to themselves for the time being.

And you are not reaching when you say Lottie meant "never mind that particular point against that person".

She said "never mind, then". And to me that reads like "I'll drop the suspicion", not "I'm watching him closely but will dismiss this particualr suspicion".
But if she thought that particular point against that person, which was the only point against them at the time, was moot, why would she have to say she'd watch him (more) closely (than anybody else)?

EDIT: X'd with two... votes for me! How nice!
Enjoy. I've half a mind to add one.

So why didn't you say you think Kit is a wolf and the other two might be as well? Your attitude was more reminiscent of "lynch A and if she isn't a wolf, lynch B and if she isn't a wolf, lynch...!"
Because I've said as much in my first post, and I don't have to repeat everything I say all over, do I?

Btw I don't think your alternative explanations works, but I'd rather not go into details at this time.

(x-ed with Nog, Agan, Lottie, Agan)

EDIT: and actually a lot more.

[Bom Tombadillo]

Even after rereading the thread I'm somewhat confused, but I just get that way sometimes, so meh. I'll make a final decision on who to vote for later.

EDIT: X'd with everyone since Nog.

[Loslote]

Lottie: sure, when Greenie gives you the line that makes your comment less suspicious it is clear you say that is the one you meant - and I mean in both cases; if you're an innocent or if you're a wolf.

No, this isn't a case of trying to avoid suspicion. At this point I don't really get surprised at Day 1 suspicion. That's not what bothers me here. I simply don't see how you could think I would do that at all, wolf or innocent. Free passes are not something I (or anyone else, I should think!) give out on basis of one line of reasoning being cut off. Your argument makes no sense to me because I wouldn't do that, no matter what role I happen to have.

EDIT: xed thrice

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Lottie said behaving unusually is one of the clearest signs of being evil. It's not - it's one of the clearest signs of not being ordinary. That's why I don't automatically suspect everyone who is being unusual but rather wait till I've figured out more, and that's something Lottie totally overlooked. Might be she doesn't care if she lynches a gifted.

Fair enough, but in doing so you're indirectly saying "unusualness can mean giftedness" which, when taken together with Lottie saying Bom is acting unusually, looks to me like you're pointing out a possible gifted - which is something I can't see an innocent doing.

[Loslote]

And why would a wolf do that?

To look like the cobbler, which I actually said in my first post about him.

EDIT: xed with Shasta

[Nogrod]

I just checked it: Greenie never mentions Zil in her late posting, even if he was under some considerable pressure. But she made her "decision" on me on grounds of defending Galadriel (for which there was no reason) and Lottie (to whom I was "reaching" - even if I had explained it in two posts why I said I was suspicious of her).

First of all it looks pretty wolvish to vote by "defending others" (in normal situations on D1 the only ones who can do it are wolves). But secondly it makes both Gal & Lottie look more innocent (neither was in dire straits and defending ordos is the best way for a wolf to gain trust and friendship).

But the fact she didn't mention Zil at all, despite the suspicions, makes me wonder if the two really are in cahoots...

[Nogrod]

And sometimes good reasons to keep said speculations to themselves for the time being....unless they have been voiced over already... the wolves tend to read the thread at Night.

[Aganzir]

Fair enough, but in doing so you're indirectly saying "unusualness can mean giftedness" which, when taken together with Lottie saying Bom is acting unusually, looks to me like you're pointing out a possible gifted - which is something I can't see an innocent doing.
If that's the price I have to pay for pointing out others' suspicious behaviour, then so be it. And I doubt the wolves are going to attack Bom thinking he's a gifted just because he's "behaving unusually" - they need more than that. So basically what I said matters not.

Because I've said as much in my first post, and I don't have to repeat everything I say all over, do I?
In this case I'd say it would've been appropriate because otherwise you're just throwing random suspicion towards the unfortunate people who happened to be around at the beginning.

[Aganzir]

To look like the cobbler, which I actually said in my first post about him.
And risk getting dreamed? Nah. And if I was a gifted I'd totally try to attract the seer's attention and then find a way to exchange information and then do something awesome... so again, it isn't that simple.

Gal - Nerwen
Kath - Inzil
Inzil - Nog
Greenie - Nog 2 (xed with Zil's vote)
Shasta - Inzil 2

Left: Agan, Bom, Kit, Lottie, Nog, Nerwen, Pitch, sally

[Pitchwife]

Time for me to count my metaphoric sheep.

I'm actually quite inclined to vote Nog, but I haven't yet digested the recent discussion about him wholly, and I'd rather not do it in the heat of the moment. So I'll stick with my earlier suspicion:

++Zil

Forgetting about G55's vote sounds almost unbelievable enough to be true, but it still smells of retconning, and I'm not happy with his pounce on Nerwen in the first place. Let's find out.

[Nogrod]

What was the rule on tied voting btw.?

[Loslote]

++Nog

Because I don't think his arguments have been very strong at all toDay, I think most of them have faulty reasoning which leads to faulty conclusions, and because I do not like having poor arguments used to make me look suspicious. To be perfectly fair, I'm not sure how much of this is my own bias, but I do honestly think he's acting suspicious as well.

EDIT: xed with everything since before Pitch's vote

[Shastanis Althreduin]

If that's the price I have to pay for pointing out others' suspicious behaviour, then so be it. And I doubt the wolves are going to attack Bom thinking he's a gifted just because he's "behaving unusually" - they need more than that. So basically what I said matters not.


In this case I'd say it would've been appropriate because otherwise you're just throwing random suspicion towards the unfortunate people who happened to be around at the beginning.

I don't see how you can say possibly pointing out a gifted to the wolves "matters not" based on how you think the wolves are going to act. I also don't see what's so suspicious about saying you think someone's behavior merits suspicion, which is really all I got out of Lottie's post. Whereas your post basically says "I think Bom is gifted" which is almost always a bad thing to mention.

[Boromir88]

What was the rule on tied voting btw.?

Tied vote. The person who reached the tie LAST will be lynched.

[Kitanna]

Be known that Galadriel55 is a sneaking, backstabbing wretch! Let none sample her cooking!
I bet she says the same thing about you Nerwen.

So even if I see what Greenie and some others say, I'm not going to let Bom slip by just for that being "normal" to him. I find it more telling how Bom reacts when people accuse him based on goofy posts.

If Galadriel were a gifted she wouldn't have then slipped that "I can actually participate a bit more are Nights" -thing. That would be far too reckless. But could she slip it as a wolf? Or is it just an ordo talking things that are not necessarily to the point regarding the game (as ordos have nothing to do by Night)?
I read this as an innocent statement saying she has no time during the Day phase right now. I think a lot of us fall into this category toDay.

In post #24 I like what Nog has to say about the after posts from Inzil and Lottie regarding Bom. I still feel their remarks about Bom were made in jest, but they backed away in seriousness when before things had been light Day 1 jargon.

Lastly, Nerwen? Would you mind providing an explanation for why G55's vote is "backstabbing?" Perhaps you had agreed not to do wolf-on-wolf, or some such thing . . .
This is reading too much into an IC joke post for my taste.

Kit #12 supposes that both Zil & Lottie weren't serious because of smilies in their post. Why say that when nobody had yet questioned the whole matter? Wasn't it a bit early in the Day to be so concerned for peace in the village, while in the same breath complaining there was nothing going on?
It wasn't meant to defend or accuse them, but to state the fact that that was all that was happening at the time. I didn't want to disappear for 12 hours and have everyone wondering where I went.

True, but on most of the occasions when I've seen the phrase used, it's been in cases of treachery. It may have different connotations to others of course.
What kind of wolf openly accuses another one of backstabbing in public?

G55, Kitanna and Bom should be the three wolves. One wolf says 'well we could start with silly list posts' but unfortunately they all three did it!
I so rarely get to do the silly list thing. I always show up too late and stuff has actually happened. How I relished the idea of doing it, only to have two more following immediately. I'm so sad. /lamenting sarcasm In seriousness, I wish I hadn't even bothered.

I'm still suspicious of Nerwolf, though Wolfrod makes some good points about Wolf-zilla. I might vote for either of them (either of Nerwolf or Wolf-zilla, that is). Galadriwolf55 still doesn't seem that terribly suspicious to me, though that opinion is subject to change
Color me stupid, but who is Wolf-zilla? Godzilla's hairy cousin? Are you suspicious of Nerwen solely on her "backstabbing post"? And I'm reading fast and missing things, but when did Nog get on people's radars?

And is there any problem with being suspicious of someone based on things another pointed out?
This was a response to Shasta. And this right here is why I fall to suspecting you. You get so very defensive when people question you and your reasonings. I've learned from the past not to jump on this defensive behavior on Day 1, but I have other reasons for suspecting you. I'm curious about this suspicions of Nerwen. She hasn't said anything but her IC post and a quick rebuttal. Please correct me if I'm wrong about that. Why is she your suspect? Why is Nogrod your suspect? Explanations please!

An innocent fears everyone as an innocent doesn't know the roles of others. Thus an innocent can't give a free pass to anyone. An innocent can't afford to say "never mind that person".
This is an interesting point, not only in relation to Lottie, but in general. I don't have time to sit and pick apart Lottie's posts, especially the ones in question.

Nog, you're reaching. Lottie never said "never mind that person" but rather "never mind that particular point against that person" - which is something an innocent can afford to say.
This is the first thing I've seen that suggests Nog may be up to no good. I.E. putting words in Lottie's mouth to lean the lynching to her?

Like I said, I think Greenie's noticed a couple of things, and now it looks like he may be turning to my bandwaggon.
Bandwagon? As in he's trying to get one on you?

Inzil's vote for Nog seems like a piggyback on Greenie's suspicious. Aside from Nog, she's made the best case for a lynch candidate and it's not even that strong. (I don't expect any to be that strong toDAy though)

Greenie makes a decent point about Nog. If I had time to scrutinize I could judge for myself, however I find myself lamenting my time crisis over and over when there's nothing to be done about it. So I'm making my decision now, as best I can based on the little information I've gained in less than an hour.

And even now as I hit "refresh" thing are being said of note! Ah!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

What was the rule on tied voting btw.?

Last person to get the tying vote dies, I believe.

[Pitchwife]

...unless they have been voiced over already... the wolves tend to read the thread at Night.
And I suppose they can also read the thread before it gets written?
Seriously, vote and go to bed.

[Aganzir]

Gal - Nerwen
Kath - Inzil
Inzil - Nog
Greenie - Nog 2 (xed with Zil's vote)
Shasta - Inzil 2
Pitch - Zil 3
Lottie - Nog 3

Left: Bom, Kit, Nog, Nerwen, sally

[Kitanna]

I desperately want to read Lottie and Nog, but there's no time.

++ Inzil

He jumped on Greenie's point about Nog so fast and that was just way too opportunistic, especially with Nog trying to build his own case for Inzil.

[Nogrod]

++Nog

Because I don't think his arguments have been very strong at all toDayShow me a strong argument from this Day1... :rolleyes:

[Aganzir]

And I suppose they can also read the thread before it gets written?
Seriously, vote and go to bed.
Ahaha Pitch gets a free pass because he's the funniest person ever! :D <3

I'm also liking Kit even though I only managed to skim her post.

Gal - Nerwen
Kath - Inzil
Inzil - Nog
Greenie - Nog 2 (xed with Zil's vote)
Shasta - Inzil 2
Pitch - Zil 3
Lottie - Nog 3
Kit - Inzil 4

Left: Agan, Bom, Nog, Nerwen, sally

[Kitanna]

Show me a strong argument from this Day1... :rolleyes:
A strong argument existed today? Shock and awe!

[Nogrod]

This is the first thing I've seen that suggests Nog may be up to no good. I.E. putting words in Lottie's mouth to lean the lynching to her?

Greenie makes a decent point about Nog....by putting words into her mouth as well... but of the kind Lottie will like.

More wolvish than not.

[Aganzir]

++Inzil

[Nogrod]

++ Inziladun

[Aganzir]

And now to bed, Noggins! ;)

[Kitanna]

...by putting words into her mouth as well... but of the kind Lottie will like.
Isn't twisting words and pointing fingers the true spirit of WW? :D

[Nogrod]

And I suppose they can also read the thread before it gets written?We'll discuss this after the game...

[Bom Tombadillo]

ARGH no time. Everybody's posting at DL. ++Inzil it is.

EDIT: Apparently not strictly at DL. I somehow managed to completely miss several minutes of posts! How'd that happen?

[Boromir88]

Dead Line.

No More posting please. Once I double check votes, the role will be revealed quickly.

[Aganzir]

Btw Nog we're pathetic. Guess which two very busy people top the post count?

edit: Apologies, Uncle Boro!

[Boromir88]

"Nogrod's reaching." Greenie said above all the bickering and shouting. The villagers quieted knowing time was running out and they needed to decide on who to send to the gallows. They were determined to keep their heads. Reason and rationality will find the wolves amongst them. Or so the innocents hoped.

"Preposterous!" boomed Nogrod.

"Your arm has grown long indeed." observed Lottie.

"Let's stop with the metaphorical suspicions and get something more concrete." said Shasta. "I vote Inzil."

Inzil gave a sarcastic sigh. "Now there's a shocker. Concrete evidence. Obviously the furrier has to be the most furry. That's not at all metaphorical."

"Glad you agree." added Pitch. "That settles it then."

The villagers bound Inzil and led him up to the swinging gibbet. And there he hung lifeless. But Inzil grew no fangs or claws. He sprouted no new fur either.

"Well. Unless Inzil shaved to make those furry boots of his, I'd say he's not a wolf." chimed sally.

"Where have you been all day!" grumbled many of the Dale residents.

LIVING

Aganzir...Baker's wife.
Bom...Cobbler.
Galadriel55...Cook.
Greenie...Undertaker.
Kath...Baker.
Kitanna...Cooper.
Loslote...Candlestick Maker.
Nogrod...Wine-maker from Dorwiniondil.
Nerwen...Town crier.
Pitchwife...Shepherd.
Sally...most prestigious Musician and Poet of Lake-town.
Shasta...Notable miscreant.

DEAD

Boro...King's Secretary - Night 1
Inziladun...Furrier (Ordo) - Day 1

---

Wolves chatter and decide your kill.

Bard Hunt. Seer and Ranger send out your birdies.

Edit: No apology necessary Agan, I find that ironically amusing. :p

[Boromir88]

The wolves debated into the night and once they agreed on who would meet their end tonight, they set out while the village remained asleep.

"Do you feel that?" one asked.

"I do." concurred another. "And I don't like it much." What it was the wolves did not know, but it felt as if there were a great and powerful will coming down from the skies above. "Let's steer clear, whatever it is."

The wolves proceeded on to house of their chosen victim.

----

Morning had come, but it wasn't the rooster crows which awoke the town. They heard a pained wailing coming from the Baker's hovel.

Normally, the town could smell the delicious, fresh-baked rolls and pastries each day. But this morning, there was no smell of freshly made breads. Only a piercing cry. And out ran Agan, her gown was soaked red. The blood of the Baker.

LIVING

Aganzir...Baker's wife.
Bom...Cobbler.
Galadriel55...Cook.
Greenie...Undertaker.
Kitanna...Cooper.
Loslote...Candlestick Maker.
Nogrod...Wine-maker from Dorwiniondil.
Nerwen...Town crier.
Pitchwife...Shepherd.
Sally...most prestigious Musician and Poet of Lake-town.
Shasta...Notable miscreant.

DEAD

Boro...King's Secretary - Night 1
Inziladun...Furrier (Ordo) - Day 1
Kath...Baker (Ordo) - Night 2.

It's day 2. Kath the ordo is wolf-fodder.

[Kitanna]

Kath? She only had two posts.
Post # 33, Pressed for time, rereading
Post # 35 G55, Kitanna and Bom should be the three wolves. One wolf says 'well we could start with silly list posts' but unfortunately they all three did it!

Bom? It's Day 1. Pretend to be the cobbler if you want. As long as you're an innocent not a Gifted then if you end up dying it's protecting Gifteds. Shame for the village if silly behaviour ends up with us lynching an innocent over a wolf though.

G55 votes Nerwen. Well, clearly a random vote. Guess we'll have to hope we see more of her toMorrow.

Inzil's a bit aggressive. 'And you know this how?' to Nerwen, and something previously toward Bom I think.

Agan - kind of agree with her comment on G55 saying only around Nights. Was an odd thing to point out really. Could have just said 'oh no it turns out I'm not really around on the days that are Days', mentioning Nights at all is unnecessary. Could be a hint. But, G55 isn't going to be back toDay, so pass for now.

Lottie and Bom are both using kthxbai. Cobbler to wolf? Wolf to wolf? Totally random?

Nerwen also a bit aggressive, particularly towards Lottie.

Ooh Nog's catch on Inzil is interesting! If Inzil turns out to be a wolf there could be some good leads in there.

Pitch looks good. Or at least, lots of interesting comments. And made me read Agan's post: we are not in the same wolfpack ... suggesting that one of the two is in a wolf pack?

So,

++INZIL
Somewhat aggressive. Still considering Nerwen's 'back-stabbing' comment deeply suspicious despite pretty much everyone else considering it to be a reply to G55 voting for her the post before. If he forgot about G55 voting for her, then he only read half of the post he quoted by Shasta - in which Shasta mentions G55 voting for Nerwen ... this quote coming immediately after another mention of Nerwen's comment being suspicious.

That's it from me toDay.
So...she pretty much had something to say about everyone. Her top suspect was for the ill-fated Inzil though and she voted for him. Aside from seeing Inzil as aggressive she didn't make much of a case for anyone. That could well be why she was killed. I think the only person she didn't mention was Sally.

I wanted to take a closer look at Lottie, Nog, and Greenie today. There was quite a bit of back and forth around DL. Nog and Lottie appeared to dominate it, but Agan chimed in and Greenie made some points about Nog and his suspicions.

Lottie:
# 10: She threw out some theories about Bom. I didn't take it seriously at the time because it was ended in a joking matter. Having the chance to think it over, maybe the first part was a serious theory put forward. The second part was certainly a joke at the expense of Bom's avatar.
# 19: This is the "never mind then" post Nog and Greenie argued over. I don't think I've played with him enough yet - I didn't realize this was standard Bom. Never mind, then. She responds to Greenie saying this is normal Bom. Nog believes this isn't normal innocent behavior, but I've seen innocents and wolves pull this move. A simple misunderstanding can cause someone to backtrack. The never mind is the oddest part of her statement. It seems unnecessary to put that in, but it also seems like a convenient slip to jump on.
She also states she's done the same thing G55 did (random vote) as a guilty and an innocent, excuses G55 for the moment.
# 34: Responds to Nerwen's "how could you not know this is what Bom plays like, he always does this!" with "I haven't played in months!"
I didn't think it worthwhile to continue looking at it as somewhat suspicious.
I don't think Lottie she have backtracked so drastically. She hasn't played with Bom much and if this behavior is suspicious, then keep a watch on it.
# 37: Comment on G55's vote
# 39: States she's leaving she for awhile.
# 61: Argues with Nog about her backing off of her Bom theories. I read this as pretty sarcastic and angry.
# 65: Lottie just isn't happy here :(
Mostly she doesn't like the earlier cases against Inzil or Nog's suspicion of her, but isn't convinced enough to vote either.
# 68: Usually I don't think of gifteds as trying to attract attention, and that's what I thought Bom was doing.
# 73: Continues to defend herself against Nog.
# 75: Responds to Agan about why a wolf would draw suspicion.
# 82: Votes Nog. Can't say I'm surprised. Admits some of this vote is personal bias at this point.

Looking at Lottie she certainly got worked up after Nog pointed out the "never mind, then". I think she slipped in her speech, whether sinister or not, I'm not sure yet. She backed off of her Bom theory when confronted that this is his regular style. But she did make valid points as to why she could believe him to be a wolf parading as a cobbler. Mostly she was agitated by Nog.

Nog is next...

[Galadriel55]

Kath?

My thoughts exactly. If you pointed a gun to my head and asked me why, I would say a traceless kill. I don't notice any particular gifted vibes comming from her.

But the next question then is, why did the wolves not choose someone who would point more in the wrong direction (leave a false trace)?

Am I being a tree stump and missing something obvious? :rolleyes:


Anyways, some basic impressions from yesterDay:

Pitch: I didn’t locate any fur on him. Looks innocent enough to me.

Bom: is Bom. I didn’t expect anything other than silliness from him. Can’t say anything about his alignment, though.

Nerwen: hard to say anything about her just yet. But this game she doesn’t make me nervous or scare me like in previous games, though I try to keep in mind how deadly sharp she can be to either side.

Kit, Shasta, and Greenie are sensible, and hopefully innocent.

Nog: sometimes made neat points, but at other times he has been plain illogical. I don’t want to condemn him right away because of that, though; he might be an innocent who looks at things differently than I do, or he might be a wolf who left some holes in his persuasion, or a cobbler who is just messing with our heads and taking our attention off the real wolves. Currently I think the last two are more likely.

Lottie: sweet-tongued. Defensive. I understand her defensiveness, but I haven’t played enough with her to tell if her tone is normal. I guess it is, since no one commented on it before.

Agan: is confusing. Jokes are jokes, but by the end of Day 1 you do stop fooling around with obvious silly bluffing. What’s up with your wolf-packs?


And since a lot of you tried to take apart my previous post, all that I meant way that Days fall on my busy days and Nights fall on my less busy days. As Greenie put it, I was just complaining about my luck. I hope to make it up toDay.

And just to be on the same page as you guys, can you define a "bad vote"? Unreasoned? Bad for the village? Simply wrong because you's convinced X is innocent? Badly timed?

More comments to follow.

[Kitanna]

Nogrod:
# 20: Makes a point that as a wolf, saying he's the cobbler is a good place for Bom to hide. He's not letting Bom slip by for this.
If Galadriel were a gifted she wouldn't have then slipped that "I can actually participate a bit more are Nights" -thing. That would be far too reckless. But could she slip it as a wolf?
I feel like he's grasping at straws with this. Obviously Day 1 is mostly making weak cases as best you can, but this looks... opportunistic.
# 24: Mentions a bold team of Bom, G55, and I. Doesn't feel strongly about it, but leans toward at least one being a wolf.
He also mentions Zil and Lottie and how they backed off of Bom. He says Lottie is more suspicious. He spends lots of time poking Lottie, but I don't recall as much time spent on Zil, who he eventually voted for.
# 45: "I'm back, reading"
# 47: Makes his case against Lottie. He makes good points about the nature of an ordo and what's at stake. But in his Devil's Advocate paragraph he doesn't mention how much a wolf has at stake. an innocent can't think "never mind" on anyone... and that betrays her.
Yes, you're right and that is a very big blunder for a wolf to make. That's why I'm not so sure about Lottie. Innocents lose are lynched for mistakes like "never mind, then", a wolf would know that and be extra careful, I think.
# 52: Talks about Zil and isn't sure about his "forgetting G55's vote". He can't seem to make up his mind about Zil and what he's said about multitaking, etc.
# 55: Argues with Greenie about what he thought Lottie meant.
# 59: Also, I think I made it clear why I think Lottie looks suspicious. Greenie seems to have had no time or wish to comment on my explanation on that (#47). And what I said in #55 doesn't make Greenie look any better.

But seeing Inzil's eagerness to jump on what Greenie has been preparing looks not the less suspicious. Blah... the clock is ticking and I need to go to sleep...
# 67: Admits that he'd vote for Greenie if he didn't care about "the probabilities of who's actually going to get lynched". Responds to Lottie about her agreement with Greenie over what she meant.
# 76: It's all about Greenie and why she's treacherous.
# 81: Mod question
# 90: "Show me a strong argument"
# 93: Says Greenie puts words in Lottie's mouth in response to me saying that about him.
# 95: Zil vote

I see Nog poking at Lottie a lot. Maybe because she kept popping back up to defend herself. He voted for Zil and from what I can it was to save himself, but he also had suspicions of Zil early on. Nog speaks reason, he always does, and I can easily see his reasonings saving the village, but just as easily I can it destroying all of us. The only real suspicious thing I see with Nog is how he tries to make something out of nothing. The biggest example I can think of is his post about G55 slipping about about being able to play during Night. It is very opportunistic.

Greenie:
# 14: We can't deduce much from Bom. I actually misread this the first time I read it. She doesn't like G55's vote, but understands the situation.
# 48: Quite honestly, I think you're reading too much into that comment. The way I saw it, she was just mentioning her bad luck concerning the Days - a thing a wolf would not "slip" since she wouldn't consider it bad luck at all.
Greenie and I apparently share a mind on this thought.

Originally Posted by Pitch
Anyway, thanks for telling the wolves she's not gifted!
That's actually a good point. Why point that out, Nog? Unless you're the cobbler and want to make sure the wolves don't miss it, that is.[/quote]
I'm not sure why Pitch and Greenie jumped on Nog for this. In fact it looks weirder to me that they bring this up. Like, how do you figure Nog is giving anything away? How do you know he knows G55 isn't gifted? That's one big ball of confusion for me.
# 49: Nog, you're reaching. Lottie never said "never mind that person" but rather "never mind that particular point against that person" - which is something an innocent can afford to say.
Greenie puts words into Nog's mouth and Lottie's mouth in one sentence. I'm impressed.
# 54: Votes Nog, based on reasons already stated.

I'm so happy Greenie only posted four times. I'm so very sleepy. Ok, Greenie said a lot without saying a lot. She jumps on a comment about Nog from Pitch that was pretty bad for a suspicion, even by Day 1 standards. Then she twists what Lottie says by twisting what Nog said. I like her least of the three I've looked at so far.

Agan has talked a lot, but I can't honestly remember anything she's said and that's kind of scary to me.
But...my day started out weird when I dreamt of this village, except Anne Boleyn and Katherine of Aragon were in it and then it went downhill when I had to attend to my RL job. I should have been making barrels for you fine people! I set my alarm an hour earlier so I can get up and comment a little before work tomorrow.

[Galadriel55]

I need to vote 2-3 hours before the DL

Haha. So much for that.

Not only at work but listening to online shows and playing Werewolf at the same time? Crime must be running rampant in Alabama.

:D

But more seriously, I don’t know about Alabama, but it certainly is in Esgaroth. And it is our duty to stop it. :smokin:

Clearly you haven't seen the state of her kitchen

Lucky you haven’t! ;) If you look at the state of my room you'll know why I would never be asked to run anything in RL, let alone a kitchen when all the time something burns, boils over, goes bad... To give you some idea about that, the only things in my room that I constantly put away as a rule are scissors and pins. I once almost sat on one.

Ok……That was more that a bit random.

Galadriwolf55 still doesn't seem that terribly suspicious to me, though that opinion is subject to change

How could you be suspicious or not suspicious about someone who isn’t there? This statement had me scratching my head.



Oh, and I think Wolf-zila is referring to Inzil. And he's a he, Bom.

Edit: xed with Kit

[Nerwen]

*rings handbell*

Hear ye, hear ye! Our most esteemed baker Kath has been foully murdered! And her bread ruined! From this Day forth, the village will be forced to depend on the inferior wares of so-called "cook" (and noted backstabber) Galadriel55. The griping agonies of food poisoning await us all! Let none rest until this most horrid crime has been avenged!

–Anyway, sorry for lack of participation yesterDay. Your itinerant Town Crier was on the road for most of it.

Looking at Lottie she certainly got worked up after Nog pointed out the "never mind, then". I think she slipped in her speech, whether sinister or not, I'm not sure yet. She backed off of her Bom theory when confronted that this is his regular style. But she did make valid points as to why she could believe him to be a wolf parading as a cobbler.

Oh yes, I can remember when that used to be a routine wolf-tactic– but I gather what people are on about with Lottie isn't so much that she suspected Bom in the first place, as that she backed off instantly and completely when it was pointed out that he always acts suspiciously– which is hardly a good reason for *not* suspecting someone, either.

EDIT: I typed all this earlier, before the backstabber showed her face again, but then the page wouldn't load. Stupid internet.

[Loslote]

Just a note: I don't know how much time I'll be able to have toDay, since I (foolishly) spent far too long playing Civalization IV instead of studying earlier, I still have a hundred pages of Thusydides to read before DL tomorrow (coincidentally, DL happens to be exactly when my class is).

Also, after having a chance to cool down a bit, I'm less dead-set on lynching Nog, but I'm still far from happy about his reasoning and arguments yesterDay. I also feel like a Nog-Agan wolf team would be completely out of the question, which makes me feel a bit better about Agan. A Nog-Greenie pack, on the other hand, would almost make sense given the dynamic they ended up with yesterDay...but that's just speculation. YesterDay really doesn't offer anything more solid than that.

Kath seems to have accused just about everybody, and we can't even say that the "just about" narrows anything down, either, because the wolves could be either hiding among the people she didn't mention or hiding among the people she did. Either way, her death doesn't particularly incriminate anyone and mostly just seems to muddy the waters. The only thing we could maybe say is that is that the wolves felt threatened enough to kill her off early when there were other potential traceless kills, which could imply at least one experienced wolf...though that's not very helpful, I suppose.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kit
Kath?

My thoughts exactly. If you pointed a gun to my head and asked me why, I would say a traceless kill. I don't notice any particular gifted vibes comming from her.

But the next question then is, why did the wolves not choose someone who would point more in the wrong direction (leave a false trace)?
Well, there's barely such a thing as a real no-trace kill– because there's always that question of, "so why *didn't* they try to accomplish something more? Wasn't there anyone else who could be safely killed? And why not?" etc. In this case, though, with all the accusations and suspicions flying around yesterDay– well, some of that *must* have been innocent-on-innocent. So yes, I think it's actually quite odd.

And just to be on the same page as you guys, can you define a "bad vote"? Unreasoned? Bad for the village? Simply wrong because you's convinced X is innocent? Badly timed?
Any of those– and also one that looks opportunistic, or like the person is just copying someone else's suspicion. Or whatever.

EDIT:X'd with Lottie.

[Bom Tombadillo]

Okays, well it's late and I'm afraid (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=653877&postcount=7) so I won't be posting more tonight, but I'll try and get some reading in tomorrow and have an analysis up late toDay. Got that? :p

[satansaloser2005]

There once was a wee lass named Sally
Who found herself too tired to rally
A response to the thread
Far too full of regret
From the loss of sweet Boro, her ally



(Aka I'm too tired to post tonight. I'll be around a bit tomorrow, but the bulk of my posting will be in the last three hours or so of the Day. Please be patient. Thanks!)


*Note: Regret here having the meaning of sorrow, not guilt. I'll not wake up in the morning to people taking this post as some sort of admission or something.

[Nogrod]

Btw Nog we're pathetic. Guess which two very busy people top the post count?Right... or should one consider it the other way around: if two busy people are the most active what does it tell about the others? :rolleyes:

Anyway. ToDay I'm not able to hang around to the deadline as I have an early morning call tomorrow - and I have limited time in the evening as well. Sorry about that.



As I se this popping up once again, let me try to be clear with it:
If Galadriel were a gifted she wouldn't have then slipped that "I can actually participate a bit more are Nights" -thing. That would be far too reckless. But could she slip it as a wolf? Or is it just an ordo talking things that are not necessarily to the point regarding the game (as ordos have nothing to do by Night)?
So I am reaching, opportunistic "straw-grasper" etc.?

That was post #20 of the game - of a game which basically consisted of banter. So please excuse my poor wits if I was not able to make a "strong argument" from those 19 banter-posts.

And it is not arguing G55 is a wolf but is just making the question concerning the odd thing she said. Why do you who cite that post always leave out the last sentence? Shouldn't that be called opportunistic?

Of course making a question points to something you wish others to consider (and thus there is an element of suspicion involved), but it is not making an argument or a case.

Anyway. From my latter posts which commented Galadriel you can see I was and am not pressing for an interpretation she is a wolf at the time being - so I find it odd I'm suspected more or less from trying to get her lynched.

Blah. I hoped to say more but the class is calling and I have to go. More later, hopefully something more constructive then.



PS. anyone willing to criticize others for not making strong enough arguments should produce at least one themselves before going critical... :rolleyes:

[A Little Green]

And to me that reads like "I'll drop the suspicion", not "I'm watching him closely but will dismiss this particualr suspicion".Err - what's the difference?

Why single out cobbler? Does she want to say, "No, see here, Bom is not the cobbler!!"
...
So how did it become about the cobbler? As I see it, Lottie originally also offered two other options! It looks like they're both reading too much into it: first Greenie grasps at a part of a sentence, then Lottie immediately backs off.
Weirdos.Of Lottie's two other options, one was "wolf impersonating cobbler" - so I felt obliged to point out that Bom always looks like the cobbler anyway. Makes sense?

Anyhow, I need to do some reading and some thinking before posting anything more, these notes I already had from reading over yesterDay. Won't have a lot of time toDay due to having a book to read for a Uni paper and a ridiculously difficult exam coming up, but I'll do my best.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Somebody didn't like their bread, then? Huh. Don't look at me - I prefer apples myself anyway.

-snags one-

In any case, I'm going to read back over yesterday, but I'm still thinking hard about Agan.

[Bom Tombadillo]

Erg. I was going to post an analysis of Zil now that he (thank you G55) is a known innocent, but it ended up a mess. :( Mine always do.

Anyways, I'll go and read the thread a couple of times in between other stuff and see if my strangely muddled mind can provide some insight. So again, goodbye and I promise I'll actually have something interesting to say next time.

[Aganzir]

Here and how dare you kill my wife? This means war!

I am torn about Nogrod. He started in his usual way and I thought him innocent, and I have stubbornly refused to suspect him since just because so many others did. In my opinion, he's often surprisingly illogical for a philosophy teacher ;) but that doesn't necessarily make him a wolf. Or then it does and I'm just so used to it that I keep ignoring it. Whatever.

What’s up with your wolf-packs?
I told you. There are two.

I feel worse about Greenie after reading Kit's analysis. I don't exactly remember what I thought of her yesterday (apart from something like "she never sits right with me what should I do with her"), but now I get this feeling she was trying to corner Nog because she knows how stubbornly he can defend a point - which often makes him look bad in the end.

And her bread ruined! From this Day forth, the village will be forced to depend on the inferior wares of so-called "cook" (and noted backstabber) Galadriel55.
Excuse me? As if I couldn't bake bread just as well as my beloved late wife!

if two busy people are the most active what does it tell about the others?
Dear Nog, you know it tells more about us than them. Not everyone is an obsessive no-life loudmouth. ;)

Of Lottie's two other options, one was "wolf impersonating cobbler" - so I felt obliged to point out that Bom always looks like the cobbler anyway. Makes sense?
Kind of, but it still seems like reading too much. It's a very pre-emptive defence against a minor point which almost puts me in mind of a Greenie/Bom team.

[Pitchwife]

Why Kath, indeed? In her big list post, she wasn't very decided about anybody. The only thing there, as far as I see, that might look remotedly gifted-ish is her saying about me "Pitch looks good", which is a bit more decisive than what she said about the rest of us; could that have looked like a Seer-hint to the wolves? But then she immediately qualified it with an "At least...", and I don't know why I would have been a KathSeer's choice to dream N1 in the first place, so maybe not. Trailless kill seems more likely.

I'm not sure why Pitch and Greenie jumped on Nog for this. In fact it looks weirder to me that they bring this up. Like, how do you figure Nog is giving anything away? How do you know he knows G55 isn't gifted? That's one big ball of confusion for me.
To clear that up, I don't think innocents should speculate about a certain player's giftedness or non-giftedness while that player is alive - which is what Nog did, wondering about G55's alleged slip with Nights and Days; and giving reasons why a player is likely not gifted is almost as bad as pointing out signs of giftedness, because it helps the wolves narrow down their kill-choices, which is not an innocent's job. I don't see why that is so difficult to comprehend.

Btw Agan, I don't think your explanation that Nog did this "to protect an assumed gifted" holds. The best way for an ordo to protect the gifteds would be to act as a decoy, or if you can't think of a way to do that, the second-best way would be to keep mum about whatever makes you think a certain player might be gifted (or not), or explain it away as best you can without bringing the question of giftedness up at all.

I'm more or less ready to accept Nog's hair-splitting in the cases of G55 and Lottie as a busy player trying to make arguments on D1 (and, in my eyes, some linguistic overthinking), except for that one point, which I don't like. And I don't think that was a bad point for a suspicion at all.

That said, yesterDay's amount of discussing possible gifteds was far too much for my taste, and I'd rather we'd stop that, please.

I also feel like a Nog-Agan wolf team would be completely out of the question, which makes me feel a bit better about Agan. A Nog-Greenie pack, on the other hand, would almost make sense given the dynamic they ended up with yesterDay...
Why do you think that?


Right... or should one consider it the other way around: if two busy people are the most active what does it tell about the others? :rolleyes:
That the rest of us spend our days twiddling our thumbs? Spare the rolleyes and come off the high horse, please.

Anyway. From my latter posts which commented Galadriel you can see I was and am not pressing for an interpretation she is a wolf at the time being - so I find it odd I'm suspected more or less from trying to get her lynched.
That is not at all what I suspected you for. See above.

(x-ed with Agan)

[A Little Green]

Kind of, but it still seems like reading too much. It's a very pre-emptive defence against a minor point which almost puts me in mind of a Greenie/Bom team.Now who's reading too much? Please show me a major point that early into Day 1. As it was, that was the only on-topic thing that seemed even remotely worth commenting.


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch

[A Little Green]

Aganzir - Needs to stop deliberately confusing people with a stupid inside joke about two wolf packs. Not funny and not fair. Other than that - she's kind of very sharp and very off at the same time. Either the most innocent or the most evil of the lot, but I haven't yet decided which.

Bom - Has slipped under my radar, I have no recollection of who he's suspected or what points he's made.

Galadriel55 - Likewise sleeping under my reindeer, I do remember the rushed Nerwen vote which could really be anything, and the useless argument later yesterDay about her comment on having more time during the Night phase. So no idea.

Kitanna - Looks fine this far.

Loslote - Looks more innocent than not. There's been a lot of debate (by myself, among others) about her backing off Bom early yesterDay. I still stand where I did - I don't see anything particularly furry about that.

Nogrod - Needs to calm down a notch. I haven't changed my mind since yesterDay, I still find him fluffy. (Whoops, meant to write "furry"!! What would Freud say? :D) He criticized me for sticking to my suspicion of him based on his grasping at straws with Lottie even after he explained it, but the thing is, the explanation didn't convince me so here we are.

Nerwen - No idea as yet.

Pitchwife - I keep flip-flopping on him, too - I agree with him on many points, but he seems a bit touchy, don't have a better word for it.

Sally - Too little to go on.

Shasta - Liking what I've seen this far, though I know how good he is at fooling me completely.

[A Little Green]

But the next question then is, why did the wolves not choose someone who would point more in the wrong direction (leave a false trace)?

Am I being a tree stump and missing something obvious?I dunno - false traces are still traces, aren't they? And since everyone knows whatever trace the wolves leave may as well be false as not, every false trace will be taken with quite a large pinch of salt. Still, since pretty much any kill can be traced to pretty much anyone, I don't think speculating too much on why they chose Kath is going to do us a whole lot of good. At least, not until we have a little more information on other things.

[A Little Green]

Also - where is everyone? Quadruple-posting is kind of depressing, especially since I want to go to sleep quite soon and would like some discussion before that..

[Nogrod]

Also - where is everyone?Finally here and reading... if you have anything in mind, let me know. Otherwise I'll try to comment as I go...

[Aganzir]

To clear that up, I don't think innocents should speculate about a certain player's giftedness or non-giftedness while that player is alive - which is what Nog did, wondering about G55's alleged slip with Nights and Days; and giving reasons why a player is likely not gifted is almost as bad as pointing out signs of giftedness, because it helps the wolves narrow down their kill-choices, which is not an innocent's job. I don't see why that is so difficult to comprehend.
As a rule, I don't think so either - but rules can be broken if necessary. Nog knows this full well. Anyway I checked the context where he said that: it was his first post, around 7PM our time, in reply to my absolutely non-serious questioning of Gal for saying she can be around more at Nights. Nog took it onto another level entirely. I was earlier ready to put it down on, I don't know, it being day 1 and stuff, but now I'm not so sure.

Btw Agan, I don't think your explanation that Nog did this "to protect an assumed gifted" holds. The best way for an ordo to protect the gifteds would be to act as a decoy, or if you can't think of a way to do that, the second-best way would be to keep mum about whatever makes you think a certain player might be gifted (or not), or explain it away as best you can without bringing the question of giftedness up at all.
It's not like it couldn't be so, but I never thought that was what Nog had intended. I was going for some damage control in the sense that there would be at least one argument, albeit feeble, between Gal and giftedness. You know, just to muddle the waters because that's what I so like to do.

That the rest of us spend our days twiddling our thumbs? Spare the rolleyes and come off the high horse, please.
One more reason why Pitch is the best. I love it when people talk back to Nog. :D

Now who's reading too much? Please show me a major point that early into Day 1. As it was, that was the only on-topic thing that seemed even remotely worth commenting.
I wouldn't have thought of it if I hadn't had other reasons for finding you suspicious. It could also have been phrased like "If Greenie turns out to be a wolf, I'd take a hard look at Bom, and the other way round."

[A Little Green]

I wouldn't have thought of it if I hadn't had other reasons for finding you suspicious. It could also have been phrased like "If Greenie turns out to be a wolf, I'd take a hard look at Bom, and the other way round."Fair enough.

[Aganzir]

Oh and just something minor to cheer you all up: 11 villagers; 4 villains, 7 goodies; 3 wolves, 8 humans. If we don't get a wolf either today or tomorrow, we probably lose.

INNOCENT
Kit. I like her arguments and she's reasonable enough. I still dread her though.
Pitch. I simply don't think he'd play the way he did if he was a wolf or the cobbler. Never mind that "there was probably a wolf involved among the first players", it's a single minor point against him when he's otherwise making sense.

GUILTY
Green. I think her attack on Nog was opportunistic because she knows what kind of player he is. And there's something very wrong with her not suspecting me because usually I annoy her and that makes her suspicious.
Nog. He doesn't strike me as a wolf but I don't think cobbler would be that far-fetched... Which means he's probably the seer. Whoops I forgot we're not supposed to speculate on gifteds! (And before anyone gets carried away, that's a reference to a particular catastrophic game.)
Shasta. Doesn't sit right with me at all. I can't explain it other than that his way of playing reminds me vividly of Shastawolf.
Bom. Has posted little that isn't crazy, therefore he's here for now.
Lottie. Because behaving unusually = evil, when it isn't that simple.
Gal. I kind of like her because she seems nice and tra-la-lally enough, but I don't trust her.
sally. Evil unless proven otherwise, and she isn't proving very apt at proving that because she doesn't post.
Nerwen. Sneaky.

Unless something drastic happens before I go to bed, I intend to vote for one of the three first Guilties.

[Nogrod]

Okay. Galadriel says I'm "plain illogical" and Agan says I'm "surprisingly illogical". Now that actually makes me interested, not that I'm too happy to discuss me as we have other things to do and talking about someone also heightens the chance of that person being lynched, but just out of curiosity: could you please show me some illogicality as I do doubt having been illogical. Actually I would be quite confused and ashamed if I had been illogical.

Okay. I hate doing this but as you seem to be so willing to speak about it in every other post Pitchie, then let me rephrase what I said yesterDay.

But I must say I don't understand why - if you really think yourself like you say you think - so why do you bring this up time and time after time? Even trying to exhaust all possible scenarios one might take! (Well, happily you missed mine) To clear that up, I don't think innocents should speculate about a certain player's giftedness or non-giftedness while that player is alive - which is what Nog did, wondering about G55's alleged slip with Nights and Days; and giving reasons why a player is likely not gifted is almost as bad as pointing out signs of giftedness, because it helps the wolves narrow down their kill-choices, which is not an innocent's job. I don't see why that is so difficult to comprehend.So like I said yesterDay: I wasn't first to speculate on Gal and I hope the wolves have now harder time to guess and second-guess what I know or guess or don't know and what should they think about it.

And that's the end of this conversation on my part.

Spare the rolleyes and come off the high horse, please.
Haha. I have always been afraid of horses... :) (note: no rolleyes)

I find it odd I'm suspected more or less from trying to get her lynched.That is not at all what I suspected you for. See above.All I can deduce from your post as a kind of grounds for suspecting me would make a total moron and half-wit out of me. I do hope you reconsider how big an idiot you think I am. :smokin:


EDIT: X'd with a lot, so back to reading before this becomes a novel...

[Pitchwife]

I'm flipflopping about Kit at the moment. Her comment on the Bom-Zil-Lottie triangle yesterDay didn't sit right with me, but that may have been me seeing things. Her long posts yesterDay and toDay look fair enough at first sight, balanced and independent (as in agreeing with Greenie's points against Nog but not with Zil piggybacking on them), but things have changed a lot over Night:

YesterDay:
Inzil's vote for Nog seems like a piggyback on Greenie's suspicious. Aside from Nog, she's made the best case for a lynch candidate and it's not even that strong. (I don't expect any to be that strong toDAy though)[...]
Greenie makes a decent point about Nog

ToDay:
Greenie puts words into Nog's mouth and Lottie's mouth in one sentence. I'm impressed.

Referring to this:
Lottie never said "never mind that person" but rather "never mind that particular point against that person" - which is something an innocent can afford to say.
I suppose you could call "never mind that particular point..." putting words in Lottie's mouth, but "never mind that person" is a verbatim Nog-quote.

Ok, Greenie said a lot without saying a lot. She jumps on a comment about Nog from Pitch that was pretty bad for a suspicion, even by Day 1 standards. Then she twists what Lottie says by twisting what Nog said.
So yes, I know, wolves can be consistent while innocents may need to change their minds, but I'd still like to hear how "making a decent point" and "the best case for a lynch candidate" became "said a lot with saying a lot" and twisting words? Especially as Kit seems to me to be largely echoing Nog's self defense.

(x-ed with a load)

[A Little Green]

Green. I think her attack on Nog was opportunistic because she knows what kind of player he is. And there's something very wrong with her not suspecting me because usually I annoy her and that makes her suspicious.You do annoy me, dear. I'm just trying very hard not to let that affect my opinion of your alignment. :smokin: Actually, that's part of why I'm so undecided about you at the moment.


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch

[Shastanis Althreduin]

On Aganzir, Day 1

#18 - No real content. Several things in this post could be taken to be hints to people (Bom, G55, me) but I can't say for sure.

#50 - Agrees with Nog that Bom is just adding to the confusion, but she's not willing to vote for him.

This post has the quote that originally drew my attention to Agan. Here it is below -
Acting unusually is one of the clearest signs of someone being evil. Bom's behavior struck me as unusual, but when I was reassured that it was usual for me, I didn't think it worthwhile to continue looking at it as somewhat suspicious.Or someone being gifted. I wouldn't say Bom's behaviour has been unusual enough to merit either title, but I do wonder why you didn't think of the other option.
This pounce on Lottie bothers me. For one, why assume Lottie didn't think of the other possibility and choose not to mention it (like an innocent should)? For another, why draw attention to a possible Gifted!Bom yourself in the first place? It doesn't sit right with me.

Mentions Pitch is erroneous in saying "there was a wolf involved in the early talk". I agree here, but not to the extent that it makes Pitch looks suspicious like Agan thinks.

Says she's going to vote for me, Lottie, or Pitch. It's interesting to note that the only thing Agan has said about me thus far is that I "feel sneaky" and she still "feels bad" about me. :rolleyes:

#58 - Defends Nog pretty passionately here, against Greenie (and this is in response to Inzil.) Puts more pressure on Pitch (and this looks somewhat like the beginning of a witchhunt.)

#60 - Mentions Greenie and Inzil together again, probably because of their votes for Nog. Mentions Inzil has already been voted for, but that she's "not sure if it was ever going to turn into a bandwagon" which is a comment I don't understand.

#62 - Vote count.

#66 - This is an interesting post. Agan says she's flip-flopping on Lottie, but the content of the post appears to say the opposite - Agan mentions that Greenie singled out one part of a three-part Lottie statement to respond to, which is strange, I'll agree. Lottie's response to that makes sense to me and is normal enough, though. What I find the most interesting is this -
So how did it become about the cobbler? As I see it, Lottie originally also offered two other options! It looks like they're both reading too much into it: first Greenie grasps at a part of a sentence, then Lottie immediately backs off.
Weirdos.
The way I read into this bit is Agan offering up food for thought to the village in general and stepping back to wait for reactions... which isn't typical of Agan in my experience. Hmm.

#69 - Responds to me about Lottie and Bom. Agan raises a good point here about "unusual" meaning "not ordinary" rather than "wolfish", but I don't think simply pointing out behavior that appears unusual is as big a point against Lottie as Agan is trying to make it out to be.

#70 - Question to Lottie - "And why would a wolf do that?" Unfair question - what a wolf would do depends on any number of factors, like who the wolf is, what the situation is, etc. Again, looks like a prelude to a wolf hunt - Agan looks like she's waiting to pounce on whatever answer Lottie gives, no matter what it is.

#78 - Agan answers what I said with "Yep, I did, so what, oh well." I'm thinking of leaving apple cores in her bed for this.

#79 - Agan dismisses outright Lottie's theory about Bom under her own theory that the risk of being dreamed is too great. Seems a bit silly to me - finding the cobbler is a nice bonus for the Seer, but not the main priority. I think Lottie's theory is valid, personally. And why even bother with that "if I was a Gifted" business?

#88 - Another vote count.

#91 - Another vote count.

#94 - Votes Inzil (a far cry from a) where her suspicions were and b) who she said she'd vote.)

#96 - Tells Nog to go to bed. :p




Thoughts -

Agan evidences suspicion of me (for being sneaky), but all day her main target was Lottie. The only thing she said about Inzil was in regards to defending Nogrod. Since the only reason I can see Agan voting Inzil is to save Nog, I find it interesting that the very first thing Agan says starting Day 2 is "I am torn about Nog" (which is a far cry from the absolute trust she had in him Day 1) but doesn't go on to explain why, really.

[Nogrod]

If there is nothing else going on, I'm going to take a quick look at yesterDay's voting as I feel myself quite at loss at the moment as to where to turn for this little while I have time to be around.

One clue I know and you may know at some point is that there was a run-off between two innocents yesterDay so the wolves had quite a laid-back Day1. I'll try to see if that shows anywhere there.


Other than that, I still suspect Greenie the most.
He criticized me for sticking to my suspicion of him based on his grasping at straws with Lottie even after he explained it, but the thing is, the explanation didn't convince me so here we are.That is the easy way out. Give some reasons so I can try to tell you why you're wrong.

Just saying: "blah-blah, say what you want, I just am not convinced" is not the most fruitful approach to a game of Werewolf. Especially if the other person has explained why the reasons the other one claims to suspect him are false.

Also, I find it at least a bit dubious she thinks it is okay to suspect others for "putting words into other peoples' mouths" and then does it herself - using that more or less as a basis for her vote... :rolleyes:

EDIT: X'd again with a few

[Pitchwife]

Okay. I hate doing this but as you seem to be so willing to speak about it in every other post Pitchie, then let me rephrase what I said yesterDay.
But I must say I don't understand why - if you really think yourself like you say you think - so why do you bring this up time and time after time? Even trying to exhaust all possible scenarios one might take! (Well, happily you missed mine) So like I said yesterDay: I wasn't first to speculate on Gal and I hope the wolves have now harder time to guess and second-guess what I know or guess or don't know and what should they think about it.
Of course I think like I say, and I've brought it up time and again because, like you said yourself, "it's already been voiced over".
But actually, I've got to admit I'd skimmed over/neglected/forgotten Agan's teasing "night-scheming" comment to G55 until she just reminded me of it herself, so I was under the impression you had actually been the first to speculate about it. I now get what you seid to me yesterDay, so please disregard my #87 to you. My bad.

[quote=Nogrod;664653]And that's the end of this conversation on my part.[quote]
And mine.

[A Little Green]

That is the easy way out. Give some reasons so I can try to tell you why you're wrong.

Just saying: "blah-blah, say what you want, I just am not convinced" is not the most fruitful approach to a game of Werewolf. Especially if the other person has explained why the reasons the other one claims to suspect him are false.

Also, I find it at least a bit dubious she thinks it is okay to suspect others for "putting words into other peoples' mouths" and then does it herself - using that more or less as a basis for her vote... :rolleyes:Take it down a notch, please. You're implying here that I'm purposefully disregarding another player (you, in this case), which is both unkind and untrue.

There's a difference between blah-blah and not buying an argument. If you really think this is a subject we should waste our energy on, then fine. You wanted to know why I'm not convinced by your further defence of your argument against Lottie, right? The original argument was as follows:
Okay. My initial reason to suspect Lottie more than Zil from their more or less similar actions (turning their wheels on Bom) was that unlike Zil who added the "it might be taken in many ways", Lottie went on saying "never mind, then".

Now it is hard for me to see any innocent saying that because someone acts suspiciously - and that is his habit - then there is no reaason to look after that person, that we should not mind ourselves with that person at all.

An innocent fears everyone as an innocent doesn't know the roles of others. Thus an innocent can't give a free pass to anyone. An innocent can't afford to say "never mind that person".I won't repeat what I said to this, would be a waste of time. Anyway, the following arguments are below.

And you are not reaching when you say Lottie meant "never mind that particular point against that person".

She said "never mind, then". And to me that reads like "I'll drop the suspicion", not "I'm watching him closely but will dismiss this particualr suspicion".I already quoted this one toDay, asking for clarification. Basically, there are a few problems with this one. First off, the difference between your two options of how it could be read seem, to me, to be more or less the same thing. Secondly, you seem to have forgotten that it was early on Day 1 and the original suspicion on Bom had not been a strong one. The "watching closely" part would have been quite unnecessary - it kind of goes without saying, at least to most of us, that dismissing a particular argument against somebody (especially early on Day 1) doesn't mean forgetting about them for the rest of the game. The way I read it, Lottie's "never mind" was referring to the particular point against Bom. She has confirmed this herself, which might be genuine or might not be.

Also, I think I made it clear why I think Lottie looks suspicious. Greenie seems to have had no time or wish to comment on my explanation on that (#47). And what I said in #55 doesn't make Greenie look any better.This is not a new argument, so I don't need to say much about it - basically, yes, you made it clear, but I didn't find the reasons very valid.

I just checked it: Greenie never mentions Zil in her late posting, even if he was under some considerable pressure. But she made her "decision" on me on grounds of defending Galadriel (for which there was no reason) and Lottie (to whom I was "reaching" - even if I had explained it in two posts why I said I was suspicious of her).

First of all it looks pretty wolvish to vote by "defending others" (in normal situations on D1 the only ones who can do it are wolves). But secondly it makes both Gal & Lottie look more innocent (neither was in dire straits and defending ordos is the best way for a wolf to gain trust and friendship).

But the fact she didn't mention Zil at all, despite the suspicions, makes me wonder if the two really are in cahoots...A couple of things. First, that you explained your reasons for your suspicion in two posts doesn't necessarily make those reasons any less far-fetched (and before you get worked up, yes, most reasons given on Day 1 are far-fetched). Second, that I suspect you based on your jumps on other players doesn't necessarily make the suspicion defensive by nature. Third, given that I had nothing to say about Zil, why should I have? Just to boost conversation on a topic I had nothing to contribute in and that was getting a bit too much attention as it was?


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch

[Nogrod]

Okay. Looking at yesterDay's voting then.

Galadriel -> Nerwen
Has been talked a lot and I will not delve into that any more than this. The vote is odd, but possibly understandable; but also a bit suspicious (suspicious in a way of choosing someone who hadn't appeared as yet like to avoid any nasty questions as to why pick X - and needing to show some posts to refer to).

Kath -> Zil
Kath is a deceased ordo.

Zil -> Nogrod
Zil is a deceased ordo.

Greenie -> Nogrod 2
Well, I've argued about the whimsiness of her suspicions already a few times. Now she was in a hurry to go to sleep and that might have been an excuse yesterDay, but as it seems she's still of the same mind I'm bound to think she's up to no good.


The "easy ones" were there. The rest requires some thinking (and re-reading).


EDIT: X'd with Greenie: good to hear from you.

[A Little Green]

X'd with Greenie: good to hear from you.Yeah, good to know the tendency to stay up later than is wise because of werewolf does run in the family! :D

[Pitchwife]

#79 - Agan dismisses outright Lottie's theory about Bom under her own theory that the risk of being dreamed is too great. Seems a bit silly to me - finding the cobbler is a nice bonus for the Seer, but not the main priority.
Can the Seer even see the cobbler? Admin thread just says
The raven then reports back to the Seer on that villager's role.
so that looks like yes, but usually they can't. Boro?
(This is just a minor point, though.)

Mentions Pitch is erroneous in saying "there was a wolf involved in the early talk". I agree here, but not to the extent that it makes Pitch looks suspicious like Agan thinks.
[...]
#58 - Defends Nog pretty passionately here, against Greenie (and this is in response to Inzil.) Puts more pressure on Pitch (and this looks somewhat like the beginning of a witchhunt.)
I appreciate the defense, but this is not how I read her. She was just questioning me on a statement I had made and made me explain it, which I think is normal procedure in WW. I've seen Agan witchhunting, and this isn't what it looks like (as you should actually know, if I'm not mistaken).
But Agan, how did Nog turn from someone you trusted enough to save his life yesterDay to a baddie you could imagine voting for toDay?

[Kitanna]

I've had the Chance to skim but not actually read. I just got some very bad RL news and so I won't be around again (I'm sending this hastily from my iPod).

++ greenie

I stated reasons earlier and since I do not the time to read all that's been said since I was last on please refer to that.

Provided I survive, I'll be back on Day 3.

[A Little Green]

I've had the Chance to skim but not actually read. I just got some very bad RL news and so I won't be around again (I'm sending this hastily from my iPod).
Hope everything's all right! *hug*

I'm really liking Shasta, having serious second thoughts about Agan, and (as yet) unchanged with regards to Nog. Speaking of which - please answer sooooon, because I'm yawning my head off and really need some sleep...

[Aganzir]

Okay. Galadriel says I'm "plain illogical" and Agan says I'm "surprisingly illogical".
I didn't say you were illogical now, and I probably couldn't give you any examples off the top of my head. The illogicality I mean is more of the kind of looking at the world through strongly wolf-coloured glasses with a la-la-la-not-listening attitude which you tend to have at times.

I wasn't first to speculate on Gal and I hope the wolves have now harder time to guess and second-guess what I know or guess or don't know and what should they think about it.
Yes you were. My remark about it was about as relevant as, well, any of the first posts.

You do annoy me, dear. I'm just trying very hard not to let that affect my opinion of your alignment. Actually, that's part of why I'm so undecided about you at the moment.
I always try that too but it never works, and laugh at me all you like, it worries me that you're not suspecting me. Last time I remember you doing this, you were a wolf and I wasn't.

Ahh now Shasta makes me feel special! Good thing he made the summary, otherwise I wouldn't remember what I thought on day 1.

For one, why assume Lottie didn't think of the other possibility and choose not to mention it (like an innocent should)? For another, why draw attention to a possible Gifted!Bom yourself in the first place? It doesn't sit right with me.
Because if I think someone is acting unusually (as opposed to suspiciously), I tend to keep it to myself until I've figured out if they're unusual in a good or a bad way. This means I don't accuse them before that - which Lottie basically did.
And Shasta might be a gifted. It's not even that unlikely, there's a 3/11 chance he's one. There. Am I drawing attention to a possible gifted? If I don't have an in-game reason for thinking someone is one, it can hardly be considered "drawing attention".

It's interesting to note that the only thing Agan has said about me thus far is that I "feel sneaky" and she still "feels bad" about me.
Yeah, I think so too. Usually I need a stronger suspicion to consider voting someone.

Mentions Inzil has already been voted for, but that she's "not sure if it was ever going to turn into a bandwagon" which is a comment I don't understand.
I believe it had to do with him being seemingly so concerned about saving his skin. He had been talked about but I wasn't sure if it was enough to earn him lots of votes yet, like he seemed to think.

Again, looks like a prelude to a wolf hunt - Agan looks like she's waiting to pounce on whatever answer Lottie gives, no matter what it is.
It was intended to be a prelude to a wolf hunt. If Shasta is a wolf, I suggest lynching Lottie next. ;)

I'm thinking of leaving apple cores in her bed for this.
You think I'd take you into my bed so soon after Kath's death??

#94 - Votes Inzil (a far cry from a) where her suspicions were and b) who she said she'd vote.)
Actually one of my vote counts has my name missing from the Left to vote list. That's because I had typed plus plus Shasta but then counted the votes again and figured it would be a complete throwaway and besides, it would be very unlike me to wash my hands from the lynch.

Now Lommy and Legate wandered into my room and asked if I'd still like to do something fun with them before going to bed and I said yes, so I'll be back a bit later.

[Nogrod]

First off, the difference between your two options of how it could be read seem, to me, to be more or less the same thing.And to me they look very different. This may be a question of semantics (or knowledge of language - to my inability then), but to me saying "never mind, then" is dismissing the whole idea, not the specific reason to suspect one.

Secondly, you seem to have forgotten that it was early on Day 1 and the original suspicion on Bom had not been a strong one. The "watching closely" part would have been quite unnecessary - it kind of goes without saying, at least to most of us, that dismissing a particular argument against somebody (especially early on Day 1) doesn't mean forgetting about them for the rest of the game.I never said anything about the "rest of the game". The way it could be seen is to momentarily hold back off the idea when one sees it's getting controversial and people don't like what you say.

On the other hand I must return the amazement about some people forgetting it was earlyish on D1 when this controversy began. So did you - or anyone else - think I was thinking of having "strong cases" (I'm afraid some did think that way regarding the odd posts about my "not so strong arguments")? It was D1 and all most people did was banter for 2/3's of the Day! What I said about Gal - which you think was reaching and a reason to vote for me - was actually a question as to whether she is a or b... and what I said about Lottie was making an interpretation of her words - of which you made your own...
The way I read it, Lottie's "never mind" was referring to the particular point against Bom. She has confirmed this herself, which might be genuine or might not be.Of course she confirmed it. Like you said, innocent or not, she had to confirm your interpretation. So I think you can not rely on that as a merit for your interpretation...

before you get worked up, yes, most reasons given on Day 1 are far-fetchedDon't worry. I need not get "worked up" as I totally agree. Although that is not always the case: I have seen good arguments on D1 - and even seen them giving results... but this game sure isn't one of them. Here we agree.

given that I had nothing to say about Zil, why should I have? Just to boost conversation on a topic I had nothing to contribute in and that was getting a bit too much attention as it was?Well, here reality has already proved me wrong as Zil was innocent. So I'm actually wondering why do you feel the need to explain it... or do you just wish to twist the knife in my belly by reminding me of my bad suspicion? :)

Yeah, good to know the tendency to stay up later than is wise because of werewolf does run in the family!:D


PS. I hope I have not been "unkind" as you said back there. That has not been my intention.


EDIT: X'd with a lot it seems...

[Pitchwife]

Dang! I actually considered voting Kit toDay (see #128 above), but under these circumstances that would feel really mean.

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear that, Kit; hope it's not that bad.

[Nogrod]

Btw. Agan is the cobbler.

[Nogrod]

Uh-oh... Kit. Sad to hear that. Be brave.

[Pitchwife]

Btw. Agan is the cobbler.
What?

I mean, she might be for all I know, but do you have reasons or are you completely bonkers now?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Btw. Agan is the cobbler.

I knew it!

[A Little Green]

And to me they look very different. This may be a question of semantics (or knowledge of language - to my inability then), but to me saying "never mind, then" is dismissing the whole idea, not the specific reason to suspect one. OK, I think we're indeed discussing semantics here, but the thing is - the way I see it, the one specific argument was, at that point, "the whole idea".

What I said about Gal - which you think was reaching and a reason to vote for me - was actually a question as to whether she is a or b... and what I said about Lottie was making an interpretation of her words - of which you made your own... Concerning Gal - the whole bringing up of that question (whether Gal's offhand statement that her schedule happens to be less busy during Night phases is a sign of wolvery or not) seemed rather pointless to me. It just wasn't, in my opinion, a statement that could in any possible way be a wolf slip; therefore, even voicing it as an option as likely as it being just a comment on her timetable seemed and still seems fishy to me. Concerning Lottie - yes, we both made interpretations of her words, I'm not denying that. But that doesn't mean I can't still find your interpretation rather opportunistic.

Well, here reality has already proved me wrong as Zil was innocent. So I'm actually wondering why do you feel the need to explain it... or do you just wish to twist the knife in my belly by reminding me of my bad suspicion? :)No! I brought that up for two reasons. First, because when someone asks me a question I expect they want an answer, late or no; second, because I don't think it's a very valid argument against anybody that they don't take part in a certain conversation.

PS. I hope I have not been "unkind" as you said back there. That has not been my intention.I know it wasn't so I didn't take it badly, but just wanted to let you know that it could be taken that way.


EDIT: x-ed with Nog, Pitch, and Shasta

[A Little Green]

Btw. Agan is the cobbler.She's certainly taking pains to look like one, but in her case I'm unconvinced of whether she actually is one or not.

[Nogrod]

Sally 2 posts. Promised to be here this evening...

Galadriel and Nerwen 4 posts each. Little said thus far.

Bom 12 posts and promised to do things toDay - not seen him after that.

Bored ordos with bad morals? If they are wolves (some of them that is), then I'd just say they don't merit the spoils and we can say we are moral winners even if we lose.


Kit I think is out of the question at least for now for lynching. I started having some bad vibes from her becasue she sounded so reasonable, especially when she was talking about people who made "attacks" on me.

I mean if one learns something playing a lot of ww-games, it is that the people who are the nicest to you, people who back you in Daylight, most often stab you during the Night.

But like I said I'm not going to vote her toDay anyway.


That leaves us (me) little choice - and still too much, looking at the clock...

[Nogrod]

She's certainly taking pains to look like one, but in her case I'm unconvinced of whether she actually is one or not.Well, it does merit lynching her sooner or later... I was quite annoyed and confused about the way she strongly defended me yesterDay - but at the same time very happy because she was right of course and was in no way going to open this discussion back then.

[Pitchwife]

This row between Agan and Shasta is interesting. Shasta's accusation of Agan pointing out a possibly gifted Bom is twisted (and was so yesterDay), because it rests on the equation "unusual = possibly gifted", and it has I think been agreed that Bom wasn't behaving unusual (by his standards), so the question of his being gifted because of that is moot to begin with.

And I kinda get what Agan says about Shasta reminding her of himself as a wolf. Much as I agree with him on not discussing gifteds, I've seen a Shastawolf using that same argument against innocents - which doesn't say, however, that an innocent Shasta can't do the same. I just can't read him.

Agan, on the other hand, is a sphinx to me (I think she'll like that). At times sensible, at times flamboyantly weird in a manner that reminds me of Fea. I'd still like to hear her explain her change of mind on Nog.


EDIT: x-ed from #145 down

[A Little Green]

Pitch is so logical and reasonable that it's almost scary. I sincerely wish he's on our side.

[A Little Green]

Bleh. Really need to go to bed now. I probably won't surprise anyone with this one -

++ Nogrod

[Nogrod]

So the people playing (other than me) and available for lynching if we disregard those you can't say anything and Kit (for obvious reasons now):
Aganzir
Greenie
Lottie
Pitch
Shasta

At this point I must admit I'd rather see you all face another Day and let those silent submarines take the hit as this game will become very dull and boring if even few of those who actually post and talk are lynched... whatever the cost of that decision might be.

Let me hear what you think.

And I really need to vote quite soon. Really, this time.


EDIT: X'd with Greenie - now self-preservation mode says "vote Greenie"... oh my... gets too complicated.

[Pitchwife]

Pitch is so logical and reasonable that it's almost scary. I sincerely wish he's on our side.
That depends which side you're on. And at the moment I'm rather worried by getting that much trust. Like Nog said in #148, those who are nicest to you...

Nog, if you're fooling me this time, I swear I'll sneak into Finland somehow and put explosives in your cigarettes.

[Galadriel55]

Back and reading.

[Loslote]

So I'm afraid I can only pop on for a moment before I have to leave - I still haven't finished the reading and I've got less than an hour before it needs to be done. :o

I am feeling much better about Greenie after toDay's posting, and even Nog's posts are feeling more like a frustrated innocent than a wolf...and I feel good about Shasta and Pitchie, too. Basically...who's up for an Agan lynch?

[Pitchwife]

At this point I must admit I'd rather see you all face another Day and let those silent submarines take the hit as this game will become very dull and boring if even few of those who actually post and talk are lynched... whatever the cost of that decision might be.
You know, I have such a hard time to figure out you talking folks I could actually get behind that.
sally said she'd be back before DL, and I'm inclined to wait still a little for her. Which leaves the self-declared cobbler (Bom), the backstabber and the backstabbée.

EDIT: xed with G55 and Lottie.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

So I'm afraid I can only pop on for a moment before I have to leave - I still haven't finished the reading and I've got less than an hour before it needs to be done. :o

I am feeling much better about Greenie after toDay's posting, and even Nog's posts are feeling more like a frustrated innocent than a wolf...and I feel good about Shasta and Pitchie, too. Basically...who's up for an Agan lynch?


-Raises hand, unsurprisingly-

[Nogrod]

Nine votes (possibly) to come.

Kit -> Greenie
Greenie -> Nogrod

You know, I have such a hard time to figure out you talking folks I could actually get behind that.
sally said she'd be back before DL, and I'm inclined to wait still a little for her. Which leaves the self-declared cobbler (Bom), the backstabber and the backstabbée.I kind of agree - but as we know, that always begs the question, are we trying to make "too easy" decisions? If Bom would be innocent I'd hate to have been part of his lynching - but then again not playing isn't kind of in the spirit of the game either.

who's up for an Agan lynch?I might be. But the problem is that she will come back and I need to go to sleep, pronto - and I can see her speaking you all (especially those who will / may come in at the late stages) away from that. Possibly ending in my own lynching which I preferred not to happen.

But I'd feel better voting Agan than Greenie. I still suspect Greenie and I think I have good reasons for it. It's just that I started wawering with my thoughts reading her posting late toDay... although her vote pick still screams to me she was just sweet-talking only to vote from wolvish grounds.

Gah.

[Loslote]

Alright, I've got to go read about Sicilians fighting some Athenians, so I'll go ahead and

++Agan

Because, of all the people who have been posting at all yesterDay or toDay, she's the only one who consistantly gives me a funny taste in my mouth - for agreeing with Nog so much yesterDay (that's why I didn't think they could be in a wolf-pack together; they were arguing too similarly. But, as I've started to reconsider my suspicion of Nog because of his posting toDay, I've reopened the question of Agan's guilt) and for her not exactly helpful arguementativeness throughout the game.

EDIT: xed with Nog

[Nogrod]

I'll go with it then as it seems the most right thing to do now.

++ Aganzir


I know Greenie can fool me big time, but considering the very slight odds of getting a wolf by lynching a quiet person (and the justified case of a moral victory if the submarines win in the end) and the risk of Greenie being after all an innocent one I feel more comfortable with this.

We'd at least be hanging someone with no good intentions.


Good Night and good luck!

[Pitchwife]

I'd rather hear Agan reply to what's been said in her absence.

I'd like to give both Nog and Greenie another Day, Shasta as well, and I've seen nothing particularly furry in Lottie (yet). So as far as I'm concerned, you can safely go to bed, Nog.


EDIT: xed with The Man Himself.

[Aganzir]

So sorry it took me so long to get back, we started writing Joulu cards and time passed quicker than I thought.

But Agan, how did Nog turn from someone you trusted enough to save his life yesterDay to a baddie you could imagine voting for toDay?
I wouldn't say I trusted him enough to save his life yesterday... I just had decided to trust him, if that makes sense. I am reckless on day 1s. I usually calm down a bit later on, and the difference between yesterday and today was that I decided to stop not treating him critically.
I didn't intend to pose as the seer if that's what you guys think - or I kind of did, but didn't really. Anyway having done what I did, I can now look back and see people's reactions. Shasta's is my favourite: he basically writes a post with comments that strongly emphasise my change of mind, but the only thing he sees about them is my being a villain. I wonder why.

Btw. Agan is the cobbler.
Am not!

Agan, on the other hand, is a sphinx to me (I think she'll like that).
I do! :)

Nog, if you're fooling me this time, I swear I'll sneak into Finland somehow and put explosives in your cigarettes.
Just so you know, you just made an entire apartment roar with laughter. :D:D

I intend to vote for Shasta today, but I could also go for Greenie or Nog.

[Aganzir]

Kit - Green
Green - Nog
Lottie - Agan
Nog - Agan 2

Left: Agan, Bom, Gal, Nerwen, Pitch, sally, Shasta

[Aganzir]

Oh and Pitch guess what I'm going to do if you're a baddie? Hint: it has to do with Germany, cigarettes and explosives! ;)

I don't like there being so few people around. I'd really love to lynch Shasta but I'm worried it might be difficult!

[Aganzir]

And Boro what's your modkill policy? Because if it's two consecutive non-votes, sally should go today, right?

[Aganzir]

I am worried Nog is the cobbler who tries to get me lynched today and maybe go down tomorrow himself for an easy-ish wolf victory on day 4.

Grr where is everyone?

[Galadriel55]

Skimming only - no time to read thoroughly...

Erg. I was going to post an analysis of Zil now that he (thank you G55) is a known innocent, but it ended up a mess. Mine always do.

What do I have to do with that?

I dunno - false traces are still traces, aren't they?

Problem is, Kath leaves no clear trace. But that's past discussion already.

Okay. Galadriel says I'm "plain illogical" and Agan says I'm "surprisingly illogical". Now that actually makes me interested, not that I'm too happy to discuss me as we have other things to do and talking about someone also heightens the chance of that person being lynched, but just out of curiosity: could you please show me some illogicality as I do doubt having been illogical. Actually I would be quite confused and ashamed if I had been illogical.

I'm not gonna go through the whole thread, and I don't have time for that, and I didn't say that all - or even most - of your arguments are. As an example:

So even if I see what Greenie and some others say, I'm not going to let Bom slip by just for that being "normal" to him.

Personally, I don't see how this works. You make it sound like either Bom's behaviour is ignored, or he's a suspect for it. There's still room for an in-between there. If you want to be Gandalf, find a real Balrog first. ;)

Or this one:

It is interesting we have three people sending silly lists to begin the game - and those people are also the most vocal ones thereafter... If I was a wolf with a bold team we could do something like that just to have fun with it. So Kit, Galadriel and Bom?

Probably not. But then again I'd be surprised if they all are goodies... I just don't think that general air there is free from foul.

Whatever that's supposed to mean. You're suggesting that there's a baddie in the first 4 posters (including Sally), but you've just taken that out of the air.

I sometimes make confusing posts too - posts that don't make sense to at least some villager. And I would not put you on the suspicion list based on the fact that I disagree with what you wrote.

But as I read, you make a defense about yourself in general... A very good one, if not too good. It makes me feel uneasy...

Pitch is so logical and reasonable that it's almost scary. I sincerely wish he's on our side.

Well, that depends on which side you're on. ^.^

Wait... Pitch said the exact same thing?! :eek: (I just got to his post)



Voting either Agan or Nog. They are attracting way to much attention for my peace of mind. I haven't commented on Agan since most of her posts have been chewed already by others in my absence.

Edit: eaten by a lioness... (aka xed)

[Pitchwife]

I wouldn't say I trusted him enough to save his life yesterday
Which is what you did.

I didn't intend to pose as the seer if that's what you guys think - or I kind of did, but didn't really.
That's one option I considered yesterDay, but I could also imagine you and him as packmates; or, since I don't think you'd defend a packmate that openly, your actions would make even more sense for a cobbler who thought Nog might be a wolf.

I'd really love to lynch Shasta but I'm worried it might be difficult!
I'm not fully at ease about him, but for toDay, I'm afraid you'd have to do that without me.

[satansaloser2005]

We must celebrate the joys in Boro's life! Sing with me, my fellow villagers!


Shasta:
Boromir, I really must admit it
You sure were a special kind of mod
We’ll all miss you, sir
But I guess it ensures
That we don’t have you and Sally acting odd

Sally:
His name is....Boromir
Did it get hot in here?
I think he might be near
I just might swoon

Shasta: You two :rolleyes:

Sally:
Boro, I love you so
Why did you have to go?
I had yet to :Merisu:

Yes, that’s my Boromir
He’s always full of cheer
He likes to flirt with dear old me
And if he’s really dead
We’ll have a boring thread
And I may have to scream

You're a mod who really is just playing
With all of our tiny simple minds
You’re not really dead! Saw it on the thread!
So that must mean you’re still really mine

*cupcake dance*

His name is Boromir
And he’s still posting here
Through Nights we’ll scheme our lives away

Shasta:
No way...

Sally:
I’m just so happy since
I found my long-lost prince

Shasta:
Sally, will you just accept that Boro’s mostly D-E-

Sally:
D-E-N-Y

Everyone:
He died!

Sally: Aw, guys! :(


(Original here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU98OlAjP2Y). That is all. Now that I've rushed that along, it's time to get down to business (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS5dEeMX64).)

[Aganzir]

Voting either Agan or Nog.
How about Shasta because he'd me my favourite lynch choice? I know he's going to vote for me so I'm going to end up with at least 3 votes... So actually at the moment I think voting for Green or Nog would be better for me.

Also I apologise if I'm not being coherent, it's 3 am and we have been imbibing spirited drinks.

[Aganzir]

Which is what you did.
I know. It's like... I didn't want him to die, but not because I actually trusted him but because I had decided, after reading his first posts, that he was reasonable enough and I was going to stick with him for that day.

[Aganzir]

Pitch who are you planning to vote for? And sally?

[satansaloser2005]

So let me get this straight....

Agan is a cobbler; thus sayeth Nog. But Nog is acting strangely as far as I can see it, so while I'm inclined to believe him, I'm not inclined to trust his motives. Bom is clearly insane and, as always, a self-confessed cobbler. This time I'm not reacting to it, at least at this stage in the game. The interaction between Pitch and Agan is interesting to me, so I'm thinking I'd vote for one of them, but that would be agreeing with Nog, another person I suspect, so I'm not entirely sure what to do.

Boro, darling, can't you just vote for me? :Merisu:

[satansaloser2005]

Pitch who are you planning to vote for? And sally?

Convince me not to vote for you, you sultry minx.

[Galadriel55]

Grr where is everyone?

Here, cursing the traffic...



Last update on impressions:

Pitch still looks innocent.

Agan and Nog attract too much attention.

Greenie still sensible, but... I don't know. Can't decide about her.

Bom and sally are hiding. Nerwen is nowhere to be found either. But I want to see her more than the other two. This game is the first game that I played in that she doesn't freak me out, and, considering how sharp she is, it's quite a thing. I want more evidence for this phenomenon.

Lottie seems innocent... but again, she's a bit too sweet-tongued for my taste.

Kit... no opinion.

Edit: forgot Shasta. His Aganalysis is not at all unreasonable.

Edit2: xed with Sally

[Aganzir]

Convince me not to vote for you, you sultry minx.
I am innocent.

There.

[Boromir88]

And Boro what's your modkill policy? Because if it's two consecutive non-votes, sally should go today, right?

I really hadn't considered it at all to be honest, it slipped my mind. How? :rolleyes:

I think since I didn't even have any policy in the Admin thread it would only be fair that if starting today. If anyone doesn't vote for 2 consecutive days (barring some convincing argument that the person makes me aware of) then you'll be modfired. Starting today, so those who didn't vote on Day 1, it won't count against them. But 2 consecutive days of not voting from this point on, is a modfire.

[satansaloser2005]

Bom and sally are hiding.

Boo.

[Aganzir]

And if you decide to kill me, I freaking want you to check out that Shasta because he so rubs me the wrong way.

[Pitchwife]

Oh and Pitch guess what I'm going to do if you're a baddie? Hint: it has to do with Germany, cigarettes and explosives! ;)

<- Das ist kein wolf.

I am worried Nog is the cobbler who tries to get me lynched today and maybe go down tomorrow himself for an easy-ish wolf victory on day 4.

Grr where is everyone?
How about we find out whether he spoke truth, and if he didn't, I promise I'll examine Shasta tomorrow?

So, yeah, let's.
++Agan

EDIT: x-ed with the world & his wife

[satansaloser2005]

++Nog

EDIT: X'd. Oh bother....

[Aganzir]

Go ahead then. Nogrod spoke a lie. Lies and slander!

++SHASTANIS ALTHREDUIN

And we'll see who laughs last. ;)

Tee-hee at least I now get to be out later on Saturday! But I'm still kind of mad you're actually doing this. *makes a mental note to behave herself next time*

[Galadriel55]

++Nog
Edit: xed with a lot

[Shastanis Althreduin]

++Aganzir

[Aganzir]

Whoops. I totally wasn't thinking. We could still have lynched Nog. :( Sorry!

[Boromir88]

Dead line. Stop posting.

(Definitely don't post after this. I saw the list of non-votes and I am not a happy person - unless there's like 4 cross votes with this post).

[Boromir88]

Agan be the lynch and she was an (you'll get a lovely narration to join your wifey later)....

ordinary villager.

LIVING

Bom...Cobbler.
Galadriel55...Cook.
Greenie...Undertaker.
Kitanna...Cooper.
Loslote...Candlestick Maker.
Nogrod...Wine-maker from Dorwiniondil.
Nerwen...Town crier.
Pitchwife...Shepherd.
Sally...most prestigious Musician and Poet of Lake-town.
Shasta...Notable miscreant.

DEAD

Boro...King's Secretary - Night 1
Inziladun...Furrier (Ordo) - Day 1
Kath...Baker (Ordo) - Night 2.
Agan...Baker's wife (Ordo) - Day 2

Those with nightly activities. Carry on.

[Boromir88]

Dawn came again for most of the villagers of Lake-town, but as the previous dawn, it was a red one. And all understood that meant there was at least another death in the night.

"Where's the shepherd?" asked Bom as the townsfolk began to gather together again.

"He likes keeping his flock closer to the mountains." said Galadriel55. "He's got a further walk. Or maybe he's still asleep?"

Most looked as if they wanted to believe her, but Nerwen had already began to tear up and the rest knew he was likely the next victim. As if they were led against their will, the people made their way towards the mountains.

There was no sign of Pitch, but huddled around in a circle were his flock of sheep. sally broke through the wall of baaa's and wool to find Pitch bloody and maimed on the grass. It was clear the werewolves got to him and the sheep were lamenting over their shepherd, or they were just dumb sheep.

"How odd?" chuckled the Undertaker. "Who knew a pack of wolves that didn't like sheep?"

The Undertaker may have been right, but the people of Esgaroth understood now...they were the sheep. The Shepherd was another ordo, but time was running out if they didn't find the wolf-pack quickly.

LIVING

Bom...Cobbler.
Galadriel55...Cook.
Greenie...Undertaker.
Kitanna...Cooper.
Loslote...Candlestick Maker.
Nogrod...Wine-maker from Dorwiniondil.
Nerwen...Town crier.
Sally...most prestigious Musician and Poet of Lake-town.
Shasta...Notable miscreant.

DEAD

Boro...King's Secretary - Night 1
Inziladun...Furrier (Ordo) - Day 1
Kath...Baker (Ordo) - Night 2.
Agan...Baker's wife (Ordo) - Day 2
Pitch...Shepherd (Ordo) - Night 3

It's now Day 3.

And I was worried there wouldn't be enough Ordos in this village. :eek:

[Galadriel55]

Noooo!!! :( What has our shepherd ever done to you wolves? He's not a boy, and he didn't cry "wolf"...

Or did he? I'm going over his posts.

[satansaloser2005]

Galadriel, please answer a question for me.

Are you an ordo? Or do you have a specific role? Please don't say which one, and of course don't expect me to necessarily believe you, but answer nonetheless.

[Galadriel55]

Galadriel, please answer a question for me.

Are you an ordo? Or do you have a specific role? Please don't say which one, and of course don't expect me to necessarily believe you, but answer nonetheless.

What kind of question is this? We're all ordos here, remember? It's just that some of us secretly aren't, and they won't tell you about it. I'm just as ordinary as you are, or seem, or try to seem. And if you're sensible you wouldn't pay too much attention to that last sentence, because everyone would tell you that, regardless of role.

What exactly is the point of your question? And what did you expect for an answer?

And I smell something in your post. If you ask a person to tell you if they have a special role, you might as well ask which one. Like it helps anyone if it's kept quiet. Why does your post alarm me so much? (rhetorical question)




Anyways. I've skimmed the thread and found nothing extraordinary (no pun intended) about our deceased shepherd - may he rest in peace - except that he suspected Kit strongly enough to vote her, but gave her a pass for RL reasons. I'm not sure that it means anything, but that's that.

Nog, on the other hand, is more clear. I doubt he expects to live through toDay, but time will tell. He could be a wolf trying to look like a cobbler, but this is unlikely since he knew he'd be revealed after Agan's death. An even more unlikely possibility is that he's an innocent who was sure he caught Agancobbler and was impersonating the Seer and killing two hares at the same time (getting rid of the cobbler and protecting the real Seer). The likeliest option is that he's a cobbler who impersonated the Seer who labeled Agan with his own role, thus ensuring his death - but helping the wolves tremendously. And we cannot afford to lose more people.

Looking at the numbers, we have a ratio of 1:1:1 of ordos to wolves to gifteds. We have 1/3 chance of lynching either one. We have to choose very carefully toDay.

[Galadriel55]

ToDay I will just pretend to be deaf to his posts and try my best to ignore his comments. If he's serving for the evil side (which I'm almost 100% sure he is) he'll try to use all kinds of tricks on us before he dies (if he dies, but he'll use them either way), and personally I don't want my mind muddled with reverse psychology and associations and whatnot from him. He sure knows how to confuse people. I don't want to be led around by him to a wrong direction.

[satansaloser2005]

"Let me tell you what's been going on- No, there's too much, it would take too long. Let me distill it for you."

We have nine villagers remaining. Those villagers are:

Shasta
Bom
Nog
Sally
Galadriel
Greenie
Kitanna
Loslote
Nerwen

Among those villagers are the following:

Three werewolves
One seer
One ranger
One hunter
Two ordos

I think our best option four toDay is, well, the obvious.

Massive reveals, everyone? If so, I'd be happy to start (or rather, finish). :smokin:

[Nerwen]

I don't know, Sally– I'd say we could end up with a nasty mess of competing reveals. There's still four baddies around.

[satansaloser2005]

Kill me, and I can almost assure you there will only be three.

[Bom Tombadillo]

Aaand that would be you following along with your plan, then?

While the reveals could indeed get messy, I'm inclined to support the plan. Maybe I'm biased, since I've only been in one game with any gifted reveals at all and it turned out well, but . . .

[satansaloser2005]

Aaand that would be you following along with your plan, then?

While the reveals could indeed get messy, I'm inclined to support the plan. Maybe I'm biased, since I've only been in one game with any gifted reveals at all and it turned out well, but . . .

Well, go on then. Be ye ordo or not?

[Bom Tombadillo]

Sheesh, rushing much? :p My internets spontaneously went out for a second just as I was about to edit my post. I'm an ordo.

[Kitanna]

Massive reveals, everyone? If so, I'd be happy to start (or rather, finish). :smokin:

Judging by this and your Kill me, and I can almost assure you there will only be three.
Either you're very furry or you're doing exactly as a cobbler should by trying to create mass confusion. Because a round of revealings would do just that.

[Galadriel55]

Two ordos

:rolleyes: How could I forget about the cobbler? But he still counts innocent in the tally, and we need all the innocents we can get, just to outnumber the wolves.

I'm an ordo.

Right, that goes back to what I said. We all are. The wolves are not going to say "we are the wolves".

Kill me, and I can almost assure you there will only be three.

Nay, dear cupcake, let us not kill anyone for no reason. If you indeed are what you pose to be, we would lose an innocent as well. Why not just eliminate the wolf, and keep the innocent?





Seer and Ranger, I don't think it's a good idea for you to reveal right this moment, whoever you are. Especially Ranger - you're the village's last hope (Estel... how fitting...). Everyone makes blunders, but this Night please do try to make a save. (you would even if I didn't tell you to, so why am I telling you that?)

Edit: xed with Kit

[satansaloser2005]

“Lynches happen. Every day – don’t they, village?” And now Sally’s voice was stronger as she addressed the group, who one by one heard her words, their vote power still in hand.

The villagers were unsure who to listen to this day, and accusations would soon be flashing in their hands. “Kill the most suspicious,” they all said, advancing.

Sally gave a soft shake of her head. “No,” she corrected. “++Sally.”

It was an odd phrase, and for the moment it brought everyone up short. Besides, what was Sally’s plan this time? Where was the trap? “I don’t think I quite understand that," one of them said.

Sally held her vote still but she was smiling more deeply now. “I’ll be only too delighted to explain.” It was four against the five now. One day left. (There may not even be that. She did not know. He could she know it would work?)

Slowly, carefully, she began to talk....




(And I'm going to make you all wait until my morning for the rest.)

[Galadriel55]

Either you're very furry or you're doing exactly as a cobbler should by trying to create mass confusion.

Or you're missing something that at least I consider obvious.

I will skim the thread for an answer to those ors.

Edit: xed with Sally

[satansaloser2005]

I should have broken the ordos out on my first post, but I neglected to do so, for which I apologize.

Remaining:
Three werewolves
One seer
One ranger
One hunter
One cobbler
One ordo


ETA: Also, I don't really want the other gifteds to reveal, but that much should have been obvious.

[Nerwen]

Pitch, Day One.

#36. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664513&postcount=36)
Is "not convinced of Zil's innocence". Defends G55 against Nogrod, who saw her comments about "Nights" as a possible wolf-slip; points out that he should have kept his thoughts about her giftedness to himself. Finds Zil more suspicious than Lottie. Not worried about Bom; wants to hear more from Kit; finds Shasta and Agan somewhat sneaky and says he will "see" about Shasta; "no read" on Greenie. "sees nothing" pointing to my being a wolf.

Comment: Not a terribly Seerish-looking post, given that the person he most suspects is Zil – but the repeated use of "see" might have been taken as meaning something.


#40. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664517&postcount=40)
Mildly defends Zil; dislikes G55's vote, but doesn't find it necessarily wolvish.


#46. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664524&postcount=46) Tells Bom his copycat suspicions are themselves suspicious, and wants him to explain why he suspects me. Replying to Zil, who says he "Wants to lynch to be on the safe side", says "I have similar feelings about more than one player in this game."


#71. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664553&postcount=71)
Admonishes [B]Nog again for his speculations on G55; defends Lottie, is considering voting Nog; also suspects Kit.


#80. Vote-post.

Time for me to count my metaphoric sheep.

I'm actually quite inclined to vote Nog, but I haven't yet digested the recent discussion about him wholly, and I'd rather not do it in the heat of the moment. So I'll stick with my earlier suspicion:

++Zil

Forgetting about G55's vote sounds almost unbelievable enough to be true, but it still smells of retconning, and I'm not happy with his pounce on Nerwen in the first place. Let's find out.

General comments: reading through Pitch's posts, there's a general "vibe" there that I think could be taken as "gifted". If we go from the assumption that the wolves thought he was the Seer, it's a bit difficult to know who his supposed "dream" would have been– I'd say either me, G55, Lottie, Kit or Nog, the latter two as baddies. However, in the end he voted for Zil (innocent).

EDIT:X'd with a host.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kit
Either you're very furry or you're doing exactly as a cobbler should by trying to create mass confusion.
Or you're missing something that at least I consider obvious.
Oh, it's obvious enough what she's claiming to be– I mean, it's gone beyond hinting– but there's a question of why she'd really want to do this now.

[satansaloser2005]

Oh, it's obvious enough what she's claiming to be– I mean, it's gone beyond hinting– but there's a question of why she'd really want to do this now.

Mostly because I miscounted. I thought there were eight people, not nine, and I submitted my post only to realize that I'd forgotten to count myself. (ETA: Which is to say that I thought toDay was endgame, and that we might have to resort to drastic measures.)

If we have no direction toDay, however, it's an obvious solution, so I likely would have come out with it at some point anyway. Besides, the wolves will not attack me at Night (since they don't know who I've chosen as my target), which will leave us with a weapon for toMorrow. It's worked before. It will work again.

Also, I figured I'd save everyone the trouble of analyzing what little I've posted. Our efforts are best spent figuring out who I should be hunting and who we should be lynching.

[Galadriel55]

I should have broken the ordos out on my first post, but I neglected to do so, for which I apologize.

Remaining:
Three werewolves
One seer
One ranger
One hunter
One cobbler
One ordo

But there's 9 players, not 8. There's 2 ordos and 1 cobbler.

General comments: reading through Pitch's posts, there's a general "vibe" there that I think could be taken as "gifted". If we go from the assumption that the wolves thought he was the Seer, it's a bit difficult to know who his supposed "dream" would have been– I'd say either me, G55, Lottie, Kit or Nog, the latter two as baddies. However, in the end he voted for Zil (innocent).

I doubt he could have been thought of dreaming Nog - he chose Agan over him yesterDay, when was the perfect chance to lynch him. And if he dreamed Kit, why did he go for Zil? He only mentions her in one post. Same thing with Lottie (well, twice...). Then, I don't think that your reasoning for you and I on the list is entirely correct. Again, the wolves could have thought that he dreamed either me or you, but really - neither of us participated much, and Pitch wasn't the only one who talked a bit about my vote and your IC post. It's not impossible that the wolves thought him Seer based on that, but there are too many ifs.

And I don't feel the "gifted vibe" you talk about - more like an "innocent who's trying his darn best" vibe.

Moreover, even if you accept that the wolves thought Pitch dreamed of one of the 5 people you mention - it one of the five. It's his suspicion list, not his dream.

In other words, I disagree with you that he was thought to be the Seer. More likely he was killed so that the village would think they thought he's the Seer and would try to find clues in his posts that would lead in the wrong direction.

Edit: xed with Nerwen and Sally

[satansaloser2005]

See? I did it again. Goodness. I think that's the cue for my bedtime.

We have nine people. Let's lynch a wolf or lynch me. Either one is fine with me.

Good night, children.

[Galadriel55]

You know what, sally? I trust you. I am willing to take the risk of believing someone in WW.

[Nerwen]

In other words, I disagree with you that he was thought to be the Seer.
Eh? I didn't actually say I thought that either. I was looking at it as a theory, and seeing if the facts fit, and what, if anything, could be deduced– which is not the same thing.

More likely he was killed so that the village would think they thought he's the Seer and would try to find clues in his posts that would lead in the wrong direction.
True– but the Night-kill still has to be looked at. And then there's the question of why they would do that, instead of actually trying for gifteds. (Wolf in trouble, perhaps?)

But anyway, I still haven't looked at Pitch on Day Two.

EDIT:X'd with G55.

[Galadriel55]

Eh? I didn't actually say I thought that either.

General comments: reading through Pitch's posts, there's a general "vibe" there that I think could be taken as "gifted". If we go from the assumption that the wolves thought he was the Seer, it's a bit difficult to know who his supposed "dream" would have been...

(underlining mine)

I smell burned dough.



(Am I misunderstanding something here? Do you mean "think" as in "my guess if this theory is true"? In that case, you really ought to be clearer.)




Alright, bedtime for me (rather, way past it). I hope to see some progress in wolf-eliminating when I wake up tomorrow my time.

[Nerwen]

(Am I misunderstanding something here? Do you mean "think" as in "my guess if this theory is true"? In that case, you really ought to be clearer.)
Yes, that is what I meant. I thought it was clear enough, but apparently not.

You do understand that what I'm doing here is pretty much standard procedure, right? What's the problem?

[Nerwen]

And why "burned dough"?:confused:

[A Little Green]

ToDay I will just pretend to be deaf to his posts and try my best to ignore his comments. If he's serving for the evil side (which I'm almost 100% sure he is) he'll try to use all kinds of tricks on us before he dies (if he dies, but he'll use them either way), and personally I don't want my mind muddled with reverse psychology and associations and whatnot from him. He sure knows how to confuse people. I don't want to be led around by him to a wrong direction.Er - what? This almost makes me feel better about Nog, you know. Looks too much like the wolves having decided during the night to lynch Nog during the Day, and Gal enters the Day considering it a done deal that Nog's the one to lynch. And even if that isn't the case, I don't think anyone can afford to completely ignore someone because they've decided that person's evil. Not at this phase.

I'm not happy with Sally's reveal, either. What's the point of a Hunter reveal, anyway? It makes no sense for us to kill her, does it, we'd just let her decide the lynch instead of us, and lose two villagers instead of one. And if she's really the Hunter, there's no way the wolves are going to go after her now - thus narrowing their options for the Seer, and basically making her own gift useless. I don't get it. Posing as Hunter might be a feasible tack for a Wolf though, if she trusted that we won't choose to lynch her, or a Cobbler: ideally, we'd spend the Day discussing who she should take with her, and when she dies it all turns out to be for nothing. A complete waste of a Day with practically no danger to the wolves at all.

Gah. My head hurts. I have limited time toDay as well but I'll do my best.

[Kitanna]

I'm not happy with Sally's reveal, either. What's the point of a Hunter reveal, anyway?

Color me stupid, I completely ignored the fact she could be revealing as a hunter. :/ Must be the people I work with, they're low intelligence is finally rubbing off.

Posing as Hunter might be a feasible tack for a Wolf though, if she trusted that we won't choose to lynch her, or a Cobbler: ideally, we'd spend the Day discussing who she should take with her, and when she dies it all turns out to be for nothing. A complete waste of a Day with practically no danger to the wolves at all.

I remember when our mod posed as the seer and when the real seer (Shasta, perhaps?) came forward he was lynched that day. Sally hasn't said much for me to make any good judgement on her. There's a few things to consider.

1) Would a wolf false reveal when there's no danger for her yet? Doubtful unless she thought a packmate was in danger. A reveal causes a stir and other discussion would be diverted, at least for a short time.
2) Did Sally think she was being helpful? I had to drop out of a game once and I offered my hunter skills up to the village because it was earlier in the game. If Sally is innocent and truly the hunter she may think being sacrificed will take down a wolf too. The odds of getting a wolf are 1/3. Hitting another special role (excluding cobbler) is almost as likely though. And asking Sally to tell us her choice may force another valuable gifted to reveal. Why lose a known innocent, and one who is too dangerous to kill at night, when our village is so small?
3) Sally could still be a wolf or cobbler trying to create confusion, but now the real hunter would know who to go after.

I don't think Sally is a wolf. A cobbler? Maybe. The hunter? Maybe. As a wolf, doing a false reveal doesn't gain her anything, she wasn't in danger of being lynched. As the hunter, she becomes a known innocent that wolves might not want to kill because she could have one of them pegged. As a cobbler, she fulfills her role and we sit and debate instead of focusing our efforts on wolf catching.

I'm going to sleep a little while longer. When I return I'm going to scrutinize and comment on everything I missed Day 2.

[Nerwen]

Hear ye, hear ye! Unseasonable weather kept your Town Crier from her proclamations earlier in the Day, but all's well!

Er - what? This almost makes me feel better about Nog, you know. Looks too much like the wolves having decided during the night to lynch Nog during the Day, and Gal enters the Day considering it a done deal that Nog's the one to lynch. And even if that isn't the case, I don't think anyone can afford to completely ignore someone because they've decided that person's evil. Not at this phase.
We-ell, by her own account G55 was utterly convinced no innocent-Nog scenario could logically exist... but that does seem a little convenient. I can't say I've been getting much in the way of "wolf-vibes" from G55 in this game, though. Except maybe that she seems rather jittery about my Pitchalysis.

I'm not happy with Sally's reveal, either. What's the point of a Hunter reveal, anyway? It makes no sense for us to kill her, does it, we'd just let her decide the lynch instead of us, and lose two villagers instead of one. And if she's really the Hunter, there's no way the wolves are going to go after her now - thus narrowing their options for the Seer, and basically making her own gift useless. I don't get it.
And after the suicidal-hunter tactic worked so brilliantly last game...:rolleyes:

Posing as Hunter might be a feasible tack for a Wolf though, if she trusted that we won't choose to lynch her, or a Cobbler: ideally, we'd spend the Day discussing who she should take with her, and when she dies it all turns out to be for nothing. A complete waste of a Day with practically no danger to the wolves at all.
To echo Kit– it doesn't seem that useful for a wolf-Sally to do that, at this point. On the other hand–
As the hunter, she becomes a known innocent that wolves might not want to kill because she could have one of them pegged.
I still don't see why a Hunter would think that worth being more-or-less neutralised. (I know Sally already answered me on this point, but her answer really doesn't make much sense.)

[Nerwen]

Mind you–
If Sally is innocent and truly the hunter she may think being sacrificed will take down a wolf too. The odds of getting a wolf are 1/3. The odds of getting a wolf are 1/3. Hitting another special role (excluding cobbler) is almost as likely though. And asking Sally to tell us her choice may force another valuable gifted to reveal.
According to TEH ROOLZ, Bard is a Logical Hunter, so the total disaster of last game couldn't happen this time. It would still be a bizarrely wasteful and over-complicated manouevre, though.

[Galadriel55]

And why "burned dough"?

Burned potatoes. Better? I was saying that I thought you made a blunder.

Er - what? This almost makes me feel better about Nog, you know. Looks too much like the wolves having decided during the night to lynch Nog during the Day, and Gal enters the Day considering it a done deal that Nog's the one to lynch. And even if that isn't the case, I don't think anyone can afford to completely ignore someone because they've decided that person's evil. Not at this phase.

I think I have been pretty clear that I do not think Nog is wolf. That being said, he's most likely a cobbler known to the village. A cobbler messes things up - esecially one who is revealed. If he says "X is wolf", should I think that X is really not a wolf and Nog is just tricking me, or is he using reverse psychology on me, or is that just a random name drawn out of nowhere? I have better things to do toDay except for puzzling this out. And I do not want to chase down cobblers. I want to get a wolf. Now.

It makes no sense for us to kill her, does it, we'd just let her decide the lynch instead of us, and lose two villagers instead of one.

So you don't have faith that sally has a wolf on the edge of her, erm... pen?

I agree with you that we should just lynch the wolf and let sally choose a different target - hopefully another wolf - thus being more effective. But I don't find her furry for that. If I say that A is a wolf, you say that B is, and someone else says that C&D are, we can't have a proper organised lynch. Then, according to her, we lynch sally who takes out a wolf. The only problem is that we won't get an organised sally-lynch either. Some will say that it's our only chance, others will call it absurd.

And if she's really the Hunter, there's no way the wolves are going to go after her now - thus narrowing their options for the Seer, and basically making her own gift useless.

You're forgetting about the third gifted. The Ranger can do miracles.

ideally, we'd spend the Day discussing who she should take with her, and when she dies it all turns out to be for nothing.

No, we won't. She can't choose her pick during the Day. And it's supposed to be a surprise during the Night, a secret weapon, so why would we tell the wolves "sally's hunting X toNight"? This is a waste of gift. We should be trying to find a wolf, and she should make her pick based on that.

I have to say this about you, Greenie. You're starting to look more and more like a wolf trying to save a comrade by labeling sally guilty.


@Kit: If you think that sally could be the cobbler, which role do you think Nog has? They can't both be cobblers, and Nog just as good as fake-revealed Seer.


So far there's me and Bom thinking sally has the village's best intentions at heart, and Greenie and Nerwen thinking that she doesn't, and Kit undecided. Is that right?

Edit: xed with 2 Nerwens

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Greenie
And if she's really the Hunter, there's no way the wolves are going to go after her now - thus narrowing their options for the Seer, and basically making her own gift useless.
You're forgetting about the third gifted. The Ranger can do miracles.
Meaning?

Originally Posted by Greenie
ideally, we'd spend the Day discussing who she should take with her, and when she dies it all turns out to be for nothing.
No, we won't. She can't choose her pick during the Day. And it's supposed to be a surprise during the Night, a secret weapon, so why would we tell the wolves "sally's hunting X toNight"?
Um... I think Greenie's talking about a Sally–as–Cobbler scenario there, G55– though she certainly could have been clearer about it.

@Kit: If you think that sally could be the cobbler, which role do you think Nog has? They can't both be cobblers, and Nog just as good as fake-revealed Seer.
Well, what he did yesterDay was darned peculiar, I'll grant you that. Are you sure he meant it to be taken as a reveal, though? Seers can't usually see the Cobbler, after all. (Don't think that's been clarified for this game.)

So far there's me and Bom thinking sally has the village's best intentions at heart, and Greenie and Nerwen thinking that she doesn't, and Kit undecided. Is that right?
I'd say I'm more "undecided". I don't think what she's doing is in the village's interests– but I can't yet rule out that she thinks it is. It's hard to know where you are with Sally– she likes to pull weird stunts now and then, whatever her role.

[Nerwen]

Wait a minute–
I think I have been pretty clear that I do not think Nog is wolf. That being said, he's most likely a cobbler known to the village. A cobbler messes things up - esecially one who is revealed. If he says "X is wolf", should I think that X is really not a wolf and Nog is just tricking me, or is he using reverse psychology on me, or is that just a random name drawn out of nowhere? I have better things to do toDay except for puzzling this out. And I do not want to chase down cobblers. I want to get a wolf. Now.
I didn't get this before. Are you saying you *don't* want to lynch Nog, and that we should have realised this *because* you think he's a cobbler?

[satansaloser2005]

I thought there were only eight people left in the game. At that point, it's essentially game over unless we can be sure we kill the right person. By revealing as the hunter, I removed myself as a lynch target, which increased our chances of getting a wolf toDay, and if we realized partway through the Day that our target was another gifted, the hunter is always preferable to the ranger or seer as a lynch target. (ETA because the Downs somehow ate part of my post: Desperate times call for desperate measures, and it's the hunter's job to take drastic and suicidal measures.)

However, there are nine people left. Thus, I should have waited to reveal until toMorrow. I miscalculated and made a really, really stupid mistake, and I apologize for that.

This is going so very well. :rolleyes:

[satansaloser2005]

If we're in doubt about whether someone is wolf or cobbler, that person is not a wise lynch target for toDay.

[Galadriel55]

Meaning?

Exactly what I said. Kit is forgetting that the Ranger is also awake at Night.

Well, what he did yesterDay was darned peculiar, I'll grant you that. Are you sure he meant it to be taken as a reveal, though? Seers can't usually see the Cobbler, after all. (Don't think that's been clarified for this game.)

He left a few "clues" just before his "Agan is a cobbler". I am quite sure of it.

I didn't get this before. Are you saying you *don't* want to lynch Nog, and that we should have realised this *because* you think he's a cobbler?

Clarifying. Looking from his perspective, yesterDay he probably expected us to lynch him toDay, thus giving the wolves another Day in the lead. I suggest lynching a wolf, not a cobbler, so that we won't give the baddies the lead. Cobbler counts innocent in the tally, and I would like to use that as our advantage. Lynching wolf is more important than getting rid of a cobbler, especially at this stage.

Edit: xed with SallyX2

[Nerwen]

But didn't you know there were nine people by the time you revealed?

EDIT:X'd with Sally and G55. I'm replying to Sally here.

[Galadriel55]

But didn't you know there were nine people by the time you revealed?

#196 - sally reveals.

#209 - she finds her mistake.

[satansaloser2005]

But didn't you know there were nine people by the time you revealed?

EDIT:X'd with Sally and G55. I'm replying to Sally here.

Yeah. After I'd made the reveal post, I realized I couldn't count correctly.

Yesterday was a really long day. I have no other excuse.


ETA: x'd with Galadriel, who also confirms my stupidity

[satansaloser2005]

So....how about them werewolves?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen
Meaning?
Exactly what I said. Kit is forgetting that the Ranger is also awake at Night.
Unless this is a *very* special Ranger, he or she can't force the wolves to pick the Hunter– which I think is what was under discussion at that point.

He left a few "clues" just before his "Agan is a cobbler". I am quite sure of it.
Like what?

Clarifying. Looking from his perspective, yesterDay he probably expected us to lynch him toDay, thus giving the wolves another Day in the lead. I suggest lynching a wolf, not a cobbler, so that we won't give the baddies the lead. Cobbler counts innocent in the tally, and I would like to use that as our advantage. Lynching wolf is more important than getting rid of a cobbler, especially at this stage.

If we're in doubt about whether someone is wolf or cobbler, that person is not a wise lynch target for toDay.
But barring Seer-dreams, there is *always* that doubt in any game with a cobbler. We'd never lynch anyone at all, following your argument.

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nerwen
But didn't you know there were nine people by the time you revealed?
#196 - sally reveals.

#209 - she finds her mistake.

Yeah. After I'd made the reveal post, I realized I couldn't count correctly.

Yesterday was a really long day. I have no other excuse.

Mmn– except that you list nine villagers at #194, made before your reveal. I can't be the only one to have noticed that.

[Nerwen]

Anyway, here it is–

Pitch, Day Two.
#118. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664643&postcount=118)
Thinks Kath was a trailless kill. Still suspicious of Nog for his gifted-speculations. Asks Lottie to explain why she said Nog and Greenie might be packmates.

Comment: I don't think she has, yet. Lottie?

#128. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664655&postcount=128)
"Flip-flopping" about Kit. Her posts look "fair, balanced and independent", but she has done a very peculiar about-face overnight on Greenie, which he finds suspicious.

So yes, I know, wolves can be consistent while innocents may need to change their minds, but I'd still like to hear how "making a decent point" and "the best case for a lynch candidate" became "said a lot with saying a lot" and twisting words? Especially as Kit seems to me to be largely echoing Nog's self defense.


#132. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664659&postcount=132)
Accepts Nog's point that Agan, not he, was the first to speculate about G55.


#136. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664663&postcount=136)
Rule discussion; disagrees with Shasta that Agan is "witch-hunting" Pitch himself, but wants to know how Nog changed from "someone you [Agan] trusted enough to save his life yesterDay to a baddie you could imagine voting for toDay?"


#141. After Kit's bad-news announcement.
Dang! I actually considered voting Kit toDay (see #128 above), but under these circumstances that would feel really mean.

Anyway, I'm sorry to hear that, Kit; hope it's not that bad.


#144.
Originally Posted by Nog
Btw. Agan is the cobbler.
What?

I mean, she might be for all I know, but do you have reasons or are you completely bonkers now?
Well, yes, it's a very good question, isn't it? Where *is* Nogrod, anyway?


#150. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664679&postcount=150)
Shasta-Agan row "interesting". Shasta's case on Agan is "twisted", and Shasta himself rather reminiscent of Shastawolf. But he 'just can't read him". Agan, meanwhile, is "a sphinx".

Comment: this post does look quite a bit like Seer-code for "opinions not based on my dreams". I doubt that alone would be enough, though.


#154 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664683&postcount=154)
Dubious about Greenie's apparent trust in him.


#157 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664686&postcount=157)
"Could get behind" Nog's (inevitable!) suggestion to lynch the quiet ones.


#162. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664691&postcount=162)
Wants to hear more from Agan. Would like to give Nog, Shasta and Greenie more time. Has "seen nothing furry in Lottie (yet)".

Comment: that last is another *slightly* Seerish remark.


#169. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664699&postcount=169)
Thinks Nog and Agan could be packmates; "not fully at ease" about Shasta, but not ready to vote him.


#181. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664711&postcount=181)Votes Agan, to find out "if [Nog] speaks truth", promising to "examine Shasta toMorrow" if Agan turns out innocent.

Well, that was a lot of use.:rolleyes: The only things really noteworthy are his suspicions on Shasta and Kit, especially his saying he intended to vote the latter. However, it doesn't seem all that likely either of those would be taken as Seer-hints– his suspicion of Kit, for example, is clearly based on her posting. Is it possible a Kitwolf or a Shastawolf wanted him killed just because he was looking too dangerous? Or is that a reach? It does seem a pretty clumsy move.

[Loslote]

Alright, so...Sally's the Hunter. I'll believe her; revealing now seems like the sort of thing she would do. In fact, I think I've seen her do something very similar before as the Hunter (or maybe she was the Ranger and Shasta was the Hunter...it was a very confusing game). I agree that we shouldn't lynch her toDay, but rather than argue about how helpful her reveal was, I'd prefer to accept that she's done it and move on. Look on the positive side: we've narrowed down the list a bit. Our chances of killing us a wolf are a bit better than before.

Speaking of killing us a wolf, I'll be back in about half an hour with time to actually talk about suspiciony things.

[Nerwen]

Alright, so...Sally's the Hunter. I'll believe her; revealing now seems like the sort of thing she would do. In fact, I think I've seen her do something very similar before as the Hunter (or maybe she was the Ranger and Shasta was the Hunter...it was a very confusing game).

I don't know which game you mean, but yes, she's done this kind of thing before. Only– see my post at #230. Either she's *very* confused, or I've caught her in a lie. I'm not too willing to trust her after that.

[Loslote]

I don't know which game you mean, but yes, she's done this kind of thing before. Only– see my post at #230. Either she's *very* confused, or I've caught her in a lie. I'm not too willing to trust her after that.

Normally I'd agree with you that that looks fishy, but I don't think that's Sally's style of playing. I'd be surprised if this is all a giant Sally-trick.

[satansaloser2005]

Mmn– except that you list nine villagers at #194, made before your reveal. I can't be the only one to have noticed that.

That post was my reveal, Nerwen.

I think our best option four toDay is, well, the obvious.

Massive reveals, everyone? If so, I'd be happy to start (or rather, finish).

There's no coming back after something that obvious, and it wouldn't have been right to delete or mass-edit my post even if I had realized the full extent of my mistake right off.

I realized my numbers were wrong after I hit submit (which actually means Galadriel's summation is inaccurate, but no matter) and replaced the eight with the nine. Of course then I kept accidentally operating under the assumption that there were eight, which doesn't help with the clarity thing.


Essentially I failed at math. I corrected my number, but kept messing up my math for a few posts until finally I realized, "Oh, nine? That made this whole thing really stupid."


Also, my internet exploded for a bit, so this is x'd since my last post. I'll be back later after I (re)do my analysis of Lottie.

[Loslote]

Sally: I believe her claim to be the Hunter. Not much more to say, is there?
Nog: I've been flip-flopping on him all game. Day 1 he seemed very furry, Day 2 I thought he sounded better, but that "Agan is the cobbler" comment of his yesterDay doesn't sit right with me at all.
Kitanna: She seems reasonable from what I've seen. I haven't played with her much before; I can't really get a grip on her innocence or lack thereof.
Galadriel: She seemed reasonable for a while, but her attitude towards Nog and Sally is a bit worrisome. She seems to decide what she thinks of people and refuses to even look at their posts anymore because she doesn't think her mind can be changed. That seems much more like a wolf, who does know whether or not someone is a wolf and thus doesn't have to wonder whether or not they're wrong than an innocent, who has to keep recalculating and questioning their judgement.
Bom: I can't get a read on him at all. :rolleyes:
Shasta: He hasn't posted as much as I would have expected, but I've agreed with most of it, and I can't decide if that makes me nervous about him or more comfortable with him.
Nerwen: Her logic seems sound, but I don't agree with all the conclusions she draws. Really not sure what to make of her.
Greenie: I want to think her innocent, because a lot of what she says seems like it should be innocent, but there's still a nagging feeling in the back of my mind whenever I read her posts...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by me
I think our best option four toDay is, well, the obvious.

Massive reveals, everyone? If so, I'd be happy to start (or rather, finish).
There's no coming back after something that obvious, and it wouldn't have been right to delete or mass-edit my post even if I had realized the full extent of my mistake right off.

Yes, but you hadn't revealed *as* anything... never mind (as Lottie might say :p ). Either you're a cobbler, probably one who thinks Nog is a wolf– or you're exactly what you say you are, and I'm just too tired now to sort out which.

I'm going to have to vote soon, though, as I can't guarantee being back before DL. I will probably vote for Nog, because of the business yesterDay, though I'd have liked to give him a chance to explain his now-infamous "Agan is the cobbler" statement. Still, after re-reading, he's certainly happy enough for people to, apparently, take it as a Seer-hint...

Other possibilities would be Lottie (Day One stuff), my treasure (role in Agan's lynching) or Kit (Pitch-connection), but those all look like long-shots right now.

[Nerwen]

Oh, and Bom. Maybe he's the cobbler too. Maybe everyone is.:rolleyes:

[Nerwen]

Anyway–

++Nogrod

That's the best I can do.

Good luck!

[Kitanna]

I still don't see why a Hunter would think that worth being more-or-less neutralised. (I know Sally already answered me on this point, but her answer really doesn't make much sense.)
This is a possibility, but not necessarily a good plan. The wolves might not want to kill, but wolves like to get rid of known innocents because that's one more person not getting lynched instead of them.

So you don't have faith that sally has a wolf on the edge of her, erm... pen?
...
The only problem is that we won't get an organised sally-lynch either. Some will say that it's our only chance, others will call it absurd.
But she might not have a wolf is the problem. She could easily kill one of the six people who aren't wolves. I count the cobbler because even though the role isn't exactly innocent, at this point we need a wolf, not a wolf's village helper.

@Kit: If you think that sally could be the cobbler, which role do you think Nog has? They can't both be cobblers, and Nog just as good as fake-revealed Seer
I said it was something to consider. I saw Nog's "Agan is the cobbler" but like I said with Sally, there are other options to consider. He's certainly likely the cobbler with a statement like that, but an expert wolf like Nog could hide himself in that.

So far there's me and Bom thinking sally has the village's best intentions at heart, and Greenie and Nerwen thinking that she doesn't, and Kit undecided. Is that right?
If Sally is really our hunter, then she's trying to do us favor by offering her gift, but I think her idea is a bad one to follow in case she hasn't picked out a wolf.
I'm mostly undecided because so many scenarios have played out in WW that I don't find it safe or wise to accept things on good faith. I'd rather examine other options and decide based on that.

I removed myself as a lynch target, which increased our chances of getting a wolf toDay, and if we realized partway through the Day that our target was another gifted, the hunter is always preferable to the ranger or seer as a lynch target.
True, but Sally, what if your target ends up being one of said roles?

If we're in doubt about whether someone is wolf or cobbler, that person is not a wise lynch target for toDay.
I think a lot of us are in doubt though.

Exactly what I said. Kit is forgetting that the Ranger is also awake at Night.
You quoted Greenie, not me.

Sally is a bit worrisome. She seems to decide what she thinks of people and refuses to even look at their posts anymore because she doesn't think her mind can be changed. That seems much more like a wolf, who does know whether or not someone is a wolf and thus doesn't have to wonder whether or not they're wrong than an innocent, who has to keep recalculating and questioning their judgement.

You spent your two posts prior to this saying how Sally was innocent and how she'd not use a big trick. So...what do you really think of Sally? Why the sudden change when you were sure she was telling the truth.

X-posted with Nerwen: Maybe you're the cobbler, but I guess you count as everyone. ;)

[Nogrod]

A quick comment...

We (Lommy, Greenie, Legate & myself) are having a Star Wars marathon. The fourth movie just started.

I haven't had time to read toDay's posts yet and will be online only around the last hours - and I don't yet know how we're going to solve the playing problem with Greenie with most probably only one internet connection (but two laptops, anyway). But we'll both take part in this later on.


One thing I thought you might be asking about - and I actually saw someone asking about it altready loading this page... the "Agan is a cobbler affair". If you look at her post just above where I say that, she basically makes a "Legate 180" - and adding that to my earlier suspicions kind of made it and I felt I was sure she was the cobbler - and I just wrote it before reading further. When I then saw someone was interpreting my words in a seerish manner I didn't wish to object to that as I knew we had this "marathon-day" toDay and I was ready to take the bullet during the Night if I was right (thus saving the real seer) - and I was quite positive I was right... or then she would be a wolf which would be even better.

But I clearly was wrong... and reckless to that matter, looking from hindsight.

Anyway. I'll try my best later on (only three movies to go :)).

[Kitanna]

Day 2
G55
Post 1: Pitch is likely innocent. Bom is Bom and that doesn't say much. No conclusion on Nerwen, but knows she can be "deadly sharp". Myself, Shasta, and Greenie are hopefully innocent.
Nog: sometimes made neat points, but at other times he has been plain illogical. I don’t want to condemn him right away because of that, though; he might be an innocent who looks at things differently than I do, or he might be a wolf who left some holes in his persuasion, or a cobbler who is just messing with our heads and taking our attention off the real wolves. Currently I think the last two are more likely.
Lottie has been defensive, but sees she had a reason for it, but isn't sure Lottie's normal behavior. Finds Agan confusing.
Explains her "Night" quote from Day 1 as just lamenting her luck, which was what was generally considered.
Post 2: How could you be suspicious or not suspicious about someone who isn’t there? This statement had me scratching my head.
Her general uncertainness of Bom continues
Post 4: Argues with Nog about calling his posts illogical. He didn't acknowledge that she wasn't including all his arguments in that statement, just some (her post 2 of the day has the "illogical quote in it). She highlights a few arguments she's talking about. I won't quote them here because it'll be a long annoying quote for everyone to read. Here's her post (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=664698&postcount=168). In short she says she makes confusing posts too and that wouldn't be why she votes Nog.
But as I read, you make a defense about yourself in general... A very good one, if not too good. It makes me feel uneasy...
Voting either Agan or Nog. They are attracting way to much attention for my peace of mind. I haven't commented on Agan since most of her posts have been chewed already by others in my absence.
Post 5: Pitch is still innocent. Agan and Nog have attracted too much attention. Now is this attention from her? Or attention in general? Attracting attention doesn't seem like a good reason to suspect someone, considering innocents (Agan is exhibit A) attract attention and get lynched more often than wolves in these games. Back to her list...
She can't decide on Greenie. Bom, Sally, and Nerwen are hiding. She wants to see more Nerwen than the other two. Lottie seems innocent, but is too "sweet-tongued" for her taste. Shasta isn't unreasonable and no opinion of me.
Post 6: Votes Nog. She found his posts illogical, but I want clarification on her "attracts too much attention" posts from earlier.

Today: The main thing I want to touch on now is the fact she has completely written off Nog as the cobbler. She does say he could be a wolf, but seems to dismiss this for the belief he's the cobbler. Based on her own belief that he is thus, she questioned me why I said Sally could be the cobbler and not him.

Nerwen:
Post 1: Highlights that she thinks Lottie was suspected more for backing off than for suspecting Bom.
Post 2: Says there's no such thing as a no-trace kill, but there's always questions about why so-and-so, but not blahty-blah.

And that's all she wrote. Nice for me when I'm commenting on what everyone said, but bad because I barely had an opinion of her Day 1 and this gives me nothing. We'll see what happens today. I haven't noticed anything that really stands out yet.

Loslote:
Post 1: She still isn't happy about Nog's reasonings, but isn't so ready to lynch him yet.
I also feel like a Nog-Agan wolf team would be completely out of the question, which makes me feel a bit better about Agan. A Nog-Greenie pack, on the other hand, would almost make sense given the dynamic they ended up with yesterDay...but that's just speculation. YesterDay really doesn't offer anything more solid than that.
Why did she suspect a Greenie-Nog team based on the day before? They were at each other's throats, which is a pretty risking wolf-on-wolf tactic on Day 1.
She says Kath accused just about everyone. Wolves could be hiding in Kath's list or hiding on those not listed, which only Sally made it onto.
post 2: I am feeling much better about Greenie after toDay's posting, and even Nog's posts are feeling more like a frustrated innocent than a wolf...and I feel good about Shasta and Pitchie, too. Basically...who's up for an Agan lynch?
She had felt better about Agan originally and now she's changed her mind. She had said she wouldn't be around much, but if she's around today, I'd like to see why she stopped suspecting Greenie and Nog and decided on Agan?
Post 3: I've started to reconsider my suspicion of Nog because of his posting toDay, I've reopened the question of Agan's guilt) and for her not exactly helpful arguementativeness throughout the game.
I still want specifics on this.

Today she's said three things. Two of which were "I trust Sally" or "This isn't a Sally-trick". Then she says she thinks Sally is a wolf masquerading.

I'm just going in order of who posted first, second, etc. But I need a break, so next it'll be Bom, Sally, Nog, and Greenie for sure. And eventually Shasta, Agan, and Pitch.

[Boromir88]

A quick comment...

We (Lommy, Greenie, Legate & myself) are having a Star Wars marathon. The fourth movie just started.

Bah hum bug. Jealousy. For the past month I've been desperately desiring a SW marathon (that includes 1 thru 3, eventhough I don't really care for 1 or 2). Problem is, I still don't have 4 thru 6 on DVD to complete the marathon :(.

Ah well, have fun. :D

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, obviously I was wrong about Agan and am back to square one. I do have to wonder if Sally is a wolf claiming to be the hunter because she believes the real hunter won't come forward and waste his/her role like that... but I'm leaning toward Sally being an innocent frustrated at her own mistake.

[Kitanna]

Bom:
Post 1 & 2: Not much. He did say he was going to post a Zil analysis but it was a mess, his always are. I'm confused as to what that means.

And then he didn't vote. The only thing from today is that he "revealed" as an ordo, but who wouldn't say that? He does support Sally's plan of everyone revealing and I don't like that he agreed so quick with only "it can be a mess when people reveal" as a point against it.

Sally:
Post 3: Her first real substance.
Agan is a cobbler; thus sayeth Nog. But Nog is acting strangely as far as I can see it, so while I'm inclined to believe him, I'm not inclined to trust his motives. Bom is clearly insane and, as always, a self-confessed cobbler. This time I'm not reacting to it, at least at this stage in the game. The interaction between Pitch and Agan is interesting to me, so I'm thinking I'd vote for one of them, but that would be agreeing with Nog, another person I suspect, so I'm not entirely sure what to do.
Post 4: Asks Agan to convince her of innocence.
Post 6: Votes Nog.

Today she's revealed herself as the hunter. I don't think she's a wolf, but I haven't decided if she's the cobbler or the hunter.

Nog:
I have other things to do, so in the case of vocal players I'm going to summarize on the whole instead of post by post.

PS. anyone willing to criticize others for not making strong enough arguments should produce at least one themselves before going critical...
Now that actually makes me interested, not that I'm too happy to discuss me as we have other things to do and talking about someone also heightens the chance of that person being lynched, but just out of curiosity: could you please show me some illogicality as I do doubt having been illogical.
Other than that, I still suspect Greenie the most.

Originally Posted by Grendel
He criticized me for sticking to my suspicion of him based on his grasping at straws with Lottie even after he explained it, but the thing is, the explanation didn't convince me so here we are.
That is the easy way out. Give some reasons so I can try to tell you why you're wrong.
Just saying: "blah-blah, say what you want, I just am not convinced" is not the most fruitful approach to a game of Werewolf. Especially if the other person has explained why the reasons the other one claims to suspect him are false.

Btw. Agan is the cobbler.
But I'd feel better voting Agan than Greenie. I still suspect Greenie and I think I have good reasons for it. It's just that I started wawering with my thoughts reading her posting late toDay... although her vote pick still screams to me she was just sweet-talking only to vote from wolvish grounds.
And he votes Agan.

So what I don't like about Nogrod is how he seems to insisting how people play the game, and that's to his model for WW. I found it irksome and at times rude and I agree with Pitch when he told him to get off his high horse. I bolded a few lines that give me extra cause for concern.

Nog is very good at playing the village and leading everyone into the wrong direction. He'd be a perfect cobbler, but for these reasons I feel he could be a wolf playing on the cobbler role. He stated he won't be around much today, so it's hard to say what he'll do from here...

[Galadriel55]

Mmn– except that you list nine villagers at #194, made before your reveal. I can't be the only one to have noticed that.

But if you look at her list, she writes 2 ordos, not 3. You say you caught her in a lie, but I say it's only a mistake. You "feel" like you're a wolf that desperately wants to get rid of a dangerous gifted, and pulling at every word in her posts to try and find arguments for that.

Sally, you're not stupid. You've just made a mistake - a bad one, no question, but just a human mistake. I know what you mean, and I think you know what I mean too.

True, but Sally, what if your target ends up being one of said roles?

It won't. She's a logical hunter.

You quoted Greenie, not me.

My bad. I was rushed, and I was arguing with both of you.

Today: The main thing I want to touch on now is the fact she has completely written off Nog as the cobbler. She does say he could be a wolf, but seems to dismiss this for the belief he's the cobbler. Based on her own belief that he is thus, she questioned me why I said Sally could be the cobbler and not him.

First of all, I explained my reasoning already in one of my first posts toDay, where I said that he could either be wolf, ordo, or cobbler, the third being the only likely option. Secondly, I didn't question you why you think sally is the cobbler. I asked you what do you think nog's role is if you say sally is the cobbler.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Regarding whether or not the seer, in particular, reveals today - keep in mind it's possible the seer has two living dreams under his/her belt. That should probably be a factor in whether or not you reveal.

In other news, I may be slightly hypocritical in saying this but I'm becoming more and more suspicious of those who are just kind of standing back and watching - this situation has all the hallmarks of wolves who are just sitting back and watching the village self destruct with a push here and a push there. So I'm feeling good about G55 and Sally and slightly good about she for whom the moon shines. I would definitely consider a Bom lynch today.

[Loslote]

You spent your two posts prior to this saying how Sally was innocent and how she'd not use a big trick. So...what do you really think of Sally? Why the sudden change when you were sure she was telling the truth.

If you look at the post, that isn't what I said at all. What I said about Sally was:

Sally: I believe her claim to be the Hunter. Not much more to say, is there?

And what I said about G55 was:

Galadriel: She seemed reasonable for a while, but her attitude towards Nog and Sally is a bit worrisome. She seems to decide what she thinks of people and refuses to even look at their posts anymore because she doesn't think her mind can be changed. That seems much more like a wolf, who does know whether or not someone is a wolf and thus doesn't have to wonder whether or not they're wrong than an innocent, who has to keep recalculating and questioning their judgement.


That comment about being worrisome was directed towards G55, not Sally.

[Loslote]

Why did she suspect a Greenie-Nog team based on the day before? They were at each other's throats, which is a pretty risking wolf-on-wolf tactic on Day 1.

Maybe it is risky, but I've done it before. Recently, actually. And it seemed like they'd set themselves up perfectly for wolf-on-wolf.

She had felt better about Agan originally and now she's changed her mind. She had said she wouldn't be around much, but if she's around today, I'd like to see why she stopped suspecting Greenie and Nog and decided on Agan?

I'd had the three set up in my mind as...almost counter-balances. If Nog was guilty, then Greenie probably was, too, and Agan almost certainly wasn't - and vice versa. Originally, I'd seen Nog and Greenie as the more suspicious pair, but in Day 2, they both seemed to be posting more innocently and Agan seemed to be posting more suspiciously. In my mind, it seemed as though the scale had tipped, and Agan was the more likely to be a wolf. She wasn't, as it happens, but that was what I was thinking when I voted.

Today she's said three things. Two of which were "I trust Sally" or "This isn't a Sally-trick". Then she says she thinks Sally is a wolf masquerading.

As I said earlier, no. Just no. That's entirely false.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

++Bom

With two hours to go and not a lot being said, I'm throwing down my vote for Bom. He fits the profile of "sit back and watch" wolf, and I feel like he'd be new enough to wolvery that he'd be more likely to play it too cautious and say nothing rather than be too loud and potentially slip.