TIG XCIV– WHere the Stars Are Strange (Game thread)

[Nogrod]

Have it your own way, Legate. Can you actually give a valid reason not to believe Eönwë, at least for now? Yes, it's possible he could be a bluffing Spy. Is it likely? No. He'd have no chance of surviving toMorrow. Why would the Spies make a sacrifice like that if they don't have to?
He doesn't need to survive toMorrow as they have the advantage in numbers... look back at my tally.

If you lynch me toDay (and Night-kills happen), it is 10 people toMorrow. With the aid of the Acolyte (looking at the way you post Zil I'm pretty sure you are it, and you align yourself to evil, that looks like granted now, if not earlier) that means 5-5.

So even if there is a double lynch toMorrow (the goodie candidate vs. the baddie candidate - which requires all the goodies to hold together!) it will end up with 5-5 votes. And then the baddies devour the rest as the number of them is equal.

Or even if the Acolyte is not counted there and then, it's easy to see how they will force the win with ease the next Night - fex. by openly revealing themselves to each other during the Day so as not to make mistakes.

[Nogrod]

We should not have that much to lose, after all. The only question is then whether to trust and try (i.e. lynch Nog) or do something else.

But I can sleep on that first.I hope you read my latest post or count the scenarios yourself before voting... We have all to lose. Everything, if this bluff goes through.

Goddammit, it's too late (5PM)... A vacation and evil forces trying to make it their win in a ww-game are just a combination I find it hard to sleep on. :(


You killed Eruhen. How about that for starters?
Isn't that a bit strong words?I don't see Zil denying it.

[Inziladun]

You're taking an awful lot for granted, Nog.

1. That I'm the Acolyte.
2. That the Acolyte is evil, or will choose to become so.

You have no proof of either of those things.

How do you know the score on the Acolyte? We have hints in the narration, but nothing further. Your reaction to Eönwë's reveal is telling.

If you're killed and not evil, then the village gets Eönwë, a Spy. Then they can kill me, if they wish.

[Boromir88]

Boro - of course it's not remotely like a seer lynch, and the outcome of lynching Bom wasn't any worse than any D1 where we don't catch a wolf. But after Lommy, Legate and Nog had gone to some length exhorting us all to make meaningful and accountable votes, I find it, shall we say ironic or hypocritical?, that all three of them ended up making a vote of which Legate said himself that it wouldn't tell us anything. (I'm willing to excuse Lommy, as she was under threat of lynch herself and voting to save herself, but Legate and Nog not so much.)

That explanation looks fine to me. I didn't like the scolding/shame on all of you tone, but I see your point on the hypocrisy of voting Bom based on the no random-votes business.


Boro - likewise. There is still some of his "smoothness" in him, for example like this:

That sounds sort of, how to say it, well, still too "polished" for Boro. More in the "excuse me, gentlemen, my humblest opinion is that your coat might have a bit of stain on it" style instead of "you filthy brat of Morgoth, look how messy you are!"


I'm so not following the distinctions you're making "nicer"-me and "abrasive"-me. I could see it yesterday, because I was too lazy to argue with anyone. I mean, I like being blunt and not afraid to call bull-pucky on anyone, but I'd also like to hope I'm not that much of a pompous douche. If I am, seriously guys, just backhand me or stuff a dirty sock down my throat. It's nothing you need to explain now, I'm just baffled where this idea I'm Mr. Grumpypants is coming from.

The above quote from Legate, was a reaction to me saying:

Wait a second, isn't making stronger suspicions/accusations a good thing? If nothing else it will hopefully get Nog to answer some things about his vote and late-posting yesterday. I've had the impression Nog's playing carefully so far (not sure if I'd call it sneaky, but sneaky/careful are virtually the same in meaning).

Not seeing what's "polished" about this...my explanation I'd call Nog playing "carefully", but not "sneaky"? I had noted Nog's play yesterday was careful, but I can see reasons an innocent Nog would play carefully. Eonwe used sneaky, and to me they mean essentially the same thing. But sneaky carries more negative baggage, and I was agreeing by using sneaky Eonwe was laying on serious suspicion.

Or do you mean polished in my reaction to you and Greenie going after Eonwe for his rather sudden and serious Nogrod suspicion? How harsh do I really have to be there? I'm not going to shout "what in the Morgoth are you two doing!!?" I was trying to get everyone, before taking sides to just let it play out. That is, Eonwe had made a strongly-worded case against Nog, I saw reasoning behind some of his points, and wanted to see how Nog responded. If and when he responded, I then wanted to see what Eonwe would do. Really, do I have to be anal just to say "Wait a second, let's see how this plays out."

From what I've seen out of it, blah...I'm even more conflicted about Nogrod now. There are the parts where he's defending himself and the reasoning/explanation is sound, and I can get genuine frustration at having to repeat his explanation. Like here, when he's actually defending himself, it's good:

Yes, I was mad at Bom's self-vote, especially after all the rant there had been about the signifigance of making a reasoned vote.

Yes, I entertained the idea and was unsure about what to do; whether to stick with the principle (those who do not play should be lynched so that people would know it happens and thus would not do it, or stayed out of games they have no intention to play) or whether there was chances to hit a wolf.

Yes, I did more or less talk myself out of it even if I wasn't sure on how strong grounds the suspicions I had on some people were.

Yes, after Shasta started pressing with it - and it kind of opened out as a real possibility when some others also voiced their possible interest in doing it - I started rethinking it as a real option. I mean it's stupid to vote for a non-player if you're the only one to do that.

But then you forget what I aready told earlier - and you can check it if you wish.

I wished to have a discussion as to whom to vote, in the end there, like 15 minutes before the DL, got a phone-call from my colleague, and when it was done, like 10 minutes to the DL, people had already started voting for Bom and there was no reasonable scenario left but to join (no ties and thus double lynches). Picking up enough votes to lynch someone else at that moment was basically impossible.

I'm sensing the honesty in his explanation about his vote yesterday, as well as the frustration from having to repeat it several times today. But the parts where he's not defending his actions, are shouting out wolf...they look bad. Post 199 looks real bad:

G55 starts the Day with a full-frontal attack on me, which attack I find manufactured to say it nicely.

Eönwë enters the scene later with a full-frontal attack on me, which attack I have hard times calling even manufactured.

Now a bit more impatient soul might think you guys have decided last Night to go after me toDay and get me lynched, maybe making a deal on the issues each one would write as their own "cases" during the Night.

So, Eonwe and G55 start out with cases against you, really the "impatient soul" paragraph is unecessary. I mean you must be calling yourself an "impatient soul," because you yourself are considering some convoluted wolf-night-scheme to come after you today. Oh right, only an impatient soul would consider that option...that very option that you just threw out as an option, but you of course don't think is a viable scenario. Then next paragraph, somehow is just a further explanation of how it's just oh so tempting to believe both Eonwe and G55 night-plotted against you:

But there are four wolves and I must say I'm totally confused if your mates wouldn't then have told you two to act a bit more wisely as that looks just terrible. So I'm tempted to look at these two as two separate bursts coming from their own motivations, even if I must say the temptation to look them as a wolf-duo trying their best (which isn't a lot, sorry) is compelling.

So this very scenario of a wolf-duo between G55 and Eonwe, which you seem to be saying is unlikely (?) you just spent two paragraphs saying "I don't think this is likely, only an impatient soul would think that's the case, but it's such a tempting option...yes...oh it's tempting to believe...I'm trying to resist believing it...but it's tempting." Now tell me that does NOT look like an "I don't care if either of these two are lynched as long as it's not me?" post.

I can see G55 making the attack half as a self-defence, but it is still quite over the top (and could be either). Steve I have harder time of figuring out why, unless it was decided already earlier that should be done. I mean unless that was not pre-planned, then I must have hit a point somewhere and hit it too well.

Oh right the concluding paragraph again, bringing up that oh so tempting "G55-Eonwe wolf-duo pre-planned go after Nogrod"

Then in the next defensive post (212) where he gave the explanation to his actions. In response to me, there are parts that follow this pattern of looking out right "let me throw out junk accusations to see if any of them will stick:

But then you Boro seem to fall into the fallacy of hindsight or that of wolvery (both meaning "knowing things"). You can choose which one...

Choose which one? I suppose by that if I choose the G55 and Eonwe in a "full-frontal assault" against Nog than you'll be giving me the same treatment as them? :rolleyes: Some elaborate, must be a pre-planned wolf plot scheme, that you don't want to believe is a reasonable option, but you'll argue that it is reasonable and tempting?

I mean you who complain about Bom's lynch seem to forget that he could have been a wolf. Or you knew already he wasn't and then as wolves rant on us others who didn't know from supposed "moral-highground". *coughPitchieCough*

This is perhaps the worst of them all. At that point in the post, I thought to myself "wow, you're going to throw the kitchen sink too, Nog?"

Oh my. I'm not sure if this is enough for me to want to cast a vote for Nog, because his defense behind his actions yesterday look good. And I do recall an innocent Nog being just as "paranoid/everyone is conspiring against me," but really these half-hearted accusations against anyone saying something against him looks bad. It just looks like "I'm going to sling every kind of mud I have up my sleeve at anyone stating suspicion against me and see which mud sticks."

Edit: crossed with everyone since Pom's vote for Legate...woah...looks like something major happened.

Edit 2: and seer revelation...that would explain it.

[Galadriel55]

OK, my next bit of posts...

I realize I think quite differently than most, and, as I said, I know Bom has done some frustrating things, but is voting for one's self on Day 1 really something a wolf would be likely to do? I can see some legitimately feeling like there was no better option, and voting for him, but there's got to be baddies on that wagon.

Most certainly there's at least one there - probably more.


Legate @ 194: I think you're critisizing Eonwe too harshly. I really don't see why you think his Nogalysis looks so bad. I didn't find it particularly evil-looking or suspicious. It was alright.

Galadriel55 - my top suspect at the moment. It's not only her weird jump on me yesterDay or on Nog toDay, but mostly two details which scream wolf (which you all should know if you've read my posts but let me repeat). 1. When she looks back, she refers to whether she said she suspected someone, not whether she suspected them in her head. I can see no reason an innocent would play with this mindset. 2. She was confident enough that she'd be alive toDay that she spent a considerable amount of time last Night writing a post. A rhetorical question: who again are they who generally don't die during the Night?

1. In a game of WW, thoughts that are left unspoken are of very little value. You can't prove thoughts. You can only prove words. Thinking about something can get you to something, but not the game as a whole. Speaking aloud does.

2. As I said before (though still after this post) - I do not have time today to look for so many quotes, so it was a risk it or hold your peace situation, and I'm not gonna hold my peace if I think something looks suspicious. Moreover, with all the suspicion comming my way yesterDay after I went to bed, it would be a waste of scapegoat/wagon/whateveryouwannacallit for the wolves to kill me at Night. They usually go for those who are generally considered innocent and would not be lynched, unless they are aiming at a person for a reason greater than to make a kill that won't endanger them (eg: suspected of Seering).

No. I was not proposing to lynch Bom because he is Bom. That would be stupid. I was suggesting it because of how he played, especially the self-vote.

Errr... that is lynching Bom because he's Bom - you can put all the words that describe him - crazy, random, etc - into one: Bom. That's just him. If you're lynching him for his playing style, you're lynching him for being him.

But then you Boro seem to fall into the fallacy of hindsight or that of wolvery (both meaning "knowing things"). You can choose which one...

You lost me somewhere here.... how so?

And well, you only have my word for it, but I didn't change my mind on you because that idea got support. But think of this: if my modus operandi (my working rule) would have been trying to get you lynched in principle, or going with the flow and suspecting only those who others suspect, surely I wouldn't have defended you in the first place?

When you defended me it was Boro against the general mood that was "she's probably innocent" - one against a few.

But... I'll take your word for now, and "moving" you from red to orange categories.

So you confess?

Yes, I confess of my innocence. :p

Okay. A bad joke, and it's probably a misunderstanding there. I tried to say that if you were a wolf, your packmates would have told you not to do something as over the board as your rant you posted early into the Day, because it would only make you look more suspicious. But as you did post it... well maybe you don't have packmates to guide you?

OK, because to me it sounded more like an overconfident statement saying that I do have mates who for some reason didn't instruct me properly. It's clear now.

[Loslote]

Excuse me, but I've played in like twenty to forty or maybe even more WW games and as far as I recall, upon revealing, the Seer most often revealed ALL his dreams.

But...but in this case, that would be stupid. Sorry, but it would. Assuming Steve gives us the name of Nogwolf toDay, the Ranger protects him toNight. Then he gives us the names of his other two dreams toMorrow. Assuming Steve tells all toDay, the Ranger has to choose which to protect, Steve or the ordo, and may get it wrong and cost us a known innocent a Night early.

Also, I trust the reveal enough to go ahead with a Nog-lynch, so:

++Nog

[Nogrod]

I'll make it once more so that you see where we are... (and then I need to go to sleep vacation or not)

We are 13 people now.

13

4 wolves
1 acolyte (who kills at Night, seemingly allied to the baddies, killed Eruhen)
8 innocents (including a ranger and a seer)

If you lynch me and the wolves kill someone, and the Acolyte continues the bloody path correctly to his evil aims, the tally toMorrow will be:

10 people on Day3

10

4 wolves
1 Acolyte (Zil)
5 innocents

If the baddies then reveal themselves to each other, it's game over as they can organize a 5-5 vote leading it as 4-4 into the Night and game over - or if evenone innocetn votes wrong they will jump on it and end it already toMorrow.


~*~

And even if a minor detail goes wrong they can afford it.

And on the other thought, it is possible that after G55's, Boro's and Eönwë's pre-decided effort seemed to fail (I have not seen the guys to answer my question about their accusations), Eönwë felt too much pressure (for a good reason as I think most everyone - other than the wolves - were thinking he was making himself more suspicious than me with his "case"), so he decided to go for a fake reveal without the counsel of the others...

But whichever way it is as to why Eönwë made his fake reveal, they have chances to win easily if you lynch me toDay.


And the real seer should really think about this closely.

We can't afford to lose an innocent in principle, but there sure are some chances (the Acolyte might not have a kill every Night, the ranger might save someone etc.). If we lynch Eönwë toDay, we're one wolf down, and you get one more dream (I'd suggest Boro or G55) while the ranger protects you. Then we'd have a second wolf, most likely. But you can of course come forwards and reveal the falsity of Eönwë - especially if you have other good news to bring.

But up to you. Certainly. If you think you're safe and my death will help us, go that way and win it for us.


EDIT: X'd with a lots... but it turned out just a few long ones.

[Inziladun]

I'm about to go to bed, and won't be back before DL, but just a quick note.

I already was suspicious of Legate, for a combination of his actions yesterDay and toDay. In addition, I think his and Nog's reactions to Eönwë are a clear indicator of guilt.

Come on. Can anyone give an innocent reason why a SeerSteve should reveal his dreamt ordo now? When he can easily survive the Night with a Ranger-protect?
Negative. That looks really bad on Legate.

Now Nog is fixated on me being the Acolyte. If I was, I doubt I could tell you. He's just trying to shift the focus from himself.

Choose well, Servants of the South.

[Nogrod]

We can't afford to lose an innocent in principle, but there sure are some chances (the Acolyte might not have a kill every Night, the ranger might save someone etc.). If we lynch Eönwë toDay, we're one wolf down, and you get one more dream (I'd suggest Boro or G55) while the ranger protects you. Then we'd have a second wolf, most likely. But you can of course come forwards and reveal the falsity of Eönwë - especially if you have other good news to bring.I see I'm getting too tired as my logic makes this kind of errors - arguing the same case as two alternatives...

So what I meant was, come forwards if you think it the best way of action (read my numbers closely) or stay hidden if you think that is the better route.

Eönwë's reveal is known to be false toMorrow anyway whether you guys lynch me or him. So after that there should be no problems on that issue.

Time might be scarce, though, if you pick it wrong.


++ Eönwë


Good Night and Good Luck (will be back, but see no reason to not make my vote now)

[Nogrod]

Now Nog is fixated on me being the Acolyte. If I was, I doubt I could tell you. He's just trying to shift the focus from himself.Nope. I'm not trying to shift the focus.

I see the focus is too much on me and I need to try and save the village on my own with a talking company construed of wolves and an Acolyte who kills us.

But my first concern is getting the false seer revealed as what he is.

That doesn't mean I think you should be forgotten. Like you say, it looks like you are told not to reveal... but looking at the attitude and the way you skipped some questions to you it's fairly certain you're the Acolyte.

And you kill people.


If you guys lynch me, remember this. Zil kills people.

Now good night... back (hopefully) before the DL.

[Inziladun]

Last word:

For anyone who believes Eönwë is lying, I encourage you to vote for me over him.

That is all.

[Nogrod]

Last word:

For anyone who believes Eönwë is lying, I encourage you to vote for me over him.

That is all.I saw that!

(I was just going to shut my computer down)

So you are the acolyte.

And your hands are tied. And you don't like it. I don't blame you for that.


But how this comes as no surprise...


Okay.

If it is your task to kill people, and you want to get rid of that, let's do it then (sadly I used my vote already).

After that it is just the goodies vs. the baddies with no random factor meddling with it, and the seer has an added chance. (Even if the worst scenario happens we lead by two toMorrow)

[Galadriel55]

Nogrod is a wolf, a northern spy, a vile plotter, etc.

++NOG

I'm actually really surprised at myself for going after someone that's actually evil this time, because in past games my suspects were usually ordos and gifteds, regardless of my own role. :rolleyes:

Am I making progress? :Merisu:

That said!!! Just occured to me. Steve, if you ARE real Seer, you SHOULD tell us the name of your Ordo. Because either you get night-killed or the ordo does, but the Ranger can protect you first Night, and the Ordo after that. So you SHOULD tell us.

But the wolves won't go for a target that's obviously protected - and the Ranger would be mad mad MAD not to protect the Seer. They will just move around the Ranger.

And that by the way further fortifies my belief in Eönwë's fakeness. Really.

I am not convinced in any way that Nogrod is innocent, but I am rather convinced, now thinking about it more and more, that Eönwë is just fake. A rather not very well done Wolfy Seer-revelation-attempt, since he does not know whom he should reveal as ordo, because he does not know whether to name a packmate or not...

Hmm. It is of course still possible he is not lying. But I really don't like it.

Also it is interesting for him to suddenly have me on top of his suspect list right after I got a vote, while I don't believe he had suspected me so much before.

This looks rather sinister. So you say that "no, Steve lies, you shouldn't believe him!", but in the same post you back up and say that just maybe he's right... cause what if he is, and then you'll be suspected of trying to save your packmate. Sure, you justify it - veeery feebly. This by itself would give me reason to believe Eonwe's right is suspecting you.

You killed Eruhen. How about that for starters?

And you know that how? (By "that" I mean that it was Zil)

I don't see Zil denying it.

If everyone denied every accusation thrown at them the only thing we'd hear is "you're wrong, I'm innocent!"



Nog's last post: And HOW DO YOU KNOW? If Inzil would rather him!ordo be lynched than Eonwe!Seer, well, that's a noble sacrifice. But since you've painted Eonwe evil, you'd have to paint Inzil evil too. It just doesn't make sense. No. Your whole scenario, that is. I have no regrets or second thoughts about voting you.

[Galadriel55]

Guys, I know I haven't said a great deal toDay... but please be forgiving. It's tomorrow here already, and I have school tomo...today, and you post faster than I can read. The most I can add to the Day's discussion is a brief list.

Lottie, Shasta, Sally: Undecided.

Nog is a wolf.

Legate is mighty suspicious. See my post above.

Greenie sounds genuine.

Lommy and Pitchie are questionmarks, juuuuuust leaning to the innocent side.

Boro is dangerous, in the sense that while he sounds OK I've seen him pull off the craziest wolf victory with lots of trust (though paranioa towards the end ;)) and the biggest wolf-on-wolf I've seen in my time. And that game I thought he was squeaky clean, until I found out otherwise. No, he's just too dangerous to trust. While I'm not actually suspecting him, I'm wary of him... makes sense?

Pom is probably the best-sounding at the moment.

Zil sounds innocent, still.

Steve is Seer.





Get that wolf, village! ^^

[satansaloser2005]

It's likely I'll be voting long before DL as a rule here. It falls into my exercise time.

Yeah, sure, your “beat pillow with fist” exercise time. :smokin:

Okay, to business (though we all know I must get my one-liners in).


Cooperation, yes, that's another possibility. Does not sound bad. Could be also that the Acolyte could be getting some "partial info" from the Seer or whatnot... and based on that could also choose sides... (For example: Night 1: Seer dreams of Freddy and sees him innocent, the Acolyte gets info "Seer dreamed of Freddy" or "Seer dreamed of innocent"... okay, that sounds stretched, I'm making up stuff from the top of my head, but you know, something... random...)

Quite possible, I’d say. Were I to compare it to another role, I would liken it to the dream catcher I had for my first game. Given last Night’s events, however, it is unlikely that’s the case.


On the other hand, the 'cursed' idea could also work, where if there's an attempt to Night-kill or dream the acolyte, they become that role. Or even if they're the target of the other gifteds.

The idea could also work? This phrasing strikes me as odd. This was one of the things he said that bothered me yesterDay, but when I got home and tried to find it again, I couldn’t. :/


What we can do is focus on finding the ones we know can kill us. The rest will just have to work itself out.

THANK YOU.


I could not have done the foul deed. If I was the murderer, that would have meant that I foresaw my role in choosing the occupation, which would imply that I'm a Seer. I can't be both spy/wolf and seer at the same time!

Just making a note of this for now, in case it becomes relevant later. (Acolyte, etc.)


On the other hand, there's clearly a possibility that the Acolyte may turn, or be turned, to the dark side and use their powers, whichever they may be, against us - which is why I don't quite get Lommy's doubts whether "it's wise to discuss the details". I mean, why shouldn't we discuss what we may be up against? OK, it's all speculation at this point, but what's the harm in speculation? It's not like anybody is going to say "I think Finnegan's the Envoy and Freddy is the Acolyte".

Actually, I’d say that’s a distinct possibility. “I can’t figure out why X is acting this way. Oh! X is probably the acolyte, and they’re doing Y because their role entails Z.” You can see where wolves can easily benefit from this sort of discussion, right? (In the post following this one, Galadriel expresses a similar sentiment.)


It seems to me that with the relatively high number of wolves in this village, the acolyte is more likely helpful than harmful.

I certainly would hope so.


Ok, what I don't like is how Inzil managed to change the discussion about the Acolyte into meta-discussion. While the former discussion lets people think about the game ahead and shows people's attitudes now, as well as maybe being interesting to look at in future, this discussion about whether we should discuss it is bad because it's giving everyone a place to hide. Legate replied first, but now everyone's repeating the same thing (which I thought had been general consensus for ages anyway- it was when I last played) about any discussion being better than no discussion.

I'm not saying that Inzil or Legate are bad, but people are too keen to bandwaggon onto that discussion and say nothing of value, while looking active and helpful.

I’m not saying he’s bad, but he’s bad. Wait, what?


Yes you can - if you're a turned acolyte. Maybe.

Also filing this one away for later. Interesting that he responded to this.


The birthday dreamer I remember just got a dream on a predetermined Night, without any role change involved (right, Lottie?). Otherwise, this is basically the same as Boro's mythomaniac, which looks like a coherent theory to me.

Serious question. Why did you specifically ask Lottie? It seems I’ve forgotten something.


This post has made me very angry. Yes, angry. This way of saying it infuriates me. You could have just said "G55 didn't post anything on content", which would be more or less true. But the way you're saying it is more like "oh look Lottie, you are against people who talk banter and here's G55 posting along whom you haven't analyzed yet. Wanna say that particularily she is useless?"

Yes, I'm saying this despite the risk of flying up on people's suspicion lists. This is what I think of you, and I'm not afraid to say it. Let's all decide that G55 is not posting anything useless, but let that come from someone else's mouth, eh? If you suspect me, say so. If you don't like the way I post, say so. If I'm on the top of your lynch list, say so. Don't ask Lottie to say it for you, or talk to her as though it's a private conversation between you and her!


*deep breath*

/rant.

Well hello.


HERE ENDETH PAGE ONE. GOOD LORD.


I'm well aware of the risk of lynching an innocent who happens to look "odd" on day one. In fact, I'd suggest it may be more logical to leave Inzil alone for toDay precisely because he has made himself a target.

Is this the post that was pointed out later in the thread? If not, hello, hunter hint. How does the hunter’s pick change thing work? I need to check out the rules.


Rikae - looks straightforward, I can follow her line of thoughts, no problem, does not seem to be manipulative in any way etc.

“Does not seem to be manipulative in any way” seems like an odd turn of phrase. I realize that Rikae’s always a bit....well, nuts, but “in any way” seems, to me, to suggest possible other knowledge. Of course Rikae’s not evil, so that actually would speak in his favor, except....wouldn’t a wolf want to align himself with an ordo, find an ally besides his mates?


Your reaction though, it was unexpected seeing from you, because it was like reading one of my rants. "If you suspect me then suspect me!" And really over something that's normal, "Hey Rikae, what do you think about sally?" I can understand boiling over frustrations, but that was an immediate, highly-dramatic reaction.

Concurrence, we have it.


Zil's last post makes him look more innocent than not. He's making sense.

Plus, if he's a wolf, I'd imagine he would have let the Alcolyte speculation run its course instead of jumping into the spotlight himself.

How do you know what he would do as a wolf? Hmmmm....


The thing that caught my attention this far the most was the odd case of Lottie and Zil going against Pitch for saying "in case we manage to lynch our seer early". I mean, come on, that was clearly sarcastic phrasing! I'm not sure which is worse, Lottie pointing it out as a suspicious passage, orZil implying it's a good point. (Unless Zil was sarcastic too? or referring to something else? I'm talking about #26)

A valid point, as I also recognized the sarcasm, but, my dear, we both know how often wolves hide behind sarcasm. I’m not saying that the others didn’t overreact to it, but it was a weird statement for him to make it. Something to file away, but not immediately lynch someone for, I’d say.


He does then raise some more critical points about Gal, like pondering her possible guilt etc, but overall his tone seems to be rather friendly and *uses dictionary* lenient. Indulgent. Benevolent. (Hope you get the point)

I get the point, but I don’t agree with it. I think he’s being normal Boro, just not as on top of things. However, I obviously agreed with you about Bom, so we’ll call it even, yes? :)


I would not want to see Zil lynched, as I said before. Can't see an Inzilawolf putting his neck in line like that.

If she hadn’t made her previous statement about how she thought an Inzilawolf would act, I wouldn’t have thought much of this, but the fact that she’s said such things twice worries me.


G55 is impossible to read, but she seems innocent enough so far.

She’s impossible to read, but you’ve got a read on her? Another Steveism I don’t like.


Well. Didn't look genuine to me. And perhaps I shouldn't look at it through my eyes, but I've done the same thing time and time again when I've been a wolf. Get too dramatic over the slightest of things. Not that G55 was faking being angry, but playing up being angry to hopefully get suspicion off her. As if her honor had been impugned. I've literally done the same thing, indignicantly objecting to people beating around the bush..."If you suspect me then suspect me!" stuff.

I find this to be an extremely valid point.


HERE ENDETH PAGE TWO.


People like Bom and Sally are basically expected to post little to nothing of substance on Day One. You and Legate are not. When people do what I'm not used to them doing, I pay attention more than when they do what I am used to them doing.

Ahem.


Again. He is being too nice, if he is all right, I will eat my shoe, seriously. Normal Boro attacks people. This Boro defends people. No. It is incredibly stupid to suspect people based on that they are nice and such, but it was the very same Boro who had told me last time (after the game when I suspected him and then backed off and failed to lynch him) that I should not give up on this lead... so I won't. Nice Boro is most likely a Wolf. Normal Boro tends not to smudge honey all over you.

First of all, saying someone’s suspicions are “incredibly stupid” is not going to make me feel any better about you, sir. More importantly, people’s styles may change from game to game; for instance, Rikae is....no, she’s always insane and shouty in an endearing sort of say, but Nog....no, Nog always rails about lack of participation, though you....actually, you, Legate, can at times be both mirthful and serious. I get judging someone based on their demeanor, but saying that someone else is dumb for not doing the same? Stop it.

Even more importantly, what Boro does with his condiments is between us. :Merisu:


You ever have one of those days where it feels like you can't remember what you've been doing all day? That's been me today...like I swear I've kept up-to-date on all the replies, and by Day 1 standards it appears moderately productive, yet...I haven't the faintest clue what the heck I've been reading. Nothing is sinking in, it's as if I'm reading words but not complete sentences with thoughts and ideas.

Flip yes. Just....goodness, this game is killing me for some reason. This post has taken me hours, simply because I keep needing to swan off for a bit and focus on something else. :/


Though the last point - illogical as it is - points to Lottie's innocence rather than guilt, because, as with Zil, I don't think a wolf would deliberately say such a thing that would put him/her into the light.

Let the record show that this is the third time Galadriel has speculated about Dun’s werewolf style.


Just because something doesn't automatically make him evil, it doesn't mean I have to like what he's doing, does it?

Fair enough, but the entire tone of your post (which starts with, “Do I need to explain myself again?”) is extremely worrisome. Why are you so worked up? Worried, perhaps?


...You're kidding. Who are you and what have you done with Nogrod?! That's so unlike what you'd normally say that I'm almost forced to look for a reason why you'd be protecting G55.

....I think you may be onto something.


Lommy - I was on the same page with her regarding the Lottie/Inzil Case of the Ambiguous Posts until Inzil mentioned that he was talking about something completely different. I thought that was the end of it until Lommy began talking about ways that that made Lottie look bad in a way that almost looked like she was looking for support.

I’d rather agree with this analysis as well, though this game has already had so many miscommunications that it’s getting ridiculous....


If anyone is willing to help Bom with his suicide I'd be happy to lend a hand there.

....I know there’s an angry face at the end of that, but it still feels....well, didn’t he end up voting for Bom? I mean, really. The flip? Alarm. Bells. Ringing.


Just for further reference - I wonder if, in case Lommy is perchance innocent and Boro is perchance Wolf, there might not be attempt to saveBoro by people voting Lommy. But that shall be seen.

Also keeping hold of this for later....


HERE ENDETH PAGE THREE.


I'll comment on the rest momentarily, but I want to get this thought out there as quickly as possible to give everyone time to consider - I would, personally, be not at all averse to lynching Bom. Think about it for a second - why, even beyond Legate's thought (which is currently the prevailing mood, sad as it is to say), I can nearly guarantee that later, down the road, someone will say "man I wish we could lynch Bom, but we can't now, it's too late in the game." Because, as I recall, Bom does this quite a bit, and people say exactly what has been said thus far - that is, chastising him for it but not really doing anything about it. Because the general opinion is either "oh that's just Bom" or "a wolf wouldn't do that, oh well."

So if people want to lynch Bom, I'm all for it. It's about time our threat of "participate or face a lynch" actually had some bite to it.

And look at that. Shasta and I agree again!


Well Shasta, you put us in dire straits as to whether act like we say we should act or hunker down wishing for a better result and ignoring the principle. I'm really torn with it. The chances he's a wolf are what the pure chances are 4/16, but you're right that if we don't do it toDay, we will be cursing it later (supposing he continues the same way) when we don't feel any more we can afford checking him.

This. Does. Not. Sound. Natural.


We don't want a tie and die, do we, precious?

I repeat the above. Not. Natural. Actually, it does, I suppose, but it’s still worrisome. :/


HERE ENDETH PAGE FOUR (AND DAY ONE).


So the alcolyte is some kind of werebear. *sigh* May the victims of the Night's terror rest in peace.

....Maybe? I still don’t know. >.<


What bothers me is Nog’s flipfloppiness (does this run in the family?). In all seriousness, though – he starts out standing his ground against Boro, and keeps this up while the general mood is leaning towards me being innocent (Boro is clearly outnumbered). But then Shasta consistently and persistently sides with Boro, and Lommy joins in saying I’m not that shiny. And only now Nog has second thoughts about my outburst, and decides that it didn’t actually look good, and that my vote wasn’t well-explained either, and all that. And as the support for this keeps up, he repeats it more often.

Though when the village doesn’t actually end up lynching me, he backs off and says that it’s better that Bom is lynched.

This is actually....true-ish. I still don’t trust either of them though.


Yes, Elmer Fudd hunts wabbits, but the Coyote hunts the Roadrunner. Was Rikae trying to bait the wolves into thinking she was the Seer, who had dreamed Boro? But that would have meant she would have hunted Boro, and obviously, he's still with us. I don't know.

I don’t know, but I keep reading acolyte as coyote and vice versa. Perhaps it’s nearing bedtime. >.<


After all Legate's focus on me yesterDay. he went and voted for Bom. So did Eönwë, who had previously said I would be his likely vote, and offered no reason for voting Bom, other than he didn't want to vote Lommy. Why didn't either of them vote for me, instead of going after Bom? Yes, believe me, I know Bom's antics like that can be frustrating. It still looks like a very easy bandwagon, though.

Regardless of whether I trust Dun, he’s got a good point here about Steve.


This looked fishy to me, the need to emphasize her own innocence in a context where it wasn't called for. Some players do that all the time, but I don't think Lommy is one of those so it struck me as odd.

Point.


A Hunter hint? Why on earth would a Hunter leave hints?

For a logical hunter, it makes sense. “Hello, yes, I’m dead now, but I hunted this person, and they’re still alive, so that means they’re not evil. Enjoy the hearty beast.”


...and making a camel out of a midget (Czech proverb - I think in English it's mountain out of a molehill) with this analysis and finishing with saying an innocent wouldn't do that at all.

I bloody love you. Ahem. Anyway, I like this point (or rather the points around it (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667581&postcount=194), the ones about Steve trying to set people up). I still don’t like you though. (You know what I mean.) Just because you’re right about him grasping doesn’t mean you’re not trying to set him up for setting someone up for setting up a shop in Kansas selling chocolate envelopes.

Greenie expresses the same sentiment in the next post, but she’s more....honest about it? I don’t know. It doesn’t feel as unnatural to me, though at this point I’m rather exhausted.


THUS ENDETH PAGE FIVE. SCREW YOU ALL. I’M DONE WITH THIS FOR NOW. (ALSO, I LOVE YOU ALL. NOW PLEASE DIE.)


At this point, let’s examine what Sally thinks....



Guilty:
Galadriel
Dun
Steve
Legate
Nog
Pitch

Probably Innocent:
Boro
Shasta
PomPom

Still Thinking:
Greenie
Lommie
Lottie


Before you ask, yes, I’ve seen Steve’s reveal, and I’ll deal with that in a moment, but I wanted to wrap up this stuff first so I wasn’t entirely colored by that revelation.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Though no one found last Night’s kills funny
And Shasta’s not calling me honey
I still made a post
Of who I like most
And who I think we should send running


I've bolded and everything, and appreciate your patience. Also, I'm about to fall asleep....

[satansaloser2005]

Legate: Chill. Out. For reasons that someone else pointed out, even if Steve is the real seer, it would be unwise for him to reveal his dreams at this time. ToMorrow, sure, but not toDay. It would just get his dreams killed. Get some sleep, love. I know it'll make sense to you in the morning.

Steve: If you're lying, I'm going to end you.

Nog: Die, my pretty! Diiiiiiieeeeeeeee! Etc. Also, go to bed if you haven't already. <3


Considering that Nog is already on my top suspect list, I'm not at all hesitant to vote him. If I'm/we're wrong, I'll deal with it toMorrow (and also tomorrow). For now, however, I'm going with it, because Steve's reveal is in line with my own thoughts (and if he's lying, as previously mentioned, I can kill him, which is equally fun).

++Nog


Or, as they say in Limerick....

It's time for Miss Sally to sleep
So I must choose who not to keep
So let us not worry
If Nogrod is furry
If not, upon Steve we will creep


(Not at all my best, but I'm seriously falling asleep. I wish you all the best, and may we all be alive come morning.)

[Boromir88]

I think it's my sleep time too. Not much more I think needs to be said about this, other than I'm amused by Nog's desperate pleas. Your scenario about the Acolyte being for the wolves is making so many assumptions. Assumptions that you can't possibly know/make, unless you are privy to info no one else is, and appear to be making up any possible cracked conspiracy theory to save yourself.

For anyone coming back to vote, seriously, read Nog's posts from #199 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667586&postcount=199)and on...I keep having the "he's throwing everything including the kitchen sink" feeling.

++Nogrod

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Note - for this game it's likely I'll only be active during the latter half of the Day, as Sally said - the DL is 6 am my time, so yeah.

In any case, I'll comment on the most recent happenings real fast before I go back and do a post-by-post commentary.

Eonwe - Seer
Nog - Wolf
Inzil - Acolyte

Seriously? Guys. Look at the Eruhen kill. It's pretty clear at this point that the Acolyte, if not a traditional werebear, at least has the power to kill by himself (I say him because Nog being a wolf doesn't mean his points about Inzil being the Acolyte aren't valid - I've thought so myself since yesterday, as did Rikae apparently).

Nog is a wolf. Fine. Lynch him tomorrow. Lynching one wolf out of four isn't going to have any short-term effects - if we lynch Inzil (who clearly, at this point, doesn't have the best interests of the village in mind), we drop the number of kills per night to one.

++Inzil

Also, Boro? Your most recent post? Looks exactly like Glirdywolf from the Alice in Wonderland game of Wilwa's - you know, the one where it turned out he really was a wolf who was that eager to bus a packmate. Not really helping your case there, buddy.

[Eönwë]

Ok, well I don't think there's much to be said except
++Nogrod


And yeah, I forgot ask whether people think I should reveal the name of the innocent toMorrow (obviously not toDay, because there'd be nothing to gain from it at this point except for the wolves having someone to kill- tomorrow, another innocent voice might be nice to have, and I thought that was pretty obvious).


Legate looks pretty bad to me, seeming determined to suspect me and calling for me to reveal innocents (Which as I said would be pointless, because now, while they could be killed, if I reveal, they will definitely be killed). Just wanted to put that out there.

And I don't think it's wise to try a double-lynch for the acolyte when we don't even know what the role does yet.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

And I don't think it's wise to try a double-lynch for the acolyte when we don't even know what the role does yet.

We know it kills people. I think that's quite enough.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

However, I didn't even consider a double-lynch idea. That would solve the conundrum quite nicely. Who's left to vote? Can we pull it off?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, I encourage everyone to think about it quite hard. I'm going to bed - I can't keep my eyes open. Given my aberrant schedule, though, I may be back awake again before DL. We'll see.

Good luck in any case!

[Thinlómien]

Ugh. My lecture starts in 50min an I'm still at Nog's so I can't write any novels and I Ion't be back before DL most likely (my lecture ends 15min before it).

So:

I believe Steve, I see no reason for him to lie, although I was concerned about false reveals when I first thought of the acolyte. In the unlikely case he's bluffing, we lynch him toMorrow and either way we get a wolf either toDay or toMorrow.

++Nogrod

Steve being the seer kind of explains his attack on him nicely, and lately monsieur Nog has not been making much sense. Hats off to fooling me very nicely, though, Noggie!

Btw having had the same suspicious of Eönwë, not suspicious of Nog attitude as Legate I can relate with his initial disbelief of the seer reveal, but that he actually sticked to it after a few seconds of thinking is weird. I don't see why a wolf would not side with the seer though, arguing like this looks really foolhardy. Then again Legate was totally weird with his insistence about revealing the dreams etc... Brain hurts.

Also when/if Nog turns out to be a wolf, Boro and Gal will look a lot better. Assuming I'm alive toMorrow means I will need to do a lot of rethinking. Until then!

[Thinlómien]

Okay one more thing I forgot:

Why do so many people think Zil's the acolyte? Did I miss something?

Also, Shasta, I very much doubt the acolyte can kill every Night, it would make this into very unbalanced game.

ToMorrow I will need to think about Shasta's crazy double-lynch plan and what it makes him, but now I don't have the time, I should be leaving in 15min. Bye, folks!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Just a note to all the people who have on the last page been talking about me not trusting Steve and pondering lynching him still the same day: Have you noticed that I have completely changed my mind on that?

When I say I am going to sleep...

...I instead go and check Steve's posts. Okay, reevaluating.

I went through Eönwë's posts of toDay plus his list from the Day before, and it is true he in fact does start speaking about Nog straightaway from the beginning of toDay (where he is merely uncertain the Day before). It would also make sense to dream of Nog if he was unsure of him, it's a good pick: a vocal player, with good record, etc etc, a good pick in general.

Eönwë was going after Nog toDay from the start and very strongly, and we've been all wondering (or at least I was, and some others too, I believe) about why he was using such a strong, confident language. As if he knew. Well, indeed - maybe he knew.

So in fact, after seeing all this, I am for giving Eönwë a shot. I mean, not a shot in the head, but not lynching him, at least. Even protecting him, I suggest to the Ranger.

We should not have that much to lose, after all. The only question is then whether to trust and try (i.e. lynch Nog) or do something else.

But I can sleep on that first.

(Where that case puts Zil is a different thing, but I am not going to rack my brain anymore. This time I am REALLY going to sleep.)

EDIT: x-ed since my last.

Good night.

Otherwise...

Seriously? Guys. Look at the Eruhen kill. It's pretty clear at this point that the Acolyte, if not a traditional werebear, at least has the power to kill by himself (I say him because Nog being a wolf doesn't mean his points about Inzil being the Acolyte aren't valid - I've thought so myself since yesterday, as did Rikae apparently).

Nog is a wolf. Fine. Lynch him tomorrow. Lynching one wolf out of four isn't going to have any short-term effects - if we lynch Inzil (who clearly, at this point, doesn't have the best interests of the village in mind), we drop the number of kills per night to one.
I don't believe the Acolyte, even if the kill was his doing, has the power to do so every Night. That would be just too much of an overkill (literally). This is also a reply to what Nog had said about his counting of our chances, who might or might not be alive toMorrow etc... Never tell me the odds.

Anyway, aside from that, I am beginning to wonder about the fact that Shasta tends to propose some different people from the lynchees offered again. I mean, first Day, okay, and it was reasonable to follow; this could also be reasonable for its own reasons, but it is just really strange to stick to it so vehemently and urge the village to vote somebody else always... it is not the fact itself, it is rather who does it and that he does it repetitively and with such vehemence.

That said, I am now pondering the possibility whether to vote Nog or to vote Zil myself also - the question being whether it isn't really good to keep Nog around if we think he *is* a Wolf and lynch Zil in order to get more info (right now though I am not sure what to think of Zil, his actions in some way make him look better on reevaluation, then again, there is no denying he still acted weirdly in this game). In case we do lynch Zil and in case he is innocent, then I would look at Shasta a bit more than before. Although I believe there are better priorities: if Zil is lynched and innocent, we should lynch Nog primarily still.

BUT on second thought, no, really not - we should preferably try to vote for the same person in order to avoid a multiple lynch (or in the worst case, lynching the Seer along!!!!!!) - so in this light, Shasta's suggestion would really not look very good.

I mean, we don't know how many WWs have voted already, but given that there are FOUR of them, they could still steer the lynch in the way that there will be a double-lynch, even lynching Steve! So we should try avoid making it a possibility.

Therefore, I would rather urge all the innocents to vote just for one - and that would probably mean Nog. I am going to think about it still for a second, but I think it will be the best in the end. We will verify Steve's claim etc, so...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

What's the tally, by the way?

In any case, what I said - I think we should not split the votes anymore, or even give them the chance to be split.

++Nogrod

[Pitchwife]

Oops, that changes things quite a bit. I'm trusting Eönwë's dream - in part because it explains the single-minded, aggressive way he's gone after Nog toDay, but mostly because it would be suicide for him if Nog turned out innocent, and I know he's too clever for that.

That said, I don't see Legate's initial reluctance to fall out of his chair trusting Eönwë as suspicious, but rather a point in his favour. Has everybody forgotten that for all we know, the Acolyte may get dreams as well and, whether xe works with the wolves or on their own, is by all evidence not on our side?

That's not saying Eönwë can't be our genuine seer, of course, but the possibility that he's something else should at least be considered - unless of course you know he's not the Acolyte; which makes me have worrisome thoughts about Zil's eagerness to accept his reveal.

But whatever Eönwë is, it doesn't change the fact that he'd be mad to claim a false dream. Therefore, for toDay:

++Nog


(EDIT: x-ed with two Legates)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oops, that changes things quite a bit. I'm trusting Eönwë's dream - in part because it explains the single-minded, aggressive way he's gone after Nog toDay, but mostly because it would be suicide for him if Nog turned out innocent, and I know he's too clever for that.
Indeed. That determinedness was basically (see above) what made me reconsider him. Obviously, it's an awkward thing, but he really had been very strongly going after Nog - and a Wolf wouldn't be as consistent, I believe.

Has everybody forgotten that for all we know, the Acolyte may get dreams as well and, whether xe works with the wolves or on their own, is by all evidence not on our side?
Very good point. In fact, I haven't even thought about that (the initial impression was simply that it is a fake - and very badly made - revelation to save own skin and lull the Seer out), but certainly the point about not trusting everything I see immediately as face value is also there.

With the Acolyte, we are, it seems to me, operating also under the paranoid notion (supported by the mysterious Night narration) that Acolyte is something sinister and evil; maybe it is, but we can't know for sure. We might toDay also get the narration like "...and the Acolyte prevented a Wolf-lynch" or something (okay, this example in particular is unlikely, but might be e.g. the Acolyte can kill a person one Night, dream a person another Night, based on what allegiance he chooses or whatnot, and then do something with it... etc etc etc etc...) Or, what would be really brilliant role (but rather horrible) would be something like "Each Night, you dream of a person, you don't learn anything, you don't even assume its role in the strict sense, but the Mod determines randomly what you do based on the role of the person - e.g. you dream of Ranger, you randomly protect a person and it will be reflected in the narration. You dream of a Wolf, you push a random person - e.g. Eruhen - out of the window... now try to figure out for yourself how this system works and do about it what you will."

Okay, that's sort of strange... but you at least probably get the general idea. It's just an idea, anyway.

That said, I still don't believe the Acolyte kills every Night. (If at all, anyway.)

Might also be that Acolyte has some special abilities and then has something like "By Day 3, you need to pick your allegiance - until then you can do whatever you wish, but after that, you cannot change it." (If that were so, I'd strongly urge the Acolyte to be a nice guy/girl and join the village.)

[Nogrod]

You servants of evil: die! :mad:

For Gondor!
:)


Well,it was fun as long as it lasted...

[Nerwen]

Deadline. No more posting.

[Nerwen]

Much of the talk that day was of Rikae, and of how the spies could have managed to get the better of one so formidable, but after that the discussion turned to the strange death of Eruhen. Overnight many had been wondering if the eunuch's self-immolation had really been what it seemed, and by midday the "murder" school of thought definitely prevailed. The culprit, it was decided, had to be the mysterious Acolyte. However, no one had any idea what to do about this new threat, nor yet any clear idea who the spies might be. A sense of weary hopelessness settled over the gathering.

At first everyone cheered up when the Fool capered in, singing and waving his fantastical clown-head staff, but soon it became apparent that his humour was of an all-too-topical kind.

"I say, I say! When is a camel-merchant not a camel-merchant? When he's really a spy a disguise!"

"I don't get it," said Treasurer Inziladun, frowning and tugging at his long grey beard. "Comedy has certainly changed since I was a lad! There's something vague and unsettling about it."

"This Fool," said the Legate from the East, narrowing his eyes, "is making a camel out of a midget, as we say in Khand. If anything, that sounds like an attempt to frame up a person."

A Little Green nodded. "The Legate more or less said what I meant to say. I think it's time my serpents took a nibble of Eönwë."

"It's a pity we're not back home," said Pitchwife wistfully, "so he could be made to walk the plank."

"YesterDay," said Lommy, the Royal Physician, "I didn't see where all the suspicion against him was coming from. ToDay, I can quite see it. What, by all the gods, was that attack against Nogrod?"

"Abracadabra!" yelled Lottie, producing a small shower of green sparks and a much larger cloud of smoke that set everyone to coughing. "Yes, my divining spell proves it. Eeeeeeeeeeeevil!"

"All right, that's it!" The jester threw down his staff and flung his cap to the floor in a jingle of tiny bells. "I was a fool indeed to try and help you barbarians, and I'll be a fool no more!" He stripped off his gaily-coloured motley. Beneath, he was garbed entirely in black– except for the crimson Eye on his chest. "Yes! I am the Envoy of Mordor! My Master has granted me the ability to see into the hearts of Men– and I tell you Nogrod is a wolf, a northern spy, a vile plotter!"

"He's bluffing!" Nogrod protested. "He's a spy himself! Kill him!"

But of the company only the Legate of Khand supported him, saying that Eönwë's story was full of gaps and holes, and that he didn't trust any Northerner, or anyone who would trust one, for that matter. (Here he directed a stern look at Inziladun, who had been the first to support the alleged Envoy.)

Nogrod continued to argue even as he was bound for execution. "Look, even if– just for the sake of argument– I was, in fact, a spy– ha! ha!– it's more important to get rid of the Acolyte before he murders us all in our sleep. And by the Acolyte I mean Zil! Zil the Acolyte! He killed Eruhen!"

"What are you talking about?" asked Zil. "Still, I'd rather you lynch me than the Envoy, if the worst comes to the worst."

"You see? Only the Acolyte would say that, you Acolyte!"

"Whatever Nogrod may be, he's right about the Acolyte." Guard-lieutenant Shasta, who had been silent for most of the day, suddenly spoke up. "We could lynch them both, just to be on the safe side, and let the gods sort it out."

Legate of Khand was struck by the idea, but the rest of the company thought it too risky, and were more interested in dreaming up a suitable means of executing Nogrod. Finally they decided to force-feed him vast amounts of his own (very inferior) coffee, a punishment they deemed harsh enough even for one of the wolf-hearted Northerners.

As the massive dose of caffeine took effect, Nogrod's whole body trembled and he went into convulsions so violent that some among the onlookers thought the ropes would snap under the strain

A wild laugh broke from his lips. "You servants of evil: die! For Gondor!"

He lay still a moment, sucking in harsh, desperate breaths of air, then whispered, "Well, it was fun as long as it lasted..."

With a final spasm, Nogrod died.

The spirit had barely fled from his body when that body itself began to change, features blurring and shifting, skin becoming pale as milk. Even the blank dead eyes turned from brown to the same eerie grey as the Envoy's. It was no Haradian merchant who lay dead before them, but one of the hated Men of Gondor!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Living
Boromir88 –Wealthy mûmak breeder.
Sally –Messenger girl.
Galadriel55 –Professional assassin.
Shasta –Particularly attentive guard-lieutenant.
Steve –Court Jester (from Umbar).
Pomegranate –Entertainer.
A Little Green –The Empress's favourite snake-charmer.
Pitchwife –Captain in the "Provisional Royal Númenórean Navy" and emissary of Angamaitë IX, Lord of Umbar.
Lottie –Accident-prone sorcerer's apprentice.
Inziladun –Minister of the Treasury.
Lommy! –Court physician.
Legate of Amon Lanc –Legate of Khand.

Dead
The Empress of Harad. Mod. –assassinated in her sleep.
Bom Tombadillo –Greatly afflicted beggar. Ordo. –multiple stab wounds.
Eruhen –Court eunuch. Ordo. –burned to death on the Empress's funeral pyre.
Rikae –Empress's handmaiden. Royal Executioner. –garotted with own wire.
Nogrod –Camel and coffee trader. Spy. –poisoned with own merchandise.

It is now Night Three.

[Nerwen]

Dark was the mood of the three spies that night as they climbed the staircase that led to the Envoy's quarters.

"I care not what happens to us now," one muttered, speaking for them all, "as long as I see the blood of that accursed sorcerer!"

As they neared the landing that was their goal, they were most encouraged to see that the Envoy's door was unguarded.

"Odd, this. Magician or not, I'd say he's too confident for his own good–"

"The Envoy," said a voice behind them, "is defended better than you think." Galadriel55, the assassin, stepped into the pool of flickering light cast by one of the torches that lined the stairwell. "Shall I slay you now, Northern devils? Or will your craven souls, lusting after a few more hours of life, tempt you to surrender, that you may be led to execution tomorrow?" The light flashed on the long, sharp blade of her dagger. "Which is it to be?"

"Neither. It is you we shall slay, barbarian!" they said, drawing their own weapons.

"By Elbereth!" said one. "Is it to be only women we kill, though? Doesn't seem right..."

"A woman? Say rather, a fiend. You saw what she did to those slaves, didn't you? And she played full part in poor Nogrod's killing," replied another grimly. "Tonight the assassin shall be assassinated! For Gondor!"

"For the Empress!" shrieked Galadriel55.

Like Rikae before her, Galadriel fought with the savagery of a true fanatic. Her blade did the work of three, flashing and whirling in a deadly dance of steel. Outnumbered though she was, it seemed she might yet prove more than a match for the three spies. Then one of them managed to lunge past her guard, gashing her across the shoulder. It was not, in itself, a mortal wound, but the shock of it sent the blade spinning from her hand. Worse, it made her lose her precarious footing on the edge of the step.

The assassin teetered for a moment, arms flailing, then with a scream fell backwards and crashed down the stairs, to lie sprawled and motionless at the bottom.

The three made their way down gingerly, half-afraid she was merely shamming, but they need not have worried. Galadriel's broken neck was bent almost at right angles to her body, though she was so newly dead that the blood still ran from her wound.

"Wait, that's funny," said one of the spies, bending for a closer look.

The rip in the black cloth of the assassin's robe revealed another layer of clothing beneath– this one a brilliant scarlet, embroidered on the shoulder with a design in gold thread.

Bloody though it was, they had no difficulty in recognising the triple serpent insignia of the Captain of the Guard.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Living
Boromir88 –Wealthy mûmak breeder.
Sally –Messenger girl.
Shasta –Particularly attentive guard-lieutenant.
Steve –Court Jester (from Umbar).
Pomegranate –Entertainer.
A Little Green –The Empress's favourite snake-charmer.
Pitchwife –Captain in the "Provisional Royal Númenórean Navy" and emissary of Angamaitë IX, Lord of Umbar.
Lottie –Accident-prone sorcerer's apprentice.
Inziladun –Minister of the Treasury.
Lommy! –Court physician.
Legate of Amon Lanc –Legate of Khand.

Dead
The Empress of Harad. Mod. –assassinated in her sleep.
Bom Tombadillo –Greatly afflicted beggar. Ordo. –multiple stab wounds.
Eruhen –Court eunuch. Ordo. –burned to death on the Empress's funeral pyre.
Rikae –Empress's handmaiden. Royal Executioner. –garotted with own wire.
Nogrod –Camel and coffee trader. Spy. –poisoned with own merchandise.
Galadriel55 –Professional assassin. Captain of the Guard. –neck broken in stairwell fight.

Day Three has begun.

[A Little Green]

A dead wolf is gloating next to me. I find that disturbing. :eek:

[Eönwë]

NOOOOOOO! I dreamed her as well.

[Eönwë]

Also, only one kill. I wonder what that means the first one was.

[A Little Green]

Also, only one kill. I wonder what that means the first one was.Might be that the Acolyte only kills once, or that s/he only kills every other Night, or that s/he only kills when s/he wants to, or that s/he kills randomly, or - just about anything, really.

Well. If we want to think positive, at least we don't have to worry about accidentally lynching Gifteds any more. :rolleyes: And likewise, we're one wolf down which means we'll have a deal to analyze toDay!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Might be that the Acolyte only kills once, or that s/he only kills every other Night, or that s/he only kills when s/he wants to, or that s/he kills randomly, or - just about anything, really.
That's basically what I think too. I never believed for a second that the Acolyte would be simply a Werebear, or anything that would kill every Night. If it had anything to do with the Acolyte, anyway.

Well. If we want to think positive, at least we don't have to worry about accidentally lynching Gifteds any more. :rolleyes: And likewise, we're one wolf down which means we'll have a deal to analyze toDay!
Unless lynching the Acolyte counts. Let's bear in mind we still don't know if the Acolyte is evil or not.

Anyway, it's rather bad to lose the Captain, I wonder if it was a targeted thing (I would say yes - a good deal of people suspected her, so why else to kill her unless there was good chance she was Gifted or something). By any chance, you didn't leave any clues yesterDay about that you would want to dream about her, Eönwë, in case the WWs might have spotted that or something? Otherwise I don't know what she had been saying which could have triggered her death. But I would assume it was probably that the WWs assumed she was Gifted, that seems to me at least logical. And there are other priorities toDay to analyze, as it was said, namely Nogrod and his actions the previous days - so that's what we should focus on.

I'll look at it too, during the upcoming hours; I will be doing other stuff besides playing too, but I'll be popping up from time to time.

[Pomegranate]

Oh no! I guess this means one thing - Eonwe, you'll be dead after toNight, so it would be worthy of getting your one ordo.

Also, I'm ill, too much to be able to think much, but I'll try my best. That will at least mean I'll be here all the time, in my bed, following the game. Things that I managed to think about yesterDay while following the game on my phone on all the little free bits I had:

Legate. I was looking at him yesterday thinking, there's no reason an innocent person would react to Eonwe's revelation like that. I mean, yes, you can question that, you can 'not be sure' but if you don't know more than an ordo, I can see NO reason why you would dare that much with the life of our Seer. The only reason I could think for you acting like that would have been if you had been the real Seer and tried to save Nog without being exposed yourself. Now that we can be sure that's not the case, I don't think there's any explanation Legate could give that would make him less wolf-like in my head.

Besides Legate, there's still two wolves amongst us however, and of those two I don't really have any idea yet. Though it would be amusing if Greenie, Lommy and Nog had all been wolves, sitting together in the same room panicing about one of them being lynched. But that's just a funny idea, it is no suspection, nothing in-game related.

And one thing I'd like to know is where did we decide that Inzil is the acolyte and the acolyte is bad? I mean, Nog started it, obviously to get us away from himself, but besides him I think Legate (which doesn't really surprise me) and Shasta went along with it. How were you so sure, Shasta? That does make you look a lot worse in my head, at least until you explain (as well as the fact you wanted to try for double-lynch, which is scary business in general).

x/ed with Greenie and Legate

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh no! I guess this means one thing - Eonwe, you'll be dead after toNight, so it would be worthy of getting your one ordo.
I actually suggest first NOT. Keep everyone (especially the WWs, therefore) in the dark until the end of the Day - or until most people really have to start voting, at least (=e.g. if people started to suspect you one Ordo heavily, Eönwë, you should stop them and reveal the person) - because if you don't say that yet, the WWs can be confused, we can possibly read more from their reactions... Nobody will kill you until the end of the Day, right, so no hurry with that.

Legate. I was looking at him yesterday thinking, there's no reason an innocent person would react to Eonwe's revelation like that. I mean, yes, you can question that, you can 'not be sure' but if you don't know more than an ordo, I can see NO reason why you would dare that much with the life of our Seer. The only reason I could think for you acting like that would have been if you had been the real Seer and tried to save Nog without being exposed yourself. Now that we can be sure that's not the case, I don't think there's any explanation Legate could give that would make him less wolf-like in my head.
Well it was similar - I suspected Eönwë so heavily at the moment he revealed that I thought his revelation MUST be fake, so I thought the real Seer is probably still somewhere, and wanted to make it so that the real Seer wouldn't have to counter-reveal yet, because that's what I thought Eönwë had intended (along with saving himself - there was no real logical reason for him to pretend to be the Seer if he was a Wolf. I thought he was a lame scared Wolf who lost his nerves seeing he's getting heavy suspicion and probably getting lynched, and so he tried to save his skin for at least one Day AND drag the Seer along with him. As you see, that would make perfect sense).

[A Little Green]

Anyway, it's rather bad to lose the Captain, I wonder if it was a targeted thing (I would say yes - a good deal of people suspected her, so why else to kill her unless there was good chance she was Gifted or something). By any chance, you didn't leave any clues yesterDay about that you would want to dream about her, Eönwë, in case the WWs might have spotted that or something? Otherwise I don't know what she had been saying which could have triggered her death. But I would assume it was probably that the WWs assumed she was Gifted, that seems to me at least logical.Not that it matters a great deal, but I think they did believe Gal was Gifted; she was quite nervous and jumpy a lot of the time. Also, why would Steve leave a hint as to who he was going to dream? Makes no sense, buddy.

How were you so sure, Shasta? That does make you look a lot worse in my head, at least until you explain (as well as the fact you wanted to try for double-lynch, which is scary business in general).He never wanted a double-lynch, though. What he said was, Nog is a wolf. Fine. Lynch him tomorrow.I started working on a vote analysis, but don't have time to finish it now. Anyway, I should be around most of the Day (and this time also at DL!), I'll be gone some hours now but back in a bit.


EDIT: x-ed with Legzy

[Nerwen]

Sorry for the delay in getting the narration up– I've been busy and the wolves, I mean spies, didn't send the kill in until very late.

[Eönwë]

it would be amusing if Greenie, Lommy and Nog had all been wolves, sitting together in the same room panicing about one of them being lynched. But that's just a funny idea, it is no suspection, nothing in-game related. I've thought of this a few times, since I've suspected them all a little bit at some time.

I actually suggest first NOT. Keep everyone (especially the WWs, therefore) in the dark until the end of the Day
No. No. No. Because then I'm just revealing them for the wolves, and they don't get the opportunity to go all out as a person totally free from suspicion. I'm sorry, but all the suggestions you've made about who to reveal when are ones that are detrimental to the village, disguised as a concerned remark. In fact, I still think that you're the most likely to be a wolf.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Not that it matters a great deal, but I think they did believe Gal was Gifted; she was quite nervous and jumpy a lot of the time. Also, why would Steve leave a hint as to who he was going to dream? Makes no sense, buddy.
I was just checking whether he perchance didn't. Some people do, I don't know if Steve is one of them. Never heard of Seer saying something like "I might keep my eye on..."?

He never wanted a double-lynch, though. What he said was, I started working on a vote analysis, but don't have time to finish it now. Anyway, I should be around most of the Day (and this time also at DL!), I'll be gone some hours now but back in a bit.
He did not say it maybe, but he was playing with it dangerously by putting the second line of votes there.

No. No. No. Because then I'm just revealing them for the wolves, and they don't get the opportunity to go all out as a person totally free from suspicion.

They will get that opportunity the next Day, of course! That's how it's always been done. Because toNight, of course, YOU will die, most likely (and if not, the better). So it's not revaling them only for the Wolves! And on top of that, they would have that chance after you reveal that - like I said, sometime later. Since we have Americans who will probably vote overnight European time (and should better know who is not a Wolf before the vote), then e.g. evening European time would be good. Of course, it's entirely your call.

Off for maybe half an hour or hour, I'll be back.

[Pomegranate]

Greenie:


However, I didn't even consider a double-lynch idea. That would solve the conundrum quite nicely. Who's left to vote? Can we pull it off?


Well, I encourage everyone to think about it quite hard. I'm going to bed - I can't keep my eyes open. Given my aberrant schedule, though, I may be back awake again before DL. We'll see.

Good luck in any case!

This didn't get too serious because after that Shasta left - however, there it is, trying to lure us at least a bit into the idea.

Eonwe: Them? Didn't you just say you dreamed of G55?

[Eönwë]

Eonwe: Them? Didn't you just say you dreamed of G55?Yes, I did.

It was just an entertaining thought I had earlier in the game. That's what I meant. Unless you were referring to something else I said.

[Pomegranate]

No. No. No. Because then I'm just revealing them for the wolves, and they don't get the opportunity to go all out as a person totally free from suspicion. I'm sorry, but all the suggestions you've made about who to reveal when are ones that are detrimental to the village, disguised as a concerned remark. In fact, I still think that you're the most likely to be a wolf.

Referred to this. There has been three nights - that would leave you with one ordo, Nog and G55.

[Eönwë]

Referred to this. There has been three nights - that would leave you with one ordo, Nog and G55.
I can't dream everyone I suspect, can I? I only get one pick per Night.

edit: And I didn't suspect them enough to dream them anyway.

[Pomegranate]

Eonwe: exactly. Three nights leave you with three names: Nog, G55 and an ordo. But you talk about revealing "them" - though there's only one person for you to reveal. (To be honest, I don't know if this actually matters, it was just a side note, but now it's annoying not to be understood)

[Eönwë]

Also, I'd like to say that I find it likely that if the Acolyte did kill Eru (We still haven't definitely had it stated that it wasn't a requested modfire, for example), then that means they probably chose the good side. I mean, Eru's "I'm here but I'll just watch" doesn't look too great.

Also, I've just realised that if the Acolyte can choose what they do (i.e. between seer, ranger and kill) each Night, they can still protect me. If it's cyclical, then then they can't.

[Eönwë]

Eonwe: exactly. Three nights leave you with three names: Nog, G55 and an ordo. But you talk about revealing "them" - though there's only one person for you to reveal. (To be honest, I don't know if this actually matters, it was just a side note, but now it's annoying not to be understood)

Oh, "them". I meant xem. Sorry.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

That's basically what I think too. I never believed for a second that the Acolyte would be simply a Werebear, or anything that would kill every Night. If it had anything to do with the Acolyte, anyway.
I thought the narration was pretty clear on that fact, myself. Unless a "shadowy figure" isn't supposed to be suspicious. :rolleyes:

And one thing I'd like to know is where did we decide that Inzil is the acolyte and the acolyte is bad? I mean, Nog started it, obviously to get us away from himself, but besides him I think Legate (which doesn't really surprise me) and Shasta went along with it. How were you so sure, Shasta? That does make you look a lot worse in my head, at least until you explain (as well as the fact you wanted to try for double-lynch, which is scary business in general).
1. Inzil was hinting at something during Day 1. If you'll remember, Rikae mentioned it quite blatantly.

2. Nog's points about it. The fact that he was a wolf doesn't really matter - the Acolyte doesn't count for the innocents or the wolves; plus, every indication was that the Acolyte was some type of Werebear, with the Eruhen kill. Wolves have an interest in getting rid of the Werebear - besides that the Werebear could kill them at night, something they aren't usually worried about, the Wolves and Werebear traditionally cannot win together. I don't think Nog's points about Inzil being the Acolyte should be discounted just because he was a wolf.

3. (and really the best point) - He hasn't denied it. Every time the subject has gotten a little too close to someone asking him directly, Inzil has either avoided the question or changed the subject.

Now then, what was so scary about wanting to double lynch Nog (a Seer-dreamt wolf) and Inzil (who I'm convinced is the Acolyte, and want to lynch)? Let's look at the votes from yesterday -
Eonwe - Greenie (Eonwe 1)
Pom - Legate (Eonwe 1, Legate 1)
(Eonwe's reveal)
Inzil - Nog (Eonwe 1, Legate 1, Nog 1)
Lottie - Nog (Eonwe 1, Legate 1, Nog 2)
Nog - Eonwe (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 2)
G55 - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 3)
Sally - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 4)
Boro - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 5)
Shasta - Inzil (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 5, Inzil 1)
Eonwe - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 6, Inzil 1)
Lommy - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 7, Inzil 1)
Legate - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 8, Inzil 1)
Pitch - Nog (Eonwe 2, Legate 1, Nog 9, Inzil 1)
When I voted Inzil, Nog had 5 votes. Therefore, even if every person after me had voted Inzil, Nog would still have been lynched along with him.

Which, coincidentally, renders this point by Legate -
BUT on second thought, no, really not - we should preferably try to vote for the same person in order to avoid a multiple lynch (or in the worst case, lynching the Seer along!!!!!!) - so in this light, Shasta's suggestion would really not look very good.

I mean, we don't know how many WWs have voted already, but given that there are FOUR of them, they could still steer the lynch in the way that there will be a double-lynch, even lynching Steve! So we should try avoid making it a possibility.
- utter bollocks, if you'll pardon the saying. Sure, the other three wolves could have voted Eonwe. That would just have required manipulation of the space-time continuum (at the point Legate said this, it was just him and Pitch left to vote), and would have put Eonwe at 5 and Nog at 6. Brilliant!

...Wait, what? :confused:

He did not say it maybe, but he was playing with it dangerously by putting the second line of votes there.
See above.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Conclusions from above - I think Inzil is the Acolyte, I would ideally like to get rid of him before he can kill again, and some things Legate have said have been so far off the mark and unlike how I know Legate to act that it's basically Nog vol. II to my eyes at the moment.

(That is to say, I thought Nog was suspicious for defending G55's outburst, in total counter to how he would normally act, and now Legate, normally quite sensible, has been acting very crazy.)

[satansaloser2005]

So let me get this straight. So far, I've suspected the hunter (Rikae, on Day 1), the ranger (Galadriel, on Day every Day so far), the seer (Steve, see Galadriel), and one wolf (Nog, on Day 2).

Well, at least my gifted radar is still intact. >.<

Anyway, following this logic, and this lack of luck, Dun, Pitch, or Legate (my top pick) must be the Acolyte, and the other two wolves.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

I seem to suspect those with skills
Who then tend to be Nightly kills
Does this mean that Dun
Is really The One
Or one who ate Nerwen for thrills?


EDIT: x'd with two Shastas. Heyo.

[Eönwë]

Anyway, following this logic, and this lack of luck, Dun, Pitch, or Legate (my top pick) must be the Acolyte, and the other two wolves.
What? :eek:

[satansaloser2005]

What? :eek:

What? What's that face for? *blinks* Oh, I see. Fair enough, I suppose. I meant that one of them must be the Acolyte, while the other two are probably wolves. (Although good on you, mate. If I'd been a wolf, I would have omitted the comma there, the one between Acolyte and the wolves. Sharp eye, even though in this case it means nothing.)


Or, as they say in Limerick....

I see Steve-O has his eyes peeled
For anything we might reveal
Though my posts are bare
Of all lupine hair
I still must admire his zeal

[Boromir88]

Lovely, now the Ranger.

At least there's one dead wolf to follow, sometimes once we get that first one, the rest start falling. And Nog certainly leaves a lot of stuff to wade through. I only wish you didn't feel like you had to reveal yesterday. I mean, I understand why you did, but I was hoping if people could just stop and see Nog was acting completely irrational/paranoid whenever someone started suspecting him, that he was being far from the thoughtful, considerate Nog. But that post crossed with your reveal, and I threw my hands up, because my immediate reaction was...Seriously Eonwe? all that time I just spent on Nog...wasted. :rolleyes:

This didn't get too serious because after that Shasta left - however, there it is, trying to lure us at least a bit into the idea.

I'm rather suspicious of Shasta, but not for tossing out the double-lynch idea. Not all double-lynches are bad (my very first game the village won because of an orchestrated multiple like 5-person lynch...it was brilliant and just shows the brilliance of innocents when we can band together. But yeah, most double-lynches aren't orchestrated by innocents, rather happen randomly due to cross-voting messes or hijacked by wolves.

It's what Shasta said about my vote:

Also, Boro? Your most recent post? Looks exactly like Glirdywolf from the Alice in Wonderland game of Wilwa's - you know, the one where it turned out he really was a wolf who was that eager to bus a packmate. Not really helping your case there, buddy.

First off, I have no idea how I'm supposed to remember what Glirdan did in some other game years ago. Maybe I'm a stickler for this stuff, but that snipe doesn't sit well with me. "Looks exactly like Glirdywolf"...right "exactly" and since Glirdan bused the death of a packmate in some other game, I'm doing exactly the same now? :rolleyes:

Look, everyone knows I have no problem getting packmates lynched when I'm a wolf. You don't have to reference another person, in a game years ago, and say "it's exactly the same!" to make this point. That comment just didn't sit well, because it's another over the top reaction..."Look everyone! Look what Boro is doing! It's exactly like another wolf, in this other game!"

Also, I find it rather curious this acolyte-focus similarity from Nog and Shasta yesterday. Nog, to save himself, tried to make us turn against the acolyte. Which, well might have worked since the role is still extremely mysterious. But try following Nog's argument and it made absolutely no sense. If he was an ordo (like he was trying to argue yesterday) there was just no way he could know what side the acolyte is on and what actions/powers the acolyte had.

A wolf wouldn't know either, but the very fact he argued the Acolyte must have been with the wolves, means the wolves have probably entertained the idea of trying to find the acolyte/turn the acolyte to their side. Now that we know Nog is a wolf, it would appear, based on his argument yesterday, the acolyte in fact is not on the wolf team yet. I don't know if the acolyte is on any team, could be on the acolyte team, but for the time being we can't get into these circular debates about what's the acolyte's role and what side he's on. We don't know, but it appears, based on Nog's posting yesterday, the wolves don't know either.

And now, what I find curious, is Shasta tried a more subtle sew distrust about the acolyte yesterday.

Seriously? Guys. Look at the Eruhen kill. It's pretty clear at this point that the Acolyte, if not a traditional werebear, at least has the power to kill by himself (I say him because Nog being a wolf doesn't mean his points about Inzil being the Acolyte aren't valid - I've thought so myself since yesterday, as did Rikae apparently).

Nog is a wolf. Fine. Lynch him tomorrow. Lynching one wolf out of four isn't going to have any short-term effects - if we lynch Inzil (who clearly, at this point, doesn't have the best interests of the village in mind), we drop the number of kills per night to one. (bolding my emphasis)

Based Nog being ousted yesterday he tried the "hit us over the head" approach. "The acolyte is clearly on the wolf team! And I'm innocent, so even though I can't possibly know what the acolyte is doing, he's clearly for the wolves and we're all going to die tomorrow if you lynch me."

Shasta, tries to do the same, only not so "bash you over the head" with it approach. He accepts Nog's a wolf, but doesn't vote based on that, and instead tries to sew seeds of doubt about the acolyte. Again, who can possibly know this?

And I must ask, who would benefit more from trying to make us doubt the allegiance of the acolyte? I'm not saying maybe the acolyte is against us, I'm just saying I don't know. But I accept I don't know and I leave it at that. It would appear Nog (and therefor the wolves) don't know either, but that also means the Acolyte isn't on their side either. So, who then would benefit trying to get us to turn attention and lynch the acolyte? (Yes. That's a rhetorical question)

Edit: crossed since Eonwe's post #300

[Eönwë]

Boro looks bad through association- either the wolves have latched onto him or he's one of them.

edit: forgot to click post, and now x-ed with the man himself

[Pomegranate]

Shasta: okay, the double-lynch-danger was me not counting the votes. Though technically, if of the rest one would've gone with you and then the three wolves would have voted for Eonwe, he would've gotten lynched. But I can see that's not exactly likely, so as I said, it's me not counting the votes.

And to your three reasons - the third does actually seem somewhat valid. However, to the first, I'm sorry what? Okay, it might be me not being able to read Inzil so theoretically I could've missed some signs he made, but I wouldn't say Rikae "mentioned it quite blatantly". All she said about him was that a) he wasn't contributing (in the beginning) and b)

I was going to vote for someone else, but the recent posts from

++Inzil

have a bad vibe to them, as if he's confident that he shifted the focus and can see one of the other suspects lynched. An innocent who dodged suspicion might be relieved, but would still be concerned about placing his own vote correctly and finding the actual wolves, and the tone of his posts seems off in light of that. In addition to my earlier suspicions it puts him in the lead.

which to me doesn't seem like screaming "He's acolyte!" , just a relatively simple suspicion from a person who doesn't know more than the ordos (though, obviously, whom we can trust).

And I still don't think that xem killing Eru shows surely and absolutely that acolyte's evil - xe has now killed on one night, and a person who didn't really contribute. It's really hard for me to believe that it would be as easy as a werebear. Even if xe's only on xeir own side, that doesn't absolutely mean his aim would be to kill us. It would be either too much for the village - having four wolves already - , or too hard for xem - if xe only kills once in a while, how on earth would xe possibly manage to get rid of all of us, both wolves and the villagers?

x/ed with Boro and Eonwe

[Inziladun]

I echo the thought that G55 was likely pegged as possibly the Captain, and targeted for that reason.

Legate. I was looking at him yesterday thinking, there's no reason an innocent person would react to Eonwe's revelation like that. I mean, yes, you can question that, you can 'not be sure' but if you don't know more than an ordo, I can see NO reason why you would dare that much with the life of our Seer. The only reason I could think for you acting like that would have been if you had been the real Seer and tried to save Nog without being exposed yourself. Now that we can be sure that's not the case, I don't think there's any explanation Legate could give that would make him less wolf-like in my head.

Legate's behaviour yesterDay regarding Steve's reveal was very similar to Nog's. And his pushing to have out any known, dreamed innocents right then just didn't seem like something someone as logical as Legate would do as an innocent.

And one thing I'd like to know is where did we decide that Inzil is the acolyte and the acolyte is bad? I mean, Nog started it, obviously to get us away from himself, but besides him I think Legate (which doesn't really surprise me) and Shasta went along with it. How were you so sure, Shasta? That does make you look a lot worse in my head, at least until you explain (as well as the fact you wanted to try for double-lynch, which is scary business in general).

I honestly have no idea why (innocent) people would be after me as the Acolyte.

We don't know what killed Eru Night 2, and we have no clear facts about the Acolyte's purpose or alignment. Period. My focus is on the Spies.

2. Nog's points about it. The fact that he was a wolf doesn't really matter - the Acolyte doesn't count for the innocents or the wolves; plus, every indication was that the Acolyte was some type of Werebear, with the Eruhen kill. Wolves have an interest in getting rid of the Werebear - besides that the Werebear could kill them at night, something they aren't usually worried about, the Wolves and Werebear traditionally cannot win together. I don't think Nog's points about Inzil being the Acolyte should be discounted just because he was a wolf.

If the Spies are so concerned about the Acolyte, and they're convinced I am it, why didn't they target me last Night? Unless, as you're doing, they decided they could get me lynched toDay and save themselves another Night. Then Steve dies, and they have a clear path to victory.

3. (and really the best point) - He hasn't denied it. Every time the subject has gotten a little too close to someone asking him directly, Inzil has either avoided the question or changed the subject.

Come on, is that really your "best" point?

Ok, I'm not the Acolyte. Satisfied?

x/d with Boro, Steve, and Pom

[Shastanis Althreduin]

And now, what I find curious, is Shasta tried a more subtle sew distrust about the acolyte yesterday.
Subtle? I thought I was being quite blatant. I don't trust the Acolyte, and I don't think anyone else should. Good try, Boro.

And another thing. Your post that was basically 'you just look so suspicious Nog' was way more over-the-top than anything I've said thus far. The similarity between that and how I remember Glirdan being was too uncanny for me not to mention it. You're really reaching incredibly far here.

Pom -
Now Inzil, come out and claim what you're trying to claim so we can all see how implausible it really is! :p
This is the post I was referencing when I said "blatant".
And I still don't think that xem killing Eru shows surely and absolutely that acolyte's evil - xe has now killed on one night, and a person who didn't really contribute.
I recall Eruhen being quite a good contributor in the past. I think saying "oh, he didn't really contribute, that's all right then" is selling him a bit short - and the fact remains, the acolyte killed an innocent. Granted, we don't know for sure that it's going to happen again. But I for one think it's very likely. Why no one seems to be concerned about this is genuinely beyond me.
We don't know what killed Eru Night 2
Well, it wasn't a modkill (Nerwen would have said so) and it wasn't a wolf kill (that was Rikae in the narration), so...? I think that's pretty clear.
Ok, I'm not the Acolyte. Satisfied?
Cool. I don't believe you, but cool. Then what were you really doing Day 1?

[Eönwë]

Well, it wasn't a modkill (Nerwen would have said so)
Actually:

Nerwen, was Eruhen modfired (perhaps upon request), or is his death really a mystery?Not telling.:p

[Inziladun]

Cool. I don't believe you, but cool. Then what were you really doing Day 1?

I've already been through that with Legate, ad infinitum.

I understand the Acolyte ought to be a concern, but it shouldn't be the primary concern.

Despite known Spy Nog's, and your exhortations that the Acolyte is a big deal, the Spies are a far greater deal. We don't, for all you say, know what the Acolyte does. We know precisely what the Spies do.

At the moment, if I had to vote, it would probably be for Legate or Shasta.

[Eönwë]

Ok, let's entertain the possibility that Boro is a wolf.

What bothers me about Boro is the way he painted G55 suspicious. To me her strong reaction to Rikae's question for Lottie looked very sincere indeed (as I said already back there). So Boro's attack looked to me like a wolf noticing a possible pray who has made herself vulnerable, and jumping for it. It's hard to see evil in a game, but it felt like a malvolent intent there.
Ok, it's weird for Nog to start defending people this early, but even if we just ignore that, his next post which mentions Boro is this:
I might vote for G55 or Boro, possibly Eruhen.
Now, in this space of time, he's suddenly put G55 at the top of his suspicion list (I think I may have to make a separate post on her and Nog later), but then still hasn't re-evaluated Boro. Obviously, we know he's a wolf now, but it seems like he's trying to contrive an argument against Boro. The thing is, with his 180 on G55, I might be tempted to believe that it was an intentionally bad argument that he knew he wouldn't have to commit to, which only makes it look like there's friction between them.

In the post I mentioned before the vote-post, there's also this:
Now what Greenie said about him walking away from a suspicion by ignoring it and "taking Greenie out from vote list", and what Legate said about his overall over-lenient manner are points I think merit considering as well. Not really sure about what to do with this, but it does just seem like he's again trying to pile on more unsubstantiated arguments.

G55 and Boro do post and they can be read - and Eruhen has said all the time he was busy - so he'll have a chance to explain him toMorrow. So I think we are making a decent decision. Not sure how that justifies it, but ok.



Now, this post on Rikae is where it begins to get more interesting:
Inzil clearly bears the brunt of her suspicion - and the vote in the end (even and maybe importantly notwithstanding that she says she was going to vote someone else!). She suspects Eönwë somewhat (only makes one point in one post though), seems to be engaged with Lottie and is pretty nasty with G55.

And then there is this odd thing about wabbits and coyotes & liking Greenie's vote on Boro - which whatever it means seems to suggest something about Boro.

So if someone felt Rikae was a threath enough to kill her it might have been Zil, Boro, or looking at how G55 reacts to things, then her (although she should have packmates to talk sense to her not to react like that). Or then someone just wished it to look that way.
So here, while he is saying that it could be a variety of people, with the wabbit/coyote thing, it looks very much like he is implying that Boro is the innocent one.

So... if she hunted Inzil or Boro (two that would have seen most likely by what happened yesterDay), then she failed aka. the one she hunted is not a wolf.

Now it is also quite possible - and maybe even probable - that being the crafty player she was, she was not hunting any of those she suspected aloud.

Whatever the case in regards to the former, it looks fairly certain she tried to make herself look like a hunter (if she thought enough many would have gotten that Looney Tunes hint). So she was luring the wolves to try her (in case the wolves were not in her suspicions so that they dared to try it).
So here he again mentions Looney Tunes (which again subtly connects it more to Boro, considering his previous post). Then he tries to claim that she may not have even left a hint at all. So it's as if he's saying that his official position is that she didn't leave a hint, but then he's left us with the undertone that if she did, it was Boro. And he further muddies the waters:
One of the basic hunter-strategies I would think, two versions of it would be applicable here.

a) You think you know Rupert Murdoch is a wolf but you stay quiet about him. Instead you give hints you are a hunter and suspect Bill Gates a lot in the open. Now if Rupert is a wolf, he might think that is his chance to get rid of the hunter and *pow* he dies trying it in the Night.

b) You think you know Rupert Murdoch is a wolf and you want to keep him at bay during the Nights to be able to play more - so you make an open threat to him by hinting you're a hunter and suspecting him a lot. (The second one isn't probably the best tactics as it dangers the use of your gift, but people have used it as well)
Just for completeness:
I mean yes, I can say Boro could be innocent, or then Zil could be innocent, or maybe Steve because she said she will "keep an eye on him", or... Which one that ingenius hint gives us to figure out?


I'll make a list of sorts before I go, but meanwhile I'd wish to hear from Eönwë and Boro to tell us which is their situation: the thoughtless overconfidence of a hindsight, or wolvery?
Despite apparently having him as his top suspect the Day before, this is the first time he directly asks Boro anything, or directly communicates with him. Seems fishy.

Boromir88: I'm suspecting him still even if he has been acting more Boroesque toDay. All this Rikae-stuff makes me doubt though. My reason says Rikae did not hunt him (why would she, after that open hinting?), but did Borowolf count on it being bluff (or was he afraid she was the seer?) or was it some others who tried to capitalise on the interpretation that we would then suspect Boro on her death (quite schemy and daring wolves then)? The way he revealed his wolfPOV, or hindsight POV, with Eönwë's suspicions on me he was only too happy to continue makes me wonder as well. If innocent he should have realised there was no way of knowing whether Bom was a wolf or an innocent beforehand on D1.



Ok, now I've revealed and he knows he's going to die at some point soon, and addresses me:
I thought it was odd G55 and you came after me with such fervour and determination (and Boro parrotting you). So I was right. You think you have that nice numbers that even if a ploy is revealed toDay there are enough confusion around that you win nicely even if this scheme of yours backfires.

Heh, I can see Boro's signature behind this... a bit distracted, not his sharp self... right.
There. Immediately Boro becomes top suspect. Completely separating them.

And mentioning this whole Night-suspicion plan... sounds like maybe they did plan it because they knew they were vocal players and would have to use it to their advantage, and so create a divide in the village on either side of them, with a false sense of competition on either side- both led by a wolf. Sounds like a bit of a risky plan though.

And on the other thought, it is possible that after G55's, Boro's and Eönwë's pre-decided effort seemed to fail (I have not seen the guys to answer my question about their accusations), Eönwë felt too much pressure (for a good reason as I think most everyone - other than the wolves - were thinking he was making himself more suspicious than me with his "case"), so he decided to go for a fake reveal without the counsel of the others...
Again, a pre-decided effort. He brings an innocent into this too, and so it may well serve the wolves better to put in a wolf among his "revenge innocents", i.e. ones that he wants to take out in return for being suspected.

We can't afford to lose an innocent in principle, but there sure are some chances (the Acolyte might not have a kill every Night, the ranger might save someone etc.). If we lynch Eönwë toDay, we're one wolf down, and you get one more dream (I'd suggest Boro or G55) while the ranger protects you. Then we'd have a second wolf, most likely. But you can of course come forwards and reveal the falsity of Eönwë - especially if you have other good news to bring.
More in the same post, implicating both of them. Again, once he's dead, it will make it look like they're both innocents. And one will be. So why not put in your fellow to look good as well?


And there end his posts on Boro as his desperation goes to the extreme. So, what does this show? I don't know. But they definitely have a weird relationship in this game.



Also, Legate has looked pretty bad since yesterDay, and this this from Day 1:
Just for further reference - I wonder if, in case Lommy is perchance innocent and Boro is perchance Wolf, there might not be attempt to save Boro by people voting Lommy. But that shall be seen.
Depending on the level of double-bluffing involved, it could look bad for either Lommy or Boro, unless he's attaching himself to two innocents.



So yeah, rather than making me more certain of anything, looking at this has just confused me more. Draw your own conclusions, innocents.


edit: grammar

[Eönwë]

Legate and Lommy also have an intersting relationship in this game, but I don't have much time to look right now. I have an essay to do, and I might get to it after that.

[Eönwë]

Also, I don't like Shasta's fixation with the Acolyte. We don't even know that xe definitely killed Eru, and even if xe did, that doesn't make xem bad. As I said before, Eru definitely wasn't the most shining example of innocentness on Day 1, so if the calling was caused by the Acolyte, I'd be inclined to say that xe has taken the side of the village.

[Pitchwife]

On the question of Eruhen's death - no, we don't know for sure whether he withdrew or was killed by the Acolyte, and maybe Nerwen is just amusing herself by leaving us in the dark; but the mention of a shadow on the curtain in the narration seems to me to indicate that there was someone else involved in his death, and unless we have an invisible killer rabbit among us that Nerwen forgot to mention in the rules, that doesn't leave a lot of possibilities.

I've already been through that with Legate, ad infinitum.
But don't you see that your reluctance to discuss the Acolyte could make people wonder whether you had any personal stakes in the matter? And your complete silence when Rikae challenged you on it could be seen as telling in its own way.

Maybe you aren't in fact the Acolyte, but don't you see how somebody could get the idea?

As I said before, Eru definitely wasn't the most shining example of innocentness on Day 1, so if the calling was caused by the Acolyte, I'd be inclined to say that xe has taken the side of the village.
Eruhen wasn't exactly the most shining example of anything on Day 1. With his totally unreasoned vote for Lommy and lack of contribution otherwise, I'd say his allegiance was pretty much a mystery, and deducting that his killer has taken the side of the village is rather a stretch.

That said, I must say I don't like Shasta's suggestion from yesterDay to lynch the putative Acolyte before Nog, because it would have left Nog's role, and thus the truth of Eönwë's dream, uncertain for another Day, giving the wolves time to concoct an emergency strategy, while risking to lynch an innocent instead. I can't see how that would have been helpful to anybody but the wolves.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Also, I don't like Shasta's fixation with the Acolyte. We don't even know that xe definitely killed Eru, and even if xe did, that doesn't make xem bad. As I said before, Eru definitely wasn't the most shining example of innocentness on Day 1, so if the calling was caused by the Acolyte, I'd be inclined to say that xe has taken the side of the village.

"Don't like" it all you wish. I'm going to keep doing it. Someone has to, because apparently no one's worried that's it's not just wolves killing us but me. Therefore, while I'm still going to be looking for wolves, I'm likely going to continue pushing an Inzil lynch.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

That said, I must say I don't like Shasta's suggestion from yesterDay to lynch the putative Acolyte before Nog, because it would have left Nog's role, and thus the truth of Eönwë's dream, uncertain for another Day, giving the wolves time to concoct an emergency strategy, while risking to lynch an innocent instead. I can't see how that would have been helpful to anybody but the wolves.

Now I'm really getting annoyed. Apparently everything I say or do is going to be suspicious to someone. Also, Pitch, this is crap. Eonwe wasn't that suspected, there was no reason for an Eonwe-wolf to self-destruct by fake-revealing on D2. Therefore, he was legit, his dream on Nog was legit, and at the time it was very likely (to me, apparently, but not to anyone else) that there was going to, again, be a second kill on N2, which I wanted to prevent. This bit about "wolves concocting an emergency strategy" is rubbish, as evidenced by the nine votes on Nog yesterday.

[Loslote]

As I said before, Eru definitely wasn't the most shining example of innocentness on Day 1, so if the calling was caused by the Acolyte, I'd be inclined to say that xe has taken the side of the village.

I actually thought this was a good point. The way I see it, there are only four reasons why the Acolyte killed Eruhen.

Option A: The Acolyte is a were-bear and kills every Night. This was proved false by the lack of a kill last Night.

Option B1: The Acolyte is a type of were-bear that kills every so often and wants the village (and spies) to all die. This is possible, and the only possible option where the Acolyte is definitively evil.

Option B2: The Acolyte still kills every so often, but xe doesn't necessarily want the village to all die. Xe killed Eruhen because xe thought Eruhen was a spy, and used his "every so often" kill to take out a potential spy, but was mistaken.

Option C: The Acolyte took the role of the person xe killed, and is now an ordo.

I won't go so far as to say it's more likely that the Acolyte isn't necessarily on our side, but it's not impossible, so I'm definitely not comfortable with writing the Acolyte off as evil as a matter of course.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

While going back and looking at Legate, I found this -

I actually suggest first NOT. Keep everyone (especially the WWs, therefore) in the dark until the end of the Day - or until most people really have to start voting, at least (=e.g. if people started to suspect you one Ordo heavily, Eönwë, you should stop them and reveal the person) - because if you don't say that yet, the WWs can be confused, we can possibly read more from their reactions... Nobody will kill you until the end of the Day, right, so no hurry with that.

- in regards to whether Eonwe should reveal his ordo. Now, my overall reaction to Legate is still that he seems extremely fishy, but this is actually an interesting point, and one that looks fairly innocent, actually.

The main reason it caught my eye, actually, is how Legate can post well-thought-out points like this and at the same time be as wildly off-kilter as he has been? My overall conclusion on this is while the point makes him look slightly better, the dichotomy makes him look worse.

[Eönwë]

Popping in for a second:

What does everyone think about me revealing the Ordo? When is the right time?

[Pitchwife]

Eonwe wasn't that suspected
Yes he was - skimming through yesterDay's posts, Zil, Legate, Greenie, Lommy, sally and myself all suspected him or had bad feelings about him at some point or the other; so it's understandable he felt under enough pressure to reveal, especially with a wolf in his bag. And looking at the conspiracy theories Nog improvised on the spot in his defense yesterDay, there's no telling what he might have come up with if given another Night to confer with his packmates. Maybe I'm overestimating the danger, but I wouldn't have wanted to risk it.

[Inziladun]

But don't you see that your reluctance to discuss the Acolyte could make people wonder whether you had any personal stakes in the matter? And your complete silence when Rikae challenged you on it could be seen as telling in its own way.

Maybe you aren't in fact the Acolyte, but don't you see how somebody could get the idea?

I guess you're right. I still don't see any reason to be fixated on the Acolyte instead of the Spies, though.


The way I see it, there are only four reasons why the Acolyte killed Eruhen.

Option A: The Acolyte is a were-bear and kills every Night. This was proved false by the lack of a kill last Night.

Option B1: The Acolyte is a type of were-bear that kills every so often and wants the village (and spies) to all die. This is possible, and the only possible option where the Acolyte is definitively evil.

Option B2: The Acolyte still kills every so often, but xe doesn't necessarily want the village to all die. Xe killed Eruhen because xe thought Eruhen was a spy, and used his "every so often" kill to take out a potential spy, but was mistaken.

Option C: The Acolyte took the role of the person xe killed, and is now an ordo.

I won't go so far as to say it's more likely that the Acolyte isn't necessarily on our side, but it's not impossible, so I'm definitely not comfortable with writing the Acolyte off as evil as a matter of course.

Maybe the Acolyte, being a "follower" or "learner" may make Option C the most likely, but it's still only speculation.

What does everyone think about me revealing the Ordo? When is the right time?

I'd say wait until the Day's half over, at least. People need to be observed without having that out just yet.

x/d with Pitch

[Boromir88]

Subtle? I thought I was being quite blatant. I don't trust the Acolyte, and I don't think anyone else should. Good try, Boro.


Subtle was a bad way of wording it.

I meant Nog was trying to scare us into not voting for him, by making some baseless ranting about the Acolyte being clearly aligned with the wolves. And therefor he was lynched, the Acolyte would attach to the 4 wolves and win the next day. Nog was using this to try to defend his innocence, but it's a completely irrational argument because if Nog was innocent there would be no way of knowing the Acolyte's allegiance.

Let me ask you, Shasta, if you are innocent. And say someone revealed as the seer you were a wolf. Obviously, you would know this person was lying. Would your reaction be to lynch the person who is obviously lying (and therefor must be a wolf), or argue some cracked up case about how the acolyte is clearly on the wolf-team and we will all lose if you're lynched? Surely you can see to try to scare us "Don't lynch me because you will die tomorrow" is extremely desperate.

And another thing. Your post that was basically 'you just look so suspicious Nog' was way more over-the-top than anything I've said thus far. The similarity between that and how I remember Glirdan being was too uncanny for me not to mention it. You're really reaching incredibly far here.

Sure. I was heavy handed in my Nog accusations yesterday, but you have to know that one must be over-the-top when dealing with Nog. No offense meant to him, but seriously, if you're going to have such a big ego shout "IT'S A DUO-TRIPLE-WOLF CONSPIRACY TO LYNCH ME LAST NIGHT!!" than you can't cry foul when I call bull crap on you. Seriously, I was reading Nog's reactions after Eonwe's initial case and kept shaking my head thinking "what makes you soooo important Nog that there is a massive pre-planned wolf strategy to push and get you lynched during?" Because, seriously, ask yourself. If you're a wolf, and you want to get rid of someone that desperately, you just night-kill the person. Really, wolves do not care who gets lynched as long as it's not one of them. So talk about an inflated ego when trying to make it seem like there is some wolf-pack conspiracy to get YOU above everyone else lynched.

For a moment, leave "Nog being Nog" out of it. And just look at his posts (even before Eonwe's reveal, but especially after too).

In 199. He launched some big duo-wolf conspiracy that G55 and Eonwe pre-planned a "lynch Nog" attack against him. Oh, sure he tried to make it look reasonable by saying stuff about only an "impatient soul" would believe this to be true. Yet, he spent 3 paragraphs essentially arguing, "this duo-wolf attack against me I don't believe it, but it soo tempting and compelling...oh but I don't believe it of course...oh but it's so tempting."

Now. If someone's reaction to suspicion is "Pity me, it's a conspiracy against me!" Would you say, looks more wolvy or innocent?

And in the posts of someone trying to defend him/herself, if he/she slings mud, would you say that looks more wolvy or innocent?. Don't try tell me Nog wasn't slinging mud, with this one:

I mean you who complain about Bom's lynch seem to forget that he could have been a wolf. Or you knew already he wasn't and then as wolves rant on us others who didn't know from supposed "moral-highground". *coughPitchieCough*

Come on. Talk about a cheap accusation, trying to use a "moral-highground" argument and wrap Pitch's name in cough. Oh, yes, real innocent that baselessly made junk accusation was :rolleyes:

And if a person's reaction to anyone suspecting them is "they're all wolves! All the wolves are launching a plan to bring me down"...again look more wolvy or innocent?

I really don't mean to be a prick about this, but you honestly can't tell me Nog was being reasonable yesterday. The best way for me to deal with it is to call bull crap when I see it, and fight fire with fire. It's abrasive, it's combative, if you're innocent I will apologize to you afterward, if not I think you deserve it. Can't take the heat, get out of my kitchen. :p

Now I'm really getting annoyed. Apparently everything I say or do is going to be suspicious to someone. Also, Pitch, this is crap. Eonwe wasn't that suspected, there was no reason for an Eonwe-wolf to self-destruct by fake-revealing on D2.

Hogwash. After Eonwe's post going after Nog, both Greenie and Legate immediately commented that Eonwe looked suspicious because he looked "evil" in the way he was painting Nog black. Greenie voted for him. Nog ran with that and pretty much parrotted Legate and Greenie. And I also believe Lommy (before Eonwe's reveal) was siding more with Nog being innocent than Eonwe, based on Eonwe's strongly-worded post suspecting Nog. So. Yeah. That's more bull-pucky.

Edit: crossed since Shasta's post 318

[Boromir88]

I guess you're right. I still don't see any reason to be fixated on the Acolyte instead of the Spies, though.


Aye, and that's what I'm trying to get at, just because I don't know what side the Acolyte's on, or really what the Acolyte's powers are, doesn't mean we have to "find acolyte and lynch him NOW" rampage.

It's very possible Nog and the wolves are right, but there's certainly no reason to believe it, let alone argue that it's "clear and obvious the Acolyte's bad." So, everyone, I'm serious here, who has the most to benefit from trying to redirect our lynch focus onto the acolyte? Come on. Say it all with me. :rolleyes:

[satansaloser2005]

Ahem. Did anyone consider that the Acolyte may in fact be a Nightly killer who targeted Steve (or someone else) last Night, and that Galadriel protected him/her/it/your mother? Or, perhaps, the wolves targeted our dear departed lass Lad, and the Acolyte targeted Steve/whomever else.

I mean really. When wolves don't get a kill, we all immediately assume that the ranger was doing their job, but when we have an unknown probable killing role in our midst, we forget that possibility? I'm a bit disappointed.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Why do none of you pause to think
That last Night there might be a link
Between Gal55
And Steve, who's alive
Despite the wolves' Nightly hijinx


EDIT: x'd since we were still on page 8 (hush, you lot, I've been busy)

[Inziladun]

Ahem. Did anyone consider that the Acolyte may in fact be a Nightly killer who targeted Steve (or someone else) last Night, and that Galadriel protected him/her/it/your mother? Or, perhaps, the wolves targeted our dear departed lass Lad, and the Acolyte targeted Steve/whomever else.

I mean really. When wolves don't get a kill, we all immediately assume that the ranger was doing their job, but when we have an unknown probable killing role in our midst, we forget that possibility? I'm a bit disappointed.

The narrative appears to support only one attempted and completed kill. I don't see any evidence two people were targeted.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Boro, your post is based entirely around the fact that you think I was saying Nog was being reasonable (thus implying that I was defending him.) If you look back, you'll see that I fully believed Eonwe that Nog was a wolf - I simply thought I would try and prevent someone I thought had killing powers from killing again. What's better, two kills per night or one? You're going far, far out of your way to misrepresent me here and I don't like it one bit.

And I'm not "fixated" on the Acolyte. There's no "rampage". I keep bringing up the subject because NO ONE ELSE WILL. Seriously, everyone but me thus far has basically said "oh well we don't know the Acolyte isn't playing for the good team" and has basically left it there and I think that's wrong. The Acolyte doesn't count for innocents or wolves in the tally - how likely is it the Acolyte can only win by himself? Answer: pretty likely.

But fine. If the only response I'm going to get is "Shasta's suspicious for talking about the Acolyte" then I'll drop the subject completely. I won't even say "told you so" when the Acolyte wins by themselves. :rolleyes:

[Shastanis Althreduin]

The narrative appears to support only one attempted and completed kill. I don't see any evidence two people were targeted.

The narrative for N1 appears to support that Eruhen was killed by someone, not modkilled.

Oh, right. My bad. Shutting up.

[Inziladun]

And I'm not "fixated" on the Acolyte. There's no "rampage". I keep bringing up the subject because NO ONE ELSE WILL. Seriously, everyone but me thus far has basically said "oh well we don't know the Acolyte isn't playing for the good team" and has basically left it there and I think that's wrong. The Acolyte doesn't count for innocents or wolves in the tally - how likely is it the Acolyte can only win by himself? Answer: pretty likely.

But fine. If the only response I'm going to get is "Shasta's suspicious for talking about the Acolyte" then I'll drop the subject completely. I won't even say "told you so" when the Acolyte wins by themselves. :rolleyes:

But you're doing more than talking about the Acolyte: you're advocating voting for an Acolyte suspect in lieu of seeking a Spy toDay.

If the Acolyte truly has no team allegiance at this point, xe's going to be a lot harder to find than the Spies. We have a lot more to go on where the latter are concerned. And they are the greater threat.

The narrative for N1 appears to support that Eruhen was killed by someone, not modkilled.

I was talking about last Night.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

But you're doing more than talking about the Acolyte: you're advocating voting for an Acolyte suspect in lieu of seeking a Spy toDay.

If the Acolyte truly has no team allegiance at this point, xe's going to be a lot harder to find than the Spies. We have a lot more to go on where the latter are concerned. And they are the greater threat.
I'm aware of that. Which is why I'm still looking for spies/wolves. But I still think the Acolyte is a greater threat than people are making him out to be. I suppose it's a bit like the cobbler debate - do you lynch a known cobbler, or do you keep hunting for wolves?


I was talking about last Night.

I'm aware. I was being snarky and sarcastic. I apologize.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay - on general evaluation of what's happened toDay, I am growing steadily more suspicious of Shasta. It's not about his way of arguing, which is faulty in many ways (like many have already mentioned - e.g. the "Eonwe was not suspected yesterDay enough..." I can vouch for myself that I indeed had suspected him, and I recall there were many others) - that does not necessarily say anything about guilt; but mostly the fact that he had pushed for a second lynch going at the same point yesterDay with Steve, therefore threatening to threaten him (to make a double lynch).
Pitch also sums this up quite nicely from only slightly different angle:

That said, I must say I don't like Shasta's suggestion from yesterDay to lynch the putative Acolyte before Nog, because it would have left Nog's role, and thus the truth of Eönwë's dream, uncertain for another Day, giving the wolves time to concoct an emergency strategy, while risking to lynch an innocent instead. I can't see how that would have been helpful to anybody but the wolves.

With the arguing, it's not as much about the content, but the sort of stubborn form - or, in fact, there is also one of the argued-over issues: the Acolyte thing - still trying to make us convince that the Acolyte must be evil, which is not necessarily true by any means.

Not sure what to make of Boro, I am currently at loss about the whole subject, and he's incredibly wordy which makes it difficult to find any orientation. I still need to make up my mind about Inzil, what makes him better in my book is first his reaction to Eönwë - I think a Wolf would at least have tried whether he could not have been lynched (or mistrusted), the complete unquestioned trust wasn't also nothing special, of course - might have been that Inzil knew (as a Wolf) that Steve is innocent and thus knew to trust him... but then again also some of his latter posting does not look as bad. So I am not sure, sort of undecided about him currently.

Generally I agree with Pitch on a lot of things, only this (in regards to Inzil):
But don't you see that your reluctance to discuss the Acolyte could make people wonder whether you had any personal stakes in the matter? And your complete silence when Rikae challenged you on it could be seen as telling in its own way.

Maybe you aren't in fact the Acolyte, but don't you see how somebody could get the idea?
I think this is a bit of a stretch. If the question of Acolyte keeps being pushed on Zil (I don't recall even where exactly it started, but in any case, it hasn't left him since then), then of course it gets annoying and you don't want to talk about it. So this particular point... not really.

Now I'm really getting annoyed. Apparently everything I say or do is going to be suspicious to someone. Also, Pitch, this is crap. Eonwe wasn't that suspected, there was no reason for an Eonwe-wolf to self-destruct by fake-revealing on D2. Therefore, he was legit, his dream on Nog was legit, and at the time it was very likely (to me, apparently, but not to anyone else) that there was going to, again, be a second kill on N2, which I wanted to prevent. This bit about "wolves concocting an emergency strategy" is rubbish, as evidenced by the nine votes on Nog yesterday.

The main reason it caught my eye, actually, is how Legate can post well-thought-out points like this and at the same time be as wildly off-kilter as he has been? My overall conclusion on this is while the point makes him look slightly better, the dichotomy makes him look worse.
Isn't it rather the sign of an innocent to have conflicting opinions about something? I mean, innocents, in contrary to some others, have no information whom to trust. I suspected Eönwë before, but I tried to post with the best intentions in mind, just as now. If you are following a certain pattern you set for yourself like a Wolf (e.g. "I will suspect person X, then I switch to person Y, then I will try to make the village lynch Z"), you usually post very "consistently" in the sense that all the time, the main intention sort of "behind" your behavior can be tracked as: "Yes, he wanted to lynch X." With innocent, the intention behind all the behavior should not be "He wanted to lynch X or Y", but "He wanted to do what was the best for the village from his current perspective." That's what I am doing. That's what I also often get suspected for.

Popping in for a second:

What does everyone think about me revealing the Ordo? When is the right time?
What I suggested previously: sometime late evening European time. Before you go to sleep, because then Americans will vote. Some people might vote earlier (Greenie often votes early, I have noticed), so might be even let's say in a couple of hours. Your call. I suggest letting post at least once most of the people first, but then whenever.

Maybe the Acolyte, being a "follower" or "learner" may make Option C the most likely, but it's still only speculation.
That option actually sounded very much likely to me. I'm quite willing to consider that as the real role of the Acolyte. Quite a lot, in fact. Because it makes perfect sense.

EDIT: x-ed with Sally and onwards

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ahem. Did anyone consider that the Acolyte may in fact be a Nightly killer who targeted Steve (or someone else) last Night, and that Galadriel protected him/her/it/your mother? Or, perhaps, the wolves targeted our dear departed lass Lad, and the Acolyte targeted Steve/whomever else.

I mean really. When wolves don't get a kill, we all immediately assume that the ranger was doing their job, but when we have an unknown probable killing role in our midst, we forget that possibility? I'm a bit disappointed.

Sort of a stretch, I think (if I understood it correctly what you mean). I wouldn't overcombinate things that much. Aside from that, what I said at the end of the post above.

[Boromir88]

Boro, your post is based entirely around the fact that you think I was saying Nog was being reasonable (thus implying that I was defending him.) If you look back, you'll see that I fully believed Eonwe that Nog was a wolf - I simply thought I would try and prevent someone I thought had killing powers from killing again. What's better, two kills per night or one? You're going far, far out of your way to misrepresent me here and I don't like it one bit.

And I'm not "fixated" on the Acolyte. There's no "rampage". I keep bringing up the subject because NO ONE ELSE WILL. Seriously, everyone but me thus far has basically said "oh well we don't know the Acolyte isn't playing for the good team" and has basically left it there and I think that's wrong. The Acolyte doesn't count for innocents or wolves in the tally - how likely is it the Acolyte can only win by himself? Answer: pretty likely.

But fine. If the only response I'm going to get is "Shasta's suspicious for talking about the Acolyte" then I'll drop the subject completely. I won't even say "told you so" when the Acolyte wins by themselves. :rolleyes:

I suppose it could be one of those difference of opinion/playing style moments. I just can't see why there should be so much worry created about an unknown role. And the fact that Nog did it yesterday put me "wolves are trying to make the acolyte the focus and lynch him/her." Sure, I may be hopefully assuming the acolyte is on our side, but that to me looks like a much safer assumption than your assumption that he/she is a dangerous threat.

If you're right about the acolyte though, we still have the wolves to deal with and there really isn't a reason to believe that the Acolyte gets to kill each night, so I'm not seeing why I should feel more of a threat from the acolyte than from the 3 remaining wolves.

Anyway, I'm at least going to take a break, because I see I might be wrong with assuming only wolves are trying to focus our attention on the acolyte.

Edit: crossed since Inzil's post 330

[Shastanis Althreduin]

but mostly the fact that he had pushed for a second lynch going at the same point yesterDay with Steve, therefore threatening to threaten him (to make a double lynch).

I already pointed out how much rubbish this point is. In fact, since I voted Inzil, I'd be very interested to hear how I supposedly threatened Eonwe yesterday.

I don't want to think I'm basically OMGUSing Legate here - I might be, certainly, but he's seemed completely (not a bit, not some, pretty much completely) off to me since the beginning.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I already pointed out how much rubbish this point is. In fact, since I voted Inzil, I'd be very interested to hear how I supposedly threatened Eonwe yesterday.
Maybe I did not word it very well this time - but you were offering ground for double-lynch in any case, be the other subject Eonwe or Zil. In any case, it would still not be good for the village - only leave the uncertainity for the future. And also (I don't know how exactly was the voting around that time you were proposing that, or when you voted), if there were still some Wolves left to vote after you, with enough numbers, they could still do a double-lynch in that way. That's of course probably unlikely, but the general point is that splitting the vote (especially for somebody completely random) was not exactly helpful in that situation.

I don't want to think I'm basically OMGUSing Legate here - I might be, certainly, but he's seemed completely (not a bit, not some, pretty much completely) off to me since the beginning.
How nice. I, on the other hand, thought initially you were pretty good.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Maybe I did not word it very well this time - but you were offering ground for double-lynch in any case, be the other subject Eonwe or Zil. In any case, it would still not be good for the village - only leave the uncertainity for the future. And also (I don't know how exactly was the voting around that time you were proposing that, or when you voted), if there were still some Wolves left to vote after you, with enough numbers, they could still do a double-lynch in that way. That's of course probably unlikely, but the general point is that splitting the vote (especially for somebody completely random) was not exactly helpful in that situation.


How nice. I, on the other hand, thought initially you were pretty good.

Wrong. I never said I wanted to lynch Eonwe, in fact I never mentioned him in the slightest. Why would I want to lynch the Seer, in any case? Yes, I mentioned that a double lynch of Inzil and Nog might be a good idea, after someone mentioned it (I'd originally forgotten about double lynches at all), but how would that have "left uncertainty"? Nog would have been just as dead. Your other point is still not very good - I already gave you the numbers to prove that even if it had been possible for the wolves to double-lynch Eonwe, they all would have been revealed after that and the game would be over! See, Legate, you keep trying to make this into a reason that I'm suspicious and it's just not working. That's what I mean about how completely off you are. I didn't mean to insult you or anything, if that's what you thought (as your last comment leads me to believe.)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Wrong. I never said I wanted to lynch Eonwe, in fact I never mentioned him in the slightest. Why would I want to lynch the Seer, in any case? Yes, I mentioned that a double lynch of Inzil and Nog might be a good idea, after someone mentioned it (I'd originally forgotten about double lynches at all), but how would that have "left uncertainty"? Nog would have been just as dead. Your other point is still not very good - I already gave you the numbers to prove that even if it had been possible for the wolves to double-lynch Eonwe, they all would have been revealed after that and the game would be over! See, Legate, you keep trying to make this into a reason that I'm suspicious and it's just not working. That's what I mean about how completely off you are. I didn't mean to insult you or anything, if that's what you thought (as your last comment leads me to believe.)
Not taking it as insult, never mind then. But okay, then tell me clearly: first you did not plan to make it double-lynch, then you did, so can you go over it once again - what exactly had you intended? Did you intend to make a double-lynch (of Zil and Nog), then? Why exactly, i.e. what good would it be? Also, how did you hope to achieve that? What if one got one more vote than the other? What would you think if only Nog was lynched? What would you think if only Zil was lynched? Had you considered those two possibilities at all? Answering shortly, briefly in points is fine, if I can ask you for that...

And anyway, yes, I am willing to see also something more - something else - from you to make me evaluate you better. E.g. if you list briefly whom do you currently suspect and why... or whom do you trust the most and why...

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I sense the beginnings of a witchhunt, but fine, I'll answer.
But okay, then tell me clearly: first you did not plan to make it double-lynch, then you did, so can you go over it once again, what did you intend?
I had originally forgotten about the fact that we could double lynch - I wanted Zil gone over Nog because I felt both were bad for the innocents, but killing Inzil would have dropped the nightkills from two to one (I still thought the Acolyte was going to kill the next night.) Then, after I voted, the idea of a double lynch was mentioned, which I thought was a fine idea - kill both with one lynch.

Sidenote, Legate - it was not going to be very easy to make a double-lynch all by my lonesome, as you're implying. I knew Nog had four or five votes by then and I knew no one else had voted Inzil, but I figured it was worth a shot, and if I didn't manage it then Nog would be lynched anyway and that'd be one baddie down.
Did you intend to make a double-lynch (of Zil and Nog), then?
Had it been possible, yes. Once Lommy voted right after me, though, I didn't really think it was possible. Still, since there wasn't a vote tally up and I wasn't sure how many more votes were coming in, I felt like there was still a chance and I urged people to consider it.
Why exactly, i.e. what good would it be?
Seriously? We'd be getting rid of a wolf and the Acolyte, who I thought (and still think) was dangerous.
Also, how did you hope to achieve that?
If you're asking me this, then you're implying there wasn't a way to achieve that, which means your point about me endangering Eonwe, is, like I said, pretty leaky. That said, I'll answer - it would have required the cooperation of the people after me to vote; like I said, once Lommy voted I figured the chances were slim, but there was no harm in trying.
What if one got one more vote than the other? What would you think if only Nog was lynched? What would you think if only Zil was lynched? Had you considered those two possibilities at all?
What about it? In my view, either way we were getting rid of someone who was a danger to the village. If Nog was lynched, fine - we'd gotten rid of a wolf. If Zil went instead, that was fine too - that'd be the end of the Acolyte and we could lynch Nog the next day; if Eonwe had managed to find another wolf with his dream, we could just double-lynch them, so we weren't even losing any time.

Who do I suspect? You, currently. Boro, because I think he was bussing Nog. Inzil I still suspect of Acolyte-ism, but I don't think he's a wolf, unless his "lynch me instead of Eonwe" yesterday was just a very clever wolf-front. I still have some suspicions of Lommy as well.

[A Little Green]

A question that isn't even rhetorical but a serious one I'd like an answer for: why the blazes is everyone discussing the flipping acolyte? Has everyone forgotten we have wolves to catch? A dead wolf whose relationships with people we could go through? Yes, we shouldn't forget about the acolyte, but debating about her/him to this extent makes no sense. Not when we really have more substantial food for thought and discussion.

/rant

I'm going to continue the vote analysis I started earlier. Back soon.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

If you're asking me this, then you're implying there wasn't a way to achieve that, which means your point about me endangering Eonwe, is, like I said, pretty leaky. That said, I'll answer - it would have required the cooperation of the people after me to vote; like I said, once Lommy voted I figured the chances were slim, but there was no harm in trying.

Wait a second and stop presuming. I was asking exactly and only what I had asked - because it is NOT easy to achieve a double-lynch. I assumed there WAS a way to achieve that according to you, otherwise you wouldn't have proposed it, obviously. Therefore, I wanted to hear about it.

These were only questions, and completely "freely" phrased - a mere civilized way to ask you about something. Yet you are answering with rather defensive and sort of jumpy way at some moments. In contrary to what you say, I have *no* intention to lynch you for the sake of itself. But at least on first sight, I can't help to think you are making stuff up, or clutching to some pre-made points of your own.

I had originally forgotten about the fact that we could double lynch - I wanted Zil gone over Nog because I felt both were bad for the innocents, but killing Inzil would have dropped the nightkills from two to one (I still thought the Acolyte was going to kill the next night.) Then, after I voted, the idea of a double lynch was mentioned, which I thought was a fine idea - kill both with one lynch.

This in particular sounds rather fabricated. And the whole Acolyte thing of yours is just weird - I mean, if you are innocent, then I suggest checking whether you aren't simply paranoid. I understand it might be good to talk about the Acolyte if nobody seems to worry about it, but nowhere was written that Acolyte is evil. Nowhere was written that even if he was, he's killing every Night. (Yes, I know, no need to repeat your thoughts on the matter, I've read them several times already, just stating this for the sake of completion.) Nowhere was written that even if all that was so, Zil was the Acolyte. I.e.: Your idea - as you claim it was - of making a double-lynch, or lynching Zil over Nog, was based on the possibility that Zil was the Acolyte, on top of that evil Acolyte, on top of that that the Acolyte is killing people and therefore it is better to kill him than Nog. My motto is "never tell me the odds" and I am against all maths and all that, but seriously, the chance that even if you were right about the role that you would actually even lynch the real Acolyte was far lesser than that you would help the village to achieve something by lynching Nog. Also, if you indeed are innocent and interested in the good of the village - had it never occured to you that the game would be imbalanced like Angband if there was just another evil every-Night-killer? Even if he were to choose his side in the beginning, such a role would really be completely over the top.

I think we have (and you have also answered about it to others many times) been talking this over many times, so I think we can drop the subject, there is probably nothing much new to add anymore (unless, Shasta, you have something that you haven't said yet to comment on what I just said, of course). But it helped me to hear all your arguments in some clearer order, and the basic impression I have about you right now is that of being somewhat suspicious. Based on that if I compare the possibility that you sincerely were thinking the thing you are now telling us you were thinking, and the possibility that you were thinking something completely different and are just making this all up now that you had to answer about it to other people, I must say the other one sounds far more probable and logical. Of course, the question is then what did you really think in case what you are saying is fabricated - since I am not sure if, as a Wolf, you'd believe you could pull that off (saving Nog, that is, or evening the odds by double-lynching him in case Zil is innocent). Of course that's already second rather daring move you'd do in this game (after Day 1 Bom lynch), so if you believed you could pull that off again? Anyway, will be looking at what else you are going to post toDay.

I would like to also take a look at other people, but the best would be to see somebody else post as well...

EDIT: x-ed with Greenie

[Thinlómien]

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH. I just lost a long post I had written, because Internet Explorer and my dad's computer suck. Not bolding any names anymore because it's difficult with this sad excuse of a touchpad/mouse.

To summarise: I suck. This game sucks. Couldn't go much worse, at least from my personal pov, if you think about who I have trusted and suspected so far. Serious rethinking in order, like I predicted late yesterDay.

I don't understand why 80% of toDay has been just discussion of the acolyte, and the only looks into Nog's posts have been by our seer. What's wrong with you people?

Boro and Zil look pretty innocent to me now, Legate and Shasta are weird (that obsession on the acolyte is not natural even for Shasta who can be a little single-minded at times :p), Pitch is under my radar and I have a vague bad feeling about Pom. I will need to reread and think more, maybe make a list.

ps. Okay, I bolded, but crappily. I don't understand how Nog can use this touchpad daily without going mad...


edit: xed with Greenie and Legate

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Nogrod on Lommy

Day 1, Nogrod barely mentions Lommy at all. He mentions her in passing in a post on Pitch and another on Lottie, then near the end of the day he says this -
Well, a fair 1½ hours until the DL. I'll try to make sense of a few things (Lommy-suspicion and Inzil's behaviour at least).
and then in #122 he defends her.
So Lommy "stretches points", uses the word "weird" too often and "defends Pitch" (which is then corrected as a misunderstanding)? Her guilt seems only too obvious...

I mean really?
What he's defending her against here is the votes she got from Eruhen (he calls it "bandwagoning in major scale" and G55 ("possible bandwagon".) It's interesting to note that most of what this post is about, seemingly, is less defense of Lommy and more a changing of his attitudes toward G55, who he started the Day very trusting of. The two (defense of Lommy and early defense of G55) actually look rather similar.

And that's all Nogrod says about Lommy on Day 1.

Day 2, Nog's #168:
Well, anyway, you actually do quote my post where I explain my change of heart. I mean the sudden Lommywagon did raise some eyebrows and when I read your post where you explained your... well what could it be, change of heart (? ) to suddenly suspect Lommy when she started gathering suspicion... well that made me suspect you - and thus to reconsider the innocence of your outburst as well.

It was not only the fact that you suddenly jumped on the fast-emerging Lommy-train, but the way you did it. (Explained in my #122)

Heh, I saw Lommy posted about you confidence of being alive, to write such a strong "defence by attack" I'd say, so I'm not going to say anything more about it.
Again, more a justification of his suspicion of G55 than anything about Lommy. The only thing a little bit interesting here is that last comment, which is basically a tacit endorsement of what Lommy said earlier. I suppose it could be a way to subtly reinforce good vibes about Lommy, but it's such a small thing that I doubt it.
I was willing to discuss with the people around then (about 15 minutes before the DL or something) of the possibilities between Bom, Boro and G55 but had to take a phone-call from my colleague and when I came back people were already voting for Bom which kind of made it futile to vote differently as I had nothing against Lommy.

Just go and check.
Here he's answering Pitch about the Bom lynch, and mentions that he had no reason to vote for Lommy as he had nothing against her. And he hasn't, so that's okay.

Nog's #201 is in answer to a post of Lommy's from earlier, and he's very neutral about it, just basically responding to something she said rather than attacking her or defending her at all.

A short quote from #228:
I did change my mind because of the way you suddenly jumped on Lommy (there was a train emerging there) - and especially the way you did it (you underlined it was the substance of her posts but never said anything about it yourself).
Again in response to G55. Mentions again that Lommy was going to be bandwagoned.

Lommy!: I think she acts like her normal self - which is to say quite little. She talks sense and I have nothing against her thus far - nor any reasons to trust her over the careful reasonableness -point.
This is what Nog had to say about Lommy from his list post, #234, right after Eonwe's reveal. Again, very neutral, nothing for or against.

And then he doesn't mention her again after that.

So, conclusions - well, there aren't really very many to be drawn here, to be honest. Nog barely mentioned Lommy, and when he did he was either kinda defensive or completely neutral. I suppose it could be a giant case of distancing, but there's not really anything to support that.

[Thinlómien]

Innocentish
Greenie
Boro
Zil

Unsure
Lottie - not too alarming anymore but kind of under my radar

Weird or vaguely bad feeling
Sally - I got a bit of bad vibes from something she posted, but I don't remember what
Legate
Shasta
Pom
Pitch

Suspicious
no-one

...great. I just made the headings and started throwing the people under them, and this is what I came up with. I don't really like the lack of real suspects, and I have the feeling I'm being fooled. If I had to guess, I would say the remaining wolves are Pom, Pitch/Sally and Legate/Shasta (both of them can't be innocently weird).


edit: xed with Shasta

[Loslote]

After Legate's weird flip-out over Steve not revealing the Ordo yesterDay, and his dogged (and, as it seems to me at least, flimsy and grasping-at-strawsy) pursuit of Shasta (who's seemed logical and genuine, if not always right, to me this whole game), I'm very much inclined to vote him toDay. Pitchie also seems off to me, but I'm less convinced of his guilt than of Legate's.

Obviously Steve is innocent, but Lommy, Sally, and Nate also seem pretty good to me, and I'm leaning innocent on Boro, Shasta, and Zil (though hardly definitively yet!). I have no read whatsoever on Greenie, and if there's anyone else playing, I've gotten so little a read on them that I've forgotten them entirely.

Obviously, this means that one of the people in my second category are evil. For now I'm thinking it'd be more likely to be Boro and Shasta - I'm more confident about the first three I mentioned, and Zil and Greenie, for some reason, don't strike me as all that evil this game (of course, they also don't strike me as all that innocent, but that's why they're in the categories they're in).

[Thinlómien]

I'm happy Shasta's analysing Nog's interactions with people and I'm aware this will sound really weird coming from me - but I think me and Nogrod's interactions look worse than Shasta makes them look (let's face it - you could call it even sort of co-operation, and that's my mistake), so the fact that Shasta takes them so lightly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't think an innocent who logically cannot know I'm innocent would be able to read me and Nogrod's interactions with such lack of suspicion to my direction, whatever the final conclusion. Just sayin'.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

These were only questions, and completely "freely" phrased - a mere civilized way to ask you about something. Yet you are answering with rather defensive and sort of jumpy way at some moments. In contrary to what you say, I have *no* intention to lynch you for the sake of itself. But at least on first sight, I can't help to think you are making stuff up, or clutching to some pre-made points of your own.
"Defensive." "Jumpy." "Making stuff up." What did I tell you? Witchhunt. :rolleyes: All me answering your questions did was give you more fodder for your witchhunt against me, because all you've mentioned are opinions that are designed to look like hard suspicions. Look at this -
This in particular sounds rather fabricated.
(in regards to this-)
I had originally forgotten about the fact that we could double lynch - I wanted Zil gone over Nog because I felt both were bad for the innocents, but killing Inzil would have dropped the nightkills from two to one (I still thought the Acolyte was going to kill the next night.) Then, after I voted, the idea of a double lynch was mentioned, which I thought was a fine idea - kill both with one lynch.
Now, you say this sounds fabricated. Obviously there's nothing I can say to that, since it's not fabricated. But it gives you an easy way to continue to suspect me, doesn't it?

I'm going to skip over all the bit about the Acolyte because it's clear that, whether you're innocent or evil, we just flat are not going to agree where he's concerned.

Based on that if I compare the possibility that you sincerely were thinking the thing you are now telling us you were thinking, and the possibility that you were thinking something completely different and are just making this all up now that you had to answer about it to other people, I must say the other one sounds far more probable and logical.
This is just the same point, restated in order to make it look like you have a bigger argument against me than you already do. Also, I said basically the same thing earlier in the day when I replied to Pom, so there's further proof I didn't make it all up just now.

[A Little Green]

Legate is weird. His reaction to Steve's reveal has, I think, been discussed in sufficient length already. In addition to that, the following made my radars beep:
Isn't it rather the sign of an innocent to have conflicting opinions about something?I know it might be just an odd phrasing, but it looks like his "conflicting opinions" were something he had thought were supposed to be the sign of an innocent, if you get what I mean.

I'm very undecided about Lommy, who's so confused it looks both very innocentish (a wolf would, surely, have more than enough material by now to legitly suspect anyone she wished, or else keep us distracted with any number of unrelated topics) and evil (I could see a Lommywolf refraining from accusing people on the grounds of being confused; playing it safe, in other words). I'm more inclined to lean towards the first scenario, though.

I remember thinking yesterDay that Nog's wolvery makes Boro look shinier; don't remember what that referred to but I'm sure I'll find it. :rolleyes:

I'm still halfway through a cursory re-read of the entire thread, will try to get that done in a few and see if something catches my eye.


EDIT: x-ed with Lommy and Shasta

[Eönwë]

Now what if we had a Legate, Shasta and Boro wolf team?
And all this argument is just to cause mass confusion.
Unlikely but just another (not-so) crazy theory to think about.

[Pomegranate]

Okay.

First of all, I'm still pretty sure that Legate's a wolf, to such degree that if he gets an innocent lynched toDay, I'd feel he's played very impressively. Because even if you suspected Eonwe however badly, when he revealed, an ordinary person would've at least looked back and checked the facts before thinking he's wrong for all. And because this has been very clear to me from last night onwards, I wouldn't actually be surprised if this - how should we call it? - debate of Legate and Shasta's was a wolfy plan of making Shasta look good when Legate was lynched. Because, as Lommy says, it is weird.

Other than that, I'll need to reread. I'm having trouble concentrating, but I feel that some of the non-suspected ones (sally, Greenie and to be objective, myself) would deserve some looking into. By making noise, players like Nog and Legate (Shasta? Boro (though that wolf-on-wolf would also be somewhat impressive)? Lommy?) give them an easy place to hide.

And a sidenote: I wouldn't be surprised if Inzil was the acolyte, looking back. However, unless the acolyte starts killing again, I think we should kill the spies first. That's the name of the game. I have heard all the arguments about this and don't think I need more evaluation, just wanted to make my opinion clear.

edit. x/ed since Lommy's #342

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm happy Shasta's analysing Nog's interactions with people and I'm aware this will sound really weird coming from me - but I think me and Nogrod's interactions look worse than Shasta makes them look (let's face it - you could call it even sort of co-operation, and that's my mistake), so the fact that Shasta takes them so lightly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't think an innocent who logically cannot know I'm innocent would be able to read me and Nogrod's interactions with such lack of suspicion to my direction, whatever the final conclusion. Just sayin'.

Now I'm really getting annoyed. Apparently everything I say or do is going to be suspicious to someone.

*throws hands up*

I'm done talking for now. I'm making myself far too easy for the wolves to lynch, at this point.

[Boromir88]

A question that isn't even rhetorical but a serious one I'd like an answer for: why the blazes is everyone discussing the flipping acolyte? Has everyone forgotten we have wolves to catch? A dead wolf whose relationships with people we could go through? Yes, we shouldn't forget about the acolyte, but debating about her/him to this extent makes no sense. Not when we really have more substantial food for thought and discussion.

/rant

I'm going to continue the vote analysis I started earlier. Back soon.

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH. I just lost a long post I had written, because Internet Explorer and my dad's computer suck. Not bolding any names anymore because it's difficult with this sad excuse of a touchpad/mouse.

To summarise: I suck. This game sucks. Couldn't go much worse, at least from my personal pov, if you think about who I have trusted and suspected so far. Serious rethinking in order, like I predicted late yesterDay.


Ok. Both of you, inhale? Yes? Exhale? K. Thank you.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Red zone:

no one in particular

Orange zone:

Shasta

??? Zil ??? (might also go to grey zone)

Grey zone:

Boro - see above: I have no clue about him right now. Remembering from before, there is the "too nice..." thing from the first Days, but also the thing that I had made mental note about, which I had forgotten of course (and don't want to look it up right now in the middle of writing the post), but basically that there were some things he had said which sounded genuine

A Little Green - she didn't say anything suspicious or anything, but lately some stuff... I'm wondering about her suspicion of Steve yesterDay (which had its reasons, of course, even I thought that - but of course she might also have figured out the determined way of pursuing Nog was a knowing Seer pursuing a fellow Wolf - I mean, if she were a Wolf, she WOULD know the suspicion was spot on, and she could have figured out that such a determined pursuit was coming from Seer, and might have wanted to try to get him lynched... hmm, now that I thought about this, I might actually put her even to the orange zone cathegory...)

Yellow zone:

Pitch - does not sound like evil

Pomegranate - I've been trusing her all the time, the reason I just moved her into the yellow zone is that a few things she said lately made me uncertain, but maybe it's just that I got subconsciously unnerved by her suspicion of me.

Lommy - sounds better lately

Green zone:

Lottie

Sally

White zone:

Steve

Well - given, that there are still three Wolves, somebody has to be them, right? Hmm...

EDIT: x-ed with a host since Lottie

[A Little Green]

I'm happy Shasta's analysing Nog's interactions with people and I'm aware this will sound really weird coming from me - but I think me and Nogrod's interactions look worse than Shasta makes them look (let's face it - you could call it even sort of co-operation, and that's my mistake), so the fact that Shasta takes them so lightly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't think an innocent who logically cannot know I'm innocent would be able to read me and Nogrod's interactions with such lack of suspicion to my direction, whatever the final conclusion. Just sayin'.If this comes from a Lommywolf, my hat's off to her. Made me feel better about her, anyway; I don't think a wolf would come up with a point like that (objectively evaluating one's own communication with a packmate is pretty hard) and if she would, it'd take some guts to say it aloud. In short, feeling a tad better about Lommy.


EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Loslote]

Now what if we had a Legate, Shasta and Boro wolf team?
And all this argument is just to cause mass confusion.
Unlikely but just another (not-so) crazy theory to think about.

I'd be willing to consider the option of a Legate-Shasta-?Pitch? pack, at any rate.

EDIT: xed with a bunch

[A Little Green]

A Little Green - she didn't say anything suspicious or anything, but lately some stuff... I'm wondering about her suspicion of Steve yesterDay (which had its reasons, of course, even I thought that - but of course she might also have figured out the determined way of pursuing Nog was a knowing Seer pursuing a fellow Wolf - I mean, if she were a Wolf, she WOULD know the suspicion was spot on, and she could have figured out that such a determined pursuit was coming from Seer, and might have wanted to try to get him lynched... hmm, now that I thought about this, I might actually put her even to the orange zone cathegory...)Err - you do know that the exact same thing applies to yourself as well? The only difference between us with regards to Steve's case against Nog was that I had to vote and go to sleep immediately after it.

[Pomegranate]

Err - you do know that the exact same thing applies to yourself as well? The only difference between us with regards to Steve's case against Nog was that I had to vote and go to sleep immediately after it.

Exactly, Greenie. Which is actually pretty funny since Legate has gotten all the suspicion (at least mine) until now. I could do some looking at your posts.

[Thinlómien]

Eönwë and Lottie - after what we've seen toDay, do you really believe Shasta and Legate could be in the same wolf team?

Btw Eönwë since not many people answered your question, I agree with whoever it was (Zil?) who said the best time to reveal the dream would be before European bedtime today.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm happy Shasta's analysing Nog's interactions with people and I'm aware this will sound really weird coming from me - but I think me and Nogrod's interactions look worse than Shasta makes them look (let's face it - you could call it even sort of co-operation, and that's my mistake), so the fact that Shasta takes them so lightly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't think an innocent who logically cannot know I'm innocent would be able to read me and Nogrod's interactions with such lack of suspicion to my direction, whatever the final conclusion. Just sayin'.
Hmm, in fact, this indeed made me somehow suspicious about Lommy again. It's not just the fact that it would look weird (because I know you do that), nor the fact that you said we might think it looks weird (because I know you do that as well), but also the elaboration on it and devoting one whole post to it... especially if Shasta turns out to be Wolf (and if now he is under some suspicion), this might also be a slight way to sort of suspect him (and in case he is lynched, to show that you are separed from him).

"Defensive." "Jumpy." "Making stuff up." What did I tell you? Witchhunt. :rolleyes: All me answering your questions did was give you more fodder for your witchhunt against me, because all you've mentioned are opinions that are designed to look like hard suspicions. Look at this -

(in regards to this-)

Now, you say this sounds fabricated. Obviously there's nothing I can say to that, since it's not fabricated. But it gives you an easy way to continue to suspect me, doesn't it?
I was afraid you will say something like this, and therefore I am not talking anymore to you about this, because you are convinced I am evilly trying to frame you, which I said already last time I am not. So until you are willing to reevaluate and reconsiderate the possibility that it is not so, the debate makes no sense. If you have pre-determined opinions, you can hardly believe you are deciding objectively (or, as much "objectively" as one can). That is not asking you to stop suspecting me, by any means, but merely appeal to bring that to your attention that it might not be as you project - at least on the level of discussion. If you are innocent, I am warning you that you are having a tunnel vision in that I am writing everything with some evil intent. Your unwillingness to acknowledge this thus far (despite me telling this to you already before, only in different words) makes me only support my belief. And no, that is not predetermined answer (as you would most likely say based on how you've been reacting this far), but direct response based on this and only this reaction of yours. In case you are a Wolf (which I now believe), it of course makes perfect sense, because you try to disqualify suspicions against yourself (or pass it on me, if you can, even better).

First of all, I'm still pretty sure that Legate's a wolf, to such degree that if he gets an innocent lynched toDay, I'd feel he's played very impressively. Because even if you suspected Eonwe however badly, when he revealed, an ordinary person would've at least looked back and checked the facts before thinking he's wrong for all.
I did it, but only later. Do you remember everything e.g. I have written in the game? Probably not. If you are indeed suspecting me heavily and if I now told you that I am the Seer, how would you react? Probably the first reaction would be diselief at least. Maybe then after reading some old posts and seeing them in different light, you would reconsider. But if you wrote your first post without looking back, who knows how it would look, right?

And because this has been very clear to me from last night onwards, I wouldn't actually be surprised if this - how should we call it? - debate of Legate and Shasta's was a wolfy plan of making Shasta look good when Legate was lynched. Because, as Lommy says, it is weird.
For further reference: If Shasta is really a Wolf, this makes Nate look rather good in my book. However, in case he wasn't, then if Nate was a Wolf instead, it would be very nasty way to connect two innocents.

EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Loslote]

Eönwë and Lottie - after what we've seen toDay, do you really believe Shasta and Legate could be in the same wolf team?

It would be insanely bold, but whoever survived would look very good. How much did Shasta suspect Legate before toDay? It could be the wolves decided that, since Legate was likely to be lynched for his suspicious reaction to Steve's dream, Shasta might as well come out of it looking very good.

Now, I'm not saying that this is necessarily what I think, but it is a possiblity I'm considering.

EDIT: xed with Legate

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Err - you do know that the exact same thing applies to yourself as well? The only difference between us with regards to Steve's case against Nog was that I had to vote and go to sleep immediately after it.
Of course I am aware of that. The difference is that I know I am innocent. And because I am innocent, I have no fear of saying what I think, even if it incriminates me.

Btw Eönwë since not many people answered your question, I agree with whoever it was (Zil?) who said the best time to reveal the dream would be before European bedtime today.

It was me, thank you. Twice.

EDIT: x-ed with Lottie

[Pomegranate]

Legate: Yes, I might react with disbelief. I would, however, check the facts BEFORE I posted anything. Especially since a big chunk of your distrust of Eonwe had in fact come from his outburst against Nog in the same morning. I would think, okay, so this guy is trying to seem a seer. I don't trust him. Why do I not trust him? I don't trust you, Legate because of how you acted in the Eonwe-case. If you'd now tell me you're a seer I would definitely reevaluate since in that case you'd have a good reason not to believe him.

And on Greenie: no surprise she has been so un-suspected. She has made a couple of sharp points (but wolves are capable of doing that). Biggest reason for her apparent innocence is the fact that she has had to leave early every Day, which has made her votes harder to read. I'm not saying that she's a wolf (far from that, though I'm not giving her the certain pr probable innocence either), but I'm glad she'll be around more today, so that maybe we can get a bit more material on her.

[Eönwë]

Eönwë and Lottie - after what we've seen toDay, do you really believe Shasta and Legate could be in the same wolf team?

It's a possibility. Very brave, very dangerous, but if pulled off could be very successful. I mean, since the end of yesterDay it would be clear that they would both be under heavy suspicion (Shasta for his acolyte-stuff and Legate for his anti-seer sentiment and then his 180 which looks like it was made to just appear good). Like I said before, it's the whole splitting the village into two sides, when really it's all under the banner of a wolf (like false competition in the business world). I can see Shasta being up for it, but I don't know about Legate.

It was me, thank you. Twice.
Though first you suggested waiting until the end of the Day (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667702&postcount=289).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Though first you suggested waiting until the end of the Day (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667702&postcount=289).

Eönwë, read it:

I actually suggest first NOT. Keep everyone (especially the WWs, therefore) in the dark until the end of the Day - or until most people really have to start voting, at least (=e.g. if people started to suspect you one Ordo heavily, Eönwë, you should stop them and reveal the person) - because if you don't say that yet, the WWs can be confused, we can possibly read more from their reactions... Nobody will kill you until the end of the Day, right, so no hurry with that.
Here - bolding mine. I had the same thing in mind from the beginning: before the first people (likely Americans) have to vote (that "you" in the bracket is of course a typo, should be "your").

Working on Nogalysis now... will post shortly.

[Inziladun]

I don't want to think I'm basically OMGUSing Legate here - I might be, certainly, but he's seemed completely (not a bit, not some, pretty much completely) off to me since the beginning.

I have to admit to not remembering what OMGUS means, but I do seem to recall you suspecting Legate on Day 1, based at least in part on his interactions with me regarding the Acolyte.
However, I don't know if that really gels with your focus now on me as the Acolyte!

A question that isn't even rhetorical but a serious one I'd like an answer for: why the blazes is everyone discussing the flipping acolyte? Has everyone forgotten we have wolves to catch? A dead wolf whose relationships with people we could go through? Yes, we shouldn't forget about the acolyte, but debating about her/him to this extent makes no sense. Not when we really have more substantial food for thought and discussion.

A question I've had for some time.

Boro and Zil look pretty innocent to me now, Legate and Shasta are weird (that obsession on the acolyte is not natural even for Shasta who can be a little single-minded at times :p), Pitch is under my radar and I have a vague bad feeling about Pom. I will need to reread and think more, maybe make a list.

I don't know about Boro. He feels less "natural" for him toDay than he did yesterDay. I'm used to an innocent Boro being a cunning, bold wolf-hunter and I really haven't seen that.

Pitch is just sort of hanging around in the background. He's not someone I could vote for toDay, I don't think, but I really need to go back and look at his stuff thus far.

As for Legate and Shasta, I still feel like I could vote either toDay.

Legate didn't do himself any favors in my eyes by his reaction to Steve, and for the life of me I can't understand Shasta. The focus on the Acolyte is one thing, but there's also that he seems so certain it's me. Like I said before, if the Acolyte is truly playing only for xemself, it's a lot more a shot in the dark to find xem than it is team players like wolves.
If those two are in the same pack, the wolf-on-wolf has been masterful.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

NOGALYSIS:

Day 1

- using the "random vote" argument to stir his own soup
- Greenie "might be up to something"
- Lottie "not too comfortable with"
- "something bothers" him about Pitch
- bothered about Boro the way he "painted G55 suspicious"
- agreeing with me a lot on several things
- larger and more focus on Lottie
- happy to lynch Bom
- he says he had tried to write a post on Zil two times and always decided not to post it - "you make me mad Zil!" (#122)
- does not believe in the guilt of Lommy (based on evidence) - sort of defense
- is "torn on principle" after Shasta's suggestion of Bom
- says he considers for voting: G55 or Boro, possibly Eruhen - or go with Shasta and vote Bom
- votes Bom
- says seems like he parroted almost everything I had said

Day 2

- short excursion about Acolyte
- explains how yesterDay sudden Lommywagon raised his eyebrows and made him wary
- analysis of Rikae after her death: says she suspected Zil, Steve, been "engaged with Lottie and nasty with G55"
- rebukes Pitch for being wise on hindsight (about Bom-lynch)
- retrospectively says he wanted to originally think of options between Bom, Boro and G55, and he did not want to vote Lommy by any means
- some hunter-thoughts about Zil or Boro maybe not being WWs if Rikae had hunted them, but he's being rather confused about that
- suspicions against Steve and G55. By the way, I think here might also be part of the reason for G55's death toNight: the WWs saw Nog was against her, so after he died, people might consider G55 innocent...
- again making it more hazy about whether Zil or Boro were Rikae's targets, whether they are WWs and she miscalculated, or are not... basically he's making the whole matter mysterious (which won't hurt him, I would think that at least one of his fellows is somehow in there - Boro or Zil, not sure if he'd talk specifically about them if it was them both)
- arguing with Boro, arguing with Pitch, suspecting G55...
- then a list!!! Great. Not sure what to make of it, though. Tends to trust Greenie somewhat, me somewhat; normal feelings from Lommy (nothing for or against) and something positive-seeming about Pomegranate. Vileness about Pitch, no ideas about Lottie, Sally, Shasta (no show until then). Mess with Boro, suspicion of G55. Enigmatic Zil-acolyte, we all know the story.
- from then on: Seer has revealed. Turns against Steve, G55 and slightly Boro.
- continues on "Zil is acolyte" until the very end.

This all leads me to believe:

1. Lottie is innocent (further supports my belief in that, I am now almost 100% sure she is innocent)

2. I am not sure what to make of Nog's attitude to Lommy, honestly that goes absolutely over my head, might be this, might be that...

3. Not sure about Greenie - there was the original slight suspicion, but later nothing; might be a packmate (small W-on-W and then nothing)

4. Now after reading this - I know that it will again sound like I am going purposefully against you, Shasta - after reading this, it's really weird that Shasta was the one person who followed the idea to lynch Zil and what more, that he is Acolyte. However, when I read what Shasta had said on his very voting post, it would again take a lot of boldness from a Wolf to do that. So basically the same thing as the first Day. Either Shasta is incredibly bold this game and now he has to stick to the role he had prepared for himself (promoting the thought that we have evil Zil Acolyte and need to get rid of him), or then he genuinely believes that (but then he was really jumping to completely unfounded assumptions).

5. As everything with Zil in this game, it is too hard to determine what he was thinking: whether Zil was a packmate and he was making a mess about the acolyte thing and later Nog wanted to (since he was a goner anyway) accuse a fellow Wolf; or whether Zil was innocent, Nog randomly went on with this Acolyte thing and then after he was revealed as Wolf, simply continued to accuse him in order to confuse us. Somehow, after thinking about it, I think the latter sounds more likely.

6. I have no idea what to make out of his interactions with Boro

7. being nice to Pomegranate - might be just echoing the agreeing posts, but of course might be packmates too

8. I would say it makes Pitch look better that Nog suspected him - though again, he never really voted him, so I think somebody should look at Pitch, too (he's a submarine, anyway) - not sure if toDay, but for future reference, for sure!

9. General thought about Wolf mentality: I would believe there is at least one Wolf among those Nog had not been talking much about. It is after all always better not to have to state your opinion on somebody, as it does not connect you in either way, positively or negatively.

Not sure how much this is helpful, but at least some more food for thought in general.

Btw: Was it Nog who had come up with that "Zil is Acolyte" stuff or was it somebody else before him, too? Does anybody remember?

EDIT: x-ed with Zil

[Pomegranate]

Actually, Nog was the first one to say anything in any ways questioning about me:


Pomegranate: I'm more or less agreeing with the majority that she looks both sharp and well, although I suspected her strong language in her first posts on my Bom-lynch -issue (or how she handled Legate: I think I've never seen Legate as explanational than there :)). Seeing that she voted Legate (whom I tend to trust somewhat) sure makes me wonder what did it mean when she said he answered her questions "fairly well" - and yet merited a vote. Also she talks of two votes for Eönwë which is either incorrect or then I have missed something; or that we should look at Legate, Eönwë (sic!) and Lommy while the person voting Eönwë is Greenie! (I'm really thinking I'm missing something here)


not that sure what that says to everyone about me, but when for once someone says something else than "she seems sharp", I remember it :P

[satansaloser2005]

Finns +1 and Shasta: Kindly calm down and stop flipping out. Now.

Thank you. Moving right along....

The Acolyte....Does not count for either side in the tally.

So, if you go with the assumption that the Acolyte kills every Night, yes, they are evil, but as far as numbers in the tally, the wolves are a bigger issue. We currently have ten people, which means we have nine people, which means we have three wolves and six goodies (and then of course the Acolyte). If we go after the Acolyte toDay and succeed, we will be in the same position toMorrow, except worse after the Night's kill. If we go after a wolf and succeed, we improve our numbers, which, granted, will decrease over the Night. Consider, however, the fact that the werewolves could kill the Acolyte, or the Acolyte could target one of the wolves. Thus, our more pressing issue must be the wolves, as they are a cohesive (mostly) unit, whereas the Acolyte, while a definite threat, is one man/woman.

Of course evil is evil, so as long as our lynch is evil, I will be happy. Thus, I'm not suspecting X or Y more of being wolf or Acolyte, but of being evil, period, the end.


Now onto other players....

I honestly believe that Shasta's over-the-top reaction to suspicion (which, at this point, has become rather silly, on both sides) is that of an innocent Shasta. As one who reacts so strongly as a suspected innocent, I can understand his annoyance. Of course, he could be acting, but I'd probably want to snuggle him either way. He is far from my main concern toDay.

Considering that I've suspected Legate most of the game, and that his reaction to Steve's reveal was so bizarre, I'm hardly going to stop suspecting him. He is my most likely vote candidate toDay.

Just so I can say I said it, if Steve is lying, he is in so much trouble.

Lommie's "I think Shasta should have found something wrong with my XYZ" makes me feel both more at ease and more concerned. Yes, it's true that it's something an ordo Lommie would say, but an evil Lommie would know that and would say it to look like an innocent Lommie saying that to make herself look more innocent. And other blather. Blargh, Lommie, I wish you hadn't said anything at all. I'm so torn now. :/

I can't get a good read on Lottie, PomPom, and Boro, so I'm leaving them alone in favor of better prospects.

Greenie rather fits into the above category, but I never can read her well, so I've come to expect that. If someone gives me a good reason to lynch her, I would, but otherwise I would be happy to leave her be and hope she is on my side.

I still maintain that Dun is evil. And no, Dun, it is not just because of your discussion (or rather, preference to have a lack thereof) of the Acolyte role. He simply reads like Inziladundundun to me, and has throughout most of the game. Now, someone explain to me exactly why he's the Acolyte and not a wolf.

And Pitch? Goodness, in another few posts, I'll have caught up to him, yet despite how little he's said, I've got this clear guilty impression of him. I think....honestly, I think I'm getting him and Dun blended again. I went back and looked back at my previous post (you know, the one that was longer than six lines) and couldn't help but notice that I didn't have much to say about him. Of course, what I said wasn't very good, but now that I've gone over things again, I don't want to concern myself with him toDay for fear that I've overreacted.

We all know what this list means, right? It means that I will be voting for Legate or Dun toDay. Which one though? I'm not yet sure.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Both Acolyte and wolf are bad
So why are we all getting mad
About this new role?
Why should we take polls
When we're all about to be had?

Just sayin'.


EDIT: I've been working on this list for about two hours, having been pulled away from the computer multiple times, so I've not really read the last....ten posts?

[Eönwë]

Ok, so it's about time to reveal who the Ordo is.

This will probably shock most of you, but the answer is... Inzil!




So, my picks:

Nigh1 1- Nogrod (Wolf)
Night 2 - Inzil (Ordo)
Night 3 - G55 (Ranger)


edit: x-ed with Sally.

[Eönwë]

I feel myself physically falling asleep at my computer (and I want to wake up aerlier so that I can talk more in the time before the DL, so here are a few final observations for now:

-I've looked over Lottie's posts. Their actual content seems innocent, but she seems way too quiet for normal Lottie, so I'm not sure what to think about that.

-The fact that Zil is innocent is the reason I was looking at Boro. I mean, the hint seems to pretty explicitly say that Inzil was the hunting target, and the fact that Nog tried to shift it to Boro seems quite bad.

-Still not sure what I think about the Shasta vs Legate thing toDay.



Of course, my main suspicion lies with Legate, but to a lesser extent, I also suspect Shasta, and there're also Boro, Lommy and Pitch who seem to be hanging around in my mind as possibly evil.

Obviously, Zil is good, and I still think Pom looks good. Lommy's more recent posts look quite good, but overall, she still seems kinda suspicious to me.

I still have no idea what to do with Sally or Greenie. I will look at them when I get back.

[Inziladun]

Ok, so it's about time to reveal who the Ordo is.

This will probably shock most of you, but the answer is... Inzil!




So, my picks:

Nigh1 1- Nogrod (Wolf)
Night 2 - Inzil (Ordo)
Night 3 - G55 (Ranger)

I thought so. You'd suspected me pretty strongly on Day 1. Then on Day 2, you dismissed me as a threat. When you revealed, it made sense. That's the reason I was so quick to trust you.

[Boromir88]

not that sure what that says to everyone about me, but when for once someone says something else than "she seems sharp", I remember it :P

You might not be able to fully experience a Downsian WW game until you've had a good, passionate row with me, but honestly, you need to start looking 20 times more suspicious for that to happen. Until then, you're going to be on my "Smart. Sharp player. Her, I like." list. It's probably a terribly boring list to be on, but you'll be on it until I actually see "Not only is she all that, but she's evil too. Her, I like, but keep a closer eye on!"

I don't know about Boro. He feels less "natural" for him toDay than he did yesterDay. I'm used to an innocent Boro being a cunning, bold wolf-hunter and I really haven't seen that.

Maybe if I actually had some gift in this game, I would see your point about not being myself. But really, I know nothing more than any other non-spy or seer. All I can do here is if I see it, call bs on someone and hopefully not do something disastrous like lynching the seer. If I can manage that, I think I've done the best I can, you lot...expect too much from me.

But I do realize I've been rubbish as far as giving my clear thoughts about today/lynching Nog/Ranger killed. It's nothing you're missing though, when it's essentially "I would not in the least bit have a problem with lynching Legate and/or* Shasta today."

*Yes, and/or, because I think there's been enough concentration on the two of them, for me...I've had enough Legate/Shasta in one sitting. I would propose orchestrating double-lynch, if not for the very fact that all of you are flippin' mad today and it's making me mental. So, attempting to put together a double-lynch would drive me more bonkers than what it would actually be worth.

I'm well aware there are more spies than just Legate a/o Shasta, but I am perhaps the worst multi-tasker you'll ever know. Give me one thing to do. I'll execute it and then move on to the next thing. Asking me to jumble all these ideas of a Legate-Shasta-Pitch, Shasta-Lommy-Greenie, Legate-sally-Lommy spy combinations is a processing overload for me. So unless you want my brain to explode, let me go about my business one step at a time. Starting with either Legate or Shasta today. Comprende?

Edit: crossed with everyone since Pom's that I quoted

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So, if you go with the assumption that the Acolyte kills every Night, yes, they are evil, but as far as numbers in the tally, the wolves are a bigger issue. We currently have ten people, which means we have nine people, which means we have three wolves and six goodies (and then of course the Acolyte). If we go after the Acolyte toDay and succeed, we will be in the same position toMorrow, except worse after the Night's kill. If we go after a wolf and succeed, we improve our numbers, which, granted, will decrease over the Night. Consider, however, the fact that the werewolves could kill the Acolyte, or the Acolyte could target one of the wolves. Thus, our more pressing issue must be the wolves, as they are a cohesive (mostly) unit, whereas the Acolyte, while a definite threat, is one man/woman.
That is in fact a VERY GOOD point and I think the whole village should smack its head for not saying this aloud before. I wonder whether the WWs have been leading us by our noses like that all the time ("lynch the Acolyte!" - Nog, and now if Shasta is the Wolf, it would be the same), or if we are just really so dumb village. I wouldn't be surprised by the latter, but... well.

Considering that I've suspected Legate most of the game, and that his reaction to Steve's reveal was so bizarre, I'm hardly going to stop suspecting him. He is my most likely vote candidate toDay.
Wow, really? Now that is news to me. Since when?

I am not so very surprised that people suspect me, since it started already yesterDay, and of course many people started suspecting me only now, some of them no doubt out of evil intentions. I know Shasta started suspecting me rather suddenly only this morning, but that is understandable because, as I am aware, my suspicion of Steve's claim had caused many to start frowning upon me. But if somebody claims "I have been suspecting you all along..." These are rather strong words.

I would also urge those who have brains (which, I hope, are all of us, just some of them have currently evil intentions in them) to think of why they actually suspect me. If it is all based on "Freddy said that Joe said that Legate did not want to trust Steve, and I myself also recall reading him saying something like that, so it is probably true", then I would very much like to ask if it is enough for you to vote for me. I get the feeling many people have been consequently interpreting everything I've said in the worst possible light, with their eyes closed. I had said as much to Shasta, but that goes also for Eönwë who seemed to be convinced from the start of the Day that I am trying to do the worst (even claiming that I had wanted him to postpone revealing innocents with some evil intentions, even though I have not and I was the only one who had talked to him about it until very late), also I get the same feeling from Nate and some others (maybe Sally here).

The worst thing are blind innocents who only latch to some idea without being able to criticise it. I know that because I did the very same thing when I wanted to lynch Steve yesterDay. You are now doing the very same thing. So if I am lynched, remember that when other people start accusing you for it. If you want to lynch me, then at least try to find some honest reason for it, if you are innocent. If you can't, try not to fabricate, as it might also backfire on you later. Only WWs fabricate.

***

Random remark - I would very much like to hear Boro contribute to the general discussion again with something more than just remarks devoted to this or that particular debate with this or that player. It would help sorting thoughts on him, because I think he's been rather in the background lately due to this fact of being very "specifically aimed" only on some things.

Anyway, I might go to sleep soon... will be back to vote some short time before DL.

EDIT: x-ed since Sally

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

-The fact that Zil is innocent is the reason I was looking at Boro. I mean, the hint seems to pretty explicitly say that Inzil was the hunting target, and the fact that Nog tried to shift it to Boro seems quite bad.
Interesting. It would, but does the hint really explicitely say that it is Inzil? I am still not getting the whole hint business...

I thought so. You'd suspected me pretty strongly on Day 1. Then on Day 2, you dismissed me as a threat. When you revealed, it made sense. That's the reason I was so quick to trust you.
And I owe you apologies for the really strong suspicion, and for calling you weird, although... well, there was something weird about your behavior. But well, happens.

*Yes, and/or, because I think there's been enough concentration on the two of them, for me...I've had enough Legate/Shasta in one sitting. I would propose orchestrating double-lynch, if not for the very fact that all of you are flippin' mad today and it's making me mental. So, attempting to put together a double-lynch would drive me more bonkers than what it would actually be worth.
No, please, NO. Okay, if Shasta is a Wolf, it would be better, but... hmm. Now I am thinking (since most people don't trust me much and I might be lynched anyway) whether not to try it and in case Shasta turns out innocent, totally lynch Boro for orchestrating such a massacre of innocents. I am only not sure if it is worth it. Two deaths are really a lot (if it turned out we both were innocent). I mean, if I knew for sure that Shasta was a Wolf, I'd be willing to even go and sacrifice myself along with him (for the sake of more clarity in the village). But despite all my suspicion of him, I can't be sure, of course. And I really hate double-lynches.

Also, anyway, if we really did it, it doesn't mean letting Boro off the hook. Quite the opposite. I mean, such a lynch, even if Shasta was a Wolf, would serve the Wolves just as well as us, number-wise. (If not even better. Somebody with better math skills should calculate that.)

I wonder what people think about it.

[Boromir88]

Random remark - I would very much like to hear Boro contribute to the general discussion again with something more than just remarks devoted to this or that particular debate with this or that player. It would help sorting thoughts on him, because I think he's been rather in the background lately due to this fact of being very "specifically aimed" only on some things.


Rarely do I do general lists on everyone currently living. And no offense, but I'm not jumping through hoops for you and your thoughts. If I need to clarify anything I've said, fine, ask away. My thoughts on people might be too focused/set on only a few, but they should be clear enough. If I haven't commented on someone/some topic, it's either because I've got nothing to say that hasn't already been stated, it's not important enough to me, or I generally feel ok about the person/situation.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Rarely do I do general lists on everyone currently living. And no offense, but I'm not jumping through hoops for you and your thoughts. If I need to clarify anything I've said, fine, ask away. My thoughts on people might be too focused/set on only a few, but they should be clear enough. If I haven't commented on someone/some topic, it's either because I've got nothing to say that hasn't already been stated, it's not important enough to me, or I generally feel ok about the person/situation.

I think the problem is rather opposite - you speak about a few things, but in such a wordy manner that it's often difficult to follow. But asking... well, let's say, since me and Shasta seem to be the topic of the day, for example you could briefly state why do you suspect both of us? In a few words, few points would suffice. I won't probably argue back or stuff like that, I would just like to see your opinion on us summed up, since you say you'd prefer to start with us; also so that future generations can see it, if it comes to that. So:

1. What do you suspect about me so much that you are willing to give me your vote, why;
2. What do you suspect about Shasta so much that you are willing to give him your vote, why.

If it takes you long, I might go to sleep meanwhile, but I will read it at the most in the morning. Also, it is intended not just for me, but also for others to read.

[Boromir88]

1. What do you suspect about me so much that you are willing to give me your vote, why;
2. What do you suspect about Shasta so much that you are willing to give him your vote, why.


You because your behavior, especially yesterday over Eonwe's reveal and when you were quite quick to call his first case against Nog bad/evil, for "painting Nog black." I kept telling myself yesterday "Is Nerwen sure she didn't add a cobbler? Because if there is one, it would be Legate."

Shasta, for his comment yesterday on how it looked like I was "bussing Nog's lynch." But I call the bull when I see it and Nog was spouting a lot of it yesterday, even before Eonwe revealed he was a wolf. And with Nog, Shasta should know Nog will try to intimidate you, so you have to be over-zealous and throw his aggression right back at him. And today...really do I have to say it? :rolleyes:

[Boromir88]

No, please, NO. Okay, if Shasta is a Wolf, it would be better, but... hmm. Now I am thinking (since most people don't trust me much and I might be lynched anyway) whether not to try it and in case Shasta turns out innocent, totally lynch Boro for orchestrating such a massacre of innocents. I am only not sure if it is worth it. Two deaths are really a lot (if it turned out we both were innocent). I mean, if I knew for sure that Shasta was a Wolf, I'd be willing to even go and sacrifice myself along with him (for the sake of more clarity in the village). But despite all my suspicion of him, I can't be sure, of course. And I really hate double-lynches.

And relax. I wasn't being serious with that double lynch, but expressing my annoyance at both of you, and overall annoyance at this "Legate-Lottie-Shasta" "Lommy-sally-Shasta" spy-trifecta chatter today. Annoyed to the point where, at this time I couldn't care less if either you or Shasta were lynched, therefor you could both go. Give a few hours to have some hot chocolate, watch some guilty pleasure/trash and I'll be significantly less annoyed.

[Loslote]

I've got to vote early, so I'll go ahead and

++Legate

For the reasons stated in my earlier post, especially his reaction to Steve's reveal. Good lynching, everyone!

[Inziladun]

Smilies removed. This is not a comprehensive "everything he said" list, just some things that stood out.

so I think it's a bit strange that Legate continues going after Inzil with a point that he specifically mentioned wasn't a point against Inzil.

Casts a little suspicion onto Legate.

Nogrod's #23 is a long, well-written post that doesn't really say much. For one, it's another "hate on random votes" post, and for another, it's his thoughts on the Acolyte. All well and good, but it seems he's replying to something Legate was using against Inzil at the time, which doesn't really fit.

A small point against Nog.

And in a bit of a turnaround, Inzil's #24 is another answer to Legate that's basically been the same as his previous answers. Could be a case of "talking too much yet saying nothing", but I still tend to think Legate is the fishier of the two.

Ok, so in the Acolyte debate of Legate and I he finds Legate "fishier" there.

In #29, Inzil mentions that Rikae agrees with him and then doesn't like the emptiness of his posts, which looks like an opportunistic kind of "hey, look, that's suspicious" move - except in the post he quotes, Rikae says she agrees with Legate, not Inzil. Interesting.

Says I was "opportunistic" when I pointed out what I thought was a contradiction on Rikae's part.

...What? You just got through basically reprimanding Inzil for discussion that doesn't accomplish anything, and now you're giving him a license to continue? That's.... awkward, Steve, very awkward indeed.

Scolds Eönwë for further questioning about the Acolyte business.

Pitch is now the second person to basically say 'Yeah, Legate had a good point on Inzil' (Greenie was the first.) And that bothers me, since Legate specifically said that what he was saying was "nothing against Zil". It's also worth noting that though Pitch apparently agrees with Legate's point, he hangs back a bit with "whenever I've suspected him because of it I've been wrong" - almost in a way that leaves him an out in case an Inzil lynch happens.

Brings some suspicion on Pitch. That's all from the same post.


If you're talking about when she blew up at Rikae, I tend to disagree here (what? Shasta disagrees with Nogrod?) And I tend to disagree with Boro, too, when he mentioned that "that's typical G55." I'm almost certain I've never seen G55 explode like that, and the post she made after to clarify what she was saying (indeed, that she felt like she had to clarify at all) looks suspicious to me.

Also, the fact that it's Nogrod, of all people, defending what seems to be an emotional outburst is an immediate red flag.

Attacks Nog for defending G55.


Okay... Lottie's post was pretty obviously a joke to me, given that it's Lottie (and given the wink smiley.) So you're thinking it's Lottie, not Inzil who looks weird there? But I thought you were just thinking it was Inzil (see above)? If that's the case, then you look like you're scrambling to make the same evidence fit a different theory now that your first one's been debunked, if that makes sense. Right now, that looks bad.

This was against Lommy.

In Legate's #68 (and, apparently, in his list from earlier, as I think that's where Eonwe got his quote), he apparently legitimately suspects Inzil? Which, then, looks a bit like a Legatewolf going "Hey, people bought that? Okay, let's go with it!"

More suspicion on Legate.

...You're kidding. Who are you and what have you done with Nogrod?! That's so unlike what you'd normally say that I'm almost forced to look for a reason why you'd be protecting G55.

And more suspicion on Nog.


Well... in Inzil's post here -

- he pretty well answers that, in my opinion. So why mention it yet again? Legate, you do realize you've been doing basically the same thing as what you say Inzil's been doing, right?

Takes Legate to task about suspecting me for supposedly not answering him about the Acolyte deal.

Also, Inzil at #96 - all the talk about you apparently not just posting "empty posts" and you post something like this? Man...

This (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667451&postcount=96) was the post he was talking about. I thought he was really reaching in calling that "empty".

He's explained himself twice. I find it interesting that you missed both instances, and I find it even more interesting that you're finding Inzil this suspicious right after A) he starts getting votes (Rikae's in particular) and B) he votes for you.

Doesn't like Eönwë's suspicions of me.


Leaning Very Innocent:
Shasta - Duh.

Leaning Innocent:
Boro - Two major reasons: one, I agree with him regarding G55; two, he's getting what seems to be a rather large amount of suspicion from people I'm currently suspicious of.

Rikae - I debated with myself for a bit before putting her here, instead of "No read", because she has been posting. It may be that her posts stick out less in my mind because they aren't gigantic walls of text; everything she's said thus far looks fairly ship-shape. I don't know that I agree with her vote, but she hasn't said anything that's made me think her overtly suspicious.

Pitch - Nothing Pitch has done today has really set off any alarm bells for me. Even though he's said a fair bit today, he almost went under the radar for me because I just remember him saying a fair bit without actually remembering much of the content - except when he argued a bit with Nogrod. I remember concentrating on that part especially.

Lottie - Like Boro, has been taking some heat from other people I find more suspicious. She's also said quite a bit that I happen to agree with. I don't find her suspicious at the moment.

Leaning Worse than Innocent, Better than Guilty:
Steve - Was tending to think him more innocent than not until his most recent post against Inzil. A lot about that post looks odd, especially the timing of it.

Greenie - Not a lot here to go on, but more than anyone in the "Not Leaning at All" category. I don't really agree with her vote.

Inzil - I'm not certain that he's an innocent. That said, there are some indicators that he was the target of a witchhunt today, for good or ill (I'm leaning ill, myself.)

Leaning Guilty:
G55 - I was fine with her until she exploded earlier. After that, I felt like her clarification of said explosion was basically used to make people more confident of her innocence ("A wolf wouldn't act like that," etc).

Lommy - I was on the same page with her regarding the Lottie/Inzil Case of the Ambiguous Posts until Inzil mentioned that he was talking about something completely different. I thought that was the end of it until Lommy began talking about ways that that made Lottie look bad in a way that almost looked like she was looking for support.

Nogrod - I admit, most of the reason he's in this category is his apparent connection to G55, whom I also find suspicious. His reaction to and subsequent defense of her was so incredibly counter to normal Nogrod that I just can't see that being his real thoughts on the matter.

Legate - The apparent leader of what has looked to me like a witchhunt on Inzil. Apparently missed it the first time Inzil explained himself, and hasn't posted since he explained it the second time. Still, the fact that he mentioned in the beginning that what he was saying wasn't a point against Inzil, and didn't change his mind until a fair number of people seemed to share his ideas, looks bad to me.

Not Leaning at All:
Sally
Pomegranate
Eruhen
Bom


I will likely end up voting someone in the "Guilty" category today.

Ok, so he has me in the middle category with Steve, and both Nog and Legate in the worst section.

I'll comment on the rest momentarily, but I want to get this thought out there as quickly as possible to give everyone time to consider - I would, personally, be not at all averse to lynching Bom. Think about it for a second - why, even beyond Legate's thought (which is currently the prevailing mood, sad as it is to say), I can nearly guarantee that later, down the road, someone will say "man I wish we could lynch Bom, but we can't now, it's too late in the game." Because, as I recall, Bom does this quite a bit, and people say exactly what has been said thus far - that is, chastising him for it but not really doing anything about it. Because the general opinion is either "oh that's just Bom" or "a wolf wouldn't do that, oh well."

So if people want to lynch Bom, I'm all for it. It's about time our threat of "participate or face a lynch" actually had some bite to it.

Out of nowhere decides lynching Bom is a good option. As I think I said before, I can see an innocent Shasta doing this, but it was a bad idea, and good cover for a baddie.

It looks odd that it's only after you start getting suspected and voted that you suddenly suspect Inzil as much as you did in that post. If you just woke up to find that, it's less odd (I honestly have no idea what timezone you're in, haha.)


That's precisely the point! :mad:


That's fair. But I'm not sure you realize that Lottie does that all the time. Again, that's getting into playstyle differences. But it's a point regardless.


That line has since been explained. See Lommy and Zil's conversation.

And another point I was trying to make. Why should this kind of behavior be acceptable from anyone, no matter who? And you can "strongly discourage" all you like - it's not going to change anything. It never has.


No, I understood that. I was just wondering if you saw that every time Inzil answered with the same answer, you responded again with the same question.


Uh-huh, and that leads back to the "witchhunt" I was mentioning earlier. Just what explanation would have satisfied you? Because it looks to me like you were prepared to be dissatisfied by anything Inzil said.

He defends me from Legate and Eönwë. Thinks I'm the would-be victim of a "witch hunt".

No, it'd be a wake-up call. No one should be allowed to slip through without participating and voting. People can say "oh, well, they didn't deserve to win" all they like when someone who just floats through the game ends up living to the end (because if they're wolves no one wants to lynch them because of lack of evidence and if they're innocent the wolves won't kill them because they're not doing anything) - it doesn't change the facts that they won, and we let them by allowing them to do so.

Defends his wanting to lynch Bom.

Well, with Lommy looking a little better now that I know where she was coming from re: Lottie, I'm going to put my money (or in this case, vote) where my mouth is.

++Bom

You're right, Lommy, it is a little harsh. However, I, personally, feel like it's something that has to happen at least once, or nothing will ever change.

It's mean regardless of what I am. I know that. And I'm sure I'll change my tune once Bom proves that he's capable of actually participating in a game he signs up for. That doesn't really change anything.

Has no apparent regrets about voting for Bom. This seems fairly in character for an innocent Shasta.

Hmm. I don't know. He certainly wasn't shy about pointing accusations at people. then again, restraint really isn't Shasta's style.

Just on the basis on Day 1, I'd be inclined to think him innocent, or at least not a Spy.

[Inziladun]

Note - for this game it's likely I'll only be active during the latter half of the Day, as Sally said - the DL is 6 am my time, so yeah.

In any case, I'll comment on the most recent happenings real fast before I go back and do a post-by-post commentary.

Eonwe - Seer
Nog - Wolf
Inzil - Acolyte

Seriously? Guys. Look at the Eruhen kill. It's pretty clear at this point that the Acolyte, if not a traditional werebear, at least has the power to kill by himself (I say him because Nog being a wolf doesn't mean his points about Inzil being the Acolyte aren't valid - I've thought so myself since yesterday, as did Rikae apparently).

Nog is a wolf. Fine. Lynch him tomorrow. Lynching one wolf out of four isn't going to have any short-term effects - if we lynch Inzil (who clearly, at this point, doesn't have the best interests of the village in mind), we drop the number of kills per night to one.

++Inzil

After Steve's reveal, Shasta votes for me, saying he thought I was the Acolyte since the previous Day. He's willing to vote for me over a probable Spy Day 2, yet Day 1 he had me in his "middle" category of suspicion and voted for Bom. He said I might be the target of a witch hunt then. I have a serious problem with this inconsistency. It looks like a possible attempt by a ShastaSpy to save a mate.

We know it kills people. I think that's quite enough.

Again, we don't know what the Acolyte does.

However, I didn't even consider a double-lynch idea. That would solve the conundrum quite nicely. Who's left to vote? Can we pull it off?

Thinks now about a double lynch of me and Nog. What really made me suspicious about Shasta wanting to get me was that he had no certainty I was the Acolyte, or whether the Acolyte was definitely evil.

It doesn't make sense to me still how an innocent could consider the Acolyte more worthy of killing than a wolf, even if it were certain who the Acolyte was.

This makes Shasta look evil.

[Inziladun]

I thought the narration was pretty clear on that fact, myself. Unless a "shadowy figure" isn't supposed to be suspicious.


1. Inzil was hinting at something during Day 1. If you'll remember, Rikae mentioned it quite blatantly.

2. Nog's points about it. The fact that he was a wolf doesn't really matter - the Acolyte doesn't count for the innocents or the wolves; plus, every indication was that the Acolyte was some type of Werebear, with the Eruhen kill. Wolves have an interest in getting rid of the Werebear - besides that the Werebear could kill them at night, something they aren't usually worried about, the Wolves and Werebear traditionally cannot win together. I don't think Nog's points about Inzil being the Acolyte should be discounted just because he was a wolf.

3. (and really the best point) - He hasn't denied it. Every time the subject has gotten a little too close to someone asking him directly, Inzil has either avoided the question or changed the subject.

So Shasta's willing to listen to a known Spy, who really was the one who started the ball rolling that I must be the Acolyte. And his third "point", that I hadn't denied it, is utter rubbish. Pitch mentioned that too, I think. What would it really have gained me? It's like telling someone they must be a wolf, then when they don't come right out and say they're innocent, saying "See? A real innocent would have proclaimed they were good!"

Now then, what was so scary about wanting to double lynch Nog (a Seer-dreamt wolf) and Inzil (who I'm convinced is the Acolyte, and want to lynch)? Let's look at the votes from yesterday -

When I voted Inzil, Nog had 5 votes. Therefore, even if every person after me had voted Inzil, Nog would still have been lynched along with him.

Which, coincidentally, renders this point by Legate -

- utter bollocks, if you'll pardon the saying. Sure, the other three wolves could have voted Eonwe. That would just have required manipulation of the space-time continuum (at the point Legate said this, it was just him and Pitch left to vote), and would have put Eonwe at 5 and Nog at 6. Brilliant!

Again: There was no way to know I was the Acolyte. He was willing to gamble on killing me rather than lynch Nog.

Conclusions from above - I think Inzil is the Acolyte, I would ideally like to get rid of him before he can kill again, and some things Legate have said have been so far off the mark and unlike how I know Legate to act that it's basically Nog vol. II to my eyes at the moment.

So he wants to kill me, but thinks Legate suspicious too.

Subtle? I thought I was being quite blatant. I don't trust the Acolyte, and I don't think anyone else should. Good try, Boro.

And another thing. Your post that was basically 'you just look so suspicious Nog' was way more over-the-top than anything I've said thus far. The similarity between that and how I remember Glirdan being was too uncanny for me not to mention it. You're really reaching incredibly far here.

Some suspicion on Boro.

Well, it wasn't a modkill (Nerwen would have said so) and it wasn't a wolf kill (that was Rikae in the narration), so...? I think that's pretty clear.

He was incorrect on this, as pointed out by Steve.

Cool. I don't believe you, but cool. Then what were you really doing Day 1?

This in response to my exasperatingly saying point-blank I wasn't the Acolyte. I'm sure he would have believed had I said that Day 1. :rolleyes:

"Don't like" it all you wish. I'm going to keep doing it. Someone has to, because apparently no one's worried that's it's not just wolves killing us but me. Therefore, while I'm still going to be looking for wolves, I'm likely going to continue pushing an Inzil lynch.

Says right out that he wants me lynched over wolves. Despite the fact that we don't know what the Acolyte really does, and we do know what the Spies do.

Now I'm really getting annoyed. Apparently everything I say or do is going to be suspicious to someone. Also, Pitch, this is crap. Eonwe wasn't that suspected, there was no reason for an Eonwe-wolf to self-destruct by fake-revealing on D2. Therefore, he was legit, his dream on Nog was legit, and at the time it was very likely (to me, apparently, but not to anyone else) that there was going to, again, be a second kill on N2, which I wanted to prevent. This bit about "wolves concocting an emergency strategy" is rubbish, as evidenced by the nine votes on Nog yesterday.

I keep coming back to the point that he had no concrete evidence that I was the Acolyte.

While going back and looking at Legate, I found this -


- in regards to whether Eonwe should reveal his ordo. Now, my overall reaction to Legate is still that he seems extremely fishy, but this is actually an interesting point, and one that looks fairly innocent, actually.

The main reason it caught my eye, actually, is how Legate can post well-thought-out points like this and at the same time be as wildly off-kilter as he has been? My overall conclusion on this is while the point makes him look slightly better, the dichotomy makes him look worse.

This looks like trying to keep the door open on Legate for a potential lynch, while leaving other options as well.

Boro, your post is based entirely around the fact that you think I was saying Nog was being reasonable (thus implying that I was defending him.) If you look back, you'll see that I fully believed Eonwe that Nog was a wolf - I simply thought I would try and prevent someone I thought had killing powers from killing again. What's better, two kills per night or one? You're going far, far out of your way to misrepresent me here and I don't like it one bit.

And I'm not "fixated" on the Acolyte. There's no "rampage". I keep bringing up the subject because NO ONE ELSE WILL. Seriously, everyone but me thus far has basically said "oh well we don't know the Acolyte isn't playing for the good team" and has basically left it there and I think that's wrong. The Acolyte doesn't count for innocents or wolves in the tally - how likely is it the Acolyte can only win by himself? Answer: pretty likely.

But fine. If the only response I'm going to get is "Shasta's suspicious for talking about the Acolyte" then I'll drop the subject completely. I won't even say "told you so" when the Acolyte wins by themselves. :rolleyes:

The narrative for N1 appears to support that Eruhen was killed by someone, not modkilled.

Oh, right. My bad. Shutting up.

This apparent frustration looks genuine on the surface, but it really doesn't look like something that should have merited such a reaction.

I'm aware of that. Which is why I'm still looking for spies/wolves. But I still think the Acolyte is a greater threat than people are making him out to be. I suppose it's a bit like the cobbler debate - do you lynch a known cobbler, or do you keep hunting for wolves?

And once again, he didn't know anything about who the Acolyte was. You know, this whole debate would be different if, say, a Seer had outed the Acolyte.


I already pointed out how much rubbish this point is. In fact, since I voted Inzil, I'd be very interested to hear how I supposedly threatened Eonwe yesterday.

I don't want to think I'm basically OMGUSing Legate here - I might be, certainly, but he's seemed completely (not a bit, not some, pretty much completely) off to me since the beginning.

What does OMGUS mean again?

Wrong. I never said I wanted to lynch Eonwe, in fact I never mentioned him in the slightest. Why would I want to lynch the Seer, in any case? Yes, I mentioned that a double lynch of Inzil and Nog might be a good idea, after someone mentioned it (I'd originally forgotten about double lynches at all), but how would that have "left uncertainty"? Nog would have been just as dead. Your other point is still not very good - I already gave you the numbers to prove that even if it had been possible for the wolves to double-lynch Eonwe, they all would have been revealed after that and the game would be over! See, Legate, you keep trying to make this into a reason that I'm suspicious and it's just not working. That's what I mean about how completely off you are. I didn't mean to insult you or anything, if that's what you thought (as your last comment leads me to believe.)

He's got a point here in that Legate was misrepresenting him.

I sense the beginnings of a witchhunt, but fine, I'll answer.

I had originally forgotten about the fact that we could double lynch - I wanted Zil gone over Nog because I felt both were bad for the innocents, but killing Inzil would have dropped the nightkills from two to one (I still thought the Acolyte was going to kill the next night.) Then, after I voted, the idea of a double lynch was mentioned, which I thought was a fine idea - kill both with one lynch.

Sidenote, Legate - it was not going to be very easy to make a double-lynch all by my lonesome, as you're implying. I knew Nog had four or five votes by then and I knew no one else had voted Inzil, but I figured it was worth a shot, and if I didn't manage it then Nog would be lynched anyway and that'd be one baddie down.

Had it been possible, yes. Once Lommy voted right after me, though, I didn't really think it was possible. Still, since there wasn't a vote tally up and I wasn't sure how many more votes were coming in, I felt like there was still a chance and I urged people to consider it.

Seriously? We'd be getting rid of a wolf and the Acolyte, who I thought (and still think) was dangerous.

If you're asking me this, then you're implying there wasn't a way to achieve that, which means your point about me endangering Eonwe, is, like I said, pretty leaky. That said, I'll answer - it would have required the cooperation of the people after me to vote; like I said, once Lommy voted I figured the chances were slim, but there was no harm in trying.

What about it? In my view, either way we were getting rid of someone who was a danger to the village. If Nog was lynched, fine - we'd gotten rid of a wolf. If Zil went instead, that was fine too - that'd be the end of the Acolyte and we could lynch Nog the next day; if Eonwe had managed to find another wolf with his dream, we could just double-lynch them, so we weren't even losing any time.

Who do I suspect? You, currently. Boro, because I think he was bussing Nog. Inzil I still suspect of Acolyte-ism, but I don't think he's a wolf, unless his "lynch me instead of Eonwe" yesterday was just a very clever wolf-front. I still have some suspicions of Lommy as well.

All that was in response to Legate. I'm inclined to think Shasta looks a bit better for it.

Nogrod on Lommy

Day 1, Nogrod barely mentions Lommy at all. He mentions her in passing in a post on Pitch and another on Lottie, then near the end of the day he says this -

and then in #122 he defends her.

What he's defending her against here is the votes she got from Eruhen (he calls it "bandwagoning in major scale" and G55 ("possible bandwagon".) It's interesting to note that most of what this post is about, seemingly, is less defense of Lommy and more a changing of his attitudes toward G55, who he started the Day very trusting of. The two (defense of Lommy and early defense of G55) actually look rather similar.

And that's all Nogrod says about Lommy on Day 1.

Day 2, Nog's #168:

Again, more a justification of his suspicion of G55 than anything about Lommy. The only thing a little bit interesting here is that last comment, which is basically a tacit endorsement of what Lommy said earlier. I suppose it could be a way to subtly reinforce good vibes about Lommy, but it's such a small thing that I doubt it.

Here he's answering Pitch about the Bom lynch, and mentions that he had no reason to vote for Lommy as he had nothing against her. And he hasn't, so that's okay.

Nog's #201 is in answer to a post of Lommy's from earlier, and he's very neutral about it, just basically responding to something she said rather than attacking her or defending her at all.

A short quote from #228:

Again in response to G55. Mentions again that Lommy was going to be bandwagoned.


This is what Nog had to say about Lommy from his list post, #234, right after Eonwe's reveal. Again, very neutral, nothing for or against.

And then he doesn't mention her again after that.

So, conclusions - well, there aren't really very many to be drawn here, to be honest. Nog barely mentioned Lommy, and when he did he was either kinda defensive or completely neutral. I suppose it could be a giant case of distancing, but there's not really anything to support that.

Looks for links between Lommy and Nog. Apparently doesn't see any.

"Defensive." "Jumpy." "Making stuff up." What did I tell you? Witchhunt. :rolleyes: All me answering your questions did was give you more fodder for your witchhunt against me, because all you've mentioned are opinions that are designed to look like hard suspicions. Look at this -

(in regards to this-)

Now, you say this sounds fabricated. Obviously there's nothing I can say to that, since it's not fabricated. But it gives you an easy way to continue to suspect me, doesn't it?

I'm going to skip over all the bit about the Acolyte because it's clear that, whether you're innocent or evil, we just flat are not going to agree where he's concerned.


This is just the same point, restated in order to make it look like you have a bigger argument against me than you already do. Also, I said basically the same thing earlier in the day when I replied to Pom, so there's further proof I didn't make it all up just now.

All that was also in response to Legate.

*throws hands up*

I'm done talking for now. I'm making myself far too easy for the wolves to lynch, at this point.

Now seems convinced he's going to be bandwaggoned.

Conclusions? Well...I don't trust him in the slightest, but I don't know if I find him or Legate (who I don't have time to analyze) more worthy of a vote. I feel fairly good about one of the twain being evil, and at any rate I haven't really looked closely at anyone else.

I'll have to vote very soon. Maybe I can make up my mind as I brush my teeth.

[Inziladun]

Ok. Decision time.

I'll go with

++Shasta

I do have some notable issues with Legate, but my wariness of Shasta really stems from his inconsistency from thinking me the victim of a "witch hunt" on Day 1, to saying on Day 2 that he'd thought me the Acolyte since then, though he voted for Bom. I hope I'm right.

Good luck, village!

[satansaloser2005]

That is in fact a VERY GOOD point and I think the whole village should smack its head for not saying this aloud before. I wonder whether the WWs have been leading us by our noses like that all the time ("lynch the Acolyte!" - Nog, and now if Shasta is the Wolf, it would be the same), or if we are just really so dumb village. I wouldn't be surprised by the latter, but... well.

Actually, Dun (and myself, to a far lesser extent) has been saying how we shouldn't focus too much on the Acolyte, and that's exactly why other people have been suspecting him. (Not me. I'm a free thinker, see, and suspected him all on my own.) And thank you. It is a good point. Don't sound so surprised. :p


Wow, really? Now that is news to me. Since when?

I am not so very surprised that people suspect me, since it started already yesterDay, and of course many people started suspecting me only now, some of them no doubt out of evil intentions. I know Shasta started suspecting me rather suddenly only this morning, but that is understandable because, as I am aware, my suspicion of Steve's claim had caused many to start frowning upon me. But if somebody claims "I have been suspecting you all along..." These are rather strong words.

I never said I suspected you all along. I said:

Considering that I've suspected Legate most of the game, and that his reaction to Steve's reveal was so bizarre, I'm hardly going to stop suspecting him. He is my most likely vote candidate toDay.

Bolding mine, as is the victory. "Most of the game" and "all along" are two vastly different things, pet.


Huh. Well, that's unfortunate. I seem to have taken an accidental nap for a bit there, and I'm still quite sleepy. Considering that I doubt I'd wake up again in time to vote, I should just vote now, so that I might get some sleep.

++Legate

If you're shocked, try to hide it.


Or, as they say in Limerick....

Don't think that this changes my mind
Just 'cause our dear Legate was kind
I still trust him least
Aye, he's yet a beast
And thus we must leave him behind


(Sleeping now. Dealing with the idiocy of Dun being innocent later. Rest in pieces*, Steve, and thanks for all your help.)

*Note for the overzealous non-native (or non-sarcastic) speaker: Just pun and games there.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Okay, fine, Inzil's an ordo. Fair enough. But you aren't allowed to suspect someone for thinking you were claiming something when you were acting like you were claiming something (and don't try to deny that, Inzil, it's all over your D1 actions.)

Moving on -
Shasta, for his comment yesterday on how it looked like I was "bussing Nog's lynch." But I call the bull when I see it and Nog was spouting a lot of it yesterday, even before Eonwe revealed he was a wolf. And with Nog, Shasta should know Nog will try to intimidate you, so you have to be over-zealous and throw his aggression right back at him. And today...really do I have to say it?
Your post was completely over the top, even for you. The wording just seemed too bloodthirsty for me not to mention it. And yes, you do - because as far as I can see, the only reason anyone suspects me today is because I'm more concerned about the Acolyte than anyone else. So you definitely just look like you're bandwagoning one of the top suspects of the Day here.

After Steve's reveal, Shasta votes for me, saying he thought I was the Acolyte since the previous Day. He's willing to vote for me over a probable Spy Day 2, yet Day 1 he had me in his "middle" category of suspicion and voted for Bom. He said I might be the target of a witch hunt then. I have a serious problem with this inconsistency. It looks like a possible attempt by a ShastaSpy to save a mate.
You really think, if I was a wolf, I had a shot at saving the Seer-dreamt Nogrod yesterday after he already had five votes against him? You vastly overestimate my skills, I'm afraid. Or you think I'm an idiot. Either or.

It doesn't make sense to me still how an innocent could consider the Acolyte more worthy of killing than a wolf, even if it were certain who the Acolyte was.
Sigh. I will try to explain this one more time and then I'm dropping the subject entirely.

From my point of view, the Acolyte had killed someone N1, along with the wolves. And do not give me that rubbish about "oh it might have been a modkill, Nerwen said she wouldn't tell us." If it were a modkill, she would have told us. I don't think I've ever seen a mod not tell us if someone was modkilled, let alone the person themselves apologizing for having to drop over on the admin thread. It was an Acolyte-kill, end of discussion. Now then. If the Acolyte killed on N1, to my mind that meant they were at least some form of Werebear, and would more likely than not be killing again. Given the high number of wolves in the village, it meant that the game would end that much faster if there were consistenly going to be more than one kill per night, unless the Bear happened to start hitting wolves. I didn't want to take that chance, so I wanted to remove the possibility of more than one kill per Night.

I genuinely don't know how to make it any clearer than that. If after reading this you still suspect me for it, then I'm never going to get through to you.

And his third "point", that I hadn't denied it, is utter rubbish.
It wasn't the greatest, but it wasn't as bad as you make it out to be, either. My thinking was that since you hadn't denied it explicitly, but hadn't come out and claimed either, then perhaps you were getting around a "forbidden to claim" rule. We've seen them before, I don't think it's that much of a stretch.

What does OMGUS mean again?
"Oh my gosh, you suck." Used when someone votes or suspects someone else based at least partly on the fact that they were suspected by that same person.

Most of the rest of this post is the exact same point, reiterated ad infinitum, that I want (and still would like, actually) the Acolyte dead and that I couldn't be 100% positive it was Inzil. I've gone over and gone over this point and I'm done with it.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Anyway, time to vote.

++Legate

Granted, part of this vote is self-preservation, but I do actually suspect him. Some of the points he's tried to make are just too far off-the-wall wrong for innocent!Legate to make.

[Pitchwife]

Sorry for coming back so late - had dinner with my parents and was too tired afterwards. Catching up now.

So far I've got to the point where Legate accuses Shasta for threatening Eönwë with his double lynch proposal. Excuse me, but it wasn't Shasta who was "rather convinced, now thinking about it more and more, that Eönwë is just fake" yesterDay (#236) and toyed with the question whether it would be OK to lynch him, and this does look very much like Legate is trying to deflect suspicion of himself for his reaction to Eönwë's reveal on Shasta.

(Not that I think a double lynch would have been a splendid idea btw, but it actually would have been better than the original proposal to lynch Zil first and Nog later, as it would at least have got a wolf lynched yesterDay.)

Reading on.

[Eönwë]

I'm most likely voting Legate toDay, but I think first I'm going to look through all his posts- he's made it hard though, having the highest post count by quite a bit.

[Eönwë]

And yes, I have been entertaining the idea of a Legate-Shasta double-lynch, but I don't know if we can afford it.

[Pitchwife]

So, if you go with the assumption that the Acolyte kills every Night, yes, they are evil, but as far as numbers in the tally, the wolves are a bigger issue. We currently have ten people, which means we have nine people, which means we have three wolves and six goodies (and then of course the Acolyte). If we go after the Acolyte toDay and succeed, we will be in the same position toMorrow, except worse after the Night's kill. If we go after a wolf and succeed, we improve our numbers, which, granted, will decrease over the Night. Consider, however, the fact that the werewolves could kill the Acolyte, or the Acolyte could target one of the wolves. Thus, our more pressing issue must be the wolves, as they are a cohesive (mostly) unit, whereas the Acolyte, while a definite threat, is one man/woman.
This is sound reasoning.

But Sally, while you're in such a reasonable mode, can you explain this thing you said yesterDay:
Steve's reveal is in line with my own thoughts (and if he's lying, as previously mentioned, I can kill him, which is equally fun).
Why the singular and "kill", not "lynch"?
(No, before you get upset, I'm not saying you're the Acolyte, I'm saying you've been toying with the role, and I can't see why you should do that while insisting that the A. is evil.)

[Thinlómien]

Gah, this game is crazy. I can very much realte with the sentiment that it'd be nice to double-lynch Shasta and Legate, but I also have sort of last-minute doubts. They are both acting so crazy that what if they're both innocent and the remaining wolves are, say, Pom, Pitch and Sally? Ugh. I'm thinking of going through what everybody said Nog, as a sort of pair for Legate's analysis, and hoping it would give us some hints.

edit: xed with Pitch

[Pitchwife]

Ok, so it's about time to reveal who the Ordo is.

This will probably shock most of you, but the answer is... Inzil!
Thank you, that simplifies things.

But tell me one thing: if you already dreamed Nog on Night 1 and knew from the beginning that he was a wolf, why on Earth did you join his and Shasta's "lynch Bom" initiative?

I fully understand that you didn't attack him on Day 1, but to actually vote with a known wolf against an unknown?

[A Little Green]

Lommy pretty much read my mind. I was thinking of reading at least Pitch - I don't know why everyone keeps calling him a submarine when he's been reasonably active all game - certainly more active than some others, including myself.

As for the topic of the Day - I think Shasta looks more innocent than wolf, actually. I know a Shastawolf can get pretty bold, but this game he'd be insane. (Whoops. Excessive use of italics. Lommy will have my head for this! :eek: ) Legate started reminding me of Nog, actually, in the martyr-ish post where he pretty much says everyone suspecting him is either a wolf or blind. And that he even considers Boro's half-hearted double-lynch idea is just - odd.


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch

[A Little Green]

This apparent frustration looks genuine on the surface, but it really doesn't look like something that should have merited such a reaction.A quick note before I forget; Zil, I think we're on dangerous waters if we try to assess whether some (emotional) reaction is proportionate or not. People react in such different ways, and what's more, emotional reactions don't follow a logic so evaluating them logically is just not very valid.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Bolding mine, as is the victory. "Most of the game" and "all along" are two vastly different things, pet.
Since when is this "most of the game", anyway? "Most" means "more than the rest", obviously, so definitely more than 50% of the time, if you want to put it like that. You did not bother to answer "since when" it was, then, if not "all" the time; it wouldn't have harmed you (if it is true). I wonder if I should start doubting you as well.

Gah, this game is crazy. I can very much realte with the sentiment that it'd be nice to double-lynch Shasta and Legate, but I also have sort of last-minute doubts. They are both acting so crazy that what if they're both innocent and the remaining wolves are, say, Pom, Pitch and Sally? Ugh. I'm thinking of going through what everybody said Nog, as a sort of pair for Legate's analysis, and hoping it would give us some hints.
Just a remark too - not sure if this is innocent Lommy (because it sounds completely like her) or evil Lommy trying to sound like innocent Lommy.

Zil's analysis of Shasta is very good, I suggest you people consider it (also in case I am no longer here toMorrow and he is).

Also, I believe the Acolyte is innocent in this game: the most plausible theory this far is that the Acolyte had to push somebody from the window at some point (maybe on Night 2, maybe on whenever they chose), and took that person's role. Eruhen was the ordo, so now the Acolyte would be just one of us. I think it makes perfect sense.

If it is last words, then:

Shasta looks bad, Boro also somewhat. If I am lynched, suggest keeping eye on them still.

Also definitely worth checking: Greenie, who is somehow sneakily drifting on the bottom, while casting the "right" (read: Steve before he proclaimed himself to be the Seer, yet if she was a Wolf, she could know he was innocent and could have recognized his really strong Nog-crusade as a Seer heading for a known Wolf; or now joining the bandwagon against me with the very slow steady slight steps by calling Shasta "too insane to be a Wolf", which hurts my feelings, since I believe if anyone did anything insane here, it was me).

Not sure about Lommy, slightly less sure about Sally than before. Others either go grey or innocent (our "knowns").

EDIT: x-ed with one Greenie

[Pomegranate]

Greenie: What happened to your vote-analysis?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I think it is clear whom I shall vote toDay in any case,

++Shasta

The tally this far, for the easy record:

Lottie => Legate
Inzil => Shasta
Sally => Legate (2)
Shasta => Legate (3)
Legate => Shasta (2)

Will be leaving the computer soon, but village, good luck to you still; and hope that in case you lynch me (although I would prefer not), you'd at least focus on the other targets with clearer mind. As we say in Khand, if only death can pay for life...

EDIT: x-ed with Nate

[Thinlómien]

Lottie doesn’t approve of Nog’s unoriginal random vote rant (#34). Later, she argues about random- vote rants with him (#83). Later, she makes a clarification about this to G55 (#95).

Pitch discusses the acolyte with Nog (#38). Later, he defends himself rather sharply against his accusations (#75). Defends/clarifies Lottie to him in (#77).

Legate makes a list and is not worried about Nog who looks like his “classic self” (#44). He also defends his and Nog’s random vote rants in relation to Bom’s vote (#117). He “thanks” Nog for bringing up G55’s name in the lynch discussion (#125).

Lommy wonders about Legate and Nog echoing her random vote rant (#51). In a list, she says he looks like “typical innocent Nogrod, almost too much so” (#57). Agrees and disagrees with his attack on G55 (#126).

Boro defends himself against Nog (#76).

Pom loves Nog’s phrasing and thinks he looks genuine despite a style she’s not familiar with (#80). Clarifies this later upon request (#131).

Shasta calls an early post of Nog’s well-written but empty (#109). Next, he disagrees with Nog’s defense of G55’s emotinal outburst and calls Nog’s behaviour in the issue a red flag. He thinks Nog is very unlike himself and thus suspicious, and he also talks about him/ replies to him about a few other things (all of this in #110). Makes a list and has Nog leaning guilty, admittedly mostly because of his relation with G55 (#112).

No mention about Nog: Greenie and Sally.

[A Little Green]

Greenie: What happened to your vote-analysis?Err - it kind of died. :o Meaning, I didn't have the time for it yesterDay after all, and woke up a bit too late to do it toDay. Now halfway through a Pitchalysis, hope to finish at least that before DL!

[Nerwen]

One hour to go. Chose well, my loyal subjects.

~The Empress's ghost.

[Thinlómien]

Oops, thanks to Greenie next to me on the sofa, I just realised there's just one more hour until the DL. I'll try to finish my analysis but also keep an eye on the current situation. Seems pretty sure either Legate or Shasta's going to die toDay and I'm not sure how I feel about it... maybe it will at least clarify stuff.

edit: xed with embarrassed Greenie and the Empress's ghost

[Pomegranate]

And Pitch: Looking back, you said YesterDay that you thought Legate's reaction on Steve's reveal made him in your eyes more trustworthy than not. Why did you not bring that up anymore today, when people started seriously doubting Legate?

x/ed with Lommy

[Eönwë]

Ok, Legate and Shasta, the great debate of toDay

So if I'm not mistaken, their main bit of clasing starts toDay. In his first post (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667714&postcount=301), Shasta completely attacks Legate, and by his next post (3 minutes later), he is already saying that: some things Legate have said have been so far off the mark and unlike how I know Legate to act that it's basically Nog vol. II to my eyes at the moment.

(That is to say, I thought Nog was suspicious for defending G55's outburst, in total counter to how he would normally act, and now Legate, normally quite sensible, has been acting very crazy.)
So basically, he starts the Day off by attacking Legate strongly. Also he gives it exactly two hours before he posts, so he could have easily written the first post in that time, but exactly two hours? Don't know whether that's enough to call it suspicious, but it could be a calculating wolf trying to make it look like he didn't write it at Night (i.e. avoiding the whole thing Nog tried to call G55 out on about being certain of living the next Day) , though I don't think Shasta would be that obvious. But the point is that he starts the Day with what could very well be a premeditated attack on Legate.

Then he claims that an innocent-looking (Acoording to him) post from Legate makes him actually look more guilty:
The main reason it caught my eye, actually, is how Legate can post well-thought-out points like this and at the same time be as wildly off-kilter as he has been? My overall conclusion on this is while the point makes him look slightly better, the dichotomy makes him look worse.

To which Legate responds:
Isn't it rather the sign of an innocent to have conflicting opinions about something? I mean, innocents, in contrary to some others, have no information whom to trust. I suspected Eönwë before, but I tried to post with the best intentions in mind, just as now. If you are following a certain pattern you set for yourself like a Wolf (e.g. "I will suspect person X, then I switch to person Y, then I will try to make the village lynch Z"), you usually post very "consistently" in the sense that all the time, the main intention sort of "behind" your behavior can be tracked as: "Yes, he wanted to lynch X." With innocent, the intention behind all the behavior should not be "He wanted to lynch X or Y", but "He wanted to do what was the best for the village from his current perspective." That's what I am doing. That's what I also often get suspected for.Now, I don't know, but this would be quite a risky wolf-on-wolf, considering that Shasta's essentially forcing Legate to explain why his behaviour isn't wolfy, and bringing up the idea that Legate could be faking suddenly. Legate's response could be either, since he could either be just talking about his experience, or be defending his current pretending-to-be-an-ordo style. And if the latter option is the case, considering Shasta as a wolf as well might be interesting in the sense that Shasta is calling out Legate on his bad disguise, or even giving Legate a chance to defend himself while making Shasta look good in the future because he's accusing him. Risky, though. Of course, they could just both be Ordos arguing over playing styles.

Legate's same post starts with this:
Okay - on general evaluation of what's happened toDay, I am growing steadily more suspicious of Shasta. It's not about his way of arguing, which is faulty in many ways (like many have already mentioned - e.g. the "Eonwe was not suspected yesterDay enough..." I can vouch for myself that I indeed had suspected him, and I recall there were many others) - that does not necessarily say anything about guilt; but mostly the fact that he had pushed for a second lynch going at the same point yesterDay with Steve, therefore threatening to threaten him (to make a double lynch). To which Shasta responds with: I already pointed out how much rubbish this point is. In fact, since I voted Inzil, I'd be very interested to hear how I supposedly threatened Eonwe yesterday.

I don't want to think I'm basically OMGUSing Legate here - I might be, certainly, but he's seemed completely (not a bit, not some, pretty much completely) off to me since the beginning.

----Ok, so here I will make a note to myself and others reading this to see what Shasta said about Legate before toDay, and vice versa. Now, onwards.


Then Legate responds:
Maybe I did not word it very well this time - but you were offering ground for double-lynch in any case, be the other subject Eonwe or Zil. In any case, it would still not be good for the village - only leave the uncertainity for the future. And also (I don't know how exactly was the voting around that time you were proposing that, or when you voted), if there were still some Wolves left to vote after you, with enough numbers, they could still do a double-lynch in that way. That's of course probably unlikely, but the general point is that splitting the vote (especially for somebody completely random) was not exactly helpful in that situation.
And to the last bit of Shasta's previous post:How nice. I, on the other hand, thought initially you were pretty good. To which Shasta responds:Wrong. I never said I wanted to lynch Eonwe, in fact I never mentioned him in the slightest. Why would I want to lynch the Seer, in any case? Yes, I mentioned that a double lynch of Inzil and Nog might be a good idea, after someone mentioned it (I'd originally forgotten about double lynches at all), but how would that have "left uncertainty"? Nog would have been just as dead. Your other point is still not very good - I already gave you the numbers to prove that even if it had been possible for the wolves to double-lynch Eonwe, they all would have been revealed after that and the game would be over! See, Legate, you keep trying to make this into a reason that I'm suspicious and it's just not working. That's what I mean about how completely off you are. I didn't mean to insult you or anything, if that's what you thought (as your last comment leads me to believe.) I will just point out that I was the one who originally mention double lynching, but only because I was arguing against it because that's what I thought Shasta was after yesterDay. Make of the rest what you will.

Then:
Not taking it as insult, never mind then. But okay, then tell me clearly: first you did not plan to make it double-lynch, then you did, so can you go over it once again - what exactly had you intended? Did you intend to make a double-lynch (of Zil and Nog), then? Why exactly, i.e. what good would it be? Also, how did you hope to achieve that? What if one got one more vote than the other? What would you think if only Nog was lynched? What would you think if only Zil was lynched? Had you considered those two possibilities at all? Answering shortly, briefly in points is fine, if I can ask you for that...

And anyway, yes, I am willing to see also something more - something else - from you to make me evaluate you better. E.g. if you list briefly whom do you currently suspect and why... or whom do you trust the most and why...
So Legate ignores the reality and shapes it into his own in order to attack Shasta,since it's pretty clear what Shasta was planning- just to lynch Zil. Of course, that's pretty bad in itself, but misrepresenting it... But maybe if they're both wovles Legate's just giving Shasta a chance to explain himself again, which he does. In a lot of detail:
I sense the beginnings of a witchhunt, but fine, I'll answer.

I had originally forgotten about the fact that we could double lynch - I wanted Zil gone over Nog because I felt both were bad for the innocents, but killing Inzil would have dropped the nightkills from two to one (I still thought the Acolyte was going to kill the next night.) Then, after I voted, the idea of a double lynch was mentioned, which I thought was a fine idea - kill both with one lynch.

Sidenote, Legate - it was not going to be very easy to make a double-lynch all by my lonesome, as you're implying. I knew Nog had four or five votes by then and I knew no one else had voted Inzil, but I figured it was worth a shot, and if I didn't manage it then Nog would be lynched anyway and that'd be one baddie down.
Did you intend to make a double-lynch (of Zil and Nog), then?
Had it been possible, yes. Once Lommy voted right after me, though, I didn't really think it was possible. Still, since there wasn't a vote tally up and I wasn't sure how many more votes were coming in, I felt like there was still a chance and I urged people to consider it.
Why exactly, i.e. what good would it be?
Seriously? We'd be getting rid of a wolf and the Acolyte, who I thought (and still think) was dangerous.
Also, how did you hope to achieve that?
If you're asking me this, then you're implying there wasn't a way to achieve that, which means your point about me endangering Eonwe, is, like I said, pretty leaky. That said, I'll answer - it would have required the cooperation of the people after me to vote; like I said, once Lommy voted I figured the chances were slim, but there was no harm in trying.
What if one got one more vote than the other? What would you think if only Nog was lynched? What would you think if only Zil was lynched? Had you considered those two possibilities at all?
What about it? In my view, either way we were getting rid of someone who was a danger to the village. If Nog was lynched, fine - we'd gotten rid of a wolf. If Zil went instead, that was fine too - that'd be the end of the Acolyte and we could lynch Nog the next day; if Eonwe had managed to find another wolf with his dream, we could just double-lynch them, so we weren't even losing any time.

Who do I suspect? You, currently. Boro, because I think he was bussing Nog. Inzil I still suspect of Acolyte-ism, but I don't think he's a wolf, unless his "lynch me instead of Eonwe" yesterday was just a very clever wolf-front. I still have some suspicions of Lommy as well.

If you're asking me this, then you're implying there wasn't a way to achieve that, which means your point about me endangering Eonwe, is, like I said, pretty leaky. That said, I'll answer - it would have required the cooperation of the people after me to vote; like I said, once Lommy voted I figured the chances were slim, but there was no harm in trying.Wait a second and stop presuming. I was asking exactly and only what I had asked - because it is NOT easy to achieve a double-lynch. I assumed there WAS a way to achieve that according to you, otherwise you wouldn't have proposed it, obviously. Therefore, I wanted to hear about it.

These were only questions, and completely "freely" phrased - a mere civilized way to ask you about something. Yet you are answering with rather defensive and sort of jumpy way at some moments. In contrary to what you say, I have *no* intention to lynch you for the sake of itself. But at least on first sight, I can't help to think you are making stuff up, or clutching to some pre-made points of your own.

I had originally forgotten about the fact that we could double lynch - I wanted Zil gone over Nog because I felt both were bad for the innocents, but killing Inzil would have dropped the nightkills from two to one (I still thought the Acolyte was going to kill the next night.) Then, after I voted, the idea of a double lynch was mentioned, which I thought was a fine idea - kill both with one lynch.

This in particular sounds rather fabricated. And the whole Acolyte thing of yours is just weird - I mean, if you are innocent, then I suggest checking whether you aren't simply paranoid. I understand it might be good to talk about the Acolyte if nobody seems to worry about it, but nowhere was written that Acolyte is evil. Nowhere was written that even if he was, he's killing every Night. (Yes, I know, no need to repeat your thoughts on the matter, I've read them several times already, just stating this for the sake of completion.) Nowhere was written that even if all that was so, Zil was the Acolyte. I.e.: Your idea - as you claim it was - of making a double-lynch, or lynching Zil over Nog, was based on the possibility that Zil was the Acolyte, on top of that evil Acolyte, on top of that that the Acolyte is killing people and therefore it is better to kill him than Nog. My motto is "never tell me the odds" and I am against all maths and all that, but seriously, the chance that even if you were right about the role that you would actually even lynch the real Acolyte was far lesser than that you would help the village to achieve something by lynching Nog. Also, if you indeed are innocent and interested in the good of the village - had it never occured to you that the game would be imbalanced like Angband if there was just another evil every-Night-killer? Even if he were to choose his side in the beginning, such a role would really be completely over the top.

I think we have (and you have also answered about it to others many times) been talking this over many times, so I think we can drop the subject, there is probably nothing much new to add anymore (unless, Shasta, you have something that you haven't said yet to comment on what I just said, of course). But it helped me to hear all your arguments in some clearer order, and the basic impression I have about you right now is that of being somewhat suspicious. Based on that if I compare the possibility that you sincerely were thinking the thing you are now telling us you were thinking, and the possibility that you were thinking something completely different and are just making this all up now that you had to answer about it to other people, I must say the other one sounds far more probable and logical. Of course, the question is then what did you really think in case what you are saying is fabricated - since I am not sure if, as a Wolf, you'd believe you could pull that off (saving Nog, that is, or evening the odds by double-lynching him in case Zil is innocent). Of course that's already second rather daring move you'd do in this game (after Day 1 Bom lynch), so if you believed you could pull that off again? Anyway, will be looking at what else you are going to post toDay.
While the first paragraph seems pretty reasonable (other than the "this is fabricated"), the second seems pretty bad. I mean, he's basically just saying that Shasta's lying about what he thought yesterDay based on things now, which is clearly not true when that is basically what Shasta said yesterDay. Whether he was lying or not then is another matter, but Legate seems to want to draw attention to this. I don't think this would happen if Legate were a wolf and Shasta an innocent, as he's be more careful (hopefully), and since I suspect Legate and it seems pretty likely he's going to die, it might just be Legate again trying to make Shasta seem attacked unjustly, so that when he dies, at least Shasta looks good. While before he was supporting him (or se he claims with the "I liked you earlier on"), now he knows that he has to throw Shasta as far away as possible from him in order to make him look good.
I would like to also take a look at other people, but the best would be to see somebody else post as well...
So now he's making it look like this fight was unintentional, but was it really? I mean, he's trying to play it down with this bit, and I don't like it when it's clearly taken up most of Legate's posts today.

Shasta's response:"Defensive." "Jumpy." "Making stuff up." What did I tell you? Witchhunt. :rolleyes: All me answering your questions did was give you more fodder for your witchhunt against me, because all you've mentioned are opinions that are designed to look like hard suspicions. Look at this - And in regards to fabrication:Now, you say this sounds fabricated. Obviously there's nothing I can say to that, since it's not fabricated. But it gives you an easy way to continue to suspect me, doesn't it?

I'm going to skip over all the bit about the Acolyte because it's clear that, whether you're innocent or evil, we just flat are not going to agree where he's concerned.and also:
This is just the same point, restated in order to make it look like you have a bigger argument against me than you already do. Also, I said basically the same thing earlier in the day when I replied to Pom, so there's further proof I didn't make it all up just now. So again, Shasta is giving his proof again that he thought so yesterDay. So even though his points were bad, surely the fact that he thought them yesterDay make them better, right? Right? No.

Legate responds:
I was afraid you will say something like this, and therefore I am not talking anymore to you about this, because you are convinced I am evilly trying to frame you, which I said already last time I am not. So until you are willing to reevaluate and reconsiderate the possibility that it is not so, the debate makes no sense. If you have pre-determined opinions, you can hardly believe you are deciding objectively (or, as much "objectively" as one can). That is not asking you to stop suspecting me, by any means, but merely appeal to bring that to your attention that it might not be as you project - at least on the level of discussion. If you are innocent, I am warning you that you are having a tunnel vision in that I am writing everything with some evil intent. Your unwillingness to acknowledge this thus far (despite me telling this to you already before, only in different words) makes me only support my belief. And no, that is not predetermined answer (as you would most likely say based on how you've been reacting this far), but direct response based on this and only this reaction of yours. In case you are a Wolf (which I now believe), it of course makes perfect sense, because you try to disqualify suspicions against yourself (or pass it on me, if you can, even better). For the first time, this in some ways makes Legate look actually genuine. Though of course that doesn't change anything between the two of them, and if they are both wolves it could be Legate warning Shasta that he's seemed to focused on this toDay.

For further reference: If Shasta is really a Wolf, this makes Nate look rather good in my book. However, in case he wasn't, then if Nate was a Wolf instead, it would be very nasty way to connect two innocents.Trying to implicate Pom if Shasta turns out to be evil, or just a genuine statement (doesn't make him not a wolf- in fact, it would be good for him to make some points that are good for the village.






So yeah, here ends their discussion (it just fizzles out there). Now, I was looking at it from the possibility of it being two wolves.

Innocent vsInnocent: Could very well be the case considering just their discussion, but since I already find Legate very suspicious based on other things, I'm inclined not to believe this.

Wolf-Legate vs Innocent-Shasta: Could have a case made for it because of the way Legate stretches his points, but on the other hand I don't think a wolvish Legate would be so uncareful. Shasta would just be defensive here, which seems about right. But the actual content of his posts and focus on the acolyte instead of the wolves seems bad. But that's not in the context of this discussion.

Innocent-Legate vs Wolf-Shasta: Could explain some of the less careful arguments against Shasta, but then why would he be so certain and just throw in as much as possible? And I find it hard to see Legate being innocent.

Wolf vs Wolf: I'm warming up towards this idea. I mean, they both seem suspicious for their own reasons, and this thing could potentially make either of them look very good if the other turns out to be a wolf. Very risky, but the rewards are great enough when they're both being so suspected.

edit: x-ed since Greenie's return

[A Little Green]

PITCHWIFE

Day 1

- acolyte speculation
- more acolyte speculation; comments on the Zil-Legate-issue in some length but says both look innocent; more or less frowns at Steve for doing the exact same thing he himself does in this post:

I don't like how people regurgitate it now and pile onto an easy suspicion (people meaning Rikae and Eönwë - especially Eönwë who complains about 'people' [no names given] 'bandwaggoning on that discussion' while doing it himself).
- thinks Gal's outburst against Rikae feels genuine; further commentary on the Legate-Zil-issue
- disagrees with Nog and tries to clear up some confusion between Lottie and Lommy about some post of Zil's:

No, what Lottie is saying is that Zil's post that followed hers didn't have anything to do with her poke/attack/whateveryouwannacallit, unlike Lommy had supposed.

FWIW, I was mildly annoyed by Lottie's failure to get my sarcasm, but I didn't think of it as an "attack" until Lommy, ironically, blew it up into one.

In which way would you say has Lottie acted like a bold wolf? I fail to see where she's done anything particularly bold yet. Quite a lot of concentration on Lottie in this one.

- Disagrees with Eonwe about Zil-Legate-issue; defends Zil; votes Eonwe:

No, it doesn't, but poking someone again and again over a point so you can then complain that he's "reiterating his side" and starting a pointless discussion doesn't look particularly innocent either. OK, Legate did the poking and you the complaining, but you're using the controversy between them to paint Zil as suspicious by blaming the whole controversy on him, while it took two to keep it going. If you think this is misrepresenting you, so be it, but it's the best I have toDay.

++ Eönwë

In other news, I'm not happy with Bom's Nilp-vote, quite happy with Lottie's rant defending herself against Nog, a little puzzled by this sudden Lommywagon, and too pressed for time to make up my mind about the rest. Á vala Melkor!


Day 2

Three of us dead already, and the hunter among them? Blargh.
I always mistrust comments like this; just doesn't look genuine to me.

- complains about Bom-lynch and accuses Nog and Legate (and Lommy) of hypocrisy
- finds Rikae's hunter hint of ”logical” and ”made himself a target”; thinks Inzil was Rikae's likeliest pick and therefore probably innocent; confused about wabbits and coyotes
- says it matters whether the Bomwagon was initiated by Nog or Shasta
- further comments on Nog and Legate's hypocrisy re. Bom, is willing to excuse Lommy because she was under threat of lynching
- turns from Nog to Eonwe:

Eönwë's analysis of evil!Nogrod as the orchestrator of the Bomwagon would be a lot more convincing if he hadn't voted Bom himself, dropping all his prior suspicions; pointing the finger at Nog now and saying "He made me do it!" is a bit rich, isn't it? I was rather suspicious of Nog myself early in the Day, but this actually makes me doubt it.

- argues with Nog a bit:

Try to make up your mind whether I'm being "wise with hindsight", as you said earlier, or had wolvish knowledge in advance, will you? And if you think the latter, then say it instead of just throwing insinuating coughs my way.

- further disagrees with Nog about hunter hints
- reaction to Eonwe's reveal:

Oops, that changes things quite a bit. I'm trusting Eönwë's dream - in part because it explains the single-minded, aggressive way he's gone after Nog toDay, but mostly because it would be suicide for him if Nog turned out innocent, and I know he's too clever for that.

That said, I don't see Legate's initial reluctance to fall out of his chair trusting Eönwë as suspicious, but rather a point in his favour. Has everybody forgotten that for all we know, the Acolyte may get dreams as well and, whether xe works with the wolves or on their own, is by all evidence not on our side?

That's not saying Eönwë can't be our genuine seer, of course, but the possibility that he's something else should at least be considered - unless of course you know he's not the Acolyte; which makes me have worrisome thoughts about Zil's eagerness to accept his reveal.

But whatever Eönwë is, it doesn't change the fact that he'd be mad to claim a false dream. Therefore, for toDay:

++Nog

Day 3

- tries to make Inzil see that it's understandable that people see him as the acolyte; dislikes Shasta's idea of killing the suspected acolyte Zil
- disagrees with Shasta about whether Eonwe was under sufficient suspicion for his reveal to be justifiable (being of the opinion that the reveal was reasonable in that situation)
- says it looks like Legate is trying to deflect suspicion of himself onto Shasta
- says Sally is being reasonable but playing with the acolyte role
- reaction to Inzil's innocence:
Thank you, that simplifies things.

But tell me one thing: if you already dreamed Nog on Night 1 and knew from the beginning that he was a wolf, why on Earth did you join his and Shasta's "lynch Bom" initiative?

I fully understand that you didn't attack him on Day 1, but to actually vote with a known wolf against an unknown?

Conclusions?
A lot of what Pitch has been doing has been clarifying things and trying to settle conflicts. But for all that, he's been quite sharp and his reactions to the reveals (first Nog, then Inzil) look innocentish to me. What has ben called his "moral highground" re. Bom-lynch could easily be a Pitchwolf smelling easy cannon-fodder, though.
Still, my overall feeling is leaning more innocent than not.

[Eönwë]

Also, as for Shasta being a wolf, I don't know why one would cling to the acolyte thing when it was clear that Nog (who was the main advocator of it) was going down, and would get linked to it. On the other hand, there's refuge in boldness, and he might have hoped it would make him seem more innocent. I don't know.

[Eönwë]

But tell me one thing: if you already dreamed Nog on Night 1 and knew from the beginning that he was a wolf, why on Earth did you join his and Shasta's "lynch Bom" initiative?
:o
I didn't get a chance to properly read the thread before voting, so I didn't realise it originated at Nog. That's why when I saw it, and saw how easily it caught the village, I felt I had to attack him before he could cause any more damage, which was probably a bit of a (read: very much a) rash decision.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Also, as for Shasta being a wolf, I don't know why one would cling to the acolyte thing when it was clear that Nog (who was the main advocator of it) was going down, and would get linked to it. On the other hand, there's refuge in boldness, and he might have hoped it would make him seem more innocent. I don't know.

The other possibility (what I thought) would be simply that once he had decided to do it, he could not back away (people would call him inconsistent). I.e. he decided to "side with Nog" on the Acolyte business (or anyway, not side, but back up the idea himself), so he is just clinging to it.

But now I am really going - so vote well, village!

[Eönwë]

Also, if both Legate and Shasta turn out to be evil, what does that say about Boro? Would that be worth the risk?

[Eönwë]

And the fact that Legate seems pretty resigned about his fate worries me. I mean, whatever he is, he should probably fight. Unless he thinks that his resigned innocent persona seems good enough and that he's sowed enough suspicion that Shasta might get killed instead,

[Eönwë]

Here's the vote count, and now I'm going to work on a list of the living.

Lottie => Legate
Inzil => Shasta
Sally => Legate (2)
Shasta => Legate (3)
Legate => Shasta (2)

[A Little Green]

Boro - Half the time, I'm convinced he's evil; the other half, I'm convinced he's innocent. I still seem to recall something about Nog's wolvery making him look good, but I've no idea what that was! And, sadly, no time to check.

Sally - I don't remember much of who she's suspected (except for her summary of suspecting all the gifteds and one wolf); voted Eonwe Day 1 and Nog Day 2, I don't remember her reasons for voting Eonwe and again, no time to check. I like that she's getting into more of a serious mode, but I still don't have a read on her.

Shasta - I already said this, but he'd have to be totally insane to try all he's trying as a wolf. Just - totally insane. I don't want to lynch him toDay.

Nate - I'd love to take a better look at her, actually. She's sharp and nice, but a wolf can be both of those, too. The only thing I remember clearly is her pretty consistent pursuit of Legate; a bit too consistent and serious for wolf-on-wolf, methinks, so if Legate turns out evil Nate will look better.

Pitchwife - Going through his posts made me feel pretty good about him.

Lottie - Completely under my radar, actually! Which is pretty alarming. Will definitely take a look at her toMorrow.

Lommy! - I'm feeling rather good about her, too; definitely leaning innocent.

Legate - He's just - off the wall. Really. If he isn't a wolf, I bet he's making them really happy at the moment. I think he might be our best bet toDay - he's a likely wolf candidate, and in any case if he isn't lynched toDay he's likely to be the topic of all discussion toMorrow too.

Steve and Inzil don't get on the list. Sorry, sweeties.


EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Pomegranate]

To avoid the last minute mess:

++Legate

I suspected you on the day one already (after Shasta analyzed you, actually). Posted on that on day two. And your reaction to Steve was really weird. To be honest, after all this mess I am not that sure anymore, somehow all this fighting makes me confused (it might also be fever...), but you're the best I have, and if you happen to be innocent after all, it's going to give the village a lot to think about.

x/ed with Greenie and three Eonwes

[Boromir88]

Also, if both Legate and Shasta turn out to be evil, what does that say about Boro? Would that be worth the risk?

He is present/set alarm to get last words/ideas. It appears something's happened to Shasta...as in, where is he?

[Pitchwife]

And Pitch: Looking back, you said YesterDay that you thought Legate's reaction on Steve's reveal made him in your eyes more trustworthy than not. Why did you not bring that up anymore today, when people started seriously doubting Legate?

I was getting to that.

I thought yesterDay that Legate could have had a good reason for his reaction to Eönwë's reveal (i.e. that Eönwë could conceivably be an Acolyte who gets a kill one Night, a dream the next etc.), but by his own words that hadn't occurred to him until I suggested it. Going back and rereading his posts, I also notice that his wording was too strong to express mere reasonable doubt:
I am rather convinced, now thinking about it more and more, that Eönwë is just fake. A rather not very well done Wolfy Seer-revelation-attempt
OK, elsewhere in the same post he says "It is of course still possible he is not lying", but this sounds like an attempt to discredit Eönwë at any cost. There's also his insistence that Eönwë should reveal his dreamed ordo, which would only have given the wolves a second best choice of kill in lieu of the (most likely protected) seer. All this does not look good.

What could speak for him is that he began to revise his position in #248 before other people began to suspect him (up to this it had been between him, Nog and Zil). But maybe he just realized that going all out against a revealed seer would get him into trouble.

I'm genuinely puzzled by him, because honestly, the way he's played doesn't make much sense either for an innocent Legate or for a wolf-Legate, but all in all, he does look more bad than good.

[Eönwë]

Ok, I will even things up with:

++Shasta

I'm not sure any more what I think, but here we go.

edit: x-ed with Pom. Ok, not even then.

[Nerwen]

Fifteen minutes.

[A Little Green]

I'm genuinely puzzled by him, because honestly, the way he's played doesn't make much sense either for an innocent Legate or for a wolf-Legate, but all in all, he does look more bad than good.Which is more or less spot-on what I feel. But since I think he's a better choice than Shasta, and since bringing in a third candidate (and who would that be, anyway?) at this point would be insane considering the risk of a double-lynch, I think I'll have to go with

++ Legate


EDIT: x-ed with Steve and the esteemed mod-goddess

[Pitchwife]

And for the record, I'm far from at ease about Shasta either, but don't suspect him that much yet that I'd be comfortable with a double lynch, even if we had the numbers to afford it. We can worry about him toMorrow.

For toDay,
++Legate


EDIT: x-ed from Eönwë to Greenie.

[A Little Green]

Legate 5, Shasta 3, right?


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch, whih makes it Legate 6 and Shasta 3 if I'm correct

[Thinlómien]

Gah. Legate looks very suspicious in all other regards, except I can't see why a wolf-Legate wouldn't believe Eönwë's reveal. It seems suicidal.

edit: xed with 2 posts

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

And the fact that Legate seems pretty resigned about his fate worries me. I mean, whatever he is, he should probably fight. Unless he thinks that his resigned innocent persona seems good enough and that he's sowed enough suspicion that Shasta might get killed instead,
What do you think I've been doing all day? Nobody probably just bothers to read it. All my calls at the innocents, urges for them to put the blindfolds off their eyes. Predetermined that I am evil, therefore interpreting everything in the worst light, not even considering the other might be possible. But yeah, at least if I am lynched, I hope it will clear the air, to whatever my fate is... just don't let others off the hook (my post just two above or something).

Legate - He's just - off the wall. Really. If he isn't a wolf, I bet he's making them really happy at the moment. I think he might be our best bet toDay - he's a likely wolf candidate, and in any case if he isn't lynched toDay he's likely to be the topic of all discussion toMorrow too.
I bet the WWs ARE happy right now, and if that's a subtle way of saying "you're making ME in particular happy", thank you, you're welcome...

I thought yesterDay that Legate could have had a good reason for his reaction to Eönwë's reveal (i.e. that Eönwë could conceivably be an Acolyte who gets a kill one Night, a dream the next etc.), but by his own words that hadn't occurred to him until I suggested it.
Yes, also consider: why would I confess that I thought of that only after you posted it if I was a Wolf? It would've been far easier to say "yeah, Pitch, that's exactly what I had in mind" and be done with it. Nobody has been seriously considering how much of things I have done which would be illogical if I was a Wolf.

My bus going. Bye!

(xed with all votes)

[Pomegranate]

Which is more or less spot-on what I feel. But since I think he's a better choice than Shasta, and since bringing in a third candidate (and who would that be, anyway?) at this point would be insane considering the risk of a double-lynch, I think I'll have to go with

++ Legate


EDIT: x-ed with Steve and the esteemed mod-goddess

Actually, my thoughts exactly. Including the comment on the quote. Weird, as I said. But we will see I guess.

xed with Legate

[Boromir88]

Legate 5, Shasta 3, right?


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch, whih makes it Legate 6 and Shasta 3 if I'm correct

Yes, with apparently Lommy and I left, I believe. Shasta appears not to be here.

[Nerwen]

The votes:

Lottie ––> Legate
Inzil ––> Shasta
Sally ––> Legate (2)
Shasta ––> Legate (3)
Legate ––> Shasta (2)
Pom ––> Legate (4)
Steve ––> Shasta (3)
Greenie ––> Legate (5)
Pitch ––> Legate (6)

[Thinlómien]

Okay let's do it:

++ Legate

Just for the record, I will finish and post my analysis toMorrow. This far I must say Pitch and Shasta look like unlikely packmates of Nog, more or less everyone else looks more or less likely.


edit: xed with a lot

[Eönwë]

Boromir88 - I don't know. Something about him seems a bit off, but he seems to speak sense. But isn't he more vocal usually? Why is he so quiet?

Sally - At first I was leaning guilty, now I'm leaning innocent. She hasn't posted enough. It's more recappy like Shasta did on Day 1, which isn't really a good measure of good or bad.

Shasta - Crazy. About as crazy as Legate. And he worries me.

Pomegranate - I still find her sharp and innocent.

A Little Green - She is far too deep under my radar. So she worries me.

Pitchwife - I've been flip-flopping on him the whole game. At first he seemed dark and evil, then good, and now I'm uncertain again.

Lottie - The only reason I don't have a strong feeling of her innocence is her lack of posts. And that's a big reason, because she's usually pretty vocal.

Inziladun- Obviously, he's innocent.

Lommy - If Legate turns out to be evil, she needs to be re-evaluated, because she would seem pretty bad in that case. If not, I don't know.

Legate of Amon Lanc - Weird, crazy, evil. Maybe. Some of his most recent posts have started to look relatively genuine, which worries me. But I think he's done enough to condemn him.


So basically, now I suspect everyone except for Zil and Pom, and Lottie to a lesser extent.

[Boromir88]

Ok then, Lets do this.

++Legate

Edit: crossed with Lommy and Eonwe

[A Little Green]

I bet the WWs ARE happy right now, and if that's a subtle way of saying "you're making ME in particular happy", thank you, you're welcome...You should see me now. I'm pretty far from happy, believe me.


EDIT: x-ed with Steve and Boro

[Nerwen]

The votes:

Lottie ––> Legate
Inzil ––> Shasta
Sally ––> Legate (2)
Shasta ––> Legate (3)
Legate ––> Shasta (2)
Pom ––> Legate (4)
Steve ––> Shasta (3)
Greenie ––> Legate (5)
Pitch ––> Legate (6)
Lommy ––> Legate (7)
Boro ––> Legate (8)

Ooo, I can't remember when I last witnessed such a huge bandwaggon!:smokin:

[Thinlómien]

Moddess, you are horrible, also your narration says it's Day4 now although it's Day3, and this confused me. :p

[Eönwë]

When that I was and a little tiny boy,
With hey, ho, the wind and the sun,
A foolish thing was but a toy,
For the sun it burneth every day.
But when I came to Harad's lands,
With hey, ho, the the wind and the sun
'Gainst Northern spies we made our bands,
For the sun it burneth every day.
But when I revealed where my heart does lie,
With hey, ho, the wind and the sun.
I could see that I was soon to die,
For the sun it burneth every day.
A great while ago the world begun,
With hey, ho, the wind and the sun,
But that's all one, my time is done,
And we'll strive for Sauron every day.

[Nerwen]

Deadline. No more posting.

Edit: Legate, of course, has been lynched by eight votes to three. Narration to follow.

[Nerwen]

The survivors were not sure whether to mourn G55 or rejoice that a spy had been caught. Strangely, though, the talk again soon turned to the Acolyte. Shasta was particularly determined to rout this mysterious individual.

"Why are you so sure the Acolyte must be evil?" asked the Legate of Khand suspiciously. "And why did you suggest a double-killing yesterday?"

"I sense the beginnings of a witch-hunt!" snarled Shasta. "What about you, Easterling? Why wouldn't you believe the Envoy? Spy!"

By the end of the day Guard-lieutenant Shasta and the Legate of Khand had all but come to blows, shouting insults and accusations at one another while the rest looked on in bewilderment.

"My Master has, as yet, granted me no insight into either of these two," said the Envoy, "but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them's a spy. Or even both."

There was some talk of killing the pair of them, but after some debate it was generally decided that Shasta looked the better of the two, and that it was Legate alone who must die. It only remained to think of an appropriate method of execution.

I know," said one among the company– they were never afterwards sure who– "This Legate claims to be an Easterling, does he not? Well, then– think of the Wainriders!"

It took the others only moments to grasp the possibilities of the idea. Boro volunteered the large, heavy cart he used for his charges' fodder, and, once Legate had been tied up and placed in the middle of the main courtyard, the company got together and gave the vehicle a hearty push. The huge waggon trundled slowly, inexorably forward. The crunching and squelching it made going over the Easterling's helpless body could not be drowned out even by his frightful dying screams.

The waggon rolled on with bloody wheels, coming to a gradual halt at the far side of the courtyard.

The crushed and mangled thing it left in its wake was barely recognisable as Legate. The others waited around it as the shades of evening fell, hoping against hope for some sign, for the barest hint of a magical change.

They were to be disappointed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Living
Boromir88 –Wealthy mûmak breeder.
Sally –Messenger girl.
Shasta –Particularly attentive guard-lieutenant.
Steve –Court Jester (from Umbar).
Pomegranate –Entertainer.
A Little Green –The Empress's favourite snake-charmer.
Pitchwife –Captain in the "Provisional Royal Númenórean Navy" and emissary of Angamaitë IX, Lord of Umbar.
Lottie –Accident-prone sorcerer's apprentice.
Inziladun –Minister of the Treasury.
Lommy! –Court physician.


Dead
The Empress of Harad. Mod. –assassinated in her sleep.
Bom Tombadillo –Greatly afflicted beggar. Ordo. –multiple stab wounds.
Eruhen –Court eunuch. Ordo. –burned to death on the Empress's funeral pyre.
Rikae –Empress's handmaiden. Royal Executioner. –garotted with own wire.
Nogrod –Camel and coffee trader. Spy. –poisoned with own merchandise.
Galadriel55 –Professional assassin. Captain of the Guard. –neck broken in stairwell fight.
Legate of Amon Lanc –Legate of Khand. Ordo. –crushed to death by an enormous waggon.

Night Four has begun.

[Nerwen]

"Come in, come in," said the Envoy of Mordor. "I have been expecting you."

"You have?"

The Envoy smiled. It was not a very nice smile, but his visitor had the sense it was doing its best. "Why, what sort of magician would I be if I had not? I dreamed of you tonight. I know who you are and why you are here– young Acolyte. Come, and I will teach you, as the Empress commanded."

The Acolyte shuffled uncomfortably on the threshold. "Well, I'm not sure if I– that is, I–"

"I know, I know– I saw it all in your mind. You have doubts. You are loyal to your own people, and hate the Men of Gondor– as who does not?— yet you have unfortunately been led astray by some of the more absurd stories about my Master. Ha! Ha!" –here he laughed in a not-terribly-convincing manner– "it really is astonishing, the things people will believe! Still, desperate times call for desperate measures, and I am willing to take the risk. Luck is on our side tonight anyway– these craven Elf-friends clearly have not the courage to make an attempt on my life yet, so there is time."

The Envoy instructed his new pupil for several hours, exclaiming frequently at the speed with which the Haradian picked up the rudiments of sorcery.

"There's one thing I'm curious about," the Black Númenórean said in a moment of relaxation, between sips of fine coffee (certainly not Nogrod's). "Did you kill Eruhen? You needn't be afraid to tell me– I never liked him, you know."

"Well, I–" the Acolyte began.

"Wait!" said the Envoy, holding up a hand. In a moment the Acolyte heard it too: the sound of soft footsteps– they seemed to be made by two or three pairs of feet– coming up the stairs. Then there was silence, broken only by a faint whispering outside the door.

The Envoy's grey eyes slitted. "It seems our lesson is to be interrupted after all." He led the Acolyte to the room's one window. "One at least of us must survive. You have learned quicker than I thought possible– and I am confident now you will choose the right path."

"But what about you?"

"Me? Oh, it will be enough if I can take this–" the Envoy's face twisted into a snarl, "this Gondorian rabble with me!" He drew a black, evil-looking dagger, worked with strange symbols around the hilt.

As the Acolyte hesitated on the sill, nervous of the longish drop to the ground, the door shuddered under a rain of heavy blows.

"Go!" screamed the Envoy. Even as the Acolyte jumped, the door crashed open, and three figures burst into the room, swords drawn. (The Acolyte did not have time to make out their features.)

Winded by the fall, the Acolyte could only gasp for breath and listen to the sounds coming from above– battle cries and curses in several languages, screams, the clash of steel, the strange burning and sizzling noises as the Envoy threw his magic into the fray.

All was quiet by the time the Acolyte had recovered enough to creep indoors, and peer cautiously around a corner at the staircase– which three figures were even then descending.

The Acolyte fled, but not before hearing them say to one another, "What a fight that foul sorcerer put up– but our victory is all the sweeter. Nogrod is avenged at last!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Living
Boromir88 –Wealthy mûmak breeder.
Sally –Messenger girl.
Shasta –Particularly attentive guard-lieutenant.
Pomegranate –Entertainer.
A Little Green –The Empress's favourite snake-charmer.
Pitchwife –Captain in the "Provisional Royal Númenórean Navy" and emissary of Angamaitë IX, Lord of Umbar.
Lottie –Accident-prone sorcerer's apprentice.
Inziladun –Minister of the Treasury.
Lommy! –Court physician.


Dead
The Empress of Harad. Mod. –assassinated in her sleep.
Bom Tombadillo –Greatly afflicted beggar. Ordo. –multiple stab wounds.
Eruhen –Court eunuch. Ordo. –burned to death on the Empress's funeral pyre.
Rikae –Empress's handmaiden. Royal Executioner. –garotted with own wire.
Nogrod –Camel and coffee trader. Spy. –poisoned with own merchandise.
Galadriel55 –Professional assassin. Captain of the Guard. –neck broken in stairwell fight.
Legate of Amon Lanc –Legate of Khand. Ordo. –crushed to death by an enormous waggon.
Steve –Court Jester (from Umbar). Envoy of Morder. –sliced up by the spies on Night Four.

Day Four has begun.

[Thinlómien]

Ok, since assumedly Eönwë is no more, we have:

Boromir88 –Wealthy mûmak breeder.
Sally –Messenger girl.
Shasta –Particularly attentive guard-lieutenant.
Pomegranate –Entertainer.
A Little Green –The Empress's favourite snake-charmer.
Pitchwife –Captain in the "Provisional Royal Númenórean Navy" and emissary of Angamaitë IX, Lord of Umbar.
Lottie –Accident-prone sorcerer's apprentice.
Inziladun –Minister of the Treasury.
Lommy! –Court physician.

Out of which Zil and four others are ordos, three are wolves and one is the acolyte. Since the acolyte doesn't count in the tally, this means that if we lynch an innocent toDay and another (presumably Zil) dies during the Night, it's three ordos, three wolves and the acolyte toMorrow, which means the wolves win, unless the acolyte has some superpowers and is willing to use them from the village benefit, but let's not assume that.

So we basically have to lynch a wolf toDay. This means we should think at least twice before we vote toDay.

I'm going to finish my analysis from yesterDay now.

Also I just looked at the vote tally and only our known innocents (Steve, Zil and Legate) voted Shasta, everybody else voted Legate. It would be tempting to conclude Shasta's guilt from this, but we can afford knee-jerk thinking toDay.

[Pomegranate]

Agh. And I felt so smart suspecting the same person three days in a row, just to find out that despite everything I thought had to mean he was a wolf, he wasn't. Now it's my turn to need a full reevaluation of everything.

And I was going to bring about the same point as Lommy. We can't afford to lose an innocent today. At least not alone - a double lynch with a wolf and an innocent would still keep us alive. Hence today, if it was considerately done, I would suggest to think about a double lynch. Counting numbers:

Lommy already mentioned what happens if we lynch an innocent today. We're dead.
If we lynch a wolf today, and they kill an innocent at night, we end up with 4-2 (+1) tomorrow. That's pretty much the same situation as today.
If we lynch the acolyte today, it's 4-3 tomorrow, which means we have our chances, but they are not big.

Whereas:

If we lynch two innocents today, we're dead, surprisingly.
If we lynch an innocent and a wolf, it's 3-2 (+1) tomorrow, which is bad, but not as bad as lynching only an innocent.
If we lynch two wolves today, we might be able to breath again.
If we lynch the acolyte and an innocent, we're done for.
If we lynch the acolyte and a wolf, it's 4-2 and the unknown powers of this game are gone.

This obviously again depends on the acolyte, their alignment etc. But let's not discuss that all the time today.

I'll need to think and evaluate a lot before I have an opinion, an idea of this game again. I'll be doing that now (as well as writing an essay).

[Thinlómien]

So, how did everybody treat Nog on Day2? For Day1, please see this (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667834&postcount=398)post.

Lommy defends Nog’s change of heart concerning Gal (#165). Lists Nog under “innocentish” and says she has good gut-feeling about Nog and trusts him for the time being (#204). [Editor's note: after reading the posts she xed with] amends that Nog looks a little worse (#206). Believes the revelation and votes Nog (#273).

Legate [my analysis was almost done in the end of yesterDay, so he was included all along, and I will leave this here in case it's of scientific interest to anyone] slightly defends Nog’s Legate-180 on Gal (#166, a cross-post with Lommy’s #165). Then he defends/explains Nog’s anger ventilation to Pom (#178). The discussion continues (#182). Then he discusses Rikae with him (#190). Makes fun of him and tells him to read his (Legate’s) post (#191). Attacks Eönwë for a suspicious attack on Nog (#194). Lists Nog under “grey” (his second most innocent category) and says a lot about him seems innocentish but there have also been good points against him lately (#213). As has been discussed, doesn’t believe Steve’s reveal (#236). Continues this (#239). Then, more or less makes a Legate-180 (#248). Ponders about lynching Zil in Nog's stead or making a double lynch, but concludes single lynch is much better (#275). Votes him not to split the votes (#276). Agrees with Pitch's arguments for Steve and against Nog (#276).

Pom points out Nog’s major role in the Bom-lynch but doesn’t conclude much from it (#167). She further discusses Bom-wagon, mentioning Nog several times (#172). She defends to Nog why emphasising his role in the Bom-lynch made sense (#173). Argues with Legate about Nog’s innocence/sensibility (#180). Thinks he answered her suspicions pretty well (#231). She leaves before Eönwë's reveal.

Pitch criticises the Bom-lynch and directs the criticism towards Nog (#168). He answers his criticism (#175). Rants a little more about the Bom-lynch, says Steve’s attack on Nog makes him look better despite his (Pitch’s) earlier suspicions on him (Nog) and discusses Rikae’s death with Nog (#211). A rather aggressive point against him (#214). Again, discusses Rikae with him (#224). After the reveal, he trusts Steve (and shortly tells why) and votes Nog (#277).

Boro discusses Rikae’s death with Nog, and defends himself (#177). He defends Eönwë’s attack on Nog and discusses Nog’s actions in the Bom-wagon without labelling them as anything else than “overkill”, as opposed to “suspicious” or “innocentish”, but says he seems to be treading carefully which implies suspicion (#203). He crosses with the seer reveal while saying: Nog was careful yesterDay but maybe an inncent Nog would have a reason to do that too, says he wanted to refrain from commenting (and encourage others to do so too) Eönwë's attack on Nog before Nog himself reacts, he has conflicting opinions about Nog himself (sometimes he sounds genuine, sometimes he sounds really bad) and is not sure whether everything thus far is enough for him to vote him as he recalls innocent Nog often being paranoid too (#254). He is amused by Nog's desperation and faulty facts and votes him (#267).

Lottie trusts Steve's reveal and votes Nog (#256).

Sally is catching up: she finds Nog willingness to help Bom's suicide alarming and after reading until the end of page five, she lists Nog in her guilty category which covers half of the village (#265). Votes Nog but mentions the possibilty Steve is lying (#266).

Shasta trusts Steve and believes in Nog's guilt, but believes we should lynch Zil the assumed acolyte (#268).

Greenie says that regardless of Nog's starting it, Shasta was the one behind the Bom-lynch (#184). She acknowledges and adds points against Nog but says she has a good gut-feeling about him (#187). She doesn't like Eönwë's jump on Nog and agrees with Legate's points about it (#195) then votes Eönwë (#196). She leaves before Eönwë's reveal.

Conclusions to follow.

[Thinlómien]

Using Legate's analysis about Nogrod's comments about everybody (#366 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667793&postcount=366)), and my analyses (#398 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667834&postcount=398), #437 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=667886&postcount=437)) about others' comments about him (and omitting myself of course):


Unlikely packmates

Pitch - when he criticises the Bom-lynch, his main target is very clearly Nogrod, not Shasta, Legate, Eönwë or me. In a few other occassions, he is rather aggressive towards him. I'm not sure of this new, more aggressive style of Pitch's, but I can't see him coming up with it as a wolf and applying it mostly wolf-on-wolf, it is potentially dangerous to the pack and puts him rather in the spotlight.

Shasta - his rather loud attack on Nogrod on Day1 doesn't reveal much, neither does the subsequent interaction, but: why the heck would a wolf-Shasta tainted himself by the association by suggesting lynching Zil the supposed acolyte instead of Nog the wolf? Surely that would have been too brazen?

These two are not exonerated by this, but I think it makes them look better enough that we should let them be for toDay which is the critical Day.


Possible packmates

Lottie - Nog attacked him on Day1, which would make her look more innocent than not. (Would a wolf-Nog bus fellow Lottie who is always suspected on Day1? That would be a bit too mean, taking into account that Lottie is someone who plays "properly" by Nog's standards.) Otherwise not much to conclude from: slight suspicion/ neutrality towards each other, Lottie believed Steve's revelation immediately like most of the people.


Likely packmates

Boro - on Day1, he talks uncharacteristically little about Nogrod, almost seems to avoid him. Nog suspects him, but doesn't seem to seriously consider voting him. On Day2 they argue, Boro defends Steve for attacking Nog but is himself very conflicted about Nog's role until Steve's reveal, when he turns almost malicious. To me, this seems like the exact way Borowolf would act with fellow Nog and wanting to keep all possibilities open about a packmate... Then again, Nogrod was pretty contradictory on the Day he died.

Pom - Nogrod is pretty nice to her in a way I can't really make sense of, maybe more like wolf to innocent. Then again, what she says about him is rather fishy: a few times she raises some point point about him, discusses it and concludes nothing. She suspects him but concludes he answered her suspicions pretty well. Makes her a more likely packmate of Nog's than many others.

Greenie - Nogrod suspects her a little, she scarcely mentions him, then in a list she says she has mixed feelings about him and votes Eönwë who attacked him. Hmm... looks almost too obvious wolf-on-wolf.

Sally - they mention each other so little it would be a perfect wolf-on-wolf tactic. Sally's suspicion of him is so "mainstream" we can hardly conclude anything from it.


Hmm... so if I had to bet, I would guess a Nog-Boro-Pom-Sally pack, but substituting any of them (except for Nog of course ;)) with Greenie or even Lottie is of course possible. (Pitch, Shasta and Lottie, if you are the remaining wolves, feel free to laugh at me. :rolleyes: )

In any case I will still do a lot of rethinking and rereading toDay, because we cannot make any conclusions too fast toDay (so I reserve the right to change my opinion, thank you!)

[Inziladun]

Okay, fine, Inzil's an ordo. Fair enough. But you aren't allowed to suspect someone for thinking you were claiming something when you were acting like you were claiming something (and don't try to deny that, Inzil, it's all over your D1 actions.)

I will deny it. It was never in my mind to play at being the Acolyte.

You really think, if I was a wolf, I had a shot at saving the Seer-dreamt Nogrod yesterday after he already had five votes against him? You vastly overestimate my skills, I'm afraid. Or you think I'm an idiot. Either or.

If you yourself didn't think your vote would be effective, why do what you did? Clearly you had a hope of, if not saving Nog, at least taking someone with him, someone you had no way of knowing was evil.

Also I just looked at the vote tally and only our known innocents (Steve, Zil and Legate) voted Shasta, everybody else voted Legate. It would be tempting to conclude Shasta's guilt from this, but we can afford knee-jerk thinking toDay.

I agree that Shasta should not be the focus of toDay.

That said, it should be remembered that, in addition to what I said yesterDay, he:

A. Was the spearhead for the Bom lynch Day 1.
B. Tried to bring another lynch for consideration over, or in conjunction with, a Seer-dreamt wolf Day 2.
C. Was following the lead of said wolf both times.

Agh. And I felt so smart suspecting the same person three days in a row, just to find out that despite everything I thought had to mean he was a wolf, he wasn't. Now it's my turn to need a full reevaluation of everything.

For some reason this doesn't sit well with me. It feels like the standard "Gosh darn it, I went and killed a good guy!" that wolves are so fond of.

[Thinlómien]

Now going but just saying: if someone is unwilling to discuss their suspicions and trusts toDay, we have all the reasons in the world to believe they are wolves who don't want to reveal their pack. No innocent has a need to hide their loyalties. That said, au revoir, I will be back in the European evening!

edit: xed with Zil

[Inziladun]

Pitch - when he criticises the Bom-lynch, his main target is very clearly Nogrod, not Shasta, Legate, Eönwë or me. In a few other occassions, he is rather aggressive towards him. I'm not sure of this new, more aggressive style of Pitch's, but I can't see him coming up with it as a wolf and applying it mostly wolf-on-wolf, it is potentially dangerous to the pack and puts him rather in the spotlight.

Shasta - his rather loud attack on Nogrod on Day1 doesn't reveal much, neither does the subsequent interaction, but: why the heck would a wolf-Shasta tainted himself by the association by suggesting lynching Zil the supposed acolyte instead of Nog the wolf? Surely that would have been too brazen?

These two are not exonerated by this, but I think it makes them look better enough that we should let them be for toDay which is the critical Day.

With three wolves left, some bold wolf-on-wolf can't be discounted totally when considering Nog's mates. Especially ones that talked a good game about him being suspicious, but never followed up on it.

As for Shasta, one has to wonder why an innocent he would not have seen that so closely following Nog would have put him in a bad light.

[Boromir88]

Shasta - his rather loud attack on Nogrod on Day1 doesn't reveal much, neither does the subsequent interaction, but: why the heck would a wolf-Shasta tainted himself by the association by suggesting lynching Zil the supposed acolyte instead of Nog the wolf? Surely that would have been too brazen?

I understand not wanting to focus on Shasta today, and I don't plan to, I just wanted to comment on this. Because Shasta is my top suspect, and I can't see how what happened yesterday effects what I should think about Shasta.

Also, Lommy, you're looking at Shasta through very narrow-minded glasses. You're looking at him based on interactions with Nogrod, and not at the whole picture. Shasta's actions through the entire game have been suspect, to say the least. Sure, he might be brazen and bold, but don't let the personality get in the way of what he's done so far, and what he would have the village do. He says that he feels I bussed Nog's lynch, well...

Shasta, bussed Bom's lynched. Wanted to bus Inzil (who he "suspected" as the acolyte, when there was little reason to feel the acolyte was an immediate threat) along with the known wolf Nog. And he continued to push for the acolyte's lynch yesterday, until getting frustrated by all the suspicion and leaving. Remove the personality from the equation, because it's not like you can't be brazen and a wolf :rolleyes:. Look at the intentions and the results.

So, are you suggesting we just drop and let Shasta off the hook?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I understand not wanting to focus on Shasta today, and I don't plan to, I just wanted to comment on this. Because Shasta is my top suspect, and I can't see how what happened yesterday effects what I should think about Shasta.

Also, Lommy, you're looking at Shasta through very narrow-minded glasses. You're looking at him based on interactions with Nogrod, and not at the whole picture. Shasta's actions through the entire game have been suspect, to say the least. Sure, he might be brazen and bold, but don't let the personality get in the way of what he's done so far, and what he would have the village do. He says that he feels I bussed Nog's lynch, well...

Shasta, bussed Bom's lynched. Wanted to bus Inzil (who he "suspected" as the acolyte, when there was little reason to feel the acolyte was an immediate threat) along with the known wolf Nog. And he continued to push for the acolyte's lynch yesterday, until getting frustrated by all the suspicion and leaving. Remove the personality from the equation, because it's not like you can't be brazen and a wolf :rolleyes:. Look at the intentions and the results.

So, are you suggesting we just drop and let Shasta off the hook?

(underlining mine)

I will say this one time today. After that, if anyone brings it up yet again, I am going to flatly ignore you.

I thought the Acolyte was a werebear after the Eruhen kill and acted as I did to lessen the number of kills that I foresaw happening at night.

There. Done.

That said, Boro, think before you speak. Learn the definition of "bussing" before scrambling to use that, of all things, as a point against me, because neither Bom nor Inzil were/are wolves.

I'll post actual content after I take a shower.

[Inziladun]

I have to wonder about something, Boro.

You spent pretty much all of yesterDay going back and forth with Shasta, and he certainly seemed to be your main suspect.

Toward the end of the Day, you started saying you were confortable with lynching either Shasta or Legate. Why, when your focus had clearly been on Shasta, did you vote for Legate?

x/d with Shasta

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Agh. And I felt so smart suspecting the same person three days in a row, just to find out that despite everything I thought had to mean he was a wolf, he wasn't. Now it's my turn to need a full reevaluation of everything.

And I was going to bring about the same point as Lommy. We can't afford to lose an innocent today. At least not alone - a double lynch with a wolf and an innocent would still keep us alive. Hence today, if it was considerately done, I would suggest to think about a double lynch. Counting numbers:

Lommy already mentioned what happens if we lynch an innocent today. We're dead.
If we lynch a wolf today, and they kill an innocent at night, we end up with 4-2 (+1) tomorrow. That's pretty much the same situation as today.
If we lynch the acolyte today, it's 4-3 tomorrow, which means we have our chances, but they are not big.

Whereas:

If we lynch two innocents today, we're dead, surprisingly.
If we lynch an innocent and a wolf, it's 3-2 (+1) tomorrow, which is bad, but not as bad as lynching only an innocent.
If we lynch two wolves today, we might be able to breath again.
If we lynch the acolyte and an innocent, we're done for.
If we lynch the acolyte and a wolf, it's 4-2 and the unknown powers of this game are gone.

This obviously again depends on the acolyte, their alignment etc. But let's not discuss that all the time today.

I'll need to think and evaluate a lot before I have an opinion, an idea of this game again. I'll be doing that now (as well as writing an essay).

Before I delve too far into analyses and such, I want to comment on this.

Now watch out, Shasta's speculating about the Acolyte again! Lynch him! :rolleyes:

The narration of the Night, to me, certainly makes it seem like the Acolyte joined the side of the village last night. I think what happened is, either the Acolyte targeted Eonwe for something, Eonwe dreamt of the Acolyte, or both (this is the one I'm leaning toward - in the narration, the Envoy says he dreamt of the Acolyte, and the narration also has the Acolyte coming to the Envoy's door) and some combination of these events led to the Acolyte becoming innocent (given the whole teaching session, perhaps Eonwe managed to pass on his Seer powers?)

Now, granted, Nerwen was clear that the Acolyte doesn't count for either side in the tally. But what if they aren't the Acolyte anymore? If they did become innocent (big if, but I think, possible), the tally becomes 3-6... and suddenly a double-lynch becomes the only way the wolves can win toMorrow. This makes me raise my eyebrows at Pom a bit, because she basically came out of the gate toDay with some support for a double-lynch toDay.

[satansaloser2005]

I have a horrible idea that just might work. Is anyone interested?


Or, as they say in Limerick....

I do believe I have a plan
That might meet the ordos' demands
But I rather fear
That no one will hear
Could I get a show of your hands?



(I have a point to make against Lommie later, but I'll have to wait until I can get home and find the post, alas. I won't be home until almost midDay, but I didn't want to let this go.)

[Pomegranate]

Okay. A throughout re-read of what the people still alive said on Day 2 (I'm planning to continue to Day 3 as well) gave me following notifications.


Boro suspected Nog somewhat and said he's going to look into Nog BEFORE Eonwe started ranting about him – wolves must’ve seen that it is a seer-attempt, but Boro started it already before. Doesn't make him not-guilty, but Shasta's suspicions of him eager to bus a packmate are not completely correct as he could've also gone with his intuition that was already there.


Galadriel55 - my top suspect at the moment. It's not only her weird jump on me yesterDay or on Nog toDay, but mostly two details which scream wolf (which you all should know if you've read my posts but let me repeat). 1. When she looks back, she refers to whether she said she suspected someone, not whether she suspected them in her head. I can see no reason an innocent would play with this mindset. 2. She was confident enough that she'd be alive toDay that she spent a considerable amount of time last Night writing a post. A rhetorical question: who again are they who generally don't die during the Night?

The Captain Obvious here? If she isn’t a wolf, here is a good reason why the wolves realised to kill G55. Did she want to get Gal lynched so that they wouldn’t need to kill her at night? Or was she just so ignorant? (I could've been this ignorant, but Lommy said herself she's trying to avoid this) It's hard for me to believe that she didn't realise the option of Gal being the captain while writing the post. On the other hand, if she was a wolf, it would feel weird she decided to emphasise these two points which actually meant something else, instead of all the various other things she could've pointed out about Gal.


That said, I don't see Legate's initial reluctance to fall out of his chair trusting Eönwë as suspicious, but rather a point in his favour. Has everybody forgotten that for all we know, the Acolyte may get dreams as well and, whether xe works with the wolves or on their own, is by all evidence not on our side?

I actually though this was a good point at the moment, but now it feels like it has a bad vibe in it, for I am sure the wolves have discussed the acolyte and the possibility of xem having dreams and such. Also when Legate started getting suspicion, Pitch seemed to forget this and didn't bring it up until I mentioned it.

Day 3 later (some essay writing before that, and some defending myself for Lommy and Inzil)

x/ed with everyone after Boro's last

edit. misspelling

[Pomegranate]

But first to Shasta: I wrote that before the narration was up. That is going to change things. I don't think I can be blamed for not expecting such a change.

That being said, I agree with you, it looks like the acolyte became a part of the village (or at least was given a choice to become such) and I would also see it as even more probable that he inherited the Seer powers. Which wouldn't after all be so surprising considering that an acolyte means (if I remember correctly from day one) a student in priesthood but not a priest yet. When the Seer dies, or the Acolyte finds the Seer, xe becomes such xemself.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

But first to Shasta: I wrote that before the narration was up. That is going to change things. I don't think I can be blamed for not expecting such a change.

That being said, I agree with you, it looks like the acolyte became a part of the village (or at least was given a choice to become such) and I would also see it as even more probable that he inherited the Seer powers. Which wouldn't after all be so surprising considering that an acolyte means (if I remember correctly from day one) a student in priesthood but not a priest yet. When the Seer dies, or the Acolyte finds the Seer, xe becomes such xemself.

Okay, that's fair enough. What, then, are your thoughts on a double-lynch now?

[Loslote]

I was feeling so good about Pom...but I'm beginning to wonder. She's been playing with a bit of a cautious hand, not getting into much drama, and basically staying in the shadows while seeming to be sharp and helpful. Also...

You might not be able to fully experience a Downsian WW game until you've had a good, passionate row with me, but honestly, you need to start looking 20 times more suspicious for that to happen. Until then, you're going to be on my "Smart. Sharp player. Her, I like." list. It's probably a terribly boring list to be on, but you'll be on it until I actually see "Not only is she all that, but she's evil too. Her, I like, but keep a closer eye on!"

This post of Boro's makes me think that not only would Pom and Nog, as Lommy said, be likely packmates, but so would Pom and Boro. In that post, Boro's basically writing Pom off as innocent, and implying that an evil Pom would happen in the future - that is, not this game.

EDIT: xed with Shasta

[Pitchwife]

Now watch out, Shasta's speculating about the Acolyte again!
And jumping to conclusions in the opposite direction this time.

Judging from the narration, and no unexplained kills happening for the last two Nights, it is of course clear now that the Acolyte is no threat, and the narration indeed makes it likely that Eönwë's seer power was transferred to xem - which is great, if xe decides to use it for our benefit.

So far so good. But automatically assuming that xe will not only side with the village but also count as an innocent from now on, contrary to everything stated in the rules, is just as bold an assumption as that the Acolyte is a classical Werebear and has to be Zil - and it could be desastrous to overestimate our numbers toDay.

You have, however, a point that Pom's willingness to contemplate double-lynches at this stage of the game is rather alarming. Not sure though whether it's noobishness or sinister purpose.

With three wolves left, some bold wolf-on-wolf can't be discounted totally when considering Nog's mates. Especially ones that talked a good game about him being suspicious, but never followed up on it.
I'd like you to explain in which way I should have 'followed it up' and didn't. My suspicion of Nogrod originated in his part in starting the Bomwagon; I became doubtful of his guilt because my prime suspect from Day 1, Eönwë,attacked him in a manner which raised more than a few eyebrows, until the question which of them was guilty was resolved when Eönwë revealed himself as the seer and Nog as a wolf. How I reacted to that is on record, and I'm honestly puzzled what more you would have wanted me to do.

[Pitchwife]

I actually though this was a good point at the moment, but now it feels like it has a bad vibe in it, for I am sure the wolves have discussed the acolyte and the possibility of xem having dreams and such.
We all discussed it on Day 1. Go back and read the thread.

And believe me or not, I was just about to post on the subject when I saw your post asking me about it.

Sally, I'm curious.

[Boromir88]

I have to wonder about something, Boro.

You spent pretty much all of yesterDay going back and forth with Shasta, and he certainly seemed to be your main suspect.

Toward the end of the Day, you started saying you were confortable with lynching either Shasta or Legate. Why, when your focus had clearly been on Shasta, did you vote for Legate?


I didn't say much about Legate until later, but that's just because I was agreeing with the points against him, and didn't want to re-hash what pretty much everyone else was saying. Other than me thinking, "are we sure there's no cobbler in this village? Because, it's looking like Legate." Legate was getting suspected enough, and I didn't see the point to just add on by re-stating the same points against him.

Shasta, at least at the beginning of the day, I didn't think was getting suspected enough. So, I started pushing, and it may look hypocritical since I've beat on the same points against him (unlike what I didn't want to do to Legate), but I didn't think he was getting enough suspicion until he got too frustrated and left.

But at the end of the day, I had enough of both of them, and couldn't care less which one was lynched, since it wouldn't effect my suspicions at the start of the day. Had Legate been a wolf, I still would have Shasta as a top suspect. Had Shasta been lynched, whether wolf or innocent, I would have had Legate my top suspect today. And my first post today was just to say "wait a sec, are we seriously just going to drop suspicion against Shasta now?"

It's the same plan I have today. That is, I've said all I can say on Shasta. We're going to go in this circle of "I don't believe you," and just re-hashing all the same argument. I'm pretty much tired of that (as I'm sure Shasta is too :rolleyes:), but I'll say now, just because I'm going to turn/start paying more attention to others doesn't mean I've suddenly dropped Shasta as my primary suspect. It just means I will agree with him about this:

I will say this one time today. After that, if anyone brings it up yet again, I am going to flatly ignore you.

But I don't like the look of this:

That said, Boro, think before you speak. Learn the definition of "bussing" before scrambling to use that, of all things, as a point against me, because neither Bom nor Inzil were/are wolves.

It's these types of comments that just don't sit well with me, a squawk over a word/definition. I took "bussing" as "pushing/driving" a lynch of someone. Oh, so it means what a wolf driving the lynch of another wolf? My bad, I'll use "pushing" from now on...but just that tit-for-tat debate over definitions of words we're using is not a way to convince me you're innocent.

[Pomegranate]

Lommy: I raised a point against Nog exactly once. I started my second day by pointing this one out.


Now, as everyone kept saying yesterNight (can you put it like that?) Shasta was the one to start the actual bandwaggon against Bom, after suspecting around. However, it's worth noticing that he wasn't the first one to suggest it, even though he was the first to actually give his vote to Bom. First one was Nogrod.

(#113)

During his post he actually kind of talked himself out of it, but somehow it seemed more that he was giving the bait and hoping someone would go with it. And when Shasta did decide that he wants Bom lynched, Nogrod started to show his uncertainty, but then decided to go for Bom when there was a lot of people after him. His vote was the one which raised Bom’s votes higher than Lommy’s.

Continuing in a bit, this was the most striking thing for me, now hunting for more.

x/ed with everyone after Nerwen's #160

After he reacted, I continued pursuing:

Nog, it's not a secret, but somehow Shasta managed to get all the "glory" of the lynch even though you were the one who started more or less seriously thinking about the choice. So it was worth mentioning, when going through the people who were driving Bom's lynch. You planted the idea, then let someone else grab it and drive it forward while you were hiding more in the background.

And after Legate (I think) stood for Nog, I said:

Though Nogrod kept saying he's semi-serious, instead of just ranting around. And isn't that exactly what baiting is (at least that's how it would sound to me, unless you use it with slightly different definition) - not a serious wish to lynch someone (I wouldn't call Shasta's actions baiting) but some kind of reminder, "hey, you know, then there's this one... anyone? Feel like continuing this discussion?"


This was all about that one post that had raised my suspicion. So I did indeed continue it for a while. It is not seen here, but I kept pursuing Legate at the same time. After this I left. I ended up deciding Legate was more suspicious, because his actions were suspicious during the whole first day, whereas Nogrod's were suspicious during that one post, and I thought he answered to well. Before this time Legate had also jumped into the waggon suspecting Eonwe, who in my eyes acted somewhat suspiciously, but not enough to gain a vote, and besides I didn't like the pile of suspicion he had already gained by that one post.

x/ed with everyone after my last

[Pomegranate]

My opinion on a double-lynch is, like earlier in the game it was, that it's scary, and has a very easy potential for the wolves to play with it. Why I was talking about it earlier (to Pitch, mainly, I assume Shasta got my point in my last message) was that I assumed we'd be dead anyway today if we happened to lynch an innocent alone - hence I thought it would be of more use than danger to think about a double-lynch. However, as I said, now that there is a relatively big chance that the acolyte is on our side, I don't think it's a good idea to attempt such today.

[Pomegranate]

Oh, and I keep forgetting I said I'd answer to Inzil, though I don't actually know if there's anything to answer for. It was genuine bad feeling about pursuing someone innocent for three Days, I guess there's nothing more to say.

[Pitchwife]

(to Pitch, mainly, I assume Shasta got my point in my last message)
Noted; my post crossed with your reply to Shasta.

[Pitchwife]

In that post, Boro's basically writing Pom off as innocent, and implying that an evil Pom would happen in the future - that is, not this game.
I don't see why "in the future" has to mean "not in this game", unless you decide to read it so; this is a constructed argument.

I must admit I had more or less forgotten about Lottie for the last two Days (sorry dear), but I don't like this.

[Inziladun]

I'd like you to explain in which way I should have 'followed it up' and didn't. My suspicion of Nogrod originated in his part in starting the Bomwagon; I became doubtful of his guilt because my prime suspect from Day 1, Eönwë,attacked him in a manner which raised more than a few eyebrows, until the question which of them was guilty was resolved when Eönwë revealed himself as the seer and Nog as a wolf. How I reacted to that is on record, and I'm honestly puzzled what more you would have wanted me to do.

I didn't point at you, or anyone in particular. But your reaction to my open statement is noted.

[Pitchwife]

I didn't point at you, or anyone in particular. But your reaction to my open statement is noted.
The post I quoted from was your reply to a post of Lommy's where she talked about me and Shasta, so I don't think it was unreasonable to assume that you did as well.

[Thinlómien]

Galadriel55 - my top suspect at the moment. It's not only her weird jump on me yesterDay or on Nog toDay, but mostly two details which scream wolf (which you all should know if you've read my posts but let me repeat). 1. When she looks back, she refers to whether she said she suspected someone, not whether she suspected them in her head. I can see no reason an innocent would play with this mindset. 2. She was confident enough that she'd be alive toDay that she spent a considerable amount of time last Night writing a post. A rhetorical question: who again are they who generally don't die during the Night?
The Captain Obvious here? If she isn’t a wolf, here is a good reason why the wolves realised to kill G55. Did she want to get Gal lynched so that they wouldn’t need to kill her at night? Or was she just so ignorant? (I could've been this ignorant, but Lommy said herself she's trying to avoid this) It's hard for me to believe that she didn't realise the option of Gal being the captain while writing the post. On the other hand, if she was a wolf, it would feel weird she decided to emphasise these two points which actually meant something else, instead of all the various other things she could've pointed out about Gal.What do you mean? The mindset thing? That could only mean wolf or seer, and I wasn't especially concerned about her being the seer. (It's kind of ironic you raise this point against me since I almost got lynched on Day1 because of my wishy-washy suspicions - they were wishy-washy because I was afraid of suspecting the gifted. Didn't succeed very well in that though!) If you mean dying during the Night, the Ranger can count less in her own survival than anyone else, given that she cannot be protected.

Lommy: I raised a point against Nog exactly once.True. But you also pointed out stuff about him more than once, such as "Nogrod is playing differently than last time I played with him", always without concluding whether it's suspicious or not. That's what caught my eye.

It is not seen here, but I kept pursuing Legate at the same time.Yes, fair enough, but that was not what I was looking at.

I understand not wanting to focus on Shasta today, and I don't plan to, I just wanted to comment on this. Because Shasta is my top suspect, and I can't see how what happened yesterday effects what I should think about Shasta.

Also, Lommy, you're looking at Shasta through very narrow-minded glasses. You're looking at him based on interactions with Nogrod, and not at the whole picture. Shasta's actions through the entire game have been suspect, to say the least. Sure, he might be brazen and bold, but don't let the personality get in the way of what he's done so far, and what he would have the village do. He says that he feels I bussed Nog's lynch, well...

Shasta, bussed Bom's lynched. Wanted to bus Inzil (who he "suspected" as the acolyte, when there was little reason to feel the acolyte was an immediate threat) along with the known wolf Nog. And he continued to push for the acolyte's lynch yesterday, until getting frustrated by all the suspicion and leaving. Remove the personality from the equation, because it's not like you can't be brazen and a wolf . Look at the intentions and the results.

So, are you suggesting we just drop and let Shasta off the hook?Boro - of course I was looking through narrow-minded glasses! All that post was based on how people interacted with Nogrod, that was the poiny. If not, I would have found Pitchie, Lottie and Shasta all more suspicious. You can't discount anyone (except Zil :D) at this point of the game. And yes, I'm suggesting to let Shasta (and Pitchwife) off the hook toDay (not infinitely) because their interaction with Nog make them less likely wolves and we need to catch one toDay. Even if I was wrong and Shasta was a wolf, there's still two of them out there.


edit: xed with Zil and Pitch

[Pitchwife]

Lommy, sinceyou quote Pom quoting that post from you about G55 from Day 1, let me ask you: did you never write an analysis or something during the Night phase in order to post it on the next Day, not knowing whether you'd be alive to do so?

I'm asking because this point you made against G55 (that she couldn't be sure she'd be alive unless she was a wolf etc.) seemed horribly constructed to me at the time, but it got buried under other matters and I forgot to comment on it.

[Thinlómien]

Lommy, sinceyou quote Pom quoting that post from you about G55 from Day 1, let me ask you: did you never write an analysis or something during the Night phase in order to post it on the next Day, not knowing whether you'd be alive to do so?

I'm asking because this point you made against G55 (that she couldn't be sure she'd be alive unless she was a wolf etc.) seemed horribly constructed to me at the time, but it got buried under other matters and I forgot to comment on it.I once made some points in my head and wrote them down so I could post them the next Day, and got killed of course. After that, no. It's not necessarily just that I don't want to gamble on being alive, it might also be laziness: when I'm an ordo, I gladly take the Nights as my days off from the game and continue thinking in the next Day phase. Anyway, my suspicion of people who write analyses overNight is not just because I don't do it myself, but also because in one early game I played, a wolf was caught precisely because of her (I think it was Brinniel) certainity of being alive the next Day.

[Pomegranate]

Lommy, I agree I was vague. To clarify: On point 1, it's bad for both gifteds and wolves alike to seem suspicious, and coming up with a point against someone out of nowhere (as in, a point that hasn't been vocalised before, even if you have had it in your mind) does easily seem such. Point is, gifteds do have a reason to be self-conscious. On point 2: In fact, the Ranger in this game can protect herself (go check the admin thread if you want to - I did). I don't know if Gal did so, but she had the possibility to know she was to survive a night kill attempt.

x/ed with Lommy

[Thinlómien]

On point 1, it's bad for both gifteds and wolves alike to seem suspicious, and coming up with a point against someone out of nowhere (as in, a point that hasn't been vocalised before, even if you have had it in your mind) does easily seem such. Point is, gifteds do have a reason to be self-conscious.I agree that gifteds don't want to seem suspicious, but unlike the seer and the hunter, in normal conditions the ranger has no special reason to watch whom she suspects aloud. So given that I knew Gal wasn't the hunter and thought she wasn't the seer, her keeping so much track on what she had said instead of what she had thought made me immediately alarmed.

On point 2: In fact, the Ranger in this game can protect herself (go check the admin thread if you want to - I did). I don't know if Gal did so, but she had the possibility to know she was to survive a night kill attempt.In that case, it's my mistake. I assumed she can't, as usual, and obviously didn't pay enough attention to the rules. (I'm sorry, I hate it when people don't read the rules and justify their actions based on that.)


PS. Also if you are a wolf, this:
If she [me] isn’t a wolf, here is a good reason why the wolves realised to kill G55.literally makes me hit my head with stuff.

[Pitchwife]

I once made some points in my head and wrote them down so I could post them the next Day, and got killed of course. After that, no. It's not necessarily just that I don't want to gamble on being alive, it might also be laziness: when I'm an ordo, I gladly take the Nights as my days off from the game and continue thinking in the next Day phase. Anyway, my suspicion of people who write analyses overNight is not just because I don't do it myself, but also because in one early game I played, a wolf was caught precisely because of her (I think it was Brinniel) certainity of being alive the next Day.
I usually don't do much at Nights myself as an ordo, but last game I wrote a lengthy analysis of Shasta the very Night I was killed; so from my perspective, G55 didn't even have to be sure she'd be alive, she just had not to have a reason to expect that she specifically would die that Night. Apparently your mileage varies.

[A Little Green]

A quick summary of Boro; banter (not that there really was that), "I'm here" -posts, and the like excluded. Italicized parts are commentary.

Day 1

- attempts to settle heated feelings between Gal and Rikae; Gal's reaction to Rikae suspicious anyway
- not happy about my vote for him but doesn't find it suspicious; slightly defends Lommy from Gal (who suspected her based on her excessive use of the word 'weird'); disagrees with Nog and further argues his suspicion of Gal
- clarifies Nate's ww background for Legate, compliments her and tells himself to refrain from doing that (after being suspected for being too nice by, I think, at least myself and Legate)

Day 2

- ”not happy with what's going on with Eruhen/Acolyte stuff”; speculates about Rikae's death: ”Wolves saw Rikae as a threat/gifted and as a means to manipulate the suspicions/lynch today.”; feels a lot better about Gal, suspects Nog for his unusual hesitancy to take the lead; Pitch, Lommy and Lottie make him wary, promises to elaborate
- clarifies his point about Rikae; elaborates on Pitch, saying his uneasiness has to do with Pitch's scolding re Bom-lynch; slightly defends the reasoning behind the lynch; says he would have voted Gal but wouldn't have been opposed to lynching Bom
- says a wolf-Steve wouldn't gain much by accusing Nog so strongly; further discusses Nog's role in the Bomwagon
- thinks Pitch's explanation of his post on the Bom-lynch looks fine; disagrees with Legate about himself acting polished; says he's ”even more conflicted about Nogrod”, though most of the posts he quotes when elaborating on this he concludes are looking bad
- (after the reveal) says he's amused by Nog's desperate actions; votes Nog

Day 3

- ”Lovely, now the ranger.”

I've said it before, comments like this always make me wary, but this one isn't as bad as most, I suppose. :rolleyes:

- suspects Shasta based on his reaction to his (Boro's) vote, says it's common knowledge he has no problem with busing his fellows (a hilarious comment if he's a wolf, btw!); says there's an acolyte-focus similarity between Nog and Shasta
- argues with Shasta about Nog's behaviour the previous Day in considerable length, and about whether or not it was necessary for Steve to reveal
- agrees with Zil about not concentrating on the acolyte
- thinks his disagreement with Shasta re. Acolyte may be a difference of playing style/point of view
- tries to calm me and Lommy down

For the record, I wasn't really angry, just a bit annoyed, and confused more than that; and Lommy's frustration had more to do with Nog's laptop deleting her post than with the game... :D

- says Nate has to look twenty times more suspicious to get off his ”smart, sharp player” -list

Lottie commented on this one earlier; I don't think he necessarily meant it'd have to wait until next game, but I do think writing her off as innocent and not reconsidering since is pretty odd for Boro. And actually, added to this I find it interesting that in his apology of not being himself Day 1 he says something about "why Pom and others likely noticed it wasn't my usual self"; yes, there were others, so why is Pom the one you remembered? Could be random, could not be, I honestly don't know.

- says he's had too much of Legate and Shasta for one day and would be willing to lynch either or both of them
- clarifies that the double-lynch idea wasn't serious; mentions possible trios of Legate-Lottie-Shasta and Lommy-Sally-Shasta

Actually, Boro, the names of Lommy and Lottie keep coming up, first on Day 2, then yesterDay; care to share why the two of them? And why Sally? Why those trios?

- (at almost deadline) wonders where Shasta is; ”Ok then, let's do this.”; votes Legate

Day 4

- criticizes Lommy for wanting to let Shasta off the hook though agrees with her that he shouldn't be the sole focus toDay; continues his case on Shasta
- defends his Legate-vote (despite his focus on Shasta) by saying he was suspicious of Legate but didn't speak a lot about it because he didn't have anything new to add, focused on Shasta because he thought there wasn't enough focus on him; says again he's going to keep Shasta as his top suspect but drop that discussion – and adds another point to it.


Overall?
- Especially in the beginning of the game, but also later, he's more than once taken up a role of clarifying misunderstandings and trying to calm people down
- Suspected Nog rather heavily already before Steve revealed
- Has a connection with Nate, I think
- ToDay, has kept saying he'll leave off Shasta, and doesn't

So - wolf or not? It probably doesn't come as a surprise when I say it could go either way; I'm having a bad feeling about him right now, but my gut has fooled me before. Any arguments against him are really rather weak if considered logically, but when has a Borowolf last blundered enough to allow strong arguments against him, anyway? Not sure if that makes sense, but to me it does. Just - bad gut-feeling, from reading his posts. His suspicion of Nog is a point in his favour, though (even if, knowing those two, they could totally pull off something like that as fellow wolves).


EDIT: x-ed with Lommy, Nate, another Lommy, and Pitch

[Boromir88]

I usually don't do much at Nights myself as an ordo, but last game I wrote a lengthy analysis of Shasta the very Night I was killed; so from my perspective, G55 didn't even have to be sure she'd be alive, she just had not to have a reason to expect that she specifically would die that Night. Apparently your mileage varies.

I never do, not because I'm particulary worried about being axed at night, but because I don't know how the night death will effect my opinions going into the next day. Also, I like seeing/weighing reactions to the night death from people before doing anything else.

My guess though is this is something that varies from person to person, whether someone does or doesn't isn't in anyway a solid reason for suspicion. It may raise some red flags on someone as in..."Wait if you were so sure you were going to be alive...? = wolfy." But it's still a personal judgement call and I would prefer not to get into "What is this person thinking when they assume to be alive next day and write a post during a night?" That's making things way too complicated for yourself. :rolleyes:

[Pomegranate]

On Boro being nice to me - until today (as I mentioned before) everyone has been nice to me. I can't answer to that. And me playing cautiously, Lottie: Look at yourself. I have at least thrown some suspicions (Legate, Nog, I guestioned Shasta, just now I'm having problems with Lommy and - let's face it, yourself (though I hate suspecting people right after they have suspected me, I agree with Pitch - I had forgotten Lottie's existence, and looked through her).

So, Lottie's posts from yesterday.

I actually thought this was a good point. The way I see it, there are only four reasons why the Acolyte killed Eruhen.

Option A: The Acolyte is a were-bear and kills every Night. This was proved false by the lack of a kill last Night.

Option B1: The Acolyte is a type of were-bear that kills every so often and wants the village (and spies) to all die. This is possible, and the only possible option where the Acolyte is definitively evil.

Option B2: The Acolyte still kills every so often, but xe doesn't necessarily want the village to all die. Xe killed Eruhen because xe thought Eruhen was a spy, and used his "every so often" kill to take out a potential spy, but was mistaken.

Option C: The Acolyte took the role of the person xe killed, and is now an ordo.

I won't go so far as to say it's more likely that the Acolyte isn't necessarily on our side, but it's not impossible, so I'm definitely not comfortable with writing the Acolyte off as evil as a matter of course.

(On acolyte killing Eru - no opinions on who's suspicious etc.)

After Legate's weird flip-out over Steve not revealing the Ordo yesterDay, and his dogged (and, as it seems to me at least, flimsy and grasping-at-strawsy) pursuit of Shasta (who's seemed logical and genuine, if not always right, to me this whole game), I'm very much inclined to vote him toDay. Pitchie also seems off to me, but I'm less convinced of his guilt than of Legate's.

Obviously Steve is innocent, but Lommy, Sally, and Nate also seem pretty good to me, and I'm leaning innocent on Boro, Shasta, and Zil (though hardly definitively yet!). I have no read whatsoever on Greenie, and if there's anyone else playing, I've gotten so little a read on them that I've forgotten them entirely.

Obviously, this means that one of the people in my second category are evil. For now I'm thinking it'd be more likely to be Boro and Shasta - I'm more confident about the first three I mentioned, and Zil and Greenie, for some reason, don't strike me as all that evil this game (of course, they also don't strike me as all that innocent, but that's why they're in the categories they're in).

Following with everyone else suspecting Legate, and giving vague hints about Pitch. Everyone else seems more or less innocent.

I'd be willing to consider the option of a Legate-Shasta-?Pitch? pack, at any rate.

EDIT: xed with a bunch

It would be insanely bold, but whoever survived would look very good. How much did Shasta suspect Legate before toDay? It could be the wolves decided that, since Legate was likely to be lynched for his suspicious reaction to Steve's dream, Shasta might as well come out of it looking very good.

Now, I'm not saying that this is necessarily what I think, but it is a possiblity I'm considering.

EDIT: xed with Legate

I'm sorry, who's careful? "I'm not saying that this is necessarily what I think"?

I've got to vote early, so I'll go ahead and

++Legate

For the reasons stated in my earlier post, especially his reaction to Steve's reveal. Good lynching, everyone!

I'm not comfortable, not at all. This to me seems like "I'm here, I'm saying something, but I'm not actually saying anything too much. Nothing that would in any case link me to anyone, anywhere."

Also, what was that change of opinion of Shasta mid-post? You started with "(who's seemed logical and genuine, if not always right, to me this whole game)" and ended up with putting him as the most probable of the innocent-group of yours to be a wolf. I'd say most probably you just had to figure out a reason to suspect Legate, so that you wouldn't seem you're just following others. But tell us, what were you thinking?

x/ed with Greenie and Boro

[Boromir88]

Last post crossed with Greenie, one thing you mis-interpretted:

- clarifies that the double-lynch idea wasn't serious; mentions possible trios of Legate-Lottie-Shasta and Lommy-Sally-Shasta

Actually, Boro, the names of Lommy and Lottie keep coming up, first on Day 2, then yesterDay; care to share why the two of them? And why Sally? Why those trios?


My talk of "this trio" or "that trio" I was using as sarcastic examples and expressing why I was annoyed yesterday. I mean that originated as Nog's argument to try to defend himself "Eonwe-G55-Boro, wolf-conspiracy to attack me!"

And yesterday there was a lot of continued "well these people are together, and there's this trio"...which flat out annoys me. Not that it's not good to point these out for a future reference but like I said yesterday, I suck at multi-tasking. Let me finish/complete one thing at a time and all this chatter of wolf-trio here and wolf-trio there was system overload/distracting from current task of Legate and/or Shasta = Boro brain combustion:

I'm well aware there are more spies than just Legate a/o Shasta, but I am perhaps the worst multi-tasker you'll ever know. Give me one thing to do. I'll execute it and then move on to the next thing. Asking me to jumble all these ideas of a Legate-Shasta-Pitch, Shasta-Lommy-Greenie, Legate-sally-Lommy spy combinations is a processing overload for me. So unless you want my brain to explode, let me go about my business one step at a time. Starting with either Legate or Shasta today. Comprende?

Post 378, responding to Legate (bolding mine)
And relax. I wasn't being serious with that double lynch, but expressing my annoyance at both of you, and overall annoyance at this "Legate-Lottie-Shasta" "Lommy-sally-Shasta" spy-trifecta chatter today. Annoyed to the point where, at this time I couldn't care less if either you or Shasta were lynched, therefor you could both go. Give a few hours to have some hot chocolate, watch some guilty pleasure/trash and I'll be significantly less annoyed.

[A Little Green]

My talk of "this trio" or "that trio" I was using as sarcastic examples and expressing why I was annoyed yesterday. I mean that originated as Nog's argument to try to defend himself "Eonwe-G55-Boro, wolf-conspiracy to attack me!"

And yesterday there was a lot of continued "well these people are together, and there's this trio"...which flat out annoys me. Not that it's not good to point these out for a future reference but like I said yesterday, I suck at multi-tasking. Let me finish/complete one thing at a time and all this chatter of wolf-trio here and wolf-trio there was system overload/distracting from current task of Legate and/or Shasta = Boro brain combustionAh, I see. Fair enough. Nevertheless, you did say you were wary of Lommy and Lottie and would explain later. I know it might be old already, but just for the record, what was it about?

[Thinlómien]

I guess now is the time to do this, before people start voting:

I'm the acolyte.

I only learnt this last Night (and I have to say it has quite nicely ruined my day of supposed essay-writing.) I got to pick my side, and it wasn't really a choice. I picked the village - some people may know I always side with the goodies, but also I would have felt very unfair changing sides when the wolves already have an upper hand and I myself have played lousily as an ordo.

I'm basically like a weaker seer. I get to dream every Night, but there's 50% chance I dream of someone else than I wanted to.

Last Night I chose and succeeded to dream of Boro, who is a wolf.

Based on his going after Shasta so strongly toDay, I think he's 90% likely to be innocent.

(Also, just to venture a bit further, I wouldn't be surprised if Boro and Pom were packmates. If Pom is a wolf, then I doubt Lottie is one, since she just suggested Boro and Pom are wolves together. Greenie drawing so much attention to him would also be a little risky at this point, so my best guess is Boro-Pom-Sally or if not, then Boro-Pom-Pitch.)

[A Little Green]

Last Night I chose and succeeded to dream of Boro, who is a wolf. HA! I knew it was worth it not to go to bed just yet. :D I'm inclined to believe Lommy, partly because I find Boro a much likelier wolf than Lommy, partly because I can't see why a Lommywolf would try something like that (unless it's purely for sport, but I doubt she'd do that).

[Inziladun]

HA! I knew it was worth it not to go to bed just yet. :D I'm inclined to believe Lommy, partly because I find Boro a much likelier wolf than Lommy, partly because I can't see why a Lommywolf would try something like that (unless it's purely for sport, but I doubt she'd do that).

It also fits with her wanting to discuss the Acolyte right out of the gate Day 1.

I'm also inclined to believe her, partly because I already was wondering about Boro, but also because I agree there's no reason for a Lommywolf to have taken such a risk.

[Pitchwife]

What?

If that is true, what the heck was Sally's #446 about?

[Boromir88]

Ah, I see. Fair enough. Nevertheless, you did say you were wary of Lommy and Lottie and would explain later. I know it might be old already, but just for the record, what was it about?

Oi, that's going back a ways. I can't remember Lottie off the top of my head, other than been too focused on others to pay close attention to her. But yesterday her posts about the acolyte struck me as good, and thus, just forgetting about her existance.

Lommy, I do, because I'm rather terrible in how I sort of give preferential treatment to people. I noticed Lommy immediately and her early day 1 posts were more frantic and ranty than usual. I mean I know they can look like she's constantly in argument with herself, but to start off frantic and ranting about random votes...if you were with me you could have seen the "?" above my head. I didn't say anything immediately, for the simple fact that I hadn't played with Lommy in so long, I didn't want to immediately start after her. So I went with "I notice her. Watch."

With everything yesterday I forgot about a lot of people, but

...Well, glad I refreshed the page before I continued on with this ramble post of made up garbage...

Touche Lommy. Touche.

[Pitchwife]

Also:
Last Night I chose and succeeded to dream of Boro, who is a wolf.

Based on his going after Shasta so strongly toDay, I think he's 90% likely to be innocent.
You dreamed he's a wolf and you think he's innocent? What the - ?

(EDIT: x-ed with Boro)

[Inziladun]

Also:

You dreamed he's a wolf and you think he's innocent? What the - ?

(EDIT: x-ed with Boro)

I would guess she meant Shasta was likely to be innocent, but I wouldn't go that far personally.

[Boromir88]

Also:

You dreamed he's a wolf and you think he's innocent? What the - ?

(EDIT: x-ed with Boro)

She means Shasta looks innocent, not me.

Silly Lommy, should have let me keep yapping away, I probably could have handed to you my spy-mates. But now. I'm staying zip.

[Pomegranate]

Okay. I'm somewhere between jumping for joy and swearing right now. Jumping for joy, because, if true, Lommy has just made the day of the village. I'm pretty sure she's telling the truth here because I can't see her motivation of being otherwise - as Shasta said earlier today, if the acolyte, as it seems, took the side of the village tonight, we can technically afford to lose one innocent, so if Boro would be found out as such, it would be a suicide for her tomorrow. This also can't be a wolf plan decided during the night, because obviously the narration was up just today.

...and swearing, because a) I trusted Boro somewhat, so I can't even use anything I have said so far to defend myself and b) he has definitely managed to paint me as black as possible. Agh! If (as seems probable) you are a wolf, Boro, I hate you. Just to let you know.

x/ed with everyone after Greenie

[Thinlómien]

Also:

Last Night I chose and succeeded to dream of Boro, who is a wolf.

Based on his going after Shasta so strongly toDay, I think he's 90% likely to be innocent.

You dreamed he's a wolf and you think he's innocent? What the - ?

(EDIT: x-ed with Boro)I meant Shasta is innocent, obviously.

It also fits with her wanting to discuss the Acolyte right out of the gate Day 1.Actually, no - like I said, I only learnt I was the acolyte last Night.

Touche Lommy. Touche.Well hats off to you for convincing me of your innocence for some time. :D


edit: xed with all the three after Pitch whom I quoted

[Inziladun]

Actually, no - like I said, I only learnt I was the acolyte last Night.

You're right, sorry.

[A Little Green]

...Well, glad I refreshed the page before I continued on with this ramble post of made up garbage...

Touche Lommy. ToucheWhat, no conspiracy theories this time? Bleh, what a letdown. ;)

[Pomegranate]

...And after Boro's confession. Yes, I hate you. But I guess this counts - even if I didn't have a full fight with you, I got to be special. Is this how you show me that I'm not counted as a first-timer anymore?

[Inziladun]

I have to say I'm disappointed, and a little uneasy, that Boro gave up so easily. Nog put on such a good show.

[Thinlómien]

Silly Lommy, should have let me keep yapping away, I probably could have handed to you my spy-mates. But now. I'm staying zip.I was aware I could have waited longer to see more of you*, but I wanted to reveal before the voting starts. Of course, you are right that I should have waited if you mean that the potential early voters (Greenie, Pom and/or Pitch) are your fellow wolves. ;)


* anyway there's three Days' worth of your posts to analyse so it shouldn't be a problem.

[Boromir88]

I have to say I'm disappointed, and a little uneasy, that Boro gave up so easily. Nog put on such a good show.

She was far too specific about the role for me to really do any show with fireworks. Eliot had it right, the world goes out in a whimper. :p

I cordially dislike Lommy and Inzil...everyone else. Love you all equally.

Umm...so, I think I've been waiting too long to do this:

++Lommy

[Thinlómien]

Love you too <3


++Boro

[Boromir88]

* anyway there's three Days' worth of your posts to analyse so it shouldn't be a problem.

Hope you brought your Darth Waders to get through all the muck. :D

http://phallicfruits.com/comics/2010-08-20-Darth%20Waders.png

[Pomegranate]

And agreed with Lommy - starting the analysing all over.

And before everyone decides to follow Lommy and Greenie in believing that I'm a wolf, please, look at the bigger picture instead of only looking at what Boro has said about me. I don't know what has driven him - I agree that it feels weird to say that the wolves are after you, even if it's just one wolf - but I am innocent and I can't say it any clearer than that. I know it looks bad, but what can I do? I can't even defend myself since it's not something I have done but something the wolf has said about me.

And after that has been said, I will, as I said, start analysing all over.

[Thinlómien]

Hope you brought your Darth Waders to get through all the muck. :D
http://phallicfruits.com/comics/2010-08-20-Darth%20Waders.pngGreat. :D Well, given that I was expecting I have to fight with you all night, I can now happily devote that time to reading your posts. ;)

ps. Agan who's looking over my shoulder approves of the url.

[A Little Green]

And before everyone decides to follow Lommy and Greenie in believing that I'm a wolf, please, look at the bigger picture instead of only looking at what Boro has said about me. I don't know what has driven him - I agree that it feels weird to say that the wolves are after you, even if it's just one wolf - but I am innocent and I can't say it any clearer than that. I know it looks bad, but what can I do? I can't even defend myself since it's not something I have done but something the wolf has said about me.I don't think I said I believe you're a wolf, but this jumpiness certainly doesn't make me think otherwise! :p Also, Boro and Lommy? Stop being so freaking cute.

[Pomegranate]

Greenie: You said I had a connection with Boro, and while looking at your analysis, I could see where that came from. I was thinking to myself that if Boro will end up being a wolf, I'm going to be seriously annoyed, because he has painted me black, and right after that comes this. I was just thinking that you had drawn the same conclusions already.

[Pitchwife]

Great, I can actually vote early and go to sleep before midnight!

++Boro

For everybody to chew on in the meantime, I think Sally's ominous post #446 was to lay the ground for a fake reveal as the Acolyte. Note how she speaks of "the ordos" like she isn't one herself, and see also my #390 yesterDay which she hasn't answered. She's talked a lot about the role, not all of it making sense.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Well, that makes me feel a little better about myself. I was a little disheartened after Legate ended up not a wolf.

++Boro

Although if Lommy didn't find out she was the acolyte until last Night, that would mean she didn't kill Eruhen, which means it was a modkill after all. I'm sure my shining star was chortling to herself in glee as I took her narration and proceeded to run with it off the nearest cliff, assumption-wise. :rolleyes:

[Loslote]

I don't see why "in the future" has to mean "not in this game", unless you decide to read it so; this is a constructed argument.

I must admit I had more or less forgotten about Lottie for the last two Days (sorry dear), but I don't like this.

That was what I understood the post to mean. Looking at it again, I guess I can see how it could mean something else, but I'd initially thought "not this game" and I still do think that's what Boro was hinting at.

Lommy, I agree I was vague.

Again, Pom feels too cautious and eager to please to me.

Also, what was that change of opinion of Shasta mid-post? You started with "(who's seemed logical and genuine, if not always right, to me this whole game)" and ended up with putting him as the most probable of the innocent-group of yours to be a wolf. I'd say most probably you just had to figure out a reason to suspect Legate, so that you wouldn't seem you're just following others. But tell us, what were you thinking?

Just because someone is logical doesn't mean he's innocent. I'd read his posts throughout the game as making sense and seeming rather genuine, but looking at the rest of the innocents, he was still one of the most wolf-like.

(Also, just to venture a bit further, I wouldn't be surprised if Boro and Pom were packmates. If Pom is a wolf, then I doubt Lottie is one, since she just suggested Boro and Pom are wolves together. Greenie drawing so much attention to him would also be a little risky at this point, so my best guess is Boro-Pom-Sally or if not, then Boro-Pom-Pitch.)

I agree with you about Pom (obviously), and I could see either Pitch or Sally being wolves. I was already a bit wary of Pitch, so I'll go take a closer look at Sally.

Edit: xed with Shasta

[Loslote]

For everybody to chew on in the meantime, I think Sally's ominous post #446 was to lay the ground for a fake reveal as the Acolyte. Note how she speaks of "the ordos" like she isn't one herself, and see also my #390 yesterDay which she hasn't answered. She's talked a lot about the role, not all of it making sense.

I don't think that's so bad. Her 'horrible idea' I thought meant a giant mass lynching of everyone not certifiably innocent, and 'the ordos' demands' just fit the limerick syllables better than something like 'our demands'.

I have a horrible idea that just might work. Is anyone interested?


Or, as they say in Limerick....

I do believe I have a plan
That might meet the ordos' demands
But I rather fear
That no one will hear
Could I get a show of your hands?

[Pomegranate]

Lottie: So clarifying what I suspected about Lommy was to you "playing careful"? And yes, wolves can be logical, but genuine would for me mean something definitely positive.

[Loslote]

Lottie: So clarifying what I suspected about Lommy was to you "playing careful"? And yes, wolves can be logical, but genuine would for me mean something definitely positive.

He seemed more genuine than Legate did, specifically, but not necessarily more genuine than most of the rest of the village. I use genuine in a relative sense, not as a definitive proof of innocence.

[Boromir88]

Final words and testament, please? (Only read what is addressed to you please. Thank you kindly).

To Lommy: I have nothing to say to you.

To Inzil: I have nothing to say to you.

To Pitch: watch out with those objection/scolding posts, if you didn't have me on your side, I would have lynched you for it.

To sally: We share so much appreciation for zombie shows it was perfect sense and a privilege to spy with you again.

To Greenie:
- suspects Shasta based on his reaction to his (Boro's) vote, says it's common knowledge he has no problem with busing his fellows (a hilarious comment if he's a wolf, btw!); says there's an acolyte-focus similarity between Nog and Shasta
That was hilarious, right? Especially since we had such a good laugh about it last night. RIP Nogspy.

To Pom: Nice to see you pick up on the art of back-stabbing your partner very well. I'm not going to hold it against you. Discard the dead weight and live to fight another day.

To Lottie: Now that Lom's joined the innocent count, you won't have to run through a city in heels to make that last second vote to save me.

To Shasta: Yep. Tried bussing you exactly as I did to Nog. Forgive me mate.

To the Priestess: For Gondor!