Most Tragic Figure [Archive] - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Barrow-Wight

02-17-2001, 08:58 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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Re: hehe

I've seen Boromir mentioned now a couple times and I just wanted to say that no matter how hard I look at him I just can't see anything tragic about him. I've never felt sympathy towards his demise or empathy towards his dilema. In fact, I've almost always considered his character to be the most intrusive of the Company, inserted more as a literary link to Gonodor than as a true entity to know and love (or hate). His lifespan is the shortest of the book (for main characters), even Fatty, Butterbur and Wormtongue lasted long than he.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Imp

02-17-2001, 09:19 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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...

Have a heart <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

</p>

HerenIstarion

02-17-2001, 09:34 AM

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 690

Melkor

...without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless...

Orald

02-17-2001, 12:05 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
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Re: ...

Good one H-I, and all that turned away from the light. Hurin and Turin, Turin because he had to live a nightmare, and Hurin because he had to watch his entire family go through that, without being able to do anything.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

red

02-17-2001, 01:43 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Most Tragic Figure

Gollum??? I've never noticed anything redeeming at all about him. Selfish and evil from the beginning.

Maedhros and Maglor may not be the 'most tragic', but they are my favorites. Good guys at the core, but made the huge mistake of taking that terrible oath. Most unlike their horrible brothers, with the possible exception of the twins who we hear little about.

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

noldo

02-17-2001, 03:00 PM

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Re: Most Tragic Figure

I have to agree on Túrin, but you guys see this tragedy thing more as transition of becoming evil with greed and pride set aside. How about Lúthien then? Wasn't her fate tragic?

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The Barrow-Wight

02-17-2001, 04:17 PM

Not to defend him, but Gollum was tragic. And his inability to find redemption is exactly what makes his story a tragedy. Though in the beginning he was an vessel eager for the evil of the Ring, throughout The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings we are shown just how close he came to escaping its control. We are given brief glimpses of his internal battles which almost return him to humanity (hobbitry?, Smeagolry?). The Stinker/Slinker debate in the Dead Marshes demonstrates perfectly the forces that were tearing at poor Gollum. No matter how bad an egg he was to start with he didn't deserve the terrible life the Ring granted him.

Sharkû

02-17-2001, 04:24 PM

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Re: Most Tragic Figure

The classical tragical conflict... no matter what direction, whatever he would have done would have been struck down by fate. Had he repented and become Sméagol again - Sam would still have mistrusted him, and the RIng probably would not have been destroyed. And the way he was - well, certainly no good guy.

</p>

enep

02-17-2001, 04:49 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Most Tragic Figure

Ack! Not another Gollum-good-or-bad argument. I always thought Gollum was tragic; tragic and mistreated perhaps. Torn in two, (or four?) struggling with himself in 'interior debates;' it wasn't really his fault. Poor gollum. Nasssty hobbitsesss. <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=":D">

- enep</p>

Orald

02-17-2001, 04:58 PM

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Re: Most Tragic Figure

I don't believe Luthien's fate to be tragic, it was sad that she died, but that was because she wanted to be counted among men so she could be with Beren when they left the circles of the world.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

enep

02-17-2001, 05:17 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Most Tragic Figure

Although in some senses Beren and Luthien were tragic; they both lived happily ever after together on their own little island. Until their deaths; which were not in vain.

- enep</p>

red

02-17-2001, 05:32 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Most Tragic Figure

My questioning of Gollum was based on the original description of 'tragic' in the first post. <scroll up> Odysseus says a tragic character, "was a basically worthy or great man (or woman) who is brought low by a combination of fate and one fault or weakness." Based on that def, Gollum was NOT tragic. He was never worthy or great by any stretch of the imagination.

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

The Barrow-Wight

02-17-2001, 05:51 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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Re: Most Tragic Figure

Then, indeed, Gollum does not meet Odysseus' admittedly narrow definition of tragic and Túrin would be my only answer (of the two I submitted). I was erroneously going on the common meaning (at least my understanding of it) of tragic. I would still deny Boromir as a tragic character in this sense in that his great deeds were outside the bounds of the story as told and thus, though his fall was well-recorded, the great heights he fell from were never literally established (other than his own retelling of his own deeds).

At least if we open the definition of 'tragic' to a more general meaning I'll already have a good answer posted. <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":/">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Samwise of the shire

02-19-2001, 06:46 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re tragic figures

I think that the Lady Eowen was tragic,fighting with out hope and seeing the Lord Theoden wounded and never again talking to him.Lord Theoden was tragic as well,standing until he fell under his horse.The horse was tragic too......not I was joking.Then there was that pittiful shadow Gollum,he might have been good once but I highly doubt it.And Saruman a beggar finally killed on the doorstep of bagend.Then there was Turin and his sister.Man I was depressed all the next day.Then there was Beren and Luthien I loved the story though.And then there was that one gaurd who fell at helms dike.But there are a whole bunch of stupid pathetic badguys(sauron,saruman,wormtongue,maedhros,maeglin ,morgoth,a few balrogs-to put most of there power into a distroable figure thanks mister erik sir- and a few other if you would like to add just post under mine)
Samwise of the shire

</p>

red

02-19-2001, 07:07 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re tragic figures

I must stand up for my fellow red-head. Maedhros was neither stupid, pathetic nor bad. He was an Elven prince and I doubt that stupid could be applied to any Elven prince though there were a few that struggled with wisdom, a completely different concept. Pathetic? Not even close. Bad? He had a good heart that was torn in two by the awful Oath he took in his youth. <img src=frown.gif ALT=":("> Of all the sons of Feanor, Maedhros is described as the most gentle. He alone stood aside at the burning of Losgar.

What I really can't believe is the company you grouped him with! Maedhros does not belong in a list with Saruman, Sauron, Maeglin, Wormtongue, Morgoth and Balrogs!! Not by a long shot! Are you sure you know who Maedhros is????

-rêd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000094>red</A> at: 2/19/01 8:26:08 pm

red

02-19-2001, 07:48 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re tragic figures

<--- Maedhros!!! <img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

lindil

02-19-2001, 09:11 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> tragic

Turin and family.
Feanor and Maedhros and Maglor [ the rest were bad apples in my book -w/ the possible exception of the son who died at Losgar.

lindil

</p>

Master Caractacus

02-19-2001, 09:12 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re tragic figures

Gilthalion here.

I think that Arwen Undomiel should be named among the most tragic of the figures.

Her hubris can be found in her thought that her mortal choice would be endurable in the end.

It wasn't.

<hr> <center><font size=1>Not much at all to see at http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Website</a></center></p>

red

02-19-2001, 09:16 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re tragic figures

lindil ...and Feanor HIMSELF wasn't a bad apple??? He was as evil as they come! Ack! <img src=eek.gif ALT=":eek">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

Mister Underhill

02-20-2001, 12:52 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re tragic figures

Hey réd, do my eyes deceive me or is Maedhros doing the hula-hoop in that pic you posted?

</p>

BilboFrodo

02-20-2001, 05:56 AM

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Mistake

I would presume you are counting Lord of the Rings as three books which is WRONG, it is one book, it could be classified as six but NEVER three, it was published as three because of the publisher

</p>

The Barrow-Wight

02-20-2001, 06:35 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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Re: Mistake

BilboFrodo, actually you are right and wrong (no caps). The Lord of the Rings has been published in three separate books (The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers and The Return of the King) since its first edition. So there really are three books. <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> The error many people make is to call these three books a trilogy, which would mean three books telling different but related tales.

CLARIFICATION:
The Lord of the Rings was artificially divided into three volumes (books) for publishing reasons. Though the division was artifical, there are still three physical books (listed above). Because each volume is but a part of one whole story and not a sequel or prequel to the other volumes, the three books may not be considered a triliogy.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>  <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 2/20/01 7:56:54 am

Balin999

02-20-2001, 07:13 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Mistake

well your'e right saying its not a trilogy but i got an edition where there is only one book so please don't mind if i say "the book" instead of "the books" <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

Behold the King of Moria!</p>

The Barrow-Wight

02-20-2001, 07:50 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
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Re: 1 Book

Exactly, Balin! One book, three books, seven books (I gottem all <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> ). Doesn't mattter. We know what people mean and can only fault them when they say 'trilogy' (and even then its an easy mistake easily overlooked).

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

Mithadan

02-20-2001, 08:33 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
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Re: 1 Book

JRRT intended LoTR to be published as one book. As Wight comments, it was divided into three for publishing purposes. Further, the 6 "books" the entire tale is divided into was an organizational device. LoTR was not intended to be published as 6 separate books, no matter what the publisher says in connection with the "Millenium Edition".

Most tragic? Any of the great elves in Middle Earth. Elrond, Galadriel, the entire House of Finwe. All were mighty, powerful, and all loved Arda and all lost what they loved, Middle Earth because the Firstborn were "fated" to be supplanted by Man. What could be more tragic to labour on behalf of yourself and your people to maintain an "Elven" land, only to have to give it up (or in the case of the House of Finwe, to fight an unwinnable war and be utterly defeated)?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

lindil

02-20-2001, 08:58 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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Feanor

red -you are of course right about feanor. I did not put him in the same class as 4 of his sons for the reason that he actually produced some of elvendom's greatest works: the feanorian script, the Palantiri, the Silmarilli, ,but it is true caranthir,curufin and celegorm especially seemed to have shared his lack of conscience. It is a scary thought that the folowers of these 4 sons of Feanor must have been a rough and cruel lot to have the brothers as lords.
It was posted thet Maedhros was the kindest of the Son. I would disagree and put Maglor in that position as he tried to talk Maedhros out of regaining the Silmarills after the War of Wrath and harboured Elrond and Elros instead of leavin them to die in the forest.Although i will agree that on occasion Maedhros def. showed a nobility of character missing in the other 5.

lindil

</p>

Odysseus819

02-20-2001, 09:54 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Feanor

Some random comments on the responses, which were all very interesting.

Preliminarily, I have now learned never to refer to LotR as a trilogy -- sorry, i guess that's a major no-no. Since about 9 of you brought this topic up -- I read somewhere that LotR once comprised seven (not six) books. My Q is, what was the "extra" small book?

Back to the thread -- I was thinking of Turin. His story certainly reads like a Greek tragedy. He was a worthy man, but his stubborn refusal to return and accept Thingol's judgment set in motion the whole chain of events that ultimately led to his tragic death.

But I also had Boromir and others (Hurin, e.g.) in mind, and I wanted to find out what others thought. One of the posters was very down on Boromir, but I note that Aragorn though him a vaaaliant man, and the fact that he was willing to face the balrog certainly shows courage. And he dioed heroically. But Turin certainly fits the classic definition better.

</p>

lindil

02-20-2001, 10:49 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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versions

the seventh is the appendices . [there is a version out now of 7 hardbacks]

I didn't mention Boromir - becuse in a spiritual sense his real tragedy was avoided. Taking holdof the ring , or dying while still consumed by it's lust.
He was given an absolution of sorts by Aragorn who in return was sent to 'save ' his people.
so imho - the real tragedy was averted.

lindil

</p>

Orald

02-20-2001, 12:50 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
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Re: versions

Slight point to lindil. Celegorm, Curufin, and Caranthir makes 3 not 4, including Feanor as a son of Feanor is also false, <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> .

Did you mean that there were only four sons that may have been good, or at least not as bad as the ones listed above?

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

red

02-20-2001, 05:54 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: versions

Hmmm...I'm guessing the missing son is the twin that did not die at Losgar. And that lindil meant to group him with the three C's. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> But as little as we read about those two, can we really be sure they shared their father's and brothers' dispositions?

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000094>red</A> at: 2/20/01 6:56:24 pm

enep

02-21-2001, 02:33 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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Re: Re tragic figures

ACK! Burn him on the pyre! <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> Gollum could have been good, and I don't doubt it. Seeing Frodo happy made him more angry...Sam also inflicted pain on him, as did everyone who crossed his path. Poor Gollum. Damn Ring...all Preciousss fault...

- enep</p>

lindil

02-21-2001, 02:59 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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Feanor and sons

I was listing Maedrhos and Maglor as tragic because they at least wrestled w/ their faults and are on record as having acted nobly at times. the 3 C's are not. Every word we hear from them is a variation on ugliness and hate.
[w/ the exception of the just rebuke of Eol].Ambarto [Amrod] was killed by Feanor in the burning of the ships at Losgar [PoME - 'theShibboleth of Feanor']. It is true we know nothing of Amras' disposition so I should have avoided his mention. Feanor himself , probably deserves the label wicked rather than tragic as he never shows remorse , and only increases in folly as time wears on. His actions however led to great tragedy for the 9/10'th's of the Noldor who followed him after the warning of Mandos.

</p>

lindil

02-22-2001, 09:05 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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slander

I said in an earlier post thatCelegorm,curufin and Caranthir spoke no kind words [that were recorded].
well of Caranthir -this i untrue. In the War of the Jewels p.222 [and in the Silm. also I believe] we read:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> " Then caranthir looked kindly upon Menand did Haleth great honour, and he offered her recompense for her father and brother.A nd seeing over late what valour there was in the Edain,he said to her : 'If you will remove and dwell further north , there you shall have the friendship and protecion of the Eldar and free lands of your own' ". <hr></blockquote>

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Mithadan

02-22-2001, 09:37 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
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Re: slander

I think caranthir and Celegorm were the truly distasteful ones. Curufin may have also had his moments. Maglor and Maedhros were the most remorseful and at least recognized that the oath constained them to either commit acts of evil or break their oath. Of Amras we know very little.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Samwise of the shire

02-22-2001, 06:00 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re:all right red

sorry about the misunderstanding it just seemed to me that maedhros's army snuck up behind another army of good guys and slaughtered them.It seemed to me he betrade them but I'm probably wrong -I only read the sillmarilion once- truce? thanks
S.Gamgee

</p>

Luinar

03-04-2001, 11:39 PM

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R

(This message was left blank)

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000426>Luinar</A>  <IMG SRC= http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/white_bluespot.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/5/01 12:40:43 am

Aldaron

03-05-2001, 10:23 PM

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Re: Tragic Figure

There have been a good number who name Feanor. Indeed, I thought he had a tragic flaw from the first time I read of him. His half-brothers spoke to him, trying to make some sort of peace with him, and he ignored them, not even speaking to them. Whatever you wish to name the flaw, pride or anger, it made him the unlikeable character that he was.

</p>

Elenanna

03-07-2001, 09:44 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

I definately think it's Hùrin, he alone had to watch the downfall of his family, and his wife, son and daughters. He believed so much in the elves, and that they would win, but when he was set free he found he was shut out of Gondolin and was shunned by his people, only at the end of his life did he truely escape thralldom and then it was to late, at least he did not know that he brought Turgons kingdom to its end. Fëanor was another, for he saw before he died the strength of Morgoth and knew they didn't have a chance to take back the Silmarils. Maglor and Maedros aswell, for they were kind and goodly and did not want to take the silmarils, but were bound by their oaths... <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

Lacho calad! Drego morn!

</p>

enep

03-08-2001, 02:57 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Welcome, Elenanna!

Hurin's time was definitely not easy, and neither was Feanor, both very tragic characters, indeed. However...

Poor Smeagol. Nasssty hobbitssess.

- enep</p>

Elenanna

03-08-2001, 10:25 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Yes... gollum is a very sad, pityable figure, one of the most tragic in Lotr... or perhaps Theoden, and Denethor. There are quite a few. But out of all of them I feel most sorry for Hùrin.

Lacho calad! Drego morn! - Hurins cry before leaving Hithlum means 'Flame light! Flee night!' Quenyan (I think)

</p>

Inziladun

03-08-2001, 11:44 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 143</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Théoden and Húrin I can find some pity for,but not Denethor. His woes and ignoble ending were results of his pride.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

Elenanna

03-09-2001, 12:04 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Yes, but it was only because his mind was poisoned by sauron when he looked into the palantir. Sauron filled his mind with depair and drove him into madness for which i pity him.

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

Hannah 3

03-09-2001, 12:11 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

<img src=frown.gif ALT=":("> No one here cares about Miriel! <img src=frown.gif ALT=":("> Sure she's not exactly TRAGIC but she depresses me! I mean, she fell asleep forever or something! She's one of my favourites...

But anyway, it has to be Turin. I was really upset the first time I read Beren and Luthien, (When Beren shows his missing hand) but Turin's story was much much worse. I wouldn't count Lalaith as a very tragic figure, but I do count Niniel. With two names like that, she <u>had</u> to have a bad life...

~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

Inziladun

03-09-2001, 12:21 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

It was pride which led Denethor to look in the Palantír in the first place. He had to have known Sauron was likely to be in possession of the Ithil-stone,and did it anyway,thinking himself strong enough to stay in control.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

enep

03-09-2001, 04:06 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Welcome, Hannah 3!

Not to say we don't feel sorry for Miriel - but her status in Tolkien's cosmos as told by him is...well... minor so to speak. Falling asleep forever would not be nice, though <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

Turin, Beren, Luthien, Niniel, Denethor...the list goes on. Tragedy seems to be a very present theme in Tolkien's works.

- enep</p>

Hannah 3

03-09-2001, 09:29 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Well, but Aragorn looked into the palantir and stayed in control - of course, he's a lot stronger, but it's not pride. Why does it become pride in Denathor?

Yes, Miriel isn't usially quite what comes to mind when you think of the real tragedies... but I'm sorry for her anyway.

Well, Tolkien made the Silmarilion very tragic, but I don't think anyone in L.R. is so very sad. Denethor, Gollum, Saruman... that's all I can think of right now.
Beren and Luthien I wouldn't call tragic. Losing a hand is bad, but ever such a lot of people seem to lose hands and fingers when they hold precious things in those books.

~*~Hannah~*~,
The caged bird sings with a fearful trill
Of things unknown, but longed for still
And his tune is heard on the distant hills
For the caged bird sings of freedom. ~Maya Angelou, 'Caged bird', 'Shaker, why don't you sing?'</p>

Elenanna

03-09-2001, 09:49 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Hello hannah <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)"> , i can name another one in lotr. some people \will disagree w/ me on this but i think Boromir was sort of sad, after all it was the influence of the ring that caused him to attack frodo... mind you he did die happy or rather at peace

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

Hannah 3

03-09-2001, 12:52 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

I wouldn't disagree with that...

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000108>Hannah 3</A>  <IMG SRC=http://www.clipartcastle.com/anim3/shining_star.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/11/01 2:28:26 am

Inziladun

03-09-2001, 03:16 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Aragorn looked into the Stone of Orthanc with the intention of encountering Sauron,and frightening him into beginning his war prematurely.And he only looked that one time until after the War.Denethor's motives were less pure. Gandalf and Thorongil (Aragorn) had much influence over Denethor's father,Ecthelion II.Denethor was jealous of Thorongil and disliked Gandalf.He wanted to use the Palantír to keep an eye on them,and to gather information.
Judging from his words to Gandalf
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "Yea,for though the Stones be lost they say,still the lords of Gondor have keener sight than lesser men,and many messages come to them."<hr></blockquote>
he seems quite proud of his actions.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

Elenanna

03-09-2001, 09:42 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Tragic Figure

Even though Denethor became proud there are alot of people whose pride bought them to a downfall... Turin {yes i know he also had the curse of morgoth on him so he doesn't really count} saruman {i should think that sum1 would feel sorry for him, he was a great wizard before his pride took controll} feanor {now plenty of people feel sorry for him even though he was full of pride} i know there are more but i cant think of them right now... <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

Lush

03-20-2002, 09:54 PM

Ooh. Neat neat thread. Just to throw my 2 cents in (about a year too late, eh?), is not the classic definition of a tragic hero not only a tragic flaw, but also a realiztion, an epiphany, at the end of his life?
If this is indeed the case, then Denethor does not qualify. Boromir does, and how! Not sure about Feanor, not according to the textbook definition, at least, but really, if he's not tragic, who is?

Marileangorifurnimaluim

03-20-2002, 10:08 PM

I guess then tragedy has to be in the eyes of the one who experience it, rather than in the eyes those who watch. Does the realization have to come right before the moment of death, or does it simply need to be that the person is otherwise never given the opportunity to rectify what made the tragedy?

Turambar

03-21-2002, 09:38 AM

Lush -

I forgot about this thread! (I was Odysseus819 in a past life.) I never heard (or don’t remember, more likely) the notion that a late epiphany is characteristic of a tragic hero, but it makes sense. Feanor had such an epiphany; I believe the Silm says that just before he dies Feanor knew “with the foreknowledge of the doomed” (or something like that) that the Noldor would never overcome Morgoth (and thus, the quest that Feanor led would fail). Turin also, although his epiphany was a curious (and characteristically dark) one - it seemed to consist in finally realizing the completeness of Morgoth’s revenge and his near-total control over Turin’s fate.

My candidates for most tragic would be Turin and Boromir, with Feanor getting the bronze.
http://www.plauder-smilies.de/bawling.gif

Mhoram

03-21-2002, 10:32 AM

1. Turin
2. Hurin
3. Gollum
4. Feanor
5. Isildur
6. Maglor
7. Maedhros
8. Denethor
9. Nienor
10. Gwindor
11. Finwe
12. Beleg
13. Saruman
14. Isfin/Aredhel
15. Maeglin
16. Thrain II
17. Thror
18. Wormtounge
19. Frodo

I tend to only consider characters as tragic if
A)Their moment of tragedy is brought on by little or no fault of their own or
B)They don't redeem themself somehow, like Boromir. Meaning, Maehdros is tragic because he didn't redeem himself. Boromir isn't tragic because he did.

EDIT- Ai! How could I forget Beleg? He goes right in around Finwe.

EDIT 2- After thinking about it, Gwindor should be higher. Done.

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

zifnab

03-21-2002, 11:19 AM

Great thread to be brought back from the dead, over a year old! This one sure beats the current ones, “Who’s your Favorite” and “Who would you take home for summer vacation”. Is there a “Marriage” one out yet? smilies/rolleyes.gif

I think you guys pretty much covered the majority of them. Good list Mho, I don’t totally agree on the order, but is covers a great deal. I would definitely put the “House of Hador” as my top pick, that covers all of Hurin, Huor and company. In my opinion, if you included Boromor and Gollum, shouldn’t you also include some characters like:

Beleg Cúthalion
Mîm the “petty” dwarf
Aredhel
Faramir

I won’t go into detail about what “tragedy” I think befall these characters but if Boromor and Gollum are on the list, then shouldn’t these be too?

Lush

03-21-2002, 11:30 AM

I think it's one thing to feel sorry for a character (like Denethor, I pity him), and another thing to apply the textbook definition of a tragedy to him/her.
On the other hand, my definition is Shakespearean, i.e. King Lear qualifies as a tragedy because Lear has an epiphany, Macbeth as well.
Turambar, it appears that you were as prolific in your past life as you are in your current one. smilies/smile.gif

Mhoram

03-21-2002, 11:50 AM

Thanks for the reminder on Beleg zif, I meant to put him in there but just forgot. Got Aredhel as Isfin.

red

03-21-2002, 11:55 AM

*nudges Gwindor up several spots on Mhoram's list* smilies/wink.gif

-réd

Turambar

03-21-2002, 02:53 PM

Random thoughts:

Obviously it all depends on your definition of “tragic”. Mhoram has stated his definition carefully, and it seems almost the opposite of the original definition with Lush’ amendment (a great man brought low by a single “tragic flaw”, has a realization before death). Mhoram’s list definitely raises some interesting questions. Mhoram, if your list is for ppl whose “moment of tragedy is brought on by little or no fault of their own”, I guess you blame Morgoth wholly or almost wholly for Turin’s troubles, which is reasonable. Still, you have to wonder - if Turin’s pride didn’t prevent him from accepting Thingol’s pardon, would he have ended the way he did? I put Turin on the list because I think he was a good man “deep down”, but afflicted like many tragic heroes with a fatal dose of hubris, and in effect doomed himself. He has a little Coriolanus in him.

On the other hand, I’m not sure Hurin would fit under the original definition - as sad as his life was, what was his tragic flaw? Should he not have gone to the Nirnaeth?

Gollum is certainly a pathetic character but putting him on the list raises the whole question of whether he was evil from the start or undone by the One Ring. I lean toward the first view.

Lush - Mhoram did a smilies/smile.gif but red did a smilies/mad.gif . Now if they BOTH smile in one thread we’ll surely know that day has come again.

P.s. just noticed red's winkie - CLOSE ENOUGH
http://www.plauder-smilies.de/lol2.gif

[ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: Turambar ]

Maikadilwen

03-21-2002, 03:14 PM

Hmmm. Tragic figures? Definately the Nazgûl. Poor wraiths. Once great kings, betrayed by their one weakness: Their greed. Now being held captive in a state between life and death, always remembering what once was.

Oh yes, and Sauron himself of course. Not kidding!!! He IS tragic. smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif smilies/frown.gif

Mhoram

03-21-2002, 03:44 PM

Turambar, I did not examine it so closely as that, nor do I desire to.

Turambar

03-21-2002, 03:55 PM

That's more like it ! smilies/smile.gif

Sharkû

03-21-2002, 04:02 PM

I think the vain struggle against fate, and the circumstance that all valour turns out ill is vital enough to a definition of tragic to qualify Húrin.
His steadfastness was it that brought the curse upon his kin, his slaying of Mîm and the involvement in the tale of the Nauglamîr spawned the ruin of Doriath.

On an off-topic note, I never knew you were Odysseus, Turambar (I probably just missed that, were you a 'victim' of the forum move to UBB?). Either way, you probably should get a custom title by now... let's see to that.

red

03-21-2002, 08:37 PM

Gollum is certainly a pathetic character but putting him on the list raises the whole question of whether he was evil from the start or undone by the One Ring. I lean toward the first view. -TurambarHere, here! I must agree. How anyone can see anything good in that snivelling little fellow is beyond me! Started evil, ended evil and all evil in between. He'd never make my "tragic" list.

Actually, I don't think there is enough good in Turin for him to make my list either. He was too rash and prideful. Curse or no curse.

-réd

red

03-21-2002, 08:41 PM

Looking back over diligent Mho's list, I see several more baddies that are too evil for the term "tragic" (in my book). smilies/smile.gif

They would be: Feanor, Denethor, Saruman, Maeglin and Wormtongue.

Bad, bad, bad!!!

-réd

Sharkû

03-21-2002, 09:38 PM

Just a couple of random additions:

Finduilas (tragic death)
Sador Labadal (did not have a chance to win honour, but got shame when wounding himself)
Fingon (died tragically at the Nirnaeth after the cruel hoax of Morgoth with Gelmir)
Gelmir and Arminas (unable to change the fate and let Ulmo's counsel be heeded)
Arvedui (tragic death)
Thorin (tragical influence of greed)
Brandir (counsels and actions went awry)
Fangorn, the Ents and Entwives
Balrogs (how tragic is it to have wings but not be able to fly?!)

Mister Underhill

03-21-2002, 09:43 PM

In his Poetics, Aristotle offers these ideas (somewhat condensed, for your convenience) of what makes a tragedy: A perfect tragedy should [...] imitate actions which excite pity and fear, this being the distinctive mark of tragic imitation. It follows plainly, in the first place, that the change of fortune presented must not be the spectacle of a virtuous man brought from prosperity to adversity: for this moves neither pity nor fear; it merely shocks us. Nor, again, that of a bad man passing from adversity to prosperity: for nothing can be more alien to the spirit of Tragedy; it possesses no single tragic quality; it neither satisfies the moral sense nor calls forth pity or fear. Nor, again, should the downfall of the utter villain be exhibited. A plot of this kind would, doubtless, satisfy the moral sense, but it would inspire neither pity nor fear; for pity is aroused by unmerited misfortune, fear by the misfortune of a man like ourselves. Such an event, therefore, will be neither pitiful nor terrible. There remains, then, the character between these two extremes- that of a man who is not eminently good and just, yet whose misfortune is brought about not by vice or depravity, but by some error or frailty.

[...]

Fear and pity may be aroused by spectacular means; but they may also result from the inner structure of the piece, which is the better way, and indicates a superior poet. For the plot ought to be so constructed that, even without the aid of the eye, he who hears the tale told will thrill with horror and melt to pity at what takes Place.

[...]

Let us then determine what are the circumstances which strike us as terrible or pitiful. Actions capable of this effect must happen between persons who are either friends or enemies or indifferent to one another. If an enemy kills an enemy, there is nothing to excite pity either in the act or the intention - except so far as the suffering in itself is pitiful. So again with indifferent persons. But when the tragic incident occurs between those who are near or dear to one another- if, for example, a brother kills, or intends to kill, a brother, a son his father, a mother her son, a son his mother, or any other deed of the kind is done- these are the situations to be looked for by the poet.

[...]

The action may be done consciously and with knowledge of the persons [...]. Or, again, the deed of horror may be done, but done in ignorance, and the tie of kinship or friendship be discovered afterwards. [...] Again, there is a third case - to be about to act with knowledge of the persons and then not to act. The fourth case is when someone is about to do an irreparable deed through ignorance, and makes the discovery before it is done. These are the only possible ways. For the deed must either be done or not done - and that wittingly or unwittingly. But of all these ways, to be about to act knowing the persons, and then not to act, is the worst. It is shocking without being tragic, for no disaster follows. It is, therefore, never, or very rarely, found in poetry. [...] The next and better way is that the deed should be perpetrated. Still better, that it should be perpetrated in ignorance, and the discovery made afterwards. There is then nothing to shock us, while the discovery produces a startling effect. The last case is the best…Under this set of criteria, Túrin’s tale is probably the most classically tragic.

Kalimac

03-21-2002, 09:45 PM

If I remember English class correctly, a tragic hero was defined, Lush-like, as someone who was brought low by "a fatal flaw" - in other words, it was an avoidable disaster, as opposed to, for example, having scaffolding sudden fall on you from a forty-storey building that you happened to be walking under - that is sad and horrible, but so random that there was no way to really *avoid* it. Personally I prefer the first definition - the second one is good as well but it would seem to have more potential for just turning into a question of who had the worst luck, as opposed to the psychologically twisty "who *made* his worst luck?"

My choice for that (going by LOTR proper) would be Denethor. He didn't really seem evil, certainly not incipiently evil the way Sauron was, but he had a fatal flaw which you could see, well, a palantir's distance away, and that was Pride. "Did you think that the eyes of the White Tower were blind?" He thought that he had the right and the ability to use the Palantir as well as the heirs of Elendil, and also that by using it to look into Sauron's dominions that he would somehow have the ability to see what Sauron did not want him to. Denethor was great, but he was not as powerful as Sauron, Saruman, or even Aragorn (since Aragorn had a blood-right to the Palantir) and could not make himself so by means of the Palantir. Instead it turned what was obviously a once good and worthy if somewhat grim Steward into a madman who was capable of burning his own son alive.

It's hard to feel sorry for Saruman the same way, since he looked into the Palantir out of pure self-interest (increasing his knowledge, increasing his personal power) and also must have had a better idea of the risks, since he was a wizard. But Denethor must have looked at least partly out of concern and fear for the realm he was ruling, trying to see how best to defend himself against the evil in the outside world. But still, it was the wrong thing for him to do - pride led him to it and eventually he died insane because of it.

Kalimac

03-21-2002, 09:47 PM

Mister Underhill, I didn't see that until after posting the last message - thanks! Aristotle said it rather better smilies/smile.gif.

Turambar

03-22-2002, 07:29 AM

Following up on red's post about Feanor - it's strange that, in the Silm and UT atleast, we never see his "good side", other than the works of his hands and his love for his father. We never see him acting as a good friend, brother, father, husband, etc. Are there any such portrayals in HoME?

Estelyn Telcontar

03-24-2002, 08:51 AM

Mho, did you notice that your list has only male names?! How about the women who were tragic characters? Sharku at least mentioned Finduilas...
From LotR, Eowyn has the tragic element of loving Aragorn without being loved in return - that changes later, but is tragic nonetheless.
From Appendix A, Gilraen (Aragorn's mother)is a tragic character, dying hopeless: "I gave Hope to the Dunedain, I have kept no hope for myself."
And what about Tar-Miriel (Silm), being forced into marriage by a man who used her to get the crown, then brought ruin upon Numenor and death to her in its destruction?!Perhaps others who know the Silm and UT better than I do can find additional examples of tragic women's fates!

Mhoram

03-24-2002, 09:16 AM

Isfin/Aredhel and Nienor

Ahanarion

03-24-2002, 01:25 PM

Hurin and all of his children were the most tragic. Boromir was not truly tragic he repented and gave his life so Merry and Pippin could live although his death was sad(not tragic). Gollum was not tragic but his story is sad. Feanor was sad not tragic I would not call him evil I would rather say he had excessive hubris. Maedhros was tragic. Fingolfin was sad but inspiring.

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ahanarion ]

Estelyn Telcontar

03-24-2002, 02:43 PM

Sorry, Mho - didn't recognize those female names! smilies/rolleyes.gif Please accept humble apology!

Nice-Smeagol

03-28-2002, 04:53 AM

Gollum was definitley a tragic character! Okay not according to the definition of tragic at the start of this forum, but even if he wasn't a great hero in the begining, the books don't claim that "before" he got the Ring he didn't do any bad things and it was the Ring's power over him that caused him to turn into the small, obsessed, twisted (the list goes on and on) shadow of a hobbit. All the Preicousss' fault... gollum.... smilies/frown.gif

Turambar

03-28-2002, 10:35 AM

Actually, he murdered Deagol before he ever touched the Ring. As someone on BD once pointed out, this is the only recorded case of murder-by-hobbit. Seems like he was bad from the start, though I admit he is a pathetic and somewhat pitiable character during the War of the Ring.

[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Turambar ]

inglorion

03-29-2002, 05:24 AM

Ofcourse hurin and all his family were striken by doom, just as happened to beren and luthien.
But that's all one sort of doom.
The Sackville-Bagginses to are tragic in another way. How would you feel if you want to have something really bad and you're waiting for year after year and then you hear it doesn't come to you at all. (Bilbo taking Frodo as his heir)

greetings, lathspell

Nari

03-29-2002, 05:35 AM

personally i feel for eowyn, after she loved someone so much and he didnt love her back. i can identify with that, though i wouldnt go to a war for it...

ElfRayor

03-29-2002, 06:11 AM

hmm... yes i think so

Eowyn of Ithilien

03-29-2002, 07:52 AM

I don't regard Eowyn as tragic, for though she came through hardship she was rewarded with happiness smilies/smile.gif
Feanor is the most tragic character because he had the greatest gifts, but caused the downfall of the Noldor

ainur

03-29-2002, 09:27 AM

A scholar could conceivably read "The Silmarillion" as a 'how-to' of greek-type tragedy with every archetypal tragic hero represented from Feanor, whose ego was the root source of all the tragic events that followed (and whose brilliance was the root cause of all the great deeds) to Turin whose sufferings never seemed to be his fault but were the source of his great deeds.
But what about Frodo?
Certainly he was capable of 'greatness' or he would never have reached the Cracks of Doom, despite Sam's help. The torment of the ring would have consumed a lesser mortal and yet he struggled on. But, ultimately, he failed. Literally on the brink of Doom, he declared the ring his own, and it was only Gollums lust for the ring that achieved its destruction, a fitting end for its evil. But Frodo's ultimate failure ended his life, the life he had known, as surely as a knife in the heart. More surely, for the catharsis of this climax is all the more poignant as we witness chapter after chapter of Frodo's demise into ennui--far more moving than his mere death would have been.

zifnab

03-29-2002, 10:41 AM

The Sackville-Bagginses to are tragic in another way. How would you feel if you want to have something really bad and you're waiting for year after year and then you hear it doesn't come to you at all.

I don't agree with you about that. I think everybody has hopes and dreams, and sometimes they get crushed. Should we call the lifes of the "Gaurwaith" tragic, since they were outcasts and homeless. No, the were greedy, treacherous,ad thought more with their swords then with there heads. Much like Lobelia Sackville-Bagginses(without the sword). And if you are talking about Otho and Lobelia getting Bag End, they did after Frodo left, although I thing that Otho had already died.

Tragic? Maybe female dwarves? Its not really tradgic, but sad none-the-less. Female dwarves only represent about 1/3 the dwarven population. And many of the dwarves(f and m) chose not to marry or reproduce. That sure will cut down on the surplus population. I think its more "tragic", that we don't read more about it. Only "Dís", and Gimli's rare but heartfelt love for Galadriel.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]

Mister Underhill

03-29-2002, 01:18 PM

You forgot the most tragic feature of Dwarvish females, ziffy -- facial hair!

I must disagree on one of your points: I hardly think that they would consider the 2:1 ratio of male:female tragic.

Hmm... 2 to 1 ratio, facial hair... sounds like more than one college party I can recall.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

Nice-Smeagol

03-30-2002, 12:56 PM

Actually, he murdered Deagol before he ever touched the Ring.
Even though he hadn't touched the ring he was still in its power because of its beauty and though he hadn't touched it he would have been lusting for it then and there.
Also Deagol refused to give Smeagol the ring so he was probably in its power as well.
So there Turambar smilies/mad.gif smilies/mad.gif smilies/mad.gif smilies/mad.gif smilies/mad.gif

Mhoram

03-30-2002, 02:53 PM

Did we mention the ents? I didn't but they should be on my list.

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

Eowyn of Ithilien

03-31-2002, 05:39 AM

but Gollum was already turning away from light when the Ring was found.

zifnab

04-01-2002, 09:37 AM

Ents. Good one Mhoram. Through all the chaos of the world, the Ents still stayed true to their reason of creation. The Shepherds of the Trees.

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]

doug*platypus

04-12-2004, 05:29 AM

When I first opened this thread I had intended to name Finrod as the Most Tragic Figure. He is (in my opinion) the most noble and gentle of the Noldor who took part in the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. This evil deed was his tragedy, a fatal flaw which was in part his fault, in part the fault of others, and it was the means by which Sauron was able to pierce his disguise and eventually slay him.

However, I am now not sure that Finrod fits comfortably into the definition of a tragic hero. His fatal flaw was perhaps not significant enough; it was not a character trait. Also, his redemption is too complete. He atones so completely that even nassty old Mandos lets him go. He returns again to walk with his father Finarfin in Tirion. In case you can't tell, the deeds of Finrod in the Tale of Beren and Lúthien are now my favourite part of The Silmarillion!

Red said (Dr Suess, anyone?):
How anyone can see anything good in that snivelling little fellow is beyond me! Started evil, ended evil and all evil in between. He'd never make my "tragic" list.

Actually, I don't think there is enough good in Turin for him to make my list either. He was too rash and prideful. Curse or no curse.I wholeheartedly agree. Going back to the well researched quotes of Mister Underhill, Aristotle advises:Nor, again, should the downfall of the utter villain be exhibited. Túrin, villain? Yes. No pity from the platypus for him. Húrin is a different story on the other hand. His only flaw was the pride that did not allow him to embrace Thingol as a friend (the slaying of Mîm was understandable), but most of his woes came from Morgoth, which Aristotle would have considered poor tragedy:It follows plainly, in the first place, that the change of fortune presented must not be the spectacle of a virtuous man brought from prosperity to adversity: for this moves neither pity nor fear; it merely shocks us. My list of the Most Tragic Figures:
Thingol
Maedhros
Turgon
Thorin Oakenshield
Finduilas
Boromir
My criteria are firstly how good the character was in the beginning, and secondly how much of an impact their tragedy had on others. Thingol started as one of the most noble and powerful Children of Ilúvatar, but brought about the ruin of his kingdom through greed and haughtiness. Boromir would not have made my list if it had not been for his portrayal in the movies (he was a character that was actually improved by them IMHO). Maglor I have not included, since he seemed to be following more than leading (he was willing to set aside the Oath in the end, if not entirely able). Also he gets extra credit for looking after Elrond and Elros.

Dininziliel

04-12-2004, 09:03 PM

1. Frodo & Gollum
2. Beleg & Gwindor

I did a quick & dirty reconnaisance of my previous (and very dusty) classical literature training--which means I did a quick search on the internet & in my big, fat, 30 lb. Webster's 3rd New (actually, not so new ;) ) International Dictionary, which around here is known as the Final Word. According to the definitions given in each of those (very simply--a noble being brought low by situations/fate beyond his/her control), those people fit.

Frodo & Gollum need no discussion.

I always agonize a bit when Beleg & Gwindor appear--they are so noble, heroic, brave, and kind--yet they attach themselves to Turin and are brought to highly ignoble ends. Of the latter two, I'd say Gwindor is the more tragic because, knowing how he would be perceived, he still stood true to what he knew was right.

At any rate, all these characters remained steadfast in their chosen courses to the bitter end, and suffered bitterly for it. True, Frodo was healed in Aman, but before that he suffered greatly.

Maédhros

04-13-2004, 11:04 PM

Angry Hill Troll

04-20-2004, 08:47 PM

I agree with the nominations on behalf of Maédhros and Túrin, but for me the most tragic figure is Fëanor, and the Valar agree with me on this ;)

And [the Valar] mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of all the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike, of all the children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive. And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head.

I think Fëanor fits the mold of a tragic figure by the extent of his fall from greatness, and in his own personality defects playing a critical role in his fall. Certainly his personality and rather complicated family situation made him much more susceptible to Melkor's machinations than any others of the Noldor. For me he seems rather reminiscent of Hamlet (well, except for the indecisiveness) just as Túrin does of Oedipus.

doug*platypus

04-20-2004, 09:50 PM

You make a very good case, Angry Hill Troll. Most of us would shy away from placing Fëanor as a tragic figure. He was largely to blame for the suffering of many, many Eldar, and his good qualities are often overlooked. Mainly because there seem to have been so few of them! :(

Incidentally, if anyone is still interested, here is a link to the thread about the possible guilt of Finrod being associated with the Kinslaying:

Finrod and the Kinslaying (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10608)

According to the definitions given in each of those (very simply--a noble being brought low by situations/fate beyond his/her control), those people fit.

Frodo & Gollum need no discussion. I'm not clear on how these two could be considered as tragic figures. Dilinziliel, when was Gollum ever noble? And how was Frodo brought low? He may have ended up in a worse position than he started in, but morally he was in fact superior by the end of the story. The Aristotleian definition provided by Mister Underhill would not consider Frodo as a tragic figure, I believe.

Gothmog

04-21-2004, 11:03 AM

Ok, I know that this may sound very strange, but what about Melkor, Morgoth?
We don't know much about the time before Ainurs song, but we do know that Melkor was the greatest of Ainur. He was one of Iluvatars creations and he wasn't evil to start with, he just wanted to create something that wasn't exactly as Iluvatar had planned. He didn't do it to destroy something, he just felt that there was something missing.

From being one of the greatest Ainur to become Morgoth, that must be the biggest downfall ever, if thats the definition we're going to use of "tragic".

Apart from Melkor then... After reading only the headline, I thought of Turin. After reading the threads (well, not all of them) a want to name Feänor too, I agree with Angry Hill Troll

Do you think Melkor is terribly wrong???

Angry Hill Troll

04-21-2004, 05:42 PM

Gothmog, the thought of Melkor had crossed my mind as well. Thanks for suggesting it!

While reading the Ainulindale I felt quite a bit of sympathy for Melkor. All he was doing was being so in awe of the whole creation concept that he wanted to take part in it himself. Nor can we really blame him for being the way he was, since after all that was how Ilúvatar made him...

I think what is missing in the case of Melkor is that most tragic heroes either die fairly quickly after their "fall", or at least come to a transcendental moment of clarity, realizing their own faults and taking responsibility for the consequences of their misguided actions. Melkor never does acknowledge his wrongdoings, except as a ruse to corrupt Valinor, and by the time he finally dies, we the readers have long since run out of sympathy for him. Simply stated, he wore out his welcome as a tragic hero.

Also, one of Aristotle's points is that a good tragedy produces fear in the part of the audience, because what happened to the tragic hero (being undone by a combination of circumstances and one's own faults) could conceivably happen to them as well--after all, who is without faults? But Melkor's fall is unique: no other being was in a position to be the ultimate source of all that is evil in the world. To some extent the same applies to Fëanor as well--no other child of Ilúvatar could fall so far simply because no other was as great to begin with. But Fëanor was the first, and most poignant example, of the power of Melkor's evil to corrupt the Children of Ilúvatar in general . For this reason his fall strikes fear in the Valar (since they now realize just how much damage Melkor is capable of doing) and in the other Eldar.

Thoughts, anyone?

Bombadil

04-21-2004, 06:05 PM

Beren
luthien

and someone, i forgot who, had a great point. That their end - though tragic was still a happy death for both of them. But it was still tragic for others, to see the heroes, who fought for love, who took a silmaril from Morgoth himself - dead.

paladin took

04-21-2004, 11:48 PM

If a tragic hero is defined as a noble person with a fatal flaw that brings them to a low, then I would argue that Faramir is too one of the books tragic heroes. His fatal flaw being his will to prove his value to his father, even when it means almost killing himself. At no time during the book does it seem that he has pleased Denethor.

I guess in a way, the entire family is tragic.

Gothmog

04-22-2004, 05:50 AM

I think what is missing in the case of Melkor is that most tragic heroes either die fairly quickly after their "fall", or at least come to a transcendental moment of clarity, realizing their own faults and taking responsibility for the consequences of their misguided actions. Melkor never does acknowledge his wrongdoings, except as a ruse to corrupt Valinor, and by the time he finally dies, we the readers have long since run out of sympathy for him. Simply stated, he wore out his welcome as a tragic hero.

Your right Hill Troll, you don't feel any compassion with Melkor, he's fallen too far and for too long time. Therefore I nominate Feanor and Turin for the Most Tragic Figure. Why? Well, read the the other posts...

Vanya

04-28-2004, 03:27 AM

Somehow, Isildur's fate made very sad impression on me. He was great man, who did lots of heroic things (such as saving the seeds of White tree from Sauron in Numenor, what costed him many serious wounds), founded Gondor along with his brother, fought many battles, made Gondor and Arnor powerfull kingdoms, been wise king: but, he is rememberd mostly by his unfortunate desision to keep the ring, what brought him and to his sons, death at Gladen fields. So, everything good that he did became annuled by this.
So, I vote for Isildur.

The Saucepan Man

04-28-2004, 06:13 AM

Fair points, Vanya, particularly as Isildur was on his way to Rivendell to seek counsel on what should be done with the Ring, having realised his error in not destroying it, when he was waylaid and killed.

But it has been pointed out that, to be a truly tragic figure, an individual's own personality defects should play a critical role in his downfall. I wonder how much of Isildur's refusal to destroy the Ring was his own pride, and how much was the influence of the Ring itself. Tolkien makes the point in his Letters that no one could willingly have destroyed the Ring. Can Isildur really be described as tragic, when the failing which led to his downfall was something which no one could be expected to resist?

Vanya

04-28-2004, 06:26 AM

Well, in my oppinion, tragic means just the oposite, when someone is doomed without any guilt of it's own. I think that great deal of missfortune that happened to Turin, he brought to himself, because his temper. So this is just the reason Isildur is tragic for me - because he died because he could't rule the Ring. It wasn't his fault, since the real question is whether he was proud or he wasn't aware of Ring's nature?

Dininziliel

05-03-2004, 09:20 PM

doug*platypus--ahem . . . [shakes her head slowly, still trying to recall the iron-clad, sterling logic that had added up to a sum that turned out to be far less than its parts] um, gosh . . . having gone back and read my own criteria, I guess there's not much to defend Gollum. He could never have been considered as possessing a noble character. Tolkien says as much in Letters of . . . ; Gollum merely had the potential to become noble in that one brief moment of pity & love for Frodo. Gollum could have opted for forgiveness and transcended the fate of his path to that point; however, he chose that path and its fate. I think this may have been what was on my mind--he could have been a contender and all he "got" was a lousy one-way ticket to palookaville. Sad, yes; tragic, no. Now, if he had opted for forgiveness in that moment w/Frodo and gone on to carry the Ring to Doom and then wrestled w/himself on the edge and fallen to a firey, molten death below . . .

Frodo, though, we could argue, albeit the points are fine and feathery. Frodo was definitely a noble character pitted against a situation in which he was doomed to fail and fall low. The falling low part is the wishbone of contention. This is what is most fascinating to me this week about Frodo--if he had not been gifted with a healing in Aman, he would, indeed, be a candidate for tragic hero. He was fading out to the world and the world was fading out to him--all was joyless and gray. But, he did get the healing in Aman. The question as I consider it now is: can Frodo qualify as a tragic hero because of his suffering and certain end in this world (ME), or must he be disqualified for being healed out of this world?

aredhelthewhite

04-23-2005, 11:39 AM

Turin and Hurin had it pretty bad and there was gollum which was obsessably evil and weird but still....

Lathriel

04-23-2005, 03:18 PM

I haven't had time to read the whole thread but so far nobody seems to have mentioned Denethor. I find that he is a sad character. I pity him because he has fallen so far. In his younger days he was a brilliant steward but he ended up being corrupted by Sauron. Not only that, he went mad as well. As if that wasn't enough his favourite son had to be killed as well.

Of course Gollum is an obvious choice and thus Denethor becomes forgotten. Bu another character I pity is Saruman. At first he was good but in the end he has become almost as evil as Sauron. However, if he had stayed at the good side of things he could have achieved so much more.

Feanor of the Peredhil

04-23-2005, 05:22 PM

Faramir.

Faramir was the most tragic character.

His brother died, and suddenly he was forced to be two people ... himself, who his father ignored largely, because of the reminder of his mother and her death, because of the reminder of Gandalf and his own petty rivalry with the Wizard, and because of personal differences in ethics.

And then he was forced to fill Boromir's role, which was something impossible to do. For starters, as far as being a Captain and commander of Gondor, Faramir was already one, and already loved by the people, but bearing the brunt of his father's superior love of Boromir, and being for all intents and purposes sacrificed for a lost cause (retaking Osgiliath) ... not good.

There are remarkable parallels and reversals in the Boromir and Faramir stories that are something to note;

Aside from talking about what would have happened had their roles been switched ... and how things would have probably worked out better (for the most part, Faramir would probably have lived, helped track Merry & Pippin, stemmed any problems with Eomer, met Eowyn much sooner, fought in Helm's Deep and really lent a hand, offered a direct line to Gondor and their take to Theoden, and rode with Gandalf back to Minas Tirith, while Boromir did a better job of holding the River) ...

Boromir was slain by arrows, Faramir was nearly slain by arrows ... they both really got along with the younger hobbits, they were very much alike, even though Frodo noted that Faramir was more like Aragorn, compared to Boromir being like Denethor ...

Anyway, he was the most tragic character for me, but luckily his fate wasn't sealed in that tragedy like Boromir ... he got to live happily ever after.

Keeper of Dol Guldur

04-23-2005, 05:26 PM

Shoot ... folks, that post was mine (Faramir, blah, blah, tragic).

My sister (Feanor of the Peredhil) forgot to log out the last time she used my computer ...

And, since I don't really pay much attention, I hopped on and started posting.

No big deal ... but if anyone feels like repping me or something ... rep me. Heck, boost her rep too if you feel like it ...

Estelyn Telcontar

04-24-2005, 06:32 AM

Keeper, there's a simple way to solve that problem - copy, paste, repost. Then it's obviously your own contribution!

(This post will self-combust when it has been seen... )

swiftshadowofutumno

04-24-2005, 09:40 AM

I'm very sorry if I missed anyone saying this but... has anyone mentioned Galadriel?

Exile is tragic too, and few experience such exile as Galadriel.

(Although it is clear that on some level she doesn't really want to go back to Valinor, at least at first, it is also clear that part of this desire stems directly from anger AT being exiled - making it even more tragic.)

I also felt personally sorry for Celebrimbor, although I don't think tragic is quite the word. He was misled into creating the most beautiful works of his life, and before he was cruelly killed he had the majority of them usurped from him, saw his favourite of them taken forever into hiding, and witnessed the ultimate destruction of his people.

Pretty harsh.
-Craig

Tinuviel of Denton

04-26-2005, 06:20 AM

I just read the entire thread... And not one person mentioned Eol.

Am I the only person who looks at him with some sort of pity, at least, because he was at least as much marred by his anger at the Noldor for what they'd done as his own bents...

Also, his wife and son betrayed him. And stuff.

And this is a really horrible post that probably won't make anyone feel sorry for Eol, but I just felt I had to throw him out there.

(Oh, and I must concede with the majority that Turin is the most classically tragic figure.)

Eruanna

04-26-2005, 12:06 PM

To my mind Frodo, Gollum, Boromir, Finrod and others mentioned here elicit sympathy, there are elements of tragedy in their actions and eventual fates. However, after reading the thread I would still have to support Turin Turambar's claim to the title 'Most Tragic Figure'.
His country is destroyed, his people massacred, he kills his best friend, marries his own sister, she dies and he commits suicide...Everything he does seems to end in tragedy! Yes, he has his flaws, he is prideful and selfish; but his story is tragedy on a Shakespearean scale.

Formendacil

04-27-2005, 12:05 PM

There are many tragic figures in Tolkien....

One could go so far as to say that EVERYBODY is tragic. Think about it: you could probably make a case that every single character in Tolkien has a tragic life, or at least elements of one. Of course, that's rather the nature of a normal human life...

Still, you could say, with justification, that every major character in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion has a majorly tragic life, up to and including Manwe, Frodo, Aragorn, and Earendil. The only exceptions that I come up with are Varda and Gandalf.

However, I am forced to admit that I find the story of the family of Hurin to be the most tragic. Turin and Nienor have the most tragic story, in my opinion. Their entire story was written with the express purpose of tragedy, whereas with most of the others, tragedy is just sort of a thing that you seem to come by as a part of being in middle-earth.

Fallenstar

05-03-2005, 06:06 PM

We just did Aristotle's definition of a Western tragic hero in English class for another character, based on that definition I feel in Middle-Earth the most fitting tragic hero is Turin. First of all the hero must have a great status, and Turin is the son of Hurin. He also became the legendary Blacksword and always turns out to be a lord in some places. An tragic hero also needs to be "neither completely evil nor completely good", which Turin is again, an good example. He is definitely not evil, he tried to protect everybody from the Golden Worm and Morgorth's army. But judging from what he did to Beleg (even though it was an accident), Finduilas,etc. he is not competely good either, he is very easily thrown into rage and hurt people. A typical western tragic hero must be catapulted into a huge fall, which Turin experienced many, but the ultimate one is when he realized he married his sister of course. Aristotle also said that after the death of the tragic hero the readers feel relieved and even elevated. After Turin's death I certainly felt relieved of the heavy sorrow he bore with him and transmitted to the reader. So I think Turin is the best candidate for this position as "the most tragic hero in Tolkien's story by Aristotle's definition"

Felagund

05-04-2005, 04:28 PM

Fëanor. Obviously. He had the potential to be the mightiest of all the children of Eru in Arda, and to do the most good. Instead he doomed all of his people, and probably worst of all, his own children. Imagine if he had not allowed himself to be governed by pride, when the Silmarils were stolen? If he had listened to the cautious words of Finarfin? If he had been swayed by the Doom of Mandos? Indeed, all he did came to nought and ruin. Had he even refrained from burning the ships at Losgar, much sorrow could be avoided, and Melkor might not have been able to sow the seeds of dissension amongst the Noldor, and would ahve faced a unified Leaguer of that people. Indeed, it was his pride that led to his fall, for had he but used caution, or rather cared that Melkor had raised a great defense about Angband, he might not have fallen at the hands of Gothmog. Fëanor might well have had the power to fell Melkor, indeed breaking the doom Mandos had set before him, for he was the most powerful of all the peoples of Arda.

If that's not tragic, I don't know what is.

Felagund

05-04-2005, 06:18 PM

Has anyone realized that the WORLD i.e. Arda, is a tragic figure in Tolkien's works? At the end of every age, the world is that much more diminished. Everything following the raising of the first Pillars is frought with sorrow. Morgoth destroys the pillars. The world is diminished. The trees are killed. The world is diminished. The Silmarils are lost for good. The world is diminished. Numenor is destroyed. The world is diminished. Aman/Valinor is seperated from the circles of the world. The world is diminished. The One Ring is destroyed, and all the works that were sustained by any of the lesser rings wither and fade. The world is diminished. The last of the High Elves leave the Middle-Earth. The world is diminished.

The entire story of Arda, from start to finish is frought with tragedy. Or it's just plain sad. You decide.

Turin Turumbar

05-13-2005, 06:22 PM

Wow! What a difficult question! There are so many tragic figures in the books who can pick just one as the most tragic?!

-Gollum
-Feanor
-Turin
-as a matter of fact, Turin's whole family

my gosh this list could go on forever, but those were the most notable to me.

mormegil

05-13-2005, 11:33 PM

I would aver that Melkor is the most tragic figure in all of Tolkien's works. Think of the greatness he had the potential to be. Although one could assert that he did have a greatness to him it was turned to evil. He was the greatest of the Valar and yet became the most accursed. Had he but been sufficiently humble he would have been greater than Manwë himself. Yet, tragically the tale is told differently and all sorrow from Arda originated with his rebellion. Careful contemplation would lead one to discover that he is the most tragic figure and the catalyst for all other tragedies in Arda.

Turin Turumbar

05-14-2005, 10:10 AM

Oooo. Good one mormegil, I never thought of that.

Thinlómien

05-16-2005, 05:35 AM

You're definitely right, Estelyn! Women should be noticed better in this issue. Though Tolkien doesn't have a lot of important woman characters, they all seem to be tragic, especially those you mentioned.

I think also that Boromir is a very tragic character.

mormegil

05-16-2005, 07:23 AM

Formendacil

05-16-2005, 10:19 AM

If we are looking for tragic women, Morwen would definately be near the top of the list. Lost her husband, young daughter, older daughter, and her son could do not right. Hurin's whole family could be viewed as tragic.

And this after she has already had to flee her homeland of Dorthonion as a youth, leaving behind home, belongings, and close family: her father, her uncle, her great-uncle, in the war that resulted in her grandfather's death.

It's odd, but although I intellectually knew that before, I only just made the emotional connection of the effects of the Dagor Bragollach to the life of Morwen. Curious... No wonder Rian, gentle soul that she was, died after the Nirnaeth. They had seen a lot of pain already...

mormegil

05-16-2005, 10:36 AM

I probably should have taken more time on that post but I did it this morning just before I left to work, so time was limited. Thank you for adding to it Formendacil

Balecirithiel

05-19-2005, 10:10 AM

I belive that Boromir was the most tragic figure, his death was very heroic.

Lougwen

07-12-2005, 07:28 PM

Call me odd, and you may well laugh at me but here it goes. I know that every tale has its "bad character" but isn't Sauron a tragic character. He was possibly the mightiest of the Maiar and probably (if he hadn’t been seduced by Melkor) would have been loved and admired by Middle Earth in much the same way Gandalf was. To have basically his whole being to be consumed by power, wanting nothing but to dominate middle earth, maybe even Númemor itself, (always preferring to work behind the scenes and indeed when the dark lord does come face to face in battle he is always defeated) then to have that power, his driving force, taken from him during the Great Battle. Taken is the wrong word, he lost it in the worst sense of the word, because he literally couldn't find it no matter how much he called for the ring or how much the ring called and yearned for him. It didn’t matter how large his armies were or how powerful his hold on people was nor how fierce his reputation was, he couldn’t get back the thing he craved most. He spent thousands of years searching for the ring that would give him what he craved, only to have it destroyed almost within arms reach.

Just a thought however there are plenty of tradgic characters in Tolkiens works, some that I havn't even heard of yet I'm sad to say but I thought I'd try and think of something original.

Azaelia of Willowbottom

07-12-2005, 07:52 PM

Boromir is one of the most tragic characters. He was tormented by the Ring the whole time he was on the quest, and as a result, was never completely trusted by other Fellowship members. He really did only want the best for Gondor, but in the end, he wasn't even able to help.
Denethor is also tragic. He started out as a very intelligent, noble man... but his tragic flaw was his pride. Because of this pride, he neglected his younger son and in the end was driven insane by Sauron. Once I got over my horror at what he was doing, I felt bad for him. He could have been great, but he was twisted into evil.
Frodo's story is also tragic. He set out with no real intention of going all the way to Mordor, but he did, and it destroyed him to the point that he couldn't live on Middle-earth any more. I found it incredibly sad that he set out with the goal of saving the Shire, but when he returned, he found it completely changed and ruined. Even after driving out the evil, he couldn't stay. He was ill frequently, and probably in pain a good deal of the time, due to the destruction of the Ring. In the end, he couldn't even enjoy the return to the way of life that he had set out to save. He was a hero, but sometimes that can have a huge, even tragic price.

The Perky Ent

10-03-2005, 03:46 PM

Well, my opinion has changed very recently on this. Originally I would have said Boromir or Turin, but I just reread the Chapter 'Of the Ruin of Doriath', and I now believe that Hurin was the most tragic of Tolkien's characters. Because he defies Morgoth, Hurin is forced to endure perhaps the most deadly of tourtures: Emotional torture. Therefore with my eyes thou shalt see, and with my ears thou shalt hear; and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end

Melkor gives him essentially part of his own power, just so he can watch his family suffer. You'd think also that during Hurin's watching person he was made, to some extent, invounerable. After around twenty years of sitting chained in a chair, he'd probably develope some pretty bad bedsores! Although Turin's tale is incredibly sad, Hurin is constantly watching. He doesn't share the physical pain of Turin, but he indures a greater pain: Watching helplessly while his family dies. There is, however, a chance I could be exageration the emotional pain Hurin indures in his chair, as it is not said that Hurin asked ever of Morgoth either mercy or death, for himself or for any of his kin. Although, this could also imply that Hurin's strength of will was so great that he would indure years of tourture before succumbing to the will of Morgoth. Could this possibly make Hurin the strongest men ever? As if killing 70 trolls wasn't enough, Hurin has a strong enough will of mind to not beg for mercy at the hands of Melkor!

Well, with his children dead, Melkor releases him, most likly knowing that his tragic life is not yet over. Therefore they did not lay hands on Hurin, but let him walk at will in those lands; in which they were wise, for the remnant of his own people shunned him, because of his coming from Angband as one in league and honour with Morgoth. Thus his freedom did but increase the bitterness of Hurin By this point, you'd like Hurin would take his own life like Turin, but he still wanders for Morwen. After all the turmoil, he finds his wife, and spends just one day with her before she passes, and then comemorates her in the Stone of the Hapless. If matters couldn't get worse, Hurin was now the last of Dor-Lomin, and that thought itself must have been a heavy burden for him. Having little spirit left in him, he doesn't hesitate to kill Mîm, and take the Nauglamír.

It is after he takes the Nauglamír that the last part of Hurin's tragic life is fufiled: The ruin of Doriath. By giving Thingol the Nauglamír, he will bring about the king's death, the departure of melain, and the ruin of Doriath. Yet, although his action condemns Doriath, he says Receive now, lord, the Necklace of the Dwarves, as a gift from one who has nothing, and as a memorial of Hurin of Dor-lomin. For now my fate is fufilled, and the purpose of Morgoth achieved; but I am his thrall no longer
He expresses at this point that Morgoth is no longer his slave master, and he ends his life by jumping to his death in the sea. In my opinion, Hurin's sorrow is Turin + 100!

I don't really know how to end this, so I'll just end it. I believe Hurin is the most tragic of Tolkien's Characters!

Glirdan

10-03-2005, 04:00 PM

Wow!! Where to start. And such a good question to. There are so many. Fëanor, Turin and his family, Galadriel and way more than that. The most tragic in my opinion would be Galadriel. She has had to endure Middle-Earth for three ages, her own choice of course, yet she has not once complained about it. But you can tell that she greatly missed Valinor and the land of her birth, which was probably her biggest sorrow. She also had to put up with having Frodo in Lothlorien and to withstand the will of the One Ring which proved to be the greatest test she was put up against.

I don't need to explain why Fëanor and Turin and his family are tragic heroes. That's already pretty obvious.

Telchar

10-04-2005, 06:22 AM

Im not sure, but maybe you guys should try to define what tragic caracter means... is it A: The one who bore the bigger sorrow? or B: He whos life ends more tragicly, compared to he/she might otherwise have achived. I think the latter.

With that in mind I belive, like Mister Underhill on page one, that Caracters who fell from greatness are the most tragic - those who were ensnared by lust for power such as Saruman and Sauron, but also Ted Sandyman and Lotho. By imposed sorrow and dispair like Denethor. Or by fear such as the latter kings of Numenor (fear of death).

Among those I regard the fall of Saruman and his end, his hatred and malice was the saddest.

Gandalf in Fangorn
‘Then is not Saruman a traitor?’ said Gimli.
‘Indeed yes,’ said Gandalf. ‘Doubly. And is not that strange? Nothing that we have endured of late has seemed so grievous as the treason of Isengard.

Frodo in The Shire
He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.

Bêthberry

10-04-2005, 08:58 AM

Im not sure, but maybe you guys should try to define what tragic caracter means... is it A: The one who bore the bigger sorrow? or B: He whos life ends more tragicly, compared to he/she might otherwise have achived. I think the latter.

With that in mind I belive, like Mister Underhill on page one, that Caracters who fell from greatness are the most tragic - those who were ensnared by lust for power such as Saruman and Sauron, but also Ted Sandyman and Lotho. By imposed sorrow and dispair like Denethor. Or by fear such as the latter kings of Numenor (fear of death).

Among those I regard the fall of Saruman and his end, his hatred and malice was the saddest.

It seems to me that Saruman's fall never quite acquires the emotional feel of anguish and regret that the falls of Tolkien's other tragic heroes have, because we are so little shown Saruman in the process of that fall. That final scene in the The Shire, where Grima turns on him, is excrutiatingly well done, but I miss not seeing just how Saruman got there. We tend to be given simply the consequences. This has always, to me, been a missed opportunity for character development, so that Saruman never quite makes it to the pantheon of other tragic heroes.

Telchar

10-04-2005, 09:22 AM

It's just that the thread asks for most Tragic Figure not most tragic Hero :rolleyes:

Anguirel

10-04-2005, 09:28 AM

Essex

10-04-2005, 10:50 AM

To me, the reason why I put forward Frodo (as a few others have) as the most tragic figure is that he (in all his victories) has to put up with the Ring being taken from him forceably. We do not see his possible descent into madness, and this no doubt is an extreme view, but, like Gollum, he did not give the Ring up freely, and he still has to pay the consequences. Yes, he was bitten, stung and stabbed, and these wounds will take time to heal that he will hopefully achieve in the West, but what of his mental scars of losing the Ring?

This is why I see him as the most Tragic figure in Tolkien's work. To me, I need to feel some apathy towards a figure for them to be seen as tragic to me. this may be an incorrect interpretation of Tragedy, but this is what I feel nonetheless.

Bêthberry

10-04-2005, 11:09 AM

I believe Bethberry's point still applies. She's not questioning Saruman on the grounds that he is not heroic, (which is debatable-he could be seen as heroic in the Macbeth sense) but rather because several stages of the process of his fall from grace are not documented, a valid objection.

We do see the workings of his jealousy against Gandalf corrupting him, however. But the tantalising description of him seeking out too much knowledge-in other words, experiencing the fall of Faustus, of Icarus, or of Dante's Odysseus-is not covered in detail, and this is to my mind the more interesting aspect.

Quite so, yes. As readers, we really are not allowed to experience vicariously his fall, as we are asked, I think, to experience Frodo's anquish and even Gollem's terrible fate.

But does the concept of tragedy incorporate only a fall from greatness, or does it also involve the terrible way in which a character tries to avoid the fall or the fate, but whose very effort makes the fall inevitable? Is irony part of tragedy or only pity? Do the gods toy with tragic characters?

To me, I need to feel some apathy towards a figure for them to be seen as tragic to me. this may be an incorrect interpretation of Tragedy, but this is what I feel nonetheless.

Not to question your interpretation of tragedy, but I don't quite understand what you mean by 'apathy' here, Essex.

Gothmog

10-04-2005, 12:04 PM

Well, I've already spoken for Gwindor as the elf who had it hardest (here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=322941#post322941))
but when I read this thread I came to think about the sons of Feanor. At least Maedhros and Maglor. They lived their lives trapped by the oath of their father and I've always felt as if those two could have gone an other way if things would have been different.

All of Feanors sons was born in one of the most noble of families and they were all gifted in one way or another. But as the time passed, they were all involved in the downfall of the noldor. Still I don't think they were evil. Ok, it's hard to find any good deeds amongst Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir. But for example: Elrond and Elros ended up just fine after beeing taken care of by Maglor :)
For Maglor took pity upon Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and weary with the burden of the dreadful oath.

None of them was a saint, but I feal sorry for them. As always, it's a question of definition; what is a tragic figure?

And their death may also grant them a place in the tragic hall of fame. Finally able to put their hands on the Silmarils but as is said about Maedhros:
...and that his right thereto had become void, and the oathwas vain. One throwing himself in to a chasm of fire in "anguish and despair" and the other forever wandering the shores, "singing in pain and regret".

Is that to be called tragic?