Hobbits, Elves and Hershey Bars

[Ithaeliel]

I am not sure if this topic is relevant enough for the books, but it requires a bit of research, so I am posting it here for now. Earlier this evening, I was talking with a friend and fellow fantasy addict. We were discussing what all Middle-earthians had that we did not and vice versa. At some point my friend said to me, "They may have elves and hobbits, but they don't have chocolate." We debated this for some time, myself supporting the view that there was chocolate in Middle-earth, though I had serious unspoken doubts. I foolishly told my friend that I would get valid proof that Iluvatar made chocolate (the life support of most people on this planet!) or she would be able to mock me until I proved her wrong on something else.

Thus I ask you for aid: was there ever a hint that chocolate existed in Ea, or did those poor, unfortunate souls believe ale was the sweetest thing there was?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What do you think lembas was, if not chocolate?! smilies/wink.gif

[Manwe Sulimo]

Arda was originally filled with chocolate, but Melkor destroyed it when he cast down the Lanterns. The sea destroyed the chocolate trees and bushes (or whatever carries the bean). No one (save the Valar) ever had any chocolate, until they replanted it in the Fifth Age.

[Birdland]

Oh, the Elves had a substance that was ten times better than chocolate. You could eat all you wanted of it, and it didn't make you fat or cause your skin to break out. One bar of it was enough to last you six months, it didn't melt in your hand, and it never got that white stuff on it from sitting around on the shelf too long.

Unfortunately, the name and the source have been lost through the ages. All we have left that is remotely similar is chocolate, and it is really a poor substitute. smilies/wink.gif

[Imladrien]

To add alittle seriousness to the topic, isn't chocolate a New World food, meaning it came from the Western Hemisphere? Tolkien took out a few references to New World items like tomatoes, the word 'tobacco', and even though he left 'potato' in, he generally called them "taters". So, I kinda doubt that Middle Earth had chocolate, I'm really sorry to say.
--Imladrien

[Dain]

It's funny that lots of British staples (potatoes, tomatoes) are new world foods. Makes you wonder what really traditional British food would be...

Shame about the chocolate. And if they weren't smoking tobacco...

[Bill Ferny]

Things you definitely wouldn't find in a typical medieval setting:

chocolate coffee tea potatoes rice spaghetti (not even in Italy) noodles tomatoes squash baking powder gelatin baking soda

Middle-Earth is not a typical medieval setting.

Stuff found in Middle-Earth but not in a typical medieval setting: waistcoats golf hobbit holes orcs/orc-men/ents/elves/dwarves/hobbits paper silverware clear glass potatoes coffee tea limbas mithril tobacco (?) various beasts, including but not limited to giant talking spiders and pond monsters etc.

I don't see any reason why there wouldn't be chocolate in Middle-Earth, or for that matter, opium, if there is coffee and tobacco (if you believe pipe weed is tobacco, of course). After eating unsweetened cake, I'd rather like to believe that hobbits had chocolate and an abundance of sugar.

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Bill Ferny]

Dain,

Well, circa AD 1250: Thick soups, brewets and stews made from meat, vegetables and bread crumbs. Roasted meats of various sorts, including but not limited to beef, chicken, pork, wild fowl, duck, heron, swan, rabbit, mutton, and venison. Blankmanger of chicken and mortrews of fish were also very popular. It was made from pounding meat into a paste, mixing in other ingredients and serving it like a custard. The same basic principle was behind the quenelle that instead of being prepared like a custard was poached, coming out like a dumpling. Meat and fish in much the same manner was made into fritters, pasties and pies. Any dish, of course, was covered by a blanket of spices such as ginger, basil, sage, marjoram, rosemary, thyme, pepper, saffron, cloves, garlic, nutmeg, cannel, mace, cumin, cinnamon, honey and the expensive sugar that came in huge hard lumps called loaves. Mustard, while expensive, was used by the gallon. Of course, everything was accompanied by loaves of bread by the basket full (much to the miller's pleasure), and gallons of wine and home brew.

Of course, there's always my personal favorite, the entremets, consisting of whole roasted boar's heads, apple in mouth and all, and swans, herons and ducks roasted in their feathers, carefully propped up and possed with string and stick like Greek statues. These courses were usually accompanied by spiced wine and sweetened wafers.

Meals were lavish on rather common days in the households belonging to burghers of even modest means. Not to mention the voluptuous meals served by the likes of Thomas à Becket before he got religion which consisted of meat pies or custards that when cut would release a number of sparrows or doves, roasted boars and other game that would be presented at the table hanging from strings and dancing like puppets, and roasted cormorants dressed up with wafers and feathers to look like baby dragons.

All in all, hobbit meals, even with tea, coffee and tobacco, pale in comparison.

[Tar-Palantir]

Dear Mr. Ferny, would you kindly direct me to any and all golf refernces? Thank you.

Tar
smilies/smile.gif

[Dain]

Golf comes from the "concerning hobbits" part of FotR, when they describe the origins of the game when a hobbit lopped off an orcs head and it rolled down a rabbit-hole. Somebody with the book nearby can give a more complete reference.

Bill--cheers! smilies/smile.gif

[Eressië Ailin]

Oh I love the golf story!!!!!! Hobbits invented golf. I think one guy swung off an orc head, or something like that. I just can't remember where that's from. I think it's in the Fellowship...

Ooops!! Didn't see you post there, Dain. Sorry, I couldn't find the story. Maybe it's in the Hobbit?

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Eressië Ailin ]

[Elfstone]

My books are all lent out at the moment so I can't give you a direct quote, but I think it was Bullroarer who invented golf when he lopped the head off a goblin whose name was similar to the word golf and the head rolled down an animal hole.

[Veon]

This (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000023&p=3) was posted a while ago, about how golf was invented.

Anders

[Lyra Greenleaf]

it was gandalf, wasn't it, who invented golf by chopping off the head of the great/chief (what was he called?) goblin in- was it moria or not?- in the hobbit.

[Eressië Ailin]

No, it was a hobbit that invented golf. Click on the link, and look at the name of the cheif goblin. It also states in the passage that that was when golf was invented.

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Eressië Ailin ]

[Tar-Palantir]

WOW! Thank you everybody, and thanks for the link to the quote. Now that I read it it is all coming back to me.
and knocked their king Golfimbul's head clean off with a wooden club.
King Golf-imbul... smilies/biggrin.gif

Mr. Ferny, what a resource you are, I won't ask where or why you amassed this culinary history, but it is impressive. I'm getting hungry, gotta run, the search for roasted wild boar is on....

[Raefindel]

I tend to agree with Bill Ferny; If they had coffee, tea, potatoes and tomatoes, I can see no reason why they could not have had chocolate. They may not havve applied it to the same use as we do or called it by the same name, but even without direct literary evidence of it's existance in Middle-earth, it is not without probability.

Kinda sounds like a good detail for a fan-fic, joe-hobbit the inventer of hot chocolate and mocha? smilies/cool.gif

[Dain]

Funny, I thought it was in "Concerning Hobbits". Ooops. If only I had my books. Why I ever thought I could leave them on the other side of the ocean...

[Diamond18]

A hobbit named Choco, perhaps? smilies/biggrin.gif The only problem with him was that he was so busy innovating new foods, he was always late.

*groan*

[Ithaeliel]

Diamond, that was cute. smilies/biggrin.gif

So maybe there was chocolate? If so, it might have been invented by the elves, since they came up with a lot of other sweet things... miruvor, jewels, lembas... I could go on and on.

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Ithaeliel ]

[Arvedui III]

I think every fantasy story should have chocolate. I like to think that hobbits invented it and it was just really rare or something. Maybe lembas is along the lines of chocolate. Dunno though.

[Birdland]

Chocolate? Hobbits? That means we could have...chocolate hobbits!

Mmmmmmm, chocolate hobbits...I'd eat the feet first.

[Arvedui III]

Someone should make choclate hobbits and sell them to hungry barrow-downers. They would make a fortune. smilies/smile.gif

[Lobelia]

"And if they weren't smoking tobacco..."

Somewhere in there (I think in "Concerning Hobbits") is a line that says the hobbits were experimenting with just about everything before they settled on pipeweed.
No wonder this novel was so popular in the 60s! (g)

[Angry Hill Troll]

Of course, if one takes the opposite view that chocolate was not native to M-E but only to Valinor (and to the lands to the West on the non-straight path after the Alkallabeth, it provides some interesting possibilities...

What reward awaited Frodo, Bilbo, etc. when they got to the Undying Lands? We know they didn't become immortal. But perhaps Frodo would have forgotten about the pain in his shoulder, hand, etc. if had a lifetime supply of chocolate!

The elves from Tol Eressëa visited Numenor until Sauron appeared on the scene. The faithful were really bummed when the elves stopped visiting. Eventually Ar-Pharazon decided to attack Valinor. Both of these things are somewhat consistent with the way people behave when their supply of chocolate is cut off...

Don't take the above too seriously! smilies/wink.gif

[Bill Ferny]

Huh? Choco who was always late?…
Hmm… Choco’s late?…
OH! I GET IT! smilies/biggrin.gif

I think you are on to something there, Anger. "Upset about not being immortal? Naw... we just want our chocolate!"

I think that Estelyn has a pretty good theory, but I always thought that lembas was pop-tarts, but instead of foil, it was wrapped in leaves (once again the plant of origin becomes a very curious question).

Who would have thought that Ithaeliel’s humble question would inspire such creativity? smilies/smile.gif I’m going to keep my eye on the fanfic page.

Mr. Ferny…I won't ask where or why you amassed this culinary history…

Just imagine what I subject my wife to on a daily basis.

Oh, I forgot... a few more things you would find in Middle-Earth but not in a typical medieval setting: a button hole a cork a fork

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Samwise]

For some wierd reason chocolate being brought over by the Spaniards comes to mind...if anyone can tell me if I'm wrong/right, post away! smilies/biggrin.gif

"Yo quiero chocolate!"
And on the third day, God created chocolate. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Samwise]

Choco’s late...
"Choco, late again?"
*Smacks head* Oh, yeah! Now I get it!! smilies/tongue.gif

[Ithaeliel]

Samwise: Chocolate and the cocoa plant was actually native to South America, and it was introduced to the Conquistadors by the Aztecs or the Incas.
The sad thing is, I know more history about my own world than I do about Middle-earth! What kind of a fan am I? smilies/wink.gif

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Ithaeliel ]

[Samwise]

To add alittle seriousness to the topic, isn't chocolate a New World food
Eh...wasn't it first made into cocoa/bars in Europe, though? And isn't ME based on Europe in some loooooong ago time? I'm probably wrong, 'cause on these things I usually am, but I like to think of my Sam having cocoa plants in the garden. smilies/biggrin.gif

[Samwise]

Ah, thank you for the clear-up Ithaeliel. (History was never my subject, regardless whose country it was...) smilies/tongue.gif

[Diamond18]

Thank you, Ithaeliel, Bill and Samwise for laughing at my dreadful little pun. I'm flattered. smilies/biggrin.gif

Now, realistically, it's more likely Chocolate in Middle-earth would have been invented by Sauron. I mean, how do you think he got all those people to unite under his banner? What other reason besides chocolate would cause them to flock to Mordor of all places?

The One Ring: truly a mere trifle. A chocolate trifle, perhaps?

[Beren87]

Just because I thought it was interesting, I found a Gandalf shaped chocolate bar today and bought it. Curiously enough it had nuts in it, while the Frodo shaped one didn't.

[ February 24, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

[Ithaeliel]

They're implying something there, Beren, you know it... smilies/wink.gif

[Sleeping Beauty]

Thanks Diamond that was a good laugh. The thought that the one ring was really made out of chocolate really amused me. So I guess the gold on the outside was just a foil wanting to be unwrapped.

Hmm...the only curious thing is what type of chocolate was inside? Godiva maybe? smilies/biggrin.gif

[Carorëiel]

As my classes don't start today until noon, I hauled out my Ext DVDs to see what sort of light Jackson and company can shed on the question.

In Concerning Hobbits on the extended DVD of FotR, the hobbit gentleman who is courting a hobbit lady snatches a cupcake from a passing tray. Some of those cupcakes (including the one he snags) look to have chocolate icing on them. smilies/cool.gif

So, I'd say PJ etc either thought there would be chocolate in Middle Earth--or didn't think about it at all. smilies/wink.gif

[Gorwingel]

In Concerning Hobbits on the extended DVD of FotR, the hobbit gentleman who is courting a hobbit lady snatches a cupcake from a passing tray.

Yeah, I noticed that, and I was going to mention that. But they probably just put those chocolate frosted cupcakes in because it just fits.

But, yes, I do think that Middle Earth should have chocolate. Because it would be a very sad place if they did not. Now up above somebody talked about them having waistcoats, and things from the 12th to about the 16th/early 17th centuries. By the 16th century Europe most definitely had chocolate. So if Middle Earth had a mix of things from those different centuries, they probably, most likely had it. Maybe it came from a southern section of ME that was never talked about smilies/rolleyes.gif

Lembas, the ME version of Pop Tarts?
I never thought of that smilies/smile.gif

[doug*platypus]

It's funny that lots of British staples (potatoes, tomatoes) are new world foods. Dain, I'm ready to agree that British staples are among the finest in the world. No office or stationery shop should be without them. But I really don't think they're good enough to eat, not even in the U.S.

[Firefoot]

I certainly couldn't live without chocolate. smilies/biggrin.gif While I know of no evidence that there is, I would like to believe that there is chocolate in ME. If there wasn't - those poor, deprived souls of ME just don't know what they're missing. And if it was just in Valinor, like a reward, why would the Noldor have left in the first place? Or couldn't they have brought some with? smilies/wink.gif

[Samwise]

Dain, I'm ready to agree that British staples are among the finest in the world. No office or stationery shop should be without them. But I really don't think they're good enough to eat, not even in the U.S.
*Smacks head* Oh, dear.. smilies/redface.gif smilies/smile.gif smilies/tongue.gif

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

what type of chocolate was inside? Godiva maybe?


*drools*

Mmm... Godiva...

My art teacher gets migraines from chocolate, cheese, and wine. I asked her what the point of living was if she can eat chocolate... She said it's not so bad... but considering my after-school snack was a chocolate donut, hot chocolate, and a hershey bar... I think I'd have trouble giving it up completely.

Makes me wonder if Middle Earth had peanut butter...

Fea

[Samwise]

Mm...you almost can't have chocolate w/o peanut butter.... smilies/wink.gif smilies/tongue.gif

Being a fan of the Middle-Earth Gardener, and seeing as how both chocolate and peanuts come from plants, why not? smilies/wink.gif

[Ainaserkewen]

Ithaeliel is right. There couldn't have been chocolate in Middle-Earth at that "time" because it came from south America. I don't know the story exactly, but I hear that inside a coco pod(including the beans and such) the beans are covered in a sticky sweet syrup. The story I heard said something about the natives only eating the sweet sticky stuff cause it was tasty, and leaving the coco beans for medicine or something. I hope you all know that coco beans by themselves taste terrible. So I guess one day, a native was collecting coco pods when one was crushed(don't ask how, I don't know) and the beans were mixed with the syrup. And that's how the first chocolate was invented, or so I hear. I don't think that chocolate would have been introduced to Europe or any of the eastern Hemisphere until the Spanish landed in South America in the 1400's. Sorry everybody who would have loved there to be chocolate in ME, you'll just have to stick to bacon. Mmmmm, bacon.

[The Saucepan Man]

There couldn't have been chocolate in Middle-Earth at that "time" because it came from south America.

It's been said before on this thread, but potatoes and tobacco (ie pipeweed) came from the Americas too (darn you Americans for my addiction smilies/wink.gif ). Given that it is a fantasy world, I see no reason why they should not also have had chocolate (or coco beans at least).

[Frodo Baggins]

There is Carob.

Carob is a plant that grows in the Mediterranian area which produces little brown beans. Some types of Chocolate are made from Carob instead of Cocoa beans. The climate in places like Ithilien was probably warm enough to grow things like coffee, oranges, and carob.

[Lalaith]

dish, of course, was covered by a blanket of spices
Sorry to drag things up in a spirit of pedantry, but I have to quibble with this claim in an otherwise most learned and informative post. According to some wise food historians I recently had the honour of hobnobbing with, the idea that mediaeval food was heavily spiced is actually erroneous. Spices were extremely expensive and thus used with delicacy and caution.

And yes, if M-E had pipeweed and taters, I see no issue with chocolate. They certainly had stuff to sweeten it with - remember that honeycomb at Tom Bombadil's, and the honeycakes of the Beornings...

[Samwise]

Frodo Baggins
Ghost Prince of Cardolan

Mr. Frodo??? smilies/eek.gif smilies/eek.gif

I have no issue with chocolate, either. It was a plant, and there were certainly plants in ME, or they wouldn't have needed Gardeners! smilies/wink.gif