Sauron's loyalty after the First Age

[Zigûr]

Hello, having introduced myself in the Newcomers thread I thought I might bring up an issue which I have been musing upon for a while. The gist of it is this: what are your opinions on Sauron's loyalty after the First Age? Was he still devoted to Morgoth or was he pursuing his own agenda?

The reason I ask is that I see a lot of threads on forums around the internet with notions like "why Sauron stayed loyal after Morgoth's defeat", "would he try to bring Morgoth back somehow" and the like, but I felt that a lot of these rely on the assumption that Sauron particularly cared that his former master was gone. The confusion seems to primarily lie with Sauron's establishment of the Melkor-worshipping religion in Númenor.
I personally have always viewed Sauron as a complete opportunist. He was, according to Morgoth's Ring, seduced to Morgoth's side because of Morgoth's apparent efficiency and decisiveness (compared to the Valar). By the Second Age, in Númenor, this ruthless pragmatism of Sauron's which Morgoth exploited had effectively gone full circle; it would seem to me that his establishment of Melkor-worship derived not from any genuine sense of reverence for his exiled master but purely out of convenience: "Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest." (Morgoth's Ring again)

What do you think? While I do believe that Sauron's pursuit of his particular agenda caused him to ultimately, subconsciously, propagate the cause of the ongoing malice of Morgoth imbued as it was in the very substance of Middle-earth itself, I believe this was in the purely conceptual, metaphysical sense of "Morgoth" as it had come to exist as the general presence of evil potency in Arda, not in the fulfilment of the deliberate will of Melkor-Morgoth in actuality as a person or individual. Nor do I believe that any of his schemes, including the destruction of Númenor, the forging of the Rings or any of his other policies were enacted out of any deliberate continued loyalty on Sauron's part to Morgoth the person, who was exiled seemingly permanently from Arda and whose absence elevated Sauron from second-in-command to potentially complete primary lordship. How do you view the matter?

[Boromir88]

Hello Zigur, welcome to the Barrow-downs. :D A highly interesting thread topic, and much of what you say is what I think as well.

"Opportunist" is a good word to use for Sauron. I can't track down the precsie reference at the moment, but Sauron first was drawn to Melkor's service because of Melkor's power and the expediency he was able to enact his plans. Morgoth seemed the "I want this now" Dark-Lord, where Sauron was more calculated and thoughtful:

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way, Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things.~HoME X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed

Sauron, no doubt, joined Melkor's service because they essentially had the same designs. But it was an opportunistic move, much like Saruman's "we can join with that Power (Sauron)" speech to Gandalf was Saruman being an opportunist. Saruman expresses the same goals as Sauron, but feels to achieve them, the easiest way is to get on Sauron's good side, and then backstab him when the chance presented itself. I'm not saying Sauron ever wanted to backstab Morgoth, but he joined Morgoth to further his own ambitions.

Eventually, Morgoth starts slipping into nihilism, where all he cares about is complete and utter destruction. Morgoth, being unable to control becomes like an 8-yo having a temper tantrum. "Fine, if I can't have it my way, I'm just going to trash the place." He recklessly throws in armies and spends resources, because all he wants total destruction. On the other hand, Sauron never falls to nihilism:

"He [Sauron] still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)"~ibid

And take care of two points with one quote, since I also found the reference to why Sauron first joined Morgoth. Anyway, Sauron loved order and co-ordination. His plans were to dominate and control free will. He wanted slavery and obediance to his will. Morgoth wanted to burn the world. It's hard to rule over others if you're destroying/killing everything. ;)

As far as the Melkor-religion he was creating in Numenor. Again, this is, I feel, Sauron just being an opportunist:

Sauron was not a ’sincere’ atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda)..... To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest.~ibid

Sauron never denies the existance of the "Gods" and from the sound of it, never aligned to the belief of Morgoth idolatry. He ceases to fear they will step in and muck up his plans, as they had done with Morgoths, but he always acknowledged their existance. Sauron's Melkor-religion of Numenor, was Sauron wisely recognizing it strengthened his own standing in Numenor, not that he actually believed it:

When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age he claimed to be Morgoth returned.~Letter 183

Technically speaking, he is following along with Morgoth's work, because Morgoth was the creator of all this discord. However, Sauron was full of pride, and I think we can reasonably say, in Sauron's mind (which is what really matters here), he's not thinking about Morgoth. He's thinking about his own abitions, and setting himself as the "Lord" over Middle-earth.

[Galadriel55]

I second Boro, this is a very interesting topic.

I agree with what has been said, and "opportunist" seems quite a fitting word to describe Sauron.

It's really not that difficult a choice for him: either you work hard to do the near-impossible of bringing your old master back, or you become the big bad bully yourself. Knowing Sauron's lust for power, his choice is clear. I doubt he ever felt any devotion to Morgoth beyond the basic "while he's there he gives me power" feeling. So I doubt Sauron had any great loyalty in the first place.

I like the sound of the idea that Sauron's Morgoth cult is really subconsciously worshiping "Morgoth's Ring", not the individual himself.

[Mumriken]

Read the wikipedia article on Sauron and you would know his loyalty. It's quite obvious actually, obviously he is loyal to Melkor.

[Zigûr]

Wikipedia's articles on Sauron and Morgoth actually contributed to my motivation towards contemplating this topic. Once upon a time (before I edited it actually) the article on Morgoth claimed that Sauron stayed loyal to Morgoth after the First Age but gave no evidence from Professor Tolkien's own writing to support this assertion. Indeed almost all of the evidence which I mentioned from "Myths Transformed" along with the note from Letter 183, both of which were kindly provided in detail by Boromir88, would suggest to me that after the War of Wrath Sauron was pursuing his own agenda. Morgoth had become, more or less, irrelevant beyond being a phantom from Sauron's personal history he could use to corrupt the Númenoreans and other Men he duped into perceiving him as a divinity.
While I believe that Sauron was indeed loyal to Morgoth in the First Age, and was motivated to this allegiance initially due to admiration for Morgoth's ambition and wilfulness and later because being Morgoth's second-in-command was a position of enormous authority he could never have achieved on his own given the circumstances of the First Age, I don't believe that loyalty persisted after Morgoth's exile. This quote from Morgoth's Ring seems pertinent:

While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice.

I am noting here words and phrases including "while Morgoth still stood" and "whom in the beginning he had adored". The suggestion seems very much to me to be that Sauron's admiration for Morgoth had gradually eroded, probably due to Morgoth's increasing nihilism, and that after Morgoth's defeat Sauron was seeking his own supremacy.
I think by and large the confusion that his loyalty was more enduring seems to derive from a misinterpretation of the events of the Akallabêth. As for this "bringing Morgoth back" idea, I'm pretty sure that's just a silly notion I read somewhere with no basis whatsoever in the Professor's writing, and possibly derives from a desire some might have for Tolkien's world to be more like the heavily serialised Fantasy sagas of more modern times (the plot of A Darkness at Sethanon is something like that I believe).

[Mumriken]

You know what staying loyal means right? You better edit that wikipedia article again, because you are clearly wrong.

[Zigûr]

By "did Sauron stay loyal" what I am asking is this: after the First Age and Morgoth's banishment into the Void, did Sauron remain devoted to Morgoth? Did he actively, intentionally continue to pursue Morgoth's cause? Did he desire to further Morgoth's plans for Morgoth's sake rather than his own? All evidence I can find (and which has been brought up in this thread) suggests that the answer is no. With Morgoth out of the picture he was furthering his own goals, pursuing his own agenda, and the only allegiance he owed was to himself. He was now his own master, not the obedient servant he had been in the First Age, and all the times he exploited the memory of Morgoth and the products of his reign (Orcs and the like) were for the sake of his own power and dominion, not about trying to bring Morgoth's thwarted schemes to fruition.
If there is evidence to the contrary I would of course be very interested to read it!

[Mumriken]

Did he actively, intentionally continue to pursue Morgoth's cause? Did he desire to further Morgoth's plans for Morgoth's sake rather than his own?
Morgoth's beyond any help, even if there was a point in pursuing "Morgoth's cause" whatever you mean by that....actually what do you mean by saying that. I think Sauron did a pretty good job in messing with the children of illuvatar. He did it because it's in his nature to do it, did he do it for morgoth? That is like saying did Gandalf show fireworks to little hobbit children because of Manwe wanting him to do so. Sauron did what he did because that is who he is. Being loyal means that he is on Morgoth's side. If he wouldn't be loyal he would go back to valinor and be judged and maybe be turned back into a good guy again. He never did therefore he is loyal. I don't get this "morgoth's sake". A soldier in a army doesn't fight because the general tells him to do so, he fights because he wants to.
With Morgoth out of the picture he was furthering his own goals, pursuing his own agenda, and the only allegiance he owed was to himself. He was now his own master, not the obedient servant he had been in the First Age, and all the times he exploited the memory of Morgoth and the products of his reign (Orcs and the like) were for the sake of his own power and dominion, not about trying to bring Morgoth's thwarted schemes to fruition.
If there is evidence to the contrary I would of course be very interested to read it!
The evidence to the contrary is that Sauron and Morgoth were very much alike in thought. Morgoth was thrown out of Arda chained unable to do anything. Sauron could do nothing but to keep doing what he did before, what HE IS. He could do nothing but do it for his own sake. Morgoth was out of the picture, if Morgoth would be in the world Sauron would join him again as a servant WHO LOVES TO SERVE because his master's goals are his own.

EDIT:So change the wikipedia article ;)

[Zigûr]

Being loyal means that he is on Morgoth's side. If he wouldn't be loyal he would go back to valinor and be judged and maybe be turned back into a good guy again. He never did therefore he is loyal.
I don't think the only options for Sauron were either loyalty to Morgoth or loyalty to the Valar/Eru - it may have been that way in the First Age, but afterwards Sauron took a third option: loyalty to himself.

if Morgoth would be in the world Sauron would join him again as a servant WHO LOVES TO SERVE because his master's goals are his own.
I don't think this is supported by Professor Tolkien's own writing on the subject. As has been quoted earlier in the thread, Sauron's goals and Morgoth's goals differed. Morgoth was (certainly by the end of the First Age) a nihilist whose ultimate goal was to destroy the world. Sauron didn't want to destroy it, he wanted to rule it and order it for his own satisfaction. Morgoth's defeat actually made Sauron's desire for rule and order (which he'd had from the start, but which Morgoth only shared until his descent into nihilism) more achievable than it was when Morgoth was around.
While I agree that because Morgoth was the origin of evil in the world, by being evil Sauron was continuing what Morgoth started, it seems to me that the only way that constitutes loyalty is in an unintentional and metaphysical way. The idea I'm arguing against is that he was actively still devoted to Morgoth, which is to say that he was doing what he did to Morgoth's glory or because he believed Morgoth's cause was right. As we've seen, Morgoth's cause and Sauron's greatly differed in the end, so surely as far as Sauron was concerned his activities in the Second and Third Ages were meant to fulfil his own ambitions.
Sauron could do nothing but to keep doing what he did before, what HE IS
What he was doing before, which is to say in the First Age, was assisting in Morgoth's plans of destruction. In the Second and Third Ages he was pursuing his own goal of domination. Surely these are two different things.
A soldier in a army doesn't fight because the general tells him to do so, he fights because he wants to.
I think that's far from true in many circumstances.

[Mumriken]

Sauron took a third option: loyalty to himself.
Of course he is loyal to himself, as I said it seems you don't understand what loyalty means.
Sauron's goals and Morgoth's goals differed. Morgoth was (certainly by the end of the First Age) a nihilist whose ultimate goal was to destroy the world.
Oh really, yet he put the silmarils in a iron crown and declared himself ruler of Arda. He didn't want to destroy the world, he wanted to be recognized as the king of Arda and bend all the children of illuvatar to his will. Did he not corrupt elves into orcs and many maias including Mairon to serve him? Sauron or Mairon is Morgoth's shadow...
Morgoth's defeat actually made Sauron's desire for rule and order (which he'd had from the start, but which Morgoth only shared until his descent into nihilism) more achievable than it was when Morgoth was around.
When did Morgoth decend into nihilism?
The idea I'm arguing against is that he was actively still devoted to Morgoth, which is to say that he was doing what he did to Morgoth's glory or because he believed Morgoth's cause was right. As we've seen, Morgoth's cause and Sauron's greatly differed in the end, so surely as far as Sauron was concerned his activities in the Second and Third Ages were meant to fulfil his own ambitions.
His own ambitions...because Morgoth was not in the freckin world...! What it all boils down to is that you don't understand what being loyal means. One can still be loyal by being your own master. When Morgoth was thrown out into the world Sauron had two options:

1. Go back to valinor and ask for pardon or judgement.
2. Stay in middle earth and keep bothering people.

Remember even when Morgoth was loose in middle earth and tormented the children the valas did nothing. They do not directly intervene, therefore by staying in middle earth Sauron stayed loyal to Morgoth. Sure one could say he became his own master, but that is ONLY because Morgoth was not in the freckin world. That is like saying if a general is killed in battle the soldier all of a sudden isn't loyal to the dead general because he now has to order himself around and keep fighting the enemy.

So Sauron was loyal to Morgoth til the very end.

[Galadriel55]

Read the wikipedia article on Sauron and you would know his loyalty. It's quite obvious actually, obviously he is loyal to Melkor.

Go not to wikipedia articles for they are of dubious sources. Go instead to Tolkien's own words and it's quite obvious actually, obviously Sauron was not loyal.

You know what staying loyal means right? You better edit that wikipedia article again, because you are clearly wrong.

a) Is wikipedia the best source you can offer? b) Why is he clearly wrong? Only because you're so obviously right?


If it is all so obvious, Mumriken, why don't you see The Sil for the interesting info that immediately after the War of Wrath Sauron truly repented of his evil deeds and service to Melkor, and he genuinely begged for his own pardon. Only after a while did he return back to his old ways.

Even you would not call that "staying loyal".


I'm afraid it is you who does not understand what loyalty means. If you ask me Sauron was never loyal in the first place. It's not in his nature to serve anyone but himself. He followed Morgoth because this service allowed him to rise and to have quite a large chunk of power. He did not actively, physically betray Morgoth, but he would not have died for Morgoth's sake either - which true and strong loyalty does mean.

In the later Ages, did Sauron come as Morgoth's servant? No! He named himself Lord in his own right and whatever. After Morgoth could not give Sauron power, Sauron didn't give two cents for what happened to him - and it's not because cents were not created yet.

So quit the wikipedia campaign.

[Mumriken]

Go not to wikipedia articles for they are of dubious sources. Go instead to Tolkien's own words and it's quite obvious actually, obviously Sauron was not loyal.
Orly...
a) Is wikipedia the best source you can offer? b) Why is he clearly wrong? Only because you're so obviously right?
a)No, I just put it up to point out that he could probably read up on sauron and the answer would be obvious to him.
b)Already told him why he is clearly wrong, you want me to repeat myself to you.
If it is all so obvious, Mumriken, why don't you see The Sil for the interesting info that immediately after the War of Wrath Sauron truly repented of his evil deeds and service to Melkor, and he genuinely begged for his own pardon. Only after a while did he return back to his old ways.
Actually did he really, I don't have the entire silmarillion in my head but wasn't he afraid of returning or he felt humiliated and chose not to return but instead hid himself? I don't remember I have only listened to it once. Now even if he did ask for pardon which I don't think he did...well even if he did that would still not mean he abandoned Morgoth SINCE he returned to his evil ways eventually.
If you ask me Sauron was never loyal in the first place. It's not in his nature to serve anyone but himself.
Yet he went from being a good guy serving under Aule...to serve under Morgoth until Morgoth was captured and thrown into the void. That is quite a lot of serving if you ask me...and he never did turn his back to morgoth's evil ways. His own master, what a joke actually...it's so stupid I'm not sure why it's even being discussed. Not loyal to the devil himself, to the being who made him into what he is? So I guess the balrog's were their own masters as well after Morgoth left. Guess they weren't loyal to him anymore and instead enjoyed tormenting dwarves for personal pleasure. Not being loyal to Morgoth is like not being loyal to evil as it exists in the entire mythology. There are two sides in this story, it's clear which side Sauron is on. That he loves what he does doesn't mean he isn't loyal to the devil.
If you ask me Sauron was never loyal in the first place.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL, yeah right...then why did he join melkor in the first place. The only being he wasn't loyal to was Aule, who he left for morgoth.
In the later Ages, did Sauron come as Morgoth's servant? No!
Because morgoth was chained outside the ****in world......
After Morgoth could not give Sauron power, Sauron didn't give two cents for what happened to him - and it's not because cents were not created yet.
He didn't care? Oh I think he did...the war of wrath takes place, sauron has hid in some deep cavern...(lalalalalal I don't care...lalalalallala....few weeks later he goes out into the sun ohh what a nice day :)...hmm finally now I can be my own master...)

AS IF...as I said not being loyal to Morgoth is like being good...it is that black and white. Because morgoth is evil personified, everything bad and evil in the world comes from him alone. Sauron was loyal to Morgoth, he had no other choice but to act on his own in the 2nd and 3rd ages since morgoth was not in the world. Like I don't get how you can go from....

War of Wrath (Morgoth Sauron defeated)
Morgoth thrown out of the world and chained
Sauron loose
Messes around with the children

NOT LOYAL??? Your logic is clearly flawed...

[Zigûr]

why don't you see The Sil for the interesting info that immediately after the War of Wrath Sauron truly repented of his evil deeds and service to Melkor, and he genuinely begged for his own pardon. Only after a while did he return back to his old ways.
You have rather beaten me to the punch there; here's the Professor's remark on the subject from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":
When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë, the herald of Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwë. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great.
What we can see from this is that Sauron's refusal to return to Valinor was not because he wanted to "Stay in middle earth and keep bothering people" but because he was too used to being second banana of a powerful realm to go from a position of high status to what would probably have been the absolute lowest rung on the ladder in Valinor.
Sauron did not go down the path of evil for the sake of evil, but out of a love of order (quoted earlier) which was repeatedly perverted to a lust for power. Professor Tolkien also makes this comment in the letter which is included in the Preface to the Second Edition of The Silmarillion:
Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for complete power
So ultimately he had a second fall: repenting of evil he fell back into evil but in the pursuit of a notionally 'noble' cause: the ordering of Middle-earth. It was not an immediate continuation of his activities as Morgoth's lieutenant.
not being loyal to Morgoth is like being good...it is that black and white. Because morgoth is evil personified, everything bad and evil in the world comes from him alone
This is not completely true. There is a difference between being evil, which indeed derives from Morgoth, and pursuing the same goals as Morgoth, which Sauron patently did not do, given that he was intent on rebuilding and ordering Middle-earth. This contrasts greatly with Morgoth's nihilistic tendencies at the end of the First Age, the quotes for which I now realise haven't been included in this thread so far but which I present (abridged) for the sake of completeness, with my apologies for asserting them earlier. They derive, again, from Morgoth's Ring.
His sole ultimate object was their destruction... This was sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own ‘creatures’, such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men... even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was leveled again into a formless chaos.
And lastly, and most importantly:
Morgoth had no ‘plan’: unless destruction and reduction to nil of a world in which he had only a share can be called a ‘plan’.
In contrast to this, the Professor notes:
Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began.
I think we can perceive from this that certainly by the end of the First Age those qualities of Morgoth's which had first bought Sauron's loyalty had long degenerated. This quote about Sauron from the same text is also worth consideration:
He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä
So it would seem that Sauron considered Morgoth a failure; he had failed in the purpose which had first attracted Sauron - the masterful ordering of the world. Sauron was now going to fulfil the task which Morgoth had lacked the strength of character to accomplish. Did he perhaps even consider himself to be better, in that sense, than Morgoth? Possibly another question worth contemplating.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

how do the Forces of Evil in Arda (like 'Mairon', like Melkor) accomplish their goals to overthrow the One via language and the categorizing meanings of linguistic Thought categories, would you say? How are both these wayward entities doing so in the First, Second, Third, or any Age, without their specific physical presences?

do you think the hierarchy of authority in the Spiritual world reflects also a hierarchy of knowledge production? Maybe that is why Sauron will service Melkor at the End (even though we all know they lose), because none of Sauron's efforts will be able to best Melkor (isn't that precisely why the Valar are made different in innate power from Maiar?

aren't both of them serving Eru, whatever they might choose to do?

[Zigûr]

aren't both of them serving Eru, whatever they might choose to do?
An excellent point, and one I'd neglected. To quote Eru in the Ainulindalë:
And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.
In regards to language, I thought I might offer this point in Appendix F:
It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose.
It could be in this case that the desire for a single unified language for all his subjects derived from Sauron's desire for order and efficiency; it would certainly have aided communication. We can imagine, perhaps, that like Orwell's Newspeak its vocabulary might have limited the capacity for "disordered", which is to say rebellious, thinking among Sauron's slaves.
As for Morgoth, I know Professor Tolkien mused upon but ultimately rejected the idea of "Melkian" languages from which the Black Speech and other dark tongues derived, but what strikes me most about Morgoth is how often he is described as a liar, and a liar to himself as well as to others. From Valaquenta:
Understanding he turned to subtlety in perverting to his own will all that he would use, until he became a liar without shame.
In terms of knowledge production it's worth noting that it was a two-person job for the dark powers: Sauron "was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice."
Just a few ideas that might be relevant.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

ah yes! and your deployment of the rich, evocative connotations of color-code demonstrates very plainly to this audience that you understood my point about language and speech acts, now doesn't it? ;)


how, then, are we then transmuting the meanings of Darkness or Blackness when we understand their use by the Vala Irmo? :D

[Belegorn]

I agree with Mumriken. Though he may have confused some parts of the legends, I think Sauron was ever faithful to Morgoth, "and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." [Sil, p. 26] Like Sauron, Morgoth "lay upon his face before theon feet Manwe and sued for pardon" [Sil, p. 52] Of course Morgoth had the more lofty goal of "dominion over Arda" and therefore "let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the earth" and therefore he, "'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently" as he "attempted to identify himself" with Arda [Sil, p. 399]. This made the Valar moving against him hard due to his connection with Arda. Sauron, however, "was not obliged to spend so much of himself" and he "spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate." [MR, pp. 394-395] Obviously Morgoth hated anything not of his thought, and I do not think Sauron knew the mind of Morgoth and thus his nihilistic bent.

Not even one of the Valar, could read the mind of other 'equal beings':... Melkor remained in a fixed and powerful will to withhold his mind.

However, to me Sauron's greatest loyalty to Morgoth was that he was a shadow of the greater power, Melkor on a smaller scale, thus Morgoth's Ring [Arda] and Sauron's Ring [of power].

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

I agree with Mumriken. Though he may have confused some parts of the legends, I think Sauron was ever faithful to Morgoth, "and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void." [Sil, p. 26] Like Sauron, Morgoth "lay upon his face before theon feet Manwe and sued for pardon" [Sil, p. 52] Of course Morgoth had the more lofty goal of "dominion over Arda" and therefore "let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the earth" and therefore he, "'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently" as he "attempted to identify himself" with Arda [Sil, p. 399]. This made the Valar moving against him hard due to his connection with Arda. Sauron, however, "was not obliged to spend so much of himself" and he "spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate." [MR, pp. 394-395] Obviously Morgoth hated anything not of his thought, and I do not think Sauron knew the mind of Morgoth and thus his nihilistic bent.



However, to me Sauron's greatest loyalty to Morgoth was that he was a shadow of the greater power, Melkor on a smaller scale, thus Morgoth's Ring [Arda] and Sauron's Ring [of power].


agreed! :D the question of the medieval principle of loyalty as a ground principle of the monarchical, feudal state, for which the whole of Arda is made available, is altogether a different question than the discourse of naming by which we know these Bodiless, Timeless entities who fell into Shadow. the one entity known to the Incarnates as Sauron seems to prefer the tactic of goeteia in his working out of the strategy of total control over the Little Kingdom; the greater entity known as Melkor (who is the fount of Theological Evil in this legendarium) prefers the tactic of magia (and thus the suffusion of the physical atoms of Arda with his infernal essence).....



....however, let us not forget that the names by which these Bodiless entities are known to us in the official, authoritative texts are given to them by Noldor, the Deep Eldar - and are thus subject to the inevitable bias of natural incarnation: this means that the transcribed, translated meanings of these names convey by definition the biases of the perceiving minds of their aboriginal Elvish authors, who, although they do have better access to a universe outside of four spacetime dimensions, do not seem able to perceive the wider canopy of possible meanings of color, shape, quantity, etc.

[Boromir88]

Read the wikipedia article on Sauron and you would know his loyalty. It's quite obvious actually, obviously he is loyal to Melkor.

You know what staying loyal means right? You better edit that wikipedia article again, because you are clearly wrong.

Orly...

a)No, I just put it up to point out that he could probably read up on sauron and the answer would be obvious to him.
b)Already told him why he is clearly wrong, you want me to repeat myself to you.


Calm down the rhetoric man. This isn't some place where you win anything by stating in an interesting thread, that other people are wrong. It's actually a topic that may not have a single, clearly defined answer. Make your argument and leave it at that, no need for the rhetoric. And if you are going to disagree with other people's opinions, better come with more than wikipedia.

What I'm wondering, in all of this, is does anyone think Saruman was loyal to Sauron?

[Mumriken]

A lot of fair points, but I'm sure Morgoth would be pleased with Sauron. What he did in middle earth when he wasn't around. Loyal or not Sauron is the puppet of morgoth and will be til the end. You say Morgoth wanted chaos and Sauron order, which might be true but still the way both of them tried to accomplish their goals were much alike. Sauron was loyal to morgoth as long as morgoth was around and he'd still be loyal if morgoth was there. There was never a instance when Sauron turned his back to morgoth, he never went to Valinor therefore he stayed loyal in my opinion. That their end goals are slightly different doesn't matter, Morgoth would have been pleased...very pleased. That is all that matters. I don't think we can for certain say if Sauron considered himself greater than morgoth in any way.

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Nerwen]

Mumriken, I've been reading this most interesting thread, and I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood both the original question and the subsequent points made by other posters. I believe the problem here is one of semantics– that is, you seem very focussed on your own definition of the word "loyal". Zigur, Boro and G55 are clearly ;):p using it to mean "consciously serving another", whereas by "loyal" you appear to mean "furthering another's ends, deliberately or not". Do you see the difference?

Now, here's a little quiz for you: do you think Saruman was loyal to Morgoth? What about Gollum? Shelob? Wormtongue? Bill Ferny? Lotho Sackville-Baggins? I mean, he would have been quite pleased with all of them, wouldn't he?

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Now, here's a little quiz for you: do you think Saruman was loyal to Morgoth? What about Gollum? Shelob? Wormtongue? Bill Ferny? Lotho Sackville-Baggins? I mean, he would have been quite pleased with all of them, wouldn't he?

how would any conscious being in Arda who wishes to coerce the free will of others be disloyal by any definition to the source of Theological Evil, defined as "the removal of the free will of others(i know:p silent readers that i've used bit of tautology!)", Man Woman?

:)

[Nerwen]

Eäralda Halatiriva– I believe I have explained the distinction already. Read my post again.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Eäralda Halatiriva– I believe I have explained the distinction already. Read my post again.

oh yes, Man Woman, you've certainly used the word "conscious" in your laying out of your argument. i believe you :)


but i see still no dilemma between conscious and unconscious, as you seem to be trying to mean it :)

[Nerwen]

Then we are at an impasse. I mean, I really don't think I could put it plainer than I have already, sorry.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Then we are at an impasse. I mean, I really don't think I could put it plainer than I have already, sorry.

oh, we're not at as much an impasse as you seem to presume, Man Woman ;) you needn't apologize for anything - and most certainly not for sharing your Standpoint (something that, yes, even Mumriken is Entitled to).


keep up the interesting sharing around this Round Table, people! :D

[Boromir88]

Earalda, it still doesn't change the fact that there are different interpretations of "loyalty." Since the thread asked if we believed after the 1st age if Sauron remained loyal to Morgoth, it's reasonable to consider if he was aiming to bring back his former Master. And the bottom line, looking at it from that interpretation is, he was not.

Sauron was not interested in Morgoth's return, because Sauron saw himself as "Morgoth returned." As his pride grew, Sauron was loyal to himself, he no longer worried about the Valar intervening and this includes Morgoth. It's hard to argue he remained loyal to Morgoth (as in being loyal to a person/being. For example, as Sam's unyielding loyalty to Frodo, and denying the Ring's influence because of his loyalty to his master.), when Sauron fashioned himself as Morgoth.

Now Mumriken brings up a good point I had not considered:

Sauron was loyal to morgoth as long as morgoth was around and he'd still be loyal if morgoth was there. There was never a instance when Sauron turned his back to morgoth, he never went to Valinor therefore he stayed loyal in my opinion.


I agree, that had Morgoth not been removed, I think Sauron would have remained subordinate. But, it's a rather moot argument, since it's a "what if" scenario. Morgoth was gone and Sauron's pursuit was not to free Morgoth, but to Rule Middle-earth as his own domain.

It's not much different from Durin's Bane. After Morgoth's defeat, Durin's Bane fled and made himself a nice, humble home in Moria. Durin's Bane was not serving Sauron, nor was he serving Morgoth. However, when unwanted guests came barging in to disturb his retirement plans, he simply kicked them out. :D

My point here is, it's hard for evil to work together, and thus how can it remain loyal to another evil? It is always searching for the acquisition of more personal gain and power. Even if desiring the same, in the end there can only be one "Evil Lord." Saruman understood this when he tried to fool Sauron by joining him. Sauron capitalized on his opportunity when Morgoth was sent to the Void.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Earalda, it still doesn't change the fact that there are different interpretations of "loyalty." Since the thread asked if we believed after the 1st age if Sauron remained loyal to Morgoth, it's reasonable to consider if he was aiming to bring back his former Master. And the bottom line, looking at it from that interpretation is, he was not.


precisely! there are different interpretations of a word, as a Sign :D you've grasped it, Jewel of Faith!!! :cool:

does the image of a thing not partake in the essence of its template? :) can Sauron (as he is known in later Ages) propagate Theological Evil without having come to understand what Evil means in itself? ^^ can Energy exist without a Source?

thanks for sharing with us your beliefs. we learn much from you!

[Mumriken]

Gollum, Shelob etc did not know Morgoth. Also I'm not sure I'd call them evil. Intersting point you raised here btw, Gollum was loyal to the ring and therefore in a way to Sauron. However Gollum feared Sauron. Could one say the same of Morgoth/Sauron's relationship? If when Morgoth corrupted Mairon or Sauron to his side, was it out of fear Sauron joined him?

If it was out of fear, then I would probably agree with you that he never was truly loyal. But if he joined Morgoth for some other reason then I'd say he was loyal. Also there was no way Sauron could free Morgoth. So that he never tried to free Morgoth doesn't mean he wasn't loyal to him, because there was no way he could do that anyway so. I'm still going with this:

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Zigûr]

If it was out of fear, then I would probably agree with you that he never was truly loyal. But if he joined Morgoth for some other reason then I'd say he was loyal.
As I think has been made clear from quotations, Sauron did join Morgoth initially in admiration for Morgoth's ambitions and methods, but as Morgoth's motivations waned towards all-consuming destructive hatred perhaps Sauron's loyalty did as well. Surely otherwise he would have occupied himself with destroying the world in Morgoth's name rather than trying to take it over for himself. Consider when a prophet dies but his follower tries to carry on his work in the name of that prophet. I would consider that loyalty. But if the prophet dies and the follower abandons that work and starts a new one, that would be different. It's the same with Morgoth getting banished to the void: Sauron could carry on Morgoth's work in Morgoth's name, even though Morgoth is gone, but instead he sets about making himself a Dark Lord and ruling things his own way. What's more, he even shows disdain for Morgoth - as some of our quotes from Professor Tolkien established, it seems that Sauron considered Morgoth to be a failure and set up Morgoth as a false god in Númenor despite knowing full well that Morgoth was powerless and that Eru was the one true God.
But to change things up I thought I'd examine it from the other point of view anyway: in what ways was Sauron still following Morgoth? So I'll offer some different material from the Professor. Take this comment of Sauron's doings, for example, from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":
Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong.
So we can see that Morgoth's evil was certainly responsible for Sauron's relapse - that and his own nature, of course. Morgoth's Ring offers this consideration regarding Sauron's establishment of the Melkor-religion in Númenor:
there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor’s own terms: as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself.
Of course the Professor does qualify this:
But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time.
Professor Tolkien seems to think that really it was a matter of convenience, not loyalty, but it's still worth musing upon. I suppose Sauron could have invented any phantom for the Númenoreans to worship, but can we imagine, perhaps, that as presumably well-educated people steeped in the lore of the First Age that the Númenoreans were well aware of Sauron's prior affiliation with Morgoth and that made propounding Morgoth, rather than some made-up figure, a more believable lie?

[Belegorn]

I think some people put forward the argument of Sauron not being loyal since instead of freeing Morgoth he took up the mantle of Dark Lord himself. "Morgoth and his satellite Sauron" [Letter 156] were like mirror images. Do you really think Sauron, even if he worked with Durin's Bane, had the ability to free Morgoth from the punishment of the Valar? I think you ask an impossible and foolhardy task to prove his loyalty. Morgoth had, "secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron, a great craftsman of the household of Aule." [MR, p. 52] He followed Morgoth, "because of his admiration of strength" and soon in the 2nd Age, "he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative" and then, "claimed to be Morgoth returned" at the end of the 3rd Age. Sauron, "represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as possible" [Letter 183]. In another letter we are told how Sauron is attached to Morgoth as Gandalf is to Manwe. Also as Gandalf was his opposite so was Manwe, Morgoth's.

[Zigûr]

I think some people put forward the argument of Sauron not being loyal since instead of freeing Morgoth he took up the mantle of Dark Lord himself. "Morgoth and his satellite Sauron" [Letter 156] were like mirror images. Do you really think Sauron, even if he worked with Durin's Bane, had the ability to free Morgoth from the punishment of the Valar? I think you ask an impossible and foolhardy task to prove his loyalty.
Personally I think this idea of "bringing Morgoth back" is not only impossible but irrelevant because it has no basis in anything Professor Tolkien wrote, but Sauron could have stayed loyal by carrying on in Morgoth's name. The impression I get is that by and large Sauron did not do so, and when he apparently did do things "in Morgoth's name" it was for the sake of his own power and not in tribute to Morgoth (the establishment of darkness-worshipping religions, for instance). One of Sauron's great lies to Ar-Pharazôn was this concerning the identity of the "Lord of the Darkness":
It is he whose name is not now spoken; for the Valar have deceived you concerning him, putting forward the name of Eru, a phantom devised in the folly of their hearts, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to themselves. For they are the oracle of this Eru, which speaks only what they will. Akallabêth
The truth was the reverse, of course. Morgoth was the "phantom" Sauron devised, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to himself. Yes, Morgoth was a real person, but that fact was irrelevant beyond being a convincing lie due to Sauron's prior affiliation with him.

[Mumriken]

English isn't my first language so excuse my english anyway...
As I think has been made clear from quotations, Sauron did join Morgoth initially in admiration for Morgoth's ambitions and methods, but as Morgoth's motivations waned towards all-consuming destructive hatred perhaps Sauron's loyalty did as well.
Perhaps but remember Morgoth wasn't a nihilist at all times. Once he also wanted to rule over others. Also if by the end of his time in middle earth morgoth was a nihilist and truly wanted to destroy everything. Then there are two questions we must ask ourself:

1. Why did he not do so?
2. Why did not Sauron do this?

Is it possible that if Morgoth wanted to destroy everything, the reason Sauron did not follow in his footsteps was because he was unable do so? Sauron was far from as powerful as Morgoth, that is why he created the rings to control all others. Unlike Morgoth who could actually challenge all others and win! So I think it's a bit unfair that you say that in order for Sauron to have been loyal to Morgoth he must have done these things:

-Tried to free Morgoth (Impossible)
-Tried to destroy everything (Impossible for him)

You make it impossible for him to have been loyal to morgoth by saying that.
What's more, he even shows disdain for Morgoth - as some of our quotes from Professor Tolkien established, it seems that Sauron considered Morgoth to be a failure and set up Morgoth as a false god in Númenor despite knowing full well that Morgoth was powerless and that Eru was the one true God.
That is not a sign of being disloyal at all to Morgoth but to Eru.
Professor Tolkien seems to think that really it was a matter of convenience, not loyalty, but it's still worth musing upon. I suppose Sauron could have invented any phantom for the Númenoreans to worship, but can we imagine, perhaps, that as presumably well-educated people steeped in the lore of the First Age that the Númenoreans were well aware of Sauron's prior affiliation with Morgoth and that made propounding Morgoth, rather than some made-up figure, a more believable lie?
Loyal to himself...who else to be loyal towards? Morgoth was in the void...that he forced the numenoreans to worship Morgoth is another action that suggests he still was loyal.
Personally I think this idea of "bringing Morgoth back" is not only impossible but irrelevant because it has no basis in anything Professor Tolkien wrote, but Sauron could have stayed loyal by carrying on in Morgoth's name. The impression I get is that by and large Sauron did not do so, and when he apparently did do things "in Morgoth's name" it was for the sake of his own power and not in tribute to Morgoth (the establishment of darkness-worshipping religions, for instance). One of Sauron's great lies to Ar-Pharazôn was this concerning the identity of the "Lord of the Darkness":
Yes it's impossible for him to bring him back...
Yeah when he apparently did so it was for his own sake...whose other sake would it be for?? Morgoth was outside the world remember...you almost make it sound that the only way Sauron would be able to stay loyal to Morgoth would be to create a statue of him and start worshipping him and forcing others to do so. That would be stupid and Morgoth would agree. I still hold this view and your post has so far only encouraged me to do so.

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Belegorn]

Sauron could have stayed loyal by carrying on in Morgoth's name. The impression I get is that by and large Sauron did not do so,

Let's say this is the case, that his loyalty was based on carrying on in Morgoth's name. Now, keeping this train of thought, what about when Melkor was imprisoned for all those long years, the 3 Ages in Mandos' Halls? Did Sauron carry on in Morgoth's name or did he hide out for his own sake like many of Morgoth's other servants did? Was he punished for his disloyalty when Morgoth returned?

when he apparently did do things "in Morgoth's name" it was for the sake of his own power and not in tribute to Morgoth (the establishment of darkness-worshipping religions, for instance).

He came to Morgoth's side due to the draw of power and the power he wielded under Morgoth.

One of Sauron's great lies to Ar-Pharazôn was this concerning the identity of the "Lord of the Darkness":

Morgoth perpetuated lies among his servants all the time. All to his ends. Apparently from the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth Morgoth lied about himself similarly to the Edain. He said, "I am the Giver of Gifts" [MR, p. 346] He had them take him as Lord rather than Eru.

Morgoth was the "phantom" Sauron devised, seeking to enchain Men in servitude to himself. Yes, Morgoth was a real person, but that fact was irrelevant beyond being a convincing lie due to Sauron's prior affiliation with him.

Certainly Morgoth was not in Middle Earth at this time? Sauron building his own bases of power and seeking servants and the like to do his will does not necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth does it?

[Zigûr]

Morgoth was outside the world remember...you almost make it sound that the only way Sauron would be able to stay loyal to Morgoth would be to create a statue of him and start worshipping him and forcing others to do so. That would be stupid and Morgoth would agree.[/B]
That is indeed (albeit rather facetiously phrased) what I would consider still being loyal, no matter how "stupid" it sounds, because it would mean that Sauron was carrying on in tribute and devotion to Morgoth, not for the sake of his own power and glory. Just because it seems stupid doesn't mean it's an implausible motivation. That's what a loyal follower would do, even though the master was dead or absent. You yourself said:
Loyal to himself...who else to be loyal towards? Morgoth was in the void...that he forced the numenoreans to worship Morgoth is another action that suggests he still was loyal.
Assuming Sauron did establish this religion out of loyalty to Morgoth, this is exactly the "stupid" kind of loyalty you are talking about. Clearly by presenting this piece of evidence you yourself recognise that it is not unreasonable behaviour. The question is: was he encouraging the Númenoreans to worship Morgoth because he actually believed it would do any good or because it was what Morgoth would have wanted, or did he do it for the sake of his own power?
Let's say this is the case, that his loyalty was based on carrying on in Morgoth's name. Now, keeping this train of thought, what about when Melkor was imprisoned for all those long years, the 3 Ages in Mandos' Halls? Did Sauron carry on in Morgoth's name or did he hide out for his own sake like many of Morgoth's other servants did? Was he punished for his disloyalty when Morgoth returned?
Morgoth's Ring tells us that Sauron did indeed stay loyal to Melkor during the latter's imprisonment. He worked on rebuilding Angband, breeding Orcs and various other projects Melkor had started before his capture.
Sauron building his own bases of power and seeking servants and the like to do his will does not necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth does it?
No, it doesn't necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was still serving him either.
I guess we could simplify this discussion by analysing this question: did Sauron establish the Melkor-religion among the Númenoreans because he genuinely believed that Morgoth was God and could give blessings to the Númenoreans, in real tribute to Morgoth (or his memory) and because it was what Morgoth would have wanted? Or, on the other hand, did he do it simply out of convenience because it was the most convincing lie for Morgoth's former lieutenant to tell?

[Mumriken]

That is indeed (albeit rather facetiously phrased) what I would consider still being loyal, no matter how "stupid" it sounds
Lol, only an idiot would do that. If that is the only way sauron could be loyal then men and elves would conquer middle earth the orcs would be slain and long gone. No I'll rephrase that...you're the stupid one for saying that is the only way Sauron could be loyal to Morgoth.
Assuming Sauron did establish this religion out of loyalty to Morgoth, this is exactly the "stupid" kind of loyalty you are talking about.
No because later on it led to the destruction of Numenor.
The question is: was he encouraging the Númenoreans to worship Morgoth because he actually believed it would do any good or because it was what Morgoth would have wanted, or did he do it for the sake of his own power?
There is no question to ask...you don't get it buddy.
No, it doesn't necessarily mean he turned against Morgoth, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was still serving him either.
How could he serve Morgoth if morgoth was not in the world???????????????
I guess we could simplify this discussion by analysing this question: did Sauron establish the Melkor-religion among the Númenoreans because he genuinely believed that Morgoth was God and could give blessings to the Númenoreans, in real tribute to Morgoth (or his memory) and because it was what Morgoth would have wanted? Or, on the other hand, did he do it simply out of convenience because it was the most convincing lie for Morgoth's former lieutenant to tell?
He convinced them to worship Morgoth so that they would turn against the Valar...he did this in service of Morgoth AND himself. You say the only way he could be loyal is to put on a chastity belt and attract people to some stone temple where they would sit and pray to Morgoth all day and night...you don't think it's stupid but it indeed is...

I hope I don't have to paste this again...

Sauron is more loyal to Morgoth than he is to the valar by being loyal to himself.

[Zigûr]

How could he serve Morgoth if morgoth was not in the world???????????????
he did this in service of Morgoth AND himself
So he in fact could serve Morgoth even though Morgoth was not in the world?
But I do appreciate this idea that Sauron's plans and his loyalty to Morgoth were not necessarily mutually exclusive. However:
No I'll rephrase that...you're the stupid one for saying that is the only way Sauron could be loyal to Morgoth.
I take objection to this. I joined this forum to have a friendly discussion about Professor Tolkien's work, not to be called "stupid" just for having a different opinion to someone else.

[Zigûr]

Ok let's point out where you're stupid then...
Can I just stress again how much I take objection to being called stupid? Making personal insults against me doesn't make your case any stronger.
However what you could have done to show your appreciation for your husband, is to rape 500 people then burn down a police station and not get caught! You could drug the officials down and try to make them rape for you!!!
As much as I find this whole hypothetical scenario incredibly distasteful I understand what you mean. The point is: was Sauron doing all his evil things to show his appreciation for Morgoth? If he was, I would consider that loyal. However, I think he had more selfish motivations. Where is the evidence, actual quotes from Professor Tolkien's work, which says that Sauron did these things out of appreciation for Morgoth? He even qualifies the human sacrifice religion in Númenor as being probably founded out of convenience, not genuine appreciation. Incidentally, I don't consider generally evil actions to be "in appreciation" for Morgoth just because all evil ultimately derives from Morgoth. We need to distinguish between deliberate and incidental. If Sauron did what he did for Morgoth, deliberately wanting to do it because it's what Morgoth would have wanted or as tribute to him then I would consider that loyal. But if his activities just happened to coincide with what would have pleased Morgoth or what Morgoth would have wanted, but showing appreciation for Morgoth didn't actually play any role in Sauron's decision-making then I would not consider that to be loyal. I wouldn't consider it to be especially disloyal either. I'm just trying to muse on whether Sauron did what he did because he thought Morgoth would have approved. It's like after someone dies you do something "because it's what they would have wanted." It seems to me that Sauron was fairly neutral about Morgoth at best, and at worst considered him to be a failure who'd lacked the willpower and strength to bring about the order Sauron craved. Do you think Sauron was doing this stuff because it's what Morgoth would have wanted?
But because I want a healthy discussion I thought I'd provide some more examples for Morgoth's lingering influence in Sauron's life. The Appendices to The Lord of the Rings at least twice name Sauron as "Sauron, servant of Morgoth" in reference to events that occurred in the Second and Third Ages. Sauron is at least still recognised as Morgoth's underling after Morgoth's own defeat. There is also the note from Letter 183 we've mentioned which I admit to finding very intriguing:
By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age he claimed to be Morgoth returned.
Evidently Morgoth was still an important figure in terms of enabling Sauron's control of much of Middle-earth. In regards to "the position of Morgoth's representative" does Professor Tolkien strictly mean in regards to the Númenoreans or did he do the same elsewhere he held dominion? Did the Men of Rhûn and the Harad know enough to distinguish between Morgoth and Sauron? Was Sauron able to pass himself off as Morgoth in the Third Age because the Men of Darkness worshipped a nebulous "Lord of the Dark", a role which Sauron could assume?
May I just say however that in regards to your analogy I do find the idea of Sauron being Morgoth's "wife" to be rather amusing.

[Boromir88]

I'd hate to see what has been an insightful thread and brought up many different perspectives be closed down.

Remember, make your posts on topic and no need for the ad hominen arguments:

Barrow-downs Forum Policies (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=5993)

&

Guidelines for Forum Posting (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11805)

[Nerwen]

Mumriken, I have no idea why *this* particular topic, of all things, should be such a sore point with you, or whether this is just how you normally react to disagreement– but either way it's gone far enough. As a longstanding member of this site, I can tell you that the way you've been behaving is just not on here. Kindly tone it down.

[Mumriken]

You seem to make much out of the; Morgoth wanted chaos and destruction and Sauron wanted order. One could say that Sauron's being and Morgoth's being are slightly different. Before time Sauron was a servant of Aule the smith. But unlike Aule Sauron wanted things for himself. I discussed this in another thread but Aule is really the moral absolute in Arda since he created the dwarves then was willing to give them away. He created much and gave it all away. Not wanting to own things is at least in Tolkien's universe moral excellence. But Sauron wanted to own things and therefore turned to Morgoth because he admired his power and saw that through him he could order things and make himself OWN things. He wanted power and got it through Morgoth.

Now Morgoth didn't want things, he was already the most powerful being in Arda and had no need for things. He wanted to destroy what didn't derive from his music. Now Morgoth was eventually thrown out of the world. Now here Sauron had two choices to give up his power and control and return to Valinor. Or stay true to who he is or wanted to be...of course he is selfish and I bet if he could snap his fingers and all morgoth's power would be his he would. Howerver when Morgoth was captured and thrown out of the world I don't think Sauron was very pleased. All beings in our world and in the fictional are attached to someone. We need others...it's clear than Sauron needed Morgoth to become what he wanted to become. To be powerful and have control over others and order things to his liking.

So yes at the time of Morgoth's capture Sauron was loyal to him. Not out of fear but out of admiration for Morgoth and his ways of doing things. He stayed loyal to the very end and as far as I understand it he asked for pardon out of fear...for he saw the power of the valas. But now comes the big suprise, he didn't abandon Morgoth's ways. He deceived Numenor into worshipping Morgoth and later sail towards Valinor and later be crushed by the valas. TWO PARTS:

-Order
-Morgoth's way of achieving order

The only part of his being that isn't "loyal" to morgoth is that unlike morgoth he wanted order. However he chose Morgoth's ways of achieving order. Now that is being loyal to Morgoth in my opinion, since he could not free morgoth. Achieving his sense of order while destroying numenor and killing I don't know how many elves dwarves and men. He is being more loyal to Morgoth than to any other being in Arda by doing this. Loyal to himself?? What does that even mean, he even called himself the second Morgoth. Now if that isn't being loyal to morgoth I don't know what is. He would rather have Morgoth at his side than being alone that is for sure. The only reason he made the rings was because he could not win by force alone...while morgoth could.

I find the encounter Sauron's spirit had with Aule in lord of the rings most interesting. You know when Aule plays around with the ring? It's like Aule laughs at his old pupil...anyway if in your world the only way Sauron could show his loyalty towards sauron is to force slaves into worshipping him while elven cities are being built and slowly moving towards to east...then I'm not sure what you're thinking with. I think I'm done with this thread, I feel like I'm repeating myself now to no effect.

[Zigûr]

To me, following someone's methods does not constitute loyalty. Faithfulness to their cause or leadership does. In my opinion, judging by the Professor's exploration of Sauron and Morgoth's motives, Sauron shared Morgoth's methods but did not employ them in faithfulness to Morgoth or Morgoth's cause, but rather in the pursuit of his own self-interest. When it comes to loyalty, it appears to me that the intentions are crucial. Whether or not he would prefer to have Morgoth still around is pure conjecture which conflicts substantially with Professor Tolkien's suggestions that Sauron ultimately considered Morgoth to be a failure and viewed his absence as a great opportunity for personal aggrandisement.
Nonetheless I agree that the discussion appears to have run its course and I apologise if I have been repetitious.
Sadly an issue of semantics was not really what I was expecting to be the issue of this discussion. Also, I apologise that this thread has been a source of any difficulty.

[Mumriken]

Well then it's impossible for ANYONE to be loyal at all. Because all beings in our world and in the fictional have their own motives. Sauron was no slave to morgoth, he chose willingly to work with him. Also I find this notion of Sauron wanting order and Morgoth wanting chaos very...well unimportant. I mean let's imagine Morgoth sat in the void looking into the world at what Sauron was doing. Would he think:

"OH look, he is making those orcs stand in orderly lines...he isn't being loyal to me!!...look how he destroys numenor trying to achieve order and not destruction...he is so disloyal to me!!"

I think not, I think he would be pleased. Even if Sauron unlike Morgoth wanted order it doesn't matter. By forcing the numenoreans to worship morgoth and later naming himself the second morgoth he shows his admiration and loyalty to the devil who has been thrown out of the world and therefore Sauron no longer could serve...to become the second morgoth would be the most loyal thing he could possible be doing towards morgoth. That Saruon wanted some order and Morgoth wanted chaos is irrelevant, I also find it hard to imagine Morgoth or Sauron even thought of themself as order and chaos.

It's only to us who read the stories they appear in that way. Therefore I don't think it matters to the characters at all that one represents a form of order and the other a form of chaos. In the end Sauron remained a servant of morgoth and not to the other side. That is all that matters...I think the person who wrote sauron was loyal to morgoth before you edited it was right. Maybe you should change it back eh? Spreading misinformation we are I think...:smokin:

[Nerwen]

I find the encounter Sauron's spirit had with Aule in lord of the rings most interesting. You know when Aule plays around with the ring?
??? What on Earth are you talking about?:confused:

if in your world the only way Sauron could show his loyalty towards sauron [sic] is to force slaves into worshipping him while elven cities are being built and slowly moving towards to east...then I'm not sure what you're thinking with.

Must I repeat myself? Mumriken, there is nothing in Zigur's posting to warrant the insults you've been directing at him. Stop it.

[Mumriken]

Nerwen could you please stop whatever you're doing. Not sure what you're thinking with isn't an insult. Just a way to point out that I don't agree with him. This conversation is civil, you are just sensitive.
??? What on Earth are you talking about?
Well my personal belief is that Tom's Aule. See "Gandalf on Bombadil" for more info on that...

[Nerwen]

That is all that matters...I think the person who wrote sauron was loyal to morgoth before you edited it was right. Maybe you should change it back eh? Spreading misinformation we are I think...

Just a hunch– and you don't have to answer if you don't want to– Mumriken, were you, by any chance "the person who wrote sauron was loyal to morgoth" in the Wikipedia article. Is that what this is all about? A Wikipedia edit-war?

Anyway, whether that's so or not, your position is not, to my mind, so very self-evident that no right-thinking person could fail to agree with it– as seems to be your own belief. While you've made some valid points, much of your case appears to rely on simply stating that you're right and other people are wrong.

Edit: X'd with Mumriken.

[Nerwen]

Nerwen could you please stop whatever you're doing. Not sure what you're thinking with isn't an insult. Just a way to point out that I don't agree with him. This conversation is civil, you are just sensitive.
No, you've been very rude and aggressive throughout– bizarrely so, given how abstract the topic is.

Well my personal belief is that Tom's Aule. See "Gandalf on Bombadil" for more info on that...

Surely a word of explanation was in order, then?:rolleyes:

[Zigûr]

to become the second morgoth would be the most loyal thing he could possible be doing towards morgoth.
In my opinion Sauron's masquerading as Morgoth more comes across as potentially "blasphemous" (although I realise we are talking about the bad guy here) than a show of loyalty. If he was so loyal to Morgoth would he be pretending to be Morgoth? Wouldn't he have just kept claiming to be his representative? I guess that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but it doesn't seem like Sauron did any of these things because he thought Morgoth would approve. That's what matters - what did Sauron think about what he was doing? Did he consider it a tribute to Morgoth or did he now only care about himself?
As we have already seen, Professor Tolkien considered Sauron encouraging the Númenoreans to worship Morgoth something he did out of convenience, not out of respect for his former master.
I think not, I think he would be pleased.
This doesn't matter. Sauron's loyalty is dependent upon Sauron's intentions alone, not whether or not Morgoth would be pleased. That's incidental. Was Sauron trying to please Morgoth? The evidence doesn't seem to suggest that Sauron cared. If he cared, he would be loyal, but it doesn't seem that he cared any more about Morgoth beyond as a phantom he could use to scare and manipulate people. That doesn't mean he's disloyal, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it means he was still trying to do what Morgoth wanted.
Spreading misinformation we are I think...
Sorry, I was kind of misrepresenting myself when I said that. Actually, I was cleaning up a lot of misinformation someone else was spreading, and replacing it with references to published material. The only editing I made on Wikipedia was to alter explicit statements that claimed as fact that Sauron faithfully propagated Morgoth's cult in places other than Númenor without providing any evidence from Professor Tolkien's writing to support it. The fact that we cannot agree on it suggests to me that stating it as cold hard fact would be misleading. I also took the opportunity to make Morgoth's legacy more explicit with annotations referring the reader to the same evidence from Morgoth's Ring and the Letters as has been used here. The article formerly made this claim:
Sauron always remained faithful in his allegiance to Melkor; as Sauron expanded his empire into new lands, with it he would also spread a cult devoted to Melkor-worship, promising that one day he would return from the Void. Temples dedicated to Melkor were built by Sauron's servants throughout Rhûn and Haradwaith, where human sacrifice was practiced.
Where does Professor Tolkien write anywhere that Sauron promised his subjects that Morgoth would return? Where does he even state that he established human sacrifice cults anywhere besides Númenor? Whoever wrote that hadn't provided any references and I certainly couldn't find anything to support it. That was what I objected to. I never wrote anything to say that Sauron became disloyal or that he rebelled against Morgoth or anything of that sort. There was also this:
even by the end of the Third Age, the Cult of Melkor was effectively the "state religion" of Mordor
As far as I can tell this is almost entirely invention on someone's part, and they completely contradict elements of Professor Tolkien's own writing. Consider this from "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":
In the east and south well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days and built many towns and walls of stone, and they were numerous and fierce in war and armed with iron. To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire.
Sauron set himself up as god to the Easterlings and the Haradrim, not Morgoth; he wasn't in the weak position he'd been in with the Númenoreans and was an egotist and wanted to be worshipped. What I objected to was what appeared to be someone basically extrapolating Sauron's activities in Númenor to the whole of Middle-earth without evidence and despite evidence in direct contradiction of those claims; this can be the trouble with things like Wikipedia. The main ambiguity I can find is this issue of Sauron pretending to be Morgoth in the Third Age. That kind of muddles the issue of how Sauron was worshipped; perhaps he just conflated himself with Morgoth because the Men of Darkness didn't know the difference.

[Mumriken]

Then you don't have to edit the wikipedia article.
In my opinion Sauron's masquerading as Morgoth more comes across as potentially "blasphemous" (although I realise we are talking about the bad guy here) than a show of loyalty. If he was so loyal to Morgoth would he be pretending to be Morgoth? Wouldn't he have just kept claiming to be his representative? I guess that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery but it doesn't seem like Sauron did any of these things because he thought Morgoth would approve. That's what matters - what did Sauron think about what he was doing? Did he consider it a tribute to Morgoth or did he now only care about himself?
As I said Sauron was no slave under Morgoth, and what point would there be in preaching about Morgoth if he was chained outside the world unable to return? I think you have a very narrow view on how to be loyal towards someone. Anyway I'm not going to keep babbling on about this, I have already said what there is to say and it doesn't seem to sink through. We have to agree to disagree...

[Boromir88]

Well then it's impossible for ANYONE to be loyal at all. Because all beings in our world and in the fictional have their own motives. Sauron was no slave to morgoth, he chose willingly to work with him. Also I find this notion of Sauron wanting order and Morgoth wanting chaos very...well unimportant. I mean let's imagine Morgoth sat in the void looking into the world at what Sauron was doing. Would he think:


Not necessarily. As I've pointed out with Sam, it was his loyalty to Frodo which was a factor in his rejection of the Ring. You could say it was Faramir's loyalty in doing the same as well.

Where, simply put, it's very difficult for one evil to be loyal to another evil. I mean would one argue that Orcs had a strong sense of loyalty to Morgoth, or Sauron?

[Belegorn]

We must keep in mind the difference between some servants and others. Orcs and the like were slaves. Sauron and others willingly flocked to Morgoth, some before and some after entering Arda.

[Zigûr]

Where, simply put, it's very difficult for one evil to be loyal to another evil. I mean would one argue that Orcs had a strong sense of loyalty to Morgoth, or Sauron?
I think this is the issue. Evidently Sauron admired Morgoth at first, before either of them had wholly fallen into evil, but it would seem to me that as both of them descended into darkness Sauron would have become incapable of this kind of positivity. Professor Tolkien certainly casts doubt upon the "shadow of good" in Sauron's nature by the time of the downfall of Númenor. He "profited by this darkened shadow of good and services of ‘worshippers’" - it had become part of his nature to twist anything, even apparent acts of humility, to his own gain. It's hard to imagine Sauron in the Third Age, who evidently loved no one but himself, still feeling any affection for Morgoth or devotion to his cause.

[Mumriken]

Where, simply put, it's very difficult for one evil to be loyal to another evil. I mean would one argue that Orcs had a strong sense of loyalty to Morgoth, or Sauron?
Lol why can't I give this up xD xD

The reason Sam rejected the ring was because he loved Frodo. This loyalty exists in all beings that are dependent on another being. It's actually a form of love the orcs have for Sauron. Because he gives them what they want, just like Frodo gives Sam what he wants. Sauron was loyal to Morgoth because morgoth gave him what he wanted, power and control. By not turning his back to morgoth even after he was thrown out of the world. Sauron has shown his loyalty to Morgoth. Even if Morgoth is not there to give him power he still honors Morgoth by trying to follow in his footsteps even though he is unable to do so because of not being as powerful as him. Everything he did in the second and third age to some degree served morgoth's purpose. Probably the reason he did not fully destroy the children as Morgoth tried to do was because he simply wasn't powerful enough to do so.

That beings who are "evil" have a hard time being loyal is just a biased view from the people who consider themself to be good.

-Mumriken

xD xD xD

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Gollum, Shelob etc did not know Morgoth. Also I'm not sure I'd call them evil. Intersting point you raised here btw, Gollum was loyal to the ring and therefore in a way to Sauron. [/B]

:D

what does this fixation with the giving of Rings tells us about the imaginary world of this particular Legendarium? how about our respective, thoughtful choice of Avatar names here? i'll suggest that it demonstrates that we understand precisely the point about languages in the linguistic sense - just as Tolkien himself knew by his fostering of this vision into the empirical world.


would the Timeless entity whom the Noldor tell us names himself Sauron demonstrate a similar Shadowy fealty to 'Melkor' that, say, Ungweliantë did?

[Zigûr]

This loyalty exists in all beings that are dependent on another being. It's actually a form of love the orcs have for Sauron.
The Orcs served Sauron out of fear, not love. They fear him (and the Nazgûl) more than they feared their enemies.
Even if Morgoth is not there to give him power he still honors Morgoth by trying to follow in his footsteps even though he is unable to do so because of not being as powerful as him.
If it was written somewhere that Sauron thought he was doing this deliberately to honour Morgoth I would agree with you. I guess I just don't believe that you can be "accidentally loyal". Loyalty in my opinion involves some element of deliberate decision-making.
Probably the reason he did not fully destroy the children as Morgoth tried to do was because he simply wasn't powerful enough to do so.
I'm afraid Professor Tolkien covered Sauron's lack of destructive intent:
the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all the inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron’s right to be their supreme lord)
Also:
Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. ~Morgoth's Ring.
Sauron wanted to rule Middle-earth and its inhabitants. Whether or not he had the power to destroy it/them isn't especially relevant: even if he could, he didn't want to.

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

I think this is the issue. Evidently Sauron admired Morgoth at first, before either of them had wholly fallen into evil, but it would seem to me that as both of them descended into darkness Sauron would have become incapable of this kind of positivity. Professor Tolkien certainly casts doubt upon the "shadow of good" in Sauron's nature by the time of the downfall of Númenor. He "profited by this darkened shadow of good and services of ‘worshippers’" - it had become part of his nature to twist anything, even apparent acts of humility, to his own gain.

why does "down" tend to connote (theological) Evil, while "up" tend to connote (theological) Good in this Legendarium?

we discover in the Valaquenta that the turning of (conceptual) Darkness to Theological Evil is one of the most loathsome deeds of that Being who is known in the Age of the Lamps by the term Melkor (in Noldoran texts) - that there were times when Darkness had not yet been corrupted with Melkor's Malice and been made Bearer of Fear and Quencher of Lights... that In the beginning, Irmo, Lord of Dreams, used the Embrace of the Soothing Darkness to convey his Visions.....

now, why is that, would you say? does this tell us anything about the use of what you might call an iconic Language, that has its most engaging effects when there is a community of minds that share an interpretive horizon, which is to say have been enculturated with a similar perceptual "toolkit"?

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

The Orcs served Sauron out of fear, not love.

"when one sows Vice, one reaps Orcs" - Elvish proverb

[Mumriken]

Ungoliant was if not above Morgoth at least his equal. Unlike Sauron Morgoth could give Ungoliant little because Ungoliant wanted little. Sauron wanted much and therefore Morgoth had much to give and sauron loved him for it. Now this love might not be the same love you show towards your mother but it's still a form of love.
The Orcs served Sauron out of fear, not love. They fear him (and the Nazgûl) more than they feared their enemies.
Not really, before Sauron the orcs were small tribes with little but no power. Under Sauron many of them gained power. That doesn't mean they didn't fear him but I'd say it was a love/fear relationship. Not so different from the relationship most people have towards their teacher or boss. Just a bit more severe perhaps. Listen to your teacher and you will get good grades, do not listen to him and you will get bad grades. There is a bit of fear in that situation as well...however you love your teacher when he gives you good grades do you not?
If it was written somewhere that Sauron thought he was doing this deliberately to honour Morgoth I would agree with you. I guess I just don't believe that you can be "accidentally loyal". Loyalty in my opinion involves some element of deliberate decision-making.
And Sauron chose to join Morgoth, and he chose not to turn back to valinor after morgoth was captured. He chose to be loyal to Morgoth. He wouldn't be able to show his loyalty better.
Sauron wanted to rule Middle-earth and its inhabitants. Whether or not he had the power to destroy it/them isn't especially relevant: even if he could, he didn't want to.
As I said earlier, it doesn't matter if Sauron wanted order and Morgoth wanted chaos. The characters themself didn't think of themself as being order and chaos. It's only you who think of them that way therefore by "being order" Sauron didn't turn his back to Morgoth. However by destroying Numenor and doing what he did in the 2nd and 3rd ages he showed his loyalty to Morgoth.

The only way he could have been disloyal to morgoth would have been to go back to valinor. You must understand that all humanoids be them fictional or not need other people. If someone gives you something you want you like them, even "evil" beings are capable to love eachother. You might not recognize it as good because you consider them evil. If Tolkien thought Sauron was truly evil, well that is a biased position. Morgoth was truly evil, but Sauron...no I don't think so. If Sauron was the one thrown out and Morgoth remained I don't think Morgoth would care at all. However in Sauron there is still some admiration and love towards superior beings. Even if love is a strong word to use I think this is the case.

He was loyal to morgoth.

[Zigûr]

If Tolkien thought Sauron was truly evil, well that is a biased position. Morgoth was truly evil, but Sauron...no I don't think so.
Well if we can't take Professor Tolkien's word for it I don't know what we can do. While he didn't believe in absolute evil, he thought that Sauron was about as close as you could get:
In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as possible. ~Letter 183.
This suggests to me that Sauron had gone beyond any capacity for a positive emotion like love or admiration. In the same letter he makes this remark:
Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants; if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world.
This is the same quote which includes the note about him pretending to be Morgoth. It doesn't seem to leave much room for Morgoth in Sauron's heirarchy; if he was still loyal, wouldn't he have set up Morgoth as god (even though he was in the void, he could do it in tribute to him or the memory of him) and portrayed himself simply as a disciple? It seems that he wanted the glory for himself. I like to think that Professor Tolkien understood the motivations of his characters better than any of us.
However, in regards to Sauron admiring and admitting the love of superior beings, he wrote this (sorry for the big quote):
there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor’s own terms: as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself. Melkor, and still more Sauron himself afterwards, both profited by this darkened shadow of good and services of ‘worshippers’. But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time. His cunning motive is probably best expressed thus. To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance and another hope of benefits; propound to him a Lord who will sanction what he desires and not forbid it. Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise him from hostage to high priest. ~Morgoth's Ring.
So I guess the Professor leaves it up to us to make up our own minds on the subject. We can look at it in two ways:
1. Sauron promoted Morgoth as a god because he still admired his superiority.
2. Sauron exploited the memory of Morgoth just to make himself powerful; it was pure manipulation and nothing more.
In the end there's some room for both points of view, although personally I find the second one more supportable and consistent with other examples from the texts. I guess the difference here is that I'm relying mostly on scrutiny of Professor Tolkien's writing rather than a broader view of the human condition (in so far as it applies to a non-human fictional character).

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Ungoliant was if not above Morgoth at least his equal. Unlike Sauron Morgoth could give Ungoliant little because Ungoliant wanted little.


would her Name give to her to the exclusion of her will fealty to 'Melkor', being that he is the Source of Theological Evil - or is this naming process a reflection of the perceptual "toolkit" of Rúmil?

:)

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

Well if we can't take Professor Tolkien's word for it I don't know what we can do. While he didn't believe in absolute evil, he thought that Sauron was about as close as you could get

what makes you assume that this Legendarium is a closed, rather than an open code? ;) that it can be translated only in terms of Monotheistic tradition, even if said subcreation clearly reflects in very many ways the unconscious ontology of Tolkien? :)

for the audience - what is this process and conversation saying to you?

[Zigûr]

what makes you assume that this Legendarium is a closed, rather than an open code?
I suppose because Professor Tolkien termed it a "sub-creation" and he was the "sub-creator". As such while there are numerous undisclosed elements upon which we can only speculate, there are certain aspects made explicit in notes, letters and such about things which, were they referent to parts of the primary world we would consider subjective but which the "sub-creator" can describe objectively in regards to his "sub-creation". That's at least how I look at it. I know some people hold that only what we read in The Lord of the Rings can be taken at face value (and that not even The Hobbit and certainly not The Silmarillion, let alone other material, can be read as a completely accurate portrayal of the Professor's vision) but I find that to be a limiting notion. As far as I'm concerned if Professor Tolkien wrote it and it's not later contradicted anywhere by something he wrote then within the "sub-creation" of Middle-earth it's objectively true - unless he himself left it open for speculation, of course!

[Eäralda Halatiriva]

I suppose because Professor Tolkien termed it a "sub-creation" and he was the "sub-creator". As such while there are numerous undisclosed elements upon which we can only speculate, there are certain aspects made explicit in notes, letters and such about things which, were they referent to parts of the primary world we would consider subjective but which the "sub-creator" can describe objectively in regards to his "sub-creation". That's at least how I look at it. I know some people hold that only what we read in The Lord of the Rings can be taken at face value (and that not even The Hobbit and certainly not The Silmarillion, let alone other material, can be read as a completely accurate portrayal of the Professor's vision) but I find that to be a limiting notion. As far as I'm concerned if Professor Tolkien wrote it and it's not later contradicted anywhere by something he wrote then within the "sub-creation" of Middle-earth it's objectively true - unless he himself left it open for speculation, of course!

and your speculative suppositions are, well, truthful ;)

but i suppose this is like saying that all Signs can have only one meaning, now isn't it? but i will opine that, all Signs, all codes are infinitely fertile, and fecund, yes? :D inter-subjectively, naturally.

since when was creativity a one-way street? what would Belegûr have to say on that?

[Mumriken]

1. Sauron promoted Morgoth as a god because he still admired his superiority.
2. Sauron exploited the memory of Morgoth just to make himself powerful; it was pure manipulation and nothing more.
In the end there's some room for both points of view, although personally I find the second one more supportable and consistent with other examples from the texts. I guess the difference here is that I'm relying mostly on scrutiny of Professor Tolkien's writing rather than a broader view of the human condition (in so far as it applies to a non-human fictional character).
Why choose Morgoth and not anyone else to put forth as a false god for people to worship? Not only that but his actions all speaks for loyalty towards morgoth. However I do think with the ages passing some of the loyalty was forgotten, he became more consumed by his own being so to speak.

[Zigûr]

However I do think with the ages passing some of the loyalty was forgotten, he became more consumed by his own being so to speak.
This thought struck me as well. It doesn't seem unreasonable to view it as a gradual process: Sauron the loyal lieutenant in the First Age, then in the Second Age despite lacking a master he's still very influenced by Morgoth; he's not yet completely dominated by his own pride. Then by the Third, having expended so much of his own potency on himself and his policies, he's much more self-absorbed - the point at which:
his ‘plans’, the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself ~Morgoth's Ring
Everything decayed "in the wearing of the swift years of Middle-earth" - even the villains.

[Mumriken]

Seems like we have come to an agreement then. Peace :smokin:

[Sarumian]

An interesting thread. Let me add my 2 cents.

If we compare loyalty to gravity, would a moon remain loyal to a planet if the planet has gone? Probably, the moon would still carry many traces of it's former master's influence and would even consist of the same combination of substances, but it is no more a satellite. It is no more kept in and directed by it's former master's gravity. Then everything depend on what exactly you mean by 'loyalty'.

May I also rise the question if Stalin was loyal to Lenin? After Lenin's death Stalin ran an official quasi-cult of Lenin with a pyramid, containing Lenin's mummified body in the middle of Moscow. Stalin always presented himself as a defender of Lenin's ideas and attitudes against various opportunists (such as Trotsky). However, Stalin followed Lenin's ideas in his own interpretation, quite opportunistic sometimes. Moreover, Lenin died, loosing his battle against his "dedicated disciple".

On May 25, 1922, Lenin suffered a stroke while recovering from surgery to remove a bullet lodged in his neck since a failed assassination attempt in August 1918. Severely debilitated, he went into semi-retirement and moved to his dacha in Gorki. Stalin visited him often, acting as his intermediary with the outside world.[2] During this time, the two quarrelled over economic policy and how to consolidate the Soviet republics. One day, Stalin verbally swore at Lenin's wife for breaching Politburo orders by helping Lenin communicate with Trotsky and others about politics;[2] this greatly offended Lenin. As their relationship deteriorated, Lenin dictated increasingly disparaging notes on Stalin in what would become his testament. He criticised Stalin's rude manners, excessive power, ambition and politics, and suggested that Stalin should be removed from the position of General Secretary. One of Lenin's secretaries showed Stalin the notes, whose contents shocked him.[2] Before Stalin could mend any bridges, Lenin suffered a heart attack on March 10, 1923 which left him completely incapacitated.

Rise of Joseph Stalin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_of_Joseph_Stalin) in Wikipedia, providing the generally accepted interpretation of the affairs.

Did Stalin respect Lenin as a politician? Yes. Did he serve Lenin's cause with dedication? Yes. Did he usually support Lenin in his disagreements with other Party members? Yes. Did he keep Lenin's reputation extremely high after Lenin's death? Yes.

Did Stalin undisputedly implement suggestions of handicapped Lenin in the last months of his life? No. Can we think he really wanted Lenin to recover? No. Did he have most of Lenin's associates eliminated in "purges"? Yes. Did he revised Lenin-Trotsky cause of world-wide Communist revolution, working out a "Leninist" Socialism-in-one-country theory of his own? Yes.

So was Stalin loyal to Lenin? It, again, depends on what do you mean by loyalty.

Was Sauron loyal to Morgoth after the 1st Age? I think, Sauron was loyal to himself. He was loyal to his own essence shaped under Morgoth's patronage, but no more personally to Morgoth.

[Mumriken]

You think but I and Zigur now know...let it rest. I want to get away from this thread.

[Findegil]

An interesting thread, even so it some time created too much heat.

A view remarks:
Melkor never wanted chaos. Has plans had an order of there own. The chaos resulted only in the fact that his plans did not harmonise with that of Eru. (At least not at fist, if we look to the discribtion of the end of the music of the Ainur, we see that Eru's themes had gained at that point a flexibility that made them take up the music of Melkor into their own fabrication, a win - win - situation even so the Melkor party seemed not to understand that.) Thus the question if Sauron in the second age spreaded chaos or tried to establish order doesn't matter at all.

And Melkor never wanted any evil things to exist, evil was only what arrived out of the friction between Melkors theme in the music and that of Eru. Nonetheless Melkor did chose willfuly to be in oposition to Eru (ceeping his own theme up after Eru tried to mend the music), which is an evil deed.

For me at least it seems clear that Tolkien wrote his legendarium in such a way, that being in opposition to Eru would be an eroding state. It brought Melkor down from the being with the highest potential benath Eru himself to a faint shadow of its former self that could be brought down be pure physical force, and that the Valar (with Eru's agreement) even could banish from Ea (without a great destruction that they had feared ealier in the history of Ea). Sauron it brought down from one of the Maiar of highest rank to a ghost unable to make his will effectiv in the physical world at all. Saruman as a last example it brought down from being the highest of the order of the Istari to the same state as Sauron, a ghost with out any influence.
The point is, that the more you become fixed in the state of opposition to Eru, the more you lose your own abilities (and creativity might be the most important ability in this). Melkor as the prime example does become even nihilistic, he tries to destroy everything that comes from other ideas then his own (which in the end is the whole Ea, since he was nowhere alone in its creation). But even if Melkors motives at the end of the first age were nihilistic, his actions were not fully so. He still used the creations of others to further his cause.

Ainu like Sauron did know that Eru exists and that Melkor is a created being of their own order. How could they follow Melkor at all? Well, Melkors ideas were not evil, they were just diffrent. And remember that Eru smiled at first. Melkor was created as a (sub-)creator. For lesser Ainur to tune their music to his would be okay at first as ist was for other Ainu to follow some of the other later Valar like Ulmo or Aule. It seems from the example of Gandalf that it was even okay to wander with your music from one leader to the next, and way should it be other wise? Only after Eru had shown his distast for the theme of Melkor, to play it further would bring them in oposition to Eru.

Now one important motive that Melkor had for changing the theme of Eru, was to make his own role in the music more important. This selfish motive seems to be the one taint that anybody who joined him shared (evil in Tolkiens legendarium is none coopeartive). And we see this over and over again when charachters of evils attitude are at the point of no return, it is their selfishness that kicks them over the brink.

The unanswered (and by tzhe way also unasked) question of this thread is: Is there a difference between being loyal to Melkor and being evil?

If we look to the music of the Ainur alone the answer seems to be no. But if we take all the letters and stuff that we have on Saurons motives, that doen't seem to be true to me any longer. In essence you might be in opposition to Eru but not loyal to Melkor any more, even so Melkor might have been the rout course of your opposition to Eru. That is Melkors theme was not based on the opposition to Eru, it just became that by chance. But what an Ainu played could be not in tune with Erus theme and not in tune with Melkors theme.

Respectfuly
Findegil