Rings of Power talk!

[Radtech51]

I know of many questions that were never specifically answered by J.R.R. Tolkien himself. I think in many ways he preferred to keep a lot a mystery like his famous character Tom Bombadil. I put together a list of nine questions that I thought were very interesting, I also I thought that we could explore the questions together. I’ve included my answer for each of the questions listed below but I would like to hear yours as well, please enjoy.

Some basic history first, (going from memory here).

In the beginning the elves created many rings (magic rings), the lesser rings were but essays in the craft until if was full-grown, they were of various sorts some more potent some less. To the Elven smiths they were but trifles (something of little importance or value), but to Gandolf's mind still to dangerous for mortals. The greater rings the rings of power were perilous, if a mortal kept one he would no longer age nor would he die but simply continue until at last every moment would be a constant weariness. And if he often used the ring to become invisible he would become invisible permanently and forever walk under the twilight shadow in the realm of the dark Lord.

Sauron the deceiver tricked and betrayed the Elven smiths so he could then learn the craft of ring making and in doing so later in secret forge the one master Ring, (The one Ring to Rule them All). 20 rings of power total were created 19 were created by the elves and one was created by Sauron, himself making the one master ring. As it goes, Nine for the mortal men doomed to die, seven for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone, three for the Elven king’s under the sky, and one for the dark Lord in his dark throne. In the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.

As it is said when Sauron forged the one ring in secret he was revealed as a traitor and his true self was revealed. Sauron's ruling ring could not be kept as secret once it was created and thus Sauron was revealed as a traitor to the elves.

So what ended up happening to all 20 rings?
We know that the nine are accounted for, (Nazgul), the five were consumed by Dragons and the other two were captured by Sauron or destroyed. The remaining three were hidden form Sauron and have never been touched by him. Gandolf has one of them Narya is set with a red stone and is the element of fire. Galadriel's ring is known as Nenya set with a white stone and is the element of creation. Elrond's ring Vilya is set with a blue stone and is the element of air.

We also know that the three remaining rings of power are of a different type then the one ruling ring Sauron created, they can't be used in the same way to wage war or control others that was not their design. All 19 of the Greater Rings of power that the elves created were of the same craft but did very in function it would seem, it was never told specifically what each of the 19 greater rings could do but it was assumed that they had functions that were of good nature, learning etc. but most certainly not for evil use or by design like the one ring was. It wasn’t until Sauron later captured many of the greater rings that they were then turned to evil use. Sauron’s master ring was really the only one among the twenty that was specifically evil and was used as a weapon by design.

So now it comes to the questions, please feel free to debate and state your opinion about the rings and their uses, I’d very much like to here your opinions.

Why did Sauron not create more rings of power?

A: I suppose we may never know for sure if he ever attempted it during the war, at the very least he would have created a few of the lesser rings and designed them specifically for control over his servants, perhaps the one who called himself the mouth of Sauron was given such a ring? As for crafting more of the greater rings of power that feat would have proved more difficult especially since a large portion of his former power passed away from him when he lost the original ruling ring. However it is plausible to think that perhaps his control over the Nazgul or even his realm was diminishing over time without the one ruling ring back in his possession. Put more specifically his days in control over the Nazgul were numbered the moment he lost the one ring. This might also explain why he didn’t want to create any additional rings of power in fear that if he did so it would have further threatened his control over his realm without the one ring back in his possession first.

Why wasn’t Saruman the white giving one of the three greater rings of power originally since he was appointed to the task of learning about the craft?

A: So we know that it was Saruman’s task to learn everything he could about the rings of power, we also know that Saruman’s knowledge of the craft was very extensive. According to JRR Tolkien himself there existed a very real possibility of him finding the lost lore he needed and creating his own greater ring of power. So one might conclude that Saruman would have been the perfect choice to be chosen as one of the secret wielders of the three. My only conclusion is that the elves just didn’t trust Saruman but I’m sure he was still considered originally for the task. I’m also going to assume that the white council chose Saruman to be tasked with the responsibility of learning all about the rings and their lore and the decision had no bearing on him as a suitable wielder. One might also conclude that if by giving Saruman one of the remaining three greater rings of power it would have brought more attention to something they did not wish known. Saruman being the more powerful of the Wizards at the time just wasn’t the wiser choice.

Why is it none of the three greater rings of power never turned their wielders invisible even when they had them on?

A: Did Gandolf, Galadriel or Elrond ever even use there rings of power to become invisible?
Surely we know that all 20 greater rings of power had this ability, so I’m going to assume that every one of the wielders except for the Hobbits knew how to control this power. To become invisible came at a cost as we all know and I’m sure they didn’t want to pay the price for the ability.
We also know that Gandolf, Galadriel and Elrond always kept there ring of power on them and the rings were invisible to everyone but themselves or to another wielder with a great ring. For example Frodo was able to see Galadriel’s ring of power when Sam could not. It’s my belief that with training Frodo could have learned much about the ring and how to control it assuming he bent all his effort towards the task. However Galadriel warned him not to try in fear it would destroy him.


Why didn’t the ring wraiths ever use there rings to become invisible in the books?

A: They most surely had in the beginning which is why the ring wraiths now walk in the twilight land permanently and are almost all but invisible to anyone looking upon them directly. I’m also going to assume that they could have used there rings in the story to make themselves completely invisible but didn’t see the need to do it. Their eyesight was very poor and they needed there steeds as eyes. Also couldn’t make steeds become invisible anymore then Frodo could make his sword become invisible once he drew it from his sheath. However it would bring a potentially potent combat advantage to them if they were ever dismounted. I think the main reason none of them ever used the rings to become invisible during combat was due to over confidence.


What kind of power did the one master ruling ring that Sauron created really have?

A: In the books Galadriel said that the rings gave power according to one’s stature. We also know that at ring had the power of command and heightened one’s awareness, it also granted invisibility and exceptionally long life. With the one ring Sauron also created structures and fortresses so we know it also had the power of creation as well.

If I was to add to the list of powers I believe it would also grant the ability to call forth great army’s to it’s command and grant powerful control over them. I also believe the wielder could be granted great physical strength in combat and be given the power of domination over others most likely through fear.

What ever happened to all the lesser magic rings and might they have been also used in the war?

A: I’m going to assume for the most part they were all lost or destroyed, however I don’t think they would have been made for combat or destruction but more for learning and building. I think Sauron was the only one who ever warped the rings to do such evil things. I also think that Saruman must have had one of the lesser rings for his own or could have most certainly of made one for himself with this knowledge. Perhaps it was one such ring that gave him the gift he had over others with the use of his voice?

What exactly did Gandolf’s ring do? Was Narya the ring of fire?

Gandolf was known to be very talented and powerful when it came to the use of fire. Was it because of his spell knowledge as a Wizard? Or was it because of his use of the greater ring he wielded? When he fought the Balrog for example did the ring give him some kind of limited fire protection? Could his ring have ever been used as a weapon period? We know he stated before that the three were not crafted for such use but I can’t help but wonder. Did his ring grant him a better understanding of fire and of it’s control? Did it allow him to set things ablaze like he did on weather top when fighting off the Nasgul?
Upon reflection Gandolf did say he needed something to work with and couldn’t just create fire from nothing, so can we can assume the ring couldn’t do that? Or perhaps not, it’s quite possible that he was forbidden to ever use the ring in fear that it might bring attention to himself or reveal to Sauron where it could be found. And if Sauron captured Gandolf’s ring we know it would have been turned to evil use like he did with the Nasgul’s rings.

Could the one master ring have ever been used for good?

A: In the books they made this question rather clear, No. Put simply the one master ring was crafted by Sauron and a large portion of his power and former self was put into it’s making. It was made specifically for the sole purpose of gaining power by controlling others and any wielder who bent his will towards using it would have ended up like Sauron himself or as one of the Nasgul. To wield and use the ring you would have to become very similar to Sauron himself, you would end up dominating others and craving power. In order to use the ring to it’s full potential you would have to do these things or else the ring would utterly reject you, and if the ring knew you didn’t have the power in you to do these things it would just use you Intel it could work it’s way to another wielder. According to Gandolf a ring of power looks out for itself and no mortal could resist it’s control over you indefinitely, it would gain control over you in the end and it would ultimately dominate you. All the wise knew this and feared to touch it use it or even take it even to keep it safe due to that reason.

What ever happened to the King of the Nazgul’s ring when he was slain?

A: As for this question I’m not sure, I didn’t hear anything about it I’m going to assume it ended up on the battlefield covered with dirt and debris from the battle and remained there. Perhaps after the battle someone came by and pick it up not knowing what it was? Or perhaps Gandolf went and retrieved the ring himself and placed it somewhere safe temporarily? Ultimately the one Ring was destroyed so this ring would have lost it’s power, still it would’ve made a Great souvenir.

[Pervinca Took]

Something has just occurred to me: why didn't Saruman try to take Narya from Gandalf when he imprisoned him? Was he not aware that he had it? I know he was made jealous by someone's comment "Not as the last" (can't remember it exactly, but it was to the effect that Gandalf might in fact prove the greatest of the Istari, and Saruman heard it and resented it).

[Radtech51]

Something has just occurred to me: why didn't Saruman try to take Narya from Gandalf when he imprisoned him? Was he not aware that he had it? I know he was made jealous by someone's comment "Not as the last" (can't remember it exactly, but it was to the effect that Gandalf might in fact prove the greatest of the Istari, and Saruman heard it and resented it).

That is a very good question, I'm going to assume he didn't know that Gandalf had the ring? The three rings of power were originally given to the elves and I don't know how Gandolf ended up with one of them but we can assume it's because the elves trusted Gandolf greatly and respected him more than any other. Anyway I'm very sure it had to be a kept a secret between the elves and himself only. I get the feeling that Gandolf never really trusted Saruman or approved of him ever becoming the leader of the white council, so it could have been that Gandolf himself told the elves not to entrust one of the greater rings to Saruman.

[blantyr]

That is a very good question, I'm going to assume he didn't know that Gandalf had the ring? The three rings of power were originally given to the elves and I don't know how Gandolf ended up with one of them but we can assume it's because the elves trusted Gandolf greatly and respected him more than any other. Anyway I'm very sure it had to be a kept a secret between the elves and himself only. I get the feeling that Gandolf never really trusted Saruman or approved of him ever becoming the leader of the white council, so it could have been that Gandolf himself told the elves not to entrust one of the greater rings to Saruman.

Gandalf's ring was originally given to Cirdan of the Grey Havens.

'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I well dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee.'

[Radtech51]

Gandalf's ring was originally given to Cirdan of the Grey Havens.

Ah ok very good there seems to be sources of information that I have not yet acquainted myself with, so did Cirdan end up giving the ring to him and did it explain why?

[Pervinca Took]

For the reasons in Blantyr's second quote.

Maybe Saruman never knew Gandalf had the Third Ring, or maybe he thought it inconsequential, as the Three were not made to help the Bearers control others.

Did Tolkien ever call Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond Ringbearers? The first time I heard them referred to as such was in the BBC radio dramatisation - when Gandalf said "I too am a Ringbearer."

BTW, great first post, Radtech51! :)

[Legolas]

Gandalf's ring was not a magic fire-blasting wand-type weapon or anything; nor were any of the rings that we know of. The power of the Three is described by Elrond at the Council of Elrond:
'The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But there were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.'
And in Appendix B, Cirdan tells exactly why he gives Narya to Gandalf:
For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill.
Gandalf put Narya to use for the exact mission he was sent: to rouse the good people of Middle-earth to action, to inspire and rally them together.

Saruman did eventually know that Gandalf had a ring. In the Istari chapter in Unfinished Tales:

"But Cirdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

'For,' said he, 'great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task should prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.'

And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

As Pervinca Took alluded, tension was already present between Saruman (Curumo) and Gandalf (Olorin) from the moment they were chosen to sail to Middle-earth as emissaries. In the same chapter as above, there is essay about a meeting of the Valar where the wizards are comissioned; this detail is recorded:

Manwë replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-Earth. But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
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So we know that it was Saruman’s task to learn everything he could about the rings of power, we also know that Saruman’s knowledge of the craft was very extensive. According to JRR Tolkien himself there existed a very real possibility of him finding the lost lore he needed and creating his own greater ring of power.
Knowledge of this ring craft wasn't specifically a 'task' assigned to Saruman, but rather it was a personal interest taken up by him in greed. Saruman would not have been in a great position to take Gandalf's ring, and he would have almost no use for it anyway. It might have even been risky.

Saruman, in his knowedge, would have know that the Three were never tainted, and accordingly did not submit to evil desires. His motivation was greed, thus Narya would've been useless to him. Gandalf tells Frodo as much in 'The Shadow of the Past':
He knows that it is not one of the Three, for they have not been lost, and they endure no evil.
Perhaps you might ask if he would want Narya simply to make sure Gandalf no longer had it. Though he did strand Gandalf atop Orthanc, there was no great fight (as the movie portrays...); to take Narya from Gandalf may have taken all of Saruman's strength, if indeed he could have beaten Gandalf at all. It was not worth it. At that point, Saruman's focus is to find the One Ring, which he suspects is abroad, and is the reason he confronts Gandalf to begin with. He knows time is of the essence, and suspects Gandalf knows where it is.

Even if he were to find a way to get Narya, Saruman's brash attitude suggests he probably wouldn't have kept ownership of it secret as the humble Gandalf did. Instead, he would have worn it proudly, drawing attention to himself. Sauron would've become aware of this, which wouldn't have been in Saruman's best interest.

It is worth noting that Saruman did manage to make his own ring, but it was apparently a failure. Hadn't worked out the kinks yet, I guess!
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A: Did Gandalf, Galadriel or Elrond ever even use there rings of power to become invisible?
Surely we know that all 20 greater rings of power had this ability, so I’m going to assume that every one of the wielders except for the Hobbits knew how to control this power.
I've never read anything that suggests any of the rings aside from the One Ring had the ability to grant invisibility to its wearer. This is a trait unique to Sauron's ring.
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Why didn’t the ring wraiths ever use there rings to become invisible in the books?

A: They most surely had in the beginning which is why the ring wraiths now walk in the twilight land permanently and are almost all but invisible to anyone looking upon them directly. I’m also going to assume that they could have used there rings in the story to make themselves completely invisible but didn’t see the need to do it.
In addition to the last question (the other rings didn't grant invisibility as far as I know), once dead, the Nine no longer wore their rings. Instead, Sauron kept them which is how he controlled their wills when he did not have the One Ring.

The Nine were present in the 'wraith-world' (what you call twilight) in death because they were mortals who wore the corrupted rings - not because of anything relating to invisibility. Though their bodies had died and faded because they were designed to be mortals, they were able to persist somewhat immortally through the corruption of the rings as long as the One Ring existed. Some other immortal beings have this trait (being present in the spiritual realm) as well.

We know at least High Elves could exist/were visible simultaneously in the physical realm and the spiritual realm. Gandalf explains to Frodo why he was able to see Glorfindel.
'And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'

'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'

'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.'

[Pervinca Took]

I've never read anything that suggests any of the rings aside from the One Ring had the ability to grant invisibility to its wearer. This is a trait unique to Sauron's ring.

Gandalf: "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Rings of Power, does not die, but neither does he grow or obtain more life ... and if he often uses it to become invisible, he fades; he becomes in the end permanently invisible ...."

I think they conferred invisibility, but to mortals only.

I think there was a discussion on the LOTR Plaza a while ago to the effect that the invisibility factor was possibly a mere by-product/unintended additional effect of the production of the rings, not a specific purpose in design.

[Radtech51]

Gandalf's ring was not a magic fire-blasting wand-type weapon or anything; nor were any of the rings that we know of. The power of the Three is described by Elrond at the Council of Elrond:

And in Appendix B, Cirdan tells exactly why he gives Narya to Gandalf:

Gandalf put Narya to use for the exact mission he was sent: to rouse the good people of Middle-earth to action, to inspire and rally them together.

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Reply: Thank you for sharing that it explains much.
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Saruman did eventually know that Gandalf had a ring. In the Istari chapter in Unfinished Tales:



As Pervinca Took alluded, tension was already present between Saruman (Curumo) and Gandalf (Olorin) from the moment they were chosen to sail to Middle-earth as emissaries. In the same chapter as above, there is essay about a meeting of the Valar where the wizards are comissioned; this detail is recorded:

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Reply: Very interesting thank you for sharing that it does explain some of the issues between the two.
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Knowledge of this ring craft wasn't specifically a 'task' assigned to Saruman, but rather it was a personal interest taken up by him in greed. Saruman would not have been in a great position to take Gandalf's ring, and he would have almost no use for it anyway. It might have even been risky.

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Reply: I might be wrong but I do remember reading that that specific task was appointed to him. Of course whether or not he appointed it to himself I don't know?
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Saruman, in his knowedge, would have know that the Three were never tainted, and accordingly did not submit to evil desires. His motivation was greed, thus Narya would've been useless to him. Gandalf tells Frodo as much in 'The Shadow of the Past':

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Reply: That's assuming that the rings had no other use for Saruman but to do good? I'm not convinced that Narya would have been useless to him and I belive all the greater rings of power to be of value.
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Perhaps you might ask if he would want Narya simply to make sure Gandalf no longer had it. Though he did strand Gandalf atop Orthanc, there was no great fight (as the movie portrays...); to take Narya from Gandalf may have taken all of Saruman's strength, if indeed he could have beaten Gandalf at all. It was not worth it. At that point, Saruman's focus is to find the One Ring, which he suspects is abroad, and is the reason he confronts Gandalf to begin with. He knows time is of the essence, and suspects Gandalf knows where it is.
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Reply: So Saruman did know Gandolf had one of the greater rings in his possession? I'm surprised when he was captured Saruman didn't attempt to take it although I do understand your logic when you say it would have been a big battle. Sauron sought after the three hidden rings of power so I'm convinced Saruman wouldn't be any different. Sauron alone had the ability to turn the greater rings to evil use but I can't help but wonder if Saruman couldn't have used Gandolf ring in some way to help him? After all he was trying to learn how to make a greater ring of power wouldn't Gandolf's ring have given him a blueprint of some kind? At the very least he would have had a gift to give Sauron one would think?

PS: I always did wonder why Gandolf never did fight Saruman like in the move? In the book it just said that Gandolf was taken, at that moment couldn't they have taken the ring as well?
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Even if he were to find a way to get Narya, Saruman's brash attitude suggests he probably wouldn't have kept ownership of it secret as the humble Gandalf did. Instead, he would have worn it proudly, drawing attention to himself. Sauron would've become aware of this, which wouldn't have been in Saruman's best interest.

It is worth noting that Saruman did manage to make his own ring, but it was apparently a failure. Hadn't worked out the kinks yet, I guess!
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Reply: I didn't know he attempted to try and make a greater ring? I was referring to one of the lesser rings, I wouldn't be surprised if he was able to make one of those.
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I've never read anything that suggests any of the rings aside from the One Ring had the ability to grant invisibility to its wearer. This is a trait unique to Sauron's ring.
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Reply: I believe Gandolf was talking about all rings of power when he said this to Frodo. "The greater rings the rings of power were perilous, if a mortal kept one he would no longer age nor would he die but just continue until it last every moment was a constant weariness. And if he often used the ring to become invisible he would become invisible permanently, and forever walk under the twilight shadow in the realm of the dark Lord."

I believe this would also explain the ability for each ring to become invisible on the wielders hand if they wished it. I might be wrong but this is the way I interpreted it, I never came across any document that I can recall that stated that the ability of invisibility was only granted to the one ring and not the others.
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In addition to the last question (the other rings didn't grant invisibility as far as I know), once dead, the Nine no longer wore their rings. Instead, Sauron kept them which is how he controlled their wills when he did not have the One Ring.

The Nine were present in the 'wraith-world' (what you call twilight) in death because they were mortals who wore the corrupted rings - not because of anything relating to invisibility. Though their bodies had died and faded because they were designed to be mortals, they were able to persist somewhat immortally through the corruption of the rings as long as the One Ring existed. Some other immortal beings have this trait (being present in the spiritual realm) as well.
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Reply: I'm not convinced of this, the greater rings of power granted immortality to the Nine who were given the rings of power and they would not die or age, nor were they likely to ever give up their rings willingly. As Gandolf says no one ever willingly gives up a ring of power, the ring may play with the idea but only if it serves a goal. Rings of power look out for themselves primarily like Gandolf said.

We know at least High Elves could exist/were visible simultaneously in the physical realm and the spiritual realm. Gandalf explains to Frodo why he was able to see Glorfindel.

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Reply: I had read somewhere that Glorfindel was resurrected? I believe it was to fix a contradiction of an earlier tale of Glorfindel being killed by a Balrog and also introduced one of the rare instances where Resurrection took place in middle Earth?
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[Aragrax]

From Galadriel: "the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor".

So . . Lesser folk become invisible, while great power becomes even greater power.


Saruman was trying to convert Gandalf, so that may have factored into his not taking the ring. He might also have been unable to take it as the ring was a thing of true Art, and Saruman was a diminished thing by that time. We see how Gollum responded to elf-rope, and Narya was far, far greater in craft and "purity" or perhaps even "holiness", if one wants to give it a name.


Note that I always correlated Gandalf's skill with fireworks and the like with Narya. While it was a thing to kindle spirits, it likely granted understanding of fire in general, as well as "providing" a certain grey-cloaked wizard with a "firey" temper.

After all, each Istar had a focus, and Gandalf's was clearly languages and cultures, not fire. He was a philologist, really. Can't imagine why, of course. . .


As to why more rings were not made. .

1) they may not have been needed. Maybe there were 7 dwarf kings and 9 mortal kings of note, and that's all that was needed to hold sway.

2) Perhaps adding more rings would have made it harder for Sauron to maintain control over all of them (spreading him thin, as it were).

3) 3, 7, and 9 are magical numbers. There are few others in Western tradition, save 13, and JRRT would have had to come up w/a race for that batch.

4) On that last note: 3 is trinity (or rather, Trinity), which a Catholic would connect good images with; 7 is the number of deadly sins; and Dante had 9 RINGS of hell for men to lodge themselves in with their follies. This last bit (all of point 4) is speculation/IMO, but JRRT was a very devout Catholic, and such associations would have been lurking about his brain.

[Mumriken]

I have always found the rings to be quite dull and uninteresting in the Tolkien mythology. However I do wonder if invisibility was given to every race that wore Sauron's ring. Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo were all hobbits and besides Isildur were the only ones who put on the ring. The movie makes it look like Isilidur too could become invisible. However I'm not sure if that is in the book. If it isn't one can assume the ring amplifies the power that is already within the person/creature that is wearing it. It's a bit of Sauron's spirit put into the wielder.

If this is true one could speculate as to what would happen if different characters in the story put on the ring. Like what would happen if an elf or a dwarf put it on. What would happen if one of the maias put it on!? Saruon put some of his power into the ring, so to put it on he would only become whole. While Gandalf for example putting it on would amplify his maia spirit with that of sauron's. How many maiar makes a vala?

That Tom Bombadil made the ring dissapear and when Frodo put it on still could see him suggests to me he is a vala. If not Aule, the ruler of all matter then some unknown vala of unknown strength. Anyway I find this Tom Bombadil creature to be very interesting, Tolkien said he put Bombadil into the story as a important comment. Why so important? I know it's off topic but all topics seem to lead to the ultimate and most interesting mystery within the lord of the rings.

[Legolas]

Good catch on the mortal/invisibility bit, my oversight. It has been a while!

Re: Saruman's task, I meant that the only mission given to the wizards was to take on the forms of old men, travel to Middle-earth, and motivate the races there to combat Sauron. Any other tasks would've been something he chose for himself later on.
____

I think any of the Three, specifically, would have been of no use to Saruman in his selfish, evil plan to replace Sauron. As Gandalf stated, the Three (Vilya, Narya, and Nenya) would "endure no evil." Intentionally kept from Sauron by Celebrimbor, they had no evil in them, and so had no tolerance for it. Gandalf's phrase "endure no evil" sounds like they may have even been able to render themselves limp in the hands of evil, basically incomprehensible to one of selfish intent even in the breaking down. We do not know if he had the strength or knowledge to unmake such a great thing. In any event, that is speculation and I think the key is that Saruman did not wish to fight Gandalf head on for it (at least not yet), and was content with the thought that he had Gandalf, along with Narya, imprisoned on his tower.

Saruman needed Gandalf alive because he suspected Gandalf knew the whereabouts of the Ring, which was far more important. Saruman also knew he had very little time; he was in a race against Sauron to find the One. A battle would've been in neither wizard's best interest. Even if Saruman was confident of his odds against Gandalf, he would not have fancied a potential face off with Sauron soon after. Saruman had not yet deceived himself so far as to think he could handle both Gandalf and Sauron.

I imagine the two wizards would have nearly killed each other, much like Gandalf and Durin's Bane (the Moria balrog). Gandalf admits later that he didn't want to fight Saruman as it would've been in vain. I think he'd have said the same of the balrog, only in that matter he had no choice. His situation with Saruman does not reach that point. We do not know what Saruman intended to do with Gandalf apart from pry him for his knowledge of the Ring's location. His approach to Narya could've been as simple as "I'll get it from him tomorrow, after I've had a good breakfast." Saruman's decisions are made under the impression that Gandalf was in his clutches until he decided otherwise; it was not in the plans for him to be flying away on an eagle!
____

Still, the wraiths were already invisible by the time Frodo had the Ring:
And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion)

They did not have their rings any longer to use anyway, but if they had, whatever further 'invisibility' you could suggest would be of limited usefulness. Their main power was inciting terror, and they did that with ease. Furthermore, their invisibility did not seem to affect their cloaks or steeds, which they were almost always accompanied by in accounts we're given.

The Nine were subject to counterfeit immortality, a different immortality than Elves; in a way they almost die in that their fundamentally mortal bodies could not endure immortality (this is unchangeable by any save Eru), and so they faded to Wraiths, the invisible creatures Frodo met. They only achieve longevity. After this passing into the shadow, they need not actually have the rings in their possession to continue 'living' or be invisible. Their immortality continued for as long as their rings existed and were powered by the One Ring.

Sauron does indeed hold the Nine Rings, which is how he continued to control them even without the One Ring in his possession. We're told so in a few places:

At length therefore he [Sauron] resolved to use the Ringwraiths. He had been reluctant to do so, until he knew precisely where the Ring was, for several reasons. They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved by their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his master. (The Hunt for the Ring, Unfinished Tales)
I do not think they could have attacked [Frodo with the One Ring at Weathertop] with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor command of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. (#246, Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien)
So it is now; the Nine he had gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still. (Gandalf to Frodo, Fellowship of the Ring)
You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. (Galadriel to Frodo, Fellowship of the Ring)

[Pervinca Took]

The movie makes it look like Isilidur too could become invisible. However I'm not sure if that is in the book.

It is. The ring treacherously slips from his finger when he jumps into the Anduin, and that is why he is killed - because the orcs see him and shoot him.

[jallanite]

Of the rings Sauron created, Tolkien writes in Letter 131 to Milton Waldman (emphasis mine):
And finally they [the Rings of Power created in part by Sauron] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and to make things of the invisible world visible.

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.
So the rings worn by Cirdan and Gandalf, by Elrond, and by Galadrial “did not confer invisibility.” Presumably all of the other Rings of Power did or could confer invisibility.

But in The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, III DURIN’S FOLK, Tolkien writes of the dwarves:
But they were made of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows or enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by the Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it.
This implies that dwarves could not be rendered invisible merely by the wearing of one of the Seven Rings. (If they had been rendered invisible, one would have suspected that the dwarves would have known of this power and would have suspected when they learned of Bilbo’s ring that it might be one of the lost dwarf rings.) Possibly a dwarf wearing a Ring could become invisible by so willing.

[Radtech51]

From Galadriel: "the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor".

So . . Lesser folk become invisible, while great power becomes even greater power.

Reply: Interesting concept although one might think becoming invisible would be in the greater power list?


Saruman was trying to convert Gandalf, so that may have factored into his not taking the ring. He might also have been unable to take it as the ring was a thing of true Art, and Saruman was a diminished thing by that time. We see how Gollum responded to elf-rope, and Narya was far, far greater in craft and "purity" or perhaps even "holiness", if one wants to give it a name.

Reply: I see your point but if Sauron sought after the three greater rings of power in hope to turn them to his use why not Saruman?


Note that I always correlated Gandalf's skill with fireworks and the like with Narya. While it was a thing to kindle spirits, it likely granted understanding of fire in general, as well as "providing" a certain grey-cloaked wizard with a "firey" temper.

Reply: I agree his ring might have granted him better understanding of fire in general. Might this have been turned to evil use if Sauron ever captured his ring?

After all, each Istar had a focus, and Gandalf's was clearly languages and cultures, not fire. He was a philologist, really. Can't imagine why, of course. . .


As to why more rings were not made. .

1) they may not have been needed. Maybe there were 7 dwarf kings and 9 mortal kings of note, and that's all that was needed to hold sway.

2) Perhaps adding more rings would have made it harder for Sauron to maintain control over all of them (spreading him thin, as it were).

Reply: This was my belief as well.

3) 3, 7, and 9 are magical numbers. There are few others in Western tradition, save 13, and JRRT would have had to come up w/a race for that batch.

4) On that last note: 3 is trinity (or rather, Trinity), which a Catholic would connect good images with; 7 is the number of deadly sins; and Dante had 9 RINGS of hell for men to lodge themselves in with their follies. This last bit (all of point 4) is speculation/IMO, but JRRT was a very devout Catholic, and such associations would have been lurking about his brain.

Reply: I did not know that about Prof. Tolkien although it does not surprise me.
.

[Radtech51]

Good catch on the mortal/invisibility bit, my oversight. It has been a while!

Re: Saruman's task, I meant that the only mission given to the wizards was to take on the forms of old men, travel to Middle-earth, and motivate the races there to combat Sauron. Any other tasks would've been something he chose for himself later on.

Reply: [quote] You might be right although I still get the impression that this was a task appointed to him by the white council, at the very least agreed upon by them.
____

I think any of the Three, specifically, would have been of no use to Saruman in his selfish, evil plan to replace Sauron. As Gandalf stated, the Three (Vilya, Narya, and Nenya) would "endure no evil." Intentionally kept from Sauron by Celebrimbor, they had no evil in them, and so had no tolerance for it. Gandalf's phrase "endure no evil" sounds like they may have even been able to render themselves limp in the hands of evil, basically incomprehensible to one of selfish intent even in the breaking down. We do not know if he had the strength or knowledge to unmake such a great thing. In any event, that is speculation and I think the key is that Saruman did not wish to fight Gandalf head on for it (at least not yet), and was content with the thought that he had Gandalf, along with Narya, imprisoned on his tower.

Reply: Why did Sauron seek the hidden three then? Or why keep them Secret? Especially if one knows the hidden three could never be used for evil purposes?

Saruman needed Gandalf alive because he suspected Gandalf knew the whereabouts of the Ring, which was far more important. Saruman also knew he had very little time; he was in a race against Sauron to find the One. A battle would've been in neither wizard's best interest. Even if Saruman was confident of his odds against Gandalf, he would not have fancied a potential face off with Sauron soon after. Saruman had not yet deceived himself so far as to think he could handle both Gandalf and Sauron.

I imagine the two wizards would have nearly killed each other, much like Gandalf and Durin's Bane (the Moria balrog). Gandalf admits later that he didn't want to fight Saruman as it would've been in vain. I think he'd have said the same of the balrog, only in that matter he had no choice. His situation with Saruman does not reach that point. We do not know what Saruman intended to do with Gandalf apart from pry him for his knowledge of the Ring's location. His approach to Narya could've been as simple as "I'll get it from him tomorrow, after I've had a good breakfast." Saruman's decisions are made under the impression that Gandalf was in his clutches until he decided otherwise; it was not in the plans for him to be flying away on an eagle!

Reply: If Gandolf did indeed think the fight would have been in vain then I suspect he thought he would have lost the fight. Otherwise why risk being taken captive and Saruman finding the ring? I'm convinced that you are correct, Gandolf had thought they if he resisted Saruman he would have been killed no doubt it, and then for sure the ring would have fallen into his hands. To become Saruman's captive was the only choice at hand in his mind.
If Saruman was to try and take the ring from Gandolf I suspect Gandolf would not and could not have resisted without being killed, ring of no ring Gandolf allowed himself to be taken captive because he had no other choice. So I remain puzzled why Saruman did not take Galdolf's ring other then the fact he still thought he could have persuaded Gandolf in joining him and by taking Gandolf's ring would have destroyed any chance of that in his mind.
____

Still, the wraiths were already invisible by the time Frodo had the Ring:


They did not have their rings any longer to use anyway, but if they had, whatever further 'invisibility' you could suggest would be of limited usefulness. Their main power was inciting terror, and they did that with ease. Furthermore, their invisibility did not seem to affect their cloaks or steeds, which they were almost always accompanied by in accounts we're given.

The Nine were subject to counterfeit immortality, a different immortality than Elves; in a way they almost die in that their fundamentally mortal bodies could not endure immortality (this is unchangeable by any save Eru), and so they faded to Wraiths, the invisible creatures Frodo met. They only achieve longevity. After this passing into the shadow, they need not actually have the rings in their possession to continue 'living' or be invisible. Their immortality continued for as long as their rings existed and were powered by the One Ring.

Sauron does indeed hold the Nine Rings, which is how he continued to control them even without the One Ring in his possession. We're told so in a few places:

Reply: I don't doubt this but I find it very hard to swallow, why would the wraiths allow Sauron to take the rings away from them? Why would the rings have no other usefulness to them other then to make then invisible? These were greater rings of power corrupted and turned evil by Sauron's hand once he captured them, surely they had other important virtues the wraiths could have used?
.

[Radtech51]

Of the rings Sauron created, Tolkien writes in Letter 131 to Milton Waldman (emphasis mine):
And finally they [the Rings of Power created in part by Sauron] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and to make things of the invisible world visible.

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.
So the rings worn by Cirdan and Gandalf, by Elrond, and by Galadrial “did not confer invisibility.” Presumably all of the other Rings of Power did or could confer invisibility.

Reply: Very interesting but why then did the One Ring have power over them?

But in The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, III DURIN’S FOLK, Tolkien writes of the dwarves:
But they were made of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows or enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by the Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it.
This implies that dwarves could not be rendered invisible merely by the wearing of one of the Seven Rings. (If they had been rendered invisible, one would have suspected that the dwarves would have known of this power and would have suspected when they learned of Bilbo’s ring that it might be one of the lost dwarf rings.) Possibly a dwarf wearing a Ring could become invisible by so willing.

Reply: Makes you wonder what uses the Dwarfs even found in the Greater Rings given to them? Or why they were even selected to be given Rings of Power due to it's limited effect on them?
.

PS: I can't help but wonder this... If the Greater Ring's of Power were never designed for mortals why then were they given to them?

[jallanite]

Very interesting but why then did the One Ring have power over them?

Because Sauron, the foremost expert in the power of the Great Rings, made it to have power over the other Great Rings.

PS: I can't help but wonder this... If the Greater Ring's of Power were never designed for mortals why then were they given to them?

Because Sauron saw that immortal and invisible Men completely under his control would be useful servants/slaves. The Elves may not have even considered giving rings to humans. But Sauron, as it later turned out, had a different agenda than did his Elvish helpers.

[Nerwen]

Radtech, it looks like you're putting "quote" tags around some of your own comments, so I'm not actually sure whether the following was asked by you, or someone earlier in the thread.

Reply:
Quote:
I don't doubt this but I find it very hard to swallow, why would the wraiths allow Sauron to take the rings away from them? Why would the rings have no other usefulness to them other then to make then invisible? These were greater rings of power corrupted and turned evil by Sauron's hand once he captured them, surely they had other important virtues the wraiths could have used?
At any rate, the answer is that the wraiths had no will of their own by this point, and thus no say in the matter.

[Zigûr]

Because Sauron saw that immortal and invisible Men completely under his control would be useful servants/slaves. The Elves may not have even considered giving rings to humans. But Sauron, as it later turned out, had a different agenda than did his Elvish helpers.
Quite so, the Seven and the Nine were given out by Sauron himself after he seized them during the War of the Elves and Sauron, not by the Elves. There is that tradition in Khazad-dûm that the Ring of Durin's line was given to them directly by the Elves rather than by Sauron but it's not completely verifiable:
It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk to be the first of the Seven that was forged; and they say it was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-Smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it, since he aided in the forging of all the Seven. ~Durin's Folk
I wonder - did Sauron intend for the Nine to turn their bearers into Wraiths? It was certainly useful that they did, but was it part of his plan? The Seven hadn't quite worked as planned on the Dwarves (they only made them greedy and wrathful, not susceptible to external control), but maybe that was the exception due to their unusual natures, which Sauron did not fully understand. I suppose the most efficient way to use the Nine would be to have them always controlling the same nine Men who never died, and thus making them into Wraiths would seemingly be the only way to do that, and had certain perks like making them terrifying and sorcerous. I always got the impression that the Seven and the Nine were identical, which is to say sixteen Great Rings with identical powers, and that their division was based solely on race; the Seven only had strange effects because Dwarves were using them.
But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. Seven rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will. And all those rings that he governed he perverted... etc ~Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
This would mean that Sauron had to an extent wasted seven of them on the Dwarves and might explain why he spent a certain amount of effort in the Third Age trying to recover them. Did he want to re-use them and never got around to it, or were they simply too much of a potential danger as weapons in the hands of his enemies so long as he lacked the One? It is said of the Dwarves using the Seven that:
wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.
But perhaps "evil enough" was not quite the kind of top quality evil (as it were) that Sauron really wanted. It seems to me that his master plan with the Rings, to have effectively conquered all of Middle-earth in one stroke, was on the one hand a brilliant gambit which would have payed off extravagantly if properly executed and yet, evidently, contained a great deal of risk which proved to be his downfall.

[Findegil]

In my oppinion, Sauron when he made the One did already expect that the Elves would resist him and take of the Rings as soon as they saw that he could controll them through their rings with the One. Therefore he uttered the vers about dealing out the Rings to the people of Middle-Earth.
It maight have been his plan from the start, to delivere the Rings to Dwarves and Men, but I am not so sure about that. To teach the Elves the spezial lore needed to forge the Rings in a way that he could controll all the Rings with the One, even so he had not helped in the forging of all Rings, is one thing. But to decieve the Elves in a way that they thought they would forge the Rings for themself, but acually would do it for the use of other races by Saurons design seem a bit to komplicated for me. But it is not impossible. Maybe the plan was more subtile and the abilities of the Seven and the Nine were suggested by Sauron to the Elven-smiths, so that it was easy for him to dedicate them later to Dwarves and Men.

Anyhow that the Seven failed to bring the Dwarves under Saurons controll, is clear. And that Sauron gave the Rings to the Dwarves is evidence enough that he tried exactly that. So at least that part of Saurons plan failed. But why?
The offering of three Rings to Dain does cast some doubt on the failer. On the one hand the offer could be a simple lie. But then we have to consider what was offered really: Three Rings for the Dwarves when Sauron would regain the One. Maybe he couldn't controll the Dwarves but he could see what was done with the Rings (Galadriel gave withness of these talking to Frodo). So at least he would have gained a spy glass into the mind of the dwarvish ring-bearers, most likely high ranking Dwarve-Lords.
A second factor might have been that Dúrin III recieved his Ring directly from Celebrimbor and not from Sauron. Celebrimbor gave it to Dúrin for save keeping not for use, he might have provided the Dwarves with ample warning about the influence of Sauron on that Ring in particular and the Rings in general. That means in contrast to the Men that got their Rings the Dwarf-Lords of Khazad-dûm might have had a warning, what they were dealing with. And the other Dwarves that got the Rings from Sauron might have gained the warning through communication with Khazad-dûm. So maybe as did the Elves the Dwarves started using their Rings only after Sauron lost the One. Which would explain why the Rings did not work as Sauron expected.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Radtech51]

Radtech, it looks like you're putting "quote" tags around some of your own comments, so I'm not actually sure whether the following was asked by you, or someone earlier in the thread.


At any rate, the answer is that the wraiths had no will of their own by this point, and thus no say in the matter.

Sorry about that was a mistake in the format thanks for catching that. I still think that the wraiths powers were reduced by giving up their rings. I'm not sure why Sauron would take away a great amount of their power like that? I understand some say that he needed their rings to control them but at that point didn't he already have control?

PS: Has it ever been told how fast Sauron with the one ring could control the other rings of power? My reasoning is this at one point when Sauron first created the master ring shouldn't he pretty much have won the war at that moment?

[Inziladun]

I'm not sure why Sauron would take away a great amount of their power like that? I understand some say that he needed their rings to control them but at that point didn't he already have control?

Sauron did indeed control the Nazgûl totally. I don't see not physically carrying the Nine causing any loss of the Ringwraiths' power, though. Once they entered the wraith-world, the effects on them should be the same as wearing the rings.
Any why would Sauron want them with himself? Safekeeping, maybe. The Nazgûl were capable of being destroyed, and Sauron would not have wanted his rings in unknown hands, especially when he lacked the One.

PS: Has it ever been told how fast Sauron with the one ring could control the other rings of power? My reasoning is this at one point when Sauron first created the master ring shouldn't he pretty much have won the war at that moment?

With the One, Sauron could know the thoughts of the wearers of the other Rings of Power, but I don't think he "controlled" the rings themselves.
The One was tied to the other Rings, but it could only exact its influence on them if they and the One were in active use at the same time.

[Radtech51]

Sauron did indeed control the Nazgûl totally. I don't see not physically carrying the Nine causing any loss of the Ringwraiths' power, though. Once they entered the wraith-world, the effects on them should be the same as wearing the rings.
Any why would Sauron want them with himself? Safekeeping, maybe. The Nazgûl were capable of being destroyed, and Sauron would not have wanted his rings in unknown hands, especially when he lacked the One.

I see and this makes sense to me and I do agree with the logic here. However it does raise another question as to where Sauron could have kept or hidden the rings of power he had kept or captured for safe keeping. He was himself in a type of spirit or wraith form when he was defeated by King Elendil and had to flee to Dol Guldur, the Hill of Sorcery, in southern Mirkwood. How could Sauron have taken the rings of power with him when he had to flee? Then Sauron was eventually driven out of Mirkwood by the White council and again went back to Mordor and rebuilt Barad-dûr. However wouldn't by that time his land have long been plundered and searched? Wouldn't they have found any lost of hidden rings of power long ago?

[Inziladun]

However it does raise another question as to where Sauron could have kept or hidden the rings of power he had kept or captured for safe keeping. He was himself in a type of spirit or wraith form when he was defeated by King Elendil and had to flee to Dol Guldur, the Hill of Sorcery, in southern Mirkwood. How could Sauron have taken the rings of power with him when he had to flee? Then Sauron was eventually driven out of Mirkwood by the White council and again went back to Mordor and rebuilt Barad-dûr. However wouldn't by that time his land have long been plundered and searched? Wouldn't they have found any lost of hidden rings of power long ago?

Good questions, with no certain answers!

Perhaps, with Sauron defeated, the Witch-king, knowing his master would eventually return (since nothing had changed for the WK or his fellow wraiths, regarding their enslavement), took the rings with him into temporary exile in the East.
Then, when Sauron began his re-embodiment in Dol Guldur, the rings were returned by the Nazgûl.

That's my guess, anyway.

[Radtech51]

Good questions, with no certain answers!

Perhaps, with Sauron defeated, the Witch-king, knowing his master would eventually return (since nothing had changed for the WK or his fellow wraiths, regarding their enslavement), took the rings with him into temporary exile in the East.
Then, when Sauron began his re-embodiment in Dol Guldur, the rings were returned by the Nazgûl.

That's my guess, anyway.

That's what I had though as well, however what about this time when he could have easily of lost his own ring: During the time when king Ar-Pharazôn sailed to Middle-earth to combat Sauron, seeing the might of Númenor, Sauron agreed to be the king's captive, and he was brought back to Númenor. What happened to the one ring then? Why didn't king Ar-Pharazôn take the ring from him then when he was captured?

[Inziladun]

During the time when king Ar-Pharazôn sailed to Middle-earth to combat Sauron, seeing the might of Númenor, Sauron agreed to be the king's captive, and he was brought back to Númenor. What happened to the one ring then? Why didn't king Ar-Pharazôn take the ring from him then when he was captured?

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

[Radtech51]

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

I see your point, after all he was a smooth talker form what were told. :D

[jallanite]

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

I doubt that Ar-Pharazôn knew anything of the Ring. His predecessors on the throne had been hostile to the Elves who may alone have known of the great Ring, and even they may not have known the extent of its power. But Ar-Pharazôn had little to do with the Elves, the truth of whose traditions of Manwë and Varda Ar-Pharazôn had grown to largely disbelieve.

Ar-Pharazôn would have attributed Sauron’s power to various sources, including Sauron’s origin as a mighty Maia. Had the Elves attempted to warn Ar-Pharazôn of the Ring, he would have disbelieved them, seeing Sauron, so it seemed, humbled before him and his obedient servant.

[Morthoron]

The One Ring was most likely on Sauron's finger the whole time, or at least somewhere on his person. If you reread the chapter on Galadriel's Mirror, Galadriel's ring, Nenya, was only visible if she chose to reveal it, and then only Frodo saw it plainly (he being a Ringbearer himself), while Sam saw a light but could not discern a ring. Likewise, few even knew Gandalf had a Ring of Power, not even Saruman, who held him in captivity in Orthanc briefly.

Evidently, Ar-Pharazon never noticed it.

[jallanite]

Likewise, few even knew Gandalf had a Ring of Power, not even Saruman, who held him in captivity in Orthanc briefly.
From Unfinished Tales, Part Four, II The Istari:
And the Grey Messenger [Gandalf] took the Ring [from Cirdan], and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger [Saruman] (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.
I am aware that Tolkien added this later and may not then have been considering carefully about whether Saruman knew that Gandalf bore the Red Ring when Gandalf was Saruman’s captive.

[Inziladun]

I am aware that Tolkien added this later and may not then have been considering carefully about whether Saruman knew that Gandalf bore the Red Ring when Gandalf was Saruman’s captive.

Logically, it seems Saruman should have known the dispositions of the Three. After all, he was the head of the White Council, apart from his general knowledge of the Rings of Power.

That brings a question though. Assuming Saruman did know where the Three were, why, by the time of the War of the Ring, did Sauron not have that knowledge?
The latter dominated Saruman through both's use of their palantiri, but maybe Saruman kept that hidden; an example of his dealing against both sides?

[Morthoron]

From Unfinished Tales, Part Four, II The Istari:
And the Grey Messenger [Gandalf] took the Ring [from Cirdan], and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger [Saruman] (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.
I am aware that Tolkien added this later and may not then have been considering carefully about whether Saruman knew that Gandalf bore the Red Ring when Gandalf was Saruman’s captive.

What you offer is a mistake in editing in unpublished material causing an immense plot hole which obviously was not in the published story. Considering Saruman was making his own rings, he certainly would have taken Narya from Gandalf when he had him completely under his power - had he known a Ring of Power was there. Particularly so if, as the later, unpublished material states he had "ill-will" due to the ring. Saruman gaining Narya at Orthanc could very well spell the doom of the West.

The Return of the King contains, in Appendix B, the following:

Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them.

This is bolstered in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in the Silmarillion, where it states:

But the red ring remained hidden until the end, and none save Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan knew to whom it had been committed.

But this is neither here nor there as, per usual, you missed the point I was trying to make entirely.

[blantyr]

What you offer is a mistake in editing in unpublished material causing an immense plot hole which obviously was not in the published story.

I wouldn't think of it an editor's mistake, but a preliminary draft.

I forget which fantasy author told this tale, but one women entered a trivia contest at a science fiction convention where the questions were about the books she had written herself. She lost the contest. Badly. The many writes, rewrites, edits and changes got so confused in her head that her fans -- exposed only to the finished product -- remembered the final released version of her own world better than she did.

I suspect Tolkien knew his world better than most, but he rewrote and fine tuned to no small degree.

[jallanite]

What you offer is a mistake in editing in unpublished material causing an immense plot hole which obviously was not in the published story. Considering Saruman was making his own rings, he certainly would have taken Narya from Gandalf when he had him completely under his power - had he known a Ring of Power was there. Particularly so if, as the later, unpublished material states he had "ill-will" due to the ring. Saruman gaining Narya at Orthanc could very well spell the doom of the West.

Saruman may still have had hope that Gandalf would see reason and join with him. In the chapter “The Council of Elrond″, Elrond said:But they [the three Elvish Rings] were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.
So I see no problem in reconciling Saruman letting Gandalf keep Narya, for the time, with his knowledge that Gandalf possessed it. I see an equally great problem with Saruman not putting Gandalf to death immediately once Saruman had got hold of Gandalf. What was Saruman preserving Gandalf for? Did Saruman perhaps prevision that if Gandalf died, Manwë would send him back? Was Saruman genuine in his hope that Gandalf would ṗerhaps eventually reveal all that he knew of the Ring to Saruman? If as, then better do no more than imprison Gandalf without worrying about Narya.

It is the two quotations that you have presented that state clearly that the secret of who possessed the Three Rings was only known to their possessors which shows conclusively that the quotation I presented from Unfinished Tales does not fit with other material published in Tolkien’s lifetime.

But this is neither here nor there as, per usual, you missed the point I was trying to make entirely.The quotations you presented are not “neither here nor there” but the proof that you are correct.

Of course I did not accept the point you were trying to make because I had forgotten those clear statements.

[Morthoron]

It is the two quotations that you have presented that state clearly that the secret of who possessed the Three Rings was only known to their possessors which shows conclusively that the quotation I presented from Unfinished Tales does not fit with other material published in Tolkien’s lifetime.

I am aware of that, hence my posting them.

Of course I did not accept the point you were trying to make because I had forgotten those clear statements.

Yes, of course. But again the larger point I was making, the one germane to the previous discussion, and the one you took off the beaten path, was the concept that a ringbearer can wear a Ring of Power unobtrusively so that it remains hidden, unless the ringbearer chooses to reveal it or another Ringbearer sees it, as was the case with Galadriel and Frodo, and then with Gandalf at the Gray Havens with Narya.

We can rightly assume that the Rings never left the persons of Galadriel, Gandalf or Elrond, and it is quite probable the same can be said with Sauron in Numenor. With the One Ring hidden (perhaps hidden in plain sight on Sauron's finger), then it was much easier to delude Ar-Pharazon and subjugate the Numenoreans.

The question remains as to why Frodo or Bilbo could not hide the One Ring in such a way as Galadriel did with her ring (or perhaps as Sauron did in Numenor). It is likely that they did not possess the same innate power as the Eldar or Maiar, hence they were not fully able to exploit the power of the One Ring, using it for what amounts to merely "parlor tricks".

P.S. Sauron certainly did have the One Ring in Numenor. In Letter #211 Tolkien states, “He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.” And in Letter #131 Tolkien reiterates that Sauron (now in spirit form) wisked the Ring away from the ruin of Numenor: "I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring [from Numenor], upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended."

[jallanite]

I am aware of that, hence my posting them.

You posted, “But this is neither here nor there …” when it should be the main point. Then you followed it with a gratuitous insult. Now you claim you should not have posted, “But this is neither here nor there …” since you were aware that this was the main point. *Sigh*

We can rightly assume that the Rings never left the persons of Galadriel, Gandalf or Elrond, and it is quite probable the same can be said with Sauron in Numenor.

“Assume” and “probable″ indicates you that what you are saying is to some degree dubious. It is at best only “reasonable”. You can “assume” anything you want. You can even “wongly assume″ things.

The question remains as to why Frodo or Bilbo could not hide the One Ring in such a way as Galadriel did with her ring (or perhaps as Sauron did in Numenor). It is likely that they did not possess the same innate power as the Eldar or Maiar, hence they were not fully able to exploit the power of the One Ring, using it for what amounts to merely "parlor tricks".

The word “likely” is another of those words that indicates that what you are saying has not been established. It at least equally “likely” that hiding the Ring was one of the many powers of the One Ring which Bilbo did not use because he was unaware of them. He thought that the Ring was a Ring of invisibility and nothing more. Frodo only wore the Ring three times for short periods of time and in circumstances where he would not have considered experimenting with it to see what else he could do with it and what he could not do.

It is also just as “likely″ that the Elven Rings were rendered invisible by magic outside of their own power.

This is one of the many points unexplained in The Lord of the Rings. Were the dwarf rings also invisible to those looking at their wearers? Unknown.

In the Milton Waldman letter Tolkien states:
And finally, they [the 16 Rings of Power created by the Elven-smiths of Erebor with Sauron’s help] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
But of the three rings created by the Elves without Sauron’s aid, Tolkien writes: “… they did not confer invisibility″. How this fits with these three Rings being worn by the wearers invisibly is not said.

Perhaps this is another case where material written by Tolkien but not published within The Lord of the Rings should be disregarded. Or perhaps not.

But Tolkien also has Gandalf say in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”:
A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handling it on to someone else’s care—and that only in an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really gone and done it.
But Cirdan, the keeper of one of the Rings of Power, had also handed on his Ring of Power, to Gandalf himself. The best one can do to avoid seeing here a tremendous hole in The Lord of the Rings is to claim that Gandalf was uncharacteristically speaking loosely here and not thinking of the Elven-rings or perhaps even deliberately lying.

There are other dubious things in The Lord of the Rings which do not quite cohere without lots of assumptions being made. But if more than one assumption is possible, then which one actually happened. The most likely one, when one of the assumptions is obviously more likely? But in real history unlikely things often occur.

If Sauron happened to be wearing a visible Ring, or even more than one visible ring, there is no particular reason by Ar-Pharazôn would have considered anything untoward about that. But yes, Sauron might indeed have been wearing the Ring invisibly, but also might not have. The theory you present is quite reasonable, but only as one possible fan fiction that would serve.

[Inziladun]

In the Milton Waldman letter Tolkien states:
And finally, they [the 16 Rings of Power created by the Elven-smiths of Erebor with Sauron’s help] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
But of the three rings created by the Elves without Sauron’s aid, Tolkien writes: “… they did not confer invisibility″. How this fits with these three Rings being worn by the wearers invisibly is not said.


Such topics naturally lend themselves to speculation, so I wanted to throw this out there.
Could the "invisibility" of the Three be connected with the nature of their possessors as Elves, and in Ganadalf's case, as a "divine" creature?

Gandalf explained to Frodo that Glorfindel, having dwelt in the Blessed Realm, existed simultaneously in the "real" world and that of hidden things which the Ringwraiths inhabited. Therefore he was visible to those in either world. The One (and the Nine, and the Seven) put its wearer in the wraith-world. Maybe the Three, not designed to confer invisibility, but still connected to the One, simply displayed an opposite effect when worn by Galadriel and Gandalf. I know this would not apply to Elrond, since he had never set foot in Aman, but we do not know his policy of guarding Vilya. Did he wear it all the time? Keep it in his pocket? Who can say?

It also makes me think of the One vanishing when handled by Bombadil. Was that a momentary glimpse of a similar occurrence?

[Morthoron]

You posted, “But this is neither here nor there …” when it should be the main point. Then you followed it with a gratuitous insult. Now you claim you should not have posted, “But this is neither here nor there …” since you were aware that this was the main point. *Sigh*

You are a trip. There was no "gratuitous insult", you took the discussion off the beaten path. What you were saying was "neither here nor there" with what I was discussing previously: the topic being the Rings of Power being unseen by those who themselves were not Ringbearers. In your haste to be contrary (because attempting to prove me wrong seems to be your current avocation), you decided to throw out a quote from unpublished material that was contrary to published material. I had to waste time finding the appropriate quotes in hopes of going back to the original discussion. Alas, the effort was for naught!

“Assume” and “probable″ indicates you that what you are saying is to some degree dubious. It is at best only “reasonable”. You can “assume” anything you want. You can even “wongly assume″ things.

My, how tedious. Perhaps I should quote extemperaneously from unedited material to bolster my suppositions. :rolleyes:

“ The theory you present is quite reasonable, but only as one possible fan fiction that would serve.

Using the term "fan fiction" certainly will gain you admirers in a debate. I'll remember that next time you whine about insults.

[jallanite]

You are a trip. There was no "gratuitous insult", you took the discussion off the beaten path. What you were saying was "neither here nor there" with what I was discussing previously: the topic being the Rings of Power being unseen by those who themselves were not Ringbearers. In your haste to be contrary (because attempting to prove me wrong seems to be your current avocation), you decided to throw out a quote from unpublished material that was contrary to published material. I had to waste time finding the appropriate quotes in hopes of going back to the original discussion. Alas, the effort was for naught!
Guess so. I see you as trying to prove me wrong. There are lots of interesting discussions that arise from people trying to prove each other wrong. I am quite ready to admit I am wrong as I was in the matter of Saruman knowing of Narya in the published Lord of the Rings.

Possibly you intended no insult. It does not so read to me: “per usual, you missed the point I was trying to make entirely.” Your points are sometimes actually wrong, as are mine, but I don’t think that either of use are wrong per usual.

My, how tedious. Perhaps I should quote extemperaneously from unedited material to bolster my suppositions. :rolleyes:
Perhaps you should. I try not to believe in any set of suppositions when there are other equally possible explanations. I can entertain various contradictory explanations simultaneously without believing any of them.

Using the term "fan fiction" certainly will gain you admirers in a debate. I'll remember that next time you whine about insults.

I was not aware that “fan fiction” was an insult. Do you then consider that your imaginative account of Sauron with an invisible ring was not fan fiction? Then what was it? I admitted quite readily that your fan fiction was quite possible. My suggestion that the ring was visible and Ar-Pharazôn just didn’t think anything of it was also fan fiction if that matters.

I think it best that I put you on my ignore list as you seem determined that anything I post is wrong, which indeed it sometimes is, but not so often as you seem to believe.

[Morthoron]

I think it best that I put you on my ignore list...

Good idea. I was going to suggest the same.

[Radtech51]

Such topics naturally lend themselves to speculation, so I wanted to throw this out there.
Could the "invisibility" of the Three be connected with the nature of their possessors as Elves, and in Ganadalf's case, as a "divine" creature?

Gandalf explained to Frodo that Glorfindel, having dwelt in the Blessed Realm, existed simultaneously in the "real" world and that of hidden things which the Ringwraiths inhabited. Therefore he was visible to those in either world. The One (and the Nine, and the Seven) put its wearer in the wraith-world. Maybe the Three, not designed to confer invisibility, but still connected to the One, simply displayed an opposite effect when worn by Galadriel and Gandalf. I know this would not apply to Elrond, since he had never set foot in Aman, but we do not know his policy of guarding Vilya. Did he wear it all the time? Keep it in his pocket? Who can say?

It also makes me think of the One vanishing when handled by Bombadil. Was that a momentary glimpse of a similar occurrence?

Interesting idea but how does this fit into the end of the Lord of the Rings story when Frodo could plainly see now all three rings of power? I got the impression that Frodo could see them because they were void of power?

[Radtech51]

It is also just as “likely″ that the Elven Rings were rendered invisible by magic outside of their own power.

This is one of the many points unexplained in The Lord of the Rings. Were the dwarf rings also invisible to those looking at their wearers? Unknown.

In the Milton Waldman letter Tolkien states:
And finally, they [the 16 Rings of Power created by the Elven-smiths of Erebor with Sauron’s help] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible.
But of the three rings created by the Elves without Sauron’s aid, Tolkien writes: “… they did not confer invisibility″. How this fits with these three Rings being worn by the wearers invisibly is not said.

Perhaps this is another case where material written by Tolkien but not published within The Lord of the Rings should be disregarded. Or perhaps not.

-----------
I personaly don't find it hard to believe that the three rings of power shared some simular powers of the one ring like invisibility. After all when the one Ring was destroyed the three rings of power were lost as well even though Galadriel didn't know for sure if that would happen.
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But Tolkien also has Gandalf say in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”:
A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handling it on to someone else’s care—and that only in an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really gone and done it.
But Cirdan, the keeper of one of the Rings of Power, had also handed on his Ring of Power, to Gandalf himself. The best one can do to avoid seeing here a tremendous hole in The Lord of the Rings is to claim that Gandalf was uncharacteristically speaking loosely here and not thinking of the Elven-rings or perhaps even deliberately lying.

------
Which raises another question, why did then one of the Dwarfs give up their rings of power? It's true that the rings of power didn't have the same hold on the Dwarfs as they did on others.
------

If Sauron happened to be wearing a visible Ring, or even more than one visible ring, there is no particular reason by Ar-Pharazôn would have considered anything untoward about that. But yes, Sauron might indeed have been wearing the Ring invisibly, but also might not have. The theory you present is quite reasonable, but only as one possible fan fiction that would serve.

------
You bring up an excellent point, If the rings of power could be commanded to only only be seen by the wielder or other wielders of rings of power then Ar-Pharazon would not have been able to see Sauron's ring.
------

[Radtech51]

Saruman may still have had hope that Gandalf would see reason and join with him. In the chapter “The Council of Elrond″, Elrond said:But they [the three Elvish Rings] were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making, and healing, to preserve all things unstained.
So I see no problem in reconciling Saruman letting Gandalf keep Narya, for the time, with his knowledge that Gandalf possessed it. I see an equally great problem with Saruman not putting Gandalf to death immediately once Saruman had got hold of Gandalf. What was Saruman preserving Gandalf for? Did Saruman perhaps prevision that if Gandalf died, Manwë would send him back? Was Saruman genuine in his hope that Gandalf would ṗerhaps eventually reveal all that he knew of the Ring to Saruman? If as, then better do no more than imprison Gandalf without worrying about Narya.


I tend to agree with you on this idea, if Saruman did manage to get the ring from Gandolf I am not convinced he could put it too much use if any for war. If might have added him in finding his missing pieces of the puzzle and thereby allowing him create his own master ring.

PS: As for Saruman not killing Gandolf when he had the chance, that may have been his biggest mistake or downfall. I have now doubt Saruman upon reflection wished he had done so.

[Radtech51]

P.S. Sauron certainly did have the One Ring in Numenor. In Letter #211 Tolkien states, “He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.” And in Letter #131 Tolkien reiterates that Sauron (now in spirit form) wisked the Ring away from the ruin of Numenor: "I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring [from Numenor], upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended."

Very interesting, I had thought that only Sauron's physical form was damaged? I did not know that Sauron was in spirit form when he left the ruin in Numenor. If he was able to pick up his master ring in spirit form why did he not do this again when he lost the ring for the 2nd time?

[Inziladun]

Interesting idea but how does this fit into the end of the Lord of the Rings story when Frodo could plainly see now all three rings of power? I got the impression that Frodo could see them because they were void of power?

In Lórien Galadriel pretty clearly intimates that Frodo is mainly able to see Nenya because he was a Ring-bearer. Also, he had been wounded by the Witch-king's knife, which had basically put Frodo on the border of the real and the shadow worlds. Is it notable there that none of the other hobbits mention the Three?

Very interesting, I had thought that only Sauron's physical form was damaged? I did not know that Sauron was in spirit form when he left the ruin in Numenor. If he was able to pick up his master ring in spirit form why did he not do this again when he lost the ring for the 2nd time?

The circumstances were different.
At the destruction of Númenor, Sauron's body was indeed destroyed, and his spirit went back over Sea to Middle-earth. The spirit itself was undamaged. There is no knowing how quickly he was then able to reincarnate, but I suspect it was rather rapid.

At the end of the Second Age, when the One was cut from Sauron's finger, his "inner" self was injured by the loss of the Ring; it was taken from him physically, and that greatly weakened him, so that he it was all he could do to escape and seek a place where he could recuperate, gradually building up enough will and power to re-embody.

[Radtech51]

In Lórien Galadriel pretty clearly intimates that Frodo is mainly able to see Nenya because he was a Ring-bearer. Also, he had been wounded by the Witch-king's knife, which had basically put Frodo on the border of the real and the shadow worlds. Is it notable there that none of the other hobbits mention the Three?

------
Reply: You make an excellent point, but however if the three rings were void of power at this time wouldn't anyone be able to see them?
------

The circumstances were different.
At the destruction of Númenor, Sauron's body was indeed destroyed, and his spirit went back over Sea to Middle-earth. The spirit itself was undamaged. There is no knowing how quickly he was then able to reincarnate, but I suspect it was rather rapid.

At the end of the Second Age, when the One was cut from Sauron's finger, his "inner" self was injured by the loss of the Ring; it was taken from him physically, and that greatly weakened him, so that he it was all he could do to escape and seek a place where he could recuperate, gradually building up enough will and power to re-embody.

That makes sense, thanks for your insight on this my friend. ;)

[blantyr]

In Lórien Galadriel pretty clearly intimates that Frodo is mainly able to see Nenya because he was a Ring-bearer. Also, he had been wounded by the Witch-king's knife, which had basically put Frodo on the border of the real and the shadow worlds. Is it notable there that none of the other hobbits mention the Three?

Frodo was a ring-bearer and also one who had seen the Eye. Galadriel mentioned seeing the Eye, which might be important. Also, Galadriel had just used Nenya to create the illusion of a mighty queen. It was only after that minor bit of theatrical magic that Frodo spotted her ring.

Galadriel asked Sam whether he had seen her ring, and he responded no, he had seen a star shining through her finger. She also mentioned that Elrond had not been permitted to speak of it, meaning, I think, speak of the three rings. This seems to me like an unnecessary leak to Frodo and Sam of where another of the Three was.

At the time, the third ring was in Moria. Galadriel might have been the only one who fully realized what that meant. Thus, she sent the eagle to look for Gandalf.

I also note that when one makes a magic item in Tolkien's world, one is putting a bit of one's own strength into the item. If wizard staves have significant power, Galadriel's making a new staff for Gandalf might have been more of a big deal than many realize.

[Puddleglum]

but however if the three rings were void of power at this time wouldn't anyone be able to see them?But the rings weren't devoid of power at that time (when the Fellowship was in Lorien).

They lost their power only when the ONE was unmade. We're not told whether everyone could see the rings after that (except, perhaps, the reference to Gandalf wearing the third ring when he is met at Mithlond to take ship West at the end - tho it is not said explictly that all could "see" it, only that he had it), but that could simply be because the chroniclers saw no need to comment on three characters wearing rings.

The Rings were generally not talked about (especially among men who mostly wouldn't even know about them). In fact, to most people a ring on Elrond's or Galadriel's finger (even if they COULD see it) would be nothing special, either to notice or comment on: just a ring, a piece of jewelry, much like what many other Lords and princes may have worn as a matter of course. The kind of thing one can see but not "see" (unless you are an "observer" - like Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot or Ellery Queen or Adrian Monk ;)).

[Radtech51]

But the rings weren't devoid of power at that time (when the Fellowship was in Lorien).

They lost their power only when the ONE was unmade. We're not told whether everyone could see the rings after that (except, perhaps, the reference to Gandalf wearing the third ring when he is met at Mithlond to take ship West at the end - tho it is not said explictly that all could "see" it, only that he had it), but that could simply be because the chroniclers saw no need to comment on three characters wearing rings.

The Rings were generally not talked about (especially among men who mostly wouldn't even know about them). In fact, to most people a ring on Elrond's or Galadriel's finger (even if they COULD see it) would be nothing special, either to notice or comment on: just a ring, a piece of jewelry, much like what many other Lords and princes may have worn as a matter of course. The kind of thing one can see but not "see" (unless you are an "observer" - like Sherlock Holmes or Hercule Poirot or Ellery Queen or Adrian Monk ;)).

Thanks for the information but I was referring to the end of the book when Frodo could see all three rings. I'll assume everyone could have seen them because they were all void of power at that time? Unless the three kept some small amount of power since Sauron never had anything to do with them?

[Puddleglum]

Thanks for the information but I was referring to the end of the book when Frodo could see all three rings. I'll assume everyone could have seen them because they were all void of power at that time? Unless the three kept some small amount of power since Sauron never had anything to do with them?Ah, right. I see now. So many intertwined treads of thought in this topic I got confused. Sorry about that.

To address your thoughts about the Rings at Mithlond...

I'm only speculating here, but I wonder how much of the hiding of the rings is an innate, automatic function of the rings themselves (ie, go on finger = go invisible) and how much is an Art of the wearers (Elves & Maia) used to aid in keeping the secret.

We already know (from "many Partings" in RoTK) that Elves and Maia can communicate without talking, by their thoughts flashing back and forth between them (similar to what we might call telepathy) so it seems feasible that they might have an art or way for diverting peoples "NOTICE" from things like their ring.

For example, in Lorien when Frodo saw the Ring and Galadriel asks Sam "Did you see my ring?", Sam's response isn't a confused "WHAT ring? You don't have a ring. I can see your hand and there isn't any ring on it." Rather it was a simple "no, I didn't" - suggesting that, perhaps, once Galadirel mentioned it he "could" see it (at least physically see it, he still may not have comprehended what it really was).

Which raises at least a <possibility> that, at the end, in Mithlond, the Rings could be seen - less because of their being shorn of power, than because there was no longer any reason for their wearers to try and KEEP them hidden from the notice or awareness of other beings.
And, even so, to some (like Merry & Pippen) the presence of a Ring on an Elven Lord's (or Gandalf's) fnger would be no big deal - whether it were (or had been) a ring of power or not. "Nobles wear rings, big deal" could have been as far as the thought would go. Especially since the **BIG** deal at that time was that Frodo was going away - for good.
Frodo, being a ringbearer, was more likely to be sensitive to the presence of such little things as "rings". Much like a person who was once traumatized by a man with a mole on his left cheek, might thereafter be far more like than other people to notice men who happen to have moles on their left cheek.

Again, this is just a speculation. It "seems" reasonable and feasible to me, and it "might" be close to the truth - but then again it might not be.

[Inziladun]

You make an excellent point, but however if the three rings were void of power at this time wouldn't anyone be able to see them?

An argument against that is the fact that in all the time the bearers of the Three were with the hobbits in Minas Tirith after Sauron's fall, and on the road back to the North, there is no mention of anyone seeing the Rings, but again, Frodo.

....the grey-cloaked people of Lórien rode towards the mountains; and those who were going to Rivendell sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell. LOTR Many Partings

If the Three were visible at that time due to the loss of the One, surely it wouldn't have been only Frodo to recognize the source of the "flash" from Galadriel.

The idea that the Three were not constantly worn by the bearers, either before or after Sauron's fall, would to me explain much.

x/d with Puddleglum

[Puddleglum]

An argument against that is the fact that in all the time the bearers of the Three were with the hobbits in Minas Tirith after Sauron's fall, and on the road back to the North, there is no mention of anyone seeing the Rings, but again, Frodo.
If the Three were visible at that time due to the loss of the One, surely it wouldn't have been only Frodo to recognize the source of the "flash" from Galadriel.Possibly. But then, too, weren't the only times when her ring was *ever* mentioned after the Fall when the narrative (or her actions) specifically brought it up: when she holds it up in farewell (partings) and when all three rings pass away to the West (Havens)? Only two times (did I miss any?). I'm not sure I'd put too much meaning on the fact that in the two cases (a small sample-size), only Frodo (the primary source of record for those events - where he was eyewitness) is explicitly highlighted as seeing.

Especially since he doesn't (in these reports) say no one else DID see or understand - only stays silent on the point. And, we can be fairly certain that Gandalf & Elrond (who were present in each case) "could" see Galadriel's ring (being ring wearers themselves) - AND understand that the flash was her holding up the ring. Yet, that is also not mentioned in the record.

Frodo, as the author of this part of the record, and an eye-witness to the events in it, could well have felt no particular need to give a complete list of who else could and could not see the ring, or understand the flash. His mind was on other things.


BTW (and my apologies for not knowing this) but - what does "x/d" signify. I know lol, rotfl, gtr, imo, and so on - but (sadly) not x/d ???

[Inziladun]

Possibly. But then, too, weren't the only times when her ring was *ever* mentioned after the Fall when the narrative (or her actions) specifically brought it up: when she holds it up in farewell (partings) and when all three rings pass away to the West (Havens)? I'm not sure I'd put too much meaning on the lack of reference to it.

I know there's nothing definite. It just strikes me that only Frodo is ever mentioned as seeing the Three.

BTW (and my apologies for not knowing this) but - what does "x/d" signify. I know lol, rotfl, gtr, imo, and so on mean - but (sadly) not x/d ???

It just indicates a cross-post with someone else.

[Radtech51]

....the grey-cloaked people of Lórien rode towards the mountains; and those who were going to Rivendell sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell.

I had always thought that the three rings of power were slowly loosing their power over time once the one ring was destroyed but not all at once. I had thought that Galadriel's final display of power from her ring of power to Frodo was a parting reminder to him about their talk and about the rings of power coming to and end.

[jallanite]

I had always thought that the three rings of power were slowly loosing their power over time once the one ring was destroyed but not all at once. I had thought that Galadriel's final display of power from her ring of power to Frodo was a parting reminder to him about their talk and about the rings of power coming to and end.

This is one of the many puzzlements in The Lord of the Rings. At that time Frodo is unaware that Elrond and Gandalf were bearers of two of the three Elven-rings and presumably only knows that Galadriel is a ring-bearer, yet the text says:
But at length all was said, and they parted again for a while, until it was time for the Three Rings to pass away.
Of course since Frodo later knows to set out with Sam to meet with Galadriel and Elrond on September 21st of the year 1421 Shire Reckoning, he presumably has received messages from the Elves about their planned return over the Seas and learned that Bilbo is to go with them, and he himself may go with them if he wishes, and that to Sam also permission is given to at last depart. It may well be that among these communications Frodo had been informed that Elrond and Gandalf were bearers of two of the Elven-rings but that he had not explicitly said so in his writing. It is only explicitly said so in the last pages of The Lord of the Rings which must be derived from Sam’s writing.

Then of course Tolkien is to be imagined as himself retelling the story in the third person, at which point the phase “until it was time for the Three rings to pass away” may be understood to have entered the tale.

When and at what point the three Elven-rings lost all their power is not told. Indeed, they may still have some power in them again when last seen. The story does not tell, just as it does not tell whether they may not have become completely powerless immediately upon the destruction of the One Ring.

[Puddleglum]

At that time Frodo is unaware that Elrond and Gandalf were bearers of two of the three Elven-ringsWell, we don't actually even "know" that. The record that became LOTR was, ostensibly, written by the Hobbits (primarily Frodo) and it doesn't explicitly "mention" the location of the other two rings before this, but the record wasn't essentially ABOUT the location of the three rings and there would have been no driving reason for Frodo to report it even if he had known (as interesting as it may have been to *US* to read it ;) ).

So, maybe he did know, maybe he didn't.

My personal belief is that he "did" know. But that's only because he had become professionally aware of Rings (as a ring-bearer and having seen one of the rings earlier) and so would be more likely than most people (like Merry or Pippin) to "connect the dots" and conclude that "that Blue stoned ring on Elrond's hand may well be one of the Three", etc.

[blantyr]

My personal belief is that he "did" know. But that's only because he had become professionally aware of Rings (as a ring-bearer and having seen one of the rings earlier) and so would be more likely than most people (like Merry or Pippin) to "connect the dots" and conclude that "that Blue stoned ring on Elrond's hand may well be one of the Three", etc.

You know, with 20 20 hindsight, who else could have had the three rings? :Merisu:

[jallanite]

The quotation Puddleglum correctly attributes to me applies to the period when Puddleglum’s explanation was unlikely to have happened, just before the final separation of Galadriel and Celeborn and their followers from Frodo and his party when from what we are told none of the three bearers of Elvish rings then bore them openly, though Galadriel produced a glow from her ring from a distance.

My personal belief is that he "did" know. But that's only because he had become professionally aware of Rings (as a ring-bearer and having seen one of the rings earlier) and so would be more likely than most people (like Merry or Pippin) to "connect the dots" and conclude that "that Blue stoned ring on Elrond's hand may well be one of the Three", etc.

Frodo is shown at the end of the Lord of the Rings to have learned much information whose source is not given: the exact date that Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf and Bilbo will be passing through the Shire, and that Frodo may join them in their journey to the west if he wishes, and that the same opportunity will eventually be given to Sam.

I see no sign that Frodo knows at the point where Galadriel departs that Elrond and Gandalf also bore rings. Possibly he is merely being discrete in not including what was then a secret in the Red Book. Possibly Frodo later learned it from whatever sources informed him of the exact time when Bilbo, Galadriel, and Elrond would be passing through the Shire on their way to the west, and that he might go with them if he wished, and that to Sam also the same choice would be given eventually. Possibly Frodo learned of the disposition of the Three Elven-rings from Elrond or Galadriel or Bilbo on his journey west.

You know, with 20 20 hindsight, who else could have had the three rings? :Merisu:

With 20 20 hindsight, of course the right answer would emerge. But the story as told allows the possibility that Cirdan, Glorfindel, or Celeborn might have been bearers of Elven-rings. Or possibly some other elves of whom we have not been told. Note that we are only told the last of the Elven-rings bore a red stone and was a ring of fire at the same time that we are told that Gandalf had born it.

[Radtech51]

The quotation Puddleglum correctly attributes to me applies to the period when Puddleglum’s explanation was unlikely to have happened, just before the final separation of Galadriel and Celeborn and their followers from Frodo and his party when from what we are told none of the three bearers of Elvish rings then bore them openly, though Galadriel produced a glow from her ring from a distance.



Frodo is shown at the end of the Lord of the Rings to have learned much information whose source is not given: the exact date that Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf and Bilbo will be passing through the Shire, and that Frodo may join them in their journey to the west if he wishes, and that the same opportunity will eventually be given to Sam.

I see no sign that Frodo knows at the point where Galadriel departs that Elrond and Gandalf also bore rings. Possibly he is merely being discrete in not including what was then a secret in the Red Book. Possibly Frodo later learned it from whatever sources informed him of the exact time when Bilbo, Galadriel, and Elrond would be passing through the Shire on their way to the west, and that he might go with them if he wished, and that to Sam also the same choice would be given eventually. Possibly Frodo learned of the disposition of the Three Elven-rings from Elrond or Galadriel or Bilbo on his journey west.



With 20 20 hindsight, of course the right answer would emerge. But the story as told allows the possibility that Cirdan, Glorfindel, or Celeborn might have been bearers of Elven-rings. Or possibly some other elves of whom we have not been told. Note that we are only told the last of the Elven-rings bore a red stone and was a ring of fire at the same time that we are told that Gandalf had born it.

I thought of another way one could interpret this ending. It could be that the three rings of power were no longer needed to be hidden or kept as a secret especially now that they're about to be taken away forever from middle earth? Perhaps they all wielded them openly now in the end to symbolize the point of no more fear or secrets concerning the rings of power and that this time the war of the rings has come to an end?

[Inziladun]

I had always thought that the three rings of power were slowly loosing their power over time once the one ring was destroyed but not all at once. I had thought that Galadriel's final display of power from her ring of power to Frodo was a parting reminder to him about their talk and about the rings of power coming to and end.

To me, it makes more sense that the Three immediately became powerless upon the loss of the One.
They were "tied" to it after all; there was no delineation made between the influence of the One upon the Three, and that it exerted upon the wearers of the Nine and the Seven. With the One, Sauron could know and govern the thoughts of all of them.
When the One was destroyed, immediate effects were observed. Sauron's spirit was irreparably maimed, Barad-dûr, made with the One, collapsed, and the Nazgûl fell from the sky in ruin. Since those events were not gradual, why would the Three's fading be any different?

[Puddleglum]

The quotation Puddleglum correctly attributes to me applies to the period when Puddleglum’s explanation was unlikely to have happened, just before the final separation of Galadriel and Celeborn and their followers from Frodo and his party when from what we are told none of the three bearers of Elvish rings then bore them openly, though Galadriel produced a glow from her ring from a distance.But the text DOESN'T tell us that at that time.

Except for the statement of Galadriel's farewell flash, the text at this time doesn't tell us ANYTHING about whether the rings were worn on hands, were visible or invisible, were locked in luggage or attached to chains of flashing, multi-colored lights (ok, I'm being silly with that last option). Since the text doesn't tell us, we don't know - we can only speculate.

We know that prior to the destruction of the One they were not worn openly - but as Galadriel wore hers in Lorien without Sam realizing she even HAD a ring this "not worn openly" doesn't necessarily mean "not worn".

But we don't explicitly know whether, AFTER destruction of the One, they continued to "not wear openly", or whether it was now a moot point and they "could" wear them openly.

Either are fair speculations. My only objection was what appeared to be an absolute statement that Frodo "WAS unaware" about Elrond & Galadriel.
He "might" have been unaware, or he "might" have known by then. After all, he spent a lot of time with Gandalf in Minas Tirith from mid-April to MidSummer (Unfinished Tales tells us they shared a house), and he reasonably could also have spent time with Elrond as well.

My "explaination" (or reason for why I thought what I did) was based upon

Frodo's long, intimate connection with Rings of Power - which predated the flash from Galadriel's ring at the parting.
Frodo's having spent time with Gandalf in Minas Tirith (and having at least the opportunity to spend time with Elrond there as well) - which also predates the parting flash from Galadriel.

So, while my speculation may be either right or wrong, I do think it is predicated upon conditions as they were at the time referenced (the parting near Moria).

[Radtech51]

To me, it makes more sense that the Three immediately became powerless upon the loss of the One.
They were "tied" to it after all; there was no delineation made between the influence of the One upon the Three, and that it exerted upon the wearers of the Nine and the Seven. With the One, Sauron could know and govern the thoughts of all of them.
When the One was destroyed, immediate effects were observed. Sauron's spirit was irreparably maimed, Barad-dûr, made with the One, collapsed, and the Nazgûl fell from the sky in ruin. Since those events were not gradual, why would the Three's fading be any different?

You might be right about the Three immediately becoming powerless after the one ring was destroyed, however if they were then how did Galadriel create that last parting flash of light from her ring in display to Frodo? It's true she was a powerful sorceress of sorts so I suppose creating a flash of light would not prove to difficult for her, but still it makes you wonder.

[Inziladun]

You might be right about the Three immediately becoming powerless after the one ring was destroyed, however if they were then how did Galadriel create that last parting flash of light from her ring in display to Frodo? It's true she was a powerful sorceress of sorts so I suppose creating a flash of light would not prove to difficult for her, but still it makes you wonder.

At the time of the parting of the hobbits and Gandalf from Galadriel et al, the group had been camped on a "low hill" within sight of the Mountains of Moria, so there was high ground in the area.

Quickly fading into the stones and the shadows the grey-cloaked people of Lórien rode towards the mountains; and those who were going to Rivendell sat on the hill and watched, until there came out of the gathering mist a flash; and then they saw no more. Frodo knew that Galadriel had held aloft her ring in token of farewell.

The description of the lighting as producing "shadows", added to the "gathering mist", makes it possible in my mind that it was sunset. Maybe Galadriel simply held up Nenya, upon which a last glint of sunlight lit.

[Radtech51]

I recently came across a part in the Lord of the Rings during the council meeting in Rivendale where it was specifically stated that the (Nine) rings of power the Ring Wraiths Keep. Perhaps it wasn't known that Sauron took the Nine from them?

[Inziladun]

I recently came across a part in the Lord of the Rings during the council meeting in Rivendale where it was specifically stated that the (Nine) rings of power the Ring Wraiths Keep. Perhaps it wasn't known that Sauron took the Nine from them?

Indeed that was spoken by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond. An explanation could be either that Gandalf simply didn't know everything, or that Saruman knew Sauron had kept the Nine, and for his own reasons had sought to hide the truth from the White Council, lying to them.

[jallanite]

The sentence spoken at the Council of Elrond is precisely:The Nine the Nazgûl keep.
Given the many other passages by Tolkien in which Sauron himself possesses the Nine, it would seem that Tolkien, as he often does, is using inversion here. The sentence has “The Nine” as its subject. What do “the Nine” do? They “keep”. What then do the nine Rings keep? They keep the Nazgûl in line for Sauron.

The sentence would be translated into normal modern word order as “The Nine keep the Nazgûl.”

Christopher Tolkien unfortunately does not cover Gandalf’s explanation in the HoME volumes, as least so far as I have found. So HoME sheds no light on this sentence.

That is the only explanation that I have discovered. I read this suggestion years ago in some fanzine. Tolkien, more used to including inversions in the words of his speakers then most modern readers, might not have noticed that this sentence is ambiguous, especially since he would already know what he meant by it.

[Inziladun]

The sentence spoken at the Council of Elrond is precisely:The Nine the Nazgûl keep.
Given the many other passages by Tolkien in which Sauron himself possesses the Nine, it would seem that Tolkien, as he often does, is using inversion here. The sentence has “The Nine” as its subject. What do “the Nine” do? They “keep”. What then do the nine Rings keep? They keep the Nazgûl in line for Sauron.

The sentence would be translated into normal modern word order as “The Nine keep the Nazgûl.”

Christopher Tolkien unfortunately does not cover Gandalf’s explanation in the HoME volumes, as least so far as I have found. So HoME sheds no light on this sentence.

That is the only explanation that I have discovered. I read this suggestion years ago in some fanzine. Tolkien, more used to including inversions in the words of his speakers then most modern readers, might not have noticed that this sentence is ambiguous, especially since he would already know what he meant by it.

The Professor did indeed use inverted, and sometimes archaic sentence structures at times (one of the things I enjoy about his writing). In this case though, I don't think that's the explanation.
In the relevant passage, Gandalf is speaking to the Council of Elrond about the dispositions of the Rings of Power, not the effects on their wearers. So it appears that Gandalf indeed is saying the Nazgûl had possession of their Nine Rings.
Whether that was merely a slip by Tolkien is conjectural, but I think my Saruman explanation is at least possible.

[jallanite]

From The Fellowship of the Ring, book II, chapter 2:So it is now: the Nine he [Sauron] has gathered to himself; …
This goes back to Tolkien’s earliest drafts. From The Return of the Shadow, (HoME 6), page 78:Men had three rings, and others they found in secret places cast away by the elf-wraiths: and men-wraiths are servants of the Lord, and they brought all their rings back to him [Sauron]; …
Later Tolkien discarded the idea of elf-wraiths and had nine rings, not three only, given directly by Sauron to Men. But the idea remains that the Men who had been turned into wraiths by the Rings brought their Rings to Sauron.

From The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, chapter 7, three paragraphs from the end:You [Frodo] saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.
From letter 246 in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien:… they [the Nazgûl] would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his [Sauron’s] that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control over their wills.
This shows what Tolkien considered to be the truth about who actually held the rings.

Your explanations don’t explain why Gandalf at the Council of Elrond has changed his account from what he had earlier told Frodo or why Galadriel’s account agrees with this earlier account, both of which agree with Tolkien’s account in letter 246. Either of your explanations are possible but are very incomplete.

My explanation is also conjectural but at least complete and requires no extra untold explanation about Saruman, which in any case does not explain why neither Gandalf (when explaining to Bilbo) and later Galadriel do not mention the Saruman explanation which is indeed only your own invention.

You might as well invent that Gandalf’s thought processes at the moment were being interfered with by his own ring through which he could access some of Sauron’s thoughts.

Your Saruman explanation requires that Gandalf rejects Saruman’s explanation when talking with Frodo. Presumably Gandalf must have some reason for saying what he does other that his general distrust of Saruman, because at point Gandalf still generally trusts Saruman. Only after he has personally learned that Saruman has betrayed the Council does Gandalf, according to you, put forth a different account of the fate of the Nine, which you suggest came from Saruman. This explanation raises more problems than it solves.

[Inziladun]

Your explanations don’t explain why Gandalf at the Council of Elrond has changed his account from what he had earlier told Frodo or why Galadriel’s account agrees with this earlier account, both of which agree with Tolkien’s account in letter 246. Either of your explanations are possible but are very incomplete.

In case I wasn't clear, my belief is that Sauron indeed did hold the Nine Rings.

My explanation is also conjectural but at least complete and requires no extra untold explanation about Saruman, which in any case does not explain why neither Gandalf (when explaining to Bilbo) and later Galadriel do not mention the Saruman explanation which is indeed only your own invention.

Your idea would require a puzzling change of subject in Gandalf's words: moving from discussion of what happened to the other Rings of Power to the specific effect of the Nine on the Nazgûl. I see no reason for that abrupt shift.

Your Saruman explanation requires that Gandalf rejects Saruman’s explanation when talking with Frodo. Presumably Gandalf must have some reason for saying what he does other that his general distrust of Saruman, because at point Gandalf still generally trusts Saruman. Only after he has personally learned that Saruman has betrayed the Council does Gandalf, according to you, put forth a different account of the fate of the Nine, which you suggest came from Saruman. This explanation raises more problems than it solves.

I never said it was anything more than a possibility. The most likely explanation is probably that it was merely a slip by Tolkien; a piece of earlier, rejected thoughts that inadvertently slipped into the final text. I was simply looking for something in-world that would explain it.

[jallanite]

Your idea would require a puzzling change of subject in Gandalf's words: moving from discussion of what happened to the other Rings of Power to the specific effect of the Nine on the Nazgûl. I see no reason for that abrupt shift.

I agree. The theory takes the sentence to be an inversion of an already inverted sentence. The sentence reads very awkwardly if interpreted by this theory, more so, I think, than any other sentence written by Tolkien, none of which calls for a supposed re-interpretation which reverses what Tolkien seems to write.

The most likely explanation is probably that it was merely a slip by Tolkien; a piece of earlier, rejected thoughts that inadvertently slipped into the final text. I was simply looking for something in-world that would explain it.

I agree here also. The sentence can be interpreted according to the theory, which might explain why Tolkien never noticed his miswriting. (If so, then that possible misinterpretation perhaps becomes the real interpretation, if it were Tolkien’s interpretation, Tolkien knowing what the sentence ought to mean.)

Unfortunately your former in-world explanation causes still more difficulties, which is why I don’t accept it as a valid in-world explanation.

I don’t recall who came up with this interpretation many years ago. Its sole advantage is that it works perfectly, if the reader is willing to accept that Gandalf is here speaking in an unusually awkward way. Perhaps that is easier to accept than that Gandalf is here simply wrong about something he was right about a few months back when explaining the fate of the rings to Frodo. One might also accept that Gandalf is here making a slip of his tongue such as people often do in real life. But in books generally speakers do not make casual slips of the tongue, except when they are supposed to be noticeably mentally disturbed to some extent which is not the case with Gandalf here.

[Morthoron]

The Professor did indeed use inverted, and sometimes archaic sentence structures at times (one of the things I enjoy about his writing). In this case though, I don't think that's the explanation.
In the relevant passage, Gandalf is speaking to the Council of Elrond about the dispositions of the Rings of Power, not the effects on their wearers. So it appears that Gandalf indeed is saying the Nazgûl had possession of their Nine Rings.
Whether that was merely a slip by Tolkien is conjectural, but I think my Saruman explanation is at least possible.

Another even simpler explanation is that Gandalf was not infallible. Perhaps at the time, he believed the Nazgûl kept the Nine. The story, as we know in hindsight, is told through the literary deceit of Hobbitish retelling. It would be nigh impossible for Gandalf to know that Sauron kept the Nine. How would he know beyond a shadow of a doubt? How could it be proved? I don't believe Sauron advertised the fact, and the Nazgûl were certainly not chatty sorts either.

Of the three Gandalf had direct, personal knowledge, of the seven there was anecdotal evidence supporting the idea that Sauron had taken three back (one of these was certainly worn by Thrain II, imprisoned by the Necromancer/Sauron), but the other four were supposedly consumed by dragons.

To say that by inversion the sentence "The nine the Nazgûl keep" means anything other than it implies makes little sense, particularly since Gandalf is presenting his knowledge to the Council of Elrond, where such ambiguity would be counterintuitive. The inversion is for emphasis on the nine, as Gandalf relates the whereabouts of each ring. It is far more ominous using a heightened and alliterative "The nine the Nazgûl keep", than the modern "The Nazgûl keep the nine." There is poetic symmetry in the former and not in the latter.

If Gandalf knew at the time that Sauron held the nine, he would just say so, as he did with the the few of the seven the Dark Lord held.

[Galin]

The One Ring was most likely on Sauron's finger the whole time, or at least somewhere on his person.

I agree.

If you reread the chapter on Galadriel's Mirror, Galadriel's ring, Nenya, was only visible if she chose to reveal it, and then only Frodo saw it plainly (he being a Ringbearer himself), while Sam saw a light but could not discern a ring.

What do you think of the interpretation that Sam saw Nenya (as in its light) but did not understand what it was, as Frodo did. Sam saw 'something' but earlier he was greatly upset by his vision, didn't want to see any more magic, and a bit later wished Galadriel would take the One and stop 'them digging up the gaffer' and so on (revealing, I think, where his mind and attention was still focused).

I admit the scene at Galadriel's mirror is suggestive of invisibility, but why should the Mirdain or Celebrimbor care to work in the power of invisibility only so that the Rings themselves could be made invisible, and yet not the wearers, and before Sauron's plan was revealed? Why go only that far, considering that if 'invisibility power' were even part of the scenario, the Three were the most powerful of the Elven Rings in any event (though preservation power was admittedly key with these).

Likewise, few even knew Gandalf had a Ring of Power, not even Saruman, who held him in captivity in Orthanc briefly.

I had not considered this before, which does raise the question of why Saruman did not discover Narya at this point if it was visible. But one does not necessarily search for something that isn't suspected in the first place, and Saruman's wrath may have been focused on keeping Gandalf prisoner... a fairly major step to have taken, as it was, and I'm not sure it's noted that he even took away Gandalf's staff.

It's interesting perhaps, that for the revised edition Tolkien added (The Grey Havens, second edition of the 1960s) that Gandalf now openly wore Narya. Of course that could refer to some kind of magic, or that he wore it now in plain view on his finger.

If the latter, this might mean that Gandalf, as the Grey Pilgrim who was out and about more compared to Elrond or Galadriel, could not actually wear his Ring at certain times.

[Pervinca Took]

It's interesting perhaps, that for the revised edition Tolkien added (The Grey Havens, second edition of the 1960s) that Gandalf now openly wore Narya. Of course that could refer to some kind of magic, or that he wore it now in plain view on his finger.

If the latter, this might mean that Gandalf, as the Grey Pilgrim who was out and about more compared to Elrond or Galadriel, could not actually wear his Ring at certain times.

What do you think of the interpretation that Sam saw Nenya (as in its light) but did not understand what it was, as Frodo did. Sam saw 'something' but earlier he was greatly upset by his vision, didn't want to see any more magic, and a bit later wished Galadriel would take the One and stop 'them digging up the gaffer' and so on (revealing, I think, where his mind and attention was still focused)..

I agree.

I always had the feeling that the Three Rings were visible if their bearers chose to make them so, more than that Frodo saw them because he himself bore the One. I wonder if he perhaps sensed their presence more than anyone else, though, as a result of being the Ringbearer. I agree with Galin's suggestion that Sam did see Nenya, but just didn't realise what it was - "I saw a star through your finger." Maybe Frodo was able to see Nenya more clearly than Sam could, but anyone could see it if its bearer willed it? Maybe the quality of being able to be concealed at will was a part of the magic of the Three?

It's interesting that Galadriel is the only one to specifically tell Frodo where one of the Three lies: "It is not permitted to speak [of them], but it cannot be concealed from the Ringbearer, and one who has seen the Eye" (rough quotation from memory). Galadriel is known to be strong-willed, and may have many reasons for doing so. I always felt one of the main reasons, though, was that she felt he had a right to know. Perhaps Gandalf and Elrond thought it would be too risky, because such knowledge could be extracted from him by torture, but Galadriel reasoned that if the Ringbearer were captured, the game would be up in any case?

Maybe they also just felt that "he knew enough to be going on with" and didn't see any point in overloading him with more information. ;) Not to mention the added responsibility of guarding further secrets. Plus, of course, the fact that we as the reader learn and wonder about things as Frodo does, and unsolved mysteries add to the richness of the story and keep us guessing.

[Inziladun]

It's interesting perhaps, that for the revised edition Tolkien added (The Grey Havens, second edition of the 1960s) that Gandalf now openly wore Narya. Of course that could refer to some kind of magic, or that he wore it now in plain view on his finger.

If the latter, this might mean that Gandalf, as the Grey Pilgrim who was out and about more compared to Elrond or Galadriel, could not actually wear his Ring at certain times.

I don't think the Three had any sort of invisibility. That power is specifically associated with the rings in which Sauron had a direct role in making. Invisibility is the "realm of hidden things", the shadow-world of the Nazgûl. Sauron seems to have endowed the One, the Seven, and the Nine with invisibility power with that in mind.
Why would the Elves had wanted the Three to have it, even if only as camouflage for the rings themselves? When the Three were fashioned, Sauron's plot involving the One was not known. Therefore, the Elves would have felt no call for any secrecy surrounding the Three or their use.

I favor the notion that Gandalf simply did not openly wear Narya at all times, but as Galin notes, Elrond and Galadriel would have been far more secure in wearing their rings, ensconced in secure locations.

[Galin]

Maybe Frodo was able to see Nenya more clearly than Sam could, but anyone could see it if its bearer willed it? Maybe the quality of being able to be concealed at will was a part of the magic of the Three?

I was thinking more along the lines of Inziladun's recent post, that the Three were not connected to 'invisibility power' (which seemingly connects to Sauron's influence) even in this much measure, and that the Mirdain did not know of Sauron's plan when the Three were crafted.

When Galadriel first lifted up her arms: 'Frodo gazed at the Ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.' We don't know at this point that the Ring was necessarily invisible. Frodo didn't suddenly see a ring, he saw it and suddenly understood -- this connects to Galadriel's question later.

The second time Galadriel lifts her hand the Ring issued a great light that illuminated her alone. Frodo does ask why he cannot: '... see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them' but even this isn't exactly 'simple sight' but perception as well. As Ringbearer his 'sight has grown keener' -- not his physical visual powers I think, but his ability to see that which is hidden from the perception of others.

But of course comes the issue of Sam: yet note Galadriel's question compared to what had been noted about Frodo suddenly understanding: 'And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?' she asked, turning to Sam.' Granted Galadriel doesn't say 'and recognize' to Sam as well, but I find it notable that 'and recognize' was added to a draft at some point, where the earlier text simply had 'see' for Frodo's question as well.

Sam doesn't actually mention any ring of course, admittedly suggesting invisibility, but he did see something -- and to my mind something connected to what was actually going on too -- he saw 'a star through your [Galadriel's] fingers'.

Again that's something, but perhaps Sam would not 'see' the truth even if he had noticed an actual ring: he wasn't the Bearer of the One, and as a Hobbit in general is 'Halfwise' and simple (and Sam already had said he didn't want 'to see no more magic' even). This would be quite like Tolkien in my opinion: a good way to illustrate perception would be to have Sam see something he thought was something else, and simply not understand what all this talk was about.

I'm not saying this is a clearly correct interpretation (especially if there is other text to consider on this point), however.

[Alfirin]

Sauron would certainly have had the One on his person when captured. However, the Númenóreans probably did not even know of the existence of the Rings of Power at that time. I can see the wily Sauron saying something along the lines of "Please, Great King, this heirloom is all I have left to me. Let me treasure it, since I have nothing else."
Since they were unwary enough about Sauron and his ways to have taken him to their homeland in the first place, I don't see why the Ring would have specially concerned them.

It also probably wouldn't have impressed them enough to be worth taking. Remember, in and of itself, the One Ring doesn't look like much, it's a simple gold band, without stone or (visible) inscription (it's unclear if the insription on the ring is visible perpetually when on Sauron's finger, but I tend to think it isn't, you have to put it in a fire to make the inscription seen. And since this is "old" sauron we are talking about who can still take fair forms, her presumably isn't in a form where his hand is continually on fire.) To the eyes of a Numernorian Royal or noble, it would appear a cheap trifle, the kind of thing they'd fob off on a low foot soldier for some minor service that meritied a token reward for appearances sake. Nothing worth taking.

[Puddleglum]

it's unclear if the inscription on the ring is visible perpetually when on Sauron's finger, but I tend to think it isn't, you have to put it in a fire to make the inscription seen.Here's an interesting thought. Gandalf tells (the Council) that Isuldur reported "The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire."

So, how did Sauron go around schmoozing the nobility of Numenor with hands that burned on touch?

Possibly his pre-Akallebeth form of flesh "didn't" have burning hands. But that begs the question of how or why his "post"-Akallebeth form's hands *did* burn like fire. If this was a post "feature", was it by choice?

Any thoughts? Or is there anything elsewhere bearing on the question (off hand, I don't think of anything else).

[Alfirin]

Here's an interesting thought. Gandalf tells (the Council) that Isuldur reported "The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire."

So, how did Sauron go around schmoozing the nobility of Numenor with hands that burned on touch?

Possibly his pre-Akallebeth form of flesh "didn't" have burning hands. But that begs the question of how or why his "post"-Akallebeth form's hands *did* burn like fire. If this was a post "feature", was it by choice?

Any thoughts? Or is there anything elsewhere bearing on the question (off hand, I don't think of anything else).


It probably didn't, the pre-Akallebeth form was counted amoung the "fair" ones, and I rather doubt burning or blackened hands would count as "fair". As for why the Post did, I think the answer is that, when Saurom re-incarnated post-Akallebeth he realized that, given his strength, this was likey the last form he would have, and, limted as he was to "foul" forms by then wanted to go with one that seemed most likey to accompish his goal of conquest. So the form he chose was as close as he could get to the form his former master, Melkorm, had taken (with both we have a "gigantic" (not so big with Sauron, but he is still described as being more than normal man size) human form in black armor. Melkor's hands continually burned (from trying to handle the Silmarils) so Sauron made his hands firey as well. No to mentiond it does add an extra layer of protection to the rings, Isildur got by by chopping the finger off and then taking it, but someone who simply tried to pull the ring(s) off Sauron's hands when he was simply knocked out or asleep, assuming Sauron does sleep (Melkor did, so Sauron probably does) would have to deal with rings that were likely perpetually red hot.

[Radtech51]

Another even simpler explanation is that Gandalf was not infallible. Perhaps at the time, he believed the Nazgûl kept the Nine. The story, as we know in hindsight, is told through the literary deceit of Hobbitish retelling. It would be nigh impossible for Gandalf to know that Sauron kept the Nine. How would he know beyond a shadow of a doubt? How could it be proved? I don't believe Sauron advertised the fact, and the Nazgûl were certainly not chatty sorts either.

Of the three Gandalf had direct, personal knowledge, of the seven there was anecdotal evidence supporting the idea that Sauron had taken three back (one of these was certainly worn by Thrain II, imprisoned by the Necromancer/Sauron), but the other four were supposedly consumed by dragons.

To say that by inversion the sentence "The nine the Nazgûl keep" means anything other than it implies makes little sense, particularly since Gandalf is presenting his knowledge to the Council of Elrond, where such ambiguity would be counterintuitive. The inversion is for emphasis on the nine, as Gandalf relates the whereabouts of each ring. It is far more ominous using a heightened and alliterative "The nine the Nazgûl keep", than the modern "The Nazgûl keep the nine." There is poetic symmetry in the former and not in the latter.

If Gandalf knew at the time that Sauron held the nine, he would just say so, as he did with the the few of the seven the Dark Lord held.

If Gandalf did believe that the nine kept the rings of power that leads me to ask another question. When the king of the ring wraiths fell in battle why did he not then go and seek out his ring?

[Alfirin]

If Gandalf did believe that the nine kept the rings of power that leads me to ask another question. When the king of the ring wraiths fell in battle why did he not then go and seek out his ring?
Well, there is the simple fact that the Witch King's death happens in the middle of a major battle, Gandalf certainly has more things on his plate thang going out to comb a battlefield for a ring that really isn't all that much of an immediate threat (Gandalf, after all, knows how the wraith's rings work,more or less, and knows they take some time to corrupt a person into a Nazgul. Pellenor is near the endgame, and Gandalf knows it. Whether the war goes for them or against them, it will probably be over before that can happen, unless Sauron already has someone lined up and prepped (he does, in. the Mouth of Sauron (and possibly others) but Gandalf probably doesn't know about them)
But, I tend to think the reason is that, whether or not Gandalf knew Sauron held the Nine at the time of the Council, he did know (or had worked it out) by the time of the Battle of Pellenor fields. This explains something later, why as the Walls of Bara-Dur are crumbling Gandalf doesn't feel the need to turn his attention to the Nazgul. Assuming we assume he still doesn't know, he would assume they all still have thier rings, and, more importantly are still alive and capable of much mischief (no one else has dropped dead when their ring was taken away from them, and the Three didn't stop working the moment Sauron bit it (Gandalf has Narya, so he would probably sort of know if it had suddenly conked out) so there is no particualr reason to assume that there are not 8 still fully living Ringwraiths, with still currently functional rings, riding winged beasts, fully capable of wheeling around flying to Minast Tirith, and basically obliterating it, then rallying Saurons troops into a frenzy force that could destroy the Free peoples anyway .Yes he does hop and eagle and head in the general direction they went (Actually that would make for a really nice twist to the story, what if the reason Gandalf and the Eagles were coming to Mount Doon was that they were pursing the Nazgul, and the discovery and rescue of Frodo and Bilbo was a lucky coincidence) but only 2, not really all that much if he expected an actual arial battle.

[Radtech51]

Well, there is the simple fact that the Witch King's death happens in the middle of a major battle, Gandalf certainly has more things on his plate thang going out to comb a battlefield for a ring that really isn't all that much of an immediate threat (Gandalf, after all, knows how the wraith's rings work,more or less, and knows they take some time to corrupt a person into a Nazgul. Pellenor is near the endgame, and Gandalf knows it. Whether the war goes for them or against them, it will probably be over before that can happen, unless Sauron already has someone lined up and prepped (he does, in. the Mouth of Sauron (and possibly others) but Gandalf probably doesn't know about them)
But, I tend to think the reason is that, whether or not Gandalf knew Sauron held the Nine at the time of the Council, he did know (or had worked it out) by the time of the Battle of Pellenor fields. This explains something later, why as the Walls of Bara-Dur are crumbling Gandalf doesn't feel the need to turn his attention to the Nazgul. Assuming we assume he still doesn't know, he would assume they all still have thier rings, and, more importantly are still alive and capable of much mischief (no one else has dropped dead when their ring was taken away from them, and the Three didn't stop working the moment Sauron bit it (Gandalf has Narya, so he would probably sort of know if it had suddenly conked out) so there is no particualr reason to assume that there are not 8 still fully living Ringwraiths, with still currently functional rings, riding winged beasts, fully capable of wheeling around flying to Minast Tirith, and basically obliterating it, then rallying Saurons troops into a frenzy force that could destroy the Free peoples anyway .Yes he does hop and eagle and head in the general direction they went (Actually that would make for a really nice twist to the story, what if the reason Gandalf and the Eagles were coming to Mount Doon was that they were pursing the Nazgul, and the discovery and rescue of Frodo and Bilbo was a lucky coincidence) but only 2, not really all that much if he expected an actual arial battle.

I understand your point of view but there was plenty of time after the battle for Gandalf to look into this issue even if it only took a moment of his time when walking among the dead on the battlefield. This is of course assuming that the ring didn't slip Gandalf mind? If the ring of power was just laying on the battlefield awaiting someone else to pick it up I'm sure Gandalf would be concerned about don't you? Even if that was a minor issue on his list of things to do.
PS: Of course Gandalf did do many things that were never written into the book I'm going to assume that this could have been one of them what do you think?

[Alfirin]

I understand your point of view but there was plenty of time after the battle for Gandalf to look into this issue even if it only took a moment of his time when walking among the dead on the battlefield. This is of course assuming that the ring didn't slip Gandalf mind? If the ring of power was just laying on the battlefield awaiting someone else to pick it up I'm sure Gandalf would be concerned about don't you? Even if that was a minor issue on his list of things to do.
PS: Of course Gandalf did do many things that were never written into the book I'm going to assume that this could have been one of them what do you think?

It might have taken a lot more than a moment. We're talking about a loose ring (remember the WK dissolved when he died so it's not like a matter of "find the WK's body and pull the ring off his finger") on a battlefied that is still somewhat active; in a place that would have been trod over by the people who bore Eowyn, Merry and Theoden off the field, and possibly by others (remember the reason Eomer is willing to sacrafice troops to carry Theoden away mid battle is that he thinks it's quite likely that the tide of battle could flow over the spot.) If the ring had not been taken by someone, it would likey be already trodden into the mud beyond visibility if not accidentally burined under Snowmane (who the men would have had to move to get Theoden out) or the Fell Beast (who they could have had to move to get the people out, or whose corpse could simply have been pushed by something). Unless Gandalf posseed Sauron's ability to sense the rings (and he doesn't) finding it would likey be akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

[Radtech51]

It might have taken a lot more than a moment. We're talking about a loose ring (remember the WK dissolved when he died so it's not like a matter of "find the WK's body and pull the ring off his finger") on a battlefied that is still somewhat active; in a place that would have been trod over by the people who bore Eowyn, Merry and Theoden off the field, and possibly by others (remember the reason Eomer is willing to sacrafice troops to carry Theoden away mid battle is that he thinks it's quite likely that the tide of battle could flow over the spot.) If the ring had not been taken by someone, it would likey be already trodden into the mud beyond visibility if not accidentally burined under Snowmane (who the men would have had to move to get Theoden out) or the Fell Beast (who they could have had to move to get the people out, or whose corpse could simply have been pushed by something). Unless Gandalf posseed Sauron's ability to sense the rings (and he doesn't) finding it would likey be akin to finding a needle in a haystack.

You make very good points and I agree it may have taken more effort and time then what Gandalf was willing to put in to find the ring. Now the WK did dissolve but I'm assuming his clothing was left behind or his gauntlet if he had one? Also there are the dead mounts on the ground like you said, so it wouldn't be extremely hard for Gandalf to find the scene if he so desired it. I'd still like to believe that Gandalf did do a quick search for the ring even though it wasn't mentioned in the book, he might have even picked it up and kept it safe. I also don't think Gandalf would've spent a lot of time in searching for it ether way.

[Alfirin]

You make very good points and I agree it may have taken more effort and time then what Gandalf was willing to put in to find the ring. Now the WK did dissolve but I'm assuming his clothing was left behind or his gauntlet if he had one? Also there are the dead mounts on the ground like you said, so it wouldn't be extremely hard for Gandalf to find the scene if he so desired it. I'd still like to believe that Gandalf did do a quick search for the ring even though it wasn't mentioned in the book, he might have even picked it up and kept it safe. I also don't think Gandalf would've spent a lot of time in searching for it ether way.

Find the spot yes, find where in the spot the ring might be no.
As for the WK leavings, we are told his cloak stays behind, and his crown. Everything else is left up to interpretation (I seem to remember Merry saying something to the effect that "There is nothing left but a crown and an empty cloak" but that is probably just the BBC version of the statement.) And even they may no longer be there (much as you like to believe that Gandalf made a cursory seach for the ring, I like to beleive the crown, and perhaps the cloak as well, would have been picked up by some loyal servant of Sauron, to be presented to Khamul (assuming that he inherits the title of "Witch King of Angmar" along with that of "Lord of the Nazgul")) But even if the armor is left behind with no hand inside it, the ring could easily fall off or out (depending on whether Gandalf thinks the WK would wear his ring under or over any mail gauntlet.)

[Radtech51]

Find the spot yes, find where in the spot the ring might be no.
As for the WK leavings, we are told his cloak stays behind, and his crown. Everything else is left up to interpretation (I seem to remember Merry saying something to the effect that "There is nothing left but a crown and an empty cloak" but that is probably just the BBC version of the statement.) And even they may no longer be there (much as you like to believe that Gandalf made a cursory seach for the ring, I like to beleive the crown, and perhaps the cloak as well, would have been picked up by some loyal servant of Sauron, to be presented to Khamul (assuming that he inherits the title of "Witch King of Angmar" along with that of "Lord of the Nazgul")) But even if the armor is left behind with no hand inside it, the ring could easily fall off or out (depending on whether Gandalf thinks the WK would wear his ring under or over any mail gauntlet.)

True, I can see the point you make about his crown being sought out by a loyal servant of Sauron. However if the enemy did go to pick up the dead WK's crown he would have undoubtedly found the Lady and the hobbit laying their next to his crown helpless and easy to slay or hack apart while they grabbed the crown, just a thought?

[Alfirin]

True, I can see the point you make about his crown being sought out by a loyal servant of Sauron. However if the enemy did go to pick up the dead WK's crown he would have undoubtedly found the Lady and the hobbit laying their next to his crown helpless and easy to slay or hack apart while they grabbed the crown, just a thought?

I meant AFTER Eowyn, Merry,and Theoden had been taken away. Before then, the area is occupied by Eomer (He hears Theoden's last words, so he gets there before Theoden is completely dead). The amount of time between when Eowyn kills the WK and Eomer gets to Theoden is minimal. And given the circumstnaces, anyone seeing the battle is likey to know Eomer isn't going to simply say "someone get these three off the battlefield" and then walk away, he's going to stay there until he sees the job is being done. but AFTER they are taken in, the area is just sort of abandoned for a while (before they come back to yank the fell beast off snowmane, burn the beast, and bury the horse). THAT's when a loyal servant could decide was a good time, particualry if the sevant in question is someone like Gothmog, who is on a fell beast himself and so can simply swoop in grab the crown and fly off with minimal risk. Or just a quick Uruk-hai or Man (no offence to them, but I imagine the Oolog-hai aren't quite bright enough to see the signifcance of a crown, particualry a rather dull in color one (the WK's crown is iron, remember). And at that point there really isn't all that much defilement they can do, even if they want to. Eowyn, Merry and Theoden are gone. Snowmane (if they want to defile his body) is still buried under the beast. If a Mordorian or Angmarian made it to the spot, taking the crown and cloak would be about all they could do.

[jallanite]

There are a number of places where Tolkien tells clearly that the Nazgûl no longer possessed their rings, Sauron having taken them back. Sauron controled the Nazgûl by the rings which he held.

Gandalf explains this to Frodo in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past″:
So it is now: the Nine he [Sauron] has gathered to himself; …
For a recent discussion of this see http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=676175#post676175 and the following posts.

[Radtech51]

There are a number of places where Tolkien tells clearly that the Nazgûl no longer possessed their rings, Sauron having taken them back. Sauron controled the Nazgûl by the rings which he held.

Gandalf explains this to Frodo in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past″:
So it is now: the Nine he [Sauron] has gathered to himself; …
For a recent discussion of this see http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=676175#post676175 and the following posts.

Then please share your interpretation of this? Spoken at the Council of Elrond is precisely:
"The Nine the Nazgûl keep."

[jallanite]

Then please share your interpretation of this? Spoken at the Council of Elrond is precisely:
"The Nine the Nazgûl keep."

As I indicated, go to http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...175#post676175 (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=676175#post676175)

That post and the following ones cover a number of quotations about the Nazgûl rings.

[Radtech51]

The sentence spoken at the Council of Elrond is precisely:The Nine the Nazgûl keep.
Given the many other passages by Tolkien in which Sauron himself possesses the Nine, it would seem that Tolkien, as he often does, is using inversion here. The sentence has “The Nine” as its subject. What do “the Nine” do? They “keep”. What then do the nine Rings keep? They keep the Nazgûl in line for Sauron.

The sentence would be translated into normal modern word order as “The Nine keep the Nazgûl.”

Christopher Tolkien unfortunately does not cover Gandalf’s explanation in the HoME volumes, as least so far as I have found. So HoME sheds no light on this sentence.

That is the only explanation that I have discovered. I read this suggestion years ago in some fanzine. Tolkien, more used to including inversions in the words of his speakers then most modern readers, might not have noticed that this sentence is ambiguous, especially since he would already know what he meant by it.

It's just my opinion but I don't think he was using an inversion. The statement is very clear and to the point leaving very little room for interpretation. Also I got the impression that when he was talking about the greater rings of power he wanted to make it to the point and keep it simple because he didn't really want to be talking about their locations.

[jallanite]

It's just my opinion but I don't think he was using an inversion. The statement is very clear and to the point leaving very little room for interpretation. Also I got the impression that when he was talking about the greater rings of power he wanted to make it to the point and keep it simple because he didn't really want to be talking about their locations.

*Sigh!*

The discussion continues until http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=676201#post676201 which makes it plain that I don’t like the explanation I presented either.

But what of that?

Tolkien twice elsewhere in The Lord of the Rings and once in Letters and twice in Unfinished Tales claims that the nine Rings possessed by mortals had returned to Sauron by that time. See http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm and search on “C7.” for a complete discussion.

The mention in the chapter “The Council of Elrond” is either to be interpreted according to my suggestion or it is in error.

[Radtech51]

*Sigh!*

The discussion continues until http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=676201#post676201 which makes it plain that I don’t like the explanation I presented either.

But what of that?

Tolkien twice elsewhere in The Lord of the Rings and once in Letters and twice in Unfinished Tales claims that the nine Rings possessed by mortals had returned to Sauron by that time. See http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm and search on “C7.” for a complete discussion.

The mention in the chapter “The Council of Elrond” is either to be interpreted according to my suggestion or it is in error.

Could be an error then.
PS: However I'm more inclined to believe that when token talks about Sauron gathering the nine to himself he could have been referring to the (ring wraiths). After all if he has control of the (ring wraiths) then he pretty much has control of the nine rings of power. It would pretty much for all reasoning be the one and the same.

PSS: Where were the nine and their rings of power during the Hobbit?

[Nerwen]

PS: However I'm more inclined to believe that when token talks about Sauron gathering the nine to himself he could have been referring to the (ring wraiths). After all if he has control of the (ring wraiths) then he pretty much has control of the nine rings of power. It would pretty much for all reasoning be the one and the same.

Ingenious... but I'm afraid it won't wash. The quotes jallanite links to make that plain:

“... Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control. ...” [L #246 (331)]
Gandalf tells Frodo, “the Nine [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed.” [LotR I 2 (65)]
Galadriel tells Frodo that, looking in her mirror, “You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine.” [LotR II 7 (386)]
In “The Hunt for the Ring”, we read of Sauron’s “mightiest servants, the Ring-wraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.” [UT: HR (338)]
In another version of “The Hunt for the Ring”, again we read that the Ringwraiths “were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which [Sauron] now himself held”. [UT: HR (343)]

As you see, even if you suppose "the Seven" to be the Dwarf-lords(!), the information is given several other ways that won't bear even that interpretation.

[Radtech51]

Ingenious... but I'm afraid it won't wash. The quotes jallanite links to make that plain:



As you see, even if you suppose "the Seven" to be the Dwarf-lords(!), the information is given several other ways that won't bear even that interpretation.

I tend to agree, the evidence tends to supports the theory of a contradiction in the book favoring the fact that J.R.R Tolkien did make a mistake.

[Inziladun]

I tend to agree, the evidence tends to supports the theory of a contradiction in the book favoring the fact that J.R.R Tolkien did make a mistake.

One more possible explanation for Gandalf's statement "The Nine the Nazgûl keep", is that maybe it was Gandalf's (admittedly unclear) way of saying "The Nine are accounted for; they are forever associated with the Nazgûl".
Speculation? Yes? Was the passage in question very possibly a mere uncorrected slip? Yes. Still, like I said, I like to seek "in-world" answers to such questions as this whenever I can.

[Alfirin]

I would also like to point out that,while unlikey (in that it would be a deviation from the subject of the conversation) in a certain sense, the quote as it stands makes sense in another manner, that of meaning "The Nine are keptthe Nazgul", not literally, but figuratively. In a certian sense, each of the Nazgul is kept by his ring. The rings keep them in the sense of "keeping them slaves". They also likely "keep them" as in "preserve" them (out of all the ringbearers in the history, The Nazul are the ONLY ones (apart maybe from Gollum) whose time on earth is extended sufficiently that we KNOW thier rings have allowed them to "live past thier time" (Bilbo lives quite long for a hobbit, in fact as long as the longest lived hobbit known to that date, but the very fact that there was a hobbit before him that matched that age indicates that that lifespan is not outside of the range of normal hobbit possibility (i.e. that he could not have lived the exact same amount of time had he never worn the ring).