Taters to Taters - II

[Boromir88]

Opening up the next game, it will still be a few days before beginning, as others may want to come along and sign up. This is the current list, as far as I'm aware. I think I can do about 5-6 more max, so if anyone is interested in joining, please there's still room :)

G55
Greenie
Gwath
Legate
Lommy
Lottie
Menel
Nogrod
Oddwen
Pomegranate
Rune
Sally
TGEW

[Nogrod]

How about the rules, or the possible fine-tuning of them?

So how long would the rounds last and will we have two rounds going on at the same time like the last time or do we separate them?

Will we go for a certain predetermined number of rounds finally "emptying our hands" with no replenishments - or will the game end when someone has gotten X amount of taters?

[Oddwen]

I would like to sign up, please!

[Loslote]

Oh, I am very much in.

[Pomegranate]

Yay, I'm in :)

[Boromir88]

How about the rules, or the possible fine-tuning of them?

So how long would the rounds last and will we have two rounds going on at the same time like the last time or do we separate them?


So the two choices are...

Send me the next round while the previous round is being judged. (what we ended up doing 1st game and it means 1 round takes 24 hours).

Or...24 hours for all players to send me their choice for the round. Then 24 hours for the judge to pick th winner (so 1 full round takes 48 hours).

I can do either (can't go any quicker than 24 hours though), so whichever one is more convenient for the players, we'll go with.

Will we go for a certain predetermined number of rounds finally "emptying our hands" with no replenishments - or will the game end when someone has gotten X amount of taters?

I have no problems going until most players have no more red taters remaining (or 1). I figure might as well use them all. :)

[Boromir88]

Friday...or at the latest, Saturday I will PM everyone their 7 red taters and we'll begin.

As far as some of the other things. We'll start with 48 hours to complete 1 round. That is, I post the judge and green tater for the round, and players have 24 hours to PM their pick to me. Then I will post in this thread all the options and the judge will have 24 hours to deliberate, while everyone else makes their cases and arguments. If it starts to become too long for the players, we can always speed it up to how we did it in the first game.

And for how many rounds. I want to at least give everyone 2 times to judge, so that puts it at 26 rounds total.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Or...24 hours for all players to send me their choice for the round. Then 24 hours for the judge to pick th winner (so 1 full round takes 48 hours).

Yep, I guess this case is the better one. Anyway, at least for start (and possibly for us who are just starting this?). And anyway, at least for me, since I'll be at Lommy's place during the upcoming week and that means having much less time for playing fast :)

[Pomegranate]

Hey, lovelies, I'm out of town for the weekend so unless this starts early on Friday (or late on Sat, so I'll be back just before the end) I might miss the first round. Is that okay?

[Boromir88]

Saturday was a bit more hectic than I anticipated and it included in an unplanned accident (I'm fine...no on seriously injured). Anyway, tomorrow we'll start and that way I don't think anyone will miss Round 1.

Deadline will be 8pm EST (if anyone objects and wants it a little earlier or later, let me know. The DL isn't as deathly important as Werewolf, it's just so everyone know by what time the new rounds will start/end).

[Boromir88]

All players should have been PMed their red taters. By 8pm EST Monday (about half and hour from the time-stamp on this post) send me your choice for Round 1.

----

ROUND 1

Green tater: Absurd (ridiculous, senseless, foolish)
Judge: Galadriel55

[Boromir88]

And now for Round 1 judging. Galadriel55 pick the most "absurd" of these...

Merry
Attercop
Rhun
Maeglin
Miriel
Bombadil
"There and Back Again"
Osgiliath
Isengard
Denethor
Legolas
Shelob

----

At this time, everyone is encouraged (but not required) to post any arguments, or case, for any of the above choices. Your case may very well have an influence on the judge's decision, so don't be shy. :D

*The only thing not allowed is for a player to directly reveal which one is his/hers. For example, anything that is "My card is ____" BEFORE the judge's decision will result in the player's red tater being disqualified for that round. If someone only wants to make an argument for 1 of the options, and that happens to be the person's tater, that's perfectly fine, just no direct revealing.

AFTER the judge's decision, a player may reveal his/her card if he/she wishes. The only one I will reveal is the player who won and thus gets awarded the "point."

*Towards the end of the first game, some of the winners the judges selected gave no explanation for their choice. The judge may be as detailed as he/she wishes, but in the very least, please provide your reasoning for choosing the winner. Thanks.

24 hours to deliberate. :)

[Galadriel55]

Good ones, good ones. The ones that particularly stood out to me are Merry, Attercop, Bombadil, and There and Back Again. I'm willing to be swayed between those four, so do start arguing. :Merisu:

[Meneltarmacil]

Merry: I think the most absurd thing Merry ever did was forgetting about his pack in the Houses of Healing, and honestly he's nowhere near Pippin in terms of absurdity.

Attercop: An insulting term used against giant talking spiders? Maybe, but doesn't really stand out.

Bombadil: This is the most obvious choice by far. Everything from the ridiculous outfit to the nonsensical rhymes to the fact that he really doesn't seem to belong in the story at all just screams "absurd".

There and Back Again: Whil Bilbo may have taken some creative liberties with the narrative and some points along the line (namely the unexpected party and the bickering Cockney trolls) certainly count as absurd, it's still nowhere near Bombadil.

EDIT: In fact, the whole episode involving the hobbits and Bombadil seems to fit the criteria of a Big Lipped Alligator Moment (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigLippedAlligatorMoment) quite closely.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

I think that Bombadil should definitely win this one. He is, by far, the most absurd character in Middle-earth. I dare you to find a more absurd one.

[the phantom]

ABSURD

Attercop & Bombadil are definitely my favorites here. My first time through the book I remember thinking how ridiculous it was that Bilbo would call the spiders "attercop" and how silly it was that it actually made them angry. And of course with all the "derry dols" and such Tom is an obvious candidate...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Tolkien's use of old words has always had great appeal to me, as it makes the linguistic ties between Scandinavia and Britain much more clear.

It wasn't something I paid much attention to until I read the Hobbit, and noticed the word "attercop", which is remarkable in its resemblance to the Danish word for spider: Edderkop.

Therefore I would hate to see "attercop" labeled absurd.

My choice would definitely be good ol' Bombadil, as he is the one most fitting of the description. I don't normally go for the obvious choices, but in this case there are no really amusing contenders for the title.

[Nogrod]

Well, of the four G55 mentioned in her opening post I'd pretty much think Bombadill and "There and Back Again" to be the best contestants.

Okay. Let's try some competition as it seems Bombadill is surfing away.

Now Bombadill, obviously could be seen as an absurd character both in the story but also as to why he is in the story in the first place. But on the other side he seems to be a most competent, decent and powerful character... If Gandalf spends time with him to learn things, if he saves the hobbits two times, if someone as wise and delightful as Goldberry wants to live with him... so can he really be that absurd?

Then again, any decent hobbit knows taking on a journey of "There and Back again" - let alone any journey off the Hobbitton - is an absurd idea. Why would anyone in their right minds want to do that? From a hobbit perspective it would be a most absurd thing to do.

I liked the argument that Attercop is absurd as it and other spiders went mad of being called names, but I'm not sure that is enough to challenge the other two.

With Merry I agree with Menel, that he's nowhere close to Pip in absurdity... if you can call a hobbitt-sillyness or thoughtlesness, or childishness, or inexperience etc. "absurd" in the first place.


Of others I think a case could be made for Isengard and Legolas (in case we interpreted it as the movie-Legolas aka. Orlando Bloom doing his skateboarding stunts etc. - that was absurd indeed!), maybe Denethor as well...

I try to come back a bit later with some added ideas on especially the latter ones.

[Galadriel55]

I like Nog's thought about Legolas. Haven't considered that, and probably should. It's a good one.

I like attercop because when I picture Bilbo teasing the spiders in such a situation it looks ridiculous. Also, There and Back Again is quite a ridiculus journey.

I suppose you're right about Merry not coming anywhere near Pippin when it comes to absurdity.

And it's quite obvious why Bombadil could be called absurd. Hey ho, derry dol...

[Pomegranate]

Oh, dear Legolas and his role as prince charming...

I also would have pointed out both of the two options Nog mentioned - Denethor and Isengard. Now, thinking about the definition of absurd as "Absurd (ridiculous, senseless, foolish)". Senseless - Denethor towards the end of his days, definitely losing his sense. Foolish? Saruman in his stony circle, assuming he could with the power of Isengard beat or even collaborate with the power of Mordor. There's a lot of absurdity in Bombadil, but I have to disagree him fitting with the latter two pieces of explanation.

"There and back again" - I love travelling too much to take it as absurd. Bilbo bought a lot back home from his trip, not only treasure but a broader understanding and stronger character. Not foolish or senseless, hardly even ridiculous.

[Galadriel55]

I think that Denethor and Saruman are too grave and serious to be called absurd. And I guess I could agree about There and Back Again.

So at the moment it is between Legolas, Bombadil, and attercop.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I find that the problem is that none of these things are really absurd in essence, sure you can argue that Denethor did some absurd things in his latter days, but that is pretty much the extend of it. It is only Bombadil where you can make a proper case of the very character being a bit of an absurdity (though very competent in his own right).

I guess you could take the Legolas skateboarding and other antics and pin the absurd label on that. You could even claim that it is absurd that a man as gifted as Tolkien could not make the Legolas character work, but all of this seems a tad vague.

[Galadriel55]

This seems to make most sense, and I see most of you agree with me.

++BOMBADIL

For being the most absurd songster in ME.

[Nogrod]

Oh my!

Surely any decent hobbit could have told you that making an adventure is at the same time an absurd idea no level minded hobbit would even entertain in their right minds, but that going voluntarily into such perils would be plain ridiculous, senseless and foolish while you could just sit in the Green Dragon with the best of company! :)

But well, it seems no "big people" ever understand things from the POV of the hobbits. And well, you know who to blame this worlds has gone bad...

[Boromir88]

And the Round 1 victory...

Meneltarmacil.

Congrats and as I said, Bombadil was for sure going to be one of the front runners.

Personally I was pulling for the surprise of "There and Back Again" or Attercop.

I was quite intrigued by the argument of from a Hobbit POV, Bilbo's adventure was the most absurd thing a hobbit could do. Any decent and respectable hobbit would definitely label it absurd, and heck Bilbo for a while also thought it absurd too! And come to think of it, from a message (although about one of the different people) the point was made, that most outsiders would probably find the characters and Tolkien's story as an "absurd story." :p

Then the arguments made for Attercop, and perhaps Legolas making a late push, there might have been a chance for them.

Still, the leading representative of absurdity keeps the title. For you need no different perspective, nor argument for Bombadil. He is. And that is, without question, absurd. ;)

Next round coming up in a few hours. Continued discussion on this round is encouraged (but not required)...and if anyone else wishes to share what their card was, may do so now.

[Boromir88]

Tally

Menel - 1 (Absurd)

----

ROUND 2

Green tater: Handy (helpful, useful, ready)
Judge: Greenie

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

And come to think of it, from a message (although about one of the different people) the point was made, that most outsiders would probably find the characters and Tolkien's story as an "absurd story." :p


More like the fans were absurd for liking the story to begin with, and then horror of horrors, discussing it on the internet with like minded strangers! :eek::p

[Boromir88]

Tally

Menel - 1 (Absurd)

----

ROUND 2

Greenie...best of luck trying to judge this round. Woah quite a nice variety and many ways to go... :D

Cirdan
Maedhros
Thuringwethil
Yavanna
Eorl the Young
Gimli
Formenos
Ugluk
Isildur's Bane
Anduril
Blades of Westernesse

----

[Galadriel55]

Honestly, I think that Isildur's Bane and Anduril are the finalists. Eorl and Ugluk are funny, but they don't match the first two. And between them, Isildur's Bane wins. Anduril can sure be helpful, but have you thought about all the times when the Ring has come in handy (though sometimes only for a short time)?

Isildur's near-escape. Gollum's hunting. Bilbo's escape from Gollum. Bilbo's escape from the Spiders. Being invisible to Smaug. Giving the Arkenstone to Bard. Seeing the Sackville-Bagginses come near and thankfully finding the Ring in your pocket. Making a dramatic disappearance, for Eru's sake.

And that's just some of the "handiness". I didn't mention Frodo and Sam at all, and they too had their times of finding the Ring "handy" when the moment arose.

[the phantom]

I'm sure these folks are useful in certain situations, but they don't have that special something-
Cirdan
Eorl
Gimli
Ugluk
Thuringwethil- Messengers are handy I suppose, but not the winner.
Formenos- I get the Feanor association, but I don't think I'd pick it.
Isildur's Bane- Very handy for disappearing, and for establishing evil empires.
Anduril- Was pretty darn useful, but not to the extent of the Ring I'd say.
Blades of Westernesse- Same as above.
Maedhros- Without a doubt my favorite. I'd choose it. The pun is just too delicious.

[Galadriel55]

Maedhros- Without a doubt my favorite. I'd choose it. The pun is just too delicious.

Ah! I get it now. I was like "why would you play Maedhros? What does he have to do with it?" But I get the pun. It's a good one. But I still think the Ring trumps him. :cool:

[Oddwen]

Cirdan - Handed the red ring over to Gandalf

Maedhros - Less handy than some on this list

Thuringwethil - A handy disguise

Yavanna - Certainly a green thumb

Eorl the Young - Quite handy

Gimli - Quite a contrary handfull, if Tom Shippey is to be believed.

Formenos - Certainly it was handy for Morgoth to have the Silmarils underguarded here

Ugluk - Servant of the White Hand: the Hand that gave him man-flesh to eat.

Isildur's Bane - Could slip off a finger unexpectedly, not so handy for that reason. Though fingers are usually attached to the hand...y. It is also a sign that doom is near at hand.

Anduril - Forged by hand, wielded by hand, broken on a hand, re-forged and re-wielded by a hand.

Blades of Westernesse - Their particular virtues made them quite handy in their assigned places.



I'd have a hard time choosing between Maedhros and Ugluk, personally.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I am not a big fan of puns, so I would probably go for "Blades of Westernesse" or "Thuringwethil".

The first is very obviously handy, in fact I think everything could be made better with a blade of westernesse, and Thuringwethil is both handy as a messenger and later as a disguise.

Eorl the Young and Anduril could be outsiders for me, but they seem to have very specific application. Anduril was handy for Aragorn, but I doubt that anybody else could have used the sword to the same effect.
These things doesn't really matter, but it weird thinking like this that would determine my decision.

[A Little Green]

Excellent choices, buddies. Hmm. I appreciate both Thuringwethil and Maedhros, and Isildur's Bane certainly. My initial favourite though was Eorl the Young, because for all his leadership and heroism and the rest of that, the poor bloke is still pretty much only handy - an instrument for someone or something else. That puts him in the same category with Anduril and the Blades of Westernesse and all of those, except that poor Eorl was actually a person. Makes me sad, kind of.

That said, I haven't made my mind up yet so keep argumenting!

[Nogrod]

I can see the point behind offering a person as someone who is handy to have around to do something for you, but then again persons are a lot more than that besides their handiness. And by gods, calling Yavanna "handy" nears blasphemy! :)

Of the rest I'd say Formenos doesn't hit well enough. Yeah, you could say any stronghold you build is handy for you, but in the end Formenos didn't serve Fëanor & co that well.

Isildur's Bane I have hard times calling "handy". It's something akin to calling Yavanna handy. You don't call the vessel of the doom of the whole world "handy"...

One could argue that Anduril came in handy to Aragorn as a mark to prove his lineage - although having a possession of someone else's sword is not actually "The Proof" of anything. It did take part in some great deeds, but also at defeat (it broke the moment you needed it) - and Aragorn didn't seem to have made any outstanding heroics with it's help either.

The Blades of Westernesse could be handy as well, especially as it is in plural, like "these handy things one should have especially if you happen to stumble upon any wights or wraiths like the Nazgûl"... :rolleyes:


Hmm... hard to say.

Let me leave with a kind of "take back what I said" -option. Thuringwethil. If anyone, then Sauron is able to regard others as things or utensils - and thus coming handy to him.

[A Little Green]

Bwah. Gave Thuringwethil some serious consideration but decided to go with my first hunch after all. So -

++ Eorl the Young

Poor devil.

[Boromir88]

And a nice little streak that Menel has going...

2 for 2. :)

I could not have predicted Eorl, I thought for sure it would be one of the blades or Maedhros. But Eorl certainly was used (and handy) by many.

[satansaloser2005]

And a nice little streak that Menel has going...


He must be stopped! :rolleyes:

[Boromir88]

Have to do this a little early but everyone will still have until 8pm tomorrow to send me your choice. :)

Tally

Menel - 2 (Absurd, Handy)

----

ROUND 3

Green tater: Energetic (active, vigorous, forceful)
Judge: Gwath

[Boromir88]

Tally

Menel - 2 (Absurd, Handy)

----

ROUND 3

Gwath here's the energetic:

Beorn
Gondor
Butterbur
Thorin
Wargs
Beregond
Mayor Moneybags
Sauron
Bill Ferny
Varda

[Loslote]

Beorn - Maybe. I'd say more driven and motivated than energetic, but that might just be semantics.
Gondor - I'd say Gondor is the opposite of energetic, looking at its conduct without a king.
Butterbur - Far too forgetful to be the best choice, to my mind.
Thorin - Gold-hungry, ambitious, mighty, yes, but energetic? Mmm, maybe...
Wargs - Now this is a choice I can get behind.
Beregond - Yes, I'd say he fits the description.
Mayor Moneybags - A humorous choice if anything.
Sauron - Hmm. In more ways than one - a firey eye would consume a lot of energy, let along the energetic nature Sauron has as a character.
Bill Ferny - A different sort of energy than we've mostly seen, but energetic nonetheless, I'd say.
Varda - As Queen of the Valar, I see her more as an elegant, beautiful figure than an energetic one.

[Boromir88]

Alright, so I'm just getting back now, since I spent my day at a high school with a bunch of 9th graders. But it appears I'm not the only one having a busy weekend.

So, continue on this round for another day, and hopefully people get some more free time. Mmm...I need a nap.

[Gwathagor]

Drat. I forgot about this.

[A Little Green]

But it appears I'm not the only one having a busy weekend.Yeah... Just back from the wilderness (it was cold). Anyhow, out of those, I'd probably go for Wargs - just love the idea of them described as energetic.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right-y. A bit of analysis coming from my part as well, then, seeing that there is time.

Beorn - definitely has lot of energy, that cannot be doubted.
Gondor - maybe in its prime, but I would go with Lottie that the latter Gondor was in the state of full enthropy and losing its energy.
Butterbur - as a pun, I think it's not funny enough, however, I think it is actually much better from the "serious" point of view. I mean, you probably need to have lots of energy if you are him... running around all day with trays of food and beer to the customers, talking to hobbits, providing them with ponies and bedrooms, and shoving off Striders and other strange folks...
Thorin - I think yes, and I would maybe pick him before Beorn or even the Wargs. There is something mentioned I believe in the appendices to LotR about fire of vengeance burning in his heart, and he organised the whole trip to Erebor...
Wargs - that probably can't be doubted, but just like Beorn, I think it's rather "basic". And, I would say, "energetic" is not the first word that comes to your mind when you think of Wargs ("carnivorous" or something would be better). I think it isn't that fitting by itself.
Beregond - I would say sometimes, yes. It is certainly an innovative view of him. It's a nice idea, in any case.
Mayor Moneybags - well... mostly not, I guess.
Sauron - he definitely was energetic, also if you consider him in his prime. Maybe in the First Age a bit overshadowed by Melkor, but especially during the Second Age he was - the true former Maia of Aulë (a pity somebody did not play him), participating in creating several Rings of Power, and of course the One... and the energy to wage wars and manipulate nations for two Ages straight...
Bill Ferny - we haven't seen enough of him, though he seemed to me always more like the "I sit in the corner and act opportunistically"-type. It is true he was Sharkey's "Big Man", but he did not really sparkle with activity.
Varda - maybe if you considered astrophysics, but then again, we learn that the stars were just dew, and the light from the trees etc. does not really seem to equal "energy" in Middle-Earth, but rather something different. She was also much more active in her prime, creating the stars etc., so that was the time of being energetic for her.

[Boromir88]

Drat. I forgot about this.

No worries, busy weekend for many and I was insanely tired yesterday.

Do have your energetic winner picked by 8pm today. :)

Welcome back to the land of the wights Greenie, Legate, et all. :D

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Beorn - “Forceful” might be more accurate, but he certainly have bundles of energy, and is an entry that cannot be ignored.
Gondor – No Gondor was a stagnant culture, even in its youth it was merely a remnant of a glorious past. Now Numenor you could argue, had been an energetic (and innovative) society, but Gondor always seemed to be looking to the past, remembering what once was.
Butterbur- Definitely a contender, though “stressed” would be more accurate.
Thorin – Also a possibility, he definitely had his moments, he probably wasn’t special amongst dwarves, but he certainly was passionate about retrieving his stolen treasure.
Wargs – No, not really. They just seem wolfish.
Beregond – Yes in a way, again maybe “passionate” would be better, but he does display some qualities that might be described as energetic.
Mayor Moneybags - No
Sauron – I can see why some might pick him in this category, but personally I would never use that word to describe him.
Bill Ferny - No
Varda – I really have no opinion about this one

I did not actually forget about this, I just didn't really have time to sit down and have a proper look until now.

[Nogrod]

Back from the wilderness as well but facing a (too) early morning call...

So just a few comments.

I do agree with a few here about Gondor being rather stagnant than energetic.

Many of the choices share the same problem: you could say, in a sense, they are energetic, but that is in no way the first or obviously commanding feature that comes to mind thinking about them, and without a kind of an "aha!" - moment that comes from an innovative POV the picks areb mostly a bit bland...

What would that leave then?

Beorn - Right. Berserk rather, but no one can deny he's energetic when he so wishes.

Butterbur - Right. As someone said "stressed" or busy" rather, but you can't deny him being energetic when he has energy to be that way.

Thorin - Right. Even if you could find a more fitting red tater for him he does fit the description.

Beregond - Like someone said, a quite nice POV (to me the only one that kind of came even near something like an "aha!" -moment).

Mayor Moneybags - Well. Certainly made me smile. Kind of stands out in this company with it's hilariousness, being more or less the opposite in between the mostly mediocre candidates.

Sauron - Like many of the above: right, but yet not exactly energetic. Couldn't Sauron have waited for a better green tater?

[satansaloser2005]

My darling prince finds himself suddenly preoccupied for the bulk of the evening. We shall thus continue discussion on the current taters until his return.

[Gwathagor]

And the winner is:

BEORN.

[satansaloser2005]

Rune may now begin the traditional gloating period. At least it's not Menel again.... :rolleyes:

Boro will return to announce the next round when he deems it proper (read, when he is no longer otherwise engaged).

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I am generous in victory, the next round of lard is on me!

[Boromir88]

Thank you my dear for handling that on short notice. I had an unanticipated obligation late last night, and if only real life was as easy as only feeling responsible for yourself.

But, yes Rune gets on the board, and I'll post the next round at 8pm tonight. I didn't want to do it in the afternoon and only allow 7-ish hours for everyone to send me their choice.

[Boromir88]

Tally

Menel - 2 (Absurd, Handy)
Rune - 1 (Energetic)

----

ROUND 4

Green tater: Malicious (mean, hateful, spiteful)
Judge: Legate

[Boromir88]

ROUND 4

So, I have a feeling Legate is going to put his brain through the grinder to decide this one. :p Malicious:

Huorns
Dol Guldur
Dol Amroth
King of the Dead
Fellbeast
Grima Wormtongue
Mouth of Sauron
Gollum
Eol
Fangorn Forest
Glaurung
Ted Sandyman

(And I will send out everyone's new red taters soon).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Whoa, whoa! Some pretty malicious folks (and not folks) over here. What strikes me in particular (obviously because of its innovative approach) is the idea of Fangorn, and seemingly somebody had had a very similar idea with the Huorns (so we had the same idea of innovative approach here, it seems!). If we are talking the "dark heart of the woods", certainly it isn't that off. Otherwise, I very much like Wormtongue, Mouth of Sauron, Glaurung and Ted Sandyman, and I could be talked into Gollum or Eöl. If people come up with some convincing arguments for anything, I may be swayed - so, go ahead and try your own assessments of the list, I'm most curious about your perception :smokin:

[Galadriel55]

Whoa, whoa! Some pretty malicious folks (and not folks) over here. What strikes me in particular (obviously because of its innovative approach) is the idea of Fangorn, and seemingly somebody had had a very similar idea with the Huorns (so we had the same idea of innovative approach here, it seems!).

That's what I thought too when I first saw the list. And personally I like these two choices the most. Probably because, as you put it, the innovative approach. But how innovative is it if two people gave practically the same answer?

Anyways. I like them both, but I think that Fangorn Forest is mostly malicious because of the Huorns. If you take them away, the forest doesn't want to choke every bit on life in it. But the Huorns do. And the forest used to be quite welcoming before certain things happened. But the Huorns are just Huorns, they're always dark and creepy and malicious.

But that doesn't make Fangorn less malicious when the Huorns are in it. After all, it was a fear to the Rohirrim, and even Celeborn was cautious about it. But in the end it's all because of the Huorns.


From the other answers, I think King of the Dead is my favourite. Just because.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Grima Wormtongue – Probably my favourite, I have no good argument, it just corresponds well with my own view of Grima.
Mouth of Sauron – Definitly a contender, he certainly seem to derive pleasure from others suffering.
Gollum – The obvious choice and I think malice works especially well with the Gollum we encounter in The Hobbit.
Eol – Perhaps, though he clearly dislikes a lot of people, I am not sure I favour him for this title.
Glaurung – Malice is definitely present in Glaurung, but it is almost to mild a term for such wicked creature.
Ted Sandyman – Starts out as just being a stubborn and narrow-minded person, when we first encounter him in the Green Dragon. However there is proper malice in his person, when we meet him again in the Shire after the war has ended. I think that his exchange with Merry and the other hobbits show this clearly.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Anyways. I like them both, but I think that Fangorn Forest is mostly malicious because of the Huorns. If you take them away, the forest doesn't want to choke every bit on life in it. But the Huorns do. And the forest used to be quite welcoming before certain things happened. But the Huorns are just Huorns, they're always dark and creepy and malicious.
Interesting. I had been actually favoring Fangorn over the Huorns, just because it seemed somehow cooler. But I realise I had been thinking of forests as they are. It is not, one has to say, always huorns. It is something bad in some of the huorns that might be considered malicious. Huorns are only awakened trees (or sleeping ents), which is nothing problematic by itself... but they can be bad. (The more I think about it, however, the less and less does the choice of the word "malicious" seem appropriate to me. Still however, the more interesting that two people have chosen it. That's probably what makes it the most intriguing :) )

Grima Wormtongue – Probably my favourite, I have no good argument, it just corresponds well with my own view of Grima.
Gríma is perhaps, on second thought, not really that malicious. He is more like selfish, doing some things to reach his own goals. I am not sure if he takes any special pleasure in, say, putting Éomer into Théoden's disfavour.
Mouth of Sauron – Definitly a contender, he certainly seem to derive pleasure from others suffering.
I would say. I like Mouth of Sauron exactly because of this. He is a strong contender for me, one of the strongest.
Gollum – The obvious choice and I think malice works especially well with the Gollum we encounter in The Hobbit.
I never saw Gollum as really malicious, and even less so in the Hobbit. In LotR, there's possibly that one side to him, otherwise... he is a bit malicious, but sort of "petty-malicious". Just for further reference, somebody should have played some spiders for me on this account. They are malicious, I think, and I believe Gollum is likewise, but we do not really get to see it!
Eol – Perhaps, though he clearly dislikes a lot of people, I am not sure I favour him for this title.
The main thing about him is, probably, that he wasn't really intentinally malicious. He was bitter and all this, but probably not with much intentional malice. Again, had somebody played Mim for me, that could be what I might choose. Or Maeglin, rather than Eöl.
Glaurung – Malice is definitely present in Glaurung, but it is almost to mild a term for such wicked creature.
True. But for me, he is exactly the essence of malice. Like Smaug is a bit, too, but Glaurung is the essence of malice. For me, he is a very strong contender.
Ted Sandyman – Starts out as just being a stubborn and narrow-minded person, when we first encounter him in the Green Dragon. However there is proper malice in his person, when we meet him again in the Shire after the war has ended. I think that his exchange with Merry and the other hobbits show this clearly.
Well said. That's basically it. Another very strong contender for me. Effectively, any arguments especailly in his, Glaurung's or the Mouth's favor might make me decide.

Of the others - Dol Guldur is really out of question, the place itself was in no way malicious (its master would be a different matter!!). Dol Amroth I would not have expected here, or I would perhaps if Aganzir had been playing or something, then perhaps I could see some logic behind it. Fellbeast I like really a lot, but I think it was just, well, an "animal", not really malicious by itself. And King of the Dead, not really. In the movie, he acts a bit like that, but you know what I think about the movies.

[Loslote]

Effectively, any arguments especailly in his, Glaurung's or the Mouth's favor might make me decide.

I would say that Ted Sandyman does not seem particularly selfish to me. Close-minded before Frodo leaves the Shire and drunk with power afterwards, maybe, but I don't know that he best fits malicious.

The Mouth of Sauron could definitely be seen as malicious, but is limited to what his master commands. He does not have a name nor, it seems, much of a sense of self (beyond apparently desiring to be Lord of Isengard), so I don't know that he could achieve as much maliciousness as possible.

Glaurung, on the other hand, is about as malicious as they come. He had the opportunity to kill Turin, but instead played games with him. He also, discovering Nienor's availability, actively sought her out to, again, play malicious games with Turin and Nienor. He, destroyer of armies, had no need of this underhanded trickery, so the fact that he used it indicates that he enjoyed it - malicious to his heart.

So, while all three are good candidates, for me, Glaurung is by far the most malicious.

[Nogrod]

Unless you need to decide right now, I'd like to give my take on the candidates as well Legate. It takes a moment...

[Nogrod]

Okay, I see Legate has already made some of the arguments I thought I'd make, so I'll just concentrate on the "top choices" as they seem to be at the moment...

Ted Sandyman - Well, sadly he reminds me more of these real life characters who have been given very little in birth and are brought up by their peers of the same kind. And those people may actually believe they are right in opposing the elite and their ways, especially if they feel they have been despised by the elite. So I'd say it is not so much malice as feeling of revenge or a pay-back time that sets things right. It might be petty, egoistic, stupid, narrow-minded etc. in content but I'd not say malice as such. In their own environments those people make good company and trustworthy friends; they just hate what is different or "better" than they are...

The Mouth of Sauron & Glaurung - I think there is a pretty fine fight between the two on being someone who embodies malice the best.

Glaurung clearly has the better "track-record" on a grand scale as to how many and malicious deeds he made. He is as malicious one can get.

But also, he is many other things too; like evil, mighty, terrifying, intelligent, cruel, primordial, the very concept of Dragons itself in physical form...

In comparison one could ask what do we know about the Mouth of Sauron? Nothing. Well, nothing short of that he is malicious. And that is the sole factor we kind of know about him... he is described by Tolkien basically just as through malice and there is more or less nothing else into his character we know about.


Well, a tough choice. Glaurung I think beats the Mouth of Sauron in the scope of his malice but he is also other things than that, while the Mouth is nothing but malice to a reader of the LotR.


PS. I iked the idea of both Huorns and the Fangorn as well, but agree that they are problematical choices - like Gollum, Grima and Eöl are.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm... generally, good points about Ted Sandyman (even including Nog's treatise on the nature of Hobbit millers ;) ). Also, the thoughts Nog brings about the Mouth being basically defined only by his malice is close to the spot... but I don't actually think it's entirely correct. The Mouth is defined also by other things, like his proficiency in sorcery, and in fact, now that I recall, his description includes cruelty and cunning, love of dark knowledge and much more. So he is defined also by other things, and therefore Glaurung might fill the idea of malice more, just as it's been said... Hmph. In fact, ha, I was just about to write that Glaurung fits much better, but now that I recall the description of Mouth, I am not so sure anymore. Flip-flopping time :D I might just choose the Mouth because I like him a bit more in some ways. Also, if the Mouth "knew much of the mind of Sauron". But.. okay, after all, Glaurung is Glaurung.

++Glaurung for Malicious

:)

[Boromir88]

My internet is back, so everyone's new red taters I'm sending out now...

And excellent convo on malice. Tough decisions indeed. :D

Edit: And I cross with Legate.

The malicious one be...Lottie.

[Nogrod]

Four rounds, always soo close... but no points yet. :)

This calls for the Finnish "sisu". :D


And yes, Glaurung was a good pick.

[Boromir88]

Tally

Menel - 2 (Absurd, Handy)
Rune - 1 (Energetic)
Lottie - 1 (Malicious)

----

ROUND 5

Green tater: Classic (Timeless, definitive, vintage)
Judge: Lommy

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Yeah, I feel the same way. Mine seemed to have a pretty good shot at this one, but in the end I would probably have gone for Glaurung as well. At least it is not a choice I can in any way object to.

[Loslote]

The malicious one be...Lottie.

Huzzah! :D Should I only get to win one, malicious is probably the most fun. :p

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'm not surprised the two of you, Nog and Lottie, were the ones owning the taters in question. ;) By the way, who were the two connected minds coming up with Fangorn and huorns? :)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I might as well come clean and declare that Ted Sandyman was mine, and I really disagree with Nogrod's analysis of him. I think if I had been able to post a bit more, I might have been able to make him a serious contender, but RL came in the way.

I don't know if Nog was serious or just trying to harm an opposing candidate, in which preindustrial society is a miller ostracized from the elite? Granted they are not semi-nobility like one could argue the Took's are, but they are definitely well above your average gardener and what not.

[Loslote]

I don't know if Nog was serious or just trying to harm an opposing candidate, in which preindustrial society is a miller ostracized from the elite? Granted they are not semi-nobility like one could argue the Took's are, but they are definitely well above your average gardener and what not.

Hardly! The Shire wasn't preindustrial, it was agricultural. Hobbits love plants. They do not love mills. Mills are not the hub of their society. A miller would by no means be above a gardener.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Agricultural and preindustrial is not opposites, nor mutual exclusive. I am not suggesting that the Shire was a simple society, it was quite clearly a complex society, but also clearly preindustrial.

Preindustrial societies were not unfamiliar with mechanical devices, and some of these were driven by inanimate energy, like waterwheels, windmills and ships, but most of them depended on human or animal energy for their operation. The industrial breakthrough is mainly defined by the scale of which it freed production from its dependence on animal and human muscle. This is something that clearly has not taken place in the Shire.

The lack of modern industries made agriculture by far the most important source of wealth in preindustrial societies, something you rightly point out is the case in the Shire.

It is my opinion that a miller in the Shire would never, like a gardener, become a servant of another hobbit. However revered a gardener might be, there can be no doubt that socially, as a group, they belong to the lower classes of society. Samwise ends up being a fantastic example of social mobility, but it would be folly to suggest that he is representative of your average gardener.

With both Samwise and Ted Sandyman there are exceptional circumstances that changes their fortunes. Samwise gets tangle up in the affairs of the great, whilst Ted remain in Hobbiton during a (from most peoples point of view) hostile takeover. In the end Ted seizes to be a miller, and ends up working for Saruman, during his attempt to industrialize the Shire. Samwise ends up being the mayor, and at this point you can sertainly argue that Samwise has higher standing than Ted.

However at this point we are no longer comparing Ted the miller with Samwise the gardener. Now we are comparing Ted the traitor and industrial worker, with Samwise the war hero and mayor.

[Loslote]

Agricultural and preindustrial is not opposites, nor mutual exclusive. I am not suggesting that the Shire was a simple society, it was quite clearly a complex society, but also clearly preindustrial.

Preindustrial societies were not unfamiliar with mechanical devices, and some of these were driven by inanimate energy, like waterwheels, windmills and ships, but most of them depended on human or animal energy for their operation. The industrial breakthrough is mainly defined by the scale of which it freed production from its dependence on animal and human muscle. This is something that clearly has not taken place in the Shire.

Ahhhhh! I see. I was taking 'preindustrial' in an entirely different sense than you intended it - I read the connotations that 'preindustrial' meant 'on the verge of becoming industrial and moving in that direction', whereas you seem to have meant it simply as 'not yet industrial'.

The lack of modern industries made agriculture by far the most important source of wealth in preindustrial societies, something you rightly point out is the case in the Shire.

It is my opinion that a miller in the Shire would never, like a gardener, become a servant of another hobbit. However revered a gardener might be, there can be no doubt that socially, as a group, they belong to the lower classes of society. Samwise ends up being a fantastic example of social mobility, but it would be folly to suggest that he is representative of your average gardener.

But even before any social mobility occurs, is Sam not Frodo's friend? I don't know that forcing Ted Sandyman and Sam into social castes by their occupation is entirely appropriate. Their social circles seem to me to be less dictated by their occupations and more by their personalities and interests.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Oh my, is this thread turning to some meta-discussion about pre-industrial societies? :p Well, let me just point out one thing.

It is my opinion that a miller in the Shire would never, like a gardener, become a servant of another hobbit. However revered a gardener might be, there can be no doubt that socially, as a group, they belong to the lower classes of society. Samwise ends up being a fantastic example of social mobility, but it would be folly to suggest that he is representative of your average gardener.

I agree 100% about everything you have said, Rune, or would have agreed, if there weren't for one explicit quote from Tolkien which says pretty clearly what the status of the gardeners was. I am sure we all know that part.

Faramir and Frodo:
"Your land must be a realm of peace and content, and there must gardeners be in high honour."
"Not all is well there," said Frodo, "but certainly gardeners are honoured."
I get the picture that gardener is something a bit special in the Shire. Not that special, for sure, but given the hobbits' love for all that grows etc., maybe the gardeners enjoyed a bit more respect than they would in a similar society in our history. Just as a remark :)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Ahhhhh! I see. I was taking 'preindustrial' in an entirely different sense than you intended it - I read the connotations that 'preindustrial' meant 'on the verge of becoming industrial and moving in that direction', whereas you seem to have meant it simply as 'not yet industrial'.

Fair play, when talking history I tend to generalise. So I used preindustrial in the broadest of forms, also because this is the use I have encountered the most often.

But even before any social mobility occurs, is Sam not Frodo's friend? I don't know that forcing Ted Sandyman and Sam into social castes by their occupation is entirely appropriate. Their social circles seem to me to be less dictated by their occupations and more by their personalities and interests.
I agree that maybe it is a stretch trying to apply our social terms on Hobbits, but isn't it fun?

I am not sure about personalities having greater influence than in our society, on the face of it, these things seem quite similar. However I would need to reread the books with this in mind, before making my mind up.



I agree 100% about everything you have said, Rune, or would have agreed, if there weren't for one explicit quote from Tolkien which says pretty clearly what the status of the gardeners was. I am sure we all know that part.

Faramir and Frodo:

I get the picture that gardener is something a bit special in the Shire. Not that special, for sure, but given the hobbits' love for all that grows etc., maybe the gardeners enjoyed a bit more respect than they would in a similar society in our history. Just as a remark :)

I read that very passage as late as yesterday, and it does not change my view on things. Certain professions will always be held in high regard, even if their social status is low(maybe "social status" isn't the best term, but I hope you understand what I am getting at). You see this in every society... I would argue that soldiers and parking attendants come from much the same social group, but one is honored much more than the other. Beregond for example might be respected, but in no way would he ever be regarded as part of the elite.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I read that very passage as late as yesterday, and it does not change my view on things. Certain professions will always be held in high regard, even if their social status is low(maybe "social status" isn't the best term, but I hope you understand what I am getting at). You see this in every society... I would argue that soldiers and parking attendants come from much the same social group, but one is honored much more than the other. Beregond for example might be respected, but in no way would he ever be regarded as part of the elite.

Yep, I guess. The soldier example is actually pretty good one, that's basically how I imagine the gardeners to differ. However, and that's what we are getting at and what I believe Nog's post and Lottie later were aiming at as well, even this means a difference: gardener and miller apparently come from similar class background, but with the difference that the gardener is respected in some special way, whereas miller is not in any special way (which can then open door to what Nog had said, in certain circumstances). But whatever, I am by no means willing to make this a "How did class relationships work in the Shire" thread...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

. But whatever, I am by no means willing to make this a "How did class relationships work in the Shire" thread...
Why not?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Why not?

Simply because it's not called that ;) But I don't care, really...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

OK, my parting shot will be this: Sam could never have become a miller even if he wanted, it was quite simply beyond his means.

Anyways, good choice with Glaurung... :smokin:

[Nogrod]

Yay! The best Taters To Taters discussion so far! (I mean, yes, not too much on topic of the game but I do love discussions spreading from an instant just like that)

To be honest, I was not thinking of it that deep into the social structure of the ME as I just had to make an argument to drop one contender off the list where my own was to try and steer it a 50-50 chance for my candidate (and it was hard to argue against Glaurunbg being malicious :rolleyes:)...

But where I was coming to the discussion was this: Bilbo (and therefore Frodo) was thought to be an outrageously rich person and having queer habits & interests - so being outside the local conservative community in every way. And therefore all those involved with them (Sam, Pip, Merry) would bé looked with suspicion as well. With resentment even as they were doing so well.

When they came back you see the four hobbits coming with all the strange costumes, mighty weapons, expensive-looking gadgets... and worldly and noble in their carriage of themselves... so it would have been an easy target for resentment, something that could awake a sense of righteousness while standoing up against those strange-ones who hadn't shared the common tragedy - or who looked like they knew better and were better than you - so not so much malice but a pay-back, or a fight for one's identity and honour.

Yeah, I know that might be a bit far-fetched, but remember I had an argument to make against Ted Sandyman being malicious as he was easier to argue against than Glaurung. :)

[Boromir88]

Yay! The best Taters To Taters discussion so far! (I mean, yes, not too much on topic of the game but I do love discussions spreading from an instant just like that)


I know this is fantastic! :D

Now as far as Ted Sandyman, I've always imagined if there was a modern stereotype he'd fit, it would be the ultimate internet troll. "Nah uh, did you see it? It can't be real if you didn't see it!" "Your uncle is cracked, and you're cracked for listening!" Not so much malicious, just someone who'd be very hard to be in the company of...

But then he does become a turncoat, although I liked the previous points on Grima (and think the same applies to Ted). That is, Grima's malice was fueled for personal gain and better social standing...Glaurung and The Mouth of Sauron's malice was right down to simple satisfaction and cruel enjoyment.

[Nogrod]

But then he does become a turncoat, although I liked the previous points on Grima (and think the same applies to Ted). That is, Grima's malice was fueled for personal gain and better social standing...Glaurung and The Mouth of Sauron's malice was right down to simple satisfaction and cruel enjoyment.Very much agreed!

PS. Rune: your PM box is full...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Very much agreed!

PS. Rune: your PM box is full...

I know, I like it this way. (It is taken care of now)

[Galadriel55]

By the way, who were the two connected minds coming up with Fangorn and huorns? :)

I did huorns. And if I was able to post more I would have convinced you to pick them. :p


It's the second time I do it. Last game Nog and I played Elwing and Earendil together. This game Huorns and Fangorn. I'm curious about who me matie is this time. :D

[Boromir88]

Lommy these are the "Classic" taters to choose from:

Taniquetil
The Void
Galadriel
Elendil the Tall
Gorgoroth
The Noldor
Samwise Gamgee
The Last Alliance
Gandalf the White

And exactly like Huorn - Fangorn, it appears 2 of you are on the same wavelength this round:

Mandos
Doom of Mandos

:smokin:

[Gwathagor]

"Classic" is a hard one. I guess it works if you apply it to the characters...Gandalf, Elendil, Galadriel, and Samwise.

But the Void?

[Nogrod]

"Classic" is a hard one. I guess it works if you apply it to the characters...Gandalf, Elendil, Galadriel, and Samwise.

But the Void?I would actually see this the other way around... How could you call persons like Elendil, Galadriel, or Samwise classics? Yes they could be classics in the more superficial sense that they have become "classics" by the works of Tolkien, but which are the real classics? I mean those that are what they are through the ages?

The Void fits perfectly as so many creation myths from the Babylonians to the Vikings tell about the primordial abyss or void that was conquered by the Gods to make order and the Middle-Earth for men to live. Like what was the Ainulindalë: creating life and order from chaos by the power of the Gods.

Or to take another example: Hades was both the name of the god and the place where the spirits dwelled in ancient mythology - and it was neither evil or good but it just was. And Hades was one of the most important in the pantheon, and he has a wife dwelling there, Persephone, "the formidable, venerable majestic queen of the shades, who carries into effect the curses of men upon the souls of the dead" - sounds like Vairë? Aka Mandos fits perfectly into the classics as he / it is just a continuation of a more general, classic myth.


The Last Alliance? The Armageddon, the primordial fight between the Good and the Evil - and one which then historically was not the Apocalypse but only a sequence in the historical time, a changing into a different world? It is such a classical feature in the literature - and always kind of not standing to it's name - like it doesn't in the Tolkien Universe (so a classical way of interpreting it!).

Well, giving in with one character as well; Gandalf then... the resurrected, the one who comes through death to save the others? That is soo classic from Osiris, Baal, Jesus... A true classic as well.

[Meneltarmacil]

And exactly like Huorn - Fangorn, it appears 2 of you are on the same wavelength this round:

Mandos
Doom of Mandos

:smokin:

I think you could make a case for Elendil/The Last Alliance as well.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I am not too keen on:
Samwise Gamgee
Gandalf the White
and
Gorgoroth

but it seems fair points can be made about the rest.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Gandalf, Sam and Galadriel are probably classic in the same way. Of those, I would possibly think the two Gs to be a bit better. After all, they had much more time to be around to be classic. Though personally, I don't think you can call a person "classic". Unless it was Gollum. I would call HIM classic, but hardly anyone else.

For the same reason, Elendil, who is probably classic figure in Númenorean history, does not go, otherwise I like him. And the same goes for Mandos. He is just another of the Valar, not different from Manwë or Ulmo. They are classic in their own way, more than "normal" people, but if that's enough...

The Doom of Mandos is "classic" in several ways. It's most of all, a "classic requisite of a classic tale" for Middle-Earthians (like when you say, Epic of Gilgamesh or Odyssey here), but also it is "classic" in the same way it is similar to e.g. some ancient sagas from our world: all this being bound by fate is a very classic aspect of lots of these Greek and terrible Nordic sagas and all.

The Void... despite Nog's argumentation, I'm not really buying it. Taniquetil could be considered classic, certainly more than all the other places. From all the places, I would choose it.

I would, however, argue for Gorgoroth being classic. At least, I would not be so fast to dismiss it as some people have. It is the land of evil, the place of the classic battle (of the classic Last Alliance, but that's another thing), and the place of the classic ending of the classic tale from Lord of the Rings. So from in-Middle-Earth perspective (let's say Fourth Age perspective - or our, Seventh Age perspective? :) ), I would say it's valid.

Like I said, the Last Alliance is definitely a classic. Again, it is a classic requisite of a classic tale - like the fall of Troy in our world, let's say.

And the Noldor, who are undisputably classic requisites of a classic tale, and not of just one: they are pretty classic. There isn't probably anything more... "everyday" in all the old sagas than the Noldor.

[Nogrod]

Legate: are you seriously arguing that the dwelling of the dead (Mandos) or the primordial state of non-existence (The Void) are not classics?

Mandos even fits the classic tradition of literary mythology having many facets copied straight from the myth of Hades (like the important god running the place with his wife, the place not being good or evil but neutral etc.). Soo classic!

The Void as well - even if it doesn't have a one as well known classical piece of literary art from which to stem from - is both as widely spread throughout the world-mythologies, referred to in classical literature, and just soo awesome!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Legate: are you seriously arguing that the dwelling of the dead (Mandos) or the primordial state of non-existence (The Void) are not classics?

Mandos even fits the classic tradition of literary mythology having many facets copied straight from the myth of Hades (like the important god running the place with his wife, the place not being good or evil but neutral etc.). Soo classic!

The Void as well - even if it doesn't have a one as well known classical piece of literary art from which to stem from - is both as widely spread throughout the world-mythologies, referred to in classical literature, and just soo awesome!

The Void is Void. I have no problem with that, but it is rather... lame. It's empty, after all.

I would not argue against Mandos as the place. However, Mandos, at least in this case, is not a dwelling. The dwelling is Halls of Mandos. Mandos is the Vala (however it should be named "Námo", but I guess that's omitment on Boro's part). But trust me, this is the person, not the dwelling.

[Nogrod]

The Void is Void. I have no problem with that, but it is rather... lame. It's empty, after all.Sad there is no "like"-button at the 'Downs. I'd definitively push it for this.

I would not argue against Mandos as the place. However, Mandos, at least in this case, is not a dwelling. The dwelling is Halls of Mandos. Mandos is the Vala (however it should be named "Námo", but I guess that's omitment on Boro's part). But trust me, this is the person, not the dwelling.
Well... I'm not sure you are in position to judge whether "Mandos" here is or is not the dwelling. That I think is Lommy's job.

And like you say: the god is Námo, not Mandos - as Mandos is the place. So there are better reasons to judge it as the place than as the god (and if someone happens to have some related taters in their hands, well it is not the bussiness of this round to talk about them - or anyone to reveal their taters before they are played and the round is over... :)).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Anyway, for that matter, back to the main discussion - I don't see why the assumption seems to be that "classic" equals "classic in real-world mythology". I think "classic in Middle-Earth mythology" is equally appropriate, if not more. That's why the Last Alliance, the Doom of Mandos, Noldor, even Gandalf or Elendil the Tall, or in my argument Gorgoroth, seem much more valid to me than any of the rest.

[Nogrod]

I don't see why the assumption seems to be that "classic" equals "classic in real-world mythology". I think "classic in Middle-Earth mythology" is equally appropriate, if not more. I guess that again is for Lommy to decide.

I can push my interpretation and you can push yours. She decides.

And continuing of doing just that:

I think that the word classic fits far better to things that are in the ME but still have all this classicality of our real-world tradition behind them, they are like "living instances" of the classical things, concepts, places, tales... maybe even persons.

To me it's harder to see what a ME-mythology classic would be with such little to go for... I mean we don't know what tales the easterlings told to their children, on what places or events the Haradian poets wrote about... which were the canonical myths of the first age men and were they given over to the second and third age generations and how can you track a trace of it in the fourth-age Gondorian song for a feast?

[Thinlómien]

I'm not impressed by

Taniquetil, Gorgoroth - might be classic, but two of the few places in Arda I never felt any kind of fondness of. There could be an argument made for Taniquetil being "timeless" but that's a bit lame pun (Maedhros being handy was much better!)
The Void - wouldn't something like "empty" have fit this one better?
Samwise Gamgee - okay, he is the classic hero in a way, and he has become a classic character in his own right, but... Just calling Sam a classic would sound somehow derogatory, and he never was a favourite of mine anyway.
Gandalf the White - I feel that the specification that it's Gandalf THE WHITE quite effectively disqualifies all the arguments you could make. Gandalf as a whole might be timeless or classic. And as for "vintage" - despite the fact that applying the word to Gandalf does amuse me - that would be a much better description of Gandalf the Grey. ;)


I kind of like

The Noldor - theirs is a classic story, and they are, as immortal Elves, pretty timeless. Also, for me they would be a classic favourite people in Arda. But still, not as good a red tater as some.
Galadriel, Elendil the Tall, Mandos - if you've got to call a character classic, here's a few notable choices. Galadriel, my and many other people's classic favourite character. Also, on the Third Age she's one of the few classic (or timeless or vintage ;)) characters that remain from the earlier ages. Elendil, who was so epic that no one after him was given the same name even though we have a host of Berens, Túrins and Tuors in the later days? Definitely a classic (but no a classic name, har har). And Mandos is quite a classic character and timeless (although I believe it's the Halls of Mandos that are described as timeless and would thus be more appropriate). Stilln none of these are as good as tmy two favourites.


My favourites

The Last Alliance - the classic tale indeed, and what a classic tale it is in the time of the Lord of the Rings, it is the epic story that is told and referred to, the story in which the whole story of the Ring is rooted, something which was classic in its own time because in the good old times the Elves and the Men used to be allies. I like this one a lot.
Doom of Mandos - an even more classic tale (hey come on how much more classic can you get than the tale of original sin?). However, I think the Doom of Mandos ended up being a little less definitive and timeless than it was supposed to be. ;) In any case I like this one, and as a story I personally prefer it to the military and pompous Last Alliance.


Hard times. Wavering between the two... (but will consider arguments for others too, but they'd better be pretty darn good). Won't be making my choice until in a few hours so feel free to argue!



edit: xed with two people who almost remind me of Monty Python!

[Thinlómien]

Well... I'm not sure you are in position to judge whether "Mandos" here is or is not the dwelling. That I think is Lommy's job. I thought all the time it's the vala, but I guess it could be either. Even the normal Apples to Apples cards have stuff with several meanings in them, so I see no need to argue about meanings here! :p Anyway, it doesn't make a difference really, because there are still better taters around.

I don't see why the assumption seems to be that "classic" equals "classic in real-world mythology". I think "classic in Middle-Earth mythology" is equally appropriate, if not more.I think both ways of looking at it are equally appropriate, just as is looking at it from the perpective of what is classic to me personally. Funny, I don't think there'd be such an argument over the definition of the word if the green tater was, say... "funny." ;)

[Nogrod]

Funny, I don't think there'd be such an argument over the definition of the word if the green tater was, say... "funny." ;)We actually might have arranged it... if we would hope to thusly aid our own candidate to come nearer picking by the judge. Something we clearly fell short this time. :)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I guess that again is for Lommy to decide.

I can push my interpretation and you can push yours. She decides.
Sure. What do you think we are doing all the time? I think that goes without saying :smokin:

To me it's harder to see what a ME-mythology classic would be with such little to go for... I mean we don't know what tales the easterlings told to their children, on what places or events the Haradian poets wrote about... which were the canonical myths of the first age men and were they given over to the second and third age generations and how can you track a trace of it in the fourth-age Gondorian song for a feast?
Sure. But then again, we of course have some vague idea of what is "classic" in the "West-Middleearthian" concept (all the tales we know from the books). And when you say that we do not know what the Easterlings were telling their kids, this could be countered with saying that our real-world concept of "classic" (as we present ones are more or less coming from the cultural context stemming from the European civilisation) is born with the same flaw. I believe you would agree if I say that we consider classic the concepts present in especially Greek and Roman mythology, with a bit of Near-Eastern flavor especially due to the influence of Christianity etc., then various other native European (Germanic, Scandinavian, Slavic...) mythology concepts. But we probably don't find the concepts found in, say, Native American or African mythology to be "classic", unless they happen to be close to "ours".

So much for the meta-discussion :)

As for Lommy's musings, if I were to choose one of even the "lesser ones", I still consider Noldor pretty nice. Out of the two big ones, I would probably prefer the Doom of Mandos to the Last Alliance, simply because it has all the big tragic elements with fate and doom - and maybe a hint of timelessness can be seen in the original power of the curse. Or maybe it is because about the Last Alliance, we do not know as much, in fact, as about this one.

[Nogrod]

we of course have some vague idea of what is "classic" in the "West-Middleearthian" concept (all the tales we know from the books). And when you say that we do not know what the Easterlings were telling their kids, this could be countered with saying that our real-world concept of "classic" (as we present ones are more or less coming from the cultural context stemming from the European civilisation) is born with the same flaw. I believe you would agree if I say that we consider classic the concepts present in especially Greek and Roman mythology, with a bit of Near-Eastern flavor especially due to the influence of Christianity etc., then various other native European (Germanic, Scandinavian, Slavic...) mythology concepts. But we probably don't find the concepts found in, say, Native American or African mythology to be "classic", unless they happen to be close to "ours".I actually do agree with you. But I had to try and present a different interpretation to help my tater succeed... which was clearly doomed to fail as Lommy didn't think my tater to be a good pick in anycase, whichever the major interpretation. :)

That said, I actually agree with you and Lommy that the Doom of Mandos is a better suiting candidate for the classic - while also agreeing the Last Alliance to be a good one as well.

[Thinlómien]

I'll go with the

++Doom of Mandos

simply because I like it more as a(n elemnt of a) story, and because that way I can nod at those who played Mandos, the Noldor and Galadriel, all of which were suggestions I liked.

[Boromir88]

So who's the classic one?

Legate. :)

[Boromir88]

Have to do this early again, but as always until 8pm EST (Midnight GMT) tomorrow to send me your choice.

Tally

Menel - 2 (Absurd, Handy)
Rune - 1 (Energetic)
Lottie - 1 (Malicious)
Legate - 1 (Classic)

---

ROUND 6

Green tater: Famous (well-known, important, distinguished)
Judge: Lottie

[Boromir88]

I remembered this morning again was spent with hooliganising teenagers, and now I have a wedding event to attend. So I will open the next round up when I get back (probably sometime around midnight EST)

[Nogrod]

So who's the classic one?

Legate. :)Haha! Now I understand why Legate was so keen to downplay Mandos being the place! :D

Well won! *bows*

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

:) Thank'ee, Nog. I'm happy about this achievement, because during the first rounds I was having the feeling that my cards can't really have much of a success. The green taters were just horrible for my selection of cards.

On a different note, with all those double-postings (Fangorn and Huorns, Mandos and Doom of Mandos), I wonder what nice pair are we going to get for the upcoming round...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I am a bit sad I missed out on the last round, but unfortunately I could not find time to get online for more than half a minute at the time this weekend.

[Boromir88]

As far as the next round goes, long crazy weekend again. Give me an hour or so to get everything situated and next round will be up.

[Boromir88]

ROUND 6

Lottie, here's your selection of famous:

Gwaihir
Tol-in-Gaurhoth
Mordor
Feanor
Bard
Great Goblin
Shadowfax
Two Trees of Valinor
The Prancing Pony
Turin
Glorfindel
Elrond

*Edit: 8pm monday will be the start of round 7.

[Galadriel55]

I would go for Tol-in-Gaurhoth, as the most famous thing on the Downs. I do remember one thing, though:

Tol-In-Gaurhoth is Sauron's keep, not a werewolf game...

It's so fun to treat it as a werewolf game, though.


As for the others, which are also good but not as funny:

Gwaihir - he's the lord of the Great Eagles, man!
Mordor - come on, even Bree-folk have heard of it.
Feanor - oh, you mean the guy who carved those shiny things that started the great mess that ended up making the legendarium a score of books longer than it could have been?
Bard - you get some credit for killing a dragon, of course.
Great Goblin - he's Great. Need I say more?
Shadowfax - well, I can't say he's exactly famous, but he would be if ME was a horse racing show.
Two Trees of Valinor - well... they're known and important certainly, but they just don't sound well with famous.
The Prancing Pony - haha, this one's actually quite good. The famous inn!
Turin - infamous, more like it. But I love the pun, and really, he was quite famous,first as just Turin, then as Gorthol, then as Mormegil... it's a pity that the fame went to his head...
Glorfindel - famous? Great, yes. But famous?

[Boromir88]

Adding Elrond to the list.

[Loslote]

Gwaihir - Oh, that eagle guy? Meh. He'd've been more famous if he'd flown to Mordor and dropped in the Ring and saved Frodo the trouble of walking there. :P
Tol-in-Gaurhoth - ...nicely done, sir.
Mordor - You mean that place that's not Angband?
Feanor - Fairly good.
Bard - Decent, but not, I'd say, quite up to the level of Feanor, the other submission in the 'famous *people* category.
Great Goblin - He himself is not so very famous outside of his caves, I'd say.
Shadowfax - Not famous necessarily, though he ought to be.
Two Trees of Valinor - Again, glorious, but not necessarily famous.
The Prancing Pony - There are more famous pubs, but I do like the idea behind the submission.
Turin - Again, decent, but eclipsed by Feanor.
Glorfindel - He wasn't even famous enough to make it into the movie. ;)
Elrond - Yeeeeeeeeees....but not so much as Feanor.

So, for me, it's between the funny, Downsian play (Tol-in-Gaurhoth), the real, famous person play (Feanor) and the funny Tolkieny play (The Prancing Pony). I'd be open to people making arguments for why the other four characters who rival Feanor should be chosen instead of him, with more likelihood of success going to Turin or Elrond.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Gwaihir - I side with Lottie saying that had he dropped the Ring to Mount Doom, he'd have been famous, but tough luck :D
Tol-in-Gaurhoth - I would have saved this as a game-pun from more appropriate tater, personally. There would certainly be more fitting taters for it.
Mordor - certainly not disagreeing.
Feanor - nor with this, though "infamous" might be even better.
Bard - I think he's so sadly neglected, poor second to Aragorn when talking of returned kings. I would give him the credit.
Great Goblin - this actually made me laugh, a "great" goblin indeed :D One cannot doubt it from the title!
Shadowfax - meh, just a horse
Two Trees of Valinor - certainly. Just like Mordor or Feanor or Elrond. The problem is, maybe there are too many of those "simply famous".
The Prancing Pony - I really really like this idea. Again, in the "realistic" scale, it wasn't THAT famous (in Middle-Earth, very small percentage of people knew it - certainly less than Feanor or Two Trees), but in its area, it definitely was...
Turin - also more "infamous" than famous, I would say. I would pick Bard over him, only to give him the credit.
Glorfindel - certainly not. Sorry, but if you get kicked out on behalf of some Arwen... nowadays, his horse is possibly more famous than him! And that's a poor score.
Elrond - sure, but see above.

If I were to argue for any of these, I would support Bard the Sadly Neglected, Goblin the Great or Prancing Pony. However, thinking of it, if we wanted to be punctual, probably the most famous by the Third Age was Mordor. I mean: most of the people in Middle-Earth had at least heard about it, while even though e.g. Feanor is certainly famous, the Hobbits (!) had probably no idea who he was. Of course, in the First Age, everyone would know him. But yeah, that idea about Mordor... because imagine: everyone, even Hobbits, or even Easterlings and Southrons would know him, whereas they would not (possibly) know about e.g. the Two Trees etc. So actually, maybe Mordor is the best.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

The ones I like is:

Elrond - Quite famous, at least the people of Gondor have heard of him. But since they are a quite informed people, that know their history, this is perhaps not so exceptional?
Turin - I like this one, because Turin became famous on several occasions, under different names. For this he is perhaps my favorite.
Feanor -His skill was certainly renowned, and his actions shaped the history of Middle-earth. It just seem that posterity had more focus on people like Turin and Beren (I know he is not on the list)
Mordor - I thought Galadriel55 made an excellent point about including Mordor: Even the bree-folk has heard of it. I think it speaks volumes that this place was known, not just to people in its vicinity, or to elf-friends such as Frodo, but also a name known to the uninformed people of the north... also we know that the people of Harad had heard of it.
and
Tol-in-Gaurhoth: I must be the only one who does not find this entry funny... Anyways I have included it on my list because I think that the fortress in it self is deserving as a contender. It might not have been Angband, but it had werewolves and freaking vampires!!! Places like that are bound to become legendary.

[Meneltarmacil]

I'd have to say the best choices are Tol-in-Gaurhoth (inside joke), Mordor (everyone knows it, everyone fears it), and Feanor (source of many legends).

[Nogrod]

First of all it is pretty clear that any thing that has been famous for only one age is prone to be a lot less famous than one that has inspired two or three ages of living beings with their fame.

Secondly, being known or "famous" in the Middle Earth ("The Outer Lands" as they are properly called) is peanuts when comparing to being famous and renowned not only in the ME but also in Valinor.


Combining the two points basically means Fëanor and The Two Trees of Valinor are the only decent contenders...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

What Nogrod is saying is obviously flawed, but I have no doubt that it serves his own purposes.

Is Handel more famous than Bieber just because he lived centuries earlier? Obviously you cannot make such ridiculous and simplistic rules, well you can, but it is stupid.

Then he starts separating the Tolkien's creations into different classes, apparently your opinion matters less if you are from the wrong side of the track... very nice Nogrod.

Combining the two silly points he makes, leaves you with only two contenders of which only one is deserving of such a status.

[Nogrod]

C'mon Rune, even Legate agrees with me on this!
The Prancing Pony - I really really like this idea. Again, in the "realistic" scale, it wasn't THAT famous (in Middle-Earth, very small percentage of people knew it - certainly less than Feanor or Two Trees):)

Any idea why he chose Fëanor and the Two Trees of Valinor as examples there while talking about the Prancing Pony? Well because they are "realistically" THAT famous indeed.

Actually they are the ones that spring to mind immediately when you try to think who or what is famous for real...

:smokin:

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

C'mon Rune, even Legate agrees with me on this!:)

Any idea why he chose Fëanor and the Two Trees of Valinor as examples there while talking about the Prancing Pony? Well because they are "realistically" THAT famous indeed.

Actually they are the ones that spring to mind immediately when you try to think who or what is famous for real...

:smokin:

I see no indication that the Two Trees of Valinor was widely known outside elven-circles in the third age.

I know that this is a somewhat hollow statement, since this sort of scrutiny can be applied to everybody on the list.

It all depends on how one choses to read the word "famous".... I would never call the sun famous, but I am fairly sure that most people that walk this earth, know of it. The trees would have been known to many in their time, but I guess not to all, some would only be familiar with their light. After they died, I doubt they were well known to any other than the Eldar.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

C'mon Rune, even Legate agrees with me on this!:)

Any idea why he chose Fëanor and the Two Trees of Valinor as examples there while talking about the Prancing Pony? Well because they are "realistically" THAT famous indeed.

Actually they are the ones that spring to mind immediately when you try to think who or what is famous for real...

:smokin:
True, of course. But I have also said:

But yeah, that idea about Mordor... because imagine: everyone, even Hobbits, or even Easterlings and Southrons would know him, whereas they would not (possibly) know about e.g. the Two Trees etc. So actually, maybe Mordor is the best.

:smokin:

[Loslote]

I would say there would be more opportunity for fame in the First Age, not because of class differences, but because the various realms were less fragmented. Heroes of Rohan would not be known in the other realms - but, beside the obvious exception (Gondolin) the realms of the First Age kept fairly well abreast of the news from the other realms.

This actually makes the argument for Mordor more persuasive, though, since Mordor's fame unifies all of those fragmented realms in fear. I'd probably be inclined at this point to say my top two are Tol-in-Gaurhoth and Mordor - surprise twist!

[Loslote]

Alright. Just to not give in too easily to the trump card...

++Mordor

[satansaloser2005]

The handsome and illustrious Prince Boromir, Guardian of the Taters, wishes to inform you all that he will not be present for this night's festivities, and bids you all a good evening and dreams of tater soup.

In other news, Rune wins again. :rolleyes:

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

This win was bit of a surprise, but a welcome one. I was afraid that I had wasted one of the better "cards".

Anyways is there another round in the making?

[Boromir88]

This win was bit of a surprise, but a welcome one. I was afraid that I had wasted one of the better "cards".

Anyways is there another round in the making?

Hopefully Friday I can resume again.

Sorry everyone, just a massive nightmare of a week...capped off by someone rear-ending me when I was at a stop sign (I'm fine/not injured...but other driver didn't have his insurance card, so I've had to some digging, just so I could find his auto insurance, policy, get an estimate, have them pay for it...all that fun stuff).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hopefully Friday I can resume again.

Sorry everyone, just a massive nightmare of a week...capped off by someone rear-ending me when I was at a stop sign (I'm fine/not injured...but other driver didn't have his insurance card, so I've had to some digging, just so I could find his auto insurance, policy, get an estimate, have them pay for it...all that fun stuff).

Sounds like quite a nightmarish week, Boro. Good that you're all right, and hopefully our future round can be a good cheer-up for you after all this :)

[satansaloser2005]

We shall thus endeavor to be that much more entertaining come the next round, my poor prince. *nuzzles you*

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Aw, Boro. That's terrible. Hope that the rest of your week -- all two days of it, that is -- goes much better.

[Loslote]

Just a note: My area is about to be hit by a rather large storm - you might have heard of it; it's hitting about all of the East Coast - and while I'll be fine, they are predicting a lot of power outages, so I might not be able to submit Red Taters and participate for a while. It might not happen, but I thought I should warn you all.

[Boromir88]

Ok...some bad news. Well let's start with the fortunate news that Boston managed to avoid the brunt of the monster storm so it wasn't very bad here. Also all other lovely wights on the east coast (as far as I'm aware) are indeed safe.

Bad news being, I've been swamped with work stuffs and more has been added on (never acknowledge you are still awake 9:30 pm when you're asked "are you awake? I have a favor to ask" and it involves work things...it can't ever be good if it comes after 6pm). It's nothing that needs to be finished immediately, tonight, which means lots of starbucks double-shot espressos (good) but it is aaaaa lllllotttt of added things I did not have on my plate previously (not good).

So, summary I will no longer be able to continue running this, or having much of an internet social life from now until April (well not including the holiday period). If anyone is interested and willing to take this up, I will be more than glad to send you what I've done.

[Galadriel55]

Oh, Boro... That sounds awful! Half a year of this! :( I hope it goes by fast so that you can get a breath again.