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GandaIf The White
06-12-2001, 05:07 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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I just read this part about the Teleri and Feanor. Why didnt they just give Feanor the boats if they knew he could overthrow them. This makes me think that Feanor is worse than Melkor <img src=mad.gif ALT=">:"> .

I was so glad when everything was perfect in the book.. Feanor could have just let the Valar destroy Melkor. But I do kind-of agree with Feanor on that part.. the Valar should have attacked him again or atleast done something other than just wait and let more elves be killed. <img src=frown.gif ALT=":("> Tulkas could have overthrown him...

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000064>GandaIf The White</A> at: 6/12/01 7:07:48 pm

The Watcher in the Water
06-12-2001, 05:51 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Teleri

Just my thoughts on the first point... I believe the main reason the Teleri did not hand over the boats is akin to the reason that some people will not forsake their homeland to invaders. Many people do not just give up their possesions even in the face off overwhelming hardship and so forth.

And as for the ruining of the perfectness by Feanor, could some lines be drawn between that and the whole snake and apple thing in the garden of eden?

</p>

Telchar
06-13-2001, 12:08 AM
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Re: The Teleri

I agree with WiW that, as is stated in SILM, that the Teleri could not give up thier ships because of the love they had for them.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> But as for our white ships: those you gave us not. We learned not that craft of the Noldor, but from the lords of the Sea; and the white timbers we wrought with our own hands, and the white sails were woven by our wives and daughters. Therefore we will neither give them nor sell them for any league of friendship. For I say to you Fanor son of Finwe, these are to us as are the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall never make again.<hr></blockquote>

As is also stated in SILM - The Valar didn't got to war because they feared what might happen to the second born (men) whom they did not know where sleept. The did however not sit idle - They created the Moon and the Sun! A great blow to Morgoth, who allways used the darkness as one of his prime vapons of fear.

<img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin"> Telchar


Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

GandaIf The White
06-13-2001, 02:13 PM
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Re: The Teleri

Yeah, Telchar, I just read that today and realized the answer to that question. But I still think that they should have aided the Noldor, even in there folly, to save more from dying. Maybe Feanor wouldn't have died..

But, the Teleri could have let them borrow the ships... to use to get across the sea, and then brought them back. When the Noldor met the Silvan elves, they helped them willingly. You would think the Teleri would do the same..

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

Telchar
06-14-2001, 03:00 AM
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Re: The Teleri

Two short comments!
The Nordor did not encounter with any Silvan elves in Beleriand. But did meet the Sindarin Elves of Thingol and Cirdan, Which were akin to the Teleri of Aman. They (The noldor and the sindar) aided each other out of own interest.

&quot;Maybe Fanor would not have died?&quot;
- Ask rather yourself if it is a good or a bad thing that Fanor did die.

Anar kaluva tielyanna!</p>

Maglor68
06-14-2001, 05:50 AM
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Finwe

I think the real key to everything was the death of Finwe. If only he had run from Melkor and Ungoliant like everyone else, he would have been able to guide the Noldor to a better course of action. He almost certainly would have prevented Feanor and his sons from taking the oath, and the kinslaying at Alqualonde would definitely have been prevented.

I believe eventually a great coalition of Ainur and Elves would have sailed forth to Middle Earth to trash Melkor anyway.

- Maglor

</p>

Pengolodh
06-14-2001, 01:53 PM
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Re: The Teleri

The death of Finwe was certainly of great importance and should never be discarded. It was not just about the SIlmarils, but it was also said that Feanor's love for his father was greater than ANY had or could have. Although I find that a ridiculous statement from the Prof, it says a lot.

Anyway,Mithrandir, you state that the Teleri knew they would be defeated. I don't think they did. I think they would have fought if there was an overwhelming power there. Note also, that they were later aided by some Noldor, especially those allied with the &quot;Finarfians&quot;.

ANd why give Feanor the boats anyway? I too was amazed at first that they didn't , but in retrospect, the Singers just wanted to stay neutral and be uninvolved with the Rebels.






"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

obloquy
06-14-2001, 02:50 PM
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Alqualonde

I believe their minds were too innocent. I don't think they could've comprehended the depths of Feanor's desire for his Silmarils, and the evil that such heated emotion can breed. When had this peaceful people ever experienced war? hate? or murder? Olwe was a chieftain not because he had slain all who contended with him, but because he was an elder, revered and honored. Until this time, in moments of disagreement words had been exchanged, not blows. I don't think many of you, if I may be so bold, quite realize how seriously atrocious this deed of Feanor's family was. The entire concept of &quot;overthrowing&quot; was new. The Quendi were &quot;babes as to badness&quot;, and Feanor introduced them to murder.

Tell me, what do you think Abel was expecting just before Cain cruelly slew him?



</p>

Mister Underhill
06-14-2001, 02:57 PM
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Re: Alqualonde

&quot;Babes as to Badness&quot;... I love that movie. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

Whoops. Sorry. Back to serious discussion...

</p>

Mithadan
06-14-2001, 03:18 PM
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Re: Alqualonde

Obloquy, I disagree with your post in one respect. Feanor did not introduce murder to the Quendi, Morgoth did. Whether Morgoth's murder of Finwe made it easier for Feanor to assail the Havens is worthy of debate. However, it cannot be debated that the corruption of Feanor and his House derived from Morgoth. Many people dislike Feanor. I have always felt that Feanor was worthy of pity, not hatred. He and his people were the focus of an effort by Morgoth to foster hatred, distrust and chaos, and the power or ability to resist the efforts of Morgoth were quite beyond him or any of the Children of Iluvatar. Feanor was not himself evil, but rather corrupted. Turin suffered a similar fate simply because Morgoth's thought dogged him where ever he went.

In all other respects I agree with your post.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

GandaIf The White
06-14-2001, 03:51 PM
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Re: The Teleri

I agree with you Obloguy, now that I think of it. Even Manwe's mind was too innocent to see that hatred in Melkor when he let him out of Mandos. So it makes sense that the Teleri would not know what evil was upon them.

And, just as a question, even if Feanor and all the people of his house had guarded the Silmarils, could they have stopped Melkor?

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

obloquy
06-14-2001, 03:53 PM
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Teleri

You're right, of course, that the concept of murder originated with Morgoth. And you're right that Morgoth was the first to demonstrate it. However, I still believe the idea of one elf killing another was entirely inconceivable at the time.

I also agree that Feanor is more deserving of pity than hate. He was a deeply passionate creature, and a victim of Morgoth's lies. His spirit was too ablaze to contain, I guess... Which is why we're not calling him Curufinwe.

</p>

Bob Wehadababyitsaboy
08-06-2001, 11:31 PM
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Re: Teleri

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ANd why give Feanor the boats anyway? I too was amazed at first that they didn't , but in retrospect, the Singers just wanted to stay neutral and be uninvolved with the Rebels.<hr></blockquote>

I always thought it was because they couldn't make any ships like those again, and that they didn't want to leave the island since they were quite happy there. Were they looking for new kingdoms to establish and new lords to serve? I think I missed something then if this was true.

</p>

Ulumuri
08-23-2001, 09:42 AM
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Re: Teleri

Just think about this: Feanor didn't even surrender the Silmarils to bring back the Two Trees. It was his greatest possesion. People don't think logically about such things. I doubt if Melkor himself walked up to Feanor and demanded that he be given the Silmarils or die, Feanor would have chosen to fight.

</p>

Halbarad
08-23-2001, 06:21 PM
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Re: Teleri

I agree. Feanor ****ed off the Valar because of his war- he chose to curse his kindred by going after the Silmarils- I wouldn't do that if I was rational- I mean they're the Valar!

"A little people, but of great worth are the Shire-folk. Little do they know of our long labour for the safekeeping of their borders, and yet I grudge it not."</p>