Saurons Weapon of Choice?

[Dark Lord]

Hello.

I have been doing some digging recently, and since I haven't read the books, I just realized that Sauron's weapon choice was not mentioned properly, if at all. (In the books).

In the movies, his weapon was portrayed as a mace that could 'send entire battalions of soldiers flying in a single hit'.

Is this true in the books? Because if he can do that, with 'one' hit, why was it so hard to send Elendil and Gil - Galad flying away? It would kill them instantly wouldn't it? Or do you think he kept missing while they dodged?

Kind of disappointed that his mace with the 'flying away powers' wasn't mentioned in the book.

Was his weapon just a normal mace like a human would use? If so, seems like he didn't kill many people during his time.

[Mithalwen]

I am not sure if Sauron's weapon choice is ever definitively stated. Maybe the filmmakers just gave him a souped up version of the witch king's weaponry. Frankly if Sauron could wipe out swathes of warriors like that I doubt the siege would have lasted so long. I thing in one of the drafts there is a reference to Gil-galad wrestling Sauron (echoes of Felagund).

[Inziladun]

I would completely discount the movie's take on Sauron's melee abilities.

To touch on what Mith said, The Silmarillion states that during the siege of Barad-dûr,

Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil. Silm Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

In the Council of Elrond, when telling of those events, Elrond says only that

I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him. FOTR The Council of Elrond

That would seem to suggest that there was some sort of action involving weapons on Sauron's part, but apparently it wasn't noteworthy enough to specifically mention afterwards.

Sauron mainly relied on minions and servants to do his dirty work, and maybe on those rare occasions where he himself fought, like the battle with Gil-galad and Elendil, his weaponry just wasn't singular enough to warrant any special attention by witnesses.

Alternately, maybe he himself didn't make use of weapons, thinking he could accomplish his victories with his aura of terror, or that failing, with brute strength.

[Alfirin]

A mace would also also fit well with the whole image he was trying to cultivate. Sauron's former boss/leader/master, Melkor used Grond (the original one) which was, if I recall a mace. Since a lot of Sauron's "warrior" look (big guy, armor, burned/burning flesh) seems to be designed to make him look as much like Melkor in form as possible (and hence be seens as Melkor's heir/inheritor) choosing the same weapon would be a logical choice. Maces also have a long history of being symbolic of power and right to rule (think of the Grand Mace that's part of the British royal jewels)

[Andsigil]

A mace would also also fit well with the whole image he was trying to cultivate. Sauron's former boss/leader/master, Melkor used Grond (the original one) which was, if I recall a mace. Since a lot of Sauron's "warrior" look (big guy, armor, burned/burning flesh) seems to be designed to make him look as much like Melkor in form as possible (and hence be seens as Melkor's heir/inheritor) choosing the same weapon would be a logical choice. Maces also have a long history of being symbolic of power and right to rule (think of the Grand Mace that's part of the British royal jewels)

Agreed. I would add that a mace has a two very good qualities above, say, a sword: it's relatively simple to become proficient in its use, and it requires very little maintenance compared to a sword. I can well see its appeal to someone like Sauron: make, enchant, swing, bash.

(I would also submit that the humble spear, in its various forms around the world and through history, saw more service and killed more enemies than the sword did.)

[Dark Lord]

Quite disappointing really. One of my favourite things about Sauron was his mace, now I realise his mace isn't even in the lore.

Morgoth's mace use to smash craters with lava in the ground, wouldn't Sauron's weapon (if he had one) have similar qualities as he is known to 'tap in the earth's fires.

Since people are accustomed to Sauron having a mace, is it wrong to classify that his weapon (in the movies) is part of the lore? I just don't see how, how he would have lost any battles with it.

Also, if his mace was that powerful, wouldn't Tolkien think it is important and write it? If he didn't make a weapon, what is the point of making armour for himself?

[Inziladun]

Since people are accustomed to Sauron having a mace, is it wrong to classify that his weapon (in the movies) is part of the lore? I just don't see how, how he would have lost any battles with it.

There's enough argument about what constitutes "canon" within the scope of the books, let alone making the films a part of it! :eek:
I wouldn't grant anything in the movies as "part of the lore".

Also, if his mace was that powerful, wouldn't Tolkien think it is important and write it? If he didn't make a weapon, what is the point of making armour for himself?

That was rather my point: that Sauron's possession and/or use of a notably powerful melee weapon should have made some mark on the histories, like Morgoth's Grond did. What reference is there in the books to Sauron's armor?

[Mithalwen]

Forgive me, bur the answer I really want to give is that Sauron's chief weapon was Fear. Fear..and surprise.surprise and fear. ..and ruthless efficiency... amongst his chief weaponry were diverse elements such as fear, surprise , ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to Morgoth...and nice black armour...


I am getting my coat....

[Nerwen]

A mace would also also fit well with the whole image he was trying to cultivate. Sauron's former boss/leader/master, Melkor used Grond (the original one) which was, if I recall a mace. Since a lot of Sauron's "warrior" look (big guy, armor, burned/burning flesh) seems to be designed to make him look as much like Melkor in form as possible (and hence be seens as Melkor's heir/inheritor) choosing the same weapon would be a logical choice. Maces also have a long history of being symbolic of power and right to rule (think of the Grand Mace that's part of the British royal jewels)
Agreed. I would add that a mace has a two very good qualities above, say, a sword: it's relatively simple to become proficient in its use, and it requires very little maintenance compared to a sword. I can well see its appeal to someone like Sauron: make, enchant, swing, bash.

(I would also submit that the humble spear, in its various forms around the world and through history, saw more service and killed more enemies than the sword did.)

But what are you two agreeing to, exactly? Are you simply praising the film’s imagery here– or is this meant to be an answer to the original question? If the former, fine; if the latter– well, I’m afraid that's all pretty much irrelevant unless there’s an actual reference to Sauron using a mace. There may be one somewhere in The History of Middle Earth, but if there is I don’t recall it.

Originally Posted by Dark Lord
Since people are accustomed to Sauron having a mace, is it wrong to classify that his weapon (in the movies) is part of the lore?
Well, I suppose you could say it’s part of the “movie-lore”. Beyond that– well, what do you mean, exactly, DL? If something's not in the books you can’t very well say it is, can you? Or are you thinking in terms of some kind of fan-created consensus Middle-earth, where things from any source can be made “canon” if enough people, I don’t know, vote for them? Or what?

[Dark Lord]

What reference is there in the books to Sauron's armor?

Sauron fought in battles didn't he? It would be pretty brainless if he didn't make any sort of armour, even Uruk - Hai armour would be better than cloth. Common sense really, I doubt Sauron was a dippy. :D

Well, I suppose you could say it’s part of the “movie-lore”. Beyond that– well, what do you mean, exactly, DL?

Movie - lore sits quite right.

But, when you ask someone 'What was Sauron's weapon and what did it do?', most people would reply with the description of what showed in the movie, not say 'It wasn't stated'. - That's if they know much about LOTR.

[Morthoron]

Well, I suppose you could say it’s part of the “movie-lore”. Beyond that– well, what do you mean, exactly, DL? If something's not in the books you can’t very well say it is, can you? Or are you thinking in terms of some kind of fan-created consensus Middle-earth, where things from any source can be made “canon” if enough people, I don’t know, vote for them? Or what?

Perhaps Sauron's weapon of choice was a cannon. ;)

Personally, I don't believe Sauron used a physical "weapon" per se; rather, he used sorcery, such as in his battle with Finrod, and likewise in his shapeshifting into a were-wolf to battle Huan. Then, of course, he also wore the One Ring, a most frightful sorcerous weapon, with which he destroyed Gil-Galad and Elendil (not to mention his corruption and defeat of Numenor through the use of the Ring and not in open battle).

Being a "a great craftsman of the household of Aulë", Sauron certainly could have forged a potent weapon to wield, but his great metal works were the Rings of Power, not the Insidious Sword of Uber Smiting or the Malevolent Mace of Mordor. The use of the One Ring principally, and sorcery in general, were his mode of combat.

[Alfirin]

But what are you two agreeing to, exactly? Are you simply praising the film’s imagery here– or is this meant to be an answer to the original question? If the former, fine; if the latter– well, I’m afraid that's all pretty much irrelevant unless there’s an actual reference to Sauron using a mace. There may be one somewhere in The History of Middle Earth, but if there is I don’t recall it.


Well, I can't speak for Andsigil, but all I was trying to say was that, assuming that Sauron carried a weapon, a mace was as logical a choice as any other, and that he might have some very good symbolic reasons for doing so. That Melkor carried a mace is canon, at least I think it is (my A-Z of tolkien says "mace" but given that Grond I is also referred to as "the hammer of the underworld" when it is compared to Grond II I suppose that could be literal and we could actually be talking about some sort of warhammer.) That "Battle Sauron's" physical description sounds an awful lot like the physical description of Melkor (on a presumably reduced scale) is also canon as far as I know. everything else is just what I think is logical deduction, no more proved than that theory I had a while back about the wolf's head on the front of Grond II being an image of Carcaroth. Your are correct that, again, as far as I know, there is no specific reference to what weapon Sauron used (if any) and any guess is speculation, but what else is the forum for? If the answer given to most questions asked here is never anything more than "Tolkien never said, so we should not guess or presume" then this would be a sparse forum indeed.

[Nerwen]

But, when you ask someone 'What was Sauron's weapon and what did it do?', most people would reply with the description of what showed in the movie, not say 'It wasn't stated'. - That's if they know much about LOTR.
But if they know more, they are likely to say, “it wasn’t stated (in the book)”.

Your are correct that, again, as far as I know, there is no specific reference to what weapon Sauron used (if any) and any guess is speculation, but what else is the forum for? If the answer given to most questions asked here is never anything more than "Tolkien never said, so we should not guess or presume" then this would be a sparse forum indeed.
Alfirin, of courseyou can think of Sauron as having whatever weapon you like– and as you say a mace is “as logical a weapon as any”. However, the OP asked whether it was true “in the books”– and again, that does require specific evidence.

To put it another way: guessing is fine, presuming– to this extent– really isn’t.

[Nerwen]

And look, I’m sorry if I’m sounding nitpicky and pedantic (as usual!), it’s just that I really was not sure what you and Andsigil were trying to say up there.

[Alfirin]

It's fine, learned discourse requires a antithesis along with a thesis in order to try and reach synthesis. you just hit a raw nerve in me; the whole thing reminded me of a period on another literature related forum where a person arrived who had decided that only that which the original author had said was canon (and unlike tolkien this work had mutiple sucessor authors who were generally aknowledged as being canon as well) and that therefore all other works should neither exist nor be discussed and the original authour should not be discussed and explored either, his words should simply be accepted at face value as the literal gospel. That occurance ended nastily with the individual hurling curses (not swear words actual curses of the "may all your family get cancer and may you be flayed alive and burn in hell" type) at everyone else in the discussion, usually before they had actually said anything (he decided that anyone who had stayed out of the whole thing was against him as well). I NEVER want to go through one of those again, so I get edgy when I think another one is coming.
Anyhow getting back to the discussion, if I may go to the movie for a second (i actually wasn't focusing on it previosly, I was simply offering a little support to the original guess.) I feel fairly sure that Peter Jackson (or at least whoever did the design) may have been cribbing a bit from some of the previos Tolkien Illustators for his ideas. Specifically I am thinking of Battle Sauron's crown/helmet. To me it looked eerily like the one John Howe (that is his first name right, I don't have my book with me and this old computer I am on doesn't all me to open two windows at once to double check) gave Melkor in his painting of him meeting with Ungolient. Since I'm not sure that the canon mentions Sauron having a crown either (it says Melkor has one (where he keeps the Silmarils) and the Witch king has one, but I'm not sure about Sauron)

[Inziladun]

Sauron fought in battles didn't he? It would be pretty brainless if he didn't make any sort of armour, even Uruk - Hai armour would be better than cloth. Common sense really, I doubt Sauron was a dippy. :D

If Sauron engaged in personal combat, armor would be a sensible accessory.
However, from the books, there is no incidence of which I am aware of any melee on his part being described. So, as others point out, it's simple conjecture.

But, when you ask someone 'What was Sauron's weapon and what did it do?', most people would reply with the description of what showed in the movie, not say 'It wasn't stated'. - That's if they know much about LOTR.

Well, good for them. I have to point out though, that this particular thread is under "The Books". ;)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Since people are accustomed to Sauron having a mace, is it wrong to classify that his weapon (in the movies) is part of the lore?

It is wrong to class anything from the movies as part of the 'lore.'

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Note also this, from the Scroll of Isildur:

...Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed

[Zigûr]

Alternately, maybe he himself didn't make use of weapons, thinking he could accomplish his victories with his aura of terror, or that failing, with brute strength.
I personally take this view. I've never imagined Sauron coming out in armour and wielding a weapon, I actually always imagined him unarmed and unarmoured, trying to overwhelm Gil-galad and Elendil through furious raw strength and the sheer awfulness of his presence.
Note also this, from the Scroll of Isildur:

...Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed
This occurred to me too. Sauron could apparently burn with a touch, so perhaps he would not need conventional weapons.
"But at last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth"
This was an act of desperation, not a calculated military manoeuvre. Sauron never expected to have to actually fight his enemies.
Sauron fought in battles didn't he?
Almost never. The films portray Sauron weighing into the battle on the slopes of Orodruin as some kind of doomsday for the Last Alliance, but really it was Sauron's final gambit and one which didn't really work.
But, when you ask someone 'What was Sauron's weapon and what did it do?', most people would reply with the description of what showed in the movie, not say 'It wasn't stated'. - That's if they know much about LOTR.
Would they? Surely someone who knew "much about LOTR" would know that it's never stated, although "most people" probably don't know "much about LOTR." Unless you mean "know the films well" or "treat the books and the films as interchangeable", which they're not, and which these days is a source of endless confusion. Anyway, just because a lot of people believe something doesn't mean that it's true. Just because the films have coloured people's imaginations doesn't mean that their depictions have the slightest relevance when it comes to discussing what Professor Tolkien himself actually wrote.

While some of the arguments here for why he could have had a mace are quite interesting, at the same time it's all just speculation because Professor Tolkien never wrote what weapon he used, if he even used one at all.

[Inziladun]

Sauron could apparently burn with a touch, so perhaps he would not need conventional weapons.

That's interesting. Oddly enough, Gollum, who had presumably seen Sauron personally during his captivity in Mordor, told Frodo and Sam:

'He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough.' TTT The Black Gate Is Closed

Why would Sauron only have had one hand that was black, unless it was intentional? And, tangentially, I wonder if that had anything to do with Saruman's choice of the White Hand as his own symbol.

But at last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth"
This was an act of desperation, not a calculated military manoeuvre. Sauron never expected to have to actually fight his enemies.

Almost never. The films portray Sauron weighing into the battle on the slopes of Orodruin as some kind of doomsday for the Last Alliance, but really it was Sauron's final gambit and one which didn't really work.

I see Sauron's coming forth as mainly an act of rage, and revenge. His armies were destroyed, and his ideal of dominion in Middle-earth had been brought to naught by Elves and Men. What better act of vengeance than to kill with his own hands the kings of his enemies?

[Nerwen]

It's fine, learned discourse requires a antithesis along with a thesis in order to try and reach synthesis. you just hit a raw nerve in me; the whole thing reminded me of a period on another literature related forum where a person arrived who had decided that only that which the original author had said was canon (and unlike tolkien this work had mutiple sucessor authors who were generally aknowledged as being canon as well) and that therefore all other works should neither exist nor be discussed and the original authour should not be discussed and explored either, his words should simply be accepted at face value as the literal gospel. That occurance ended nastily with the individual hurling curses (not swear words actual curses of the "may all your family get cancer and may you be flayed alive and burn in hell" type) at everyone else in the discussion, usually before they had actually said anything (he decided that anyone who had stayed out of the whole thing was against him as well). I NEVER want to go through one of those again, so I get edgy when I think another one is coming.
Well, Alfirin, I do think there’s an enormous difference between what I did and the kind of behaviour you describe.

But, when you ask someone 'What was Sauron's weapon and what did it do?', most people would reply with the description of what showed in the movie, not say 'It wasn't stated'. - That's if they know much about LOTR.

Would they? Surely someone who knew "much about LOTR" would know that it's never stated, although "most people" probably don't know "much about LOTR." Unless you mean "know the films well" or "treat the books and the films as interchangeable", which they're not, and which these days is a source of endless confusion. Anyway, just because a lot of people believe something doesn't mean that it's true.
In my experience “fanon” can become quite as rigid as “canon”– maybe more so, since it won’t permit much in the way of a reality check– it tends to become a matter of, “well, all my friends think so”. And when the entire point is to make a single “official” version of something left open by the original author... well, I think that’s pretty restrictive.

Just because the films have coloured people's imaginations doesn't mean that their depictions have the slightest relevance when it comes to discussing what Professor Tolkien himself actually wrote.

While some of the arguments here for why he could have had a mace are quite interesting, at the same time it's all just speculation because Professor Tolkien never wrote what weapon he used, if he even used one at all.

I think we need to break the issue down a bit–

1. Is there any reason to believe Tolkien intended Sauron to use a mace?

is not the same question as

2. Is it all right for someone to depict the character this way?

So far, I don’t believe we’ve seen anything that would support a “yes” answer to the first question, or a “no” answer to the second.

[Dark Lord]

So far, I don’t believe we’ve seen anything that would support a “yes” answer to the first question, or a “no” answer to the second.

Maybe it's just left to our own imagination?

I 'personally' like the film adapt-ions of himself rather than what I have read about him from the books.

[Alfirin]

Well, Alfirin, I do think there’s an enormous difference between what I did and the kind of behaviour you describe.


Maybe so maybe I'm being paranoid. That experiance left me as a living example of that old aphorism that "A burned cat will fear a cold stove" (or, to my preference the Japanese version "A man who has been bitten by a snake will fear a rotted rope.")

[Nerwen]

Maybe so maybe I'm being paranoid.
Well, unless you really believe my post up at #9 is somehow equivalent to saying "may all your family get cancer and may you be flayed alive and burn in hell”...
That experiance left me as a living example of that old aphorism that "A burned cat will fear a cold stove" (or, to my preference the Japanese version "A man who has been bitten by a snake will fear a rotted rope.")
But the cat can hardly expect stoves to be abolished? (Actually, it might, being a cat, but you know what I mean.)

Maybe it's just left to our own imagination?
Exactly.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Why would Sauron only have had one hand that was black, unless it was intentional?

Why assume just one black hand? True, Gollum uses the singular article; but then Tolkien also uses "the Eye of Sauron" when we know he had two.

I'm inclined to think Tolkien's vision of Sauron (in his post-fall of Numenor form) was not unconnected to his essay/note on Sigelhearwan, a word which by late OE was used to translate "Ethiopians, Africans" but which JRRT argued on philological grounds had originally referred to the Giants of Muspellheim, black-skinned with fiery eyes.

[Inziladun]

Why assume just one black hand? True, Gollum uses the singular article; but then Tolkien also uses "the Eye of Sauron" when we know he had two.

The Eye has certainly received its share of discussion (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15789) over time, but I see it as mostly symbolic.

That said, it just seems odd that Gollum would make the distinction of "the Black Hand" if both Sauron's hands were like that.
Also, as stated above, Isildur noted that it was Sauron's hand which had borne the Ring that was black, not his hands.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

PJ's mace swatting a dozen (or hundreds) at one blow by Sauron was, of course, ridiculous. Sort of the way PJ exaggerates just about everything, for example making wargs superwargs in TTT movie.

The impression you get from LoTR is of essential single combat style
(like in manyHollywood Greek/Roman battle scenes).

Since Sauron was a disciple of Morgoth I'd look to Morgoth's battlle
with Fingolfin after the Dagor Bragollach.

Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to single combat.
...it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of Fingolfin's horn, and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband; and Fingolfin called Morgoth craven, and lord of slaves. Therefore Morgoth came...And he issued forth in black armour;and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him
[Fingolfin]...Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underground, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder.

So Morgoth was phyiscally imposing, but it was possible for a single elf (granted the greatest remaining in Beleriand) to fight him. Sauron was obviously much less physically daunting, although (being more then an eyeball) more imposing then even a single elf or Numenorean of the Third Age, so it may well have been a two or three on one battle, or as Gilgalad wounded Sauron while being killed another of the Last Alliance skewed Sauron. Then took or cut the Ring off his hand.

[Inziladun]

So Morgoth was phyiscally imposing, but it was possible for a single elf (granted the greatest remaining in Beleriand) to fight him. Sauron was obviously much less physically daunting, although (being more then an eyeball) more imposing then even a single elf or Numenorean of the Third Age, so it may well have been a two or three on one battle, or as Gilgalad wounded Sauron while being killed another of the Last Alliance skewed Sauron. Then took or cut the Ring off his hand.

I doubt any Elf or Man could have taken down Sauron alone. In Letters #246, Tolkien gives this about Sauron's Third Age embodiment:

...in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.

That would really have been a weaker incarnation than that faced by Elendil and Gil-galad, since Sauron had been obliged to rebuild himself after the loss of the Ring.
So, I agree that it took three of his greatest foes working together to defeat Sauron, even when he apparently had no weapons but his innate spiritual and physical power.

[Zigûr]

So, I agree that it took three of his greatest foes working together to defeat Sauron, even when he apparently had no weapons but his innate spiritual and physical power.
I think this is important. Elendil and Gil-galad were evidently very mighty individuals of their respective races both spiritually and physically. Despite being more powerful, I'm not sure Sauron would try to best them in a contest of weapons but rather a display of sheer force. I picture Sauron emerging in a furious rage literally grappling with his foes - as we've established, Gil-galad was burnt to death by the heat of Sauron's hand. Narsil was not broken by Sauron but rather snapped under Elendil as he fell. Isildur claims to have "dealt the Enemy his death-blow" however, so seemingly it was Isildur who brought the combat to its conclusion. Is there a difference between this death-blow and Isildur using the hilt-shard of Narsil to cut the Ring from Sauron's finger?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Eye has certainly received its share of discussion (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15789) over time, but I see it as mostly symbolic.

That said, it just seems odd that Gollum would make the distinction of "the Black Hand" if both Sauron's hands were like that.
Also, as stated above, Isildur noted that it was Sauron's hand which had borne the Ring that was black, not his hands.

Saruman not only adopted the White Hand as his symbol, but his Orcs even referred to "the White Hand at gives us mansflesh to eat." I don't think this implies that Saruman didn't possess two hands both pale pinkish in hue.

[Inziladun]

Saruman not only adopted the White Hand as his symbol, but his Orcs even referred to "the White Hand at gives us mansflesh to eat." I don't think this implies that Saruman didn't possess two hands both pale pinkish in hue.

However, the Orcs were referring to a symbol only. Gollum was speaking of Sauron's physical hand. If Gollum had said "the Red Eye", I could see the parallel.

[jallanite]

It seems to me that William Cloud Hicklin’s point is that the Orcs and Gollum are using the term hand in a different way, the Orcs as a symbol used to represent Saruman as a whole and Gollum using the “Black Hend” to refer to Sauron’s physical black hand.

No parallel is suggested by Hiacklin, but is indeed denied by him implicitly, so naturally Inziladun doesn’t see a ṗarallel which doesn’t exist, and which no-one else apparently sees.

Note that Tolkien’s only picture of Sauron can be seen at http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l3SDT89zXCI/Ufn4TR4eTGI/AAAAAAAAnkc/cKo5X25gF8k/s1600/J.+R.+R.+Tolkien%27s+watercolor+illustration+of+Sa uron.jpg .

Only one arm and hand is shown (and only Sauron’s right eye), but there is nothing to indicate that the viewer is supposed to suppose that the other is missing rather than merely not shown. It is Sauron’s right hand that is shown, and it has the full complement of a thumb and four fingers. Presuming that the image represents Sauron as re-embodied after having his ring finger cut off by Isildur, it appears that Sauron’s Black Hand was his unshown left hand.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What I think I was trying to get across was that it would be odd indeed if Sauron was piebald and had hands of two different colors. Nor can we suppose that the Ring-hand was somehow burned black; it was Sauron who heated the Ring, not vice-versa. It would be more sensible if we assumed that Sauron (post-Numenor) was black all over, with flaming eyes and a body that emitted burning heat. If that sounds a little Balrogish-- well, why not? There is a certain logic to Sauron regressing in that direction.

And again, consider T's essay on Sigelhearwan.

[avar]

Being a "a great craftsman of the household of Aulë", Sauron certainly could have forged a potent weapon to wield, but his great metal works were the Rings of Power, not the Insidious Sword of Uber Smiting or the Malevolent Mace of Mordor. The use of the One Ring principally, and sorcery in general, were his mode of combat.

I think this is the most important point here. Sauron was a master of sophisticated strategy, construction and intricate technical devices, and he had his machines and his slaves doing the fighting for him. This is very strongly emphasized in the books. Fear, too, is only one, if a prominent one, of his many tactics (especially employed through the Nazgûl).

Just to portray him wielding a plain weapon in hand-to-hand combat destroys this image, and he would certainly not have a "weapon of choice". The unarmed "wrestling" with Gil-galad and Elendil is also meant as a contrast to all of his machinery: a final, naked act of desperation.

Of course, he may "historically" have wielded a weapon in combat, but it is literary significant that this is never mentioned in the books.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Really, one might as well ask "What kind of armor did Balrogs wear?"

[Kuruharan]

Really, one might as well ask "What kind of armor did Balrogs wear?"

And since wearing armor precludes having wings, the discovery of balrog armor conclusively proves that balrogs did not have wings. ;)

[Morthoron]

And since wearing armor precludes having wings, the discovery of balrog armor conclusively proves that balrogs did not have wings. ;)

Pffft! Of course Balrogs didn't use wings when wearing armor. They employed turbo jet packs while passing over Hithlum with winged speed.

[Belegorn]

I seem to recall Milton's Angels fighting in armor, and I also recall Voltaire taking a shot at Angels fighting with cannons in Candide, lol, that was funny. But yea, I think, as far as I can remember, the Angels had wings and fought in armour and are about comparable to Tolkien's Balrogs. :)

[Zigûr]

Really, one might as well ask "What kind of armor did Balrogs wear?"
Probably mail?
In all seriousness, that's what I imagine. Large, shadowy man-shapes with flaming manes (no wings, no generic demonic bits like hoofs or horns) in black mail. I mean, can't we at least hazard a guess at such answers? There was no armour more advanced than mail in Middle-earth. Hence why I think we can also hazard a guess as to Sauron's armament, ie that he had none. But I would never claim that as definitive, nor that Balrogs wore mail or indeed lacked wings. But that's how I interpret the text.
Just to portray him wielding a plain weapon in hand-to-hand combat destroys this image, and he would certainly not have a "weapon of choice". The unarmed "wrestling" with Gil-galad and Elendil is also meant as a contrast to all of his machinery: a final, naked act of desperation.
I'm entirely on board with this.

[Alfirin]

Well, there is of course the so called "Armor of God" ;) But seriously the whole thing is modern interpretation of early quotes. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the whole justification for angelic wings is from some passages in the Apocrypha about them flying, and early church fathers deciding that, if they can fly they must have wings (which, to me at least always made the story about the Inquisition arresting El Greco on the grounds he'd painted his angel's wings wrong a little funny.) The rest is sort of modenization; adapting the image to current versions of the items being discussed. It's a bit like if you look ad Medival church art of angels with thier "firey swords" the swords more usually resemble then current longswords and broadswords than the leaf bladed kinds that would have been current in the Holy Land Area when the passages were being finalized. Milton and Votaire put armor on thier angels because at that time armor would be part of what a warrior would wear; it's part of the image, whether or not it's still useful, like a US Military officer's dress saber. Either that, or if you want to get a little silly, as time has progressed and our weaponry has gotten nastier, Angels who need to appear to people in combat conditions have needed better and better protection to stay safe (I imagine that, after the little stunt at Mons in WWI, many angels might have felt they needed gas masks).
Personally I've always imagined Balrogs with armor. At bare minimum they'd need some sort of belt, to hold thier flaming swords and whips when not being wielded (they presumaby have to put them down to use thier hands to do other things, like eat). My mind tends to go for the "cuirass and shoulder guards" look, since it tends to fit with my mental image of a balrog (sort of a cross between demonic human and leonine (they have manes, right) I tend to not imagine they have leg armor but that's becuase in my mind the bestial aspects tend to come along with an image of more animal like legs, so that Balrogs have that somewhat bowlegged stance one normally associates with other animal hind legged monsters (like some forms of werewolf) and those don't really fit with much armor.

[Kuruharan]

This just goes to show that even the silliest comment about balrog wings will always start a longer discussion. ;)

[Inziladun]

In the Unfinished Tales chapter The History of Galadriel and Celeborn there is an account of Sauron's attempt to overrun the west of Middle-earth in the Second Age, well before he was taken "prisoner" by Ar-Pharazôn of Númenor. This is in contrast to his later machinations, in that he actually accompanied his army on their march into Eriador.
He was eventually defeated and driven back to Mordor with "no more than a bodyguard" left of his forces. In that fighting were Elves, Dwarves, and Men, and at no time is it said that Sauron himself ever wielded a weapon, though acting as a field general for your army would seem a logical time for doing so. Nor is there any apparent record among his foes of his using any sort of melee weapon personally. I have to think that if Sauron had possessed a weapon, he would have made use of it then, and someone would have noted it.

[Belegorn]

If he fought bare-fisted, or with his hands wrapped up like the old Greek boxers, think of maybe Jet Li in The One, hands versus bullets.

[Inziladun]

If he fought bare-fisted, or with his hands wrapped up like the old Greek boxers, think of maybe Jet Li in The One, hands versus bullets.

In pure fisticuffs, Sauron's superior stature and strength would always give him an edge over lesser beings. Being in nature an angelic, embodied spirit, I would think even sword and arrow-wounds wouldn't put him down, unless he received very many of them. Morgoth, though obviously greater in all ways than Sauron, was able to withstand multiple sword-wounds by one of the most powerful of the Noldor. I don't think Sauron would have had much fear of even armed adversaries.

[Belegorn]

True, but many of his enemies were on a whole other level, being Elves and Dúnedain. Sauron himself was not quite on the level of his master. I'm just watching Full-Metal Alchemist and I think the Dúnedain were sort of like King Bradleys, and of course the Elves generally were like them, except of course the exceptional ones. I mean in the end he was put down by two of the elite of their respective kindreds so I do not see him so much out of their league as to just be strolling in among his enemies, at least at this point in history, and expecting to walk away relatively unscathed.

Remember when Isildur and his 200 or so Men were ambushed by over 2000 Orcs and they still almost wiped them out. They were horribly outnumbered. It took about 5-6 together to take out one Dúnedain, but their methods it seemed involved sacrifice because they needed to try and hold them down to get at them, almost a recklessness. I do think perhaps Sauron had something to help him deal with his enemies weapons, to mitigate their impact to some degree. He also had that heat with which he took out Gil-galad.

He was a master of wolves, I'm not sure about this, but did he make much use of them in the 2nd Age? I'm not so sure. I know some of the Orcs under Saruman used Wargs & the like, but I'd think Sauron would keep such powerful creatures around to strengthen his forces. I can certainly see Sauron going at it with just his own physical tools. It seems for the most part that warriors of note, or at least the famous people/beings tend to have their weapons mentioned. Morgoth did, as did the Balrogs, and various Elves and Men. I suppose Sauron sort of went at it like the dragons did.

[Alfirin]

Actually the skills of the Dunedain and Elves would probably almost make armor a requirement if Sauron ever planned to be on the battlefield. After all, how could he be sure that his enemies would be so noble as to keep themselves confined to close combat when he was concerned. Up close and personal, he had is power and his fire. But what would happen if they had decided to take him out from a distance. Both the elves and men possesed in thier armies numerous incredibly crack shots with bow and spear; what's to keep them from simply taking aim and riddling him. I imagine that any fear powers Sauron has won't work on intert objects and using his fire to burn them rather relys on him being able to see all of them. I tend to think his firepower requires conscios effort, that his background heat was not so high that arrows and spears simply spontaneously combusted as they got near him (and even if they did, the heads would still get though which would funtionally be the same as the whole arrow or spear. Plus assuming anyone knew about the fire thing (and they probably did. All they'd need are arrows or spears with iron shafts as well as heads). No armor means no defense against projectiles; Sauron would be a pincusion before he got twenty paces out of the gates. If his finger can be cut off, his body can presumably be peirced.

[Inziladun]

Armor or no, I still think that the lack of any mention of Sauron's engaging in melee action or his possession of any weapon is a good indication he did not carry one.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Denethor laughed bitterly. 'Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! [Sauron] will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons?'

[Inziladun]

Denethor laughed bitterly. 'Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! [Sauron] will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons?'

Oddly enough though, Denethor accused Gandalf of that very thing, yet Gandalf is the one Maia we do see personally wielding a weapon (excluding the Balrog)!
And no, I don't count Saruman's cheap shot at Frodo with his fingernail clipper. :rolleyes:

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And no, I don't count Saruman's cheap shot at Frodo with his fingernail clipper.

Well hobbits used appalling weapons also, the universally banned LSB umbrella
of doom, for one. ;)

But the comment above about taking out Sauron long distance with arrows and spears puts another whole in PJs LoTR depictions. In the prequil (actually good overall) why not have those hundreds of elf and Dunedain archers (directed by Elrond) just pincushion Sauron. After all, in the movie he's a rather big target, hard to miss, and the archers were knocking orcs off the top of Mount Doom.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Oddly enough though, Denethor accused Gandalf of that very thing, yet Gandalf is the one Maia we do see personally wielding a weapon (excluding the Balrog)!
And no, I don't count Saruman's cheap shot at Frodo with his fingernail clipper. :rolleyes:

Ha! You mean you overlooked Radagast's Rabbit Chariot? He's a bloody Diomedes in that thing......

[Belegorn]

The Diomedes of the Trojan War who was amped up by Athena?

Speaking of weaponless angel-like beings, how about Tulkas. I think it would be a good idea to keep him in mind if we are considering Sauron fighting weaponless, or at least in these cases, without a melee weapon. I don't think that like Tulkas physical confrontation was Sauron's strong suit, powerful though he was.

I do think Sauron had to wear some armor. Perhaps, the simple armor aside like a cuirass, he had something else to mitigate incoming threats.

Gandalf had his sword and his staff, if we are counting that as a weapon then Saruman had his staff too.

[Boromir88]

Denethor laughed bitterly. 'Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! [Sauron] will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons?'

Lots of irony in Denethor taking leadership lessons from Sauron, but he's still wielding a sword and wearing armor (although lending credence to Inzil's argument, if Sauron had armor or a weapon it would have been mentioned, especially when in battle):

...spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand."
He stood up and cast open his long black cloak, and behold! he was clad in mail beneath, and girt with a long sword, great-hilted in a sheath of black and silver. "Thus have I walked, and thus now for many years have I slept,' he said 'lest with age the body should grow soft and timid."~The Siege of Gondor

[Juicy-Sweet]

Well hobbits used appalling weapons also, the universally banned LSB umbrella
of doom, for one. ;)

But the comment above about taking out Sauron long distance with arrows and spears puts another whole in PJs LoTR depictions. In the prequil (actually good overall) why not have those hundreds of elf and Dunedain archers (directed by Elrond) just pincushion Sauron. After all, in the movie he's a rather big target, hard to miss, and the archers were knocking orcs off the top of Mount Doom.

Tiredness I guess. Using those bows are heavy Work. Medieval English longbows had a poundage of 120-150 Pounds (i saw somewhere a reference to Legolas' bow having 150 pounds of draw power; I am unsure if this is canonical but I think so).

An English longbowman could shoot 6 arrows a minute, but after a few minutes you would tire and not be able to fire anymore. Small wonder - you can't keep drawing 150 pounds forever.

Plus arrows gets used up. (English lowngbowmen had something like 10 each.)

Plus Archers were used to fire volleys, not for aiming at specific targets. Not easy hitting moving targets at long distances, especially if it emanates fear :)

Sauron entered the battle at a late stage - doesn't seem illogical to me that the archers were then tired and had used up most of their projectiles.

[tom the eldest]

A mace maybe?like in the movies?or probably an aura of terror.afterall,he is the abhorred dead.or,anything that is evil,finely crafted,and very deadly

[Ivriniel]

Forgive me, bur the answer I really want to give is that Sauron's chief weapon was Fear. Fear..and surprise.surprise and fear. ..and ruthless efficiency... amongst his chief weaponry were diverse elements such as fear, surprise , ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to Morgoth...and nice black armour...


I am getting my coat....

Yes.

He was all about sadism, fear, domination, corruption, seduction, and he was, I think, once a servant of Aule. Sauron is attributed to transformation motifs, where 'succumbing' and 'perverting' are his tools. The tools of lore, not weaponry, that allow him to extend his Will in, through and over other beings.

More psychological, in many ways and about enslavement and subordination to 'his lordship'. Also a bit like a tantruming, overgrown child, who didn't know how to share his toys.... :)

[Liriodendron]

Seems like Sauron's weapon of choice is to makes others paranoid or whatever else it takes to make them kill each other due to hate....Sauron is like the "devil" he feeds on hate......

[tom the eldest]

Sauron main weaponmis fear,and he could instill terror in the heart of his foe.secondary,probably his sorcery/shape-shifting ability