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Orald
03-14-2001, 01:10 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 669</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Who makes up a council, and what qualifies them for that postion? Like the White Council, or the Council of Elrond.
Is it just wisdom?

And who was in the White Council? I

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

lindil
03-14-2001, 09:58 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 474</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
The White Council

The White Council seemed to be made up of a rather closed clique of Immortals. Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond,Galadriel are known members. Celeborn,Cirdan [or his representative],Glorfindel can be I think safely assumed.

I have always wondered wether the chief of the Dunedain [or king of Arthedain was in on it] along with the ruler of Gondor.
Thranduil does not seem that Thranduil was at the last meeting [during the Hobbit] as he was in his halls overseeing the imprisonment of the Dwarves.Dain also was not in on it.
Basically it seems that there was such a level of secrecy that the major allies [other than Lorien /Rivendell/the Havens] were largely unaware of what was going on each others realm other than sporadic messages. Thranduils realm is a puzzle, on the one hand we have aragorn travelling all the way past Lorien to take Gollum to Thranduil. And we have Legolas admitting to a virtual communication breakdon in FotR between the Mirkwood elves and Lothlorien 'It is many yearts since any of my kindred...' or some such.

Others I hope may have more insight.

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

lindil
03-14-2001, 10:06 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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Elrond's council

This was a special council , unlike the 'white Councils' in the past.

The people there were gathered as elrond says by providence and were chosen [presumably by Eru] to be there ' and no others'.
For the first time in the history of Middle-Earth it seems you have the Elves [via elrond] confessing to all races of the debacle of the rings which the Elves were responsible for.

Michael Martinez has an excellent essay [ at suite 101] on the rings which goes in depth into the whole matter of the Elves secrecy and deception which they [reluctantly it is suposed ] practiced on other races involving them in the War against Sauron and the passing out of the rings to Men and Dwarves.

So elrond's last council was unique you qualified for attendance by being there and being a representative of one of the Free peoples.

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Fingolfin
03-14-2001, 02:55 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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Re: Councils

What about the Blue wizards, where they in the White council?

</p>

lindil
03-14-2001, 03:06 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 478</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Radagast

That reminds me that I forgot to include Radagast in the list of maybe's of the white council.

It is extremely unlikely that the Blue Two were invoved unless there were council meetings before they left w/ Sauruman.
They are not mentioned as having any dealings w/ the Western lands other than landing at Mithlond.







Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Lady Eowyn
04-02-2001, 12:35 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 130</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Radagast

Now I had always thought, that the white council was only Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn and maybe radagast. meaning the &quot;heads&quot; of the elves and the wizards.
Prolly then also Cirdan and Thranduil.
I don't think that any dwarves were on the white council. When you think about how much elves and dwarves liked each other, until maybe thorin &amp; co came to rivendell.
So, I don't think that any mortals were on the white council..

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

Findorfin
04-05-2001, 07:59 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Blue Wizards ?

Who are the Blue Wizards ?

'Three Rings for Elven-Kings under the sky'</p>

burrahobbit
04-05-2001, 09:20 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Blue Wizards ?

Saruman is the White one, Radagast is the Brown one, Gandalf is the Grey one. Then there are the Blue ones, Alatar and Pallando. They went on a trip East with Saruman and never came back. Alatar is a Maia of OromŽ. Pallando comes along as Alatar's friend, so I guess he is of OromŽ too.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000062>burrahobbit</A> at: 4/5/01 11:26:52 am

lindil
04-05-2001, 11:06 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Blue Wizards ?

Unfinished Tales and The Letters of JRRT are the primary sources, for the suprising amount of speculation that has gone on re: the 2 blues.

Findorfin,I am rather certain we have at lest 1 thread devoted to them here, if not more. so you can check the Archives if you wish either by going throught the pages listed on the Books forun main page or use the search function.


lindil

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

HerenIstarion
04-06-2001, 02:08 AM
Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 979
council

As far as I understand, members of the white council were 6 persons ( +2 Ithryn Luin, which were absent after their trip to the East), and those were Istari adn elven Ring Bearers. Since Radagast was concerned mostly with animals, and Cirdan permanently abode at the havens, that gives us only four active official members - Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf and Saruman. The rest was just a supporting stuff (including Chiefs of northern Dunedain), but probably they influenced the decisions that council made - the evidence is Galdariels words, when she confessed that she insisted that Gandalf would be elected the Head of the Council, but majority chose Saruman to be the leader. That means either that Gandalf himself voted for Saruman:

1 Elrond and Galadriel for for Gandalf - 2 votes
2 Radagast, Cirdan, Saruman, Gandalf - for Saruman - 4 votes

or that Elrond chose to have Saruman as a head of the council at first:

1 Galdariel and Gandlaf - Gandalf 2 votes
2 Radagast, Elrond, Saruman, Cirdan - Saruman 4 votes

There are several other possibilities too:

1 others than istari and ringbearers took part in the election sao making the majority in Saruman's favour
2 Election took place before Ithryn Luin departed to the East, and they voted for Saruman
3 Saruman was aknowledged the head of the council without elections, and the debate of changing the leader rose in the course of it's activities, and Gandalf himself out of his humility refused the proposal

Galadrielle Annatar
04-06-2001, 02:38 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: council

firstly I doubt very much that Cirdan would vote for Saruman after giving Gandalf the ring.

Galadrielle said something to the effect that Galdalf would have been the head of the council if her designs hadn't gone astray. I don't think this means they had a vote, rather some thing like the 3rd option and Saruman maybe used the power of his voice to gain the position.

</p>

Glorfindel
04-06-2001, 03:08 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: council

But the power of his voice only affected the weak minded. I really dont think Saruman had much power among a bunch of strong willed individuals such as the council consisted of. I think they were all equals, none really being more powerful then the others. But that also brings the delema of how the heck did Saruman get voted head of it?

</p>

HerenIstarion
04-06-2001, 03:16 PM
Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1013
Re: council

If he was voted at all, of course. + don't you forget that he was not wicked when he came to ME.
+ he may well be considered at a time more suitable head for the council as a best orginising man of all them - meaning his love for order and ability in achieving it (he was only wizard to settle down in days to come, and , probably, was easier to find when needed). He may have been considered best administrator - for position of the head of the council was not giving apparent advantages in power, but in authority and fame (though in wrong hands misused this was bitter blow for enemies of Evil)

lindil
04-06-2001, 05:59 PM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: council

I see no reason to think that the White council would have consisted of only members of the Istari and High-Elven Ringbearers [or as in Cirdan's case - former ringbearers] Celeborn,Glorfindel [ having been sent by the Valar] were prime candidates and inclusion of the Chieftans of the Dunedain all seem possible. However as there is very little hard info [the fiinding of Galadriels qoute was keen work] we are all free to speculate as we will.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>