Are Elves vegatarian?

[Lotrelf]

Did Professor mean Elves to be vegatarian? I'm on the 8th chapter in The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders. The Hobbit and the Dwarves find some elves while journeying in Mirkwood, and they are mentioned eating "meat". Meat has only one meaning. I thought Elves were vegies, weren't they?

[Inziladun]

The Noldor in Beleriand in the First Age were said to be hunters, and I would presume that they did not hunt only for skins. Elves in general did not shun eating meat, but perhaps certain communities, like the Green-elves of Ossiriand, who used the excuse that arriving Men from the east were "hunters of beasts" as a reason to dislike them, might have stuck with vegetarianism.

[Lotrelf]

Elves were spiritual, and spiritual people/creatures refrain killing others for their own benefit, be it for food. Elves, being First Born, were not supposed to do so, as they did not smoke.

[tom the eldest]

But they do drink wine,like galion,thranduil and the wood elves.

[Inziladun]

Elves were spiritual, and spiritual people/creatures refrain killing others for their own benefit, be it for food. Elves, being First Born, were not supposed to do so, as they did not smoke.

Yet, they did hunt. I see no evidence that their status as the Firstborn precluded hunting, or using animals in other ways. They simply would not have been wasteful, or indiscriminate with what they killed. Elves were also in tune with forests and trees, yet they used wood for fires, tools, and building.

As for the smoking, that was a habit peculiar to western Eriador, attributable to Hobbits, that had not even been introduced until the Third Age. Only those, like the Men of Bree and the Dwarves who commonly dealt with Hobbits, were likely to have taken it up, or even known of it.

[mhagain]

Post-LotR work on the Silmarillion (published in Morgoth's Ring) indicates that the Elves certainly did hunt, the most telling quote being:

The Elves had before possessed only weapons of the chase, spears and bows and arrows.

There's also Aule's reply to Yavanna after his making of the Dwarves:

That shall also be true of the Children of Iluvatar; for they will eat and they will build. And though the things of thy realm have worth in themselves, and would have worth if no Children were to come, yet Eru will give them dominion, and they shall use all that they find in Arda: though not, by the purpose of Eru, without respect or without gratitude.

The concept of Elves as vegetarian hippies living in commune with nature is true only of the Nandor, but is otherwise largely a later trope, perhaps a case of a D&D-ism working backwards and infecting Tolkien, but in Tolkien's own writings there's no grounds for this trope.

[Lotrelf]

I did not say being Firstborn would keep them from killing or hunting. It was a general question since Elves were the most spiritual creatures, and they loved nature. So their affection towards natural things i.e. Trees and Animals etc. would be dear to them. They instead of hunting or killing, would preserve them.

[Ivriniel]

Elves were spiritual, and spiritual people/creatures refrain killing others for their own benefit, be it for food. Elves, being First Born, were not supposed to do so, as they did not smoke.

Elves ate meat. Slaughtered, spat, swore - and no doubt had body odour. Their hair got matted, tangled, and dreaded like anyone's in the wild. Eol had a hunched back, from working the smithies.

They were quite perverse in their own way, when you look at the race with some caveats--even weirdos at times. They're also Elf-tossers: Turgon threw Eol off the crags in Gondolin after Aredhel was slain by a poison arrow.

[Galin]

Did Professor mean Elves to be vegatarian? I'm on the 8th chapter in The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders. The Hobbit and the Dwarves find some elves while journeying in Mirkwood, and they are mentioned eating "meat". Meat has only one meaning. I thought Elves were vegies, weren't they?

Tolkien's Elves appear to eat meat in The Hobbit, as you note, and according to the earlier stages of the legendarium. From The Lay of the Children of Hurin, for example:

On a time was Turin at the table of Thingol
there was laughter long and the loud clamour
of a countless company that quaffed the mead,
amid the wine of Dor-Winion that went ungrudged
in their golden goblets; and goodly meats
there burdened the boards, neath the blazing torches
...

The question might be: did JRRT change his mind with respect to The Lord of the Rings and later? For myself I do not think so. I see no reason to think that Legolas did not partake of all the 'flotsam and jetsam meal' for instance. And I think it's implied in The Fall of Gondolin (early 1950s version) that Voronwe and Tuor will eat meat in order to survive.

An argument might be made for the Green Elves of Ossiriand however: according to the Quenta tradition, the Nandor of Ossiriand heard that a lord of the Eldar from over the Sea was among Men, and they sent messages concerning these new folk, part of which included: 'And these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends,...'

But it was Finrod who had met Beor and his Men due to hunting with Maglor and Maedros, so if these Green Elves did not hunt, others did. Of course I realize that hunting and eating meat are not the same thing, but for myself I would need some fairly convincing argument to split that particular hair.

I say yes, Elves ate meat :D

[Elyna of Rivendell]

I'd imagine that Elves would eat meat. I don't think the majority of them would have had an issue with killing animals for food- It is completely natural to do so. I think they would have shunned at hunting purely for pleasure or sport but for something as, dare i say, useful as food... i think it would have been okay.

However, like humans nowadays, there would have been elves who were vegetarians, but, like today, it probably would have been an individual's choice.

(p.s. no offence to anyone who does hunting as a sport. I did not mean to offend you and if i did i sincerely apologise)

[Nerwen]

I did not say being Firstborn would keep them from killing or hunting. It was a general question since Elves were the most spiritual creatures, and they loved nature. So their affection towards natural things i.e. Trees and Animals etc. would be dear to them. They instead of hunting or killing, would preserve them.
Er- what exactly is your point here, Lotrelf? If an author explicitly says his characters do something, how can you argue they don't?:confused:

[mhagain]

One thing we can say that Elves probably don't eat is mushrooms.

This comes from a passage omitted from the Druedain material in UT but given in Of Dwarves and Men:

To the astonishment of Elves and other Men they ate funguses with pleasure ... the Eldar did not eat these things.

Tolkien struck this passage out, noting that it was "too like Hobbits", so it's up to us to decide if this was also a rejection of Elves not eating mushrooms.

Note also that he said "Eldar", so the Avari possibly do eat them.

[Inziladun]

Note also that he said "Eldar", so the Avari possibly do eat them.

Since Mîm the Petty-Dwarf said of the "proud ones from over the Sea" that they were "too proud to delve", I would be inclined to think they weren't all that keen on eating things they had to dig out of the ground. I can see them eating berries and things from vines and trees more easily.

Anyway, there's not "mushroom" for doubt that they at least ate meat. ;)

[Galin]

Anyone, there's not "mushroom" for doubt that they at least ate meat. ;)

I like it when people go to the truffle of adding a pun in their response.

[mhagain]

I like it when people go to the truffle of adding a pun in their response.

Amid all the seriousness it's good to see someone who's a fun guy.

[Alfirin]

Amid all the seriousness it's good to see someone who's a fun guy.

Me too, so long is it doesn't breach the forum's morels.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Legolas seems to have had no trouble eating meat. From LoTR "Flotsam And Jetsom":

"And you need not turn up your nose at the provender, Master Gimli," said Merry. "This is not orc-stuff, but man-food, as Treebeard calls it.Will you have wine or beer? There's a barrel inside there - very passable.And this is first-rate salted pork. Or I can cut you some rashers of bacon and broil them, if you like. I am sorry there is no green stuff: the deliveries have been rather interrupted in the last few days!"...
The three [Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli] were soon busy with their meal [no hint that legolas didn't munch on the pork or bacon

[Tuor in Gondolin]

And (from his website) Michael Martinez' opinion is:

Are the Elves Vegetarians?
February 12, 2013
By Michael Martinez
Q: Are the Elves Vegetarians?
ANSWER: This question often arises, and since the release of “The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey” many people have been asking if the Elves are vegetarian or if Elves eat meat. When Thorin and Company are fed by the Elves of Rivendell, the dialog implies that the Elves do not serve meat to the Dwarves. However, at one point Fili tosses a sausage to Bombur, who is seated on a table. The extra weight of the sausage is enough to cause the table to collapse.

In J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth most Elves eat meat. The only Elves specifically said to be vegetarians were the Green-elves of Ossiriand. In Peter Jackson’s Middle-earth, it’s hard to find an Elf willing to eat meat. Still, you have to wonder where Fili’s Rivendell sausage came from.
]

[mhagain]

you have to wonder where Fili’s Rivendell sausage came from

Jesus! There's a mental image I could have done without!

To say nothing of "Kili's Elvenking-Halls sausage".

[Alfirin]

The way I try and reconcile the line and the sausage is by assuming that the elves of Rivendell are not WHOLLY vegetarian, but they have a diet more along the lines of a Mediterrenean/southern Peasant line, where meat is often a flavoring/accent in a dish, not the main feature. And that this might be in contrast to the normal dwarven diet, which is much more along the "meat and potatoes/starch" line (since the dwarves tend to trade for a lot of thier food, they may be used to mostly eating things that keep and travel well. Merry does apologize to Gimli for their being no "green stuff" in the quote Tuor found, but it is unclear if he is aplogizing for something that he actually thinks Gimli would want to eat, or he is making a slightly humorous comment based on the difference between what would be normal fare for a dwarf and hobbit diets (which probably DO have a fair amount of vegetables, given that gardening is a viable profession and the love the hobbits have for gardens.)
Speaking of alternate foods (now that we are occasionally expanding into other things elves may or may not eat. Doe you think, if elves are not big meat eaters, they eat a lot of dairy, or is their diet more along the lines of veganisim? I'm sort of two minds here. On one hand, since dairy tends to require a fair amount of pastureland (for whatever animals you are milking to graze on) a part of me want to think not, at least not for Lothlorien )which seems to be mostly surrounded by trees and Mirkwood which is more or less the same (Rivindell's valley may be bigger so they may have room for pastureland.) On the other hand, something in me keeps thinking they do (it may be that when I feast heard lembas called waybread, I though they meant wheybread i.e. bread made with milk whey instead of water.) There is also the question of if the elves really are vegan I'm not sure how much veggie protein is around. ME seems to have such New World crops as potatoes and tobacco (and tomatoes too, in one of the early drafts of the hobbit) so they might have common beans. But if they don't your veggie protein choices seem a little limited (you'd have lentils, starchy peas (like the Carlin pea) Broad (fava) beans, chickpeas (probably only in southern places like Gondor and the Harads and so not in third age elf zones really) grasspea (maybe) edible lupines (again, a big maybe) and after that I (who am a botanist) run dry of guesses.

[mhagain]

when I feast heard lembas called waybread, I though they meant wheybread i.e. bread made with milk whey instead of water

Even without the misreading they still need fields (or at least "guarded lands and sunlit glades") for growing wheat (which Letter 210 states to be the primary ingredient; I know JRRT said "corn" in the Lembas essay, but in the UK "corn" is just a generic term for any cereal; "maize" is the New World cereal). It's certainly the case that JRRT didn't write much about Middle-earth agriculture, but that doesn't mean that it didn't exist.

[Alfirin]

I agree that they'd need land to grow the grain. Given that the recipie was supposedly given to them by Yavanna herself, it's tempting to think that wild wheat could be used for maximum connection to nature (and since lembas is unleavened, gluten contents don't really apply here.) But the problem is the same as the one with the chickpeas; assuming most wild plants are roughly where they are latitude wise in our world (someone once correct my question about finding bay laurels in Ithillien by pointing out that, latitude wise, Ithillien would be roughly where Tuscany is in our world) The third age elves are mostly too far north to have it. Wild einkorn and emmer (which are basically the wild ancestors of wheat, give or take some goat grass genes) are really only found in places like Turkey and Macedonia, which I keep thinking would actually put them somewhere in Mordor in ME.

[mhagain]

I agree that they'd need land to grow the grain. Given that the recipie was supposedly given to them by Yavanna herself, it's tempting to think that wild wheat could be used for maximum connection to nature (and since lembas is unleavened, gluten contents don't really apply here.) But the problem is the same as the one with the chickpeas; assuming most wild plants are roughly where they are latitude wise in our world (someone once correct my question about finding bay laurels in Ithillien by pointing out that, latitude wise, Ithillien would be roughly where Tuscany is in our world) The third age elves are mostly too far north to have it. Wild einkorn and emmer (which are basically the wild ancestors of wheat, give or take some goat grass genes) are really only found in places like Turkey and Macedonia, which I keep thinking would actually put them somewhere in Mordor in ME.

Yeah, Turkey = Mordor seems about right; much of Mordor is a bit more northerly though, going by Letter 294 which places the mouths of Anduin and Pelargir at the latitude of Troy. Maybe Bulgaria?

Of the Darkening of Valinor has a note referring to "the fields and pastures of Yavanna, gold beneath the tall wheat of the gods" (I think this is the sole reference to "gods" in the published Silmarillion and I wonder how and why CT missed it) but we don't have any comparative latitude.

[Alfirin]

Actually that would make sense. That would mean that Turkey would me more or less over Nurn, which would allow wheat to grow there (it's Mordor'as breadbasket, after all)

And just to be a bit silly, A funny thought ocurred to me. I wonder if all of the peoples of middle earth selected thier grain strains to fit thier own views of beauty. The children of Durin presumably preferred trading for grains with long beards, while others would seek ones with short stiff ones, and of course, Gondorians would demand thier wheat and barley be beardless*. The men of Numernor would want Poulard wheat; tall and great grains for tall and great men. Hobbits on the other hand would probably most favor in club wheat; small and compact. Sauron's fields would presumably be filled with black wheats. Giant whippy Tibetan barleys for the men of Rohan, to ride thier horses through majesticly (and they are good for beer brewing). And of course Saruman, with his love of all things mechanical, must favor rivet wheat.

*The awns (those long hairy things) on the top of an ear of wheat are collectively called the beard. Some wheats/barleys have long beards, some have short beards and some have no beards.

[Lotrelf]

Er- what exactly is your point here, Lotrelf? If an author explicitly says his characters do something, how can you argue they don't?:confused:

I did not argue. I did not know that Professor had explicitly said something about this. I found that out from here. I didn't start this thread to "argue", but to know if They ate meat or not. After first few replies I couldn't make my mind to agree, but now, after, so much has been said I believe Elves ate meat and were non-vegatarians.

And, Yes, I asked this question because in The Hobbit 1, Dwarves are NOT served meat.

[Morthoron]

Vegetables are what Elves eat when they can't get hobbit.

[Lotrelf]

Vegetables are what Elves eat when they can't get hobbit.

Can't get Hobbit for what?

[Nerwen]

I did not argue. I did not know that Professor had explicitly said something about this. I found that out from here. I didn't start this thread to "argue", but to know if They ate meat or not. After first few replies I couldn't make my mind to agree, but now, after, so much has been said I believe Elves ate meat and were non-vegatarians.

And, Yes, I asked this question because in The Hobbit 1, Dwarves are NOT served meat.
I am pretty sure the movie Elves are meant to be vegetarian, yes. As someone said already, this is such a common trope of later fiction that people often just assume it applies to Tolkien's work as well- and I guess Jackson is one of those people.

And I'm using "argue" to mean "put forward a case", not "fight".

[Morthoron]

Can't get Hobbit for what?
Dinner.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Can't get Hobbit for what?

Dinner.
__________________

Or as (in Doctor Who) Madame Vastra replied when Jenny asked her how she found Jack the Ripper.

"Delicious." (Hey, that red liquid she enjoys isn't wine).

[Inziladun]

Vegetables are what Elves eat when they can't get hobbit.

More misinformation. There is clear evidence that Elves made and consumed this (http://www.keebler.com/products-cookies.aspx) as a staple.

I am pretty sure the movie Elves are meant to be vegetarian, yes. As someone said already, this is such a common trope of later fiction that people often just assume it applies to Tolkien's work as well- and I guess Jackson is one of those people.

It does indeed seem to fit the mold of Elves, or other beings associated with "nature" as being incapable of using fellow creatures for anything. Never mind the fact that it's awfully difficult to live on berries and bark, and walk around naked in the woods in winter due to an a refusal to use pelts or hides.

[Lotrelf]

Dinner.

Oops! Are you sure you're talking about the Elves? Your description sounds more like that of Sauron or Morgoth's.

[Zigûr]

Oops! Are you sure you're talking about the Elves? Your description sounds more like that of Sauron or Morgoth's.
Ah, you see, when Morthoron said (in full) "Vegetables are what Elves eat when they can't get hobbit for dinner" what Morth meant was that Elves eat vegetables when they don't have hobbits around as dinner guests. :p

"Just bring out the cold chicken and pickles" indeed.

[mhagain]

It does indeed seem to fit the mold of Elves, or other beings associated with "nature" as being incapable of using fellow creatures for anything.

Trouble is that Elves being particularly close to nature is another of those later tropes that gets retroactively applied to Tolkien.

Tolkien's own Elves had no problems with living in cities, working in mines and quarries, building great roads, etc. Turgon's people were almost exclusively urbanized, and Tumladen must have been very heavily farmed. Círdan's people lived in walled cities.

Sure, there wouldn't be a haze of industrial pollution over Gondolin, but you could pitch it at a similar technology level as the Roman Empire, say. Maybe Elvish aesthetics would balk at raw sewage flowing in the streets, but otherwise it seems to fit.

[Lotrelf]

Ah, you see, when Morthoron said (in full) "Vegetables are what Elves eat when they can't get hobbit for dinner" what Morth meant was that Elves eat vegetables when they don't have hobbits around as dinner guests. :p

"Just bring out the cold chicken and pickles" indeed.

This, at first, didn't seem to make sense to me. Did Elves know other hobbits except the five- Bilbo, Frodo, Sam , Merry and Pip?
*confused*

[Wousides]

Elven lifestyle is more about use of nature out of necessity, rather than "because we can".

[Morthoron]

Ah, you see, when Morthoron said (in full) "Vegetables are what Elves eat when they can't get hobbit for dinner" what Morth meant was that Elves eat vegetables when they don't have hobbits around as dinner guests. :p

"Just bring out the cold chicken and pickles" indeed.

Obviously, you have never heard of "finger food". ;)

[mhagain]

This, at first, didn't seem to make sense to me. Did Elves know other hobbits except the five- Bilbo, Frodo, Sam , Merry and Pip?
*confused*

Gildor's people said "hobbits are so dull" yet Frodo seems to have never met them before (else Gildor wouldn't have needed to introduce himself). They were also walking rhrough the Shire and had lodgings there. It seems utterly certain that Elves were at least aware of Hobbits.

[Inziladun]

Gildor's people said "hobbits are so dull" yet Frodo seems to have never met them before (else Gildor wouldn't have needed to introduce himself). They were also walking rhrough the Shire and had lodgings there. It seems utterly certain that Elves were at least aware of Hobbits.

Certainly they were aware. Gildor told Frodo he had seen him with Bilbo before. And Frodo himself explained to Sam that though Elves did not live in the Shire, they sometimes roamed around the Woody End.

[Lotrelf]

Obviously, you have never heard of "finger food". ;)

"Finger Food"? I have heard of it.
Did the Elves know Hobbits well enough to invite them on dinners?
Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

[Inziladun]

Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

Alcoholic drinks definitely were known and imbibed in Middle-earth. In The Hobbit, the butler and chief guard of the Wood-elves had enough wine to make them pass out, allowing Bilbo and the Dwarves to escape.
In FOTR, it was noted that in the aftermath of Bilbo's party, wheelbarrows had to be used to remove guests that had "inadvertently remained behind", and when Frodo jumped onto the table at the Prancing Pony in Bree, it was surmised that he was drunk. In The Two Towers Faramir gave wine to Frodo and Sam, and drank it in Minas Tirith himself.

Why would it take a laboratory to produce ethyl alcohol? Drinks containing it have been made by various processes for thousands of years in our world. There are still peoples that utilize traditional methods even today. Why should it be any different in Tolkien's world?

[Mithalwen]

"Finger Food"? I have heard of it.
Did the Elves know Hobbits well enough to invite them on dinners?
Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

You can make it in labs. Or you can make it in your own home. People have made ale and wine fore millennia before laboratories. My parents had a wine making phase when I was young and we had demijohns glugging away. You ferment grape juice with yeast and the sugar turns into alcohol. The alcohol meant it was safer to drink ale or wine than most water, though they used to drink a weak beer called small ale in olden days which meant at least some work got done. Butterbur brewed his own ale, making the Pony what is called a microbrewery.

[Morthoron]

"Finger Food"? I have heard of it.
Did the Elves know Hobbits well enough to invite them on dinners?
Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?

Beer and wine have been around for thousands of years. Well before labs were ever invented. In fact, beer and wine are two of the three fundamentals of civilization; those, and prostitution. ;)

[Smaug's voice]

There is significant evidence in the sil to suggest that elves regularly hunted and ate meat.
The only specification I think was for green elves who were veggies.
Or is my memory faulty? :D

[Aganzir]

To everyone who says elves didn't hunt for sport:
The Eldar did not at first recognize [the Petty Dwarves] as Incarnates, for they seldom caught sight of them in clear light. (…) The Eldar therefore thought that they were a kind of cunning two-legged animals living in caves (…) and they hunted them. But after the Eldar had made the aquaintance of the Naugrim, [they] were recognized as a variety of Dwarves and were left alone. There were then few of them surviving.
I give you two options - either the elves did hunt for fun, or they ate dwarves.

And, Yes, I asked this question because in The Hobbit 1, Dwarves are NOT served meat.
Considering how rude the elves were in PJ's Hobbit, I wouldn't be surprised at all if serving 'lesser' food was just one more way to slight the dwarves. Now, being a (very flexible) vegetarian myself, I'm not calling veggie food lesser per se, but you have to admit that lettuce doesn't constitute much of a meal.

Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?
My little brother brews the most amazing beer in his dorm's basement, which is hardly a lab.

[Nerwen]

Lotrelf, suggest you look up the various techniques of wine-making, beer-brewing etc.

Alcohol is certainly *not* a modern invention- to be honest, I'm really quite amazed that you could think so.:confused:

[Mithalwen]

May be from a "dry" culture...:D unlike yours and mine Nerwen dear:cool:

[Morthoron]

I give you two options - either the elves did hunt for fun, or they ate dwarves....

A little known fact about the elves is that "short order" cooks were in high demand. One of their specialties were Fili Mignon.

[Inziladun]

One of their specialties were Fili Mignon.

Not to mention Chicken Balinese.

[Aganzir]

Not to mention Chicken Balinese.
And Nori Sushi! :eek:

[mhagain]

And Nori Sushi! :eek:

And a nice joint of Beefur.

[Lotrelf]

Lotrelf, suggest you look up the various techniques of wine-making, beer-brewing etc.

Alcohol is certainly *not* a modern invention- to be honest, I'm really quite amazed that you could think so.:confused:
Actually, yes. But there's no one here who drinks-- not someone I know personally; and I never paid attention in my Chemistry class where these techniques were explained- may they had something told about that too. Well, I'm not interested in it, so I'll leave it to it.

[Lotrelf]

To everyone who says elves didn't hunt for sport:

I give you two options - either the elves did hunt for fun, or they ate dwarves.

They ate dwarves? I think that's Sauron's job to do- something that I already mentioned.

Considering how rude the elves were in PJ's Hobbit, I wouldn't be surprised at all if serving 'lesser' food was just one more way to slight the dwarves. Now, being a (very flexible) vegetarian myself, I'm not calling veggie food lesser per se, but you have to admit that lettuce doesn't constitute much of a meal.
More than the Elves I found dwarves were rude and mannerless. This is why I was too suprised to see them in the book. Though I didn't like their initial behaviour with Bilbo.

My little brother brews the most amazing beer in his dorm's basement, which is hardly a lab.
Cool! 8-)
That's all I can say.

[Aganzir]

More than the Elves I found dwarves were rude and mannerless. This is why I was too suprised to see them in the book. Though I didn't like their initial behaviour with Bilbo.
Yeah that's one of my massive problems with Peter Jackson; no nuances. If there's a general vague enmity between elves and dwarves, it has to be demonstrated every single chance they get. He and his team are building up black-and-whiteness where there's supposed to be shades of grey.

In the films, the dwarves were rude and mannerless, and the elves haughty and disdainful. Hence I wouldn't be surprised if serving a subpar dinner to the dwarves, accompanied with music and all, was an act of slight with finesse, whether it be in revenge for their poor manners or as a general "eww dwarves" notion. What saddens me most is that neither of the races is supposed to be like that.

[Lotrelf]

Yeah that's one of my massive problems with Peter Jackson; no nuances. If there's a general vague enmity between elves and dwarves, it has to be demonstrated every single chance they get. He and his team are building up black-and-whiteness where there's supposed to be shades of grey.

In the films, the dwarves were rude and mannerless, and the elves haughty and disdainful. Hence I wouldn't be surprised if serving a subpar dinner to the dwarves, accompanied with music and all, was an act of slight with finesse, whether it be in revenge for their poor manners or as a general "eww dwarves" notion. What saddens me most is that neither of the races is supposed to be like that.

Yep! Professor Tolkien's characters are grey shaded--neither black nor white. And despite showing them flawed they are shown lovable and that they are. Movies seem to rob this from the characters.
Though in the book I found Dwarves quite ungrateful. They were cool when Gandalf was with them, but when he left they would be angry, why? When Bilbo did more than he himself had imagined to do, still for Arkenstone Thorin forgot all! Perhaps this is because of the naive understanding of the text and characters; and I'd certainly like to change my opinion about them. But so far many things done by Thorin and company, I didn't find "noble". Yet, I like them all.
For the Elves, I hadn't liked Elrond in LotR:TTT much, and couldn't like him TH too. While in the book he is a different character. Perhaps what you said is true. I'll stop now.

[Gilnaur]

Yep! Professor Tolkien's characters are grey shaded--neither black nor white. And despite showing them flawed they are shown lovable and that they are. Movies seem to rob this from the characters.
Though in the book I found Dwarves quite ungrateful. They were cool when Gandalf was with them, but when he left they would be angry, why? When Bilbo did more than he himself had imagined to do, still for Arkenstone Thorin forgot all! Perhaps this is because of the naive understanding of the text and characters; and I'd certainly like to change my opinion about them. But so far many things done by Thorin and company, I didn't find "noble". Yet, I like them all.
For the Elves, I hadn't liked Elrond in LotR:TTT much, and couldn't like him TH too. While in the book he is a different character. Perhaps what you said is true. I'll stop now.

I agree. I never liked how Peter Jackson portrayed Elrond in the movie, nor did I like how elves were essentially portrayed as hippies.

[Tar-Jêx]

To put this question in different context; Are Germans sober?

A great deal many are, but there are also a great deal who stay in pubs and bars all day.
It's similar to asking whether humans are vegetarians. The response you get will be different depending on who you ask.

[Leaf]

To put this question in different context; Are Germans sober?

A great deal many are, but there are also a great deal who stay in pubs and bars all day.
It's similar to asking whether humans are vegetarians. The response you get will be different depending on who you ask.


I don't think that this analogy is very helpful. Elves are a literary concept and thus constructed in a certain way. This is especially important when it comes to a writer like Tolkien who seldom tried to write certain societies as diverse as a real society would be. On the contrary, the societies, people and persons in middle-earth are described in a mythological manner and can share the same properties. I guess one should not try to examine or explain middle-earth like it was real. Nonetheless I don't see vegetarianism as a commonly shared ideology among elves either. I guess it's a more recent fantasy trope (maybe even dating back to those LOTR readers/fans in the 60's; darn hippies!) that elves have to be
in total sync with nature, in every way.

[Tar-Jêx]

I don't think that this analogy is very helpful. Elves are a literary concept and thus constructed in a certain way. This is especially important when it comes to a writer like Tolkien who seldom tried to write certain societies as diverse as a real society would be. On the contrary, the societies, people and persons in middle-earth are described in a mythological manner and can share the same properties. I guess one should not try to examine or explain middle-earth like it was real. Nonetheless I don't see vegetarianism as a commonly shared ideology among elves either. I guess it's a more recent fantasy trope (maybe even dating back to those LOTR readers/fans in the 60's; darn hippies!) that elves have to be
in total sync with nature, in every way.

While the question is different, the nature of the answer is the same. It would depend entirely on the tribe of elves. I could see that higher class elves like Elrond would refrain from eating meats, but travelling elves would eat it just as much as a human would.

Questions which have cultural variables don't have one set answer.

[Leaf]

While the question is different, the nature of the answer is the same. It would depend entirely on the tribe of elves. I could see that higher class elves like Elrond would refrain from eating meats, but travelling elves would eat it just as much as a human would.

Questions which have cultural variables don't have one set answer.

Well, when it comes to Tolkien's writings many question with cultural variables have exactly one set answers. For instance: The dwarven societies are structured and characterized in the same way. They are outstanding craftsman and merchants. They stick with themselves and are secretive about their own cultur. I'm trying to explain that it wouldn't be out of line or surprising if all of Tolkien's elves shared the same attitude when it comes to eating meat. If you answer this question by simply refering to the diversity of people in the real world you're ignoring this. To give a proper and satisfactory answer we would have to examine the texts instead of projecting a realistic or logical view on the matter.

Your very examples show that this is a problem. The only elven tribe we could more or less) reasonably suspect to be all vegetarian are the Laiquendi, the evles of Ossiriand. The text hints that they have a problem with killing animals and yet they live scattered and withdram in the woods. Beren wandered and lived in the woods of Doriath for a very long time but he vowed not to eat animals. This doesn't make sense from a realistic point of view but from a literary or poetic one. The Noldor and Sindar, on the other hand, are civilised, wiser and by all means a higher class of elves and we do find great and prominent huntsman among them.

[Tar-Jêx]

Well, when it comes to Tolkien's writings many question with cultural variables have exactly one set answers. For instance: The dwarven societies are structured and characterized in the same way. They are outstanding craftsman and merchants. They stick with themselves and are secretive about their own cultur. I'm trying to explain that it wouldn't be out of line or surprising if all of Tolkien's elves shared the same attitude when it comes to eating meat. If you answer this question by simply refering to the diversity of people in the real world you're ignoring this. To give a proper and satisfactory answer we would have to examine the texts instead of projecting a realistic or logical view on the matter.

Your very examples show that this is a problem. The only elven tribe we could more or less) reasonably suspect to be all vegetarian are the Laiquendi, the evles of Ossiriand. The text hints that they have a problem with killing animals and yet they live scattered and withdram in the woods. Beren wandered and lived in the woods of Doriath for a very long time but he vowed not to eat animals. This doesn't make sense from a realistic point of view but from a literary or poetic one. The Noldor and Sindar, on the other hand, are civilised, wiser and by all means a higher class of elves and we do find great and prominent huntsman among them.

While your point on dwarves stands, Tolkien had few references to vegetarianism among the elves. Dwarves were stereotypically greedy craftsmen, and this stands for most of them in Middle Earth. Elves were never really given vegetarianism as a defining trait like the dwarves were to craftsmanship.

The defining elven trait would be musicianship, as there is reference to it in a lot of older media.

[Mithalwen]

Unless by sober you mean teetotal I don't think it is analogous. Sobriety is a state which fluctuates for the individual usually, on a continuum from those who never are never the least intoxicated to never not. Unless you are a total abstainer or incipient alcoholic it will vary. Vegetarianism is a way of life a perpetual state through religious or moral conviction or necessity.

Fact is that choosing ones diet is a luxury not available to many people throughout history or even now in much of the world. People ate what there was and didn't waste it. Modern food waste is pure decadence.. we fly out of season food round the world or grow it in artificial convictions and then often it is left to rot.

I think many think elves might be vegetarian because of their affinity with animals. However we know they hunt and they use wood though they love trees too. If you look at Legolas' comment about the orkish love of destruction then it seems to me that they would eat meat as they use wood. Not killing more that they need and eating "nose to tail". It seems inconceivable that they would hunt merely for sport.

[Aiwendil]

It seems inconceivable that they would hunt merely for sport.

As Aganzir pointed out, this commits you to saying that Elves ate Petty-dwarves before realizing that they were sapient people.

Moreover, I have the distinct impression that Celegorm, Curufin, Amrod, and Amras hunted for sport. That is to say, maybe they ate what they killed, but they definitely went out and killed it for fun, not because they were hungry.

[Mithalwen]

Does it? Sport and food not only reason for hunting - potential threat elimination also possible. Gimli and Legolas hunted many orcs and that was neither sport nor food. I still think it likely that most elves would eat what they hunted and I don't think the sons of Feanor are necessarily typical Elves. Kinslayers are hardly likely to have qualms about shedding animal life. Anyway hunting for sport is hardly evidence of vegetarianism. I can quite see there might be moral objections to killing animals but not eating them once they are dead is just wasteful. No doubt Dean Swift might have made a modest proposal re eating dwarves though I think you would have to cook them very slowly and they would be a nightmare to skin...

[Aiwendil]

Does it? Sport and food not only reason for hunting - potential threat elimination also possible.

That's true, and I suppose it's possible that the petty-dwarves were hunted because they were thought to be a threat. I think the more straightforward reading of 'Quendi & Eldar' is that they were hunted for sport, but I admit that's not the only reading.

Anyway hunting for sport is hardly evidence of vegetarianism.

Oh, certainly. I was not arguing for Elvish vegetarianism; indeed, there is no evidence of it whatsoever as far as I can tell. The only vegetarian I'm aware of in Middle-earth is Beren.

[Puddleglum]

Oh, certainly. I was not arguing for Elvish vegetarianism; indeed, there is no evidence of it whatsoever as far as I can tell. The only vegetarian I'm aware of in Middle-earth is Beren.Maybe Beorn? TH doesn't explicitly say so, but the only foods I see actually listed served in his house seem to have been bread, honey, nuts, fruits and mead - so perhaps ...

Possibly Bombadil & Goldberry too? They served the hobbits cream, honeycomb, bread, butter, milk, cheese, green herbs & ripe berries.

[Inziladun]

Maybe Beorn? TH doesn't explicitly say so, but the only foods I see actually listed served in his house seem to have been bread, honey, nuts, fruits and mead - so perhaps ...

Possibly Bombadil & Goldberry too? They served the hobbits cream, honeycomb, bread, butter, milk, cheese, green herbs & ripe berries.

Gandalf did advise Bilbo against mentioning the word "furrier" within Beorn's hearing, suggesting that Beorn was very possibly not in favor of killing animals, and the lack of meat at his table seems to support that.

As for Bombadil, he doesn't seem to have kept any animals, other than Fatty Lumpkin, and meat wouldn't appear to have been otherwise available to him.

That said, it might be hard to say sometimes whether vegetarianism in Middle-earth, whether it existed or not, was a conscious choice of lifestyle, or simply borne of necessity when groups had no ready access to meat.

[Galin]

Quendi And Eldar relates that the Petty-dwarves attacked the Eldar by stealth at night, or if they caught them alone in wild places...

... thus (in my opinion) the Petty-dwarves were hunted -- although it does say the Eldar at first thought them a kind of cunning animal too, noting that they rarely saw them in good light.

Well that's how I interpreted this much anyway.

[Tar-Jêx]

Gandalf did advise Bilbo against mentioning the word "furrier" within Beorn's hearing, suggesting that Beorn was very possibly not in favor of killing animals, and the lack of meat at his table seems to support that.

As for Bombadil, he doesn't seem to have kept any animals, other than Fatty Lumpkin, and meat wouldn't appear to have been otherwise available to him.

That said, it might be hard to say sometimes whether vegetarianism in Middle-earth, whether it existed or not, was a conscious choice of lifestyle, or simply borne of necessity when groups had no ready access to meat.

In medieval times, it was hard to be a healthy person without eating meat. For the peasants, meat was a luxury, but they weren't vegetarian.

[Galadriel55]

I was just thinking of a certain scene in the books (sadly don't have books with me, can't quote, but would appreciate if somebody did) from Flotsam and Jetsam that may be of interest. What kind of food do Pippin and Merry offer? They don't have much - beer, bread and honey, ham. Nothing says that or dear Legolas specifically did not eat the ham, but I've always assumed everybody ate everything.

So if it makes you happy, you can debate whether Legolas was surviving on bread and honey or if his behaviour proves that Elves are not vegetarian. ;) I don't really feel like arguing it either way.

[Alfirin]

In medieval times, it was hard to be a healthy person without eating meat. For the peasants, meat was a luxury, but they weren't vegetarian.

Particularly if you are not really agrarian, as some of the elves probably were not (i.e. I not sure ALL the elves had farms around). Getting enough protein to stay alive is hard unless you are actively growing something you can stockpile, or live in a tropical region where there are seeds and nuts of some sort year round. That's one of the big reasons that most of the major agrarian societies relied so heavily on legumes of one kind or another. Once your population gets big enough that major meat consumption for everyone is not longer feasible, you NEED that pulse crop to make up the gap. Or why I say "Contrary to what most people thing, a hill of beans amounts to quite a lot." Even dairy can only get you so far, as you have to make sure that you dairy stock is perpetually lactating (not always easy to do, if you can't convince your rams and bucks to do their job on a given doe/ewe or you're a peasant family with only one or two milk cows who needs to find someone ELSE with a bull to "freshen" her.) or get really, really good at making hard cheese. It's a little hard to imagine Beren spending his whole autumn gathering nuts and acorns with the mania of a squirrel, but that is probably what he would have to do I he had really committed to a no meat lifestyle (unless I am right, and the animals got so close to him that he could milk the deer and collect the unfertilized eggs of the wild birds. and even those would be seasonal)

[Nerwen]

So if it makes you happy, you can debate whether Legolas was surviving on bread and honey or if his behaviour proves that Elves are not vegetarian. I don't really feel like arguing it either way.
Honestly I’m not sure why anyone does, at this stage, as it seems to me that the case was closed a long time ago. I think it’s worth pointing out that the original question arises, not from anything Tolkien wrote about his Elves, but from Jackson's portrayal of them in "Unexpected Journey". (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=691316&postcount=25) The OP was puzzled at the discrepancy between this and the description in the book of the Wood Elves feasting on “roast meats”. (http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=691212&postcount=1)

[Elmo]

Elven lifestyle is more about use of nature out of necessity, rather than "because we can".

Dunno, in Valinor which is paradise, do they really need to hunt and kill for food? Hunting in Tolkien's day wasn't really seen as that bad a thing. Though, Nimrodel despised the 'Elves of the West' for bringing war and strife, perhaps hunting is a sign of this. The Eldar really weren't one with nature especially compared to the Avari/Silvan Elves. Not very natural living in big stone towers and wearing steel armour.

[Orphalesion]

Dunno, in Valinor which is paradise, do they really need to hunt and kill for food? Hunting in Tolkien's day wasn't really seen as that bad a thing.

I assume so, I can't really picture Yavanna or Orome zapping freshly cooked roasts onto the plates of the Elves. Likewise I also think they still had to build their own houses, grow grain, farm animals, weave cloth, tan leather, forge tools etc. They just had an easier time doing these things than humans or even their brethren in Endor.



Though, Nimrodel despised the 'Elves of the West' for bringing war and strife, perhaps hunting is a sign of this. The Eldar really weren't one with nature especially compared to the Avari/Silvan Elves. Not very natural living in big stone towers and wearing steel armour.

I don't really see "hunting" as equal to war and strive, rather I think that Nimrodel had lived through the War of Sauron against the Elves as well as the last Alliance and blamed the Eldar for Sauron's presence so close to her home, perhaps believing that he had followed the Eldar from Beleriand.
I'm pretty sure the Sylvan Elves hunted already, the Eldar that had come to Mirkwood had adopted Sylvan culture, still they hunted and ate meat.

Personally I think the Green Elves of Ossirand were just their own culture and had developed their ways of not hunting animals and cutting wood for dwellings only after Denethor had died in order to be as invisible to intruders as possible. If these aspects were really true for all of the Green Elven tribes (which probably were very disconnected from one another) Calling the humans "murders of animals" can mean a lot, perhaps the Elves just meant the men were hunting more than they needed to survive?

[Inziladun]

Personally I think the Green Elves of Ossirand were just their own culture and had developed their ways of not hunting animals and cutting wood for dwellings only after Denethor had died in order to be as invisible to intruders as possible. If these aspects were really true for all of the Green Elven tribes (which probably were very disconnected from one another) Calling the humans "murders of animals" can mean a lot, perhaps the Elves just meant the men were hunting more than they needed to survive?

It seems to me that the Green-elves saw Men as more guilty of 'disturbing the peace' than any more substantial crime. They probably saw the potential Men had for rapidly increasing their numbers and settling nearby, and were just looking for some excuse to pawn them off on Finrod, and hope he would take them out of the area.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Consider the Plains Indian reaction to the white buffalo hunters. It wasn't that the Sioux and Arapaho had any objection to hunting buffalo, per se......

[Morthoron]

Would elves be vegans if they ate ents? Or aint ents edible?

[Inziladun]

Would elves be vegans if they ate ents? Or aint ents edible?

Of course. Skin-bok choy and Quinoa-beam were on the Isengard dinner menu. Saruman just wanted to turn over a new leaf. ;)

[Alfirin]

Well, Skinbark is supposed to be sort of like a birch tree, so I imagine his blood/sap can be boiled down to syrup, or used to make "hard" birch beer.

Actually I think you can make syrup out of oak sap too (I know you can make honey out of it, via aphids and sapin) so Treebeard and Leaflock may be at risk too (Leaflock is an oakish ent, right. He looked oaky in the PJ movie, but I seem to remember something about him actually being meant to be like an ash, or a beech.)

[mhagain]

Particularly if you are not really agrarian, as some of the elves probably were not
Most of the Noldor and many of the Sindar were actually quite urbanized. Elves (or at least the Eldar) appear to have liked living in cities.

Tirion-on-Tuna, Alqualonde, Gondolin, Nargothrond, Menegroth, Ost-in-Edhil, Caras Galadhon, Mithlond, even Thraduil's caves - they were all cities.

[Alfirin]

Urbanized doesn't really help, unless there's a "rural" to go along with it. It isn't a matter of how civilized you are or how many cities you have. If there isn't a largish farm area around to provide it with food, the cities tend to have a big problem, since there tends not to be a lot of "direct" (first link in chain) food production there (depending on the level of the cities, there could be small gardens and little flocks and herds of eating animals, but probably not enough to cover the cities whole food needs. Food takes a lot of space to produce. That's sort of why camping out ouside a city is effective as a method of conquest; you CAN'T make enough food inside the walls to cover the population, so eventually the people inside starve. We already KNOW Thranduil is willing to trade for wine. I imagine that, if we looked closer, a lot of the base FOOD (flour, vegetables etc.) also had their origins outside of Thranduils domain.

All I was trying to get at is that, if you want to be vegetarian, you sort of need to know that there are people out there growing lots and lots of legumes or milking lots and lots of animals to provide you with all that protein.

[Orphalesion]

Urbanized doesn't really help, unless there's a "rural" to go along with it. It isn't a matter of how civilized you are or how many cities you have. If there isn't a largish farm area around to provide it with food, the cities tend to have a big problem, since there tends not to be a lot of "direct" (first link in chain) food production there (depending on the level of the cities, there could be small gardens and little flocks and herds of eating animals, but probably not enough to cover the cities whole food needs. Food takes a lot of space to produce. That's sort of why camping out ouside a city is effective as a method of conquest; you CAN'T make enough food inside the walls to cover the population, so eventually the people inside starve. We already KNOW Thranduil is willing to trade for wine. I imagine that, if we looked closer, a lot of the base FOOD (flour, vegetables etc.) also had their origins outside of Thranduils domain.

All I was trying to get at is that, if you want to be vegetarian, you sort of need to know that there are people out there growing lots and lots of legumes or milking lots and lots of animals to provide you with all that protein.

Agreed almost all Elven realms described by Tolkien would have had to possess agrarian areas.

Even taking into account that Elves possibly were able to comfortably survive on less food than humans, Tumladen likely was non-stop farms from the walls of Gondolin all the way to the mountains, Nargothrond would have relied on nearby farming villages, Rivendell likely included farms and vegetable gardens/orchards.

It gets a bit more complicated to explain places like Ossiriand, Doriath and Lothlorien that were heavily forested and unlikely to trade with outsiders for large parts of their history.
However even those still had 1) enough fields in "hidden glades" to grow the corn needed for Lembas 2) likely practiced forest based agriculture like some tribes of Native Americans did.

[Alfirin]

I wonder if mallorn seeds are edible? (the seed is described as a "nut" but not every nut is something you can eat) However much they may have valued the trees for their beauty (and their convenience for putting houses in.) the grove probably produced far more nuts than it would be feasible to re-plant, so eating them could be a possibility.

Indian wise (if we are thinking along those lines), I might imagine something along the diet of some of the California Indian tribes, who often relied on acorns as their primary carbohydrate source. Assuming the forests of Lorien are similar to European forests in tree makeup, there'd probably be large areas of chestnuts and beeches as well (you can eat beech nuts if you know how to leach and prepare them, same as acorns) On the oily-fatty tree nut side, there'd probably be hazel copses, and maybe some walnuts and almonds (If Gondor/Ithillien is supposed to be somewhere in the Tuscany region latitude wise (I remember than from an earlier discussion about why Sam though Gollum would be able to find wild bay laurels), Lorien is probably something along the lines of Northern/Middle France, so walnuts can grow there (though not necessarily as well as further south.) Possibly, even some of the more cold tolerant varieties of olive. and of course all kinds of lesser plants in the odd open clearings.

But, given the food issues I sometimes wonder if Galadriel (who, having come from Aman, would have probably familiar with all of the trees of that place) Sometimes might have thought that, as nice and pretty as mallornen were, her people might have been better off if fate had given them a DIFFERENT kind of Amanian tree, like Yavannamire, which we KNOW has edible fruit (I assume that any fruit described as "luscious" is probably good to eat.)