<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 68</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: I started a new thread in Silm
1)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
So, if The Silmarillion won't serve we're just going to jump around from text to text? I'll accept going forward, but not going back. Since you've jumped to The Peoples of Middle-earth I insist we stay there, or go back to The Silmarillion.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I have used sources other than the Silmarillion previously in this thread, for example quotes or references in posts: 3/20/01,7:30 pm; 3/20/01,10:54 pm; and 3/21/01,8:27pm.
As far as you _insisting_ on what we do, there is nothing prior posts which stipulate that I am to use only one source, or that we are only discussing the Silmarillion. We are discussing the 'Kingship of the Noldor' and there are relevant materials by JRRT throughout the corpus, and I will use them as needed. If you wish to use only The Silmarillion, that is your right, and if you would like me to use just The Silmarillion, you could politely _ask_, rather than _insist_ (or put succinctly do not try to tell me what to do).
2)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Finfgolfin did not claim any kingship upon his father's death.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
"(after Morgoth had contived the murder of Finwe) Feanor was deprived of the leadership, and the greater part of the Noldor who forsook Valinor marched under the command of Fingolfin, the eldest son of Indis ... and in spite of the enmity between him and Feanor he joined with full will in the rebellion and the exile, though he continued to claim the kingship of all the Noldor."
PoME.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Which Christopher points out is in conflict with what is written in "the final story" (on page 361 in end note 32 -- references are to "The Shibboleth of Feanor" unless otherwise stated):
Quote:
The note follows on the text where Tolkien wrote:
Quote:
...Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwe to Nolofinwe before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwe, and so enraqed Feanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships. The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth. The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest.
[End Quote]
So there are some serious problems for your case here if you're going to insist on using the Shibboleth as a basis for your argument.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I see no serious problems. Fingolfin said 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow' before Finwe was dead, and before Feanor claimed the kingship. In context Fingolfin's statement has nothing to do with Feanor's 'kingship' (or lack thereof). It is noted in HoME 10: "'The greater part marched behind Fingolfin, who with his sons yielded to the general voice against their wisdom, because they would not desert their people' my father noted on a copy of LQ 2: 'also because of the promise made by Fingolfin above)'. This refers to a passage in the final rewriting of the previous chapter (p. 257, ~58c), where Fingolfin said to Feanor before Manwe 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow.'"
Here Fingolfin follows Feanor into Exile because of his promise and because he will not desert his people (who do not renounce his rule).
3)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
The divisions of the Noldor appear to derive from Feanor's own actions and choices.
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Refer to quote in above post.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Which has nothing to do with the point I made.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Which refers to the actions of Feanor causing division. Feanor was 'acting like a king' by marshalling the Noldor. However most of the Noldor were not 'of a mind to take Feanor as King and refused to renounce Fingolfin'.
4)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
I believe that Fingolfin was in fact a king after Feanor abandoned him in Araman. It's not clear that Fingolfin's first rule over the Noldor was as king, or that he ever claimed to be a king until Feanor stole the ships.
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I have posted on the contextual changes of Fingolfin's kingship (or lack thereof) in Tirion above.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
I have pointed out your errors and the problems with your sources.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
No you have not. In post: 3/20/01 10:54pm, I referred to a passage in Quenta Silmarillion where JRRT writes of kingship of Fingolfin over the Noldor of Tuna. I pointed out that he does not use 'kingship' in his later rewrites of this passage, which seems to indicate a change in the conception. Where is the error?
5)
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Quothe MichaelMartinez:
When Fingolfin's host entered Middle-earth, however, he unfurled his banners and had his trumpets sounded. This appears to be the action of a king (note Aragorn's march on Mordor displays similar claims of authority).
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Or a great captain and chieftain, even acting as a king, but who wants to be THE King.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
There are no texts where any great captains or chieftains do such a thing. The unfurling of banners and sounding of trumpets (and procession of heralds, for that matter) is clearly a royal prerogative in Tolkien. Captains act on behalf of their leaders, not in their own rights.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
"But the host of the Valar prepared for battle; and beneath their white banners warched the Vanyar, the people of Ingwe...".
"But at last the might of Valinor came up out of the West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eonwe filled the sky."
6)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Maedhros, however, was being diplomatic and trying to heal the division of his people. Ceding the kingship to Fingolfin was a significant act. He clearly was able to establish a new kingship (as were Turgon and Finrod) a year or two later.
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Maedhros 'waived his _claim_ to kingship over ALL the Noldor'. He established _A_ kingship over part of the Noldor.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
In the context I provided WAY UP ABOVE, that is, The Silmarillion, Maedhros was king the moment his father died. Fingolfin's kingship appears to have begun when Feanor abandoned him, but Maedhros was still, technically, the heir of Finwe.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I have been discussing 'The Kingship of the Noldor', not 'The Kingship of the Noldor as it appears in The Silmarillion'. But as I have shown, in 'The Silmarillion' Feanor only _claims_ the position 'King of the Noldor'. But the majority of the Noldor do not accept his claim, and refuse to renounce the rule of Fingolfin. In 'The Silmarillion' Maedhros 'waives his _claim_ to Kingship over all the Noldor', all he has is a claim, not the Kingship itself.
7)
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Quote Michael Martinez:
The line of authority thus passes from Finwe to Feanor, from Feanor to Maedhros, and from Maedhros to Fingolfin. But in the meantime, new lines of authority were established by Fingolfin and Finarfin. Fingolfin's kingship was established by the fact that Feanor abandoned most of his people.
Quothe Tar-Elenion
Authority passes from Finwe to the rival claimants (Feanor and Fingolfin). Feanor who has already claimed the Kingship does not refer to himself as King when speaking to the Noldor when they are stopped by the Herald of the Valar: "Then will this valiant people send forth the heir of their King alone into banishment with his sons only?".
Interesting. He does not ask the Noldor if they will send forth their King, but only the 'heir' of their King. Why if he was actually their King does he not calll himself that? Because he was claiming the title, but had not been accepted as such?
Quothe Micheal Martinez:
No, authority passes to Feanor, as I stipulated. You're trying to bring in a secondary and contradictory text which is (on the points of kingships) largely incompatible with The Silmarillion.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
My 'send forth the heir of their King' quote is from 'The Silmarillion'. Once again: Feanor here has already _claimed_ the Kingship of the Noldor when he says this. But he does not refer to himself as King, only as 'heir of the King'.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
We weren't speaking of "The Shibboleth of Feanor" we were speaking of The Silmarillion. Big difference there. You would do well to disallow your unannounced shift of context since it's landed your argument in a mire of contradictions.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
_WE_ were not doing any such thing. _I_ was discussing 'The Kingship of the Noldor'. If _YOU_ were 'speaking only of The Silmarillion' then you would have done well to state when we started discussing this that _you_ only wished to use 'The Silmarillion'. My argument that Feanor was not 'The King of The Noldor', nor was Maedhros, has yet to be contradicted by the corpus. It is your arguments that have been textually contradicted.
9)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Fingolfin did not inherit his authority from Finwe in either account, that of The Silmarillion or that of "The Shibboleth of Feanor". The Shibboleth does attempt to explain his name in a new context, but in constructing that context tears down other themes (the kingships established by Maedhros, Turgon, and Finrod early in the First Age) which are firmly embedded in the texts.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
The contradiction is there if you wish to interpret it as such, I prefer to justify and reconcile _apparent_ contradictions before making the claim that it is a contradiction . So there were certainly various 'kingships' before the fall of Fingolfin, but they became became more seperate and divided after his death, especially with the ruin of Beleriand.
10)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
We are both dancing on pinheads here. My initial point stands because I had clearly indicated I was using The Silmarillion as a source. Bringing in a secondary source to rebut The Silmarillion is only useful if the secondary source is both authoritative and coherent, not to mention with related texts. In this case there is neither authority for the Shibboleth (because it contradicts everything else) nor even coherence.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion
We have both be using 'The Silmarillion' as _a_ source. But I have not been using it as _the_ source, especially since there are other highly relevant materials out there. I never agreed to limit myself. As the Silmarillion itself is not authoritative and is as much as secondary source as any other work that JRRT did not complete, it is quite useful to bring in the Shibboleth.
<snip>
11)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
In The Silmarillion, the kingship remained with Finwe until he died, and then passed to Feanor, and then a new kingship began with Finarfin (after he turned back) and with Fingolfin (after Feanor abandoned him), and then the original kingship passed to Maedhros, who ceded it to Fingolfin.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
A great theory but 'The Silmarillion' does not support you.
In The Silmarillion, Finwe was the first King of the Noldor.
At the banishment of Feanor, Finwe held himself to be 'unkinged' and Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in his place. However Finwe is still referred to as the King. After Finwe's death, Feanor _claims_ the Kingship, but the majority of the Noldor refuse to renounce Fingolfin. Later when speaking of himself Feanor calls himself the 'heir of the King', he does not call himelf 'the King'. When Feanor dies Maedhros has a claim on the Kingship. He waives that claim in favour of Fingolfin to whom he says the Kingship would rightly come. This Kingship passed to Fingolfin because he was the eldest of the house of Finwe there and the Kingship was previously Finwe's.
12)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Wrong divisions of the Noldor. Look at the passage where Feanor abandons the majority in Araman. The fleet was manned "only by those who had fought" at Alqualonde. That could include some of Fingon's warriors, though not Fingon himself
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Correct divisions.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
No, they are the WRONG divisions because I raised the point and I know darned good and well what I was referring to. I have explained what I was referring to. Thank you for not rewriting what I say.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
You were responding to my posted responce to lindil, which spoke of Maedhros leading the Feanorians after Feanor's death but that the majority of the Noldor were still with Fingolfin. I was speaking of the divisions among the Noldor. You responded that the divisions were not clearly stipulated at this point and I showed that the divisions had long since begun to occur. You then mentioned that the Fleet when Feanor abandoned Fingolfin etc could have had some of Fingon's warriors with it, which seemed to imply that the Noldor were not so divided as some of the Fingolfians were with Feanor [this seemed to be what you were impling]. You then provided a partial quote to back up your statement ('the fleet was manned only by those who fought at Alqualonde'), to which I supplied the remainder of the quote so that the context would be more clear, 'and were BOUND to Feanor'. Thank you for not taking my statements out of context.
13)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Unless someone forgot to tell Fingon that Feanor had led the way, it's pretty certain he had a good idea of whom he was helping.
Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Fingon went to the aid of his kin. Feanor was his uncle and hence his kin.
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Everyone knew Feanor was in the lead. The book states quite clearly that Fingon thought the Noldor were being attacked, and that included Feanor.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
You started this by saying that since Fingon rushed to Feanor's aid Feanor was acknowleged king of all the Noldor (or words to that effect). I pointed out that the text says Fingon went to the aid of his _KIN_, not his _KING_. Feanor was his KIN. We both know who was being attacked so what ever you are tring to argue there is pointless.
<snip>
14)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
I'm actually quite satisfied to stay with the text I was discussing originally" The Silmarillion. Staying in context is the only way to keep any meaning to this discussion.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I am quite satisfied to look at the full context of the matter under discussion, The Kingship of The Noldor. Looking at the full context is the only way to get a much more informed veiw.
15)
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Quothe Lindil:
Michael:
Maedhros was clearly ging to be ina position of leadership amongst the feanorians prior to Fingolfin's arrival and subsequent to Feanor' eath. How could he not be the leader of the feanorians?
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Maehdros is not a "chieftain" in The Silmarillion. There is no such title and I was merely flinging Tar-Elenion's nit-picking back at him over the absence of words in the text (which is why we suddenly found ourselves in a discussion of "The Shibboleth of Feanor" -- conveniently, the word "chieftain" may be found there).
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Actually I was quoting from 'Quendi and Eldar' regarding the 'chieftain' comment. You accuse me of 'nit-picking' and then do the same thing yourself? That 'Maedhros is not a 'chieftain' in The Silmarillion' is beside the point. I am not discussing just The Silmarillion nor have I been. Besides you initial post said 'nowhere' not 'nowhere in The Simarillion'. The context of the quote I supplied is clear enough.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Maedhros is first named as a prince (see the chapter "Of Eldamar and the princes of the Eldalie"). Later on he becomes a king. He is never a chieftain.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion
'Quendi and Eldar' of course contradicts this. Though that is out of the narrow context you are attempting to define.
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Quothe lindil:
MM:"But Fingolfin had not been acknowledged as king or declared to be king, and had not claimed the kingship (or any kingship).
lindil: but he had been ruling the Noldor of Tirion for nigh in a decade [of Valinorean years?]
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Show me where The Silmarillion says he was a king in Tirion. That was the point of the entire exercise.
There was only one king at the time: Feanor.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
There was only one King at the time Fingolfin ruled in Tirion: Finwe.
1<img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">
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Quoth Lindil:
It seems the final answer to Fingolfin as[claiming and being folowed as ] King [by the majority] in Valinor is yes from the PoME and no from the 77 well after looking over JRRT's PoME it is possible that he conceived of Fingolfin's ruling the Noldor as a kIngship ,btu he certainly never stated it a ssuch and it seems w/ the 77 and Morgoth's Ring versions he would have been renouncing any such claim before the throne of Manwe . this is to my mind a somewhat difficult situation.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Except that '77 says that the majority of Noldor refused to renounce Fingolfin. Also Fingolfin did not renounce any claim to the Kingship before the throne of Manwe. Finwe was King, and Fingolfin was not claiming the Kingship until after Finwe died.
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Quothe Lindil:
I do [as do other veiwers not posting] find the whole thing fascinating even though I am not up to the speed of yourselves [Michael and Tar - Elenion], I do hope however that we can avoid loss of peace in the discussion [def. one of the most interesting in the Books forum in a while].
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
I hope so to, and would prefer not to be provoked. I find it very interesting.
20)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
Lindil, The Peoples of Middle-earth is useful for dealing with issues of canon in The Silmarillion but not for dealing with issues of text in The Silmarillion.
You might as well quote Shakespeare.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Then it is a good thing we are discussing the 'Kingship of the Noldor' and not 'the text in the Silmarillion'.
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
There is no provision in any other text for the kingships of the Noldor in Beleriand arising after the fall of Fingolfin. The "Shibboleth" can only reasonably be accepted as canonical if it A) provides information which is not provided elsewhere without conflicting with primary texts or B) provides information which Christopher Tolkien specifically attributes greater authority to than to other texts.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
In your opinion. Not in mine.
<snip>
22)
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
I don't want to get angry and I don't want to put anyone in a bad light. Those late night messages can sometimes come across pretty rough, though, try as I might not to say anything offensive.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Okay.
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23)
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Quothe lindil:
while this Fingolfin as King conception creates difficulties for the MR and 77 versions , I am not sure yewt if they are to damaging to the text. They certainly give Feanor more reason [prideful ones I admit ] to have abandoned them and in general advances the subtlty and depth of the story. It is conceivable that since we don't know JRRt's mind as to wether he would have kept the setting aside of the sword - drawing by fingolfin and his words" Thou shalt lead and I will folow." I think w/ out a deep exploration of the texts and it's implications
it might be conceivable to keep both.
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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
Quite. See above for some related matter to 'thou shalt lead' passage.
Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>[i]Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 3/22/01 9:39:59 pm