Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest

[Moonraker]

The leadership of Gandalf was questioned by the Company when he decided to choose the dark and dangerous path into Moria. At this point, should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest and taken over the leadership of the Company to help protect the Ring?

[Inziladun]

Is this a serious question?

Gandalf was the accepted leader not only of the Fellowship, but as far as Aragorn was concerned, the struggle against Sauron. Aragorn had been a pupil and friend of Gandalf for many years. He questioned the decision to go to Moria both out of a personal bad memory of a prior journey, and a foreboding that Gandalf would meet some peril there. His reluctance was not based on any lack of faith in Gandalf as a leader or a guide.

And also, by what authority could an "arrest" have been made? That's lunacy. At most, any member of the company who wished was free to stop following Gandalf and go their own way. It's notable that none did so. Gandalf retained their trust even under the direst of circumstances.

[Moonraker]

Is this a serious question?

Gandalf was the accepted leader not only of the Fellowship, but as far as Aragorn was concerned, the struggle against Sauron. Aragorn had been a pupil and friend of Gandalf for many years. He questioned the decision to go to Moria both out of a personal bad memory of a prior journey, and a foreboding that Gandalf would meet some peril there. His reluctance was not based on any lack of faith in Gandalf as a leader or a guide.

And also, by what authority could an "arrest" have been made? That's lunacy. At most, any member of the company who wished was free to stop following Gandalf and go their own way. It's notable that none did so. Gandalf retained their trust even under the direst of circumstances.

I believe every member of the Company, including Frodo, were against taking the road into Moria. Even Celeborn thought this road was folly and needless. Aragorn, as future King of Gondor, had as much authority to arrest Gandalf as anyone. The only thing that mattered was the safety of the Ring. Your ''lunacy'' comment was offensive, but that is just you. The path into Moria was seen as lunacy by others. Aragorn even warned Gandalf that this choice could lead to his own doom, which it did. Had Gandalf known of the Balrog, he would not have chosen this road.

[Aiwendil]

Aragorn, as future King of Gondor, had as much authority to arrest Gandalf as anyone.

Which is to say, none.

[Moonraker]

Which is to say, none.

The fate of the Ring was the only thing that mattered. Aragorn could have declared that as of now he makes all the decisions and will lead the Company elsewhere, and not through Moria. He may have had no legal power to have Gandalf arrested at the gate of Moria, but that would have changed once he was sworn in as King of Gondor.

[Belegorn]

Even if they wanted to, none of them would be able to arrest Gandalf. None were forced to follow Gandalf.

[Formendacil]

Let's imagine, for one absurdly out-of-character second, that Aragorn WOULD have considered "arresting Gandalf" and/or asserting himself as the mutinous new leader of the company. Even had he already become King of Gondor and Arnor, or had the quest somehow waited until he was, this would still, as Aiwendil so succinctly put it, none of the authority required to arrest Gandalf.

Authority, never mind the actual ability.

Gandalf was a subject of neither the Kingdom of Arnor nor Gondor, over which Aragorn's writ extended. He was, in point of fact, an emissary of the Valar, which, if we continue this line of thought, still leaves him a foreign national--and a foreign national rather in the diplomatic service.

Beyond this, when at the walls of Moria, the company was not in the realms of Gondor or Arnor. Depending on where one draws the exact line, they were either still in Hollin or they were across the threshold into Moria. If one takes the first position, which I incline towards, then they were in what was essentially noman's land.

I seem to recall it being suggested (I cannot recall the text--possibly the Epilogue?) that, by his marriage to Arwen, Aragorn's heirs would inherit the remaining tracts of land still belonging to the High Elves in Middle-earth, namely Lindon, Rivendell, and Eregion (all under the possession of the House of Finwë, which would be remain solely represented in her heirs after the passing of Elrond, Galadriel, and the eventually death/passing of Elladan and Elrohir).

However, this had not happened at the time of the Fellowship. Hollin was still, at that time, a vacant kingdom under either the nominal lordship of the Heir of Celebrimbor (presumably Elrond, the next-of-kin as the nearest descendent of Fingolfin, who was Fëanor's heir after the exhaustion of his own line) or would have been kingdomless, but part of the greater domains of the High King of Eldar (depending on the tradition one accepts for Gil-galad's parentage, either Elrond or Galadriel). Either way, it is clear from the officially defined boundaries of Arnor--themselves not set until half an Age after the fall of Eregion, that Hollin was considered beyond-the-borders of Arnor, and thus outside the law of her king.

If, however, we stretch the borders of Khazad-dûm beyond the doors to include the doorstep, Aragorn is STILL not king of that land, and even less likely to rule it, since I don't think he was going to be a polygamous king with a second consort wedded to the only daughter of Thorin III (and that's assuming that Dwarves can inherit through the female line--people seem to assume this of Fíli and Kíli, but I don't recall it ever saying in any text that Thorin Oakenshield's sister-sons were the Heirs of the Durin after him).

Gimli, perhaps, as the ranking Dwarf (in all Moria, though they did not know it) could have done so, but we all know that he was on Gandalf's side for going IN to Moria.

[Moonraker]

Even if they wanted to, none of them would be able to arrest Gandalf. None were forced to follow Gandalf.

To be frank, I always thought Tolkein wanted the journey through Moria for the excitement factor, much more than the endless trekking on land like in the Hobbit. He was prepared to put Gandalf's own reputation on the line to ensure that the Company did go though Moria, and not via other safer means.

Let's imagine, for one absurdly out-of-character second, that Aragorn WOULD have considered "arresting Gandalf" and/or asserting himself as the mutinous new leader of the company. Even had he already become King of Gondor and Arnor, or had the quest somehow waited until he was, this would still, as Aiwendil so succinctly put it, none of the authority required to arrest Gandalf.

Authority, never mind the actual ability.

Had it got to a heated argument (which it almost did) between Aragorn and Gandalf on taking the road to Moria, Aragorn could have made the case that he was putting the fate of the quest in great peril, and that he would take over the leadership if Gandalf did not back down. Supposing Gandalf did not back down, then Aragorn may have stated that once sworn in as King of Gondor he would not forget this encounter and would press charges on Gandalf on grounds of placing the fate of Middle Earth at risk (i.e. treason).

This charge would be far fetched to execute, especially if the Company did just fine in Moria, but nevertheless that is what the Moonraker likes, to stretch the realms of possibility to the limits.

[Belegorn]

I believe every member of the Company, including Frodo, were against taking the road into Moria. Even Celeborn thought this road was folly and needless.

Celeborn may have thought so, but Galadriel admonished him nevertheless.

He would be rash indeed that said that thing <...> Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life.

Let us go back to what happened. Gandalf recalled that "Aragorn was against it, until the pass over the mountains had at least been tried." [ch. 4] They tried and they failed. Boromir suggested they go south by the Gap of Rohan but Gandalf told him that as long as the Ring was with them they could not because there was Saruman in waiting. Besides, when Boromir compared Moria to a stronghold of Sauron Gandalf admonished him in the following manner:

I alone of you have ever been in the dungeons of the Dark Lord, and only in his older and lesser dwelling in Dol Guldur. Those who pass the gates of Barad-dûr do not return.

He would not lead them into Moria if there was no way out. Even though he did not make it, he got them out in the end. Gimli was not averse to going through Moria, though Aragorn and Boromir were. However, Gandalf said it best I think.

the question is: who will follow me, if I lead you there?

Aragorn pointedly replied, "You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame."

not via other safer means

But were the other, watched ways, really safer?

[Moonraker]

But were the other, watched ways, really safer?

All roads were being watched, so Moria was never going to be the safest option in any case. Gimli was not against going to Moria, but he was biased as a dwarf to want to go there for personal reasons (Balin, Mithril, the legend of Moria etc), and not for reasons in context of the quest.

[Inziladun]

All roads were being watched, so Moria was never going to be the safest option in any case. Gimli was not against going to Moria, but he was biased as a dwarf to want to go there for personal reasons (Balin, Mithril, the legend of Moria etc), and not for reasons in context of the quest.

But there was the possibility of Dwarves from Erebor still being in Moria. What's better, the potential at least for some friendly faces, or a long trek through the wilderness that took one nearer and nearer to Isengard?

If there had been a better way to go, Aragorn would have suggested one. Boromir's alternatives were logically shot down, leaving Moria the best option.

[Moonraker]

If there had been a better way to go, Aragorn would have suggested one. Boromir's alternatives were logically shot down, leaving Moria the best option.

They could have called on the help of the Eagles for safe passage to Lorien. Also, Rivendell had steeds available that the Nine could not rival. Not that Tolkein would have wanted that, it would have killed the story, and the plot.

[Belegorn]

Aragorn could have made the case that he was putting the fate of the quest in great peril

Aragorn already made the case that he himself had already put them all in great peril and Gandalf did not even use it against him.

You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame.

Recall what happened so that debate was halted.

The Wargs have come west of the Mountains!

So Gandalf's argument was already coming to pass. They should not go on longer watched roads. Already they were set upon and they were not even making for the Gap of Rohan!

The hunt is up! Even if we live to see the dawn, who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his tail?

Wolves, orcs, birds watching the land, and even Saruman was out and about. So imagine that they are beset in the south by Orcs and Wargs and out comes Saruman as he did before when Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas were in the south searching for Merry and Pippin.

Gimli looked up, and there just on the edge of the firelight stood an old bent man, leaning on a staff, and wrapped in a great cloak; his wide-brimmed hat was pulled down over his eyes. <...> You certainly did not see me <...> therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman.

Saruman has armies and is himself a Maia as Gandalf noted, "reckoned as a lord and captain Saruman has grown very strong." [TTT, ch. 5, p. 119] Should they make south, as Boromir wished, they would not only lengthen their journey and have greater preparations made for their capture, but they would already be on the run from the Enemy by night and by day.

Moria was never going to be the safest option in any case

If you choose to assume the Balrog and his band of Orcs are a greater threat than Saruman and his armies who're looking for the Ring.

They could have called on the help of the Eagles for safe passage to Lorien

So far as I know the Eagles were not simply called upon to do Gandalf or anyone else's bidding.

[Moonraker]

If you choose to assume the Balrog and his band of Orcs are a greater threat than Saruman and his armies who're looking for the Ring.

The Balrog was the deadliest of the elf banes, save Sauron himself, as Legolas put it. So in this context, Gandalf would not have wished an encounter with a deadlier Maiar such as the Balrog of Morgoth than Saruman or the Witch King. The Company were also beset with other dangers, such as trolls, uruks, Gollum, and the uncertain dark path through the maze of Moria that may have had a dead end to trap them. Wolves or no wolves, Moria was not a safer option.

I cannot imagine Elrond supporting the road through Moria either. I seem to imagine him saying something like, ''I do not call this good counsel. Moria is a dark and unknown quantity to us, and we have no certainty that there is a way out of that accursed realm''. Sounds similar to what Aragorn said. If I was just an ordinary man or hobbit, I would not have followed Gandalf into Moria.

[Zigûr]

If you choose to assume the Balrog and his band of Orcs are a greater threat than Saruman and his armies who're looking for the Ring.
No one knew that there was a Balrog in Moria, however. They knew that there was something but not what it was.
They could have called on the help of the Eagles for safe passage to Lorien.
So far as I know the Eagles were not simply called upon to do Gandalf or anyone else's bidding.
Moreover, how could Gandalf have simply "called on the help of the Eagles"? The only reason Gwaihir came to Isengard was because Radagast sent him. Later, around the time of the Council of Elrond, Radagast had disappeared. So I don't see how the Eagles were an option out in the wilderness. They appeared at other times when they were sent by someone else who had access to them.

As was established by Elrond, no one was under any obligation to do anything except Frodo himself, so I don't see how trying to force the issue by coercing Gandalf would have achieved anything. Wouldn't Aragorn "arresting" Gandalf (as implausible as the notion is in itself) have completely contradicted the fact that in the end it was Frodo who really had the final say in what happened?

[Andsigil]

The leadership of Gandalf was questioned by the Company when he decided to choose the dark and dangerous path into Moria. At this point, should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest and taken over the leadership of the Company to help protect the Ring?

Wait... what?

You're asking if Aragorn should have (...ahem...) arrested his longtime friend of about 60 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragorn#History) because they disagreed about a route?

I was in the army, and I never thought of arresting someone I knew because they had a route or strategy different than mine; that kind of measure is saved for things like war crimes.

[Moonraker]

Wait... what?

You're asking if Aragorn should have (...ahem...) arrested his longtime friend of about 60 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragorn#History) because they disagreed about a route?

I was in the army, and I never thought of arresting someone I knew because they had a route or strategy different than mine; that kind of measure is saved for things like war crimes.

Did you read all the previous posts before posting the above? Aragorn had a duty to protect the Ring, with his future as King of Gondor at stake. Friendships were to be swept to one side, and the most important decision made as to how the Ring may be protected.

Granted, Aragorn was not Boromir, who almost certainly would have caused mutiny within the Company much earlier if he were held in the same regard as Aragorn. But Aragorn needed to see things in context of completing the quest, and saving Middle Earth, and if that mean't rejecting the road into Moria, then so be it. Had he then asked the Company to vote for who they would have followed, most likely it would have been Aragorn, not Gandalf, unless Gandalf repented.

In the end, Aragorn & Boromir backed down and went with the plan of going through Moria after the wolves made an appearance. That really saved Gandalf from being cast aside as being respected leader of the Company. Gandalf, being a powerful Maiar, may have had full confidence in confronting the horrors of Moria, but none of the others (save Gimli) did and would have not gone in but for the wolves.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Beregorn
But were the other, watched ways, really safer?

Seems like perhaps the safest, fastest route would be to quickly go back from
Rivendell to the Grey Havens (while the nazgul are in disarray and horseless).
Then take a ship (hugging the coast---it's a medieval world traveling wise, so
traveling by sea near the coast tends to be the fastest and safest way to travel.
Go past the Isen (no further because of the threat from Corsairs) and then either travel across south Rohan (hugging the White Mountains) or cross Andrast and thru south Gondor. Cross the Anduin and then perhaps go around south Mordor or through another pass. Biggest immediate problems are crossing the Great River and dealing with Rohan or Gondor authorities---but they'd have Gandalf, Aragorn, and Boromir.

[Andsigil]

Did you read all the previous posts before posting the above? Aragorn had a duty to protect the Ring, with his future as King of Gondor at stake. Friendships were to be swept to one side, and the most important decision made as to how the Ring may be protected.

Granted, Aragorn was not Boromir, who almost certainly would have caused mutiny within the Company much earlier if he were held in the same regard as Aragorn. But Aragorn needed to see things in context of completing the quest, and saving Middle Earth, and if that mean't rejecting the road into Moria, then so be it. Had he then asked the Company to vote for who they would have followed, most likely it would have been Aragorn, not Gandalf, unless Gandalf repented.

In the end, Aragorn & Boromir backed down and went with the plan of going through Moria after the wolves made an appearance. That really saved Gandalf from being cast aside as being respected leader of the Company. Gandalf, being a powerful Maiar, may have had full confidence in confronting the horrors of Moria, but none of the others (save Gimli) did and would have not gone in but for the wolves.

You can attempt to explain this away as much as you want, but the fact remains that you began this thread by jumping (pole vaulting!) to the option of arrest (out in the wilderness, with no means of enforcement, no less)- as if that were the only option.
"Let's see... which way can we go?"
"Well, south toward Isengard, or through Moria. I say Moria."
"You're under arrest. Turn around and put your hands behind your back. Uh... Boromir- you and Legolas tie him up."

On a side note, as I replied to this thread again, I realized that the forum may not have a sufficient variety of emoticons to further reflect a writer's feelings.

[Moonraker]

Seems like perhaps the safest, fastest route would be to quickly go back from
Rivendell to the Grey Havens (while the nazgul are in disarray and horseless).
Then take a ship (hugging the coast---it's a medieval world traveling wise, so
traveling by sea near the coast tends to be the fastest and safest way to travel.
Go past the Isen (no further because of the threat from Corsairs) and then either travel across south Rohan (hugging the White Mountains) or cross Andrast and thru south Gondor. Cross the Anduin and then perhaps go around south Mordor or through another pass. Biggest immediate problems are crossing the Great River and dealing with Rohan or Gondor authorities---but they'd have Gandalf, Aragorn, and Boromir.


Whichever road they took, was there any realistic possibility of this being kept hidden from Sauron & Saruman? Both would have had spies covering all routes, and both would have assumed Gandalf was taking the Ring to Minas Tirith. They may as well have been escorted by a large army to Lorien if there was no hope of secrecy. The events in Moria would have certainly rang alarm bells in the Dark Tower as to the whereabouts of the Ring pretty quick.

You can attempt to explain this away as much as you want, but the fact remains that you began this thread by jumping (pole vaulting!) to the option of arrest (out in the wilderness, with no means of enforcement, no less)- as if that were the only option.

I have dealt with this in other posts earlier, so I do not wish to repeat myself.

[Andsigil]

I have dealt with this in other posts earlier, so I do not wish to repeat myself.

"Dealing with" it in your original post would have been much better. As carpenters say: measure twice and cut once.

[Moonraker]

No one knew that there was a Balrog in Moria, however. They knew that there was something but not what it was.


Moreover, how could Gandalf have simply "called on the help of the Eagles"? The only reason Gwaihir came to Isengard was because Radagast sent him. Later, around the time of the Council of Elrond, Radagast had disappeared. So I don't see how the Eagles were an option out in the wilderness. They appeared at other times when they were sent by someone else who had access to them.

As was established by Elrond, no one was under any obligation to do anything except Frodo himself, so I don't see how trying to force the issue by coercing Gandalf would have achieved anything. Wouldn't Aragorn "arresting" Gandalf (as implausible as the notion is in itself) have completely contradicted the fact that in the end it was Frodo who really had the final say in what happened?

Only at Rivendell could word have been sent to get the Eagles on board further down the road, and I doubt Gwaihir would have refused to help Gandalf, having saved him twice before.

Was Frodo really in charge of the fate of the Ring? He was only the Ring bearer, not the leader of the Company. Also Elrond said other members of the Company could handle the Ring, if in great need. I don't recall Gandalf saying, ''Let the Ring bearer decide'', as in the movies?

[Belegorn]

So in this context, Gandalf would not have wished an encounter with a deadlier Maiar such as the Balrog of Morgoth than Saruman or the Witch King.

They did not know of a Balrog being in Moria. Both Aragorn and Gandalf had passed through Moria without encountering the Balrog before.

Yet it will not be the first time that I have been to Moria. I sought there long for Thráin son of Thrór after he was lost.

<...>

I too once passed the Dimrill Gate, but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.

I do not think in any case that Aragorn's beef is to not pass through Moria to avoid facing the Balrog. He did not know what was there, nor do I expect he thought such a being was living in the halls of Moria.

You say that, "the most important decision made as to how the Ring may be protected." Yet Aragorn seems to be placing his concern for Gandalf over the Ring in this instance when it concerned a possible route through Moria.

It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf.

Gandalf told the Company "I would not lead you into Moria if there were no hope of coming out again." [p. 354] This was in the context of Boromir having compared Moria to a stronghold of Sauron. Gandalf had no inkling so far as I know that it was a stronghold of the Balrog, nor did anyone else. Take note of his speculations:

But most of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains were scattered or destroyed in the Battle of Five Armies. The Eagles report that Orcs are gathering again from afar; but there is a hope that Moria is still free.

There is even a chance that Dwarves are there, and that in some deep hall of his fathers, Balin son of Fundin may be found.

What he thought was possible was that Moria could be free from a plague of Orcs based on certain reports he was given and that Dwarves could be there. Gandalf wanted to go under the Mountains to cover their tracks and he thought it would be the least expected route the Enemy would consider them taking.

I doubt Gwaihir would have refused to help Gandalf, having saved him twice before

Help indeed, but recall the conversation between Gandalf and Gwaihir when the former had need of a ride after having been saved from Orthanc.

'How far can you bear me?"

"Many leagues," said he, "but not to the ends of the earth. I was sent to bear tidings not burdens."

"Then I must have a steed on land<...> for I have never had such a need of haste before."

"Then I will bear you to Edoras<...>for that is not very far off."

In the end, Frodo's journey would lead to Mordor anyway, the stronghold of Sauron, but you would have Gandalf arrested for deciding to lead them through Moria. "I would not lead you into Moria if there were no hope of coming out again." [p. 354] said Gandalf. There were concerns about Moria, but it would be a means to disappear from off the grid.

Aragorn had a duty to protect the Ring

The job was ultimately Frodo's. The others were in the Company until they came to their respective destinations, the two Dúnedain to Gondor for instance. Elrond said "I will choose you companions to go with you , as far as they will or fortune allows <...> They are willing to go at least to the passes of the Mountains, and maybe beyond." [FotR, ch. 3, p. 330] Aragorn was going to help aid in the wars of Gondor.

They may as well have been escorted by a large army to Lorien if there was no hope of secrecy.

Elrond claimed "your hope is in speed and secrecy." [p. 330] which may also account for Gandalf's choice to take the road of Moria, as it cut through the mountains and the Enemy would hardly be expecting it.

I thought from the beginning, when I first considered this journey, that we should try it. ~ Gandalf

Speed and secrecy was the way to go. No protracted journey, loud and blustering, "The Company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle." [Ch. 3, p. 334]

Was Frodo really in charge of the fate of the Ring? He was only the Ring bearer, not the leader of the Company.

I think Elrond's final charge to Frodo may be of some help.

The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid; neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need. The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will.

Gandalf, being a powerful Maiar, may have had full confidence in confronting the horrors of Moria, but none of the others (save Gimli) did and would have not gone in but for the wolves.

Do you remember that chapter in The Hobbit titled, Out of the Frying-pan into the Fire? This seems like what you are suggesting they decided to do. Flee Wolves to face the Balrog and his horde of Orcs in Moria.

"Wolves or Balrog? I'd rather take my chances with that Balrog. To Moria!" :)

I seem to imagine him saying something like

He did say, "I can foresee very little of your road; and how your task is to be achieved I do not know." [Ch. 3, p. 330]

No one knew that there was a Balrog in Moria, however. They knew that there was something but not what it was.

Agreed. Gandalf did not even know it was a Balrog when they engaged each other on opposite sides of a door in Moria! [pp. 387-388]

[Legolas]

An absurd idea; moving this to N&N. Not sure anyone should get too worked up about this.

Please keep in mind:
Accept the fact that others have different opinions. Read them and think about them – you just might learn something! If you don’t agree, just state your own opinion; you don’t have to correct everyone else’s or argue until they agree with you.

[Moonraker]

An absurd idea; moving this to N&N. Not sure anyone should get too worked up about this.

Please keep in mind:

If Aragorn was of the same temperament and mind set as Boromir, he would have pushed for mutiny and the arrest of Gandalf if the latter did not change his mind on taking the Company through Moria. It is the Wolves who really saved the day for Gandalf generally speaking. Thankfully, Aragorn was not so easily corrupted by the Ring, and was much stronger mentally than Bormomir to be able to resist the Ring.

[Inziladun]

Thankfully, Aragorn was not so easily corrupted by the Ring, and was much stronger mentally than Bormomir to be able to resist the Ring.

Aragorn's trust of Gandalf had nothing to do with the Ring. He had simply been a friend of Gandalf for a long time, and had also no doubt been instructed by Elrond and the Rivendell elves of Gandalf's importance to the effort against Sauron.

[Moonraker]

Aragorn's trust of Gandalf had nothing to do with the Ring. He had simply been a friend of Gandalf for a long time, and had also no doubt been instructed by Elrond and the Rivendell elves of Gandalf's importance to the effort against Sauron.

Were Gandalf and Boromir not on good terms previously? No real fondness, but they certainly were on the same side. Yet his desire for the Ring made friendship second nature.

[Belegorn]

If Aragorn was of the same temperament and mind set as Boromir, he would have pushed for mutiny and the arrest of Gandalf if the latter did not change his mind on taking the Company through Moria. It is the Wolves who really saved the day for Gandalf generally speaking. Thankfully, Aragorn was not so easily corrupted by the Ring, and was much stronger mentally than Bormomir to be able to resist the Ring.

I'm not so sure of that. It seems to me that Boromir had accepted Aragorn as a Captain/leader. In like manner did Aragorn do so with Gandalf. I do not think he would think of going against Gandalf like that. He and Boromir were of the same mind, but remember what Aragorn had said.

You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame.

To me he was saying, "yea Moria may be dangerous and I have a foreboding of the place, but I myself almost got us all killed anyways so I can't protest too much accept to worry about you Gandalf."

I'm not sure an arrest would be the right word for what they would do had Aragorn decided to punish Gandalf. He obviously had no authority in that land anyway even if Arnor were still at its peak.

At its greatest Arnor included all Eriador, except the regions beyond the Lune, and the lands east of Greyflood and Loudwater, in which lay Rivendell and Hollin.

The Lune was the western borders where the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains and the Elves in Lindon lived. And east of the Loudwater includes a big chunk of land between that river and the mountains which includes Hollin where they were traveling before they went to Moria, and Moria itself. So even High King Aragorn had no real authority in that land. I think they could try to bind him if they so wanted but recall when Gandalf met them in Fangorn.

He lifted up his staff and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air; it vanished in a flash of flame.

<...>

Indeed my friends, none of you has any weapon that could hurt me.

I'm not sure that the Ring came into play here, influence-wise on the others from itself that is, in the choice to head to Moria. Gandalf certainly did not want to take the Ring anywhere near Saruman, and Moria he felt would not only mask their goings but perhaps they would run into friendlier folk.

Did the wolves make a vote unnecessary? I think so. I do think that Frodo would probably have taken Gandalf's lead anyways as he said he trusted in Gandalf's judgment. Even Aragorn, though against it, would have gone.

I will follow your lead now - if this last warning does not move you.

[Belegorn]

Were Gandalf and Boromir not on good terms previously? No real fondness, but they certainly were on the same side. Yet his desire for the Ring made friendship second nature.

I don't recall there being any ill-will between them. I got the impression, at least if I were in the Company's shoes, that Boromir would be one of those guys who said things that could rub you the wrong way but in no way meant to demean one. Boromir was one of most anybody who would look to use the Ring to do good but in the end it would turn to evil. He saw the Ring as a means to help Gondor, a weapon to use against the enemy. I do not think his intentions were bad. Just as it appears was the case with Saruman. Even though he tried to take the Ring by force in the end he was still on the side of the free people. I think it just ate at him that Frodo taking the Ring to Mordor rather than using it to destroy Sauron was like handing him a gift. I could see how he would have misgivings about Frodo taking the Enemy's weapon back to the Enemy to destroy it.

[Moonraker]

Why didn't Gandalf not consider taking the Ring through Mirkwood, and for a time come under the hospitality of the Wood Elves?

[Inziladun]

Why didn't Gandalf not consider taking the Ring through Mirkwood, and for a time come under the hospitality of the Wood Elves?

For one thing, Dol Guldur was a location of Sauron's minions. Not to mention the fact that Thranduil's halls were quite a bit out of the way, and time was rather pressing.

[Moonraker]

For one thing, Dol Guldur was a location of Sauron's minions. Not to mention the fact that Thranduil's halls were quite a bit out of the way, and time was rather pressing.

Legolas never once mentioned going that way, which is a little surprising. He would have known where his kindred were hidden as ambushers in Mirkwood, so they may well have received an escort for much of the journey once they went in. Though the Eye of Sauron may well have been fixed on and near to Dol Guldur.

[Belegorn]

Why didn't Gandalf not consider taking the Ring through Mirkwood, and for a time come under the hospitality of the Wood Elves?

Sauron has a fortress there. Besides, Legolas told the Council that Mirkwood was not safe and he also mentions Dol Guldur.

Dark things that were driven out in the year of the Dragon's fall have returned in greater numbers, and Mirkwood is again an evil place, save where our realm is maintained.

<...>

We failed to recapture Gollum <...> we were drawing nigh to Dol Goldur, and that is still a very evil place; we do not go that way.

It was also said how the men of Dale were also being harassed, "Already war is gathering on his [King Brand's] eastern borders." [FotR, bk. 2, ch. 2] So really that area was not a safe place to bring the Ring. Also the Elves of Thranduil's realms were attacked when the people of Dol Goldur learned of the captivity of Gollum there. On March 15th in Mirkwood several attacks occur.

Battle under the trees in Mirkwood; Thranduil repels the forces of Dol Guldur. Second assult on Lórien.

[Belegorn]

Legolas never once mentioned going that way, which is a little surprising. He would have known where his kindred were hidden as ambushers in Mirkwood, so they may well have received an escort for much of the journey once they went in. Though the Eye of Sauron may well have been fixed on and near to Dol Guldur.

As Inziladun mentioned Thranduil's realm was far from the direction they would need to be going. It was by the Grey Mountains in the north of Mirkwood. Sauron was looking for Hobbits. I do not think had his scouts seen them in an escort of Elves if that would have been the best thing for the Company.

[Faramir Jones]

The leadership of Gandalf was questioned by the Company when he decided to choose the dark and dangerous path into Moria. At this point, should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest and taken over the leadership of the Company to help protect the Ring?

This question of 'arrest', Moonraker, ignores the nature of the Fellowship of the Ring as a group. From what was clear from Elrond in Rivendell, pointed out by Belegorn, the only person in the group on whom any formal obligation was laid was Frodo. For the others, no such obligation was laid on them in terms of any staying or going. The moral obligations on each was another matter, Gimli pointing out that 'Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens'. While Gandalf was accepted as leader, with Aragorn as his lieutenant, who would (and did) take over if anything happened to the former, neither of the two were appointed by Elrond, or elected by the Fellowship themselves.

Such a lack of formality would mean, in my opinion, that if the others of the Fellowship (including Frodo) rejected Gandalf's plan to go to Moria, all that would be needed would be to tell the latter that they didn't agree, and that if he insisted, they would accept Aragorn as the new leader. In this case, 'arrest' would not come into it. As long as Gandalf didn't interfere with the Fellowship, they would leave him alone, letting him decide if he wanted to leave or stay with them.

[Moonraker]

This question of 'arrest', Moonraker, ignores the nature of the Fellowship of the Ring as a group. From what was clear from Elrond in Rivendell, pointed out by Belegorn, the only person in the group on whom any formal obligation was laid was Frodo. For the others, no such obligation was laid on them in terms of any staying or going. The moral obligations on each was another matter, Gimli pointing out that 'Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens'. While Gandalf was accepted as leader, with Aragorn as his lieutenant, who would (and did) take over if anything happened to the former, neither of the two were appointed by Elrond, or elected by the Fellowship themselves.

Such a lack of formality would mean, in my opinion, that if the others of the Fellowship (including Frodo) rejected Gandalf's plan to go to Moria, all that would be needed would be to tell the latter that they didn't agree, and that if he insisted, they would accept Aragorn as the new leader. In this case, 'arrest' would not come into it. As long as Gandalf didn't interfere with the Fellowship, they would leave him alone, letting him decide if he wanted to leave or stay with them.

After what Boromir did to try and wrestle the Ring off Frodo by force, it is conceivable that any member of the Company who was no longer working in the interest of the quest would be cast aside, and possibly even held captive should the opportunity arise, with the agreement of a suitor, such as in Lorien. Gandalf had many friends in Middle Earth in high places, as did Aragorn. But no so much Boromir, and the evils he committed he later tried to atone for when trying to rescue Merry and Pippin. But by the letter of the law, he should have been arrested further down the line in Rohan if he had survived the orc attack,

[Inziladun]

But by the letter of the law, he should have been arrested further down the line in Rohan if he had survived the orc attack,

You're overlooking the fact that there was no law. In kingdoms such as Gondor and Rohan, laws were in effect to address various circumstances.
All that governed the Fellowship though were individual oaths and loyalties. It was an organization outside any official government (which is probably why it ultimately was successful ;)).

[Moonraker]

You're overlooking the fact that there was no law. In kingdoms such as Gondor and Rohan, laws were in effect to address various circumstances.
All that governed the Fellowship though were individual oaths and loyalties. It was an organization outside any official government (which is probably why it ultimately was successful ;)).

Figure of speech is the name of the game here. I am not saying Middle Earth has lawyers and a robust legal system.

[Belegorn]

But no so much Boromir, and the evils he committed he later tried to atone for when trying to rescue Merry and Pippin. But by the letter of the law, he should have been arrested further down the line in Rohan if he had survived the orc attack,

Why would he be arrested in Rohan? He tried to attack Frodo but he never laid a finger on him. Arrest for attempted assault? He is a lord of Gondor, the heir to the Stewardship. The Stewards themselves were more noble than any other kings of men. You've got Gandalf and Boromir positioned for possible arrests, a Maia who was the prime mover of the defense against Sauron and a Lord of Gondor who was huge in the wars in the East. It appears that Boromir was looked kindly upon in Rohan, at least according to the account of Éomer.

That was a worthy man! All spoke his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders;

As an aside, would you have Isildur arrested as well since he did not destroy the Ring? Have Elrond and Celeborn jail him somewhere?

[Moonraker]

Why would he be arrested in Rohan? He tried to attack Frodo but he never laid a finger on him. Arrest for attempted assault? He is a lord of Gondor, the heir to the Stewardship. The Stewards themselves were more noble than any other kings of men. You've got Gandalf and Boromir positioned for possible arrests, a Maia who was the prime mover of the defense against Sauron and a Lord of Gondor who was huge in the wars in the East. It appears that Boromir was looked kindly upon in Rohan, at least according to the account of Éomer.



As an aside, would you have Isildur arrested as well since he did not destroy the Ring? Have Elrond and Celeborn jail him somewhere?

Gandalf could have been in line for arrest in the event of stirring mutiny and trying to send the Ring into the lion's den through Moria against the will of the Company. But the wolves attacking their camp changed things, and all the company backed down and agreed to enter Moria.

Boromir was another matter, he tried to steal the Ring from Frodo, and theft of this magnitude does carry the penalty of jail in a civilised world.

[Alfirin]

Boromir was another matter, he tried to steal the Ring from Frodo, and theft of this magnitude does carry the penalty of jail in a civilised world.

Again, under whose laws? The attempt is made in an area without any local
people so not them.

Tecnically, Parth Galen is part of Gondor's Territory, and as such under Gondors law. And at the time of the attack, the ultimate arbiter of that law is Denethor, NOT Aragorn.If any question of crime arose, it would have to be Denethor, not Aragorn who would have to hear the case and pass judgement. Aragorn isn't king yet. Even once he became king, even if he did decide it was worth trying (which he probably wouldn't) he can't; few, if any, civilized legal systems allow for punishment for retroactive crimes (even if something is declared illegal now, you can't punish someone for doing it in the past, before it was illegal.) I will reiterate what the others have said, any decision by the rest of the fellowship to let Gandalf, Aragorn or anyone else be the leader, and to abide by thier decisions, was purely VOLUNTARY. Aragorn had NO legal authority to enforce any decision he made as law, heir to the throne or not.
Under the law as Denethor would interpret it, Boromir trying to take the ring would not have probably been considered a crime. Quite the opposite in fact, Denethor makes it pretty clear that in his book, NOT trying to take the ring and taking it back to Minas Tirith would have been the criminal act. Faramir makes it pretty clear in his words to Frodo in Ithilien that, by deciding to let Frodo and Co. go on thier way as opposed to taking them all back to Minas Tirith to see what Denthor thinks, he is techically comitting treason, and he damn well knows it.
As for trying to have him arrested in Rohan, how, the crime was not on Rohan soil, nor are any of the parties involved citizens of Rohan. Rohan literally would have no jurisdiction. And even if it did, it would not be much of a case. Remember the crime is only of great magnitude if you KNOW what the ring is, which no one in Rohan would. Short of someone in the party letting Theoden or Eomer in on the secret would would be dumb, especially Theoden (since, at that point Theoden would still be under Grima's ministrations so anything Theoden knew Grima would know and pass on to Saruman) it's just attemped theft of one gold ring. That's a minor crime at best, and given how well Boromir is thought of in Rohan, likely to be pardoned almost without thought.
To be honest, at this point, I think you are trying to cast Aragorn as some sort of absolute tyrant, doing whatever he thinks is best without council, and arresting or punishing anyone who disagrees with him. If he really WAS that kind of a person, there is no way he would have been allowed to join the Fellowship; it would be like letting Sauron himself join! From the beginning we are meant to see Aragon as a "good" and "wise" king to be, and a good and wise ruler does NOT just do whatever he wants. He may be the ultimate arbiter of the law, but he is NOT above it. To borrow a line from Tolkien's Friend C.S. Lewis's work "The King is under the law, for it's the law that makes him a king."

[Belegorn]

Boromir was another matter, he tried to steal the Ring from Frodo, and theft of this magnitude does carry the penalty of jail in a civilised world.

Yes, but even if this is so, what has this to do with Rohan?

[Moonraker]

Yes, but even if this is so, what has this to do with Rohan?

Rohan could have held Boromir in custody with the agreement of Theoden once the crime was explained. But that was never going to happen, as the Ring was mean't to be kept secret from Rohan, and the Company would not have risked going to Edoras with Isengard marshalling an army close by. Also, Denethor would have pleaded with Rohan to have Bormomir pardoned and released at once.

[Belegorn]

They were not in Rohan at that point and were headed East, not back west to look for kidnapped Hobbits. If any Lord had authority there it would have been Boromir's father.

[Moonraker]

Gandalf was not only answerable to Aragorn, but also to the Council. How could he possibly justify to the Council in going into Moria, even with wolves tracking the Company? Let's face it, wolves are hardly stiff opposition for a Company which boasts a Maiar and the heir of Isildur? Had it been a strong company of Orcs following them, as spotted by the keen eyes of Legolas, then that may have altered things, but wolves? I don't quite see it.

[Belegorn]

It appears that he and Aragorn had been arguing this point for a while, at least before they even reached Caradhras. It also seems that it was an option, at least so far as Aragorn was concerned, a last option.

not until it is plain that there is no other way.

As far as the wolves of which you seem to be dismissive it seems that the Company at least would disagree with your assertion.

The wolf that one hears is worse than the orc that one fears.

[Mithalwen]

Gandalf was not only answerable to Aragorn, but also to the Council. How could he possibly justify to the Council in going into Moria, even with wolves tracking the Company? Let's face it, wolves are hardly stiff opposition for a Company which boasts a Maiar and the heir of Isildur? Had it been a strong company of Orcs following them, as spotted by the keen eyes of Legolas, then that may have altered things, but wolves? I don't quite see it.

Even accepting the first premise, which I don't - it was a fellowship not a military or operation and it was made explicit that only on the Ringbearer was any charge laid so all this talk of arresting and charging is frankly ludicrous. Even if Aragorn had the jurisdiction and moral, authority, and he didn't, he almost certainly have the physical power. LOTR isn't Crimson Tide - the book also makes clear that they were no ordinary wolves. The bodies disappeared remember.

[Moonraker]

It appears that he and Aragorn had been arguing this point for a while, at least before they even reached Caradhras. It also seems that it was an option, at least so far as Aragorn was concerned, a last option.



As far as the wolves of which you seem to be dismissive it seems that the Company at least would disagree with your assertion.

The orc one fears was with reference to them being present in Moria, possibly. I was referring to orcs hunting the Company, having been spotted by Legolas as being only a few miles behind and tracking them. Wolves presented no more than an annoying choir like need for Gandalf to unwillingly use his Maiar powers to quench the fire.

[Leaf]

They also represented certainty that the fellowship has been tracked by the servants of Sauron. Hence the attempt to go through the mines to escape their enemies eyes for a while.

[Moonraker]

They also represented certainty that the fellowship has been tracked by the servants of Sauron. Hence the attempt to go through the mines to escape their enemies eyes for a while.

I don't believe the wolves tracked the Company from Mordor. they stumbled on them by luck, whilst at the same time following orders to snuff out lands that the Company may pass.

[Zigûr]

I don't believe the wolves tracked the Company from Mordor. they stumbled on them by luck, whilst at the same time following orders to snuff out lands that the Company may pass.
Leaf said "tracked by Sauron" not "tracked from Mordor." Hardly the same thing.

It seems to me that Moria was as good a place as any to drop off the radar for a while. Remember that no one knew what Durin's Bane actually was, so the idea of entering its territory was not an assurance of anything.

[Moonraker]

Leaf said "tracked by Sauron" not "tracked from Mordor." Hardly the same thing.

It seems to me that Moria was as good a place as any to drop off the radar for a while. Remember that no one knew what Durin's Bane actually was, so the idea of entering its territory was not an assurance of anything.

Moria was a venture into the unknown, and with no news on Balin, even the dwarves were afraid of what became of his rule in Moria. The wolves may have been sent from Mordor, or they may have not. But the tracking and orders were directed from Mordor.

[Leaf]

I don't believe the wolves tracked the Company from Mordor. Well, nobody suggested that?!

they stumbled on them by luck, whilst at the same time following orders to snuff out lands that the Company may pass.

Can you back this assumption up with textual evidence? It´s highly unlikely that those wolves "stumbled on them by luck". Hollin was under the observation of Sauron´s servants and there are several instances in the text that can confirm this. We have the lack of birds and other small animals which is noted by Aragorn. He takes this as a bad sign: But I have a sense of watchfulness, and of fear, that I have never had here before. Then there are the flocks of Crebain scouting over Hollin and Aragorn concludes: Hollin is no longer wholesome for us: it is being watched.
And we have a strange shadow which passes over the stars. It was felt by Frodo and Gandalf, rather than seen. This was the earliest encouter with a Nazgul on a fellbeast!

[Moonraker]

Well, nobody suggested that?!



Can you back this assumption up with textual evidence? It´s highly unlikely that those wolves "stumbled on them by luck". Hollin was under the observation of Sauron´s servants and there are several instances in the text that can confirm this. We have the lack of birds and other small animals which is noted by Aragorn. He takes this as a bad sign: Then there are the flocks of Crebain scouting over Hollin and Aragorn concludes:
And we have a strange shadow which passes over the stars. It was felt by Frodo and Gandalf, rather than seen. This was the earliest encouter with a Nazgul on a fellbeast!

If you can prove to me that the wolves were fully aware of the whereabouts of the Company beforehand? If they were, then Mordor would have sent them and a force ten fold stronger to get the Ring back. The crows spotted them and reported this back into Sauron? Not conclusive. The more likely scenario is that the wolves were only one of a number of enemies sent by Mordor to scour the various lands, with these wolves being one of the few groups to have got lucky in being given the right direction to scour. Gandalf said all lands were being watched by the enemy, so Sauron's minions were scattered in different lands and lying in hope that the Company passed their way.

[Leaf]

If you can prove to me that the wolves were fully aware of the whereabouts of the Company beforehand? If they were, then Mordor would have sent them and a force ten fold stronger to get the Ring back. The crows spotted them and reported this back into Sauron? Not conclusive. The more likely scenario is that the wolves were only one of a number of enemies sent by Mordor to scour the various lands, with these wolves being one of the few groups to have got lucky in being given the right direction to scour. Gandalf said all lands were being watched by the enemy, so Sauron's minions were scattered in different lands and lying in hope that the Company passed their way.

Well, that wasn't my point. I was trying to explain that the fellowship had good reasons to assume that they are no longer 'undercover'. They could not know if the wolves are just a scattered group or if more forces are on their way to hunt them down. So it's only reasonably to leave the open land.

[Belegorn]

The orc one fears was with reference to them being present in Moria, possibly. I was referring to orcs hunting the Company, having been spotted by Legolas as being only a few miles behind and tracking them. Wolves presented no more than an annoying choir like need for Gandalf to unwillingly use his Maiar powers to quench the fire.

I doubt that the wolves have been "presented no more than an annoying choir" as Gandalf said of them, "who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his trail?" These are wolves, rather than orcs, spotting/hunting the Company and it does not seem to me that Gandalf regards them as "an annoying choir". Not to mention the dual possibility that, "where the warg howls, there also the orc prowls." So instead of your scenario with "orcs hunting the Company" there in Hollin, it was rather wargs and Gandalf inquired how could any of them now wish to continue on the same course with wargs on their trail. According to you Gandalf could have easily dealt with them so his reluctance would be unnecessary. But if we are to believe the story rather than what one may project into the story Gandalf had no inclination to continue on the same path with wargs chasing them.

[Belegorn]

Moria was a venture into the unknown,

Why would Aragorn even contemplate arresting Gandalf when it appears that going through Mordor was not out of their equations anyway?

not until it is plain that there is no other way.

They did not know who or what was there, be it friend or foe. The impression you give is that they should never go there, and that Gandalf would have been forbidden to venture there by the Council, as if they knew they would encounter a Balrog.

[Moonraker]

I doubt that the wolves have been "presented no more than an annoying choir" as Gandalf said of them, "who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his trail?" These are wolves, rather than orcs, spotting/hunting the Company and it does not seem to me that Gandalf regards them as "an annoying choir". Not to mention the dual possibility that, "where the warg howls, there also the orc prowls." So instead of your scenario with "orcs hunting the Company" there in Hollin, it was rather wargs and Gandalf inquired how could any of them now wish to continue on the same course with wargs on their trail. According to you Gandalf could have easily dealt with them so his reluctance would be unnecessary. But if we are to believe the story rather than what one may project into the story Gandalf had no inclination to continue on the same path with wargs chasing them.

But in reality, when Gandalf does call on his Maiar powers, willingly or not, do wolves stand a chance with him? If you then add orcs to the equation alongside wolves (as in the Hobbit), then that is another question. In the Hobbit, Tolkein suggests Gandalf would have died after leaping off his pine tree and into the crowd of orcs and their spears.

Why would Aragorn even contemplate arresting Gandalf when it appears that going through Mordor was not out of their equations anyway?

They did not know who or what was there, be it friend or foe. The impression you give is that they should never go there, and that Gandalf would have been forbidden to venture there by the Council, as if they knew they would encounter a Balrog.

Aragorn could not have arrested Gandalf unless he had the soldiers at hand there and then ready to do so. But at a later date he may well have brought the subject up formally in Gondor, as he did with the Gondor guard who broke the law on leaving his post to save Faramir, but he was pardoned. Also, whilst there was fierce disagreement between the Company on going to Moria, it fell just short of mutiny, thanks to the appearance of wolves. It was Boromir who risked stirring mutiny above all.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Basically one important point regarding this whole thing -

- the main point of the quest with the Ring was to destroy Sauron not by power; it was a manifestation of rejecting any form of control. Starting to arrest people or exercising any form of control would be totally against the spirit of the whole "operation" and what the Free People stood for, or what they decided they were standing for.

So from that also follows, if we go down the line of talking about arrest, Aragorn should have first arrested Elrond and co. for deciding on such a ridiculous plan and putting the Ring into unnecessary risk by sending it to Mordor in the first place. Arguments had been put forward on the Council, making it clear that it was an incredibly risky option, and if there ever was a time for arresting someone, it might just as well been there. If Aragorn had been up to claiming his kingly power and arresting people for treason or endangering the fate of Middle-Earth, he would have probably agreed with Saruman the same way Boromir did at the Council: the best course is to claim the Ring, or at least keep it hidden. The madmen who wanted to run with it right into the heart of Sauron's realm should be arrested, in terms of public safety, to prevent them from doing anything crazy that could have cost the lives of thousands.

[Mithalwen]

What is more, surely Elrond and Cirdan should have arrested Isildur and forced him to destroy the ring. To reference another thread, this is a n aspect where understanding of Tolkien's Catholicism may be useful. It is about free will and it's proper exercise, not imposing and enforcing laws and hierachy.

[Morthoron]

The leadership of Gandalf was questioned by the Company when he decided to choose the dark and dangerous path into Moria. At this point, should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest and taken over the leadership of the Company to help protect the Ring?

No, Aragorn neither had the authority nor the inclination to arrest Gandalf. Aragorn, alone of the Fellowship, was quite aware of where the Istari were from and what Gandalf's mission was.

Again, I will repeat, for absurdity's sake, Aragorn neither had the authority nor the inclination to arrest Gandalf. To say otherwise is merely circumlocutious arguing to no point whatever.

Aragorn would not arrest him in a box
He would not arrest him with a fox
He would not arrest him here or there
He would not arrest him anywhere

He would not arrest him with some troops
He would not arrest him in a chicken coop
He would not arrest him in Moria dire
He would not arrest him in the Shire

He would not arrest him as the king
He would not arrest him for anything
Aragorn would not arrest Gandalf because
Of who and what and where he was.

[Belegorn]

But in reality, when Gandalf does call on his Maiar powers, willingly or not, do wolves stand a chance with him? If you then add orcs to the equation alongside wolves (as in the Hobbit), then that is another question.

All 14 of them were already trapped before the orcs got there. So Gandalf with 12 Dwarves and a Hobbit were already out of the frying pan and into the fire before the orcs got there. You ask if the wolves stand a chance against Gandalf, the wolves had Gandalf trapped when orcs were not there, and Gandalf was not alone, he had 13 companions with him. So yes, I do think the wolves stood a chance against him.

[Moonraker]

Basically one important point regarding this whole thing -

- the main point of the quest with the Ring was to destroy Sauron not by power; it was a manifestation of rejecting any form of control. Starting to arrest people or exercising any form of control would be totally against the spirit of the whole "operation" and what the Free People stood for, or what they decided they were standing for.

So from that also follows, if we go down the line of talking about arrest, Aragorn should have first arrested Elrond and co. for deciding on such a ridiculous plan and putting the Ring into unnecessary risk by sending it to Mordor in the first place. Arguments had been put forward on the Council, making it clear that it was an incredibly risky option, and if there ever was a time for arresting someone, it might just as well been there. If Aragorn had been up to claiming his kingly power and arresting people for treason or endangering the fate of Middle-Earth, he would have probably agreed with Saruman the same way Boromir did at the Council: the best course is to claim the Ring, or at least keep it hidden. The madmen who wanted to run with it right into the heart of Sauron's realm should be arrested, in terms of public safety, to prevent them from doing anything crazy that could have cost the lives of thousands.

Elrond did not make the decision alone to send the Ring to Mordor, that was also the decision made by Aragorn and Gandalf, and in principle even Boromir agreed (though in his mind he obviously had reservations). An arrest could only be even considered if somebody within the company committed what could widely be agreed as mutiny or treason, and not just because Denethor only wanted the Ring hidden in Minas Tirith. Bormomir ultimately did commit treason to the cause of the quest, and Saruman before him. Gandalf was pushing the patience of Aragorn and Bormomir to the limits in suggesting that Moria was the route they should take. Gandalf even wanted to take this route from the off, which Aragorn overruled.

What is more, surely Elrond and Cirdan should have arrested Isildur and forced him to destroy the ring. To reference another thread, this is a n aspect where understanding of Tolkien's Catholicism may be useful. It is about free will and it's proper exercise, not imposing and enforcing laws and hierachy.

Isildur could indeed have been put on trial for not getting the job done of destroying the Ring. But having the willpower in sending the Ring into the fire, as everyone knows, is easier said than done. He would have been pardoned.

All 14 of them were already trapped before the orcs got there. So Gandalf with 12 Dwarves and a Hobbit were already out of the frying pan and into the fire before the orcs got there. You ask if the wolves stand a chance against Gandalf, the wolves had Gandalf trapped when orcs were not there, and Gandalf was not alone, he had 13 companions with him. So yes, I do think the wolves stood a chance against him.

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

[Inziladun]

Gandalf was pushing the patience of Aragorn and Bormomir to the limits in suggesting that Moria was the route they should take. Gandalf even wanted to take this route from the off.

But the reluctance of Aragorn and Boromir was in neither case a reflection of a lack of confidence in Gandalf. Boromir simply knew Moria as a name of ill repute, and preferred a route that was more known to him and would get him to Gondor faster.

Aragorn's fear was for Gandalf, not the Quest in general.

'I will follow your lead now--if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!' FOTR A Journey In the Dark

There was no thought that Moria would put the Ring in any particular danger, no more than it was already. So Gandalf had done absolutely nothing that would warrant "arrest", or even choosing a new leader.

[Moonraker]

But the reluctance of Aragorn and Boromir was in neither case a reflection of a lack of confidence in Gandalf. Boromir simply knew Moria as a name of ill repute, and preferred a route that was more known to him and would get him to Gondor faster.

Aragorn's fear was for Gandalf, not the Quest in general.

FOTR A Journey In the Dark

There was no thought that Moria would put the Ring in any particular danger, no more than it was already. So Gandalf had done absolutely nothing that would warrant "arrest", or even choosing a new leader.

I think Tolkein made an error here. He is implying that Aragorn can forsee Gandalf's doom by entering Moria, when in reality it is more likely that any of the Company were in greater peril, not having any supernatural powers themselves. If Aragorn knew Gandalf was a Maiar, why would he forecast his doom?

[Morthoron]

I think Tolkein made an error here.

:rolleyes:

Now your questioning the omniscience of the author regarding his plot and his intentions?

[Moonraker]

:rolleyes:

Now your questioning the omniscience of the author regarding his plot and his intentions?

Tolkien was the first to admit his work had faults in it.

[Morthoron]

Mouthmoron, Tolkein was the first to admit his work had faults in it.

I question the sincerity of your posts here. By the way, his name is spelled Tolkien,
T-o-l-k-i-e-n. You've made that error a few times. But that is not surprising.

P.S. The namecalling is rather sophomoric, but apt for the type of poster you are.

[Inziladun]

I think Tolkein made an error here. He is implying that Aragorn can forsee Gandalf's doom by entering Moria, when in reality it is more likely that any of the Company were in greater peril, not having any supernatural powers themselves. If Aragorn knew Gandalf was a Maiar, why would he forecast his doom?

If you're going to say Tolkien was wrong, and use that to bolster your point, there's no need in discussing this further.

[Moonraker]

If you're going to say Tolkien was wrong, and use that to bolster your point, there's no need in discussing this further.

Only an opinion. But if he was right in allowing Aragorn the ability to express such accurate foresight, I would want to know how it was possible. He only spoke for the ill fortune of Gandalf, and no other member of the Company.

[Morthoron]

Only an opinion.

One without foundation, particularly since Tolkien did not subsequently edit or offer another later version of the sequence. Since there is no alternate storyline, the idea that Tolkien was wrong in what he wrote is inane; in any case, the author is never wrong, even if he changes his mind. The story is his to alter.

But if he was right in allowing Aragorn the ability to express such accurate foresight, I would want to know how it was possible.

Foresight, providence and prescience are hallmarks of the books. The foretelling of dooms runs from the early 1st Age through the end of the 3rd Age, from the Dooms of Mandos all the way to Saruman's curse of Frodo. I suggest you read further.

[Moonraker]

One without foundation, particularly since Tolkien did not subsequently edit or offer another later version of the sequence. Since there is no alternate storyline, the idea that Tolkien was wrong in what he wrote is inane; in any case, the author is never wrong, even if he changes his mind. The story is his to alter.



Foresight, providence and prescience are hallmarks of the books. The foretelling of dooms runs from the early 1st Age through the end of the 3rd Age, from the Dooms of Mandos all the way to Saruman's curse of Frodo. I suggest you read further.

The question remains unanswered. How did Aragorn foretell the imminent doom of a powerful Maiar, one that even the Nine Nazgul could not get past? He had been to Moria before, but did he have any news of an ancient terror dwelling there? This goes way past the level of accuracy of Glorfindel's prediction on the fate of the Witch-king, which took a very long time to fulfil.

[Morthoron]

The question remains unanswered. How did Aragorn foretell the imminent doom of a powerful Maiar? He had been to Moria before, but did he have any news of an ancient terror dwelling there?

Perhaps there is a perception problem here. I offered you the correct answer in my last reply, which you then quoted. Here, let me re-post it so that you may read it again. Several times if you'd like:

Foresight, providence and prescience are hallmarks of the books. The foretelling of dooms runs from the early 1st Age through the end of the 3rd Age, from the Dooms of Mandos all the way to Saruman's curse of Frodo. I suggest you read further.

[Moonraker]

Perhaps there is a perception problem here. I offered you the correct answer in my last reply, which you then quoted. Here, let me re-post it so that you may read it again. Several times if you'd like:

Not to the level of accuracy and imminence with which Aragorn suggested. The question remains unanswered. Aragorn could not have known without at least some inclination of truth that an ancient terror may be present in Moria powerful enough to kill Gandalf, and if he was to warn of the dangers of death in Moria, it would have been wiser to have expressed it for all the Company (Frodo nearly got killed by an orc spear, for instance, and Pippin could have fallen to his doom), and not just for the sake of Gandalf. He even suggested in Moria that Pippin should make use of Gandalf as the lead whilst they still had him to guide them. The level of accuracy in Aragorn's words is almost psychic.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Other people have addressed the issue of Aragorn's ability to make an arrest, but I'd also like to throw in my two-cents. Before he was crowned as King of Gondor and Arnor, he had zero authority except over those who swore allegiance to him. He was the Chieftain of the Dunedain, and as such, the Dunedain of the North owed him allegiance, but he claimed to ability to command or exercise authority beyond those people, not even the lands which his ancestors ruled, but merely those who counted themselves as his subjects. He did not exercise lordship over the Shire, over the the human settlements in the former territories of Arnor, but merely over the Dunedain who gave themselves over to his command.

Had he attempted to exercise authority over any land before being recognized by the existing government (say in Gondor before he was crowned), he would have been ignored. Aragorn even traveled to Gondor under an alias during the rule of the Steward Ecthelion II, but exercised no authority as King of Gondor; he merely served the steward as an advisor and commander in Gondor's armies.

Aragorn is not the only rightful king who refused to exercise his authority when he had no de facto rule over his territory. Thorin II did not reign as king until he had reclaimed Erebor. He, like the Chieftains of the Dunedain, exercised authority over subjects, but not the title and rights of a king over his kingdom. During the War of the Ring, Aragorn even wanted to avoid entering Minas Tirith until he had been crowned!

So, exercising any kind of authority as an officer/leader of Gondor is right out. Whether or not he had a right to isn't really the question, it's a question of would he have done so. The answer is no: Aragorn would exercise no authority derived from his status as king of Gondor until he had been crowned.

Next, his status as a member of the Fellowship. It has been brought up before that he might have challenged Gandalf's leadership if it appeared that Gandalf was leading the company to ruin. Arrest might be interpreted as simply devesting him of leadership authority and taking on the role himself. This is possible, but exceedingly unlikely. It would, first, require the support of either the rest of the Fellowship, or the Ringbearer, as even Gandalf deferred to Frodo's decisions. As has been brought up before, Gandalf was known (to Aragorn) to be a true and faithful servant of the Valar. His wisdom, while not entirely beyond question, was not to be taken lightly. Aragorn understood that Gandalf had the experience to properly evaluate the risks of traveling through Moria, despite their lack of knowledge of what was occupying the place. Gandalf's fall demonstrates that he was not infallible, but all other roads had been reasonably disqualified, and Boromir's evident desire to get the Ring to Gondor was troubling to all those who recognized it.

Gimli's desire to enter Moria wasn't exactly bias, in my opinion, but a combination of information and ignorance. Though the dwarves had not heard from the colony in Moria for some time, they had traveled to Rivendell (in large part) to seek Elrond's advice on investigating. They had no evidence that the colony had been destroyed; they just had no word whatsoever. Hardly confidence inspiring, but also not a reason to believe that it had been completely destroyed. Gimli obviously believed that some kind of friendly party likely occupied the place, or that whatever hostile force had occupied it before had been sufficiently subdued that it would present less of a threat than paths that were known to be watched by active enemies.

And, despite all that, Gandalf still thought it was a bad idea. He just saw no better option. He and Aragorn, in fact, agreed on that. They resolved that without a safer option, they would take the path of least resistance that wasn't confirmed to be under the watchful eye of a known enemy, but one that might be occupied by an unknown enemy that could reasonably have been recently defeated, in part if not in whole.

[Belegorn]

How did Aragorn foretell the imminent doom of a powerful Maiar, one that even the Nine Nazgul could not get past?

Did he do so, forecast Gandalf's "imminent doom"?

[Moonraker]

Arrest might be interpreted as simply devesting him of leadership authority and taking on the role himself.

Indeed, arrest does not necessarily mean sending Gandalf to jail. Aragorn taking over the leadership is a form of arrest, if done in such a manner as to dethrone Gandalf as the outright leader and authority of the Company and the quest.

[Belegorn]

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

You just used The Hobbit as part of your argument that the orcs had a better chance of beating Gandalf. Since we are both using this source, there is no need for you to dismiss it now, especially as it has been used in your arguments.

In the Hobbit, Tolkein suggests Gandalf would have died after leaping off his pine tree and into the crowd of orcs and their spears.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Indeed, arrest does not necessarily mean sending Gandalf to jail. Aragorn taking over the leadership is a form of arrest, if done in such a manner as to dethrone Gandalf as the outright leader and authority of the Company and the quest.

That's fine; the points I made following that statement remain valid. I don't believe Aragorn would have acted in such a manner. I mean, it's obvious that he didn't within the bounds of the story, but Gandalf would have had to have been purposefully acting against the purposes of the Fellowship for Aragorn to have acted in such a manner. Aragorn didn't even attempt to remove Boromir from the Fellowship, and I'm sure he recognized that Boromir was falling prey to the Ring's corruption. He would not have acted against Gandalf unless Gandalf took purposeful, deliberate action against the interests of the Ring's destruction, in my opinion.

[Moonraker]

You just used The Hobbit as part of your argument that the orcs had a better chance of beating Gandalf. Since we are both using this source, there is no need for you to dismiss it now, especially as it has been used in your arguments.

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf as a Maiar from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

[Belegorn]

Aragorn taking over the leadership is a form of arrest, if done in such a manner as to dethrone Gandalf as the outright leader and authority of the Company and the quest.

Aragorn was already leading the Company.

You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame.

Also Aragorn said he would follow Gandalf .

"But the question is: who will follow me, if I lead you there?"

"I will," said Gimli eagerly.

"I will," said Aragorn heavily.

[Moonraker]

Aragorn was already leading the Company.

Also Aragorn said he would follow Gandalf .

Yes, reluctantly, and then fortelling his possible doom in Moria. As though he is saying, fine I will follow you this time into Moria, but don't blame anyone but yourself if you perish. This last warning did not change Gandalf's mind, and the Ring went into the unknown darkness of Moria. Aragorn decided against arresting the situation and claiming the leadership at an opportune moment, when most of the Company would have possibly sided with him so as to not go through Moria.

[Smug the Fabulous]

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

You would be correct. Remember which book was written first.

[Corsair_Caruso]

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

I disagree.

I think it is important to note the difference between the eternal and immortally wise Olorin the Maia (Maiar is plural, Maia singular) and Gandalf the Wizard/Istar. Tolkien states in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Istari are real bodies, not just physical forms that the Maiar and Valar habitually wore to interact with the Children of Iluvatar.

"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain..."

[...]

... the Istari, being clad in bodies of Middle-earth, might even as Men and Elves fall away from their purposes, and do evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to effect it. [...] For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron the might redress the evils of that time." (Unfinished Tales: The Istari)

Let's look at these points. The bodies of the Istari could hunger, thirst, be slain, they forgot much of their wisdom and knowledge they had in their lives as Maiar in Valinor, and beforehand, and they could even fall into mortal sin from ignorance, fear, lust for power, etc... These were real bodies, that their incorruptible ëalar forms inhabited in a fashion similar to the fëar of the Mirröanwi inhabit their hröar. I'm fully of the opinion that Gandalf could have been slain by the wolves, or the Orks, or Gandalf could even have starved to death in the dungeons of Dol Guldur or died of exposure or thirst in his travels in Middle-earth, had he not taken care. Was he hardier than he looked? Definitely. He could probably survive being deprived of food or water longer than a man of his apparent age, perhaps even better than most Men, maybe even as well as Elves. But could he starve to death or die of dehydration? I think so. Could a Warg have ripped his throat out and would he have bled to death? I'm sure. It didn't happen, because Gandalf had the skills and power to prevent it, but it could have happened.

The difference between Olorin and Gandalf is pretty big, in my opinion. Gandalf, being embodied in a physical body that was his own and not just a fancy meat-suit he fabricated for himself, was subject to hormones and aching joints and adrenaline and being cranky because he was cold or hungry. He could forget spells and get frustrated and irritable because of it. Olorin was not subject to these same problems. Gandalf had much stricter limits on his authority and power than Olorin did, and Gandalf was much more easily slain than Olorin was. The two identities are distinct, though obviously intimately connected.

[Moonraker]

I disagree.

I think it is important to note the difference between the eternal and immortally wise Olorin the Maia (Maiar is plural, Maia singular) and Gandalf the Wizard/Istar. Tolkien states in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Istari are real bodies, not just physical forms that the Maiar and Valar habitually wore to interact with the Children of Iluvatar.



Let's look at these points. The bodies of the Istari could hunger, thirst, be slain, they forgot much of their wisdom and knowledge they had in their lives as Maiar in Valinor, and beforehand, and they could even fall into mortal sin from ignorance, fear, lust for power, etc... These were real bodies, that their incorruptible ëalar forms inhabited in a fashion similar to the fëar of the Mirröanwi inhabit their hröar. I'm fully of the opinion that Gandalf could have been slain by the wolves, or the Orks, or Gandalf could even have starved to death in the dungeons of Dol Guldur or died of exposure or thirst in his travels in Middle-earth, had he not taken care. Was he hardier than he looked? Definitely. He could probably survive being deprived of food or water longer than a man of his apparent age, perhaps even better than most Men, maybe even as well as Elves. But could he starve to death or die of dehydration? I think so. Could a Warg have ripped his throat out and would he have bled to death? I'm sure. It didn't happen, because Gandalf had the skills and power to prevent it, but it could have happened.

The difference between Olorin and Gandalf is pretty big, in my opinion. Gandalf, being embodied in a physical body that was his own and not just a fancy meat-suit he fabricated for himself, was subject to hormones and aching joints and adrenaline and being cranky because he was cold or hungry. He could forget spells and get frustrated and irritable because of it. Olorin was not subject to these same problems. Gandalf had much stricter limits on his authority and power than Olorin did, and Gandalf was much more easily slain than Olorin was. The two identities are distinct, though obviously intimately connected.

Gandalf the White does say in The White Rider that ordinary weapons could not hurt him.

[Belegorn]

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf as a Maiar from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

I have to disagree. Sauron, while bearing the One Ring was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil the Tall. An Elf and a Dúnadan. Hardly Maiar themselves.

Sauron himself came forth: and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down

I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand

Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron.

These are some of the references to Sauron dueling with an Elf and Dúnadan and both parties killing each other, like what happened with Gandalf and the Balrog. I'd say it's possible that Gandalf could be killed with weapons these guys possessed.

[Moonraker]

I have to disagree. Sauron, while bearing the One Ring was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil the Tall. An Elf and a Dúnadan. Hardly Maiar themselves.


These are some of the references to Sauron dueling with an Elf and Dúnadan and both parties killing each other, like what happened with Gandalf and the Balrog. I'd say it's possible that Gandalf could be killed with weapons these guys possessed.

Sauron was defeated, but not killed outright.

Possibly very powerful weapons could have harmed Gandalf the Grey, not sure about killing him outright though. Not orc spears however, even if this is stated in the Hobbit.

[Smug the Fabulous]

Proof of the physical fallibility of the Istari: Saruman. He was a powerful wizard and leader of the Istari, yet he was killed simply by having his throat slit.

[Moonraker]

Proof of the physical fallibility of the Istari: Saruman. He was a powerful wizard and leader of the Istari, yet he was killed simply by having his throat slit.

That after being denounced from the Istari by Gandalf the White. The breaking of Saruman's staff was symbolic of loss of all Maiar power, save his commanding voice.

[Morthoron]

Not to the level of accuracy and imminence with which Aragorn suggested. The question remains unanswered. Aragorn could not have known without at least some inclination of truth that an ancient terror may be present in Moria powerful enough to kill Gandalf, and if he was to warn of the dangers of death in Moria, it would have been wiser to have expressed it for all the Company (Frodo nearly got killed by an orc spear, for instance, and Pippin could have fallen to his doom), and not just for the sake of Gandalf. He even suggested in Moria that Pippin should make use of Gandalf as the lead whilst they still had him to guide them. The level of accuracy in Aragorn's words is almost psychic.

Do you simply argue for argument's sake, without foundation or research? The Gift of Foresight. Tolkien. Used it all the time. Correct foretelling of events. By many different characters. Throughout The Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings. Accurate. Foresight. A lot.

Mandos. Eol. Melian. Finrod. Malbeth (callled "the Seer" for a reason). Andreth. Elrond. Glorfindel. Galadriel. Dirhael and Ivorwen. Boromir and Faramir's dreams. Aragorn. Saruman. These are just off the top of my head, because the list of characters that exhibit the gift of foresight is extensive.

[Moonraker]

Do you simply argue for argument's sake, without foundation or research? The Gift of Foresight. Tolkien. Used it all the time. Correct foretelling of events. By many different characters. Throughout The Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings. Accurate. Foresight. A lot.

Mandos. Eol. Melian. Finrod. Malbeth (callled "the Seer" for a reason). Andreth. Elrond. Glorfindel. Galadriel. Dirhael and Ivorwen. Boromir and Faramir's dreams. Aragorn. Saruman. These are just off the top of my head, because the list of characters that exhibit the gift of foresight is extensive.

If Aragorn's foresight was so strong and well respected, why did Gandalf not take heed? And what happened to Gandalf's own foresight? Aragorn had nothing more than gut feel to guide him to make his eerily accurate prediction.

[Corsair_Caruso]

If Aragorn's foresight was so strong and well respected, why did Gandalf not take heed? And what happened to Gandalf's own foresight? Aragorn had nothing more than gut feel to guide him to make his eerily accurate prediction.

Perhaps Gandalf did take heed; maybe he deemed the possibility of his death in Moria an acceptable risk as compared to the greater possibility of the Ring's capture on any of the alternative roads.

[Moonraker]

Perhaps Gandalf did take heed; maybe he deemed the possibility of his death in Moria an acceptable risk as compared to the greater possibility of the Ring's capture on any of the alternative roads.

That is not the impression I got through his mood for much of the journey in Moria. He seemed as though he was content that he made the right call, but he knew Moria was not free. That all changed when the drums started to roll.

[Corsair_Caruso]

That is not the impression I got through his mood for much of the journey in Moria. He seemed as though he was content that he made the right call. That all changed when the drums started to roll.

Perhaps. We're really all delving into our impressions and personal interpretations of Gandalf's inner thoughts, decisions, and motives, at this point.

[Moonraker]

Perhaps. We're really all delving into our impressions and personal interpretations of Gandalf's inner thoughts, decisions, and motives, at this point.

I think Novices and Newcomers allows for some fun along the way. The more serious letter of the law stuff is perhaps more evident in the other sections.

[Belegorn]

I'd like to know where Aragorn forecasted Gandalf's "imminent doom". I know Aragorn mentioned his misgivings to Gandalf about going into Moria, but where is the passage of Aragorn saying, "If you go into Moria Gandalf, you will die."

I will follow your lead now - if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!

Foresight is of two kinds according to Tolkien (http://podelise.ru/docs/19345/index-4935-1.html). The one involves pre-vision, such as the gods who were allowed to see parts of the future by Eru. Then there is forecasting about a future not seen, "the deduction of the wise" by which "any mind, whether of the Valar or the Incarnate, may deduce by reason what will or may come to pass" [Osanwe-kenta, note 6].

I do not think Saruman's staff breaking was symbolic of his powers being lost. When Gandalf's staff broke he was still using his powers to fight the Balrog.

[Corsair_Caruso]

I think Novices and Newcomers allows for some fun along the way. The more serious letter of the law stuff is perhaps more evident in the other sections.

Oh, I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, I'm just saying that it's not really possible to draw hard conclusions from Gandalf's inner monologue when we're never made privy to it, so one person's personal interpretation is not necessarily any more or any less definitive than another's.

[Moonraker]

I'd like to know where Aragorn forecasted Gandalf's "imminent doom". I know Aragorn mentioned his misgivings to Gandalf about going into Moria, but where is the passage of Aragorn saying, "If you go into Moria Gandalf, you will die."



Foresight is of two kinds according to Tolkien (http://podelise.ru/docs/19345/index-4935-1.html). The one involves pre-vision, such as the gods who were allowed to see parts of the future by Eru. Then there is forecasting about a future not seen, "the deduction of the wise" by which "any mind, whether of the Valar or the Incarnate, may deduce by reason what will or may come to pass" [Osanwe-kenta, note 6].

I do not think Saruman's staff breaking was symbolic of his powers being lost. When Gandalf's staff broke he was still using his powers to fight the Balrog.

Aragorn also says,''Farewell, Gandalf! Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true! What hope have we without you?''

The Balrog did not break Gandalf's staff through supernatural power in the way Gandalf the White did for Saruman's staff. Of course a staff may fall and crack open if it is just made of oak. But neverthless it does symbolise the loss of power if broken through show of power, sending the bearer reeling.

[Corsair_Caruso]

I do not think Saruman's staff breaking was symbolic of his powers being lost. When Gandalf's staff broke he was still using his powers to fight the Balrog.

I actually do think there's a difference between the two; I interpret the breaking of Gandalf's staff as being less symbolic than Saruman's, because the breaking of Saruman's staff was, specifically, a punative action taken by Gandalf against the rebel Istar. I think Gandalf's increased authority, especially considering his statement that he was "Saruman as he should have been," was given him by Eru in part specifically to address Saruman's rebellion and betrayal. Gandalf took precedence over and above Saruman, gave him the chance to repent, and then punished him and voided his power and authority.

Now, I don't believe the Istari's magical power came from their staves, but I do believe that (if you'll pardon the reference), as the wands in Harry Potter, the staves facilitated the exercise of their native power which, if you'll remember, had been restricted by their embodiment as material, biological beings, as well as by statute of the Valar. I think Saruman's power was lessened by the breaking of his staff, but that Gandalf's authority may have extended even so far as to actually limit Saruman's power further, as punishment for his crimes and to prevent him from using his considerable power to further damage the Free Peoples.

Keep in mind, this is just my personal interpretation.

The loss of Gandalf's staff, on the other hand, was as the result of no punative action, specifically meant to restrict or lessen his status, but likely as a result of Gandalf exercising such a great amount of power against his foe. It may very well have lessened his ability to use "magic," but I don't think it had the same effect as the loss of Saruman's staff had on him.

[Moonraker]

I actually do think there's a difference between the two; I interpret the breaking of Gandalf's staff as being less symbolic than Saruman's, because the breaking of Saruman's staff was, specifically, a punative action taken by Gandalf against the rebel Istar. I think Gandalf's increased authority, especially considering his statement that he was "Saruman as he should have been," was given him by Eru in part specifically to address Saruman's rebellion and betrayal. Gandalf took precedence over and above Saruman, gave him the chance to repent, and then punished him and voided his power and authority.

Now, I don't believe the Istari's magical power came from their staves, but I do believe that (if you'll pardon the reference), as the wands in Harry Potter, the staves facilitated the exercise of their native power which, if you'll remember, had been restricted by their embodiment as material, biological beings, as well as by statute of the Valar. I think Saruman's power was lessened by the breaking of his staff, but that Gandalf's authority may have extended even so far as to actually limit Saruman's power further, as punishment for his crimes and to prevent him from using his considerable power to further damage the Free Peoples.

Keep in mind, this is just my personal interpretation.

The loss of Gandalf's staff, on the other hand, was as the result of no punative action, specifically meant to restrict or lessen his status, but likely as a result of Gandalf exercising such a great amount of power against his foe. It may very well have lessened his ability to use "magic," but I don't think it had the same effect as the loss of Saruman's staff had on him.

Well said, yet we need to stay with the thread question as much as possible.

[Morthoron]

If Aragorn's foresight was so strong and well respected, why did Gandalf not take heed? And what happened to Gandalf's own foresight? Aragorn had nothing more than gut feel to guide him to make his eerily accurate prediction.

Seriously? Did anyone heed the Dooms of Mandos the Vala that all came horribly true? Do you think the gift of foresight is constant for every minute of one's day? The gift of foresight is a notable attribute of Elves and the Dunedain, including Aragorn's direct ancestors. It does not mean that such foresight will be heeded, or that every action comes with foresight. Cassandra was cursed with true foresight gone unheeded in classical mythos.

But you see, this is the aspect of your posting that I find insincere. You argue in circles without proper documentation or research, merely opinions -- even questioning the author himself.

[Moonraker]

Seriously? Did anyone heed the Dooms of Mandos the Vala that all came horribly true? Do you think the gift of foresight is constant for every minute of one's day? The gift of foresight is a notable attribute of Elves and the Dunedain, including Aragorn's direct ancestors. It does not mean that such foresight will be heeded, or that every action comes with foresight. Cassandra was cursed with true foresight gone unheeded in classical mythos.

But you see, this is the aspect of your posting that I find insincere. You argue in circles without proper documentation or research, merely opinions -- even questioning the author himself.

Most of the Company members showed some degree of foresight, in that they all feared the darkness of Moria, and wanted no part of it. Gandalf and Gimli were the exceptions.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Most of the Company members showed some degree of foresight, in that they all feared the darkness of Moria, and wanted no part of it. Gandalf and Gimli were the exceptions.

I'd actually say that Gimli was the only exception. Gandalf still didn't want to go through Moria, he simply decided to do so despite that fear. He wasn't the only one.

[Moonraker]

I'd actually say that Gimli was the only exception. Gandalf still didn't want to go through Moria, he simply decided to do so despite that fear. He wasn't the only one.

Was Gandalf actually scared? Cautious and on guard yes, afraid, not so sure. He had been through Moria before, and spoke well of that accomplishment as though it was more than achievable second time round. Aragorn spoke of very evil memories in his visit to the mines, but he did not reveal what he saw.

[Morthoron]

Most of the Company members showed some degree of foresight, in that they all feared the darkness of Moria, and wanted no part of it. Gandalf and Gimli were the exceptions.

What has that got to do with what you were trying to argue about? Again, you are talking in circles. You questioned Aragorn's foresight, and I provided ample characters who at one time or another exhibited true, uncanny and accurate foresight. Also, trepidation or fear does not equal foresight.

[Moonraker]

What has that got to do with what you were trying to argue about? Again, you are talking in circles. You questioned Aragorn's foresight, and I provided ample characters who at one time or another exhibited true, uncanny and accurate foresight. Also, trepidation or fear does not equal foresight.

Of course I see that Aragorn showed at least some insight and foresight on Moria, having been in there himself previously. But I don't believe he had a gift for it beyond his Ranger instincts and common sense. The Company feared the darkness of Moria, suggesting that they suspected great evil remained there. A form of low level foresight.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Of course I see that Aragorn showed at least some insight and foresight on Moria, having been in there himself previously.But I don't believe he had a gift for it beyond his Ranger instincts and common sense.

Except that Aragorn's heritage as a descendent of Luthien gives him certain abilities beyond those of the average man. Being as this is middle earth, they are rather understated. But his abilities as a healer, in my opinion, demonstrate some level of true power.

[Morthoron]

Of course I see that Aragorn showed at least some insight and foresight on Moria, having been in there himself previously, but I don't believe he had a gift for it beyond his Ranger instincts and common sense.

That is an opinion that is unfortunately invalid. You find his foresight uncanny to the point you consider it unbelievable, then you claim that Tolkien himself was in error for portraying him that way. I offer you the fact that the gift of foresight was an ongoing and verifiable attribute throughout all the Ages of Middle-earth, that Tolkien himself mentioned such a gift, and among Aragorn's Dunedain ancestors that attribute was noted.

In future, less opinion more research, thank you.

[Moonraker]

That is an opinion that is unfortunately invalid. You find his foresight uncanny to the point you consider it unbelievable, then you claim that Tolkien himself was in error for portraying him that way. I offer you the fact that the gift of foresight was an ongoing and verifiable attribute throughout all the Ages of Middle-earth, that Tolkien himself mentioned such a gift, and among Aragorn's Dunedain ancestors that attribute was noted.

In future, less opinion more research, thank you.

Aragorn incorrectly feared that there was no exit from from the realm of Moria. He also did not fear for his other companions as voicefully (Frodo and Pippin both could have been killed). His foresight had limitations, and I do believe Tolkien was wrong to make it seem like Aragorn singled out and suspected Gandalf as the sole target to fall in Moria.

I did pay tribute to Aragorn's inherited Ranger instincts in my previous post. That, of course, cannot be discounted. I just don't see him being ''gifted'' with foresight to the extent you are implying. Aragorn, but great though a Ranger he may be, he isn't supernatural like Glorfindel, or Gandalf, or Elrond.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Aragorn incorrectly feared that there was no exit from from the realm of Moria. He also did not fear for his other companions as voicefully (Frodo and Pippin both could have been killed). His foresight had limitations, and I do believe Tolkien was wrong to make it seem like Aragorn singled out and suspected Gandalf as the sole target to fall in Moria.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion as a critic of literature; nevertheless, genuine foresight is canon, and noted in people of Aragorn's line and tribe. How does this affect his potential decision to replace Gandalf as leader of the Fellowship and take an alternate route?

[Belegorn]

A few things.

Regarding the staffs of the Istari, if they were intricately linked to a wizard's power, why did Saruman not take Gandalf's staff when he imprisoned him? I do not recall ever seeing a Maia or Vala having the ability to take or diminish the powers of another Maia. Has this been accounted possible in the annals of Arda?

I'm not certain of the idea of the native powers of the Istari being restricted by their embodiment. Rather their embodiment was meant "to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men" [UT; The Istari]. I think they were not to use their powers to have the Children of Eru heed them under duress and to not appear too grand, thus coming in humble bodies, that is, as older men.

they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.

their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advice and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavor to dominate and corrupt.

@ Moon yes they feared Moria and Boromir did not wish to go to Lothlórien either.

Your 2nd quote by Aragorn again does not sound like his concern was specifically a death sentence.

"I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" [FotR; A Journey in the Dark]

"Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true!" [FotR; Lothlórien]

What was it he was speaking of when he said beware? Was it "imminent death" or something else which just happened to lead to it?

[Moonraker]

A few things.

Regarding the staffs of the Istari, if they were intricately linked to a wizard's power, why did Saruman not take Gandalf's staff when he imprisoned him? I do not recall ever seeing a Maia or Vala having the ability to take or diminish the powers of another Maia. Has this been accounted possible in the annals of Arda?

I'm not certain of the idea of the native powers of the Istari being restricted by their embodiment. Rather their embodiment was meant "to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men" [UT; The Istari]. I think they were not to use their powers to have the Children of Eru heed them under duress and to not appear too grand, thus coming in humble bodies, that is, as older men.





@ Moon yes they feared Moria and Boromir did not wish to go to Lothlórien either.

Your 2nd quote by Aragorn again does not sound like his concern was specifically a death sentence.

"I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" [FotR; A Journey in the Dark]

"Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true!" [FotR; Lothlórien]

What was it he was speaking of when he said beware? Was it "imminent death" or something else which just happened to lead to it?

I think it is fair to say Aragorn feared for the fate of Gandalf for the worst if they entered Moria. Otherwise he would not have made such a meal of warning him as the strongest of the Company especially. Depends what you make of ''Beware'' and ''Alas that I spoke true''. To me it suggests, I fear for your life, and I told you so.

[Belegorn]

There are a couple of seers I know of. Malbeth The Seer and Tar-Palantir, the 24th King of Númenor were such. Malbeth has two prophecies I know of, one concerning Arvedui and the fate of the Northern Dúnedain, and the 2nd concerning Aragorn. These are instances of foresight among the Dúnedain, namely seers. There is also an instance of the Lossoth concerning Arvedui.

the counsel of the Lossoth was good, by chance or by foresight... So perished Arvedui

Also Aragorn's mother "had in a measure the foresight of her people" [Appendix A].

I'd suggest you take a look at that article by Tolkien I put a link to.

[Corsair_Caruso]

A few things.

Regarding the staffs of the Istari, if they were intricately linked to a wizard's power, why did Saruman not take Gandalf's staff when he imprisoned him?

A good question; an equally good question is why Gandalf the White was reluctant to surrender his staff in Edoras when asked to do so on Grima's orders. Perhaps Grima was merely acting on folklore describing the power of a wizard's staff, or perhaps he had insider's knowledge from his service with Saruman.

AI do not recall ever seeing a Maia or Vala having the ability to take or diminish the powers of another Maia. Has this been accounted possible in the annals of Arda?

Not explicitly that I recall, but Gandalf the White certainly did something to Saruman. He seemed fairly diminished after being cast out of the Order. But, yes, I admit it is entirely a personal interpretation.

I'm not certain of the idea of the native powers of the Istari being restricted by their embodiment. Rather their embodiment was meant "to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men" [UT; The Istari]. I think they were not to use their powers to have the Children of Eru heed them under duress and to not appear too grand, thus coming in humble bodies, that is, as older men.

Once again, this is personal interpretation based on my reading between the lines here. I am convinced that they were not simply forbidden to use their full power, but that their full power was unavailable to them. If their restraint relied solely upon ther compliance with the dictates of ther mission, Saruman would have been a much more dangerous enemy, and I think would have demonstrated more power than he did. One or two full exercises of his Maiarin strength would have gone a long way toward making him a more credible threat in Middle-earth.

[Mithalwen]

But by the time Gandalf, had been "sent back" and had perhabs was, for once acting as the arbiter of the authority they were both subject or at least answerable to.

[Nerwen]

Let’s get back to the original question, “Should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest?”

The answer seems clear: yes. Yes, he should have. For then, instead of further tedious footslogging, we could have had an awesome fantasy cop show, featuring Aragorn as the Middle-earth equivalent of the angry police captain! ("http://theangrypolicecaptain.com”)
(Site generates phrases typifying the stock character, e.g., “The Angry Police Captain just threw his mug at you”, “The Angry Police Captain thinks your partner is getting too close on this one”, “The Angry Police Captain takes it black with three sugars”.)

Much of this is easily adapted. Thus:

The Angry Ranger Captain doesn’t give a damn about jurisdiction when there are lives on the line.

The Angry Ranger Captain doesn’t have room for screw-ups in the Fellowship.

The Angry Ranger Captain took you off the Moria case.

The Angry Ranger Captain hates to do this, but it’s for your own good.


Try it and see!:smokin:

[Morthoron]

Let’s get back to the original question, “Should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest?”

The answer seems clear: yes. Yes, he should have.

Rather than Gandalf, perhaps Aragorn should've been more concerned with Trolls. I believe Trolls are more of an issue. Excuse me, I mean Trolls were more of an issue.

[Moonraker]

I'd actually say that Gimli was the only exception. Gandalf still didn't want to go through Moria, he simply decided to do so despite that fear. He wasn't the only one.

Tolkien said foresight had failed in him as to how the story should unfold after the Company were standing next to Balin's tomb in Moria. He did not pick up the story again for about another 2 years. He needed a way to get rid of Gandalf in order to have him used elsewhere, and not just as the guide for Frodo. I'm not even sure the words of warning from Aragorn before entering Moria were yet fully mapped out by Tolkien in terms of an outcome for Gandalf further down the line. What I do know is he wanted the Company to go through Moria and have Gandalf part ways with them. So Tolkien himself was not going to allow the characters to argue and get worked up so much as to cause mutiny and a break up of the Fellowship prior to entering Moria. Even Boromir was forced to go against his will into Moria thanks to the wolves.

[Andsigil]

Rather than Gandalf, perhaps Aragorn should've been more concerned with Trolls. I believe Trolls are more of an issue. Excuse me, I mean Trolls were more of an issue.

Trolls may still be an issue.

[Moonraker]

Let’s get back to the original question, “Should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest?”

The answer seems clear: yes. Yes, he should have. For then, instead of further tedious footslogging, we could have had an awesome fantasy cop show, featuring Aragorn as the Middle-earth equivalent of the angry police captain! ("http://theangrypolicecaptain.com”)
(Site generates phrases typifying the stock character, e.g., “The Angry Police Captain just threw his mug at you”, “The Angry Police Captain thinks your partner is getting too close on this one”, “The Angry Police Captain takes it black with three sugars”.)

Much of this is easily adapted. Thus:

The Angry Ranger Captain doesn’t give a damn about jurisdiction when there are lives on the line.

The Angry Ranger Captain doesn’t have room for screw-ups in the Fellowship.

The Angry Ranger Captain took you off the Moria case.

The Angry Ranger Captain hates to do this, but it’s for your own good.


Try it and see!:smokin:

As I think I explained earlier, arrest does not have to mean using handcuffs and sending Gandalf to a cell. Arrest of the situation whereby Aragorn takes command of the Company and the quest, and Gandalf is sidelined, is an example of how it may have panned out.

Most of what you have written in your last post is not relevant to this thread. All that experience, 5k plus posts and all.

[Smug the Fabulous]

Let’s get back to the original question, “Should Aragorn have placed Gandalf under arrest?”

The answer seems clear: yes. Yes, he should have. For then, instead of further tedious footslogging, we could have had an awesome fantasy cop show, featuring Aragorn as the Middle-earth equivalent of the angry police captain!

I've been thinking more along the lines of CSI: Arda, with Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas going around solving crimes every week.

LEGOLAS: Well, we stopped that crazy wizard from leading us into the mines of Moria.

GIMLI: Good thing you had the foresight to arrest Gandalf while you did, Aragorn.

ARAGORN: I don't like to brag but you could say on the matter of not entering Khazad-dûm, we nearly walked into our...dûm.

(Puts on sunglasses)

YEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!

LEGOLAS: ...what?

ARAGORN: What?

GIMLI: Is that the best pun you could come up with?

ARAGORN: Well, you know...the words doom and Khazad-dûm and...I thought-

GIMLI: Go have a lie down, Aragorn.

ARAGORN: Er, well...yeah, okay.

[Moonraker]

I've been thinking more along the lines of CSI: Arda, with Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas going around solving crimes every week.

LEGOLAS: Well, we stopped that crazy wizard from leading us into the mines of Moria.

GIMLI: Good thing you had the foresight to arrest Gandalf while you did, Aragorn.

ARAGORN: I don't like to brag but you could say on the matter of not entering Khazad-dûm, we nearly walked into our...dûm.

(Puts on sunglasses)

YEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!

LEGOLAS: ...what?

ARAGORN: What?

GIMLI: Is that the best pun you could come up with?

ARAGORN: Well, you know...the words doom and Khazad-dûm and...I thought-

GIMLI: Go have a lie down, Aragorn.

ARAGORN: Er, well...yeah, okay.

This is getting silly and immature. Not long before the mods delete this. It is not what responsible posters do. Certainly not Ivy League or Russell Group material.

[The Barrow-Wight]

Come on people. Let's get back on track or I'm just going to shut the thread down.

[Belegorn]

Arrest of the situation whereby Aragorn takes command of the Company and the quest, and Gandalf is sidelined, is an example of how it may have panned out.

Aragorn was already leading the Company. He told Gandalf that he almost lead them to their doom when they were considering Moria.

[Inziladun]

It's always sad to see a situation end this way. At the end of the day they're only books, and there's enough strife in the world without people getting up in arms over fiction. Ah, well.

Anyway, it seems obvious that neither Aragorn nor any other member of the Fellowship had the desire to stop following Gandalf, no matter the misgivings about their situation. He was the de facto leader from the start, and that too was never in question.

[Morthoron]

It's always sad to see a situation end this way. At the end of the day they're only books, and there's enough strife in the world without people getting up in arms over fiction. Ah, well.

Anyway, it seems obvious that neither Aragorn nor any other member of the Fellowship had the desire to stop following Gandalf, no matter the misgivings about their situation. He was the de facto leader from the start, and that too was never in question.

Look at the bright side, Gandalf is now safe from arrest or being bitten to death by Farmer Maggot's vicious dogs. It's a win-win situation.

[Nerwen]

It's always sad to see a situation end this way. At the end of the day they're only books, and there's enough strife in the world without people getting up in arms over fiction. Ah, well.
Indeed. But it was probably doomed from the start– I suspect ”Moonraker" of really being a sock puppet account for a certain troll who was banned a few years back.

The Barrow-Wight Himself has ordered us all to get back on track– only, what is "on track", at this point?:confused:

[Inziladun]

Indeed. But it was probably doomed from the start– I suspect ”Moonraker" of really being a sock puppet account for a certain troll who was banned a few years back.

You may be right.

The Barrow-Wight Himself has ordered us all to get back on track– only, what is "on track", at this point?:confused:

As far as this thread is concerned, its premise was settled for me from the get go. :rolleyes: