The Half-Elven Foundation-VII

[Ivriniel]

Hi there Reader,

You are welcome to post here, on absolutely any "Half-Elven" topic, for a specific cross-integration of "Elfy-by-Half" discussion, with some ideas as follows:


Lifespan matters
Pereldar Not Commonly Named
Earendil and Pre-Post Valinorean Decrees
Half-Elven Blood Lines (e.g. Imrahil)
About Silmarien (personal favourite)
About Gilmith, Ivriniel, Elladan, Elrohir, Elros, Elrond, the Heirs of Elros (all), and anyone I've missed
Half-Elven Mythology in General & External to Tolkien as a 'juxtapositioning' idea


This thread, though, has three further variations making it a 'beyond just a discussion' focus.

1. I'm coming and going here, as I'm wading through the Thread Histories of this Forum, to post Summary URL data, on prior Half-Elfy matters.
2. It's also for interacting with regular posters, for on-topic emphasis, but with the addendum permitting some social exchange. E.g.

Hi there. Just back after two weeks, because Xmas rush. I'll be back on and off over the coming days to update the thread. Hope everyone's been well.

Please enjoy coming and going here from time to time, for this warmer 'hello' thingy

3. The thread is -- unashamedly -- going to have a far higher number of Thread-Keeper Posts (at times, or at most times) than other posters' posts. There is to be a housekeeping reason for this, which will be about what I unearth in interesting posters' long-gone materials, that I hope to use to inspire participation. I may even go as far as PM'ing some long-lost people in hopes to have them return to keep us company.

As, such, it is also a 'meet n greet' Thread, and think of it as a 'Master of Ceremonies' kind of thread (visualise a wedding, here), and this is also what keeps the thread visible on the First Page of this Forum. I don't want a sticky. It's better to do it this way, as I've found it is more fun!

Also, please expect another or variation on this Thread, termed 'The Tale of the Years' which, like this thread, is really a 'meta-thread'. One can come to any meta-thread to grab really interesting valid ideas for a current thread of *any* kind, and in fact, use a meta-thread to ***invigorate*** any discussion with cross-linked URL.

Kind Regards
Stav

[Ivriniel]

Alphabetically Listed

1.Aragorn and Arwen Are NOT RELATED (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=16927&highlight=Half-Elven)
2. Arwen (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2347&highlight=Half-Elven)
3. Arwen could've gone to the Grey Havens? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=926&highlight=Half-Elven)
4. Arwen's Mortality (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=13103&highlight=Half-Elven)
5. Beren and Luthien to be Published (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19046&highlight=Half-Elven)
6. Celborn, Galdriel and Elrond (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1722&highlight=Half-Elven)
7. The Character Development of Arwen (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=804&highlight=Half-Elven)
8. The children of the king and queen (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1130&highlight=Half-Elven)
9. The Choices of the Peredhil, The Half Elven (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=827&highlight=Half-Elven)
10. Did Elladan and Elohir Die or go to Valinor (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=302&highlight=Half-Elven)
11. The Dilution of Elven Blood & Immortality (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18694&highlight=Half-Elven)
11. Dior (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=399&highlight=Half-Elven)
12. The Dior Dilemma (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=204&highlight=Half-Elven)
13. Dol Amroth (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1920&highlight=Half-Elven)
14. Earendil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1640&highlight=Half-Elven)
15. Edain/Eldar marriages (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=26&highlight=Half-Elven)
16. Eldarion (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2398&highlight=Half-Elven)
17. Elrond's name (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2289&highlight=Half-Elven)
18. Elrond and Elros (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1968&highlight=Half-Elven)
19. Elrond Peradan (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12608&highlight=Half-Elven)
20. Elrond's big mistake? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1517&highlight=Half-Elven)
21. Elros's Choice (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1906&highlight=Half-Elven)
22. Elven Blood in Faramir and Boromir (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=360&highlight=Half-Elven)
23. Elven genetics (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10421&highlight=Half-Elven)
24. Elven/Mortal marriages... (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=441&highlight=Half-Elven)
25. elves loving men (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2259&highlight=Half-Elven)
26. Eowyn Vs Arwen (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1825&highlight=Half-Elven)
27. Family trees: the peredhil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1645&highlight=Half-Elven)
28. The Fates of Elros' and Elronds' Heirs (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18474&highlight=Half-Elven)
29. A fourth union of Elves and Men?? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11158&highlight=Half-Elven)
30. The Greatest of the Eldar (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2525&highlight=Half-Elven)
31. Gondor and Rivendell (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2243&highlight=Half-Elven)
32. Half-Elf Afterlife (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1741&highlight=Half-Elven)
33. Half-elven Lifespan (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1519&highlight=Half-Elven)
34. Head of the family? Earendil or Luthien? Dark or Golden? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18201&highlight=Half-Elven)
35. The House of Finwe (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1838&highlight=Half-Elven)
36. Hope for Undomiel (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2050&highlight=Half-Elven)
37. How pointy were Elrond's ears? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=273&highlight=Half-Elven)
38. Immortality and the sons of Elrond (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15407&highlight=Half-Elven)
39. Imrahil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2399&highlight=Half-Elven)
40. King Elrond? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2484&highlight=Half-Elven)
41. The Lady of Dol Amroth (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2513&highlight=Half-Elven)
42. Men and Elves (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1163&highlight=Half-Elven)
43. Mixed Blood (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=14912&highlight=Half-Elven)
44. Only one lineage? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1981&highlight=Half-Elven)
45. The Point of the Unions (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12066&highlight=Half-Elven)
46. Relationship Elves and Men (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2365&highlight=Half-Elven)
47. Rivendell Elves & Lothlorien Elves (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=243&highlight=Half-Elven)
48. Tuor the Elf? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=17969&highlight=Half-Elven)
49. TUOR SON OF HUOR (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=662&highlight=Half-Elven)
50. The ultimate fate of the half elves between Beren/Luthian and Earindel/Elwing (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11858&highlight=Half-Elven)
51. Was it mean by Elrond? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=618&highlight=Half-Elven)
52. When they die, where do they go? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12089&highlight=Half-Elven)
53. Why did Arwen do that?? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2371&highlight=Half-Elven)
54. Who buries Arwen? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1598&highlight=Half-Elven)
55. Would the Half-Elven vanish if they wore an elven ring? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18200&highlight=Half-Elven)

Chronologically Listed [Reverse Date Order]

1. The Dilution of Elven Blood & Immortality (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18694&highlight=Half-Elven)
2. Immortality and the sons of Elrond (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15407&highlight=Half-Elven)
3. The Fates of Elros' and Elronds' Heirs (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18474&highlight=Half-Elven)
4. Head of the family? Earendil or Luthien? Dark or Golden? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18201&highlight=Half-Elven)
5. Would the Half-Elven vanish if they wore an elven ring? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18200&highlight=Half-Elven)
6. Tuor the Elf? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=17969&highlight=Half-Elven)
7. Aragorn and Arwen Are NOT RELATED (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=16927&highlight=Half-Elven)
8. Half-elven Lifespan (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1519&highlight=Half-Elven)
9. Mixed Blood (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=14912&highlight=Half-Elven)
10. The Greatest of the Eldar (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2525&highlight=Half-Elven)
11. The Dior Dilemma (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=204&highlight=Half-Elven)
12. Arwen's Mortality (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=13103&highlight=Half-Elven)
13. Elrond Peradan (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12608&highlight=Half-Elven)
14. When they die, where do they go? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12089&highlight=Half-Elven)
15. How pointy were Elrond's ears? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=273&highlight=Half-Elven)
16. The Point of the Unions (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=12066&highlight=Half-Elven)
17. The ultimate fate of the half elves between Beren/Luthian and Earindel/Elwing (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11858&highlight=Half-Elven)
18. A fourth union of Elves and Men?? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=11158&highlight=Half-Elven)
19. Why did Arwen do that?? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2371&highlight=Half-Elven)
20. Elven genetics (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10421&highlight=Half-Elven)
21. The Character Development of Arwen (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=804&highlight=Half-Elven)
22. The Lady of Dol Amroth (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2513&highlight=Half-Elven)
23. Eldarion (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2398&highlight=Half-Elven)
24. Half-Elf Afterlife (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1741&highlight=Half-Elven)
25. Elven/Mortal marriages... (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=441&highlight=Half-Elven)
26. Relationship Elves and Men (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2365&highlight=Half-Elven)
27. Who buries Arwen? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1598&highlight=Half-Elven)
28. Elrond's big mistake? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1517&highlight=Half-Elven)
29. The children of the king and queen (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1130&highlight=Half-Elven)
30. Arwen (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2347&highlight=Half-Elven)
31. Elven Blood in Faramir and Boromir (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=360&highlight=Half-Elven)
32. Did Elladan and Elohir Die or go to Valinor (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=302&highlight=Half-Elven)
33. Only one lineage? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1981&highlight=Half-Elven)
34. Hope for Undomiel (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2050&highlight=Half-Elven)
35. Dol Amroth (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1920&highlight=Half-Elven)
36. Edain/Eldar marriages (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=26&highlight=Half-Elven)
37. King Elrond? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2484&highlight=Half-Elven)
38. The Choices of the Peredhil, The Half Elven (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=827&highlight=Half-Elven)
39. elves loving men (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2259&highlight=Half-Elven)
40. TUOR SON OF HUOR (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=662&highlight=Half-Elven)
41. Arwen could've gone to the Grey Havens? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=926&highlight=Half-Elven)
42. Elros's Choice (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1906&highlight=Half-Elven)
43. Gondor and Rivendell (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2243&highlight=Half-Elven)
44. Men and Elves (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1163&highlight=Half-Elven)
45. Was it mean by Elrond? (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=618&highlight=Half-Elven)
46. Eowyn Vs Arwen (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1825&highlight=Half-Elven)
47. Imrahil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2399&highlight=Half-Elven)
48. Elrond's name (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2289&highlight=Half-Elven)
49. The House of Finwe (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1838&highlight=Half-Elven)
50. Dior (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=399&highlight=Half-Elven)
51. Rivendell Elves & Lothlorien Elves (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=243&highlight=Half-Elven)
52. Celborn, Galdriel and Elrond (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1722&highlight=Half-Elven)
53. Earendil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1640&highlight=Half-Elven)
54. Family trees: the peredhil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1645&highlight=Half-Elven)
55. Elrond and Elros (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1968&highlight=Half-Elven)
56. Beren and Luthien to be Published (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19046&highlight=Half-Elven)

[Ivriniel]

.....pending

[Ivriniel]

What do we mean by 'Half?' Half As Powerful, by Half, or Half as Powerful Beyond By Half?

1. Maia as 'Half-or-Part Valar, but Half Again more Powerful than Elf and Half Elf' (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=14709&postcount=1)

[Ivriniel]

Prince Imrahil (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19008) has some measure of Elven Blood.

This invites questions about whether or not The Line of the Prince's of Dol Amroth were every gifted with the Choice of the Peredhil.

Dol Amroth was south of Edhellond. There was a Elvish port at there, where Elves departed into the West, many of whom left from there during the War of Elves and Sauron SA. Galadriel spent some time there. It's an interesting part of the world. It seem's there was more than one union of Elves and Men there given how Elfy Imrahil was.

Does anyone know anything more about this?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think this was addressed in that thread: the Choice was given to Earendil, Elwing and their descendants, only.

Manwë gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.'

[Ivriniel]

I think this was addressed in that thread: the Choice was given to Earendil, Elwing and their descendants, only.

Thank you William.

I will bring the actual Silmarillion text, citing Mandos's literal words at some point here.

The questions about the Peredhil or Pereldar (another item or emphasis of discussion) raises at least three broad areas of inquiry.

1. The question of Doom, and 'what Doom' means for Mandos to Grant the Choice to another Peredhil, of however much Mortal blood (and -- I've deliberately worded it that way, because I'm not convinced that a quarter-blood, for example, should be denied Doom and Choice - see below).

2. The question of Grace and traverse to Valinor, (a separate point about accessing the Straight Road, and 'for Whom'). Interestingly, if Frodo, Bilbo and Gimli (presumably) are permitted traverse, then any being with any splash or no of Elven blood may traverse. However, the question raised is--is this Doom or Blood that is about the Straight Road. So, for example, is 'any old Peredhil' permitted (who, for example, chose the Edain). Could the Princes of Dol Amroth traverse? Did any of them (such as for example Gilmith traverse, who is Imrazor's and Mithrelas's other child?

3. The question, most high on my mind, is one about bloodline synergy. People most often assume that 'Half-Elven' means 'you didn't get all the Elven powers, body traits or Lorecraft'.

I do not accept this premise. A half-elf is the paradox of Both and Neither, which can be fathomed in many ways. Both and Neither is a synergy question to put to the Union (c.f. 'melding') of Blood. The question of capacities for a being of such mystical union, can be biological, mental, metaphysical (the 'Otherworld/Glorfindel' example at Flight to the Ford), or Spiritual in the more literal or symbolic sense.

These are all questions for discussion here and commentary, or items for new threads.

Thank you for posting, and please continue if you have something to say. The Foundation is not just a summary thread. It's to elicit and prompt new ways of conceiving of --ideas-- implied by Canon, sometimes by noting inconsistencies in it.

Kind Regards, and hope you have been well

Iv

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Mandos has no power to grant any Choice. It was only granted once, by Manwe, after communing with the mind of Eru.

[Ivriniel]

Mandos has no power to grant any Choice. It was only granted once, by Manwe, after communing with the mind of Eru.

I'm sorry, I confused two concept, in my haste. Yes, of course it was Manwe who rules the Ainur, but I was focussing upon Mandos and the Halls of the Dead and his role in this. Mandos had a role in the outcome (as ruler of the houses of the Dead).

On this discussion item, two further points. The children of the Half Elven born after the Decree imply that Manwe did not 'waive a wand' once. The point I was making was that Gatekeeper (Mandos) and Decree (prior) hold over time.

The second point goes to interpretation of Canon about wording. At the time the Decree was made, there were no other Peredhil, and so the term subsumed all the living blended offspring.

The point goes to Doom, Grace, and precedent. There is no reason to conclude that (Manwe) through (Mandos) cannot or would not extend the Choice for another Union. Putting it another way: absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Thank you for the correction, though. I'm curious to hear your thoughts about the other areas of discussion. Especially bloodline Unions and my sense that half casts and not half as powerful to each of their representative Race. The Peredhil, all were exceptional exemplars of *both* races. I don't belive lessening applies.

What do you think? Do you have any exceptional references that you can cite, or that are a good read?

Cheers

[Ivriniel]

5. Beren and Luthien to be Published (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19046&highlight=Half-Elven)

I hope it addresses the headache we have about the Peredhil and their Choice. I want to see something about the Elves at Edhellond where there was obvious significant intermingling

[Ivriniel]

The materials cite the alternate wording of the Decree of Manwe about the Pereldar

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=715773&postcount=9