Where do elves get metal?

[Axbolt]

This is probably a silly question with an obvious answer but:
I've never seen any mention of an eleven mine, and I certainly can't see Thranduill trading with dwarves for steel for arrow heads. Although there is plenty of reference to them having many diferent metals.
So where do elves get there metal?

My brother suggested that they sell maggotey bread to Orcs for steel? :confused:

[Zigûr]

Gondolin is specifically stated as having mines. Consider this statement about Maeglin:
"he gathered about him all such as had the most bent to smithcraft and mining; and he sought in the Echoriath (which are the Encircling Mountains), and found rich lodes of ore of divers metals. Most he prized the hard iron of the mine of Anghabar in the north of the Echoriath, and thence he got a wealth of forged metal and of steel, so that the arms of the Gondolindrim were made ever stronger and more keen; and that stood them in good stead in the days to come."

This is the only statement I can find in The Silmarillion about Elven mines, but given that so many Elves lived underground, including Thranduil, I would consider it very unlikely that they didn't have their own mines. Mines tend to usually be mentioned in the context of Dwarves and the enemy, it seems, but I wouldn't say that means that the Men of Gondor, for instance, who were great metalworkers, didn't have mines.

Considering how much the Noldor loved working with metal, I'd say it would be practically essential that they had mines of their own. I can't see Eregion not having its own mines, for instance.

That being said, I'm sure some Elves did acquire it through trade with Dwarves; not Thranduil perhaps, but those with friendly relations presumably could have.

[Axbolt]

Very interesting, so I would assume that if elves mined at Gondolin then they must still mine in middle earth. However there is no mention of it anywhere in LOTR that I can find.

[Zigûr]

Nope. I've done a search of the whole thing (The Lord of the Rings, I mean) and couldn't find a reference to Mines outside of those used by Dwarves and Orcs.

It just seems likely to me that they probably did have their own mines. Professor Tolkien just doesn't seem to often describe such industrial business when it comes to Elves, even though there were surely Elf-miners and Elf-farmers and Elves who did all sorts of fairly menial manual labour to keep Elven society running; perhaps they just did it so well (as you might imagine they would) that it just wasn't worth mentioning!

[skip spence]

Wasn't it also implied or stated that Maeglin's and his father Eöl's keen interest in mining and smithcraft was rather looked down on by the other nobles? That it was below their station to go under ground and dig for ore and that they became bent by their labour? It does seem a rather un-Elvish thing to do.

I would assume that the Elves of Middle Earth would trade with Dwarves or Men for ore, metals and metalwork rather than doing it themselves if they had the opportunity.

Like fex Thingol would have the Dwarves of Ered Luin supply his metal and smithying needs. I assume that Thranduil would trade for his fill as well, maybe with the Men of Dale acting as middle men between him and the Dwarves. Almost certainly the Noldor of Eregion would have gotten most of their metals and ore from Moria, even though the Noldor would have been the most keen miners of the Elvish peoples. The Elves of Lindon in the Third Age also had Dwarven neighbours.

The native Wood-Elves would barely use metals, if at all, methinks.

[Inziladun]

Wasn't it also implied or stated that Maeglin's and his father Eöl's keen interest in mining and smithcraft was rather looked down on by the other nobles? That it was below their station to go under ground and dig for ore and that they became bent by their labour? It does seem a rather un-Elvish thing to do.

Then again, didn't Morgoth value his Noldorin slaves for their skills in mining and smithwork?

[Axbolt]

Wasn't it also implied or stated that Maeglin's and his father Eöl's keen interest in mining and smithcraft was rather looked down on by the other nobles? That it was below their station to go under ground and dig for ore and that they became bent by their labour? It does seem a rather un-Elvish thing to do

If mining is an un-elvish thing to do, then a lot of things must be an un-elvish thing to do. It must be very boring to be an elf;)

[Zigûr]

Wasn't it also implied or stated that Maeglin's and his father Eöl's keen interest in mining and smithcraft was rather looked down on by the other nobles? That it was below their station to go under ground and dig for ore and that they became bent by their labour? It does seem a rather un-Elvish thing to do.
Well Eöl was certainly "stooped by his smithwork" but he was disdained by Curufin as a "Dark Elf" rather than for other apparent reasons, at least as far as I can see.

Also, I don't think other Elf nobles would have looked down on smithcraft; at least the Noldor would not have done, as Fëanor was the greatest craftsman of their people and also King for a time and held in high esteem.

Furthermore, many Elves didn't just go underground but lived underground as a matter of course, if usually for defensive purposes, and that included Noldor like Finrod in Nargothrond as well as "Dark" Elves like Thingol and Thranduil.

The Silmarillion does state, however, that Eöl often took Maeglin to the mansions of the Dwarves in Ered Luin where he learned "the craft of finding the ores of metals in the mountains," so perhaps such skills were not necessarily common among Elves; but they had to have been common enough that the craftsmen of Turgon could delve their own mines in the Encircling Mountains, unless those mines were not delved until after Maeglin came to Gondolin.

It just seems very unlikely to me that Elves never acquired metal for themselves on their own. Not all Elves were noblemen of high station and many must surely have done fairly "ordinary" work, albeit probably in a superior, Elvish way.

[Belegorn]

Then again, didn't Morgoth value his Noldorin slaves for their skills in mining and smithwork?

At least in BoLT it is mentioned how he used the enslaved Elves to build his machines.

[Inziladun]

At least in BoLT it is mentioned how he used the enslaved Elves to build his machines.

The Silmarillion, in Of Túrin Turambar states:

For few of the Noldor whom Morgoth captured were put to death, because of their skill in forging and in mining for metals and gems...

I doubt Thranduil's people did that stuff, but they could once have had trade with Dwarves of Erebor, the Iron Hills, or even long ago Moria, and still had arrow points and such stockpiled. After all, arrows can usually be retrieved.

[skip spence]

Well Eöl was certainly "stooped by his smithwork" but he was disdained by Curufin as a "Dark Elf" rather than for other apparent reasons, at least as far as I can see.

Also, I don't think other Elf nobles would have looked down on smithcraft; at least the Noldor would not have done, as Fëanor was the greatest craftsman of their people and also King for a time and held in high esteem.

Furthermore, many Elves didn't just go underground but lived underground as a matter of course, if usually for defensive purposes, and that included Noldor like Finrod in Nargothrond as well as "Dark" Elves like Thingol and Thranduil.

The Silmarillion does state, however, that Eöl often took Maeglin to the mansions of the Dwarves in Ered Luin where he learned "the craft of finding the ores of metals in the mountains," so perhaps such skills were not necessarily common among Elves; but they had to have been common enough that the craftsmen of Turgon could delve their own mines in the Encircling Mountains, unless those mines were not delved until after Maeglin came to Gondolin.

It just seems very unlikely to me that Elves never acquired metal for themselves on their own. Not all Elves were noblemen of high station and many must surely have done fairly "ordinary" work, albeit probably in a superior, Elvish way.
Yes I'm not suggesting they never would. The case of isolated Gondolin is clear proof of that. Even in The Undying Lands there must've been Elvish mines - no Dwarves over there but the Firstborn still worked with metal. I do think that most Elves would probably prefer to buy ore and smithy-work from the Dwarves because they didn't want to dirty their fingernails in the mines and because the Dwarves were the best in the business.

I'm going by memory here but I suppose I might be reading too much into that Eöl was 'stooped' by his work. That this crookedness would be a reflection not only of his physical shape but also of his soul. His son Maeglin, the most wicked of all Elves, was of course also a keen miner something I can't help but to connect.

[Inziladun]

I might be reading too much into that Eöl was 'stooped' by his work. That this crookedness would be a reflection not only of his physical shape but also of his soul. His son Maeglin, the most wicked of all Elves, was of course also a keen miner something I can't help but to connect.

Maybe Eöl's "stoop" was also an image of the way in which he'd become almost Dwarvish: obsessed with his craft, secretive, and insular.

[Zigûr]

they didn't want to dirty their fingernails in the mines
Do Elves really seem this squeamish or vain in the books? I feel like this modern pop-cultural idea of Elves as universally being aristocratic snobs who spend all their time sitting around smelling flowers or something is not really borne out in Professor Tolkien's work. Surely Elves had to do all manner of "dirty" jobs all the time. They were probably just able to do them more effectively and with more dignity and poise than Men and other peoples; perhaps not when in the fetters of Morgoth, which I imagine was a miserable time for all concerned, but in their own realms.

I think it may not actually be clear if the Elves used metal before they were taught in its use by Aulë in Aman. They certainly do not appear to have forged metal weapons prior to being taught how to do so by Melkor in Aman. I wonder if the Avari used metal. Perhaps they had to be taught by the Dwarves, who seemed to have been endowed with such knowledge by Aulë.

[skip spence]

Do Elves really seem this squeamish or vain in the books? I feel like this modern pop-cultural idea of Elves as universally being aristocratic snobs who spend all their time sitting around smelling flowers or something is not really borne out in Professor Tolkien's work. Surely Elves had to do all manner of "dirty" jobs all the time. They were probably just able to do them more effectively and with more dignity and poise than Men and other peoples; perhaps not when in the fetters of Morgoth, which I imagine was a miserable time for all concerned, but in their own realms.
.
Squeamish, no. Vain and snobbish, yeah.

Think this is partly because pretty much all the Elves we meet are high ranking nobles and also, more significantly, because the Prof wanted to give the Elves this aura of elevated and transcendent aloofness - describing them at work with dull menial tasks goes against that. But yeah, since they seem to have most of the basic needs that Men do, one has to assume that they also do the dirty work that comes with satisfying them.

Maybe Eöl's "stoop" was also an image of the way in which he'd become almost Dwarvish: obsessed with his craft, secretive, and insular.
Yeah, that too I'm sure.

[Axbolt]

Squeamish, no. Vain and snobbish, yeah.


I agree, I don't think that they are squeamish, but I would say they would have no problem, minding and doing other dirty work if they weren't trying to be as un-dawarvish as posible.

[Zigûr]

Firstly I want to say sorry (especially to skip spence) if I'm banging on about this too much and/or making too much of one remark.

In any event, high-ranking Elves certainly could be arrogant, even towards each other, and I recall that they do seem to have considered some people to be "ugly" (I thought this was about the Dwarves, but it was the language of the Dwarves which is "unlovely" to their ears).

At the same time, however, I don't recall Elves ever being "precious" about their appearances in a "don't want to get their fingernails dirty" kind of way. Elves were naturally "fair" and seem to have generally been well-dressed and well-groomed, but I don't recall them ever, as it were, "wrinkling their noses" in a sort of posh way at things they thought were dirty or unhygienic or something like that. Finrod doesn't seem to have cared about disguising himself as an Orc, for instance, although perhaps those disguises were purely magical.

I suppose this is bringing to my mind the image of a posh nobleman holding some "dirty" thing at arm's length with a wrinkled nose, and such behaviour simply doesn't come across to me in the books. Many high-ranking Elves were craftsmen, and that's inevitably dirty, sweaty work. Some of them may have sneered at "lesser" Elves and other peoples, but they don't come across as shying away from "dirty" work (of which battle was surely another one).

I apologies if I'm going on too much about this, and I don't mean to harp on about one thing you said skip spence. I'm just not sure how much evidence there is for this "avoiding getting their fingernails dirty" characterisation of Elves.

[Galadriel55]

I think the fact that Elves are portrayed as "constantly elegant" does not mean that they are squeamish or contemptuous of dirty work, but rather that the work for them is not dirty at all. They are just creative beings, and they turn everything into creation, into art. Arranging food on platters is an art, not a service. Mining is also an art, and a rather skill-demanding one. And good metalwork (and I therefore presume good metal extraction from the ground) is a skill that's honoured, so perhaps it's not as lowly as you make it sound.

I realize that I'm talking more about late Third Age ME Elves when I talk about art. The First Age Elves were darker, certainly had less smooth "class systems" and more tensions between them. However, I still think that their essence of creativity rather than destruction is present throughout.

And this brings me to the main point of how Elf mines could have been different from Dwarf (or orc) mines. Unlike those two, Elves don't seem to make industries for anything. They don't make more things for the sake of making more; they make just as much as they need for the foreseeable future. They use wood too, but they would never chop down forests; the Dwarves, while they have intentions of creation, can lose track of the destructive aspect - which is why they awoke Durin's Bane, and why Yavanna was concerned about their existence. When Dwarves make, they make it an industry. Elves don't; if they had mines, those mines would be smaller and as harmless as possible. Those Elves who lived underground probably had more extensive mines, but still not "industry scale" like the Dwarves, and certainly not "full on destructive" like the orcs. So I think they had some mines, but they were smaller and not used as often.

[Zigûr]

I think the fact that Elves are portrayed as "constantly elegant" does not mean that they are squeamish or contemptuous of dirty work, but rather that the work for them is not dirty at all. They are just creative beings, and they turn everything into creation, into art. Arranging food on platters is an art, not a service. Mining is also an art, and a rather skill-demanding one. And good metalwork (and I therefore presume good metal extraction from the ground) is a skill that's honoured, so perhaps it's not as lowly as you make it sound.
I think this is a very good way of looking at it, and ties nicely to Professor Tolkien's literary influences from arts-and-crafts supporter William Morris. In Morris' utopian text News from Nowhere, the "problem of labour" has been eliminated because all labour is now art.
Elves don't seem to make industries for anything. They don't make more things for the sake of making more; they make just as much as they need for the foreseeable future.
Yes, this seems like it. Letter 131 captures these points about the Elves well:
"Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation."
I think "industry" comes under that second type, "domination and tyrannous re-forming", in Professor Tolkien's view.

[Axbolt]

When Dwarves make, they make it an industry. Elves don't; if they had mines, those mines would be smaller and as harmless as possible. Those Elves who lived underground probably had more extensive mines, but still not "industry scale" like the Dwarves, and certainly not "full on destructive" like the orcs. So I think they had some mines, but they were smaller and not used as often.

Excellent exsplanation Galadriel55, given what you have just said I would say that modern day humans are most like dawarves, ore even orcs, anything we make, we make an industry.
This would exsplain why Tolkien never mentioned elves mining in LOTR's or TH. Dawarves mined as an industry, and therefore it was an important part of there way of live. Although elves mines when they needed steel, not to sell steel, in much the same way that a hobbit would fix the roof if it leaked (sorry, couldn't think of a better metaphor) but it wouldn't become part of there way of life. And not being way of life, isn't important enough to the story to be worth mentioning.

[Leaf]

I think this question ties in with a general lack of mundane information about elvish societies. One might as well ask "where did the elves get their leather?". I mean can you picture smelly elvish tanners who are doing this disgusting kind of labour? Yet I'm fairly certain that elves used leather. I don't find this lack of information to be a problem. It's a consequence of the narrow perspective we have access to.

I realize that I'm talking more about late Third Age ME Elves when I talk about art. The First Age Elves were darker, certainly had less smooth "class systems" and more tensions between them. However, I still think that their essence of creativity rather than destruction is present throughout.

I wonder if this difference in perception has something to do with the hobbitish perspective of the Hobbit/Lord of the rings novels. The Hobbits (especially Sam) seem to idealise and glorify the elves to a certain degree, which might have influenced them (as authors of the red book) in their reports and retelling of the "actual events".

[Axbolt]

I wonder if this difference in perception has something to do with the hobbitish perspective of the Hobbit/Lord of the rings novels. The Hobbits (especially Sam) seem to idealise and glorify the elves to a certain degree

Yes, I guess that is possible and that our image of elves from the books and movies could be compleatly wrong. We did only realy meet nobals and warriors in the storys, and therefore have no real idia about actual elvish civilization and normal life. What we do know will be influanced by 'hobbitish' views.

[skip spence]

Firstly I want to say sorry (especially to skip spence) if I'm banging on about this too much and/or making too much of one remark.
...
I apologies if I'm going on too much about this, and I don't mean to harp on about one thing you said skip spence. I'm just not sure how much evidence there is for this "avoiding getting their fingernails dirty" characterisation of Elves.

No worries mate i dont feel in any way offended nor attacked. Im mostly talking out of my arse anyway. I do think that the Elves generally give off this "holier than thou" impression even though they don't nessesary shy away from hard work. You know: 'we don't normally hang with dull hobbits but we'll make an exception for tonight and you should be very grateful' that kind of attitude.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

1) The Noldor in Valinor definitely mined for gems

2) To the extent the BOLT is canon, one of the Twelve Houses (Meglin's) was that of the Mole, a house of miners. They were distinct from Rog's Hammer, the smiths.

3) The Noldor most assuredly quarried, not all that far from mining. "Deep they delved us" goes Legolas' song in Hollin.

[Zigûr]

I'm currently in the process of making final emendations to my successful PhD thesis on Professor Tolkien and utopianism (ie I should be graduating in September but a few small changes have been requested prior to final submission), and this has involved touching upon Dr. Rateliff's The History of the Hobbit. I was particularly interested in reading the passages of the short-lived 1960 "rewrite", which includes among other things a new episode featuring a broken bridge, the Last Bridge of The Lord of the Rings. Dr. Rateliff muses that in this version of events "clearly Elrond must have restored it sometime in the intervening years" but later makes the following remark:

While Elrond's maintenance of the road makes sense and is in keeping with his role as the preserver of the last vestiges of the North Kingdom, it is hard to picture the elves of Rivendell working at road-mending, since throughout the legendarium the elves are never associated with road-making.

While it is true that we hear very little of Elf-roads in the texts, although there was a path through Mirkwood used by Thranduil's people, it does not seem unreasonable to me to imagine Elves being capable of restoring and maintaining bridges and roads where necessary given their talent in so many other crafts.

With no disrespect intended to Dr. Rateliff, I wonder if this speculation also arises from this curiously common assumption that Elves were averse to manual labour.

[Inziladun]

With no disrespect intended to Dr. Rateliff, I wonder if this speculation also arises from this curiously common assumption that Elves were averse to manual labour.

Quite possibly. It seems fairly common for people, at least those with a relatively superficial acquaintance with the books, to pigeonhole the different races into rigid characterizations.

[Zigûr]

at least those with a relatively superficial acquaintance with the books
This is why I find Dr. Rateliff's suggestion odd, because he is an expert and surely would be altogether familiar with the variety of Elvish occupations.

I also couldn't help but think that that if there isn't any other evidence for Elves being road-builders and bridge-builders, surely this statement is that evidence. There's also mention of an "ancient road" passing through the defile of Sirion towards Nargothrond, although it's unclear by whom it was built. Similarly, it's unclear to me if Thranduil's road through northern Mirkwood was paved or if it was more of an informal path through the trees. There was also the road that ran from Ost-in-Edhil to Khazad-dûm, and it's implied that this was an Elf-Dwarf collaboration.

[Alcuin]

There are certainly bridges built by the Noldor. The stone bridge over the Narog built at the behest of Turin in Nargothrond is one. But the construction techniques of the Noldor were unrivalled by any but the best of the Dwarves: Gondolin with its repurposed tunnel through the Encircling Mountains, an echo of the Gate of the Noldor that Turgon left behind; Finrod’s fortress at Tol Sirion; Tirion upon Túna in Eldamar; Fëanor’s fortress in the north of Valinor, where he kept the Silmarilli and his father Finwë was murdered by Morgoth; not to mention the various other fortresses of the Noldor in Beleriand (of Maedhros at Himring, of Caranthir in Ered Luin, and so on). All were described as beautiful, strong, and enduring even under attack.

While the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm no doubt assisted in some of the works of Eregion, I think we should imagine that most of the construction in that land was the handiwork of the Noldor. As Legolas reported when the Company of the Ring entered Hollin, [T]he Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them; only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.The stones of Hollin at least recalled the deep delving of the Noldor. Most of the survivors of Eregion lived with Elrond in Rivendell until the end of the Third Age: it was they who reforged Narsil into Andúril.

Zigûr, I did not know you were writing a dissertation on Tolkien. Congratulations! Where? might you tell us when its defense is scheduled? and may we read it when it is published?

[Zigûr]

There are certainly bridges built by the Noldor. The stone bridge over the Narog built at the behest of Turin in Nargothrond is one.
Of course; more good examples.
The stones of Hollin at least recalled the deep delving of the Noldor.
Indeed. The examples are rarer for the Elves, but they do exist.
Zigûr, I did not know you were writing a dissertation on Tolkien. Congratulations! Where? might you tell us when its defense is scheduled? and may we read it when it is published?
Thank you. Once it is finalised and I have graduated I will certainly mention it on the Downs for any interested parties to read.

I am at the University of Sydney. In the Australian system, the thesis is not examined through a thesis defence or viva; instead a process of examination occurs in which three examiners (typically one internal, two external) read the thesis independently and give individual results. The University then gives a final result based on these. I have already passed this process with only emendations required. I am currently completing those prior to final submission and graduation.

Supposedly this is a result of the geographical isolation of Australia, as it would be difficult to get international scholars to agree to attend oral defences, except perhaps from New Zealand. Technological developments might change that in the future. Nonetheless my two external examiners were both international, one being in New Zealand and the other being in the United Kingdom, as I understand it.

Apologies for this bit of off-topic content. As I say, when the final document is available I will mention it here on the Downs.

[Faramir Jones]

I'm glad to read the good news about your doctorate, Zigûr!:D I (and I'm sure others) would be interested in any other news about it, including any conclusions you've come to.

[Faramir Jones]

Zigûr, I agree with you about the existence of 'this curiously common assumption that Elves were averse to manual labour'.

It made me think about the similar assumption that Elves were vegetarian, as shown in the first few seconds of this clip from the first of Jackson's adaptations of The Hobbit, An Unexpected Journey, when Bilbo and the dwarves are in Rivendell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovKDk7ZaXSw

:rolleyes:

[Zigûr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovKDk7ZaXSw

:rolleyes:
Another one of those "assumption" examples where it seems like Peter Jackson needed to put down the Dungeons & Dragons manual (or perhaps the Warhammer army book) and actually pick up one of Professor Tolkien's stories.

Wouldn't it have been so much more original and refreshing in this film if, instead of going for the pop-culture cliché, they had followed the actual book they were meant to be adapting so that the Dwarves were the stuffy aristocratic ones who took themselves too seriously and the Elves were the light-hearted, humorous merrymakers? I suppose Thorin still takes himself far too seriously in the film.

In any event, one can't help but find it bizarre that Professor Tolkien's imitators have so much influence that it creates mistrust in his own stories, such that people are inclined, despite everything, to see his Elves as work-shy posh weirdoes and his Dwarves as drunken Scotsmen in comedy Viking helmets.

[Faramir Jones]

Thanks for the reply, Zigûr!:D While I'm critical of Jackson's adaptations, in terms of his facile joining of elves and vegetarianism I'm saving my annoyance for the people who began that nonsense.:rolleyes:

Also, the request for chips can be said to have some support, Sam Gamgee promising Gollum in LotR that if he continued to behave well, he would cook him some fish and chips.;)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Sindar, being of course the most numerous and representative of western Elves, had all of Metallica's albums. The Noldor, being far more traditionalist, but enamored of 'technology', listened to Sabbath but did so on streaming audio. The Vanyar off in Valinor were a bit out of the loop and still regarded Iron Butterfly as metal. The Silvan Elves naturally listened to Jethro Tull and indignantly insisted "They are too metal!"

[Zigûr]

The Silvan Elves of course listened to Jethro Tull and indignantly insisted "They really are metal!"
My dad must be a Silvan Elf then.

Another rather obvious bridge I've missed is the one in The Hobbit itself that leads into Rivendell, one which appears to be of a defensive nature:
There was only a narrow bridge of stone without a parapet, as narrow as a pony could well walk on; and over that they had to go, slow and careful, one by one, each leading his pony by the bridle.
Incidentally, Dr. Rateliff is curious about this note of Professor Tolkien's after the end of the revised Chapter III:
Ch. III should make clear
Elrond's care for roads etc. from
Greyflood to <Mountains>
Dr. Rateliff finds this difficult because he does not consider there to be a precedent for Elves doing the road work and thinks it unlikely that Dwarves would have been hired to do it as "that solution runs afoul of this text's statement that dwarves were not welcome here [in Rivendell] and did not know this part of the world well."

However he seems to extrapolate a tad; the text simply says "This country was not well known to the dwarves" (previously "unknown to the dwarves" but Professor Tolkien himself realised this was inconsistent with the fact that they traded between the Iron Hills and the Blue Mountains by traversing that region, and so changed the statement) and says of Rivendell "few dwarves have ever seen it."

Dr. Rateliff takes this as meaning that "the dwarves were not particularly welcome at Rivendell", describing it as a "new and somewhat disconcerting idea, apparently imported back into The Hobbit to match the initially chilly relations between Gimli's people and the elves of Lórien in The Lord of the Rings." He observes that Professor Tolkien originally drafted "no dwarf has ever seen it" but changed it.

To me there are a few too many assumptions here; the idea that few Dwarves had seen Rivendell does not seem particularly "disconcerting" to me, as it does not seem to me that there would be much reason for the Dwarves to go there, or much reason for Elrond to compromise Imladris' secrecy by revealing its location to anyone except other Elves, the Wise and the Dúnedain. Surely if there was meant to be a parallel with Gimli's treatment in Lórien the Elves in the revised Hobbit would have been far more secretive, but they are not. I always assumed that the Silvan Elves of Lórien were simply a little superstitious. I find it unlikely that the Noldor of Imladris bore such prejudices given their history of collaboration with the Dwarves. I assume there were some Sindar at Rivendell as well, but nonetheless I think Dr. Rateliff is making the situation more complex for himself than is necessary. It could quite simply be that Elven craftsmen ventured forth, in secrecy, and maintained the roads when necessary.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Given the substantial numbers of Noldor in Rivendell (and the fact that the Sindar were quite capable of masonry when they felt like it), one doesn't have to boggle at Elrond's folk doing their own road maintenance.

[Morthoron]

The Sindar, being of course the most numerous and representative of western Elves, had all of Metallica's albums. The Noldor, being far more traditionalist, but enamored of 'technology', listened to Sabbath but did so on streaming audio. The Vanyar off in Valinor were a bit out of the loop and still regarded Iron Butterfly as metal. The Silvan Elves naturally listened to Jethro Tull and indignantly insisted "They are too metal!"

I must disagree in part. The Silvan Elves started listening to Jethro Tull because of their dealings with the Dwarves, who considered Tull hard rock, of course. Tolkien in a late emendation placed Tull in the metal category, perhaps forgetting about the prior designation. In any case, their defeat of the Sauronian Metallica was eucatastrophic.

[Marwhini]

Just a quick post before I finish reading the rest of the thread:

As someone early in the Thread/Topic observes that Tolkien doesn't say anything about the Elves, or Men of Gondor mining..... And thus we are to "suspect" whether they "mined" for anything.

Yet Tolkien also does not say very much about the Agriculture needed to support the populations involved, nor does he say anything about the populations needed to support the armies he mentions in passing.

Yet if we are examining Middle-earth as if it is an actual Sub-Creation (and thus a Real Place in some Existential Reality), then these sorts of things exist.

We have to constantly be on guard against the Pop-Cultural derivations of Middle-earth (I hear some Kiwi guy made some movies loosely based upon Tolkien's work - One should be cautious when looking at Pop-Culture), and their portrayals as creating stereotypes that deviate from what Prof. Tolkien describes (and there is more in his descriptions than just the words themselves, and their order - those words themselves are clues to other things about Middle-earth).

Tolkien seems to have thought of Middle-earth as a living, breathing world, in which people (Elves, Humans, Dwarves, Hobbits, Orcs, Ents, Dragons, Demons, etc.) lived.

And this means that the Infrastructure of life must also exist within Middle-earth for these people.

MB

[Faramir Jones]

While Tolkien doesn't say much about 'the Agriculture needed to support the populations involved', he does say enough, in my opinion, to hint at the existence of agricuture and communications sufficient to support those populations. In terms of the Shire, he described what it was like before taken over by the hobbits in the Prologue of LotR, and in terms of Gondor, he gave a short description of Minas Tirith's fertile surroundings, particularly the Pelennor Fields, in Book 5, Chapter I.

He went into things in more detail in Letter 154 of 25th September 1954 to Naomi Mitchison:

I am not incapable of or unaware of economic thought; and I think as far as the 'mortals' go, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarfs, that the situations are so devised that economic likelihood is there and could be worked out: Gondor has sufficient 'townlands' and fiefs with a good water and road approach to provide for its population; and clearly has many industries though these are hardly alluded to. The Shire is placed in a water and mountain situation and a distance from the sea and a latitude that would give it a natural fertility, quite apart from the stated fact that it was a well-tended region when they [the hobbits] took it over (no doubt with a good deal of older arts and crafts). The Shire-hobbits have no great need of metals, but the Dwarfs are agents; and in the east of the Mountains of Lune are some of their mines (as shown in the earlier legends): no doubt, the reason, or one of them, for their often crossing the Shire.

I'm always amused when I read this letter; because Tolkien here uses 'Dwarfs' instead of his usual 'Dwarves'.;)

[Alcuin]

We know the Númenóreans mined. They obtained metal for farming and tools, then later for weapons; and the only other place in Arda mentioned to have (ore) loads of mithril was Númenor, so they must have mined for that, too.

Eöl the Smith mined somewhere: this was part of his affinity with the Dwarves, which was unusual among the Elves of Beleriand. His son Maeglin was captured by Morgoth’s servants while he on a scouting expedition for veins of ore. Going back even farther, Fëanor dug a fortress along the mountains of the north coast of Valinor, where he and his father Finwë guarded the Silmarilli. (From whom were they guarding them? Was Fëanor already suspicious of Morgoth, or of his brothers, or the Valar in general?)

As for the Shire hobbits, Pippin told Bergil Beregond’s son that his father “farmed the land around Whitwell”: Pippin was a farmer, too. Maggot was a farmer: it seems most of the hobbits farmed or were merchants or tradesmen regarding farming. (Even innkeepers: their customers were farmers.) We are so far removed from the ways of our near ancestors we forget that only 100 years ago, about four in five people were “farmers”: either they farmed exclusively, or had some trade on the side. Even an innkeeper like Butterbur was likely to have a small plot for growing vegetables and keeping some animals (chickens, a cow, perhaps a pig; and we know he stabled horses).

My grandfather was a skilled carpenter, but he lived on a farm and was primarily a farmer: there was no fulltime work for carpenters. He told me all the builders in the rural area where he lived were farmers, and built only seasonally, between crops, or in an emergency: e.g., after a fire. Even today, of the dozen or so farmers I still know, I can only think of two that are full-time farmers (it’s 14- to 16-hour a day work), and one of those is manager of a farm in New England maintained primarily so the locals can see what life was like only a couple of generations ago. (But don’t get lost in rural Vermont or New Hampshire: “Yah cahn’t get theah frahm heah,” are the first directions a farmer give you. It means you have to go back: Take it in the humor in which it’s offered (usually pretty sharp humor), and ask him how to get to someplace from where you can get there.)

Tolkien remembered and loved a way of life that was vanishing, as he himself mentions in Letters.

[Marwhini]

While Tolkien doesn't say much about 'the Agriculture needed to support the populations involved', he does say enough, in my opinion, to hint at the existence of agricuture and communications sufficient to support those populations. In terms of the Shire, he described what it was like before taken over by the hobbits in the Prologue of LotR, and in terms of Gondor, he gave a short description of Minas Tirith's fertile surroundings, particularly the Pelennor Fields, in Book 5, Chapter I.

He went into things in more detail in Letter 154 of 25th September 1954 to Naomi Mitchison:

I am not incapable of or unaware of economic thought; and I think as far as the 'mortals' go, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarfs, that the situations are so devised that economic likelihood is there and could be worked out: Gondor has sufficient 'townlands' and fiefs with a good water and road approach to provide for its population; and clearly has many industries though these are hardly alluded to. The Shire is placed in a water and mountain situation and a distance from the sea and a latitude that would give it a natural fertility, quite apart from the stated fact that it was a well-tended region when they [the hobbits] took it over (no doubt with a good deal of older arts and crafts). The Shire-hobbits have no great need of metals, but the Dwarfs are agents; and in the east of the Mountains of Lune are some of their mines (as shown in the earlier legends): no doubt, the reason, or one of them, for their often crossing the Shire.

I'm always amused when I read this letter; because Tolkien here uses 'Dwarfs' instead of his usual 'Dwarves'.;)

I am aware of that letter.

It is a rare instance of having given thought to Logistics.

As far as the Shire is concerned, it is an exception in Middle-earth, being an Almost-Modern (Victorian England) realm plopped down into the Archaic World of Middle-earth.

My point was that he does not mention a great deal of things (even within this letter there is a great deal left unstated or unaddressed - One such Example is the Predator-Prey relationship of Middle-earth in terms of the Human/Hobbit/Dwarf/Elf population to the Populations of the Orcs/Trolls/etc. - If you look at such typical relationships, even among omnivorous apex competitor-predators, such as Bears, you find that Middle-earth's population of Humans/Hobbits/Dwarves/Elves isn't large enough to support a Predatory population that he provides of Orcs and Trolls).

But this relates to the general absence of a lot of things that held up his work in his later life, as he was looking more for Generalized Rules (what he referred to as the "underlying postulates" and "...requirement for a coherent Theological and Metaphysical System" - p. x of Morgoth's Ring).

Having had such a System in Place would have allowed the answers to most of these smaller questions to fall into place with no real effort.

The point was that obviously the Elves had complete civilizations that could provide the Logistics for entire cities and countries, even into the Third Age, if on a smaller scale.

MB

[skip spence]

My point was that he does not mention a great deal of things (even within this letter there is a great deal left unstated or unaddressed - One such Example is the Predator-Prey relationship of Middle-earth in terms of the Human/Hobbit/Dwarf/Elf population to the Populations of the Orcs/Trolls/etc. - If you look at such typical relationships, even among omnivorous apex competitor-predators, such as Bears, you find that Middle-earth's population of Humans/Hobbits/Dwarves/Elves isn't large enough to support a Predatory population that he provides of Orcs and Trolls).

Although I agree with you overarching point this example is very odd. The predator-prey relationship between Men/Hobbit etc and Orcs is not explicitly laid out that's true but most probably because none existed. Sure the Orcs are not averse to human flesh if given the chance but to suggest that there should be a finely balanced eco-system where Orcs as the top predators are prowling at the outskirts of society with humans as their preferred prey is preposterous I must say. Seems like their mainstay was agricultural products such as bread, just like it was for Men.

And the Trolls, as described in the Hobbit... they don't really fit in to the latter, more realistic Middle Earth at all, do they? Seems like they come straight out of a Fairy Tale without any regard for a consistent metaphysical of teleological system. Besides, it seems like their mainstay is stealing cattle from farmers or possibly raising them themselves. Cooking a bunch of Dwarves was obvious a novelty for them.

[Faramir Jones]

I agree with skip here, Marwhini, in that while I agree with your overarching point, the example you gave was odd.

While there are indications that Orcs ate human flesh, and had no problems with doing so, I don't think we have enough information to indicate that they did this on a regular basis.

I would disagree with you, skip, in terms of the eating habits of the trolls in The Hobbit. You thought that 'it seems like their mainstay is stealing cattle from farmers or possibly raising them themselves. Cooking a bunch of Dwarves was obvious a novelty for them'.

If we look at the book, we first hear and see, from Bilbo's point of view, the three trolls eating mutton and drinking beer. However, one, Tom, is complaining about not having eaten 'manflesh' for a long time, criticising another, William, for bringing them into those parts. William pointed out to Tom and Bert, the third troll, that they ate 'a village and a half' between them, since they came down from the mountains. It's quite clear that they also eat, and have eaten, men.

Tolkien then said that Bilbo should have tried some good quick burgling, or else have told the dwarves that there were three trolls 'in a nasty mood, quite likely to try tosted dwarf, or even pony, for a change'. To men, we can add that trolls like to eat dwarf, as well as pony. Their liking for dwarves is later confirmed; because when Tom saw Balin, he gave 'an awful howl', the reason being that 'Trolls simply detest the very sight of dwarves (uncooked)'.:eek::smokin:

To be fair to the trolls, they are quite prepared to try new things, in terms of agreeing to eat a hobbit. Later, after the trolls have turned to stone, and their cave found, Bilbo, Gandalf and the dwarves find 'bones on the floor and a nasty smell was in the air', and also find 'lots of clothes', Tolkien telling us they belonged to the trolls' victims.

It's therefore quite clear from what we read that those trolls like eating humans, dwarves, possibly ponies, and are prepared to eat hobbit. While they are prepared to eat sheep and possibly pigs, they seem to prefer beings on two legs. They might, like the pigs in Animal Farm, agree with the slogan, 'Four legs good, two legs better'.

[skip spence]

It's therefore quite clear from what we read that those trolls like eating humans, dwarves, possibly ponies, and are prepared to eat hobbit. While they are prepared to eat sheep and possibly pigs, they seem to prefer beings on two legs. They might, like the pigs in Animal Farm, agree with the slogan, 'Four legs good, two legs better'.
Haha you are quite right of course. Haven't read The Hobbit in ages.

Having read the Lord Of The Rings within memory's grasp I can't help but wonder into what parts Bill, Bert and Tom strayed earlier to find such plentiful game. The lands West of the Misty Mountains seems all but empty of people in the latter book. Maybe the trolls ate 'em all.

[Inziladun]

Having read the Lord Of The Rings within memory's grasp I can't help but wonder into what parts Bill, Bert and Tom strayed earlier to find such plentiful game. The lands West of the Misty Mountains seems all but empty of people in the latter book. Maybe the trolls ate 'em all.

Well, it was said that Dwarves still traveled the Great East Road fairly regularly, and maybe even the Dúnedain were occasional prey of the trolls. I seem to recall Aragorn's grandfather being killed by them.

[Faramir Jones]

You're right, Inziladun. According to The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Arador was 'taken by hill-trolls in the Coldfells north of Rivendell and was slain'.

[Marwhini]

Although I agree with you overarching point this example is very odd. The predator-prey relationship between Men/Hobbit etc and Orcs is not explicitly laid out that's true but most probably because none existed. Sure the Orcs are not averse to human flesh if given the chance but to suggest that there should be a finely balanced eco-system where Orcs as the top predators are prowling at the outskirts of society with humans as their preferred prey is preposterous I must say. Seems like their mainstay was agricultural products such as bread, just like it was for Men.

And the Trolls, as described in the Hobbit... they don't really fit in to the latter, more realistic Middle Earth at all, do they? Seems like they come straight out of a Fairy Tale without any regard for a consistent metaphysical of teleological system. Besides, it seems like their mainstay is stealing cattle from farmers or possibly raising them themselves. Cooking a bunch of Dwarves was obvious a novelty for them.

That Orcs depended upon agricultural products means they had to get them somewhere.

If they grew them themselves, then they needed a lot of land on which to do so. While Mordor had the fertile lands of Nurn to feed them, this is not the case for the Hithaeglir.

I bring this up because it was things exactly like this with which Tolkien struggled in his later days, looking specifically for the rules by which the world operated (for which this would be one).

And Orcs do not need to be capturing and eating people to make them predators. That isn't what I meant by that relationship.

Their relationship with all of civilization is that of a predator, who preys upon "Civilization" itself (ruining it, in some fashion).

The manner in which it "Ruins" civilization is secondary.

For instance: Cuckoo Birds have the same Predator:Prey relationship as do raptors like Hawks, Owls, and Eagles with their Prey.

Except the Cuckoo Bird isn't preying upon the other birds to eat them. It is preying upon them to raise their young.

The Cuckoo isn't exactly what you would call a "Parasite" either. But Parasites tend to have similar relationships in populations as do Predator:Prey populations.

And the Orcs fit into a similar relationship with Elves, Hobbits, and Men. They Prey upon the civilization itself, whether taking time to replace things simply destroyed outright, or in replacing things stolen, or people killed, or kidnapped.

Tolkien did not want Middle-earth to be simply a "Fairy Tale."

At the end (from the 1950s onward), he was looking specifically for the "underlying postulates" that formed a "coherent theological and metaphysical system." (p. x of Morgoth's Ring). Those words imply that he needed things to have an explanation for How they worked, and not just that they existed within Middle-earth. They needed a reason to explain their existence, and a means by which they operated (a Metaphysical Explanation).

MB

[Marwhini]

Haha you are quite right of course. Haven't read The Hobbit in ages.

Having read the Lord Of The Rings within memory's grasp I can't help but wonder into what parts Bill, Bert and Tom strayed earlier to find such plentiful game. The lands West of the Misty Mountains seems all but empty of people in the latter book. Maybe the trolls ate 'em all.

This is one of the problems Tolkien seemed to be trying to explain in his later days.

One possible solution is that the lands were occupied, just not with a sufficient number of people to form a collective civilization of any kind.

For instance, we know that the Dúnedain still existed into at least the thousands in the Third Age (The minimum to retain a genetic viability). That would mean at least one or two significant settlements, at least.

And that the Dúnedain were outnumbered by Men in the area... So the rest of the Population of Arnor was not wholly destroyed, but certainly diminished beyond an ability to form any type of State, or collective aid. We did see areas like this in Europe at various times, especially after some of the various Plagues that swept through Europe.

So taken that the Trolls mentioned a "Village and a half" in regions far to the North in Eriador, we can expect that scattered villages existed throughout the region... They are just not brought into the stories, especially not The Lord of the Rings as the entire trip through Eriador was made with the intention of avoiding all observation (save for the stop in Bree). So... They would have avoided all known established settlements or villages in Eriador, which I imagine Gandalf and Aragorn would have been especially aware of.

Outside of Eriador, we do see pretty significant settlement of humans. It is likely that Dunland is an example of how occupied the rest of North Western Middle-earth is. There are enough disparate villages to support a population of a few hundred thousand (In all of Eriador), which makes it roughly 1/10th the Population density of Europe during the Middle-Ages at its lowest population (which contained only a few million people - I cannot remember which Black Death it was that caused the deaths of almost ⅔ of the population, but it left Europe nearly "Vacant" as far as population goes).

And we know that in the northern valleys of the Anduin that the people of Beorn had multiplied to populate that region. And Dale had re-established itself as a sizable realm.

MB

[skip spence]

Come on man, you are much too serious, I'm sure Tolkien would tell you the same.

I guess the problem is you are too sure of yourself.

I mean... We all know that Tolkien was a tinkerer, he was trying to make everything fit together as the world grew and was enrichened. Which is why I said that Bill and Bert and Tom don't really fit into the latter, more developed Middle Earth, for some of the reasons you've touched, I understand that.

It's just, your reading that Orcs are some allegoric Alfa-preditor of our society is a bit much really.

EDIT. I do enjoy your speculation though, so please take no offence! :)

[Zigûr]

We know from The Hobbit that the Orcs of the Mountains used slaves for their manufacturing purposes:
"Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light."

Perhaps they produced food in the same way, although it's unclear to me where they would have found the land for such agriculture. But one imagines they could not have maintained their extensive, if petty, realms in the Misty Mountains and the Grey purely by raiding the Woodmen and so on.

We do know, however, that "sometimes used to go on raids, especially to get food or slaves to work for them." So perhaps they partially relied on raiding and partially had some subsistence of their own devising. But it does not appear that the Orc-raids, at least insofar as they are depicted in The Hobbit, were altogether regular.

[Nerwen]

That Orcs depended upon agricultural products means they had to get them somewhere.

If they grew them themselves, then they needed a lot of land on which to do so. While Mordor had the fertile lands of Nurn to feed them, this is not the case for the Hithaeglir.

I bring this up because it was things exactly like this with which Tolkien struggled in his later days, looking specifically for the rules by which the world operated (for which this would be one).

And Orcs do not need to be capturing and eating people to make them predators. That isn't what I meant by that relationship.

Their relationship with all of civilization is that of a predator, who preys upon "Civilization" itself (ruining it, in some fashion).

The manner in which it "Ruins" civilization is secondary.

For instance: Cuckoo Birds have the same Predator:Prey relationship as do raptors like Hawks, Owls, and Eagles with their Prey.

Except the Cuckoo Bird isn't preying upon the other birds to eat them. It is preying upon them to raise their young.

The Cuckoo isn't exactly what you would call a "Parasite" either. But Parasites tend to have similar relationships in populations as do Predator:Prey populations.
Actually cuckoos *are* generally considered to be parasites. They practise a nesting strategy known as "brood parasitism", with victim species being the "hosts".

Anyway, what is the "similar relationship"? Do you mean the fact that ultimately both predators and parasites are dependant on their victims and thus can't afford to wipe them out? Or what?

And the Orcs fit into a similar relationship with Elves, Hobbits, and Men. They Prey upon the civilization itself, whether taking time to replace things simply destroyed outright, or in replacing things stolen, or people killed, or kidnapped.
So your point is that Orcs subsist *entirely* by plundering other species? Is there a source for that?

[Marwhini]

Haha you are quite right of course. Haven't read The Hobbit in ages.

Having read the Lord Of The Rings within memory's grasp I can't help but wonder into what parts Bill, Bert and Tom strayed earlier to find such plentiful game. The lands West of the Misty Mountains seems all but empty of people in the latter book. Maybe the trolls ate 'em all.

This is one of the problems Tolkien seemed to be trying to explain in his later days.

One possible solution is that the lands were occupied, just not with a sufficient number of people to form a collective civilization of any kind.

For instance, we know that the Dúnedain still existed into at least the thousands in the Third Age (The minimum to retain a genetic viability). That would mean at least one or two significant settlements, at least.

And that the Dúnedain were outnumbered by Men in the area... So the rest of the Population of Arnor was not wholly destroyed, but certainly diminished beyond an ability to form any type of State, or collective aid. We did see areas like this in Europe at various times, especially after some of the various Plagues that swept through Europe.

So taken that the Trolls mentioned a "Village and a half" in regions far to the North in Eriador, we can expect that scattered villages existed throughout the region... They are just not brought into the stories, especially not The Lord of the Rings as the entire trip through Eriador was made with the intention of avoiding all observation (save for the stop in Bree). So... They would have avoided all known established settlements or villages in Eriador, which I imagine Gandalf and Aragorn would have been especially aware of.

Outside of Eriador, we do see pretty significant settlement of humans. It is likely that Dunland is an example of how occupied the rest of North Western Middle-earth is. There are enough disparate villages to support a population of a few hundred thousand (In all of Eriador), which makes it roughly 1/10th the Population density of Europe during the Middle-Ages at its lowest population (which contained only a few million people - I cannot remember which Black Death it was that caused the deaths of almost ⅔ of the population, but it left Europe nearly "Vacant" as far as population goes).

And we know that in the northern valleys of the Anduin that the people of Beorn had multiplied to populate that region. And Dale had re-established itself as a sizable realm.

MB

[Inziladun]

Marwhini, looks like you just reposted your #47. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpost.php?p=704760&postcount=47)

[Marwhini]

Come on man, you are much too serious, I'm sure Tolkien would tell you the same.

I guess the problem is you are too sure of yourself.

I mean... We all know that Tolkien was a tinkerer, he was trying to make everything fit together as the world grew and was enrichened. Which is why I said that Bill and Bert and Tom don't really fit into the latter, more developed Middle Earth, for some of the reasons you've touched, I understand that.

It's just, your reading that Orcs are some allegoric Alfa-preditor of our society is a bit much really.

EDIT. I do enjoy your speculation though, so please take no offence! :)

They aren't an Allegory, nor are they an Alpha-predator.

They are simply a predatory species, one of many, which happen to coexist alongside man. Technically they are a mixed-predator, where some of their sustenance comes from predation, and some through self-production (but that still does not correct the problem).

As for taking this "too seriously..."

Tolkien tended to do that himself. In addition to p. x[I] of [I]Morgoth's Ring there are half a dozen places in Letters where he talks about the Sciences Internal to Middle-earth, and that these would be just as discoverable as those in our world.

Tolkien admitted his ignorance in these areas. But that doesn't mean those of us who are not ignorant of those Sciences cannot then look to see how they might function given the quote on p. x[I] of [I]Morgoth's Ring. We needn't be IN Middle-earth to do this, any more than we need to be ON an exoplanet to begin learning things about its composition (or any one of thousands of other means of indirect observation and Science).

The simple fact is:

Orcs have to eat. Orcs need to build houses. Orcs need to have children.

These take resources. Those resources take space to produce (space that we have objective measure of, and can predict what we would see given a certain type of population).

As for being "Sure of myself...."

Well... No... I am sure of the numbers I have. But I remain very unsure of many aspects lacking others who are formally trained in the specific sciences who are also as familiar with Tolkien. And, unfortunately, the few who are currently have so little time to devote to it (Such as Dr. DJ Lundt, who did an excellent Meteorological Study of Middle-earth - yet after speaking to him about it, we discovered that he had two major flaws in his study that would have affected localized weather patterns, or generalized weather patterns should the Valar have intervened; as they did in a few events).

Currently, all I have at my disposal who have a science background of some sort (whether hard or soft) is a Medical Doctor who specializes in Genetic Pathologies (helpful for how Morgoth could have managed to affect or corrupt existing species to create the "monsters), a collection of Zoologists, Ornithologists, and Biologists at a couple of Zoos in the USA to help with habitat and population distributions (which includes humans), a Physicist, who only has a couple of days every few months to work on problems dealing with some very esoteric aspects the nature of matter and energy in Middle-earth, and...

Myself, who has formal training in Art History & Comparative Religions and Myths (having studied with Joseph Campbell in the 1980s - this covers Theology, Myth, Sociology, Anthropology, and Religious History), as well as more recent training in the Cognitive Sciences, and Computational & Systems Biology (both interdisciplinary fields, which cover from Linguistics, to Computer Science, Biology, and Neuroscience - The latter of these fields is called "Cybernetics"). I do not yet have a graduate degree in these, as I had to drop out my senior year at UCLA due to old injuries I have causing severe health problems that could still cost me my legs. Otherwise... I would not have the time to devote to this study, and would instead be up to my elbows in epithelial cells and intestinal linings (I was studying how to create synthetic intestines, and gut-tissue).

The goal we are looking for is a Unified Theory to explain Middle-earth, and the associated specific disciplines that would explain its structure. We have a working theory, explained in another post.

As I said in the post no one seems to want to pay any attention to. A LOT of people tend to either not understand what this means, and thus they either simply reject it, or they miss the relevance of certain issues.

MB

[Marwhini]

And I am aware of what Cuckoos are.

My little-sister is an Ornithologist. We do not call Cuckoos outright parasites, because they are not preying directly upon a host-animal. But the behavior of the Cuckoo is parasitic in nature. It is stealing resources from a system that are not the results of its efforts.

The technical term is a "Brood-Parasite:"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brood_parasite

And, no, my point isn't that Orcs subsist solely by plunder, but that plundering is a vital aspect of their character, as is simple mindless destruction (whether they make use of that which they destroy or not).

Nor are they entirely mutually dependent, as is a Cuckoo (The Cuckoo needs the prey population, in the same way that a leech or mosquito needs prey populations. Without them, they cannot reproduce). The Orcs can reproduce without humans, as indeed this is their goal (to wipe them out, and/or enslave them).

But both prior to achieving the goal of Enslaving humanity (or wiping them out), they exist in a relationship as that of predator-prey (We saw that in other human cultures that preyed upon other humans: Pirates, Slave-traders, and Nomadic Warbands).

And whether they are stealing from the humans, elves, and hobbits, or simply destroying infrastructure, that theft needs to be replaced, or accounted for by the prey of the Orcs.

This means that there is a minimum sized population of Humans, Elves, and/or Hobbits that would be required to:

1) Remain alive, and sustainable (even if dwindling, there are relationships that predict the rate of decline, or the rate of growth, or simple equilibrium of the population).

2) Support a given population of Orcs.

These are two different functions.

In the first case, it has to do with an Orc population causing damage to a Human, Elf, and/or Hobbit society, and the letter's ability to recover from it.

And in the second case, it has to do with a Human, Elf, and/or Hobbit population being large enough to support a given Orc population.

This is a Feedback System (and there remain other "nodes" in the system; both those for which I have not yet accounted, and those for which I have accounted - such as the availability of Wild Game, which would affect both Human, Elf, and Hobbit populations, AND the Orc populations).

It is a little difficult to illustrate a Feedback System in text, as they look a little like a computer flow-chart or Neural Network Diagram, but with numbers in the lines connecting nodes to indicate the strength of the relationship, and how it impacts another node.

So, as a sort of simplified Feedback System.

Men <3/1–1/2> Orcs

This would be a simplified feedback system indicating that it takes three Men to support one Orc in two given populations (one of Men, one of Orcs), and that two Orc tends to result in the death of One Man in the process. The first numbers in each set describing the first relationship, and the second number in each set represents the second relationship. You could break this down into two one-way relationships:

3 Men –> 1 Orc
1 Man <– 2 Orcs

But just the basic generalized knowledge we currently have about similar relationships between groups shows that the Human (or Elf, and/or Hobbit) population in Middle-earth would need to be larger than is indicated.

There are suggestions that Tolkien was aware of this in a few of the Letters he wrote concerning the creation of the Map for the LotR not having anywhere near the needed settlements and other details that would have existed, and that it ONLY contained the details relevant to the action within the Book, and a general overall geography.

If I were not in a hospital at the moment, I could reference the letters, as I marked them up for other research I am doing on Physiognomy in Middle-earth, yet much of the information seems applicable here as well.

MB

[Nerwen]

Thank you Marhwini, but I specifically referred to "brood parasitism" by name in my previous post. Therefore it should be clear that I know what it is. [And the very article you link uses the specific terms "parasite" and "host", as do all the more technical articles I have read, so I'm not sure what the quibble is over.]

Moving on.

Isn't this all pure conjecture and assumption on your part? You have no actual data, right?

[Marwhini]

Just as a Start:

http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange1/current/lectures/predation/predation.html

The Lotka-Volterra Equations detail a rather detailed relationship between types of predation, of both predator and prey-populations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka–Volterra_equations


And aside from the Generalized Lotka-Volterra Equations, there is the issue of Mutualism between a predator and prey population when modeling the population sizes and relationships:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(biology)#Mathematical_modeling

In the latter example, this is where the two populations share one or more traits, or functions in the environment.

All of these are dependent upon a Carrying Capacity of the Environment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity

...and the Lotka-Volterra Equations show the interrelationships of these Carrying Capacities.

Also important is the "Impact of Human Activity on the Environment" described by Dr. Paul Erlich's I = PAT equations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_%3D_PAT

In terms of Middle-earth, this is a very important term, as that of Humanity and Elves (or Hobbits) needs to be greater than that of Orcs, lest you wind up with a world where the Orcs quickly destroy the Carrying Capacity of the entire "planet" (or habitable regions of the world with which we are concerned).


I = PAT

is:

Impact = Population * Affluence * Technology

In Middle-earth, this impact is nearly non-existent save for in the regions of:

• The Shire.
•*Dale/Erebor
•*Mordor
•*Gondor
•*Rohan
•*And likely in Harad and Rhûn as well, since we are told these areas are fairly highly populated.

But given that 'A' and 'T' are so low, the Impact isn't very great, and thus the effect upon Carrying Capacity isn't hugely affected (which is not to say that it is not affected at all - over time the Impact can be cumulative).

I=PAT, though, can really only be significantly considered once you have an idea of GDP of an area.

This can be estimated in Middle-earth based upon Medieval Data about what was required for a typical person to live, and then estimating the populations of the regions based upon the population models created by the Lotka-Volterra models

Do you need anything else?

If you have your own Foundational Postulates and Coherent Metaphysical and Theological Systems upon which Middle-earth operates, please feel free to elaborate.



MB

[Marwhini]

And, as a point about some of the assumptions of the Lotka-Volterra Models.

It is possible to including Initial Conditions for different assumptions.

Such as that the Prey Population does not have an exponential Population Growth, and instead has some other function that covers population growth.

These starting conditions affect the total population sizes of both the Prey and Predators.

In the Competitive and Mutual models, we can also show relationships where both populations prey upon each other (many Aquatic populations are like this, as are human populations, to which the models also apply).

Edit: Parasitic relationships can be different than Predator-Prey, depending upon the type of Parasite. For instance Mosquitos can have populations that are hundreds of billions the size of their host populations.

And it may be the case that we need to build an entirely new model for the relationship between Orcs and Humans than the existing Predator-Prey model.

But the existing Mutualistic or Competitive Models seem to be flexible enough to deal with the relationship we see between Orc and Human in Middle-earth, where the two Populations are Mutually dependent upon a single set of resources, Yet compete for those resources, while Humanity largely falls Prey to Orcs (a relationship that does not exist in reverse - Humans, Hobbits, nor Elves in Middle-earth will capture Orcs to use either as forced labor, or as a source of food itself).

This is an area where we have yet only looked at a very generalized relationship, as it is a long way down our list of priorities in getting an Operationalized Middle-earth functioning as a Model.

MB

[skip spence]

Marwhini,

While I remain sympathetic of your quest for a unified theory to explain Arda and Middle Earth I hope you realize that the result can only be another work of fiction, unlike say the mathematics of Pythagoras, or the physics of Newton or Einstein's special theory of relativity.

Much like you, many of us here enjoy speculation in how Middle Earth 'worked'. The first and foremost Tolkien scholar and son, Christopher, shared this interest and thanks to his work we have a lot of intriguing material apart from his father's published work. It's fascinating to look at the "white spots" of the maps and imagine what you might find there.

In our real world scholars and scientists, kings and commoners used to do they same. They knew there had to be "something" out there beyond their knowledge, they wanted to learn and understand, but in lack of solid data they used their imagination to fill the unknown. Often they populated the imaginary lands with strange legendary beasts, like unicorns, pygmees, satyrs, dragons etc of course overseen by the mighty Gods. But slowly and surely the white spots of this world have been charted and now we know much more about its nature and natural laws, enough to disprove most of the historical misconceptions.

But unlike the real world we live in Middle Earth is fictional. The white spots on the maps of Middle Earth are unknown, but unlike in the real world there is really nothing there to be found.

Except in the mind and imagination of the reader. A fun pass-time I think, and one that JRRT embraced fully, but please don't forget that your "unified theory of Arda" can never have any relevance in relation to JRRT's actual creation. It is not natural science, only a product of your own imagination and if that is to be of any interest to other readers I suggest that you approach it in a more humble and, well, reasonable manner.

[Morthoron]

If you have your own Foundational Postulates and Coherent Metaphysical and Theological Systems upon which Middle-earth operates, please feel free to elaborate.

*Blinks*

*Blinks again*

Ummm....

And now for something completely different:

Excerpt from Monty Python's Two Towers --

Chapter II: The Rally of Rohan

By now they had made their way into the realm of Rohan, the verdant, rolling land of revisionist Anglo-Saxon horsemen who would have defeated William the Bastard and his nasty Normans at Hastings if, by Tolkien's Francophobic approximation, King Harold and his housecarls had had a standing cavalry; thus, the Anglo-Saxon aristocracy would have remained in England to subjugate, overtax and generally make miserable the lives of the peasantry, rather than have foreigners do the same more efficiently. In any case, the Three Hunters crested a hill and below them lay a green valley where they espied the first sign of trouble. Hundreds of protesters were milling about carrying placards and signs (most of which had X and O symbols, or spatters of paint mimicking writing, as very few folks were literate at the time). The mob was listening to the exhortations of a rather unkempt demagogue trying to rally the masses with his shrill oratory. Stealthily, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli scrambled down the goat paths that scarred the hillside, and then mingled with the crowd in order to hear what the fuss was all about.

"A spectre is haunting Dunland," the shaggy speaker shouted through a megaphone of sheepskin, "the spectre of Rohirrism!"

"Wha's a spectre?" One old gaffer asked a shrewish hag standing next to him.

" 'Ow should I know?" The shrew replied. "Just quit yer yammerin' an' wave yer sign! I've 'eard they'll be 'andin' out prizes for the most enthusiastic demonstra'ors."

"All the old powers, that of Gondor and Rohan, have entered into an unholy alliance to quench the bright flame of Liberty lit for the Dunlendish people," the orator bellowed with contempt. "Where is the party that would oppose these reactionary adversaries?"

"Yes! Yes! The party!" several oblivious protesters cried. "Where is the party?"

"To this end, the Executive Administrators of the Council of Propaganda and Pasturage, duly endowed with plenipotentiary powers by the General Secretary for Bureacratic Affairs, were sanctioned to form the first Revolutionary Constitutional Congress of DUFF, the Dunland United Freedom Fighters. And by the gracious invitation of Saruman, both of them gathered at Orthanc and completed a Manifesto!"

"Wha's a manifesto?" the geezer wheezed. "Is tha' an Eye-talian dish? Sort 'o' like Manicotti, but wi' pesto?

"I should 'ope so," the hag replied, "I'm starvin'!"

"The history of society has been one of class struggle!"

"Ye got 'at roight, guv'nor," a shepherd shouted. "I aint ne'er made it past first grade, wha' wi' conjugatin' verbs 'n' danglin' me par'iciple at recess!"

"Freeman and slave, lord and serf, in other words, oppressor and oppressed, have continually opposed one another in a nearly uninterrupted fight that each time has ended badly for we, the mute masses. There has been no revolutionary reconstitution of society at large for us - on the contrary, it usually resulted in the utter victory of them what has, as opposed to them what has not. Now Dunland sits alone in chains of degradation; but, at the turn of fortune's wheel, we can become the oppressors and the hated Forgoil of Rohan the oppressed! We can become that which we hate!"

"This is, like, so-o-o-o boring!" a teenage girl whined.

"Like, we should have so gone to the mall," her BFF chimed in.

"I wish they'd serve the manifesto," the gaffer grumbled. "Me tummy's rumblin'."

"To that end, we shall join with Saruman the White, our sorcerous friend and benefactor, who has offered us his wizardly assistance in ridding Dunland of the hated horsemasters. Join us now! Join us in this righteous rebellion! We may be casting off one master for another even more tyrannical despot; but he has such a pleasant, fatherly way of making our gullibility seem noble - almost intelligent. Besides, we shall get a brief glimmer of freedom before our hopes are ruthlessly crushed, which is all we peasants could possibly expect at this juncture in history, given the inadequate means of mass communication only made possible by the printing press, which will not be available, technologically speaking, until the time of Herr Gutenberg. But enough of anachronistic platitudes, what say you, people of Dunland? Shall we fight for freedom, however short-lived?"

There was a prolonged, dumb silence punctuated by sneezing, rheumy wheezing, lip smacking and tubercular coughs. The speaker sighed in defeat. Despite his best efforts and his Ciceronian dialectical rhetoric, he felt he was losing the mob. And so, as with all demagogues past and present, he decided to plumb the depths and cater to the crowd's basest emotions. "Of course, there will be other benefits…" he said with a polished smile.

"Wha' benefits?" the old hag shouted.

"Yes, yes, what's in it for me?" A one-eyed, legless beggar cried as he shifted nervously on his stumps. "Please, I can't stand the suspense!"

"And when do we get our manifesto?" the grizzled geezer grumped. "Will it be at th' party you was mentionin' earlier?"

…"There will be rape and pillage."

And there was a great cheer that arose from the throng, and they immediately fell into beating each other with cudgels, staffs and canes.

"NO, NO, NO!" the orator shrieked through his megaphone. "I was referring to raping and pillaging the people of Rohan!"

"O-o-o-oh!" the bloodied crowd cried in unison and stopped their infighting, except for one stout shepherd who punched the shrewish hag again for good measure.

"Now, I want the folks to my left to start right in on the raping, and the ones on my right to go off and pillage."

"Well, why can't we just do both?" the shepherd shouted in dismay, his staff clinched tightly in his left hand and his other staff now gripped firmly in his right.

The speaker gave the suggestion some thought and then finally shrugged. "Sure, why not!"

The mob screamed in a blood-curdling frenzy and scattered off in all directions to practice their raping and pillaging skills, leaving the Three Hunters alone in the valley.

[Marwhini]

Marwhini,

While I remain sympathetic of your quest for a unified theory to explain Arda and Middle Earth I hope you realize that the result can only be another work of fiction, unlike say the mathematics of Pythagoras, or the physics of Newton or Einstein's special theory of relativity.

Of course it would be a fiction, because it is being used to describe things that cannot exist in this universe.

But that does not negate that this was a singular goal of Tolkien's, nor that such a thing is possible.

It would not be as "complete" as a completely Unified Theory (as we have no means to test it).

But Tolkien was pretty clear about Middle-earth having operational Sciences that could basically describe its workings, even if he could not.


In Letters #153 to Peter Hastings (draft), Tolkien says:

I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological.

Here he is referring specifically to how Elves are "Immortal," yet essentially the same biological Species as Humans (and thus capable of breeding with them to produce fertile offspring).

– which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them too much). Elves and Men are evidentially in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring –*even as a rare event : there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil. But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within the limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' –*not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' –*and Men metal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World –*and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, and that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'aging' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum of my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incomplete imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.

As with most of the Sciences here in our world, what Tolkien called the "Primary World," we don't actually need to have direct access to something to derive from it scientific facts about it.

Generally, observed behavior is enough, given the breadth of our current physical knowledge, to begin to understand its physical structure and operation.

We need only the same things for Middle-earth, fictional or no, to get an idea of how it must operate, given what we know about it, and about physics (and thus chemistry and biology, etc....), whether it is "Fictional" or not.

If, in a book, we observe someone fall roughly 20 feet, and the book says that it took roughly half a second to fall, we can infer that gravity in the world described by that book is roughly the same as in ours.

If it is observed to be different, then we can calculate it with some precision based upon how it is described.

Much like you, many of us here enjoy speculation in how Middle Earth 'worked'. The first and foremost Tolkien scholar and son, Christopher, shared this interest and thanks to his work we have a lot of intriguing material apart from his father's published work. It's fascinating to look at the "white spots" of the maps and imagine what you might find there.

In our real world scholars and scientists, kings and commoners used to do they same. They knew there had to be "something" out there beyond their knowledge, they wanted to learn and understand, but in lack of solid data they used their imagination to fill the unknown. Often they populated the imaginary lands with strange legendary beasts, like unicorns, pygmees, satyrs, dragons etc of course overseen by the mighty Gods. But slowly and surely the white spots of this world have been charted and now we know much more about its nature and natural laws, enough to disprove most of the historical misconceptions.

But unlike the real world we live in Middle Earth is fictional. The white spots on the maps of Middle Earth are unknown, but unlike in the real world there is really nothing there to be found.

Except in the mind and imagination of the reader. A fun pass-time I think, and one that JRRT embraced fully, but please don't forget that your "unified theory of Arda" can never have any relevance in relation to JRRT's actual creation. It is not natural science, only a product of your own imagination and if that is to be of any interest to other readers I suggest that you approach it in a more humble and, well, reasonable manner.

The "It's just fiction" deflection?

If that is the case, then any speculation regarding Middle-earth is just as misguided.

One of the blurbs in the Jacket cover of the first edition of The Lord of the Rings described it as "First Rate Science Fiction."

"Fantasy" is just a derivative of "Science Fiction." It is just proposing different laws of the Sciences.

And by the quote above, of Tolkien's... The world functions by the rules of the "Natural Sciences" as much as does ours, only with deviations from them, which are just as knowable (within the evidence we have) as they are in our world.

MB

[Nerwen]

Just as a Start:

http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange1/current/lectures/predation/predation.html

The Lotka-Volterra Equations detail a rather detailed relationship between types of predation, of both predator and prey-populations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka–Volterra_equations


And aside from the Generalized Lotka-Volterra Equations, there is the issue of Mutualism between a predator and prey population when modeling the population sizes and relationships:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(biology)#Mathematical_modeling

In the latter example, this is where the two populations share one or more traits, or functions in the environment.

All of these are dependent upon a Carrying Capacity of the Environment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity

...and the Lotka-Volterra Equations show the interrelationships of these Carrying Capacities.

Also important is the "Impact of Human Activity on the Environment" described by Dr. Paul Erlich's I = PAT equations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_%3D_PAT

In terms of Middle-earth, this is a very important term, as that of Humanity and Elves (or Hobbits) needs to be greater than that of Orcs, lest you wind up with a world where the Orcs quickly destroy the Carrying Capacity of the entire "planet" (or habitable regions of the world with which we are concerned).


I = PAT

is:

Impact = Population * Affluence * Technology

In Middle-earth, this impact is nearly non-existent save for in the regions of:

• The Shire.
•*Dale/Erebor
•*Mordor
•*Gondor
•*Rohan
•*And likely in Harad and Rhûn as well, since we are told these areas are fairly highly populated.

But given that 'A' and 'T' are so low, the Impact isn't very great, and thus the effect upon Carrying Capacity isn't hugely affected (which is not to say that it is not affected at all - over time the Impact can be cumulative).

I=PAT, though, can really only be significantly considered once you have an idea of GDP of an area.

This can be estimated in Middle-earth based upon Medieval Data about what was required for a typical person to live, and then estimating the populations of the regions based upon the population models created by the Lotka-Volterra models

Do you need anything else?

If you have your own Foundational Postulates and Coherent Metaphysical and Theological Systems upon which Middle-earth operates, please feel free to elaborate.



MB
Thank you for elaborating, but as I said, Marhwini, I'm afraid all you've got there is assumption and conjecture. Equations tell you nothing if you have no numbers to plug into them in the first place.

And no of course I don't have any Foundational Postulates or Coherent Metaphysical and Theological Systems upon which Middle-earth operates. C'mon, mate, you are taking yourself, and the subject, far too seriously.

X'd with Marhwini.

[Nerwen]

Marhwini, speculation about Middle-earth is not misguided- it's what the site's for!

Confusing your speculations with fact is very misguided indeed.

[Morthoron]

Marhwini, speculation about Middle-earth is not misguided- it's what the site's for!

Confusing your speculations with fact is very misguided indeed.
Magic talking troll purses are evidence of sophisticated voice recognition security devices indicative of troll's highly advanced software developments in the late 3rd Age. It is believed that descendents of trolls eventually created the internet.

[Marwhini]

Thank you for elaborating, but as I said, Marhwini, I'm afraid all you've got there is assumption and conjecture. Equations tell you nothing if you have no numbers to plug into them in the first place.

And no of course I don't have any Foundational Postulates or Coherent Metaphysical and Theological Systems upon which Middle-earth operates. C'mon, mate, you are taking yourself, and the subject, far too seriously.

X'd with Marhwini.


We have numbers to plug into them (We have Tolkien's estimates for a population of Hobbiton, Gondor, and Rohan; and we have even more precise numbers given in the sizes of the military forces for Gondor and Rohan, which have very specific ratios for an Army:Population for any given period of time - just as a start).

At the very least those are some pretty good estimates.

And we have other estimates we can derive from the size and distances of various settlements.

And there are reasons for "taking this too seriously" (as you put it) that have to do with modeling it as an operational virtual world.

That is more than just turning it into a game (which isn't our intention).

And to do that, you need to have an idea of how things work.

I am taking it no less seriously than did Prof. Tolkien.

MB

[Marwhini]

Marhwini, speculation about Middle-earth is not misguided- it's what the site's for!

Confusing your speculations with fact is very misguided indeed.

I am not confusing them for fact.

I am simply pointing out that a means of deriving answers for Middle-earth that do not produce contradictions exists.

And that this seems to be what Tolkien was trying to achieve.

That he could not do so does not mean that it isn't possible.

MB

[Marwhini]

Magic talking troll purses are evidence of sophisticated voice recognition security devices indicative of troll's highly advanced software developments in the late 3rd Age. It is believed that descendents of trolls eventually created the internet.

What was that about Trolls?

It's pretty easy to mock something that you don't understand (or are trying very hard to dismiss, and thus not understand).

Because if you did understand what I had proposed, you'd understand what Talking Purses for Trolls were in terms of The Hobbit (or at least the options available for what was going on with the Trolls).


MB

[skip spence]

*Blinks*

*Blinks again*

Ummm....

And now for something completely different:

Excerpt from Monty Python's Two Towers --

...

Haha lovely stuff Morth! :D I have missed this place.

As for Marwhini, just do what you wanna do I guess. *shrugs*

[Kuruharan]

It is believed that descendents of trolls eventually created the internet.

Trolls certainly seem to be the ones who use it the most...

[Morthoron]

What was that about Trolls?

It's pretty easy to mock something that you don't understand (or are trying very hard to dismiss, and thus not understand).

Because if you did understand what I had proposed, you'd understand what Talking Purses for Trolls were in terms of The Hobbit (or at least the options available for what was going on with the Trolls).
MB

I am aware that a talking purse is a folkloric motif Tolkien inserted to add whimsy (complete with a lowbrow accent) to a scene. I am also aware it played no part cosmologically, ontologically or allegorically to any larger, integrated system of science Tolkien was allegedly contemplating in an effort to make his story 'whole'.

I also know that the statement:

"If you have your own Foundational Postulates and Coherent Metaphysical and Theological Systems upon which Middle-earth operates, please feel free to elaborate."

is perhaps the single most pompously sententious sentence ever typed on any Middle-earth forum since the World Wide Web was first developed by descendants of Shelob and Bert the Troll's great-great-great grand nephew, Timmy.

This is the second time you've indicated that I "don't understand" the speculative palaver you're shoveling; on the contrary, I know conjecture when I see it, even when it is couched in rococo verbosity, and more so when these proclamations from the mount are offered in episodic sermons for we lesser mortals.

[Marwhini]

I am aware that a talking purse is a folkloric motif Tolkien inserted to add whimsy (complete with a lowbrow accent) to a scene. I am also aware it played no part cosmologically, ontologically or allegorically to any larger, integrated system of science Tolkien was allegedly contemplating in an effort to make his story 'whole'.

I also know that the statement:

"If you have your own Foundational Postulates and Coherent Metaphysical and Theological Systems upon which Middle-earth operates, please feel free to elaborate."

is perhaps the single most pompously sententious sentence ever typed on any Middle-earth forum since the World Wide Web was first developed by descendants of Shelob and Bert the Troll's great-great-great grand nephew, Timmy.

This is the second time you've indicated that I "don't understand" the speculative palaver you're shoveling; on the contrary, I know conjecture when I see it, even when it is couched in rococo verbosity, and more so when these proclamations from the mount are offered in episodic sermons for we lesser mortals.

And I'll say it a third time:

If you don't understand the point of what I have been talking about, then I don't suspect you ever well.

Nor do I suspect that you will understand a great deal of what Tolkien was trying to do in his later works, either.

Because what I am doing is a continuation of what he was doing: Looking for a Coherent Foundation for his world.

Brushing it off a "Fiction" is more than a little missing the point. There is a Logical Consistency that Tolkien was trying to obtain that was more than just Logical Validity, but was Logically Sound as well, within Middle-earth.

And that might very well be a pompous statement I made.

But it is a direct paraphrase of a Quote of Tolkien's, as to what he was trying to achieve from the years following the Completion of The Lord of the Rings until his death.

Tolkien's world had rules. Like ours. And they are not arbitrary rules. They abide by Sciences just like our world does.

He said so. MANY, MANY TIMES.

And just like I do not need to be ON an Exoplanet to begin studying its composition:

http://seagerexoplanets.mit.edu/research.htm

I don't need to be IN Middle-earth to discover most of these rules (if not all of them).

Nor does anyone else.

But the fact that I seem to be the only person (here, at least, as I have worked with at least three other people who worked at the same thing) interested in exploring what they might be is more than a little surprising to me.

That people seem to think that the events in Middle-earth (even if fictional) are simply an arbitrary arrangement is puzzling.


MB

[Marwhini]

Haha lovely stuff Morth! :D I have missed this place.

As for Marwhini, just do what you wanna do I guess. *shrugs*

That is my plan.

I hadn't much hope that anyone would understand the issues I am trying to address to begin with.

It would be nice to have a bit more help in creating a detailed Foundation for the Operation of Middle-earth than the current Four of us (and I am currently the only one with much time to spend on it, while the fake bone in my leg grows into the real one).

And when I can regularly walk again, it will be back to studying Intestinal Villi and Oligosaccharides and Glycoproteins.

It is difficult to find people with a strong enough Science background to begin with, much less a deal of Interdisciplinary Study as well.

And while that isn't necessary to Enjoy Tolkien's work, it is important in figuring out how Middle-earth would function were it an actual place (what would necessarily be True if Middle-earth existed as described).

We have worked out the basic Philosophical/Theological/Metaphysical Structures that would be True if Middle-earth was an Instantiation of some sort (i.e. "It existed"). But getting the varying specifics is a tedious lot of work.

Fortunately, having the basic Foundation allows for much of the rest to simply fall out of the workings. It is exploring these for any more complex interactions or Contradictions that is the hard part (not being able to actually set up functional experiments is a bit of a draw-back).

Eventually Wolfram Research will have a World Modeling (other than Mathematica and Wolfram|Alpha - which could be used if I wanted to spend 5 to 10 years hard-coding the physics) tool that will allow for simulating such experiments. But Stephan Wolfram has said they are about 5 years from having the basic structure set up, much less an API that would allow for the addition of other Physics to operate within the Simulations and Models as well.

MB

[Inziladun]

And while that isn't necessary to Enjoy Tolkien's work, it is important in figuring out how Middle-earth would function were it an actual place (what would necessarily be True if Middle-earth existed as described).

I'm all for theorizing about Middle-earth matters Tolkien took for granted, as long as those posited ideas are in line with what he say about his world.

At the end of the day though, Middle-earth is a fictional world very similar to our own. It's different enough though, with the open presence of the supernatural, that purely scientific analysis of it is, in my opinion, a lost cause. And dear Gandalf had that saying about not breaking a thing to find out what it is...

[Marwhini]

I'm all for theorizing about Middle-earth matters Tolkien took for granted, as long as those posited ideas are in line with what he say about his world.

That is kind of my point


At the end of the day though, Middle-earth is a fictional world very similar to our own. It's different enough though, with the open presence of the supernatural, that purely scientific analysis of it is, in my opinion, a lost cause. And dear Gandalf had that saying about not breaking a thing to find out what it is...

Fictional or not, the "Supernatural" is explainable given the assumptions Tolkien makes about the world.

Nor does it make it a lost cause. That it is similar to our own world provides a starting point.

Thus the quote I provided earlier from Tolkien regarding Biology within Middle-earth.

Nor does it need to be "Broken" to find out what it is.

No more than one needs to "break" an Exoplanet to discover what the Atmosphere is composed of, nor to discover its mass, even though the Closest of the Exoplanets yet discovered is roughly a dozen Light Years away (Gliese 15Ab - Gl 15Ab: 11.7LY - and most are hundreds of LY from Earth).

I get the feeling people are actually afraid to ask these questions.

That the "Supernatural" exists within Middle-earth, as I have pointed out elsewhere, simply means that something other than Baryonic Matter exists within Middle-earth; that there exists some-thing... some "stuff" that is not composed of normal molecules that we find in our Universe, yet is just as capable of affecting normal "molecular matter" (Baryonic Matter) as is molecular matter.

Anyone familiar with René Descartes, Augustine, or with the Early Gnostic Christians will be able to provide an answer for what this "Stuff" might be (To say nothing of the Manichaeans, Bogomils, Cathars, etc.).

From that point, it just becomes a matter of looking at the different ways in which this stuff manifests, and interacts with regular matter.

And, we know that it is just as convertible to energy as is Matter (See the Fire Gandalf creates on the side the Redhorn Stair in the snow). We know from this same incident that this conversion to energy somehow is observable by others. And we know that it is not simply limited to this one instance.

That gives quite a few observations from which to derive possible mechanisms, given what we do know about physics, the Enthalpy/Gibbs Free Energy of wet Wood, etc. for just that one instance.

We also have things such as Glorfindel's appearance at the Bruinen, Gandalf's Lightning on Feathertop/Amon Sûl, The Balrog (and Gandalf's Battle with it - twice), The flaming "Mane" of the Balrog, The "Shadow" of the Balrog (and possible "wings"), a litany of things within Lórien, a litany of things concerning Saruman (or Sauron, for that matter), Gandalf rescuing Faramir (twice), the operation of the Palantíri, the disintegration of Saruman's body, The "Bodies" of the Nazgûl, . . . and I am certain others as well... And that is JUST from The Lord of the Rings.

If we look in the other works, we can find similar things with which there are known components.

And, as Tolkien said.... The "Sciences" exist within Middle-earth. You just need to account for what you would observe within it, and the study of it is no less "worthwhile" than it would be for our world, only the products/discoveries would apply only to Middle-earth.

Some of it might be "conjecture" in that we cannot formally test it.

But that is no different than much of our own universe (we cannot test Quantum Theory, either, yet we know without a doubt that the products of Quantum Mechanics produce predictable, reliable results that are more precise than many things we can test), much of which is "Conjecture."

But that doesn't stop the study or examination of it.

MB

[Morthoron]

And I'll say it a third time:

If you don't understand the point of what I have been talking about, then I don't suspect you ever well.

Nor do I suspect that you will understand a great deal of what Tolkien was trying to do in his later works, either.

You mistake a disinterest in listening to prolix peregrinations with an inability to comprehend said maundering.

You don't know me, or what I know, and you probably never will. Unlike you, I don't find it necessary to bolster my sagging self-esteem by making statements like "I was weaned on Joseph Campbell's teat." Just because you saw him in a bookstore signing autographs for The Power of Myth in the 80s holds no fascination for me. If I wish to indulge in dry monomyth wrangling and broken paradigms, I'll merely pick up my copy of The Hero with a Thousand Faces.

I simply find your repetitive desiccated theorizing tedious, and anti-Tolkien, relatively-speaking. I shall expound further below.

Because what I am doing is a continuation of what he was doing: Looking for a Coherent Foundation for his world.

You are not Tolkien, sir. You do not follow in his footsteps, nor do you continue his work. Because you lack his humanity, his conversational skills, and you are devoid of his humor. Dry toast needs a pat of butter. You, sir, need some butter.

But the fact that I seem to be the only person (here, at least, as I have worked with at least three other people who worked at the same thing) interested in exploring what they might be is more than a little surprising to me.
That people seem to think that the events in Middle-earth (even if fictional) are simply an arbitrary arrangement is puzzling.

You are an island, an island no one wishes to visit; rather, like Devil's Island, where the shackled residents wish to escape.

[Nerwen]

Marhwini, as I said what you are doing is fine if you treat it as a game or a curiosity or an academic exercise, understanding that there can never be a true, final answer in the absence of an underlying reality. Even if you do manage to come up with an internally consistant model, you can't test it against a reality that isn't there.

That's the difference between Middle-earth and an exoplanet.:p

Plus, a lot of your theorising is of the card-castle variety- a fantastical, elaborate and ingenious structure built on a foundation so flimsy it would topple at a breath of air. I know it doesn't look that way to you, but that's because, in my opinion, you're not sufficiently objective about your own ideas to either critique them properly yourself or allow others to do so.

Which brings me to this:

It would be nice to have a bit more help in creating a detailed Foundation for the Operation of Middle-earth than the current Four of us (and I am currently the only one with much time to spend on it, while the fake bone in my leg grows into the real one).

And when I can regularly walk again, it will be back to studying Intestinal Villi and Oligosaccharides and Glycoproteins.

It is difficult to find people with a strong enough Science background to begin with, much less a deal of Interdisciplinary Study as well.
What's your intention in all this? *Are* you asking for our help or input? Are you actually interested in sharing ideas? Because honestly, you just seem to work from the basic assumption that you already possess Total Knowledge on All Subjects Whatever, and that the rest of us are Ignorant Peasants who should be Grateful that you Condescend to Enlighten us with your Vast Ineffable Wisdom. <--Yes, I'm mocking your posting style, but I'm doing it in order to help you see why you're getting increasingly negative responses. That's not what you want, right?

That said, please do understand that I bear you no ill-will, that I am very sorry to hear about your serious injury and that I wish you a speedy recovery.:)

[Marwhini]

Marhwini, as I said what you are doing is fine if you treat it as a game or a curiosity or an academic exercise, understanding that there can never be a true, final answer in the absence of an underlying reality. Even if you do manage to come up with an internally consistant model, you can't test it against a reality that isn't there.

Yes and no.

We have no ABSOLUTE Foundational Theory for the universe in which we inhabit now.

And much of the Theory upon which it rests is wholly untestable unless we find some way to get outside of it.

But this does not mean that we do not have a whole system of Philosophy, Metaphysics, and Sciences that support the ability to make consistent predictions about our reality, or to understand how almost everything within our universe works that is not either:

• Very Massive.
•*Very Fast (and thus very massive).
• or Very Small.

Once you get into these realms, the bottom (or top) races away from you.

But within the Mesosphere (the "Middle World"), you have the Life we see around us, and a System of Physics, Chemistry, and Biology (and Genetics, Social Sciences, History, etc.) that grows directly out of these.

And out of the Reductionistic Sciences grow the Systems Sciences.

These, in our universe are based upon what is known as "Monistic Materialism."

There is a small clustering of other Philosophical designations that also include the basic Sciences we see in our world, and the predictions and observations that are accounted for by these Sciences.


But within Middle-earth.... Monistic Materialism isn't enough.

There is Something else.... Mainly because Tolkien was a Catholic, and like a good Catholic, he believes in God, Angels, Saints, Demons, The Devil (Tolkien was a Pre-Vatican II Catholic. The Devil wasn't some metaphorical or allegorical entity - How many people know that this is one of the reasons Tolkien hated Allegory so much? You have to go to CS Lewis to discover this, though), Souls, Heaven, and Hell (among other things). But Tolkien's beliefs are not a necessary component to creating a world in which property dualism is true. Anyone can create one.

Tolkien's beliefs are important because they are largely reflected in his creation of Middle-earth.

And... Some account for HOW a "Soul" WORKS needs to be accounted for. Because we see that the Fëa (what Tolkien called the "Souls" of things in Middle-earth) has a PHYSICAL EFFECT upon the world.

And when you have a physical effect upon the world, that means that whatever it is that Tolkien is calling "The Soul/Fëa" is affecting the molecules, or "Matter" that is in Middle-earth.

In fact, we can even calculate the bare minimal interaction of this effect.

Gandalf lights a bundle of wood on the side of Caradhras.

Lighting Wood on Fire takes Energy.

We can calculate EXACTLY how much energy if we know what kind of wood it is, and an approximate energy given just a list of possible wood types they might have had available in Alpine Foothills (Pine, Cedar, Spruce, Aspen, Larch, Birch, Yew, etc.).

Wood burning is a chemical reaction. It is the sugars in the wood (Cellulose, Sucrose, and Fructose, all of which are combinations of Glucose) oxidizing.

In fact, we have the formula:

C6H12O6 + 6(O2) → 6(CO2) + 6(H2O) + Heat + Light

Technically the formula for the Cellulose is:

2(C6H10O5)_n + 11(O2) → 6(CO2) + 10(H2O)

But the final results are fairly the same, and there is a LOT of math coming up




First Gandalf has to raise the temperature of the wood he is going to light from roughly 0ºC to 500ºC (the ignition temperature for cellulose). We can calculate that amount of energy with great specificity if we wanted to get down to actually looking at what it takes to light wet-frozen wood down to the conditions of how much water it has absorbed per cubic volume, how it was carried, etc.

But we can estimate the amount of energy to a very high degree of confidence just with some rough guesses.


The Energy to raise the Temperature of the Wood from 0ºC to 500ºC, is easily computed for 1kg of wood.

This is a simple equation: Q = cmΔT

Q is the Heat Added
c is the Specific Heat of the Substance (for the Sugars in the wood burning, it is 218.7 J/K•mol (joules per ºKelvin times moles))
m is the Mass of substance (guessing about 1kg would be needed to create enough energy to keep the entire thing burning)
ΔT is the change in temperate celsius.


So, for getting the temperature raised to 500ºC, which is needed to even complete the above Gibbs Free Energy calculation, you need to have:

Q = (218.7J/ºK•mol)(1kg)(500ºC - 0ºC)

Convert ºC to ºK, so that our Temperature will cancel in the equation (Simply add 273.15 to ºC to get ºK):

Q = (218.7J/ºK•mol)(1kg)(773.15ºK)

Now cancel the mass (convert 1kg of wood to mols of Glucose - To get the grams per mol of Glucose: C (12) * 6 + H (1) * 12 + O (16) * 6 = 174g/mol or 1mol/174g of Glucose, and Wood is roughly 80% Cellulose, so 800/174≈4.6mol)
and cancel like terms

This gives us:

Q = (218.7J)(4.6)(773.15)

Or.

Q = 775.315kJ

That's a LOT of freaking energy that had to come from someplace to just raise the temperature of the wood, to say nothing of getting it lit.

For getting it Lit, that is essentially it's Heat of Enthalpy (Gibb's Free Energy):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_free_energy

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wood-combustion-heat-d_372.html

Burning wood is an Exothermic Reaction.

Yet it requires an "Activation Energy/Enthalpy" to begin the reaction.

For Sugar (Glucose - the stuff in wood that is reacting), that is -2805kJ/mol.

<<Edit>>: I forgot the link to the ΔH (Heat of Combustion) of Cellulose:

https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Activation+Energy+of+Glucose&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#q=enthalpy+of+combustion+sugar

<</edit>>

Continuing....

Since we are talking about LIGHTING the fire, that "-2805kJ/mol" is how much you have to dump into the wood to get it lit (Or, rather... It takes 2,805 kiloJoules/Mol just to get the reaction started).

We saw above that 1kg of wood is basically 4.6mols of Glucose.

So that is:

2805(4.6)kJoules

Or 12,903 kiloJoules.

So....

We now have Gandalf producing roughly 13,678kJ to light a fire.

That's a pretty significant amount of energy.

We can go even further with this to give that a mass-equivalent with Einstein's formulas...

That's the difference between Middle-earth and an exoplanet.:p

That isn't much of a difference.

We know that Energy had to come from somewhere.

Even saying "Magic" does nothing to answer the question. All it does is NOT answer the question, but defiantly refuses to even address the question.


Plus, a lot of your theorising is of the card-castle variety- a fantastical, elaborate and ingenious structure built on a foundation so flimsy it would topple at a breath of air. I know it doesn't look that way to you, but that's because, in my opinion, you're not sufficiently objective about your own ideas to either critique them properly yourself or allow others to do so.

Which brings me to this:


So be my guest to point out how Gandalf, or anyone, can light a fire without introducing some form of energy into the equation?

We know that Gandalf's energy he produces isn't from a source we would call "Material" (even though ultimately this is what it is. At this point it is just playing with definitions), but rather from someTHING ELSE. Tolkien calls it the "Fëa."

Gandalf somehow turns his Fëa into Physical Energy (and we see this in more additional instances than I could rattle off here without writing an actual book - not that I nearly haven't already).


What's your intention in all this? *Are* you asking for our help or input? Are you actually interested in sharing ideas? Because honestly, you just seem to work from the basic assumption that you already possess Total Knowledge on All Subjects Whatever, and that the rest of us are Ignorant Peasants who should be Grateful that you Condescend to Enlighten us with your Vast Ineffable Wisdom. <--Yes, I'm mocking your posting style, but I'm doing it in order to help you see why you're getting increasingly negative responses. That's not what you want, right?

If you demonstrate an understanding of the concepts.... Then yeah... Help would be good.

And... the "Total Knowledge...."

Nope...

But one needn't have total knowledge of a subject to recognize a wrong answer.

You do not need to know Ordinary Differential Equations to know that the Answer to:

dx/dt = x - 1

ISN'T: "Horse"



In the Sciences, and most of Academia, that is called "Not even wrong."

A Wrong answer would be something like:

"5" or "x = 1"
(the actual answer is x(t) = c e^t + 1).

And if I come off a little weird here, it might be because many of the responses I am seeing are looking to me like someone has responded with "Horse" to many of the posts I have made.

That isn't saying that "Horse" isn't the right response to something that you are thinking that I said.... But it isn't really responding to the underlying foundation of the claims I have made.

It tends to make me wonder what people's definitions of "Metaphysics" are.

And, yes... I am socially Clumsy.... I tend to be used to working with Academics and people in the Sciences (or Social Sciences - less so).

I am trying to figure out what might be missing from this explanation to illuminate it a bit better..... But I seem to have had poor luck in that regard.

And Fiction or No, Tolkien worked to try to discover the rules by which his creation would work (again: p. x of Morgoth's Ring) so that the things that occurred in Middle-earth would:

1) Have a REASON that they worked (that is to say: HOW they functioned)
2) Did not contradict themselves or other aspects of his world.

That this is a Fictional World actually aids in accomplishing this, because we can postulate rules that don't exist in this world. But the trick is to make them consistent with what we DO KNOW EXISTS (either for Our Universe, or for Middle-earth, which uses the same Physical Template, over which additional assumptions have been Layered by Tolkien.... Of course, this isn't that hard - especially with Google, these days).

We don't need an experiment, because we can dictate outcomes that align with what we do know to be true, plus what NEEDS to be True (within Middle-earth) for some event, action, or item to exist, or operate/function.

That said, please do understand that I bear you no ill-will, that I am very sorry to hear about your serious injury and that I wish you a speedy recovery.:)

Thank you, it is no fun to have 1-1/2 legs.

MB

[Formendacil]

Marhwini, I think there are couple things about your pursuit of a Unified Theory that are ruffling our collective feathers, and it seems to me worth it to pursue them:

1. Tolkien's work is art. There are things within his books that take place not because it fits within a specific physics or metaphysics, but because it is artistically appropriate. The sciences most appropriate for analysing The Lord of the Rings is and will remain aesthetics, form criticism, or philology.

Tolkien definitely aimed for verisimilitude--most writers do and especially those writers who say things like "I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers." I certainly agree that thought was put into the "behind the scenes" mechanics of Middle-earth. Where I disagree is in thinking that these can be definitively revealed.

Perhaps the most apparent way of stating this part of the problem has already been made by Morthoron: how do you reconcile a Talking Purse in the Possession of Trolls to your Unified Theory?

2. And a major part of the reason for this is that Tolkien changed his mind about things! Middle-earth only exists or has a definitive form insofar as he gave it one. It's one thing for Tolkien to decide that a certain metaphysic must apply--if anything contradicted it, he was able to change it. But for the rest of us who can only study matter, what are we to do when there are competing traditions? Was Arda flat at one point? What is the nature of the stars that Varda made?

Tolkien had the freedom to reject concepts AND to completely modify texts to fit new theories. We see this especially with his linguistics (since, of course, this was the field he was most interested in), but we also see that he had a profound respect for anything that he'd already published: note how he dropped the whole "problem of -ros." And, of course, he'd forget he decided something now and again without specifically writing out that he'd done so, so you're looking at a dubious metric in using "whatever his latest opinion was."

Basically, you can't have a Unified Theory without first establishing which texts are permissible to admit as evidence, and you can't do that unless you first establish what is canon.

It may be somewhat ancient history now, but we on the Downs have fought many wars over Canonicity before (here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10593) is but one major example), and you first need to demonstrate there is a clear, unmistakable canon before you can start deriving anything approaching definitive conclusions.




To be perfectly clear, I *like* the idea of exploring some of the metaphysical or physical ramifications of Arda-as-Revealed, but it always has to be approached with the same sort of attitude as approaching a contrafactual question like "what if Melitot Brandybuck found the One Ring?": you can base it on evidence, make a clear and compelling case, but you cannot PROVE it.

[Marwhini]

While Tolkien's work might be "Art" it does not dismiss the statements made by Tolkien himself (see where I have quoted them above in the thread more times than I can now count) that there are Operational Rules (Sciences) within Middle-earth that are just as robust and rigorous as are our Sciences in this world.

As for how do you reconcile a Talking Pursue?

There are dozens of different ways to reconcile a talking purse.

Formost among them is that The Hobbit is a story that Bilbo crafted to tell other Hobbit Children, and that the event with the Trolls has been Bowdlerized to make it amusing to the Children, and not the terrifying experience it might have been.

There are other Mythological alternatives that can explain a Talking Pursue as well.

As I already pointed out, Having the world based upon Sciences does not preclude what we call "The Supernatural," as the whole attempt is to reconcile that and TO EXPLAIN IT. It means that we need to just look at what would need to be true within Middle-earth for the events, items, people, places, etc. to behave as we see them behave.

The rest of your post is based upon a misconception of what is being attempted, based upon the above point.

Not to mention not understanding that we have an Identical Problem with our own Universe, where conflicting theories and narratives tend to prevent this very thing.

As I said above, that Middle-earth is a fiction works to our advantage, not against us.

MB

[Marwhini]

Also...

SCIENCE DOES NOT 'PROVE' THINGS!

There is no 'Proving' in the Sciences.

Proof is for Mathematics and Formal Logic.

Not that this makes any difference.

In my post above I illustrated, complete with the math required, how we can derive very specific facts about things within Middle-earth.

MB

[Morthoron]

As for how do you reconcile a Talking Pursue?

There are dozens of different ways to reconcile a talking pursue.

Formost among them is that The Hobbit is a story that Bilbo crafted to tell other Hobbit Children, and that the event with the Trolls has been Bowdlerized to make it amusing to the Children, and not the terrifying experience it might have been.


First, it's purse, p-u-r-s-e, not "pursue".

You could pound a square peg into a round hole and claim "The Hobbit is a story Bilbo crafted to tell other Hobbit Children"; however, there is nothing anywhere in Tolkien's notes to indicate it was Bowdlerized, and you would be back to mere speculation. We know Tolkien didn't care for the naming conventions of the three Trolls (and he names "William" in particular), but then he didn't care for the names of all the Dwarves in the story either (and Gandalf to boot), borrowed as they were from the Völuspá. But he did edit out any number of anachronisms from The Hobbit, yet he chose to keep the talking purse in and never mentioned it again as anachronistic or out of character or too whimsical.

But if, as you speculate, the story was Bowdlerized, and since we know that Bilbo lied about the Ring at one point, doesn't that call into account the veracity of the story as a whole? How many elements were changed to meet the mythical audience you created with your conjecture? Is there a list of things you believe could not occur to fit in your stilted theory? If that's the case, it cannot be considered "canon" in the truest sense, and we must toss aside The Hobbit as unfit for your divine plan.

And how do Trolls have an intrinsically magic item that is beyond their obvious ability to craft? Did they steal it from Ye Old Coach Purse and Majicks Shoppe? It is a unique item, unlike any other described in the Tolkien corpus. Does it work on solar power? D'oh! No, forget that idea. Thorin mentions "magical toys" his forefathers' created that were now out the Dwarves' ken to create. Yes, one is left with conjecture - it could be one of many manifestations (it may even have a soul :eek:). The enigmatic. The unexplainable. The supernatural. These have a place in Tolkien's fantasy. Just like the "express train" that passed through Bywater one evening.

There are other Mythological alternatives that can explain a Talking Pursue as well.

I have already described in a previous post the talking purse as a folkloric motif, which it is, and Tolkien would have recognized it as such (hence, it's inclusion). But Tolkien always leaves one guessing. He guessed quite often himself, and never came to a specific one-size-fits-all, end-all-be-all, all-in-all-we're-just-another-brick-in-the-wall conclusion about many things. Tom Bombadil, for instance, who he specifically named an "enigma". And since Tolkien is dead, you will never come to a conclusion about some things, which is fine and part of the allure of the tale. Take Trolls, for instance. Tolkien wrote in Letter 153:

I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeit', and hence (though here I am of course only using elements of old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested. Of course since my world is highly imperfect even on its own plane nor made wholly coherent...when you make a Troll speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'. But I do not agree (if you admit that fairy-story element) my Trolls show any sign of 'good', strictly and unsentimentally viewed.

Let's see: "I am not sure", "I think", "using elements of old barbarous mythmaking", "other origins are suggested", "my world is highly imperfect", "[not] wholly coherent", "probably", "if you admit that fairy-story element", etc. That's quite a bit of conjecture by the Professor about his own story. And you have the temerity to say you will continue his work? That, my dear, it what is called fan-fiction, and invariably it suffers when compared to the original.

As I already pointed out, Having the world based upon Sciences does not preclude what we call "The Supernatural," as the whole attempt is to reconcile that and TO EXPLAIN IT. It means that we need to just look at what would need to be true within Middle-earth for the events, items, people, places, etc. to behave as we see them behave.

What legitimate science accepts the Supernatural or the enigmatic? Oh, I know, when you bend and warp science to make an artificial synthesis of a fiction novel. Rather like Joseph Campbell's tortured attempt to cram every story into his Hero's Journey one-size-fits-all mold. If Tolkien did not explain it while he was alive and writing, how can you then force it into your precepts without making crap up? Educated guesses are guesses with a thesaurus. Again, fan-fiction, no matter how high the temperature it takes to burn cellulose. One could just as easily say Gandalf possessed a Ring of Power, imbued with fire, which he set his pine cones ablaze with, and you wouldn't be wrong...or right, for that matter. Gandalf may also have used gunpowder, as in the cave against the Orcs (which would also explain the "devilry of Saruman" and the explosion at Helm's Deep).

The rest of your post is based upon a misconception of what is being attempted, based upon the above point.

Not to mention not understanding that we have an Identical Problem with our own Universe, where conflicting theories and narratives tend to prevent this very thing.

Don't worry, Formy, he's insulted 5 or 6 different people on this forum in like manner already, reminding us of our ignorance. Whatever.

[Marwhini]

That would be an exact example of what I am talking about being "Not even Wrong."

It would be one thing if you could communicate a correct description of what I have been attempting to resolve within Tolkien's work, and then criticized it.

But I have yet to see even an attempt to understand the goal, or what it entails, much less any criticism that actually applies to what I am (or, rather, "We") are attempting to do.

You are addressing things that have nothing to do with the actual goal, or endeavor.

Nearly every reply has been of the nature: "Horse" when the question is:

"What is the Solution to dx/dt = x + 1 ?"

If you cannot even effectively communicate what the problem set is describing, how do you hope to even recognize an answer, much less formulate one that isn't simply an accident?

As to "insulting people..."

I have done no such thing.

If someone is attempting to understand the goals that we have in this project, and communicating what they THINK is being done, then they are never going to reach an understanding of what is being attempted if their misconceptions are not pointed out.

That would be like trying to learn history, or math without ever having any of your knowledge corrected when you have a wrong answer.

And I might be horrifically socially clumsy in that regard.

But that in no way changes the fact that someone who has failed to understand the goal and process here has failed to understand the goal and process.

They might take offense at having this pointed out. But that would be rather like being offended when told that 1+1 ≠ 7. Especially if one intended to discover the correct answer to the problem of 1 + 1 .



MB

[Nerwen]

Marhwini, I find it encouraging to see that you've laid off Capitalising Things.;)

Now look, you speak constantly of SCIENCE! and allude frequently to having an academic background of some kind, yet, as I've said earlier, it seems to me that you have a deep emotional attachment to your project such that you are unable to evaluate it, or even discuss it, in a manner which remotely approaches being "scientific". For you, there can be no discussion: your ideas must be right, and so you assume anyone who disagrees is simply ignorant and unable to understand what you're saying, and therefore in need of "correction". It seems to me, further, that you are reading at most a few lines of others' posting, before responding with your walls of text + wiki links + equations, whereas a closer examination might reveal to you that we understand perfectly well what you're getting at. We just think you're wrong. Your inability to accept this is what's causing you to come across to many as arrogant and insulting, even though I'm sure that's not your intention.

One thing I am curious about, though- and forgive me if this is something you've explained already- what do you ultimately intend to do with your project? Do you intend to publish it in book form? As an article? Or what?

[Marwhini]

Marhwini, I find it encouraging to see that you've laid off Capitalising Things.;)

Now look, you speak constantly of SCIENCE! and allude frequently to having an academic background of some kind, yet, as I've said earlier, it seems to me that you have a deep emotional attachment to your project such that you are unable to evaluate it, or even discuss it, in a manner which remotely approaches being "scientific". For you, there can be no discussion: your ideas must be right, and so you assume anyone who disagrees is simply ignorant and unable to understand what you're saying, and therefore in need of "correction". It seems to me, further, that you are reading at most a few lines of others' posting, before responding with your walls of text + wiki links + equations, whereas a closer examination might reveal to you that we understand perfectly well what you're getting at. We just think you're wrong. Your inability to accept this is what's causing you to come across to many as arrogant and insulting, even though I'm sure that's not your intention.

One thing I am curious about, though- and forgive me if this is something you've explained already- what do you ultimately intend to do with your project? Do you intend to publish it in book form? As an article? Or what?


OK.... If you think this "idea" so insane....

In one sentence describe to me what the idea is.

I can.


Or, if you cannot do it in one sentence.... How about just ANY description of what I am talking about that actually IS what I am talking about, and not something that you THINK I am talking about.

Because if you cannot even accurately describe the goal, how is it that you can know what is right/wrong with it?


MB

[Marwhini]

As for what we intend to do with it.

I think I have mentioned that only a couple of dozen times.

But so that it isn't lost:

We are working on building an Operating Virtual World of Middle-earth.

And, before you run with that, NO It isn't that kind of "Virtual World."

The correct term (for the project in its current state) would be a "Toy World," which is used in Systems Theory to describe simplified Models of Feedback Systems.

So, for example:

An Ant Pile.

To make a Virtual Model of an Ant Pile, you don't start off making a lot of Computerized Graphics of Ants that people then put on some huge, clumsy VR Visor (Like an Oculus Rift visor).

It starts off as a purely Computational Model where the input and output are purely mathematical models and raw data. You have "Ants" that are described by a simple data-set (size, role, location, age, gender, etc), and you have an environment that is also described by a data set (tunnels, openings, fungus farms, location of the queen, eggs, location of distant food sources, predators, etc.).

<<edit>> And you have a system of relationships between each connected element of the system that describes that relationship. For example:

•*The amount of food eaten by each ant, and where it comes from.
•*The effect of the immediate environment by the ant's presence.
• The effect of the environment upon predators, or the effect of the presence of predators upon the ants.
•*Etc.

<</edit>>

For Middle-earth, we would start with something similar. We already have the physical environment up to the end of the Second Age as generalized Data Models, and a topology for a "Flat-World" that produces a constant 1g, downward, orthogonal to the entire surface of the "Earth" (It is a pretty freaking strange shape, and depending upon other possible models, we have different topologies, depending upon whether Fëa has mass or not).

Eventually this raw data will be fed to some form of a visualization system that begins to produce things that people would actually recognize as Middle-earth.

And, as computational power increases, and the Systems Modeling Tools grow in power, we can then connect them to better visual processing systems (and hopefully, by that time (roughly 2025 - 2030) to actual experiential Interface Systems that would allow people to have a nearly immersive experience within Middle-earth (i.e. to be able to "feel" like they were actually inside Middle-earth).

The latter is going to sound kind of Matrix-y, but it isn't considered far-fetched for the time-frame we have. People like Larry Page, Ray Kurzweil (both at Google - One the founder, the other the Chief of Engineering) has both said that the time-frame we are looking at is appropriate for both the modeling and the perceptual interfaces to the model.

So.... That is what we plan to do with it.

Considering we (People working in Systems Modeling and Systems Theory) can get other non-deterministic Systems Models to behave in a Fatalistic Fashion (arrive at a pre-determined outcome, even with stochastic/random behavior of all the elements in the System), then it should not be difficult to arrange for a Model World of Middle-earth to be Instantiated such that it unfolds as described by Tolkien (at least for those parts described).

That is what we plan to do with this once we get a working System and Foundation for the Metaphysical Functioning and/or Operation of Middle-earth.

MB

[Marwhini]

Addendum:

Although that isn't to say that I can't populate the earlier models with Graphics. It is just that between the time we get the Math working, the graphics technology is likely to have changed substantially. People I know at Autodesk say that current projects are returning to the concept of Voxels as the building blocks of future graphics rather than the polygonal models, surface models (NURBs, Subdivision, Parametric Curve) and Solid Models (Procedural, Parametric). The Voxel is basically a graphic equivalent of a 3D (or higher dimension) particle, rather than depicting a surface, as current graphics do, it represents a volume. So given that the technology to visualize the data is likely to change substantially, and that we want to have models that function properly first, starting off with the graphics (for the purposes of this project) isn't productive.

Graphics is one of the things I learned a LONG time ago, given that when I was younger my focus was more on the Arts, and I was lucky/fortunate enough to have a computer in the late-70s.

But even though we don't need to start with Graphics for this project, since I happen to like drawing, painting, and doing 3D work (As well as sculpting miniatures), I figure it would not hurt to play around with simple depictions of the different peoples when I am not able to work on other things (or when I need a break from other stuff).

A 3D model of a Hithaeglir Orc/Goblin (without texture/color - This is a digital sculpt meant to be used for a Miniature):

[Galadriel55]

•*The amount of food eaten by each ant, and where it comes from.
•*The effect of the immediate environment by the ant's presence.
• The effect of the environment upon predators, or the effect of the presence of predators upon the ants.
•*Etc.

Yes, I agree. Elves certainly had some of their own supply of metal, albeit not as large as that of the Dwarves, and they most likely traded for the rest with their neighbours (especially with Moria). Their mines were not as large as those of the Dwarves, and their production was not as high. It's also possible they simply did not reveal the locations of their mines to those who didn't explicitly need to know.

[Formendacil]

Actually... I think the latest round of wearied explanations on the part of Marhwini has me finally comprehending what he is about... sort of. You're attempting to build a model of Middle-earth, down the physical (and metaphysical) laws--a digital orrery, so to speak? Assuming I have that right, I was certainly off the mark to speak of your goal as being a Unified Theory.

As far as this goes, I can see how someone having a passion for both Tolkien and computers (or should I say "computational science?") would develop a sustaining interest in such a project. It is, however, quite far from the norm of the fandom around here--I'd say this forum skews Luddite rather than Early Adopter.

Except for one thing: it seems to me that you cannot proceed with this project without, in fact, having a criteria for establishing what is or is not "true" in Middle-earth. The comparison with an orrery sticks in my mind because you cannot construct an orrery without determining how the solar system actually moves: is it geocentric or sol-centric? In the case of Middle-earth this is no throwaway analogy: was Arda ever flat? Was it geocentric?

And this brings me back to the question of canonicity (every few years, it seems, I get the itch to goad people back to that impossible topic): unless you are to make yourself the sole arbiter of what is true or not in Middle-earth--in which case it seems to me you'd be better off just creating your own world from scratch and admitting that it's based on Middle-earth--or you have to establish a rule by which to admit or deny Tolkien's own work.

And you're still going to end up with places where Tolkien is silent, at which point you have to fill in the blanks yourself. As I said, I can see how this is an attractive project to pursue, but surely it should be equally clear how someone not participating in the project might be cool to it: the project invites you to add your own decision-making and art, however measured, and this is bound to make the observation of the project less appealing to other Tolkien fans. As fans we tend to assume immense feelings of personal ownership regarding the objects of our obsession.

One final point:

While Tolkien's work might be "Art" it does not dismiss the statements made by Tolkien himself (see where I have quoted them above in the thread more times than I can now count) that there are Operational Rules (Sciences) within Middle-earth that are just as robust and rigorous as are our Sciences in this world.

Let us grant for a moment that Tolkien's quotes mean exactly what you claim they do (personally, I do think they stretch QUITE so far, though I agree with that he sees Middle-earth as a rationally-constructed world), this does not mean that him stating this would make that so. Just because Tolkien SAYS that Middle-earth is based on operational rules does not make it so. For one thing, Tolkien lacked the Divine Omniscience necessary to ensure all these rules were kept proper and in play in the creation of all his fiction. For another, Tolkien is known to occasionally mis-characterise his own writings when reflecting on them from a later time.


Perhaps the most pertinent point of all to my mind is that any such model of Middle-earth would have to be precisely that: A model. Not the model. In complete fairness to Marhwini, I should note that his explanations do say, multiple times statements of this nature: "an Operating Virtual World of Middle-earth," "a Model World of Middle-earth to be Instantiated," "a working System and Foundation." Of course, if it truly is only *A* model, then it is implicit that other models are possible on the same data--and the data of Middle-earth is self-conflicting and limited, unlike the real world, where we have the possibility of going out and acquiring more.

[Nerwen]

OK.... If you think this "idea" so insane....

In one sentence describe to me what the idea is.

I can.


Or, if you cannot do it in one sentence.... How about just ANY description of what I am talking about that actually IS what I am talking about, and not something that you THINK I am talking about.

Because if you cannot even accurately describe the goal, how is it that you can know what is right/wrong with it?


MB
Uh-huh. So it is what I thought. You are trying to create a working model of Middle-earth, with modified physics to account for the spiritual element.

Like many people, I was under the impression that this was simply to be "on paper", but now it seems that it involves computer simulation and *possibly* the ultimate creation of a Matrix-like virtual Middle-earth. Very well. The fault lies not with us but with you for your failure to make this remotely clear (whilst constantly berating us for our supposed stupidity in not "getting it").

While making the project far more grandiose than I had realised, it still doesn't change the fact that it is, as I said originally, just a form of fan-fiction. You may produce something that will satisfy you as a "canonical" model of Middle-earth, but be rejected by countless other fans as being as much a travesty to them as Jackson's films are to you. Are you prepared for that? I have seen you make many a sweeping pronouncement on what is or isn't "Canon", as though you consider yourself some final authority, but it is not so. There are too many contradictions, too many blank spaces to fill in.

I have said "you may produce something..." There's the rub. Who in your group has the ability to do all this? I mean, yes, you claim expert knowledge in a vast number of fields- so vast that I have to tell you that you are frankly starting to come across as more of a fantasist than anything else. But okay, I'll assume you're qualified in one or more areas relevant to the project, and that there are people in your group with expertise in complementary areas. Well. Do you *listen* to them? Do you treat them with respect? How did you recruit them in the first place? Doesn't that mean you were at some point willing to entertain the idea that someone, somewhere, might know more than you about something? Because from what I've seen of you so far, Marhwini, that's really quite hard to believe.

EDIT: By the way, I did not at any point describe your idea as "insane". I said you had too much emotional investment in it.

[Nerwen]

As a clarification, Marhwini, I hadn't previously ruled out the idea that you were intending to use computer modelling in your project at some point, but certainly the revelation of the Gibsonesque nature of your endgame threw me, rather.

But when all's said and done, that's just the answer to my question of, "what do you ultimately intend to do with it"? The meat of your project remains the development of the underlying theoretical model, right? So nothing changes.

[Marwhini]

As far as this goes, I can see how someone having a passion for both Tolkien and computers (or should I say "computational science?") would develop a sustaining interest in such a project. It is, however, quite far from the norm of the fandom around here--I'd say this forum skews Luddite rather than Early Adopter.

Except for one thing: it seems to me that you cannot proceed with this project without, in fact, having a criteria for establishing what is or is not "true" in Middle-earth. The comparison with an orrery sticks in my mind because you cannot construct an orrery without determining how the solar system actually moves: is it geocentric or sol-centric? In the case of Middle-earth this is no throwaway analogy: was Arda ever flat? Was it geocentric?

This remains a central problem we have encountered (what is "True" regarding the various things that have changed).

Many of the things can be altered with a simple variable swap (T/F), each of which has their own associating cascade of events following it.


And this brings me back to the question of canonicity (every few years, it seems, I get the itch to goad people back to that impossible topic): unless you are to make yourself the sole arbiter of what is true or not in Middle-earth--in which case it seems to me you'd be better off just creating your own world from scratch and admitting that it's based on Middle-earth--or you have to establish a rule by which to admit or deny Tolkien's own work.

The hope is to eventually have the Tolkien estate arbitrate that. We do have a problem there, in that Christopher remains the only real "Expert" in that regard.

But ultimately, the issue of what is "True" is not as difficult as you might think.

Because once you have a metaphysical Foundation, then the Physics of the world remains basically fixed, even if the features of the world are different (The Canon, or History).

So things like whether it is a Round World, or a Flat World, to begin with, would not matter in terms of how the "universe" operates. All that would be would be a feature of the universe.

This is sort of like how in our Universe, it doesn't matter if a Solar System has one planet, or ten planets. That all still obey the same rules.

Geocentrism or Heliocentrism likewise would not be an issue (we've already worked out a model that can transition from one to the other over any interval of time)


And you're still going to end up with places where Tolkien is silent, at which point you have to fill in the blanks yourself. As I said, I can see how this is an attractive project to pursue, but surely it should be equally clear how someone not participating in the project might be cool to it: the project invites you to add your own decision-making and art, however measured, and this is bound to make the observation of the project less appealing to other Tolkien fans. As fans we tend to assume immense feelings of personal ownership regarding the objects of our obsession.


And that is our biggest problem. We have proposed a couple of means for how to get past either the historic gaps, or the metaphysical/theological gaps as well.

But there will remain some arbitrary decisions. That can't be avoided.

All that we are looking for is how to avoid Kludges wherever possible, such that everything that possibly can be based upon a Foundational Rule will be based upon a Foundational Rule.

Again, in a lot of these, it is just a matter of having the different theological or metaphysical options coded.



One final point:



Let us grant for a moment that Tolkien's quotes mean exactly what you claim they do (personally, I do think they stretch QUITE so far, though I agree with that he sees Middle-earth as a rationally-constructed world), this does not mean that him stating this would make that so. Just because Tolkien SAYS that Middle-earth is based on operational rules does not make it so. For one thing, Tolkien lacked the Divine Omniscience necessary to ensure all these rules were kept proper and in play in the creation of all his fiction. For another, Tolkien is known to occasionally mis-characterise his own writings when reflecting on them from a later time.

Fortunately this isn't something we have encountered as a problem (Tolkien's lack of a "Divine Omniscience" creating problems).

The Area where we have discovered the most difficulty is in the Geology and the Meteorology.

But even in those areas we have found that there are solutions to the problems regarding Tolkien's lack of understanding in that area.

Also population Logistics seems to be a problem, as Middle-earth would likely have far many more occupants than we are given the impression of in the Novels.


Perhaps the most pertinent point of all to my mind is that any such model of Middle-earth would have to be precisely that: A model. Not the model. In complete fairness to Marhwini, I should note that his explanations do say, multiple times statements of this nature: "an Operating Virtual World of Middle-earth," "a Model World of Middle-earth to be Instantiated," "a working System and Foundation." Of course, if it truly is only *A* model, then it is implicit that other models are possible on the same data--and the data of Middle-earth is self-conflicting and limited, unlike the real world, where we have the possibility of going out and acquiring more.

That is all we can do for our world as well.

That we lack a complete understanding of our world, and that it has enormous gaps, both epistemologically, and historically does not mean that we cannot make surprisingly accurate models.

And that we cannot refine them as time goes by and we learn more about the world in question.

Yes, there is a LOT of subjectivity to what we are doing.

But the ultimate project would allow others to take the finished product, and apply their own assumptions and imagery about Middle-earth, and thus obtain their own idea of the world.

This is a mistake people have about sciences in our world/universe as well:

That because something is based upon a Science, that it can only have one possible answer, ever.

That is like saying that Gravity remains constant across the entire Universe at 9.8m/s^2 (when we now it varies by a formulae set down by both Newton and Einstein).

Or that biology is only possible with one form of origin or biochemistry (Archeoforms and Extremophiles show this to not be true).

MB

[Marwhini]

Uh-huh. So it is what I thought. You are trying to create a working model of Middle-earth, with modified physics to account for the spiritual element.

Like many people, I was under the impression that this was simply to be "on paper", but now it seems that it involves computer simulation and *possibly* the ultimate creation of a Matrix-like virtual Middle-earth. Very well. The fault lies not with us but with you for your failure to make this remotely clear (whilst constantly berating us for our supposed stupidity in not "getting it").

It is both "on Paper" AND with a Computer.

Do you not know what a Turning Machine is (The Earliest Conception by Turing)?

A strip of paper, with encoded rules that describe various operations?

Turing proved that this simple model was capable of solving any problem possible that could be computed.

At that point, you are then left with the philosophical issue of: P = NP || P ≠ NP.


While making the project far more grandiose than I had realised, it still doesn't change the fact that it is, as I said originally, just a form of fan-fiction. You may produce something that will satisfy you as a "canonical" model of Middle-earth, but be rejected by countless other fans as being as much a travesty to them as Jackson's films are to you. Are you prepared for that? I have seen you make many a sweeping pronouncement on what is or isn't "Canon", as though you consider yourself some final authority, but it is not so. There are too many contradictions, too many blank spaces to fill in.

Science is JUST "Fan-Fiction" in that case, because it contains the same problems that exist in Tolkien's world:

We have gaps in history.

We have a lack of a Foundational Philosophical and Metaphysical account of the universe.

And we have multiple competing Theologies, most of which appear to be categorically contradictory.

It's pretty easy to accept/reject other's accounts of Middle-earth based upon a singular criteria:

Do they alter the Canon?

Peter Jackson didn't just alter the canon, he vomited all over it. And that doesn't even get into the metaphysical or theological minutia. All one needs to look at is the pure Historical record of Middle-earth (what Tolkien said happened, and where).



I have said "you may produce something..." There's the rub. Who in your group has the ability to do all this? I mean, yes, you claim expert knowledge in a vast number of fields- so vast that I have to tell you that you are frankly starting to come across as more of a fantasist than anything else. But okay, I'll assume you're qualified in one or more areas relevant to the project, and that there are people in your group with expertise in complementary areas. Well. Do you *listen* to them? Do you treat them with respect? How did you recruit them in the first place? Doesn't that mean you were at some point willing to entertain the idea that someone, somewhere, might know more than you about something? Because from what I've seen of you so far, Marhwini, that's really quite hard to believe.

EDIT: By the way, I did not at any point describe your idea as "insane". I said you had too much emotional investment in it.[/QUOTE]

How we treat each other seems to be exactly the same as how everyone in academic gets treated. Some have more experience than others.

And I didn't recruit them.

We got the idea after the original Jackson movies were produced, but it really didn't go very far until the second Trilogy of movies was produced, when we all pretty much reacted with revulsion to Jackson's treatment of The Hobbit, and began wondering a bit more deeply about a simple question (which also sums up the goal):

"What would need to be true given what is true in Tolkien's works?"

Another way to put that is:

"What is necessarily True in Middle-earth given the Observation of Middle-earth?" (not necessarily referring to the books by the same name there).

This is the essence of the Sciences (What is Necessarily True given what we Observe of the Universe?).

MB

[Morthoron]

That would be an exact example of what I am talking about being "Not even Wrong."

It would be one thing if you could communicate a correct description of what I have been attempting to resolve within Tolkien's work, and then criticized it.

But I have yet to see even an attempt to understand the goal, or what it entails, much less any criticism that actually applies to what I am (or, rather, "We") are attempting to do.

Again, you mistake misunderstanding with rejection. I reject your attempt at making a little video game and claiming it encompasses what a dead author might be thinking on any given subject. It is indeed fan-fiction, enlightened and scientific enough so as not to contain Mary-Sues on little pink ponies, but fan-fiction nonetheless, no matter how you try to conflate it to epic proportions with algorithms and pronouncements. Let's upgrade your attempt to "speculative fiction", give it a nod and a pat on the back for effort, and move on.

...But that in no way changes the fact that someone who has failed to understand the goal and process here has failed to understand the goal and process.

They might take offense at having this pointed out. But that would be rather like being offended when told that 1+1 ≠ 7. Especially if one intended to discover the correct answer to the problem of 1 + 1 .

Perhaps our failure to communicate entails my concern and fascination dealing with the philology, literary devices, the motifs, the synthesis of world mythos that Tolkien instilled in his work, and the glamour of Middle-earth, with it's the facade of magic and the eucatastrophic ending that requires a suspension of disbelief, because there are some things in Middle-earth that are simply inexplicable by scientific methods; Tolkien himself expressed the need of enigma in fantasy. Tolkien was quite curt with a correspondent, Peter Hastings, who pushed Tolkien in a letter to further explain Bombadil's status, to which Tolkien stated, "As for Tom Bombadil, I really do think you are being far too serious," and further emphasized the point with a blunt, "I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it." I would suggest you are not improving it in the same monomaniacal manner.

It seems to me that you subscribe to what Gandalf said of Saruman, “He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.”

Science is JUST "Fan-Fiction" in that case, because it contains the same problems that exist in Tolkien's world:

We have gaps in history....

And that is our biggest problem. We have proposed a couple of means for how to get past either the historic gaps, or the metaphysical/theological gaps as well.

But there will remain some arbitrary decisions. That can't be avoided.

No, science is not fan-fiction, because one can continually update one's hypotheses to match newly discovered data. Science is not static and is not based on presupposition in so far as ignoring some data to push other data into a given mold.

In the case of Tolkien's Middle-earth, you are attempting to arbitrarily decide how his world operates based on incomplete data, and not only that, pick and choose what you consider "canon".

Which brings me back to the infamous 'talking purse', which you so blithely brushed off when you decided it was merely a story-telling contrivance by Bilbo so as to not upset children listeners, and again ignored the mention to merely state I misunderstood your objectives. There is nothing anywhere in Tolkien's mountains of missives and writings that states that a talking purse does not exist in Middle-earth, any more so than one can explain away anthropomorphic animals, or several species of birds, canines and dragons with intelligible speech (or the aptitude for a lower life form to make such speech), a talking sword (courtesy of the Kalevala), spells, curses and counter-curses, songs of power, lands held in a natural vacuum of verdancy by wielding a Ring of Power, undead beings existing for thousands of years at the whim of a Ring, malevolent, predatory willows, or blades that turn blue when only a very specific species of creature comes in contact with the wielder (without, of course, insisting on some specialized infra-red computational technology that could not exist in a fantasy of that age).

You can pontificate, you can approximate, you can estimate, but you still will not offer a Truth in your little video game commensurate with reality. You only eliminate Wonder and Imagination in the process, breaking down Fantasy into mathematical scribbles .

[Nerwen]

Me again.

So, Marhwini, you concede that we did actually understand what you were talking about?:Merisu:

Although it seems you have a further goal, previously unmentioned, which is to persuade Tolkien Estate to "canonize" your model. Okay... I'd advise you not to hold your breath.

As for the rest: yes, yes, we are all aware that science but imperfectly describes reality. The difference is that there is still an underlying reality for it to describe. It is possible for a scientific theory to actually correspond to that reality, even if we are never able to prove it; it is not possible in the case of a similar theory about Middle-earth (in the absence of authorial confirmation). So no, science is not fan-fiction. Fan-fiction is fan-fiction.

And with all this- no, I am not saying that your project is doomed*, worthless or "insane". Not at all. I am saying that you should consider approaching it differently.

Another thing to consider is your assumption that disagreement with you is, ipso facto, a sign of abject ignorance, requiring a condescending lecture (preferably In Capitals). Perhaps people other yourself have taken the occasional stroll through a college campus? Something to bear in mind, that's all.;)





*unless you're really counting on the aforesaid acceptance by Tolkien Estate. In which case, yeah, I'd say it's pretty much doomed. Sorry.:(

[Nerwen]

Me yet again. Look, I've just been thinking a bit more about this- there is another basic problem with your approach, already mentioned by Morthoron, which at present makes it hard to take seriously.

It's pretty easy to accept/reject other's accounts of Middle-earth based upon a singular criteria:

Do they alter the Canon?

Peter Jackson didn't just alter the canon, he vomited all over it. And that doesn't even get into the metaphysical or theological minutia. All one needs to look at is the pure Historical record of Middle-earth (what Tolkien said happened, and where).
...and then reject anything that doesn't fit your model as in-world fiction, as demonstrated by your "explanation" of the talking purse. In other words, you are ignoring that "singular criterion" in practice.

It seems that what you are doing is

arbitrarily designating various elements of Tolkien's writing as true or false.
creating a Grand Unified Theory of Middle-earth to account for the "true" elements only.
using the theory to determine whether elements of Tolkien's writing are true or false.


How we treat each other seems to be exactly the same as how everyone in academic gets treated. Some have more experience than others.

And I didn't recruit them.

We got the idea after the original Jackson movies were produced, but it really didn't go very far until the second Trilogy of movies was produced, when we all pretty much reacted with revulsion to Jackson's treatment of The Hobbit, and began wondering a bit more deeply about a simple question (which also sums up the goal):

"What would need to be true given what is true in Tolkien's works?"

Another way to put that is:

"What is necessarily True in Middle-earth given the Observation of Middle-earth?" (not necessarily referring to the books by the same name there).

This is the essence of the Sciences (What is Necessarily True given what we Observe of the Universe?).
And not one of your scientific experts can recognise circular reasoning (see above)? Really?

Now, if you were just content to come up with a partial model, rather than a Middle-earth Theory of Everything, the problem would largely disappear- but you have said many times that isn't the case.