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lindil
03-29-2001, 04:00 AM
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<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "...the light of Lorien was now hidden...The travellers now turned their faces to the journey; the sun was before them , and their eyes were dazzled, for all were filled with tears."<hr></blockquote>

I read this recently and just realized that Boromir was among those whose eyes were 'filled w/ tears' .

Either JRRT is using poetic lic. w/ 'everyone' or Boromir was moved despite his earlier judgements of Galadriel. Obviously he lapses again.

How torn he must have been seeing probably for the first time in his life that between Rivendell, Lorien and Aragorn the world was very different than he had thought and that Gondor while the largest defense against Sauron was not the most potent, and that there were other realms of which he had seen but which were far more noble.

I even wonder if Boromir did not arrive at Rivendell via the usual road but had been escorted by the Rangers from some point past Tharbad along a much quicker route up the hoarwell [past their 'hidden fastness'] and then bruinen.

He would have been a most tempting target for the 9 otherwise. Travelling alone along the very road they were searching for frodo.

Any way I am curious to see what other folks think about Boromir's tears upon leaving Lothlorien.



Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:10 AM December 19, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Odysseus819
03-29-2001, 06:54 PM
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Re: The tears of Boromir

It IS hard to believe that the proud stoic warrior was driven to tears, esp. given his distrust of Galadriel, but Galadriel DOES make quite a long and ostentatious exit from the stage, complete with farewell gifts and speches, swan-boat, etc. Maybe the display was too much for even Boromir. I like your point about the long trip to Rivendell having opened Boromir's eyes to the big world outside Minas Tirith. One question -- doesn't Boromir say that the trip took him 110 days, which is much longer than the company took going the other way? I always assumed that Boromir was lost and wandering for an extended time, and that JRRT was in some sense belittling him (in comparison to Strider the Ranger) with this detail.

</p>

mwcfrodo
03-29-2001, 10:43 PM
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Re: The tears of Boromir

Perhaps his eyes were filled with tears because he was looking into the bright sun?? Some folks sneeze when they look at the sun and some just tear up -- maybe Boromir was one of the latter..

As for the 110 days...First of all, didn't he come up through the Gap of Rohan? One of the arguments for going through Moria was that it would take too long to go down the west side of the mountains and through Rohan (leaving aside the dubious alligencies of the the Rohirrim) Second, I'd always assumed that Rivendell was tricky to find if someone did not know the way and/or did not know how to look for it. Clearly given Boromir's attitude toward Lothlorien, no one was ever going to give him the nickname &quot;Elf-friend&quot; and I think that meant he would be unable to see Elvish creations. Several times in ROTK, Sam and Frodo's elvish cloaks seem to conceal them more than would be expected from the Orcs. I think that type of &quot;Elvish magic&quot; would make Rivendell hard for Boromir to spot. Finally (and somewhat tongue-in-cheek), he was full of pride and stubborn -- not the type to ask directions...

</p>

Gilthalion
03-30-2001, 06:04 AM
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Re: Re: The tears of Boromir

Boromir's &quot;distrust&quot; of the Lady was personal.

I do not think that any good and decent person (as Boromir basically was) despite their prejudices, could pass through such a scene without being effected.

Tears in the eyes of Boromir.

Certainly.

All of his problems were bound up in his pride and the working of the Ring upon it. But Galadriel in full glory left none unaffected. Especially not in the full context of all the events transpiring!

Boromir was a passionate man, who cared for the other members of the Fellowship and cared for Gondor and Denethor and Faramir dearly. He accepted Aragorn as the Heir.

His scene of repentance ere his death revealed his true heart.

The rest was weakness and the Ring.

I've known of hard prejudiced white men (of an elder generation) who were moved to tears by a black preacher and choir.

It's not such a far stretch for Boromir to tear up at this.

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Odysseus819
03-30-2001, 07:50 AM
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Re: Re: The tears of Boromir

Boromir WAS basically a good man, I totally agree. His willingness to face the balrog in aid of Gandalf and his defense of the hobbits, if nothing else, show that. I think he says at the Council of Elrond that Rivendell is hard to find if you don't know the way, and the fact that he took 110 days to find it does not lessen him in my eyes. However, I DO think that many things that Tolkien has Boromir doing during his time with the Fellowship are meant to contrast him (unfavorably) with Aragorn -- e.g. his lack of trust in Gandalf and Elrond, his blowing of his horn on setting forth, his awaking the sleeper in the water, etc. &quot;Belittling&quot; was too strong a word.

</p>

lindil
03-30-2001, 08:06 AM
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Re: the trip to rivendell

Odysseus, you are most likely right about the trip being a longer journey w/ out the aid of rangers.
[although I do not think Boromir would have given credit to them in the Council of Elrond at that point, he was feeling a strong need to interupt the council w/ his prouud, premature and unasked for account of Gondor.

So maybe te learning that the north had rangers equal [or better] than the rangersof Ithilien was unsettling, or maybee it was for the first time in his life being exsposed to Noldor who had lived in Aman, and Elrond. To find living representatives of the'Old Tales 'which he probably loved as a boy, musst have been disturbing on some levels.

I mentioned the whole ranger hypothesis though to attempt to account for his seeming non-involvment w/ the Nazgul who were scouring the very area he was travelling through.

Gilthalion your reading of the departure is happily , I would say [ or hope] the right one.
That Boromir [who may well have known Quenya and thus Galadriel's song] was exceedingly moved by the gifts, and by Galadriel putting forth her power in sing in such a strangely moving and vulnerable fashion.

Had I been in the fellowship I doubt if I would have had the strength to leave.




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Mithrandir
03-30-2001, 02:41 PM
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Re: The tears of Boromir

Why didnt the nine bother Boromir as he was going to Rivendell? It isnt like he could have put up much of a fight if they had attacked him. But on the other hand, Boromir was just one man, and not a pressing concern on the nine, they were too busy looking for Frodo to spend extra time harassing Boromir. What do you guys think about this?

The Road goes ever on and on </p>

Glorfindel
03-30-2001, 03:43 PM
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Re: The tears of Boromir

I really dont think they would of saw each other on their roads to the northlands. I mean when looking at the map of Eriador, the 9 went up the greenway, which vears away from teh misty mountains strait to bree. But I always took it that Boromir went up along with the mountains. I think the only place they would of saw him would of been through the gap of Rohan. And i dont know if their dates corrilated. But if they did see him I'm pretty sure the 9 would of ended him becuase he was the great Gondorian captain who threw down the bridge at osgiliath preventing saurons troops from teh other side.
just a thought



</p>

HerenIstarion
03-31-2001, 05:16 AM
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Re: The tears of Boromir

How would they know him, if the meeting took place? They never met him face to face.

lindil
03-31-2001, 08:54 AM
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Re: The tears of Boromir

While threre is little reason to think they would be able to tell he was the captain of the Dunedain of Gondor, by sight or smell. He would have stood out [his clothes were described as rich , but travel-worn so he would not appear as your average Dunlending,Breelander or homeless wanderer, he was clearly a noble going from one place to another and since all major realms of Men were against Sauron in some fashion he would I think be seen as a red flag.

As for the journey up the Mountains as opposed to the roadway it seems he might have commented on this as he headed through Eregion w/ the company. 'I was here a few months ago and indeed there were birds and animals' or some such.

Now that I thinkabout it, Boromir not having encountered rangers in Eriador would be strange[asssuming he took roads past Tharbad] where Rangers would also be watching I would imagine. They were supposedly guarding Eriador, greanted though the Nine created a bit of chaos w/ their regular patrols, this should have heightened watch if anything.




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Mithrandir
03-31-2001, 09:04 AM
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Re: The tears of Boromir

It is also possible that the rangers saw Boromir, and indeed watched him carfully, but seeing no threat from him and more pressing matters with the nine, they left him alone to fend for himself. I think that the rangers knew of Boromirs journey, but didnt interact with him.

The Road goes ever on and on </p>

lindil
03-31-2001, 10:29 AM
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Re: The tears of Boromir

quite possible.

</p>

Glorfindel
03-31-2001, 12:01 PM
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Re: The tears of Boromir

I think that the Nazgul would know Boromir. I mean it is just my own conclusion but a man that pivital in the realm of Gondor would be known by the enemy and his servents. So that is why I think the Nazgul left him alone. Not because their task was so pressing, which it was. But because they didn't cross his path.

</p>

Shark
03-31-2001, 02:15 PM
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Re: The tears of Boromir

Boromir has actually fougth against armies led by Nazgl at Osgiliath, they certainly would have recognised him.

</p>

lindil
03-31-2001, 05:14 PM
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Re: the detection of Boromir

The Nazgul might have recognized him via a one way 'osanwe'.

But I would say this is possible not definite.

It is not improbable that they would have done a mental scan of the Gondorians and looked for their leader and his level of resistance, suceptability to fear and mental authority over their troops, etc., in which case they may have mistaken Faramir as the leader!, and thus not even have recognized Boromir as chief .

Perhaps [Lindil now reaches the height off speculation] this is why the dream also came to Boromir, as he would be less detectable by the enemy.

Faramir ,being of 'nearly pure Numenorean descent' would have been the more obvious mind on whom the Nazgul would fix at the battle of Osgiliath, even as they did in Pellenor fields.




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

Glorfindel
03-31-2001, 05:38 PM
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Re: the detection of Boromir

But Lindil, Boromir wasn't of almost pure Numenorean decent?
But that is a good arguement about Faramir having a strong mind.

</p>

Gilthalion
03-31-2001, 06:38 PM
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Re: the detection of Boromir

I think that they just missed Boromir along the way. We are talking here about a very long stretch of road. Highly improbable that that any two (or ten) particular people would have met.



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lindil
04-01-2001, 03:21 AM
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Re: the detection of Boromir

Glorfindel: Gandalf remarks that the blood of Numenor ran true in Denethor and his son Faramir but not Boromir [from memory] I am not sure where this is, I think to Pippin in Minas Tirith. So while all 3 had the same anscestory Boromir ended up w/ the non-Numenorean genes [from the Rhovanions ? , coastal non-Numenorean Gondorians ?].That is my take on it anyway.

G &amp; all :I think the best answer as to why Boromir was not stopped is obviously providence.
Yes it was a long road but the Nazgul were on it searching for any clue to the Ring. We read in UT how they nabbed one of Saruman's Shire connections and from him obtained detailed info on Towns ,cities,and the name of Baggins etc. They would stop and question anyone they passed I think.And they were all up and down the road from Bree to the fords of Bruinen during the last stage of Boromir's journey. I think the last stage of travel being on this road is therefore unlikely. Going up alongside the mountains might have elicited a comment from B. on the return journey, esp as Gandalf was complimenting Strider . If Boromir had possesed more recent info on Hollin he would have spoken up maybe. That is why I considered the Ranger trail/road that must have run from Tharbad to their 'hidden fastness'in the angle of the Mitheithel/Bruinen and then on to Rivendell a likely route. However Boromir does offer the ambiguous statement of 'many have heard of Rivendell but few knew where it lay' [from memory] this seems to indicate that he met someone [ or a few] who did know where it lay.This narrows it down to Dwarves ,Wandering Companies and Rangers I would say.
He seems suprised to see Halflings in Rivendell so I wonder if it indicates not having passed through Bree or the borders of the Shire. As 2 of the great roads do.







Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>