Lembas

[Lady Eowyn]

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I don't know if this has been discussed before.
Where did Lembas come from. In Lotr they said that only Galadriel and her handmaidens knew the recipe, Beleg had some Lembas when he came from Doriath.
So where did the recipe for Lembas come from??


And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

[The X Phial]

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Re: Lembas

Lembas could have been a recipe of Melian's that Galadrial knew because she lived in Doriath for so long with Celeborn when Thingol and Melian were still ruling.

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[red]

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Re: Lembas

Twinkies.

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Lembas

Per HoME, Lembas were made from a particular Valinorean strain of &quot;corn&quot; (which could mean grain in old english as opposed to the corn we know). The making and giving of Lembas was vested in the &quot;Queen&quot;. As commented above, Melian apparently was one who was involved in the making of Lembas and Galadriel, though not technically a queen, knew of its making from Melian or Valinor.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[lindil]

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Re: Lembas

There is a previous thread of a month or so ago, but the ultimate source is the small ch. mentioned by Mithadan .




Lindil is oft found on posting on[i] the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Glorfindel]

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Re: Lembas

Lembas reminds me of stuff that in everyday is normal but add the drug factor to it, they become exceptional. Like hash brownies, or jello shooters. Maybe them elves were middle earths own little drug dealers. With Melian the Maia being the head of the elven cartel.



</p>

[The X Phial]

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Re: Lembas

That would explain why the security in Doriath, and later Lothlorien, was so tight! <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[Zoe]

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Re: Lembas

I always thought that Tom Bombadil was the one most likely to be a druggie. He's got (relatively) easy access to shipments from overseas through the Grey Havens, plus Pipe weed from the shire, and as for Farmer Maggot's mushrooms... Don't try and tell me they weren't magic. Why else would Frodo have gone after them in his teens?

"This sig is proudly quote-free." -Me.
(Also known as eoz, and now has a non-Tolkien forum, called http://pub57.ezboard.com/beverythingelse45161everything else</a>.) </p>

[Iulbahar]

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Re: Lembas

I imagine Lembas as being a sort of cross between Greek Halvas and Paximadia. Forget the dope, they had serious battles to fight!

</p>

[lindil]

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Re: Lembas

Welcome to the Barrows Iulbahar -
And thanks for a mild re-injection of levity.
Some of these wights don't get out much and can get a little silly
<img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

It was pretty funny though.





Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Lembas

Well, lembas was evidently addicting, and had some properties that were not good for mortals in the long run...

<center><font face=verdana size=1> http://www.barrowdowns.comBarrow-Downs</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000Bare Bones</a>~http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000/gilthalion.htmlGrand Adventures</a>~http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.aspThe Hobbits</a>~http://www.tolkientrail.comTolkien Trail</a> </center></p>

[KM Tinuviel]

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Re: Lembas

Lol, Red! (Twinkies) But maybe they were Ding-Dongs?


</p>

[KayQy]

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Re: Lembas

They must have had chocolate in them. Chocolate is taken on hiking trips even today, for its energy content and preservability (at least I think that's why). What other food product can be so nourishing and addictive at the same time? <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

And chocolate even comes from the West! After Valinor finally dropped off the edge of the world, so to speak, they must have left the cacao in the Americas so Man can always have a reminder of something heavenly! <img src=biggrin.gif ALT=":D">

Truth will outlast both fact and fiction.</p>

[Orald]

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Re: Lembas

Someone had a recipe for lembas somewhere. Look back to the Middle-Earth recipes thread, I think it is in there.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[red]

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Twinkies, I tell ya!!

I told ya once before and I'll tell ya again! Lembas is Twinkies!! See link below...

<a href=http://www.speakeasy.org/~ohh/twinkies.htm>Lembas</a>

See? I'm not making this up. There is evidence. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> Sheesh!

-réd



<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[Erchamion]

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Re: Twinkies, I tell ya!!

Lembas is cream-filled????

Get you gone and fly, for here is a fire that shall consume you, and all evil things.</p>

[the youngest Rose]

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baked not fried

if lembas was wonderfully energizing characteristics, and you don't have to eat a lot of it to feel full, when could it have possibly been used as a secret DIET PROGRAM?

</p>

[Orald]

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baked not fried

That is why you never here about to many fat elves.

</p>

[SAVALAS]

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lembas

Lembas tastes nice I think<img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

</p>

[Amandil]

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Re: lembas

I always wondered how long lembas stayed good for and how filling it was. I always envisioned fairly small servings sating your appetite fairly well. Could you imagine carrying lembas, wrapped in its leaf, in your pocket, marching for hours, and then finding a pocket full of lembas crumbs in your pocket? Or a wad of lembas all mushed up with whatever you happened to have in your pocket? Loose change? Pocket lint?
And the conception of lembas going bad, or moldy is just wrong!!!

Hmm.. long shelf life is another property of Twinkies.
The evidence grows!

</p>

[KM Tinuviel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: lembas

I'm tellin' ya, people, lembas = Ding-Dongs!! The Twinkie argument is a good one, but the Elves simply MUST have known about chocolate. <img src=roll.gif ALT=":rollin">

</p>

[Halbarad]

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Re: Lembas

It was said that it may have been a property of the lembas that enabled Frodo to survive for so long. It was also distasteful to Gollum and the orcs, so a vital ingredient of it may have been the makers themselves, infusing it with a quality of Goodness that was bad for Bad people. What's this about it not being good for mortals?!

</p>

[Manwe]

Haven't anyone thought about that lembas can be drugs? One of the elves says to Gimli that one lembas can keep a wanderer up, even if he's not a dwarf. But if they were drugs elves probably go maniac, hallucinate or something else, if the elves isn't verry recistant( is that how you spell it? ), but they probablly are.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

well I guess so, if you simply consider drugs as a stimulant...hmm maybe any magic potion could just be labelled a drug...don't see why not

[Lindolirian]

Ok y'all... lembas is Twinkies because is is cream filled, and light brown coloured well preserved and gives you energy like sugar. Now there is another theory that takes more explaining.... Celeborn is Santa Claus. They describe him as tall with long white hair. He lives in a hidden land with elves who are very good with their hands and can make stuff well. Also he has lembas... they could be the cookies that he collects Xmas night when all the little kiddies leave out their cookies he gathers together and gives to Aragorn and hobbits and other folk. Sooo its a little far fetched, but I thought it was funny. :rolleyes:

[Lostgaeriel]

When I'm reading the LOTR and getting hungry, I always imagine lembas to be similar to chewey homemade oatmeal cookies with raisins. However, chocolate chip cookies would keep me going longer. I'm also considering peanut butter cookies as a possiblity. But if they're factory made, perhaps they are Oreos?! I think that's as valid as Twinkies or Ding-Dongs. smilies/biggrin.gif

Thanks to Mithadan for the scholarly answer. This information makes me think of "Johnny Cake" made of corn (maize) meal - a very old recipe. Later - in the Depression - my grandmother served it as a supper main course.

Recipe below. More Middle-earth recipes at An Arda Recipe Book (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=14&t=000609).

[ January 30, 2003: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

[Elrian]

Actually Cirdan had the grey hair, Celeborn's was silver, so Cirdan could be Santa Claus or Gandalf. Lembas is Twinkies, well the proof is there all right, I wouldn't say they were drugged, just magically enhanced to sustain a person, like vitamins. the corn cakes sound good too. I want the recipe smilies/wink.gif

[Lostgaeriel]

Johnny Cake

This is a very old family recipe. Origin is likely Rhode Island, where it was called Journey Cake. (I'm not kidding.) (RI source recipe could be more than 350 years old. This version is at least 65 years old.)

2 cups cornmeal
1 cup all-purpose flour
1 cup brown sugar
1/4 cup shortening
2 cups milk
2 teaspoons baking powder

Mix baking powder with flour. Combine all ingredients, pour into 9" square pan and bake at 375 ºF for about 20 minutes. (To serve Depression/WW2 style, cut into squares while warm. Mix some more milk with nutmeg and sugar to taste and pour over cake.)

Perhaps the batter could be poured into muffin tins (only ~1" deep) or tart tins to make individual cakes. Reduce time in oven - watch carefully - not tested.


UPDATE: June 5, 2002
My mom tells me that the recipe above is indeed from my grandma - my dad's mom - but it is NOT the recipe that she used when I was growing up. This is hers:

1 cup cornmeal
¾ cup all-purpose flour
2 tablespoons sugar
4 teaspoons baking powder
½ teaspoon salt
1 well-beaten egg
1 cup milk
2 tablespoons melted fat or cooking oil

Mix and sift dry ingredients. Add egg, milk and fat. Bake in shallow, greased pan or cake tin in hot oven (425ºF) for 20 minutes.
To serve cut into squares while warm. Mix some more milk with nutmeg and sugar to taste and pour over cake.

UPDATE: January 18, 2005
I have finally tested baking the above recipe in muffin tins (and remembered to update this post). Yield 12 'muffins' or little cakes. Grease the muffin tins and pour the batter ~3/4" to 1" deep. Bake at 425ºF for 12-14 minutes. Good with Chili.

[Ereinion]

Little Rhodey finally gets some recognition. We're the inventors of Lembas! lol.

[Elrian]

Thanks I'm going to make a batch in muffin tins. smilies/smile.gif

[peregrine]

You guys have got it all wrong. Lembas was something given to people who have to endure hardship, especially during war, right? Then Lembas is quite clearly Anzac Biscuits. Tasty, simple, last for ages. Tolkien must have fought for Australia in the First World War.

Nice cat Elrian.

[Lostgaeriel]

I think all of us will need Lembas to sustain us while we wait in line to see the film. I'm makin' a batch or two - Journey Cake and maybe the oatmeal cookies. And I'm bringin' taters. (Salt & Vinegar) Mmmmmm. *smacks lips* smilies/tongue.gif

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

You're thinking of the dwarvish "Cram." Lembas is/are those sweet waffle cookies with the cream filling - only lighter and flakier, and thin. The drugs are the orc draughts. Best not to know what's in them.

[Pippin]

being a stuffy brit smilies/wink.gif I didn't discover the Almighty Twinkie until I was twelve, and on a trip to Florida. a few short years later, I now have a deep liking for them, and beg my brother to bring back some when he goes over on business trips.

so, here is my theory...
Lembas is an original, unevolved form of the Twinkie. sadly without the cream...(can you imagine trying to keep a pocket full of cream-filled Twinkies fresh and unbroken whilst jogging through Mordor?) they have a magical sustinence that keeps travellers on their feet. when the Elves sailed away form Middle earth, they took the recipe with them, discovered cream, changed the name from Lembas to Twinkies and made millions.

OR

Lembas could possibly be a form of donut... smilies/tongue.gif smilies/tongue.gif smilies/tongue.gif

[Pippin]

also I think the barrow cookies could be a close resemblence to Lembas...they seem to be craved by everyone!

[Dwarin Thunderhammer]

Although the Twinkie theory comes quite close I believe it is flawed in one area. Twinkies were not the only decendant of lembas. The books actually describe Lembas as similar to coconut macaroons. It describes them as thin cakes with a light brown outside and a cream colord inside. Dosn't this sound like coconut macaroons? And nd the storage instructions are the same too. Keep them in a sealed contaner and do not break them, neccecities for both twinkies and macaroons.

Here is my theory, Durring Merry and Pippin's stay in Rohan they shared some of their lembas with Eomer. He liked it so much that he tried to replicate it. The people of rohan needed energy and stranght so they concentrated more on the energy aspect of lembas. Since the lives of rohanions were short the recipe changed often until we came to their final product: Twinkies!

The Coconut Macaroons camme from the Gondorains. When Aragorn came home from his journeys, he asked Arwen to make more lembas. Since she was an Elf and Her husband Was a Dunedain she needed not the energy spects and concentrated more on the look/taste aspect of it. So that's how the second line of Lembas developed into: Coconut Macaroons!

I would go into further detail but I am pressed for time.

[Ionia Luffs Reindeer]

To jump back to the drugs thing, doesn't Samwise (*will always call him that, looks more finished than Sam*) think to himself that when he first bit into a Lemba he never thought he'd want more? Sounds fishy... *shifty eyes*

I really like the Twinkie idea. I do. But I always kinda pictured them as more... I dunno... a veggie type deal. Yes, I realize it wouldn't keep. If I had my way it'd be bread of some sort with magical, everlasting guacomole inside. Mmmm Mexican food... *wanders towards kitchen and microwave burritos*

[mordor136]

Hello, my fellow tolkien fan. LOL to the mexican food bit. I think Lembas are flat and round. You can fit more in a bag.

Don't knock Lembas. It beats crum dosn't it. smilies/smile.gif smilies/biggrin.gif smilies/wink.gif

[Lindolirian]

I have only one thing to say: Mexican Wedding Cakes. Y'know the lil' cube-shaped, powder-sugered cookies? They taste Sooooo yummy and they're compact. They have lotsa suger and the wholesome bread-like cookie center. Sounds quite good and sustaining to me. They can also be baked
so that they are flat and more portable.

[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: Lindolirian ]

[Elrian]

The Lembas the Italians call Pizzelles are good too, they keep well too. smilies/wink.gif

[Mhoram]

I always pictured them more like unleven bread, but twinkies are more fun.

[Elrian]

And taste better smilies/wink.gif

Love the new Avatar pic Mhoram! smilies/wink.gif

[Aralaithiel]

OK...whoever posted about the Elves taking the Lembas recipie to the Havens and marketing them as Twinkies...You found us out!!!!! smilies/eek.gif So much for our ancient Elvish secret! (For those of you Americans old enough to remember the Calgon laundry detergent commercials in the 70's - I was making a reference to the Chinese guy who tells the lady how he got her laundry so clean was by using an "ancient Chinese secret")
Twinkies Rule!!!!!!!!!!

[mark12_30]

Modifications to Lostgaeriel's Journey Cake:

WHEAT-FREE, DAIRY-FREE LEMBAS (no kidding)

This past baking session (on Monday) was about varying the Journey Cake recipe. I like what came of it. I've tried to get the consistency as much like a Biscotti as I could, which is how I imagine Lembas to be (at least, if not right out of the oven, then by four weeks into the journey...) This is how I read Tolkien's text: "munching then as best they could with their parched mouths", etc. Normally, I toast things anyway; I'm a "crunchy" type.

Thihnking about Biscottis, I tried twice-baking the Lembas, and it might work if I had more drying racks, but I still ended up toasting the twice-baked wafers this morning as they had moistened back up in the tin.


Here's a brief summary of what I do. For wheat flour, normal white baking flour, I substitute (measure for measure) a gluten-free blend (equal parts cornstarch, tapioca flour, and bean flour, plus 1/4 tsp xanthan gum per cup.) For milk I substitute vanilla soymilk, measure for measure. And to hide the bean flour taste, I add a tsp molasses (or honey, or maple...)

So first, I take the Journey Cake recipe-- 2 cups corn meal, 1 cup "flour", 1 cup brown sugar, 2 tsp baking powder, 1/4 cup oil (okay, I use BUTTER...), 2 cups "milk", 1 tsp Molasses.

It mixes into a pancake- like batter. I pour it into well-buttered skillets and pans at about pancake thickness and put them into a hot oven (it wsays 385 but I don't trust that. Use Cookie temperature.) When I test for doneness, I think, "Cookie"; the edges should brown and pull slightly away from the pan, and it's vaguely cookie consistency. I remove from pans, cool on racks (need more racks) and cut into squares or wedges. Sometimes i re-bake if they are too moist; I want crunchy-colden, like a sugar-cookie or biscotti.

I wanted to try some other grains besides the corn meal. I have white rice flour and brown rice flour that I need to use up, so I decided to try those.

So, second batch: substituted white rice flour for corn meal, and white sugar for brown sugar, and honey for molasses. Wow. Heavy and very sweet and white. Reminded me of Beorn's honey cakes. Very moist when golden; hard and crunchy when toasted.

Third batch: substituted brown rice flour for corn meal, used brown sugar, and maple syrup for molasses. Came out lighter than the second batch, similar in texture to the corn meal variety.

Fourth batch: substituted white rice flour for corn meal, and white sugar for brown sugar, but added 2 tsp maple. Also heavy and very sweet and white, moist when golden, hard and crunchy when toasted.

There you have it so far. Toasted, I think they would all keep and travel rather well, and be a very chompy-crunchy texture. I intend to test this theory on my next business trip! I can never get wheat-free bread on travel, so this is for me a perfect solution to an annoying problem.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

"It was said that it may have been a property of the lembas that enabled Frodo to survive for so long. It was also distasteful to Gollum and the orcs, so a vital ingredient of it may have been the makers themselves, infusing it with a quality of Goodness that was bad for Bad people. What's this about it not being good for mortals?!" -posted by Halbarad

Lembas were said to open a lust for Immortaility in Mortals, hence the Fellowship excluded, Turin was the only other mortal to ever taste Lembas.

[Lostgaeriel]

Note: A 'pasty' is a type of meat pie that can be eaten from the hand – and sustained Cornish tin miners for a long day’s toil. Pronounced with a short 'a' sound.

A Cornish miner talking about pasties:

‘A wadn’ no good at all, time I got down to fifty fathoms a were scat to lembs [broken to bits]. The wans mawthor made wadn’ break if they’d faaled to the bottom of the shaft!’

Source: The Pasty Book by Hettie Merrick, Tor Mark Press, Redruth ©1995. ISBN 080253470

All I could think of when I first read this passage was the exchange between Merry and Pippin when they were captives of the Uruk-hai:

‘Lembas!’ whispered Pippin. ‘Lembas: I’ve got some. Have you? I don’t think they’ve taken anything but our swords.’

‘Yes, I had a packet in my pocket,’ answered Merry, ‘but it must be battered to crumbs. Anyway I can’t put my mouth in my pocket!’

Any comments on the source of the word lembas? I know there are lots of language experts on this forum. (If there's anything to this, Tolkien was making quite a good joke.)

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lostgaeriel,

Hmm... That's fascinating.

I'm no Elvish scholar, but the origin of the word 'lembas' is Sindarin, and means journey or waybread. The older form is 'lenn-mbass'. I believe another Quenyan name was 'coimas' or bread of life.

My guess is that "lembas" as a word existed before Tolkien wrote the particular scene between Merry and Pippin that you are describing. In that sense, the similar Cornish word wouldn't have had a direct impact on the origin of lembas. However, Tolkien knew a vast number of languages and it's certainly possible he had the Cornish word in the back of his mind as he wrote out that particular passage, hence giving the scene an underlying double meaning.

By the way, on my dad's side, I am a "Cousin Jenny" whose family came to the UP of Michigan long years ago to mine copper. I know absolutely no Cornish, but I do make a "mean" pasty and also saffron cake. The story you tell about throwing the pasties down the mine shaft and not having them break....I heard that many times in my childhood (although definitely in English!). If I heard such a tale way across the Atlantic, surely JRRT would have been aware of it, as well as the actual dialect and language that would have been used. Shippey has show how much "word play" there is shot throughout LotR. This could be another instance. But, like you, I can only guess. Perhaps there's someone else who can speak with more certainty on this.

I have a Cornish dictionary on mail order. If and when it gets here, I'll have a look at that word to see what it says. I couldn't find anything directly relevent in the Cornish word lists on the internet. Thanks for the reference to that 'pasty book'. I'll try to dig up a copy.

[Lostgaeriel]

Thanks Child of the 7th Age!

I'm not sure if lembs is actually a Cornish word. Like you, I can't find it in any of the on-line Cornish dictionaries. Perhaps it's a long-out-of-use English word.

My mother's family is from Cornwall. I'll be visiting my relatives there in the spring - first time for me. I'll ask them about the word.

Rydhsys rag Kernow lemmyn. Free Cornwall Now.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Well, I don't know how relevant or helpful this might be but it's what I was able to uncover:

lem is a form of the Old English word leam which means, "light, flame; a flash, ray, or gleam of light; brightness, gleam."

bas is an archaic (Middle-English, like in Chaucer or Gawain) form of base. In the earliest uses of the word, the moral or social connotations were not at play (that is, people were not of "base" birth, bad behaviour was not considered "base"). Instead, it meant simply that something was low or close to the ground (earth?).

So how's this: lem+bas = a gleam of light or flame that is close to the earth?

This would make sense insofar as lembas is a form of Elvish magic, but it is also bread: what could be more homey than that?

(I just love the Oxford English Dictionary.)

[Mithalwen]

Sindarin I believe is based on Welsh, which I believe is in the same language family as Cornish. So it is not impossible that Tolkien knew this word .. but if he didn't I think he would have been pleased by the coincidence.

Ooh saffron cake .... yummy.....

[Lalwendë]

In Breton 'bread' is bara, and I think it is the same in Welsh. If Cornish, Welsh and Breton are all of the same family wouldn't the word for bread be similar? Correct me if I'm wrong! Lembs could be some kind of dialect word (drawn no doubt from the Cornish language) for 'bits'.

As an aside, I read in Bill Bryson's The Lost Continent that he was travelling through a quite desolate part of Michigan when he saw a sign advertising Cornish Pasties and intrigued had to go and find out more. It is obviously an area with a history of immigration from Cornwall. And there is a tale that the pasties were made with a savoury filling at one end and a sweet one at the other; the pastry was made deliberately tough as it was not meant to be eaten, being there merely to protect the contents from the toxins encountered in the mines.

[Michael Wilhelmson]

Just a side note, over in the States we have this horrific hardtack bread that soldiers used to eat before the WWII. If it was eaten by the British in the Great war, Tolkien must obviously have eaten some of this "mineral" and hoped with all his heart for hardtack that was actually nutritional, and somewhat pleasing to the palette. Thus, a tasty, useful waybread.

[mark12_30]

Don't make it with Quinoa flour. :eek:

**convulsions**

[Neithan]

Just a side note, over in the States we have this horrific hardtack bread that soldiers used to eat before the WWII. If it was eaten by the British in the Great war, Tolkien must obviously have eaten some of this "mineral" and hoped with all his heart for hardtack that was actually nutritional, and somewhat pleasing to the palette. Thus, a tasty, useful waybread.
Yes, I thought of hardtack when Gimli talked about Cram. You might say that Lembas is the Elvish version of Cram, or more likely that Cram is a failed attempt to copy Lembas.