New Tolkien book coming!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

As in, actually by JRR Tolkien, not just about him.

The Nature of Middle-earth is a collection of late writings, in both the metaphysical and literal senses of the title: Tolkien's musings on the cosmology of his creation, as well as its biosphere. The collection, edited by Carl F. Hostetter (our own Aelfwine), was authorized by the late Christopher Tolkien before his death and can be viewed as a sort of 13th volume of The History of Middle Earth.

Scheduled for release in the spring of 2021.

[Inziladun]

Outstanding! Long time to wait though....

[Huinesoron]

Ooooooooh....

Per this description (https://www.theonering.net/torwp/2020/06/23/108207-the-nature-of-middle-earth-new-book-with-tolkiens-unpublished-writings/), the "several texts detailing the lands, flora, and fauna of Númenor, and the lives of Númenóreans" sound particularly interesting, provided that doesn't just mean "the drafts of the UT 'Description'".

Hilariously, this page (https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=25290) indicates they only revealed this was coming by accident. Oops!

So, the Expanded History of Middle-earth now includes:

-Unfinished Tales ('HoME 0'?)
-HoME I - XII
-The Index
-The collected Parma Eldalamberon
-Some or all of the collected Vinyar Tengwar (approx. issue 39 onwards)
-The History of the Hobbit, Parts 1 & 2
-The Nature of Middle-earth

I foresee lengthy arguments about which ones count in the numbering. ;) This is going to make all my jokes about "it's in HoME XIII: The Weird Bits" very tricky, though I suppose I can replace them with "it's all in the Hostetter book". ;)

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

To which perhaps could be added The Chronology of the Lord of the Rings, hopefully to appear in Tolkien Studies before long.

[Huinesoron]

To which perhaps could be added The Chronology of the Lord of the Rings, hopefully to appear in Tolkien Studies before long.

Oooooooh...

Can you share any more details on that? The title is intriguing, but could mean a lot of things. :)

hS

[Boromir88]

Thanks for this information. Here, have some more of my money. :rolleyes: :cool:

I'm with Huey on being excited about the additional details on Numenor.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Oooooooh...

Can you share any more details on that? The title is intriguing, but could mean a lot of things. :)

hS

During the later part of the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien found that in order to keep all of his characters' movements synchronized - always with scrupuolus care to travel distances - he had to come up with a 'synoptic' time-scheme in multiple columns, which day by day related in brief what everyone was doing. In many cases this is stuff which never made it into print, since it was all happening offstage. That first chronology was replaced by a second as the story developed, and that by yet a third, which was done after the story was finished probably during the first phase of work on what became the Appendices. This is a fascinating document, never before published; and although I finished my annotated edition of it aeons ago I'm still struggling with the accompanying commentary-- not helped at all by Covid having locked down Marquette's archives.

[Huinesoron]

During the later part of the writing of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien found that in order to keep all of his characters' movements synchronized - always with scrupuolus care to travel distances - he had to come up with a 'synoptic' time-scheme in multiple columns, which day by day related in brief what everyone was doing. In many case this is stuff which never made it into print, since it was all happening offstage. That first chronology was replaced by a second as the story developed, and that by yet a third, which was done after the story was finished probably during the first phase of work on what became the Appendices. This is a fascinating document, never before published; and although I finished my annotated edition of it aeons ago I'm still struggling with the accompanying commentary-- not helped at all by Covid having locked down Marquette's archives.

Oooooooooooooh...

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Here's a taste:

[Tolkien] began with linear time-schemes, that is, listing all of each day’s events in a single sequence. As the story grew in narrative complexity, however, these proved inadequate and therefore, as he began what is now Book V in October 1944, chronological discrepancies which had crept into the text led him to make a time-scheme in parallel columns, allowing him day by day to drive abreast the actions of his various groups of characters. This first ‘synoptic’ chronology, which Christopher Tolkien designated S, petered out as Book V developed during 1946 and was replaced by another, which I will refer to as S2. S2 remained the working chronology through at least April 1948 (there is a dated note) and almost certainly until after the completion of the story that summer, although the time-scheme itself breaks off after the Battle of the Pelennor. S2 then served as the vehicle for Tolkien’s conversion of the calendar, which had been the Gregorian throughout the writing of the book, to the new Shire-reckoning. The final Chronology, S3, was the third and last of these ‘synoptic’ schemes, written most probably toward the end of the first phase of work on the Appendices circa 1949-50, and definitely after the first draft of the narrative had been completed. Even at this time the chronology was not settled, and Tolkien altered things to his satisfaction in both the creation of, and later emendations to, S3 which in turn led to revisions in the text.

Each of the three synoptic time-schemes can be associated with a major chronological upheaval: S with the adjustments required in October 1944; S2 with the addition of a month passing while the Fellowship was in Lórien; and S3 with Tolkien’s postponement of the Battle of the Pelennor and the consequent reworking of all the many threads converging on Minas Tirith. A further major upheaval, carried out by corrections to S2 and embodied in S3, was the conversion of the calendar to Shire-reckoning. The end result was the published text of The Lord of the Rings and a chronology consistent at all points, save a few small oversights, with Appendix B, ‘The Tale of Years.’ S3 is the precursor to the very compressed ‘The Great Years’ section of Appendix B; the dates and events (almost) entirely accord with it and indeed many of the published entries read as if they were abridged directly from those given here. Although there almost certainly must have been an intermediate stage, none of the surviving draft texts of ‘The Tale of Years’ have any section comparable to ‘The Great Years,’ merely annalistic entries for 3018 and 3019, and if such an intermediate stage existed it is now lost.

The ready availability of Appendix B does not render this Chronology a mere draft or curiosity! S3 can be said to represent, despite its laconic mode, Tolkien’s most complete accounting of the incidents of the great tale, not only those related in the narrative but also those transpiring offstage. It was intended as a final version: ‘canonical,’ for those who like the term. It contains a very great deal of information not found in the Appendices which is of remarkable interest; this is especially the case with regard to actions and motivations which occur for the most part in the background during The Lord of the Rings. Only here, for example, do we learn that...

[Rhun charioteer]

I'm looking forward to this!

[Saurondil]

As in, actually by JRR Tolkien, not just about him.

The Nature of Middle-earth is a collection of late writings, in both the metaphysical and literal senses of the title: Tolkien's musings on the cosmology of his creation, as well as its biosphere. The collection, edited by Carl F. Hostetter (our own Aelfwine), was authorized by the late Christopher Tolkien before his death and can be viewed as a sort of 13th volume of The History of Middle Earth.

Scheduled for release in the spring of 2021.
I am really looking forward to this……

[Saurondil]

To which perhaps could be added The Chronology of the Lord of the Rings, hopefully to appear in Tolkien Studies before long.
How can one avoid missing that ?

[paulag]

I wonder if there's anything significant in here that hasn't been publisheded. I'm always up for more lore stuff but it seems like most of Tolkien's major writings are already out.
I'm still going to buy it though.

_________________________________
onplanners (https://onplanners.com/planners/best-food-planners-healthy-eating)

[Inziladun]

I wonder if there's anything significant in here that hasn't been published. I'm always up for more lore stuff but it seems like most of Tolkien's major writings are already out.
I'm still going to buy it though.

Who can say? The level of one's interest in the book may depend on what in particular attracts one to Tolkien to start.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This is all new material, not a repackaging. As CT said when HME XII came out, "The well is not quite dry. But I have gone on for long enough."

[Kuruharan]

This is all new material, not a repackaging. As CT said when HME XII came out, "The well is not quite dry. But I have gone on for long enough."

After this next book, how much unpublished material remains?

[Huinesoron]

This is all new material, not a repackaging. As CT said when HME XII came out, "The well is not quite dry. But I have gone on for long enough."

The news articles I've seen sort of imply it's a "History of the Unfinished Tales; my memory is that most of UT wasn't covered in HoME, so that certainly makes sense.

hS

[Inziladun]

The news articles I've seen sort of imply it's a "History of the Unfinished Tales; my memory is that most of UT wasn't covered in HoME, so that certainly makes sense.

UT has always been highly enjoyable reading for me, so I'm very much on board.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

From the publisher's blurb: First ever publication of J.R.R. Tolkien’s final writings on Middle-earth, covering a wide range of subjects and perfect for those who have read and enjoyed The Silmarillion, The Lord of the Rings, Unfinished Tales, and The History of Middle-earth, and want to learn more about Tolkien’s magnificent world.

It is well known that J.R.R. Tolkien published The Hobbit in 1937 and The Lord of the Rings in 1954–5. What may be less known is that he continued to write about Middle-earth in the decades that followed, right up until the years before his death in 1973.

For him, Middle-earth was part of an entire world to be explored, and the writings in The Nature of Middle-earth reveal the journeys that he took as he sought to better understand his unique creation. From sweeping themes as profound as Elvish immortality and reincarnation, and the Powers of the Valar, to the more earth-bound subjects of the lands and beasts of Númenor, the geography of the Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor, and even who had beards!

This new collection, which has been edited by Carl F Hostetter, one of the world’s leading Tolkien experts, is a veritable treasure-trove offering readers a chance to peer over Professor Tolkien’s shoulder at the very moment of discovery: and on every page, Middle-earth is once again brought to extraordinary life.

And a statement by Carl H:
I cannot yet speak to the contents in specifics, but let me dispel this speculation now. It is true that The Nature of Middle-earth will contain some primary material that was previously published in specialist journals; but the vast majority of the material is previously unpublished.

Note: The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor was frequently referenced by CT in HME; title notwithstanding, it's less about the geography than the names. Tolkien be Tolkien. (Excerpts were published in the linguistic journal Vinyar Tengwar)

[Elemmakil]

Looks like this won't release until June 2021, so a little delayed. I went ahead and placed a pre-order on Amazon.

[Formendacil]

I was just thinking of this book, and how its timing (I was still thinking of "spring, 2021") would line up nicely with this mini-Downs revival, but, alas, a check of the release date now says September 2, 2021.

Mind you, I do enjoy a nice getaway book for Labour Day.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I was just thinking of this book, and how its timing (I was still thinking of "spring, 2021") would line up nicely with this mini-Downs revival, but, alas, a check of the release date now says September 2, 2021.

Mind you, I do enjoy a nice getaway book for Labour Day.

We just need to keep this party going over summer :smokin:

[Huinesoron]

Saw this a little while back and have just spent 20 minutes hunting it back down: an interview with Hostetter (https://tolkienista.com/2021/07/16/from-linguistics-to-metaphysics-interview-with-carl-f-hostetter-editor-of-the-new-book-by-j-r-r-tolkien/) from July of this year, which discusses the book. Excerpts:

Though I wasn’t aware of it at the time, I started work on what would become The Nature of Middle-earth nearly 25 years ago, when I received a bundle of photocopies that Christopher Tolkien referred to as “late philological essays”. From this bundle I edited and published three texts in Vinyar Tengwar, that are also included (in more-or-less-differently edited form) in NoMe: “Ósanwe-kenta” (1998), “Notes on Órë” (2000), and “The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor” (2001). Some time after this, Christopher asked me to help the French scholar [Michaël Devaux] edit a set of late writings on Elvish reincarnation, which were eventually published in the journal La Feuille de la Compagnie vol. 3 in 2014, and will likewise be included in NoMe.

At long last, 'Owanwe-kenta' and 'Rivers and Beacon-hills' in accessible form! I've seen mention that the reincarnation writings have only been published in French before, so that's exciting. And - we have an abbreviation, straight from the editor's mouth. How appropriate that the last Christopher-era Tolkien book will be called (g)NoMe.

I can say that The Nature of Middle-earth will appeal most to those who enjoy the descriptive and historical parts of Unfinished Tales, as well as those who enjoy Morgoth’s Ring.

Well, MR is the best of the non-narrative HoME books, so I'm with him there. :D From the way he talks in the interview, I think there's less chance we'll be seeing drafts, so those hints about Numenor in earlier press releases could well be new material rather than early versions of the 'Description'. Which would be cool!

Current publication date is still 2nd September this year (er... a month away!). Oddly enough, that's the same date, though a year earlier, as the Amazon series airs. ... okay, so it's the anniversary of Tolkien's death, that's slightly grim. HoME XII was published on the same date in 1996, so I guess there's a tradition to be followed.

hS

[Galin]

A preview if the link works.


https://preview.aer.io/The_Nature_of_Middleearth-NDAxNzU2?social=1&retail=1&emailcap=0

:)

[Mithalwen]

Ooh something to look forward too- I love Unfinished Tales perhaps best of all, which I know is a bit silly as it is dependent on the main texts but I love the minutiae and exploring vistas.

Incidentally am a little amused by references to HoME XIII -I bought the overall index so I already have 13 vols

[Huinesoron]

A preview if the link works.

https://preview.aer.io/The_Nature_of_Middleearth-NDAxNzU2?social=1&retail=1&emailcap=0

:)

So what is that site? Because it doesn't seem to be connected to Harper Collins, and the preview is... pretty extensive. Which is cool, but... there's a month still before the book comes out, why can I read dozens of pages?

... also, why in those dozens of pages am I finding that Tolkien thought it was a good idea to keep Elvish women pregnant for nine Years of the Sun? That's just O.O.

hS

[Galin]

Hmm. I didn't really take the time to notice. Someone posted it elsewhere and I posted it here.

I hope it's legal. I too was a bit surprised at the number of pages.

[Galin]

Contents:

https://books.google.fr/books?id=MDQKEAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Galadriel and Celeborn!

[Huinesoron]

Contents:

https://books.google.fr/books?id=MDQKEAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Galadriel and Celeborn!

Weirdly, it initially showed me the full contents list, but has now trimmed it down to the first page... ANYWAY, the most intriguing looking ones were things like "Descriptions of Characters", "Dwellings in Middle-earth", and "Note on the Consumption of Mushrooms" (;)). Also "Note on Dwarvish Voices", which, I can't even imagine what would be in that.

The early sections seem to have a /lot/ of stuff on how he imagined the early reproduction rates of the elves, so I guess we'll conclusively be able to answer "were Finwe et al Unborn Quendi?"

(I can't remember what they were, but there were so many chapters which seemed to imply an answer to one of the Frequent Debates that I was surprised not to see "The nature of Bombadil and a precise physical description of balrogs" in there...)

hS

[Huinesoron]

I've uploaded an image of the contents list (https://imgur.com/qdRQow4), in case Google Books mucks anyone else around. Some more intriguing ones:

-Parts of the 'Generational Schemes' are visible in the various previews, and include lists of precisely when the later generations of Quendi were born. I also saw a note that the first generation ("Seniors") refused to go on the Great March, which is fascinating. Looking forward to burrowing into the details.

-'Elvish Life-Cycles' might include some stuff about the mysterious second and third stages in which elves grow beards.

-'Beauty and Goodness' has the potential to be either really enlightening or really uncomfortable. Given the existence of Sauron, and of "looks foul but feels fair", I hope for the former.

-'Gender and Sex' is interesting, because even if it's Hostetter's wording, it implies a separation on Tolkien's part. Best guess is that he's talking about gender roles - ie, more on 'women make lembas and tend to do healing'.

-'Descriptions of characters' is seven pages long! Could it be a note to an illustrator, like the notes for the Baynes map? Will Tolkien actually describe any characters, or just go on about how they 'feel'?

-'Mind-pictures'? Colour me intrigued.

-'The visible forms of the Valar and Maiar' could be a second descriptive piece, or could be philosophical musings on what their substance was.

-'Note on Elvish Economy': clearly all those early Gnomish words like 'lawyer' and 'slave' are about to become very important! :D

-'Dwellings in Middle-earth' could be locations, or types of houses.

-'The Founding of Nargothrond' I love because Nargothrond.

-'Of the Land and Beasts of Numenor' is 11 pages long! A substantial description.

-'Note on the Consumption of Mushrooms' is undoubtedly the most important piece in the entire book. :D

-'Galadriel and Celeborn' is ten pages which will undoubtedly just confuse things the more. I'm betting Galadriel is now Finwe's daughter who sailed to Middle-earth and back before the Noldolante, and Celeborn is a Silvan elf from over the mountains who crossed them by himself to meet her because Fate. ;)

-'Note on Dwarvish Voices' is only a page long, but, like... what could it say? It's be hilarious if it was just "Memo: the dwarves DO NOT sound like Disney's."

And I'm sure there'll be more once we actually get the book... only a month to go!

hS

[mhagain]

I'm hugely stoked for this.

Two intriguing tidbits from the preview are indications that it was Sauron, not Melkor, at the original Fall of Men, and that Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe were not first generation Elves, both of which have been long-standing personal deductions of mine, but until now with nothing explicit in any writing of Tolkien to back them up.

[Galin]

'Descriptions of characters' is seven pages long! Could it be a note to an illustrator, like the notes for the Baynes map? Will Tolkien actually describe any characters, or just go on about how they 'feel'?


My guess here is that it's JRRT's reaction to the characters from this map. We've had some bits already, but again,
just a guess of course.


'Galadriel and Celeborn' is ten pages which will undoubtedly just confuse things the more. I'm betting Galadriel is now Finwe's daughter who sailed to Middle-earth and back before the Noldolante, and Celeborn is a Silvan elf from over the mountains who crossed them by himself to meet her because Fate. ;)

Yikes. In my excitement I didn't notice it was ten pages.

Maybe the font is huge ;)

[Inziladun]

I received my copy late last night. Looking forward to getting into it. :)

[Huinesoron]

Swiped the last copy in the bookshop today and I'm, uh, already halfway through. :D There's a LOT in there. Are we
.. does the Downs do spoiler warnings or anything? I guess it's been a long time since there was last actual new Tolkien that could be spoiled!

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

There is some truly amazing stuff in here. No detailed comments yet, lest SPOILERS

[Galin]

Just read the brief The Founding of Nargothrond!

Loved it!

[Galadriel55]

test


Aha! It works! Same code as for bolding, but replace the B with "spoiler". To read text, highlight it.

Cheers!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

All right: just to disturb the 'canonicity' applecart further: Gil-galad's name, in very late (ca 1969) writing, was Finwain. Which raises new questions about his parentage.

Another: the Great Eagles were, explicitly, Maiar in bird-form

And this: to answer long speculation, Cirdan was definitely not one of the "first Elves" who awoke beside Cuivienen, because all of that first generation refused to go on the Journey and became Avari

[Huinesoron]

All right: just to disturb the 'canonicity' applecart further: Gil-galad's name, in very late (ca 1969) writing, was Finwain. Which raises new questions about his parentage.

Also Finellach in another text, ca. 1965 (Of the Lands and Beasts of Numenor), though apparently this was already in HoME XII. I'd interpret Finwain as Young Finwe.

There's so much in here! The evolution of the timelines and generations is a study in itself, though for 'canonicity' purposes there's one text which falls a decade later than the rest. Certain chunks of it are very much "The History of Unfinished Tales", and Hostetter makes it very clear where this is the case; but the bulk of it is entirely new.

I'm finding the most fascinating bits not to be the big picture stuff and the philosophy - though there's some that I will definitely come back to - but the little nuggets of trivia you stumble onto along the way. My favourites so far:

- Generational Schemes, p. 128 - the family tree of Ingwe! For the first time, we have his father Ilion - 4th gen descendent of Iminye - his wife Ilwen, and his son Ingwil, brother of Indis.

- Key Dates, p. 95 - that the Eldar at Cuivienen were watched over by the future Istari, with new names, plus Melian - 'the only woman, but the chief'.

- Beards, p 187 - that Radagast 'had only short, curling, light brown hair on his chin'.

- Hair, p. 186 - that Ingwe had curly hair! Presumably this carries over in some measure to his descendents. Oh, and Gil-Galad had silver hair - as William Cloud Hicklin says, up goes the applecart again!

- Elvish ages and Numenorean, p. 152 - that at one point, Tolkien considered making Galadriel Celeborn's second wife!

And it just goes on and on! The entertainment habits of the Numenoreans - what happened to Finrod when he was building Nargothrond - less embarrassing names for Elmo and Teleporno - there's so much in here. I love it. It's mad.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

also, that Ingwe was Imin's great-grandson. And confirmation that Aragorn, Denethor, Boromir and Faramir were all genetically beardless. (Take that, Viggo's designer scruff!)

[Huinesoron]

also, that Ingwe was Imin's great-grandson.

Someone's going to have to try and figure out the order of the generational schemes and timelines, if we want to know Tolkien's final position. I think they're all listed as 'ca. 1959'.

Tolkien gives 14 detailed timelines/generation schemes around Cuivienen:

- One in The March of the Quendi (ca. 1959)
- Three in Key Dates (early 1959)
- Two in Calculation of the Increase of the Quendi (ca. 1959)
- One in A Generational Scheme (mid 1959)
- Seven(!) in Generational Schemes (summer 1959)

CH indicates a connection between the final scheme in Key Dates and the first one in Calculation..., and the phrasing of The March... suggests it comes pretty early, so it looks like the Generational Schemes are Tolkien's final thoughts. In which case Ingwe is the 24th generation from Imin!

EDIT: One that sneaks under the radar because the pieces are in the wrong order... per The Numenorean Catastrophe..., Valinor "should remain a physical landmass (America!)... it would just become an ordinary land...". Which means that, per The Making of Lembas, lembas is (unleavened) cornbread!

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Nah, wheat (explicitly). Don't be fooled by UK usage "corn" = "any grain"

I can testify that ca. 1969 Britons simply didn't eat maize/sweet corn - except those who had lived among Americans.

[Huinesoron]

Nah, wheat (explicitly). Don't be fooled by UK usage "corn" = "any grain"

I can testify that ca. 1969 Britons simply didn't eat maize/sweet corn - except those who had lived among Americans.

Disagree. Not on the second, but the first. :) Tolkien specifically refers to it (3:IV, Text 2) as "Western Corn", and the text comes well after the apparent decision regarding the 'end of "physical" Aman' in 3:XV. We'd need to demonstrate that the idea in 3:XV was actually rejected to make the maize idea untenable.

We know that this idea of non-native species needing to be introduced was one Tolkien considered - a very similar situation arises with rabbits and chickens in 3:XIII (Of the Land and Beasts of Numenor), and CH highlights that this is because they were not present in NW Europe at that time. The way 3:IV ([i]Lembas[i]) both introduces and removes "Western Corn" looks like a very strong case to me.

The explicit use of "wheat-corn" comes from a hastily hand-written note, and is immediately after an unclear word. It's entirely possible this actually reads "sweet-corn" in the original!

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Disagree. Not on the second, but the first. :) Tolkien specifically refers to it (3:IV, Text 2) as "Western Corn", and the text comes well after the apparent decision regarding the 'end of "physical" Aman' in 3:XV. We'd need to demonstrate that the idea in 3:XV was actually rejected to make the maize idea untenable.

We know that this idea of non-native species needing to be introduced was one Tolkien considered - a very similar situation arises with rabbits and chickens in 3:XIII (Of the Land and Beasts of Numenor), and CH highlights that this is because they were not present in NW Europe at that time. The way 3:IV ([i]Lembas[i]) both introduces and removes "Western Corn" looks like a very strong case to me.

The explicit use of "wheat-corn" comes from a hastily hand-written note, and is immediately after an unclear word. It's entirely possible this actually reads "sweet-corn" in the original!

hS

While the essay "On Lembas" in HME XII is earlier than these, sometime in the 1950s, (I am inclined to later rather than earlier, with or after the later part of the Narn), nothing in it contradicts these new writings, including the use of "corn" and the fact that it was brought from the West by a Vala and was not native to Middle-earth. Yet the description of the plant is unmistakably wheat, not maize.

Note also that Lembas was already known to the Eldar in the First Age, long before the "mortalization" of Aman (if we were to accept that this very late notion was ever more than a notion), and Text 2 states that the Exiled Noldor brought it with them. In other words, it could hardly be other than "the tall wheat of the Gods" (Sil), a divine variant of wheat which was no more found in M-E than were horses like Nahar.

But most of all: Text I explicitly calls it wheat, and where 2 calls it "wheat-corn" there is no way that this is a misreading of T's handwriting, since Text 2 was typed!

(It seems that Yavanna or the Elves of Eressea also brought tobacco, at least as far as Numenor!)

[Huinesoron]

But most of all: Text I explicitly calls it wheat, and where 2 calls it "wheat-corn" there is no way that this is a misreading of T's handwriting, since Text 2 was typed!


Timeline time!

- HoME XII, "Of Lembas" - fine handwritten manuscript; late 1950s, as you say. The grain is named as "corn", and described as having "great golden ears" and "white haulm", which seems to just mean the stalks (ie, to make hay/straw). It is noted as fairly hardy, but in a magical sort of way (can grow in anything short of frost, but not if the wind blows from Utumno).

Is it the "haulm" that identifies this as wheat? I don't think anything else there does, but grains are hardly my field!

- NoME, "The Numenorean Catastrophe" - hastily written in black pen, ca. 1959. Tolkien concludes that "I think now that it is best that [Aman] should remain a physical landmass (America!) [sic]. [...] The flora and fauna (even if different in some [?items] from those of Middle-earth) would become ordinary beasts and plants with usual conditions of mortality."

IE: Any distinctive Western species would remain distinct, except that they would become mortal. This implies that eg llamas, redwoods, and maize all previously existed in Aman. It does not mean that wheat did not - it could simply have gone extinct after the Downfall.

My argument is that after this point Tolkien may have come to consider Lembas to be made from maize, not wheat. There would have been no reason to beforehand!

- NoME, "The Making of Lembas", Text 1 - 'extracted from a larger typescript text', ca. 1968. The grain in Lembas is named as wheat.

Interestingly, the word for bread (C.E. khaba) is said to refer originally to most vegetable foods, but "after the coming of corn [= wheat here] was restricted to those made from grain". That kind of implies they had other grains? I'm imagining the Eldar viewing oatmeal and bread as 'basically the same thing, right?'. :D

- NoME, "The Making of Lembas", Text 2 - 'a hastily written note in black ink', ca. 1968. Seems to be written immediately after Text 1. Says that lembas is made from "meal [?ground] wheat-corn", and then coins the term "Western Corn". Western Corn is now said to have trouble in dim sunlight (different to the HoME XII reference, though maybe still magical). It is also extinct in Middle-earth - twice, actually, it runs out before the Eldar reach Beleriand, is restored by the Noldor, and finally dies out when Galadriel and Arwen leave/die in the Fourth Age.

- NoME, "Note on Elvish Economy" - neat(?) text in black nib-pen, ca. 1968; the paper it's on dates to a month later than those used in the Lembas texts. Talks about Valinorean agriculture, and states that "The grain (of some kind not native to Middle-earth*) was self-sown, and only needed gathering and the scattering of 1/10 (the tithe of Yavanna) of the seed on the field. [...] *From it was descended the grain for lembas."

So the Valinorean grain (not here named as wheat or corn) is definitely a "different kind" to Middle-earth grains. It's hard not to think of the Biblical use of "kind" to mean, roughly, "species" here, but I can't guarantee that's what he meant. If it is, then "Western Corn" is definitely not wheat.

Do wheat or maize self-sow? This article (https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/rain-boosts-self-sown-wheat-ng-ya-388914) suggests that wheat can, but implies it's not particularly efficient; maize (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize) does not, but is noted as coming from a naturally-propagating ancestor.

I don't think this is particularly conclusive either way; for sure, lembas was originally conceived as being made from magic wheat, but the late '50s onwards is when Tolkien was trying to reconcile his Legendarium with the real world! He goes out of his way (NoME, "Of the Land and Beasts of Numenor") to note that the golden trees of Numenor are not magical, despite the Numenoreans thinking they are; he specifically says that certain anachronistic species are not present where they shouldn't be. If (and it's a big if, I know) he stuck with the "Aman becomes America" idea, then I think his use of "Western Corn" is a strong indication that he meant, well, Western Corn.

Are there any text later than NoME "The Numenorean Catastrophe" which discuss the Downfall? Skimming "Myths Transformed", there's a mention in HoME X "Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion" stating that "Aman was removed from the physical world", but CT tentatively dates this to the earlier parts of the transformation period; in fact, I wonder if NoME "The Numenorean Catastrophe" isn't a direct response to it! That text almost begins with "It was physical. Therefore it could not be removed".

HoME X "Aman and Mortal Men" was originally part of the Athrabeth, dated by CT to 1959 (possibly late in the year), so could postdate the NoME text (or rather be written at the same time - the NoME text actually references the Athrabeth!). In discussing conditions in Aman, it says "If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World..." This kind of implies that Aman was not physically removed but otherwise remained the same. It would tie in nicely with "The Numenorean Catastrophe"'s apparent conclusion that the physical Aman became America, while the state of Aman became a place of memory. The Eldar, in the Third Age and onwards, became "fear housed only in memory until the true End of Arda" when they passed over the Sea.

One final clue comes from NoME "Elvish Reincarnation", Text 2, dated to 1959 or later. In a note that CT refers to in HoME X, he says that "of course the exact nature of existence in Aman or Eressea after its 'removal' must be dubious and unexplained. Also how 'mortals' could go there at all! The latter not very difficult. Eru commited the Dead of mortals also to Mandos. They waited then a while in recollection before going to Eru. The sojourn of say Frodo in Eressea... was only an extended form of this. [...] So that the sailing on ship was equivalent to death." The context is of a houseless fea reclothing itself in memory, so this seems to fit nicely with the "Numenorean Catastrophe" version.

... unfortunately, none of it says anything about whether the physical continent of Aman was left in place (as America), or simply deleted from the world! Given that in the late '60s (NoME "Dark and Light") he was apparently making the world an elliptical spheroid, I really have no idea what he was thinking.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

- HoME XII, "Of Lembas" - fine handwritten manuscript; late 1950s, as you say. The grain is named as "corn", and described as having "great golden ears" and "white haulm", which seems to just mean the stalks (ie, to make hay/straw). It is noted as fairly hardy, but in a magical sort of way (can grow in anything short of frost, but not if the wind blows from Utumno).

Is it the "haulm" that identifies this as wheat? I don't think anything else there does, but grains are hardly my field!

It also says that both were gathered by hand, and no metal tools were used in the process. You can't do this with maize, trust me; those stalks are brutally thick. And the "haulm" or leftover stalks is nowhere close to white, but a muddy yellowish brown, and useless for straw much less hay. Farmers plow it under.

As to "kind": Maddeningly vague. But it doesn't have to mean species; a Chihuahua is a different "kind" of dog from a Great Dane. Personally I would be very surprised that an Englishman of Tolkien's generation, who never traveled, would have even had a notion that Indian corn was a foodstuff, at least for civilized peoples: as far as he would have been concerned it was merely fodder, only eaten by animals, Red Indians, Americans and other foreign barbarians.

(Much more interesting would be to read T's account of how taters got to Middle-earth)

[Huinesoron]

It also says that both were gathered by hand, and no metal tools were used in the process. You can't do this with maize, trust me; those stalks are brutally thick. And the "haulm" or leftover stalks is nowhere close to white, but a muddy yellowish brown, and useless for straw much less hay. Farmers plow it under.

Excellent; at least that (unfortunately early) source is conclusive! (I wonder if there's "divine wheat" in some Norse myth or something? Scandinavia apparently (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_bread_culture) has several traditional flatbreads, which were sometimes the only meal of the day, so it's a possible inspiration.)

As to "kind": Maddeningly vague. But it doesn't have to mean species; a Chihuahua is a different "kind" of dog from a Great Dane.

Absolutely. But the Biblical use of "kind" stems (partly?) from the Noah story, in which it's hard to imagine God insisting that Noah take 7/2 of every breed of dog! So yeah, it's tempting, but not conclusive.

Personally I would be very surprised that an Englishman of Tolkien's generation, who never traveled, would have even had a notion that Indian corn was a foodstuff, at least for civilized peoples: as far as he would have been concerned it was merely fodder, only eaten by animals, Red Indians, Americans and other foreign barbarians.

"Never travelled"? o.O I mean... even setting aside France and Belgium, he definitely went to Switzerland, because it inspired the slip-slide down the slope in The Hobbit. I'll take your word on maize not being eaten in England at the time, but I think this remains at least a possibility, though of course not conclusive.


(Much more interesting would be to read T's account of how taters got to Middle-earth)

"Taters of Middle-earth", coming from the files of Carl F. Hostetter 2023. :D

(Potatoes, tobacco, and tomatoes are all nightshades, right? Probably the Numenoreans imported all three - potatoes in particular are an amazing food-crop, and while tomatoes only have a tentative existence in M-e they're no more out of place. It seems like all three were mostly found only around the Shire, so it would only take a local outbreak of some virulant tobacco mosaic strain to wipe them from the continent. Bonus points if we can make athelas a nightshade too!)

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Nicotiana has flowering variants which are common garden plants, and it is said that it grew wild in Gondor, having been brought from Numenor for its fragrant flowers (it is not any sort of nightshade)

As for taters: there is however a strong hint in the Narn that potatoes were native to M-E, since it seems that that's what Mim's "earth-bread" was.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"Never travelled"? o.O I mean... even setting aside France and Belgium, he definitely went to Switzerland, because it inspired the slip-slide down the slope in The Hobbit. I'll take your word on maize not being eaten in England at the time, but I think this remains at least a possibility, though of course not conclusive.

hS

Let's rephrase that: was not at all traveled as an adult, that is after his war service in France. He only got a passport in 1949, needing it to go to Dublin as an examiner. He never again left the British Isles, save one vac. in Italy with Priscilla in the 50s, and an overnighter to Rotterdam for a "Hobbit-feast" in his honor. Neither country eats Indian corn, (not then, anyway).

[Huinesoron]

Nicotiana has flowering variants which are common garden plants, and it is said that it grew wild in Gondor, having been brought from Numenor for its fragrant flowers (it is not any sort of nightshade)

It is, of course - genus Nicotiana (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotiana) is in the family Solanaceae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanaceae), AKA the nightshades. It isn't a Solanum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanum_nigrum) or Atropa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atropa_belladonna), though. But until Hostetter brings out the long lost Tolkien Botanical Collection, I don't suppose it really matters. ^_^

Sticking with the plants... NoME "Of the Lands and Beasts of Numenor" describes the trees of both Beleriand (hornbeam, small maple, flowering chestnut) and Numenor (wych-elm, holm-oak, tall maple, sweet chestnut, walnut). Was Tolkien just naming random trees, or are these geographically varied in their natural state?

hS

[Huinesoron]

NOME 3.II "The Primal Impulse" is something of a delight. As a chemist I'm delighted to see Tolkien's thoughts on, essentially, the Big Bang and the philosophy of matter, but as always, the best stuff is in the trivia:

- The Valar refuse to admit that Eru has added anything to the world other than the Children, but the Eldar disagree. "Some of these things that appear suddenly in History and [?continue] then in obedience to Eä (or soon cease to be [?seen]) may indeed be due directly to Eru. (These things are called the signs of the Finger of Eru.)"

- In a discussion of matings between Elves and Men: "this has rarely been done, and as for the High Elves, the Eldar, only twice. In Middle-earth, unless tales be now [? [I wonder if this is 'lost']] thrice: Beren/Luthien, Idril/Tuor, Ancestors of Imrahil. " So yes, that's direct confirmation that there are probably more Half-Elves outside the North-West!

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Interesting, given that by this time he had long determined that the Nandor were indeed Eldar.

[Huinesoron]

Interesting, given that by this time he had long determined that the Nandor were indeed Eldar.

But not High Elves, surely. I thought that was only the Valinoreans and Sindar? Precisely who is Eldar depends on who is speaking... :D

hS

[Galin]

Perhaps Tolkien had recently read Appendix F concerning what Eldar meant :p

Even Christopher Tolkien seems to have been paying Appendix F its due when compiling his "List Of Names In The Tale Of The Children Of Húrin":

"Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand."

Pretty much agrees with Tolkien's published -- never revised -- Eldar: Elves of the Great Journey Over Sea > plus the Sindar "only" -- or "West-Elves" (compare "to Beleriand").

Of course in his introduction to COH, Christopher Tolkien makes the distinction between Eldar and Avari, where his father's distinction in the Appendix was between West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves, in any case. But even so, The Children of Húrin entry for Eldar is, for me, interestingly different from the constructed Silmarillion entry, and the chart (The Sundering Of The Elves), which reflect posthumously published ideas.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But not High Elves, surely. I thought that was only the Valinoreans and Sindar? Precisely who is Eldar depends on who is speaking... :D

hS

Except that in this very quote he wrote "the High Elves, the Eldar." Which if anything is a new use of "High Elves," which in all other cases I can think of is restricted to the Calaquendi, the "High Elves of the West" (and, in Middle-earth, meaning the exiled Noldor).

[Huinesoron]

Except that in this very quote he wrote "the High Elves, the Eldar." Which if anything is a new use of "High Elves," which in all other cases I can think of is restricted to the Calaquendi, the "High Elves of the West" (and, in Middle-earth, meaning the exiled Noldor).

What the heck am I thinking of, then?? I know there's SOME term that means Caliquendi+Sindar, but I can't for the life of me remember what if it's not either High Elves or Eldar.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A puzzle.

In another late text, Of Dwarves and Men, Tolkien contrasts the "High Eldar" of Valinor with the Eldar of Middle-earth; I'm not sure that that distinction appears elsewhere. It also doesn't tell us whether "ordinary lunchpail proletarian Eldar" included the Nandor or not.

Going back to the very beginning, in the Lost Tales, it was easy: Eldar = Elves of Valinor. The rest were all Ilkorindi, "not of Kor." Even the Noldoli/Gnomes dropped out of the Eldar when they came back, to become a third "tribe."

[Galin]

In their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings, Hammond and Scull noted:

"Elsewhere Tolkien equates Eldar with the High Elves ( . . . ) or defines the term more narrowly as "the West-elves" in contrast to the "East-elves", . . .).

There seems to be two definitions of High Elf: one (and the one seemingly more frequently employed by Tolkien) is equivalent to Tareldar -- and with respect to Middle-earth at least, the Tareldar are the returned Noldor.

Another use of the term "High Elves" seems to be basically equivalent to Eldar however, and thus includes the Sindar
-- at least arguably, given:

"In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established
. . ."

Appendix B, Tale of Years


When Tolkien originally wrote the passage with Gildor, Frodo knew these were "High Elves" seemingly due to the name Elbereth. Yet the Sindar use this name, and the name is Sindarin. And if I read the signs rightly, when Tolkien wrote this passage the name Elbereth was "Noldorin" not Sindarin > in any case, after Tolkien changed the linguistic scenario we still have Frodo saying these are High Elves, as if Sindarin Elbereth is a sign of this. Some might say Tolkien forgot to revise Frodo's remark, but in my opinion it still works, given the suggestion from Appendix B.

Of course Gildor and Company turn out to be Exiles anyway, but Frodo's implication with respect to the name Elbereth need not be wrong.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

When Tolkien originally wrote the passage with Gildor, Frodo knew these were "High Elves" seemingly due to the name Elbereth. Yet the Sindar use this name, and the name is Sindarin. And if I read the signs rightly, when Tolkien wrote this passage the name Elbereth was "Noldorin" not Sindarin > in any case, after Tolkien changed the linguistic scenario we still have Frodo saying these are High Elves, as if Sindarin Elbereth is a sign of this. Some might say Tolkien forgot to revise Frodo's remark, but in my opinion it still works, given the suggestion from Appendix B.

Of course Gildor and Company turn out to be Exiles anyway, but Frodo's implication with respect to the name Elbereth need not be wrong.

Yes, it all still works. Tolkien had covered most of his bases with Thingol's Edict and the Noldor adopting Sindarin for everyday speech. The invocation of Varda Tintalle, by any name, still marks them out as Tareldar even before Gildor says so.

But it doesn't help us in figuring out how to class the Nandor.

[Galin]

The Nandor dilemma as I see it, with respect to them being Eldar or not.

According to Appendix F, most of the Elves of Lorien and Mirkwood were East-elves, whose languages were not-Eldarin. And we can hardly say that JRRT forgot this section entirely for the revised edition, as he added a footnote to try to
re-characterize this very thing about the speech of the Elves of Lorien specifically . . . that is, "now" these Elves speak an Eldarin tongue (Sindarin), but with an accent.

I'm not sure how well this holds up with what is said in the Lorien chapters though. Frodo was not the only one that could be misled by an accent. "They had little speech with any of the Elven-folk; for few of these spoke any but their own silvan tongue." "Silvan tongue" aside, did their speech mislead Aragorn and Boromir too? And often "they" (the companions) heard nearby Elvish voices singing, but if Legolas was with the Company "he would not interpret the songs for them"

Again, if these Elves were speaking Sindarin with an accent, is the suggestion, at least, that even Aragorn was not getting it? Or Boromir?

Possible.

Or are we now supposed to imagine that some in Lorien spoke a Silvan Tongue, others Sindarin with an accent?

Or . . . just call it Silvan Elvish ;)


Anyway, in some posthumously published texts, and thus in the constructed Silmarillion, the Nandor are Eldarin, but this contradicts Appendix F (see below), and given CJRT's later entry in COH (at least one of the entries!) he seems to want to "return" to a definition more in line with what his father actually published. But instead of using that "five letter word" (canon), I'll put it this way, similar to what was done with the Lost Tales: in the tales Tolkien himself published it was easy:

Eldar = West Elves = Elves who passed Over Sea plus the Sindar only. And the languages of The East Elves (most of the Elven Folk of Mirkwood and Lorien) were not Eldarin -- makes sense, they weren't Eldar.


Less easy perhaps (second edition), as noted, JRRT adds that Sindarin was spoken in Lorien at least, but with an accent: "And this "accent" and his own limited acquaintance with Sindarin misled Frodo." Cough. Okay. But the idea still remains that these East-elves are not Eldar, even if they learned an Eldarin tongue.

[Huinesoron]

Help, someone can't count.

In NoME 1.XIII, "Key Dates", Text 1 is Tolkien's final timeline of the Awakening to the March. It matches up nicely with his final Generational Scheme (1.XVII, scheme 7), so we can be confident it's actually final.

Tolkien gives the date of the Awakening as VY 850/1 - ie, the first sun-year of the 850th Valian Year, a Valian Year being 144 sun-year. He also gives the date as First Age 1. Fine.

The Finding of the elves is also fixed. It takes place in the last sun-year of 864 (ie, 864/144), with events after this all being in 865. And again, he gives a First Age date: 2016.

Except, ummm. 2016 = 144 x 14, so comes 14 VY after FA1. One VY after 850/1 is 851/1; two is 852/1; you can follow the pattern up, and 2016 = 864/1, not 864/144 or even 865/1.

Hostetter usually notes Tolkien's mathematical errors, but let's this one pass silently. Tolkien continues to use 864/144 as the date of the Finding, with all later dates based on this - this definitely isn't a printing error. So I have to wonder if I'm the one who's wrong, messing up either my maths or my reading.

Help help, who can't count: Huinesoron off the Internet, or JRR Tolkien and one of his foremost scholars?

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

All his life, Tolkien was prone to making "fencepost errors" or what IT types call "off-by-one" errors. They plagued his work on the Lord of the Rings' chronology. This is another example.