New Tolkien coming!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I am pleased to be able to announce that Tolkien Studies has accepted my edition of JRRT's "Chronology of the Lord of the Rings" for publication. This is the manuscript from which Hammond and Scull quoted excerpts in their LR Reader's Companion, under the name of "Scheme," and the frontispiece to that volume is one of its pages.

No release date has been set.

[Huinesoron]

Oh yes! You mentioned this in the thread about the Hostetter book, and I made 'oooooh' noises. :D So (forgive my academic-publishing illiteracy!) is the expectation that it will appear in the Tolkien Studies journal, or is there some other way in which it will be published?

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

That's unclear. Currently the editors are putting TS 18 to bed, and it will come later; but whether it will have to wait for TS 19 next year or will get a special issue to itself has yet to be determined.

[R.R.J Tolkien]

I am pleased to be able to announce that Tolkien Studies has accepted my edition of JRRT's "Chronology of the Lord of the Rings" for publication. This is the manuscript from which Hammond and Scull quoted excerpts in their LR Reader's Companion, under the name of "Scheme," and the frontispiece to that volume is one of its pages.

No release date has been set.

congrats.

[Morthoron]

A hearty congratulations to you, WCH!

[Galin]

Congrats WCH!

I hear it puts an end to the Balrog controversy.

January 25: Gandalf notes that the Balrog doesn't have wings, and casts it down. Gandalf's notebook lies on the peak.

Or something like that ;)

[zionius]

Haha, I learned this a bit late, just one day after I took pains trying to transcribe (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mWOgGHVXcawVKrFqIxai4W9bAiXlUrV-YVGU4FKC9vM/edit?usp=sharing) the page shown in Reader's Companion. Can't wait for the full release!

Could you tease a little bit for me? I'm wondering if the circle beside "March 8" in the scheme represents "Full Moon". And "⊘" beside "March 9" represents Tolkien changed the date of Full Moon.

[Mithadan]

Congratulations!

[Galadriel55]

Congratulations, William! That is fabulous news!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Haha, I learned this a bit late, just one day after I took pains trying to transcribe (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mWOgGHVXcawVKrFqIxai4W9bAiXlUrV-YVGU4FKC9vM/edit?usp=sharing) the page shown in Reader's Companion. Can't wait for the full release!

Could you tease a little bit for me? I'm wondering if the circle beside "March 8" in the scheme represents "Full Moon". And "⊘" beside "March 9" represents Tolkien changed the date of Full Moon.

Yes and yes. JRRT sometimes used drawn symbols and sometimes abbreviations to keep track of lunar phases, but track them he did. I speculate in my paper, just a bit, about that second, deleted moon. That was a very important one, as well: the one which Pippin sees from the back of Shadowfax on the night of the war-beacons, which Frodo sees setting over the Forbidden Pool, and which governs the muster of the Rohirrim.

(BTW, that page is as legible as news headlines compared to a typical page!)

[zionius]

Yes and yes. JRRT sometimes used drawn symbols and sometimes abbreviations to keep track of lunar phases, but track them he did. I speculate in my paper, just a bit, about that second, deleted moon. That was a very important one, as well: the one which Pippin sees from the back of Shadowfax on the night of the war-beacons, which Frodo sees setting over the Forbidden Pool, and which governs the muster of the Rohirrim.

(BTW, that page is as legible as news headlines compared to a typical page!)

Thanks, so glad to learn that!

I can only guess it might track to a note quoted in HoMe7 p. 369:my father wrote at the head of the first page of it: Moons are after 1941-2 + 6 days. He changed this to + 5 days, and added: thus Full Moon Jan. 2 is Jan. 7.

BTW, that easy page already racked my brains, you worked miracle!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Thanks, so glad to learn that!

I can only guess it might track to a note quoted in HoMe7 p. 369:my father wrote at the head of the first page of it: Moons are after 1941-2 + 6 days. He changed this to + 5 days, and added: thus Full Moon Jan. 2 is Jan. 7.

BTW, that easy page already racked my brains, you worked miracle!

Yes, that was the system he used consistently for most of the book, starting I believe at the time he wrote the episode in 'The Great River' where Sam is puzzled by the new moon and the passage of time in Lorien (which was written right at the end of 1941, probably during the Christmas holiday). He even considered but decided against bringing in the real-world lunar eclipse of March 2 1942. Once committed he stayed with it, including revising the moon in the earlier parts of the story... but he couldn't bring himself to delete the striking scene of the waning moon (impossibly) illuminating the west-facing Gates of Moria in the early evening.

[Bêthberry]

I am pleased to be able to announce that Tolkien Studies has accepted my edition of JRRT's "Chronology of the Lord of the Rings" for publication. This is the manuscript from which Hammond and Scull quoted excerpts in their LR Reader's Companion, under the name of "Scheme," and the frontispiece to that volume is one of its pages.

No release date has been set.

How many pages is your edition? It is book length or article length? You had access to the manuscripts at Marquette? So many questions!:)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Not a book, but rather longish to be an article. In fiction terms it might be a novella. I really can't tell how many pages in TS' rather small format it might take up, nor how much prefatory material the editors may add, but in regular letter-size it's around 70 pages single-spaced with narrow margins.

Of course, the bulk of that is my own wittering and footnotes. The actual JRRT Chronology boils down to 15 pages.

Manuscripts at Marquette: well, I have never handled the originals; I was sent photocopies. I was fortunate-- they don't usually allow those out of the stable.

[Bêthberry]

Here's a formal announcement from David Bratman, one of the editors of TS. Congratulations, William Cloud Hicklin.

https://kalimac.blogspot.com/2021/11/tolkien-studies-supplement-announcement.html?fbclid=IwAR1lstFH8J1c59vLm06VyP3 Rnj94J2H5Q-ESyg35HqsBP_x9WDsVS31tghg

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Yes. it's happening. Although not until springtime

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Now that it's officially public, I can talk about what's in it in a bit more detail. This is the third and last of the 'synoptic' time-schemes Tolkien made, in other words using parallel columns to keep track of his various groups of characters. They wind up looking something like calendar pages, grids of boxes. This version, which I have dubbed S3, postdates the completion of the story. That fact I think is important in understanding its nature- it's not a 'working' document, in which we can see him developing his ideas as with the drafts in HME, but more in the nature of a 'reference' document like the Appendices, of which impulse it really was a part, although it was not I believe intended for publication but rather as groundwork for published material.

The first two pages (one leaf), written on 13-inch lined paper in the normal manner, are a linear time-scheme of the story from Hobbiton to the entry into Lorien. The next six (three leaves) use the same paper but are oriented landscape-fashion and divided into columns for the dramatis personae (these change constantly as needed), with a row for each date, January 15 through March 7. The next page, the ninth, followed suit; but it dissolved into a welter of alterations, strikethroughs, insertions, directional arrows and ultimately became such a chaotic mess that Tolkien discarded it (it was found separately in the archives) and replaced it. From this point he used blank pages from exam booklets, his usual medium for drafting. As so often, what had started as a "final" copy had become mere rough work. (It's also possible though that he simply ran out of the other paper!). The new pages 9-11 continue the multicolumn time-scheme through the fall of Sauron on March 25. The verso of 11 was left blank (for now), and 12-14 return to portrait linear mode, there being no need for multiple columns, until Sam's return to Bag End on 6 October 1421. At some time, I am inclined to think much later in around 1954 while working on 'The Great Years,' Tolkien jotted some Appendix B-style entries on the back of p.11, all concerned with global events after the fall of the Dark Tower.

There then follow far more than 15 pages of my own blathering about the above, and an ungodly number of footnotes. The blathering actually covers much more than just this document, because I found myself for better or worse describing the development of all three 'synoptic' chronologies, and their interrelationship to the development of the narrative itself. This applies even to S3: although the story was 'finished,' making S3 caused Tolkien to completely overhaul the week leading up to the Pelennor, and accordingly rewrite all the many, many threads converging on Minas Tirith.

And then there's the matter of converting his calendar post facto from our modern calendar to Shire Reckoning.......

[Voronwë_the_Faithful]

Now that it's officially public, I can talk about what's in it in a bit more detail. This is the third and last of the 'synoptic' time-schemes Tolkien made, in other words using parallel columns to keep track of his various groups of characters. They wind up looking something like calendar pages, grids of boxes. This version, which I have dubbed S3, postdates the completion of the story. That fact I think is important in understanding its nature- it's not a 'working' document, in which we can see him developing his ideas as with the drafts in HME, but more in the nature of a 'reference' document like the Appendices, of which impulse it really was a part, although it was not I believe intended for publication but rather as groundwork for published material.

The first two pages (one leaf), written on 13-inch lined paper in the normal manner, are a linear time-scheme of the story from Hobbiton to the entry into Lorien. The next six (three leaves) use the same paper but are oriented landscape-fashion and divided into columns for the dramatis personae (these change constantly as needed), with a row for each date, January 15 through March 7. The next page, the ninth, followed suit; but it dissolved into a welter of alterations, strikethroughs, insertions, directional arrows and ultimately became such a chaotic mess that Tolkien discarded it (it was found separately in the archives) and replaced it. From this point he used blank pages from exam booklets, his usual medium for drafting. As so often, what had started as a "final" copy had become mere rough work. (It's also possible though that he simply ran out of the other paper!). The new pages 9-11 continue the multicolumn time-scheme through the fall of Sauron on March 25. The verso of 11 was left blank (for now), and 12-14 return to portrait linear mode, there being no need for multiple columns, until Sam's return to Bag End on 6 October 1421. At some time, I am inclined to think much later in around 1954 while working on 'The Great Years,' Tolkien jotted some Appendix B-style entries on the back of p.11, all concerned with global events after the fall of the Dark Tower.

There then follow far more than 15 pages of my own blathering about the above, and an ungodly number of footnotes. The blathering actually covers much more than just this document, because I found myself for better or worse describing the development of all three 'synoptic' chronologies, and their interrelationship to the development of the narrative itself. This applies even to S3: although the story was 'finished,' making S3 caused Tolkien to completely overhaul the week leading up to the Pelennor, and accordingly rewrite all the many, many threads converging on Minas Tirith.

And then there's the matter of converting his calendar post facto from our modern calendar to Shire Reckoning.......

Congratulations! I believe you told me about this a very long time ago, but I might be inventing that in my mind. In any event, I look forward to reading it.

[zionius]

I just noted a somewhat-related trivia: the 1941-2 calendar which JRRT used as the reference for moon phases in his time-schemes, is probably his "Oxford University Pocket Diary, 1941-2" shown in Maker of Middle-earth 246-7. For example, on Jan.16 1942 that diary says: "Sun rises 8.5, sets 4.25. New Moon, 9.32 p.m.", which would correspond to Jan.22 SR1419 New Moon in Time-Scheme III.

[James the Just]

"And then there's the matter of converting his calendar post facto from our modern calendar to Shire Reckoning......"

That's easy. Just assume that First Yule is Christmas Eve and Second Yule is Christmas. It's just a matter of counting the days after that. I thought this was settled a long time ago.
One thing to keep in mind about a new moon is that it's not visible to the naked eye for about 18 hours after the astronomical event. I have a feeling Tolkien didn't realize this when considering what Sam saw. Unless Hobbits have really good eyesight.
The lunar eclipse of the night of Mar 2, 1942 was a central lunar eclipse. These are very deep ones and somewhat rare. The next one visible in Britain didn't occur until 1953.

By the way, the actual date for the Fall of Barad-dûr, if you can accept there is one, is March 13, 4502 BC (Gregorian proleptic).

[zionius]

One thing to keep in mind about a new moon is that it's not visible to the naked eye for about 18 hours after the astronomical event. I have a feeling Tolkien didn't realize this when considering what Sam saw. Unless Hobbits have really good eyesight.

Tolkien in his novels used the traditional definition of New Moon (still in use in Islamic & Hebrew calendars), ie. the earliest visible waxing crescent. The calendar uses the astronomic definition of New Moon, which is about 18~36 hours before the traditional "New Moon". In his timeline he confused the two definitions, so his time from new moon to full moon is 1~2 days shorter than the primary world, and full moon to new moon 1~2 days longer.

[James the Just]

Thank you.
The fact that he used "Oxford University Pocket Diary, 1941-2" is very interesting. You wouldn't have a spare copy, would you?
Is there a chance you might know what kind of maps of Europe he may have used? I'm thinking of something that the maps of Middle-earth might be based on; whether merely a subconscious influence to an outright tracing.

[zionius]

Thank you.
The fact that he used "Oxford University Pocket Diary, 1941-2" is very interesting. You wouldn't have a spare copy, would you?
Is there a chance you might know what kind of maps of Europe he may have used? I'm thinking of something that the maps of Middle-earth might be based on; whether merely a subconscious influence to an outright tracing.

No idea. The only page I know of that diary is the page shown in Maker item 87.

And today I note he might have used another source for his moon rise and fall time (because the 1941-2 diary only shows sun rise and fall time, plus moon phases). That's Marquette MSS-4/2/29/18a shown in Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu Fig.189 ( https://twitter.com/zionius/status/1486565751788310530) It says "based on Moon-hours(?) May 6-15 1944". The date exactly matches Letters no.69 on May 14 1944, where he said he spent hours trying to fix moonrise/set time.
However, the moon rise and fall time recorded in that manuscript doesn't fit the actual time in May 6-15 1944 at all. So I still don't know how he got those numbers.

[James the Just]

I spent a little time trying to solve that mystery. Take a close look at the faintly printed numbers. These match the rise and set times in Oxford from May 6-15 if you subtract exactly 4 hours. Then it appears that a 12:37 time was changed to exactly midnight along with all the other numbers being adjusted by 37 minutes as well. Near the end he seems to make some mistakes in the ordering.
The difference in time between moonrise and moonset varies by latitude so you can be sure that he got his information from a source that calculated it for someplace near Oxford's. The Royal Observatory at Greenwich? London?

https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/uk/oxford?month=5&year=1944

When looking at these numbers keep in mind they might be using double summer time because of the war effort. So initially subtract 6 hours instead of 4.

[zionius]

I spent a little time trying to solve that mystery. Take a close look at the faintly printed numbers. These match the rise and set times in Oxford from May 6-15 if you subtract exactly 4 hours. Then it appears that a 12:37 time was changed to exactly midnight along with all the other numbers being adjusted by 37 minutes as well. Near the end he seems to make some mistakes in the ordering.
The difference in time between moonrise and moonset varies by latitude so you can be sure that he got his information from a source that calculated it for someplace near Oxford's. The Royal Observatory at Greenwich? London?

https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/uk/oxford?month=5&year=1944

When looking at these numbers keep in mind they might be using double summer time because of the war effort. So initially subtract 6 hours instead of 4.

Amazing discovery! I think the time difference between the pencil numbers and actual moonrise & set time is 6 hours. Such as May 11 0:07-8:40 > 6:11-2:41, May 12 1:11-9:31 > 7:11-3:37, etc. The timezone for the date on timeanddate.com seems to be UTC+1, so it's normal daylight saving time.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"And then there's the matter of converting his calendar post facto from our modern calendar to Shire Reckoning......"

That's easy. Just assume that First Yule is Christmas Eve and Second Yule is Christmas. It's just a matter of counting the days after that. I thought this was settled a long time ago.



Except that it isn't that easy; and if one attempts the conversion you describe you can't get from his original Gregorian dates to the finished SR dates.

[James the Just]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Can you give me an example?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

After a couple of false starts, the conversion Tolkien wound up making was March 1 = March 1, with the rest of the calendar extended before and after that pivot-point or fulcrum. In other words, if you were to back-convert Appendix B to Gregorian using either your suggested method, or the 'canonical' Jan 1 = 2 Yule, you won't recreate the Gregorian dates he actually used when writing the book.

There were a couple of reasons why he did so (and he even, for once, left a note), but the primary one was to ensure that Sauron's fall remained on March 25.

OTOH, he had to add a couple of days to the journey from Rivendell to Hollin, to retain the Departure on December 25. While Tolkien was not one to smack the reader in the face with Christian allusions a la Lewis, nonetheless they are in there.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

FWIW, after various COVID and supply-chain related delays, the provisional publication date is now mid-August

[William Cloud Hicklin]

No idea. The only page I know of that diary is the page shown in Maker item 87.

And today I note he might have used another source for his moon rise and fall time (because the 1941-2 diary only shows sun rise and fall time, plus moon phases). That's Marquette MSS-4/2/29/18a shown in Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu Fig.189 ( https://twitter.com/zionius/status/1486565751788310530) It says "based on Moon-hours(?) May 6-15 1944". The date exactly matches Letters no.69 on May 14 1944, where he said he spent hours trying to fix moonrise/set time.
However, the moon rise and fall time recorded in that manuscript doesn't fit the actual time in May 6-15 1944 at all. So I still don't know how he got those numbers.

What's interesting about those slips (there are 3 of them) is that they represent the backs of "City of Oxford Air Raid Precautions Warden's Report Forms"- and in his letter to Christopher he mentions having sat up until 1 am on duty. So I can well imagine he was sorting out his moonrises while sitting, bored to death, in that little sandbagged bunker.

[Inziladun]

What's interesting about those slips (there are 3 of them) is that they represent the backs of "City of Oxford Air Raid Precautions Warden's Report Forms"- and in his letter to Christopher he mentions having sat up until 1 am on duty. So I can well imagine he was sorting out his moonrises while sitting, bored to death, in that little sandbagged bunker.

It's fascinating to think that he was creating such entrancing works while doing mundane tasks.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

On the Project Muse website, where you can pre-order the e-version (available in ca. 2 weeks), and read brief excerpts:

https://muse.jhu.edu/issue/48264

Hard copies from Duke University Press/WVUP should follow in September https://wvupjournals.dukeupress.edu/tolkien-studies

It must be pointed out that it comes as part of an annual subscription which also includes the regular volume of TS, to be published in a few months. Unfortunately, that's rather more costly than I would like (60 USD).

[Faramir Jones]

Congratulations, William Cloud Hicklin, on your work finally appearing! :cool:

As Inziladun said, it's interesting that the Professor was sorting out much of the chronology while 'doing his bit' to protect Oxford during the Second World War:

https://museumofoxford.org/oxford-at-war-in-the-20th-century

https://www.oxford-royale.com/articles/oxford-second-world-war/

[gondowe]

William Cloud Hicklin. Purchased. Congratulations.Excellent work. Thank you very much for your analisys and showing more material from the Professor.

Greetings.

[zionius]

Congratulations, amazing work! So many mysteries are finally solved.
I have a few tiny questions about the transcription part:

The time format is inconsistent, sometimes converted to American style (eg. 3:30) and sometimes not. The MS always used UK style (3.30).
What's the meaning of the multiple asterisks in S3?
p76 what's the meaning of the three left quotation marks?
p82 "17 21". It seems "17" should be crossed out.

Also, I find images of 5 pages of MSS 4/2/18 (pages 3,6,8,9,10), and compared them with your reading:
p44 On the bottom of "17 Tu." cell something was deleted, is it possible to decipher that? Is the deleted word on "18" cell really "LQ"? The MS doesn't look like so to me. (Of course the image I have is very blur so I could probably be wrong) Also, I think Tolkien later rejected moving the boxed cell on Jan 18 to Jan 17, by adding bars on the arrow. So it fixes the inconsistency discussed in footnote 53. (RC 360 also says this event is Jan 18)
p54 Is it possible to decipher the deleted words after "At 8 a.m."?
p64 Missing the full stop at the end of "They camp 20 miles or so on way".
p64 "about 35 m. p. day.[89]" p65 "89. 36 miles per day: see note 99.". It should be both "35".
p66 "and camps 30 miles on way." seems to be "and camps 30 miles east on way." in the MS, which is also the reading in RC 542.
p74 The "F. 16" cell has a deleted "LQ" unmentioned in transcription. Is that connected with the rejected LQ on p44?
p117 "with the moonrise and set times adjusted by 30 minutes". As James the Just said in this thread, I think the adjustment is 37 minutes, or approximately 40m/0.5h. But it can't be approximated to 30m.

Update: I compared the reading in Chronology (C) with the quotes in The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion (3rd ed., RC), and note several tiny differences. Without (or even with) the images it's hard to say which one is correct. Here are them (I have ignored editorial differences such as battlefield/battle field):
RC194: "Glorfindel set out from Rivendell on 9 October." C36 says it's Oct 10, according to footnote 32 Tolkien mistakenly marked it as Oct 9 and then corrected.
RC348: "They pass Gate of Argonath and come to Lake Hithoel (1.30 pm)". C52: "They pass Gate of Argonath and come to Lake Nen Hithoel (1:30 p.m)".
RC360: "Sarn Gebir". C46: "Sarngebir".
RC361: February 23 "The Orcs dismayed, but Grishnákh crosses Anduin and daringly pushes down west shore in pursuit. He believes Coy. is making for Minas Tirith." C53 says this entry was moved to February 24.
RC379: "then need long rest...they can trot ?from 6 mph for about 50 ?miles." C57: "then need a long rest...they can run [?for] 6 mph for about 50 miles."
RC410: "Wormtongue flies to Isengard". C60: "Wormtongue flees to Isengard."
RC455: "Slagmounds". C62: "Slag-mound".
RC484: "see last glimpse of sun". C66: "see last gleam of sun".
RC507: "March 5: 11.30 leaves Dolbaran". C138: "March 5 11.20 leaves Dolbaran"
RC508: "ride 69 miles". C138: "ride 68 miles".
RC508: "Pippin sees moon-rise at 9 pm and". C138: "Pippin sees moon-rise at 9 pm ".
RC508: ", 176 miles from Edoras". C138 says this sentence is rejected.
RC531: "According to [I]Scheme, on 6 March they left Helm's Deep at about 4.00 p.m.,". C64 says it's "1 pm".
RC538: "slowly by hidden path in lower mountains." C64: "steadily by hidden paths in the mountains,".
RC542: "30 miles east on way". C66 "30 miles on way".
RC587: " reaching Calembel on Ciril.". C66: ". Reaches Calembel on Ciril.".
RC620: "Ring destroyed". C78: "Ring is destroyed".
RC639: "July [10>] 18: Éomer returns from Rohan with picked body of Riders.". C82: "July [10>18>] 17 Éomer returns from Rohan with picked body of Riders.", and footnote 130 says the change 18>17 conflicts the text and Appendix B.
RC653: "Scheme notes that the distance from Weathertop to Bree is ninety-five miles." I can't find this info in C.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Zionius, thank you for such a detailed reading! It's very nice to know people are paying attention.

I'll try to address your points in order

1) the "quotation marks" on p. 76 are ditto marks; Tolkien indicating a twice-repeated entry.
2) P. 80: The transcription is correct; in this instance T neglected to cross out 17.
3) p. 44 Tu. 17- two(?) words in faint pencil which have been irrecoverably covered up by the ink. The first might just possibly be "LQ," but that's really a guess. On the 18th it really did say "LQ" before being struck out.
4) p.54 "Is it possible to decipher the deleted words..."- theoretically it might be possible, but it has proved impossible for me!
5) p.64 That is one of a few missing full stops I corrected on the proofs but which the printers were disinclined to fix at the eleventh hour
6) p.64 - 35/36 mpd: that is correct. Here T wrote 35, but in the note referenced in Note 99 it is 36.
7) p.66 Mea culpa! I somehow left out the "east," will have to put out an errata list!
8) p.74 The erroneous "LQ" had been in my original 'diplomatic' transcription, but was among an appreciable number of unimportant errors on Tolkien's part I chose to omit in the published version
9) p. 117 Yes, I ballparked the number, and 40 minutes would have been a somewhat better approximation; I didn't think it especially important in an off-topic footnote. Probably should have just said 37. Another one for the errata list!

TBC

[William Cloud Hicklin]

p. 36 Glorfindel Oct 9/10. I am pretty sure I have it correct here, although it is easy to see how H&S could have interpreted the manuscript as associating the Glorfindel line with the 9th.

p.46 Sarngebir/Sarn Gebir. As the note observes, Tolkien here reverted to the older form. H&S regularized it in their transcription but the original in this spot is one word.

p. 52: "Lake Hithoel" H&S simply made a mistake here; it's definitely Lake Nen Hithoel.

p.53: Moved to the 24th- maybe. The entry is circled in pencil, with a smudge at the bottom which might be read as a directional arrow, but I didn't think it clear enough to include.

Several of the other contested readings are functions of the fact that Tolkien's handwriting was always small and often horrible, and there is enough deduction and educated guess-work involved that two different readers will inevitably arrive at two different specific words.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

p. 138: It's 11.20, almost definitely. It's possible to read the digit as a 3, but I'm pretty sure it's a 2.

68 vs 69 miles: Again, 9 is possible but I'm pretty sure it's an 8. The "69" may be a backreading from Gandalf's Ride, but the original entry here necessarily predates that.

"Gandalf halts 176 miles from Edoras"- this is a case where I silently repaired a minor JRRT error. He only actually struck through "Gandalf halts," but it is evident that the next line "176 miles from Edoras" was also rejected, since the next sentence contradicts it (and 192 accords with Gandalf's Ride). This may have overstepped my (self-imposed) editorial bounds, but I felt two contradictory sentences back to back would confuse the reader

1 pm/4 pm: The entry originally had "10 a.m.," which Tolkien crossed out, writing 1 pm above. I have no idea where H&S got 4.

p.62 Slag-mound. It's definitely singular, H&S must have added the S to regularize it to the published text. The hyphen is not so definite- it might just be a leading serif to the M, but ordinarily when Tolkien did that (he didn't always), the serif is well above the line and curved. T was highly variable in his use of hyphenated words (e.g. hog-back vs hogback; Zirak-zigil vs Zirakzigil), but on balance I think he used a hyphen here.


p.82 Eomer and his picked body. Now, that's interesting. T definitely wrote in 17 above 18 (which has a very bold cross-stroke or crossout). However, a faint penciled line might tie the 17 to a new moon symbol, written beside the original 17 later changed to 22 (Theoden's cortege). Therefore you may be right (and my Note 130 an absurdity)

p.78 "Ring is destroyed." That is correct, although the "is" is very indistinct and tangled up with the end of "Ring."

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Oh, yes, the asterisks. Tolkien mostly used them to denote important dates: Frodo's wounding at Weathertop, the Council of Elrond, the Breaking of the Fellowship, Helm's Deep, the fall of Sauron (really big one there).

[zionius]

Mr. Hicklin, thank you very much for taking time for this extremely detailed answer! I only have three remaining questions:

p. 44. I think maybe Tolkien later rejected moving the boxed cell on Jan 18 to Jan 17, by adding bars on the arrow. So it fixes the inconsistency discussed in footnote 53. (RC 360 also says this event is Jan 18)

And I find pictures of two more MS pages, so two new errata suggestions for C40:
"9 [6>]8 [F>]𝒮". The MS have two lines, one seems to be "8 7 S" with "7 S" removed, another seems to be "9 7 S" with "7 S" changed to "8 𝒮". So I think Tolkien's intention might be "[8 7 S>]9 8 𝒮".
"they go by winding ways." should be "they go by winding ways.)".

[William Cloud Hicklin]

"9 [6>]8 [F>]��". The MS have two lines, one seems to be "8 7 S" with "7 S" removed, another seems to be "9 7 S" with "7 S" changed to "8 ��". So I think Tolkien's intention might be "[8 7 S>]9 8 ��".

The left-hand column, of "modern" dates, was added later in pencil after the SR dates had been corrected and changed, so I think 8 and 9 are out of the conversation here. The original date entry for the Company reaching Hollin has been crossed out beyond recall; while it is a logical deduction that it said 5 S, I couldn't include suppositions.

Also, the original number changed to 8 was 6, not 7

they go by winding ways
Yes, the closing bracket was omitted inadvertently

p. 44. I think maybe Tolkien later rejected moving the boxed cell on Jan 18 to Jan 17

I don't believe so; Tolkien frequently ornamented things like arrows, as a natural doodler; notice that the arrow also has an elaborate tail tuft as well! When he crossed things out, he usually did so emphatically and unmistakably.


------------------------------


I must express some surprise that you have obtained reproductions of pp 2,3 and 8, since acc. to Bill Fliss only pp. 6, 9 and 10 have ever been published. Where did they come from?

[zionius]

Thanks for the insights! 2,3,6,8 are published in Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu (9782717728064). https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules/wiwimod/index.php?page=BnF%20Exhibition%20Map

[zionius]

I note a very interesting thing: All the data of Orcs' movement from Feb.27-28 are based on the careful calculation in MSS 4/2/19/11a (image published in Voyage en Terre du Milieu). I guess other calculations in 4/2/19 finally entered the Schemes too.

S3 says: [Feb 27] At 8 a.m. the Isengarders are 36 miles out on plain: seen by Legolas. By nightfall Orcs are going faster are 72 miles on way. They reach S. end of Downs at 9 p.m. [Feb 28] Isengarders pass N. end of Downs at 4:30 a.m; rest at a point 5 miles beyond. At 5 a.m they go on till 10 a.m (seen by Riders), and are then 25 miles N. of downs, and turn towards eaves of Fangorn (25 m. further on). Rest till 10:30 a.m.

MSS 4/2/19/11a says:
[Feb 26] go on at 4mph
7-8[am] 36 miles [here wrote something that could be "seen by Legolas" but doesn't look like so]
8-midday 52[miles]
rest 1/2 hour
12:30-5:30pm 72 miles (Sun down)
rest 1/2 hour
6-11pm 92 miles reach S. end of Downs about 9pm
rest 1/2 hour
11:30-4:30am([Feb]27) 112[mil]
Now clear of Downs, and 5 miles begin rest 1/2 hour till 5am
5am-10am 132 miles
22 N. of Downs

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Folder 19 is a fascinating miscellany, into which (presumably) Christopher put everything related to distance or measurement which didn't seem to fit with anything else. It includes inter alia "Hobbit long measures," and a remarkably large number of nots on ent-strides and how fast ents could travel

[zionius]

Yes, this is one of the most interesting folders for me. “Hobbit Long Measures” and “ent-stride” are published in Maker and Reader's Companion.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I will be hosting a Reddit "Ask Me Anything" about the Chronology on the subreddit /r/tolkienfans next Wednesday, August 24, between 12 noon and 2 p.m. EDT (UTC-4).

Any questions you have about Tolkien's LR timeline, or more generally about his writings- please, bring it on!

[zionius]

Mr. Hicklin, I have compared the pictures in JRRT: The Art of the Manuscript, and suggest the following errata entries for your consideration:

p50 their camp on the bank. > their camp on bank. Sauron will not permit > Sauron will not yet permit
p75 Missing the new moon sign Ͻ in "21 W." cell. The 3 ditto marks should be right double quotation marks, intead of left ones.
p82 As you suggested, Tolkien added an emtpy entry "Ͻ 17"[July] above "18" to remind himself of moon phase. I believe he didn't changed "18" to "17". Tolkien did the same thing on the next page, where he didn't cross out the rejected "Ͻ 17"[August], but moved it to a new place to fit the modified timeline. So p82 should have two emtpy entries "Ͻ 17"[July] "Ͻ 17"[August], and "17 21" should have "17" crossed out.
p82 It seems "19 Legolas visits the Caves of Aglarond." is modified from "18" after Tolkien changed Aug. 14 to Aug. 18.
p84 while Gandalf and Celeborn and Galadriel hold converse and council. > while Gandalf [Inserted: Elrond] Celeborn and Galadriel hold converse and council.
N. and W. > [deleted: N. and W.]
p86 They reach Bree on evening of 28. > They reach Bree on evening of 28. (95 miles)
Missing full moon sign before Oct 30.
Nov 2 and 3 are revised from 1 and 2, respectively.

[Bêthberry]

Sneak peak of cover can be found here:

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tolkien_Studies:_Volume_19_Supplement

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Sneak peak of cover can be found here:

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Tolkien_Studies:_Volume_19_Supplement

Thanks- but it isn't just a sneak peek, copies are now shipping.

[Bêthberry]

Thanks- but it isn't just a sneak peek, copies are now shipping.

Michael Drout posted a photo on FB yesterday, but I no longer have the photobucket account to let me post it here so I used the TG link. Drout didn't say they were shipping, just that the regular vol 19 was about to go to the printer. It's a very nice cover!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's one of Tolkien's cooler diagrams (even if he later rejected the whole idea)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

ERRATA
Chronology of the Lord of the Rings, TS 19 Supp.

p. 40, January: there should be a closing square bracket after “they go by winding ways.”
p. 50, Feb 20, Company: “their camp on the bank.” > “their camp on bank.”
p. 50, Feb. 23, Orcs & Enemies: “Sauron will not permit” > “Sauron will not yet permit”
p. 52, Feb. 25, Company: “1:30” > “1.30”
p. 56, Feb. 28, Orcs and Enemies: “4:30” > 4.30;” “10:30 > 10.30;” “11:25” > “11.25.” Feb. 29: “11:20” > “11.20” (twice).
p. 57, n.69: “can run [?for] 6 mph for about 50 miles." > “can trot [?for] 6 mph for about 50 miles."
p. 60, Mar. 2, Orcs and Enemies: “(about 1 p.m)” > “(about 1 p.m.)”
p. 64, March 6, Men & Allies: Missing the full stop at the end of "They camp 20 miles or so on way".
p.64, March 7, Men & Allies: "by hidden paths in the mountains" > "by hidden path in lower mountains”
p. 66, March 10, Aragorn-Theoden: "camps 30 miles on way" > "camps 30 miles east on way".
p. 69, Note 98: Delete all from “However” to the end (redundant given p. 139)
p. 71: Note 103 is redundant vis-à-vis Note 98; delete.
p. 74, March 16, date column: The "F. 16" cell should include "LQ"
p. 75, March 21, date column: The "21.W" cell should include "Ͻ".
p. 75, March 21-23, Frodo and Sam: The curly quotes should be replaced with straight ditto marks (")
p. 82, July: “10 18 17 > “10 18.” Insert line between 7 15 and 10 18: “ Ͻ 17”.
p. 82, August: Insert line between 10 14 and 14 18: “[Inserted:] Ͻ 17”
p. 82, August: "17 21" > “17 21”
p. 83: Delete Note 130 (it’s nonsense, acc to the corrections above)
p. 84, Sep 6: “while Gandalf and Celeborn and Galadriel hold converse and council.” > “while Gandalf [Inserted: Elrond] Celeborn and Galadriel hold converse and council.”
p. 84, Sep 13: “Elrond Gandalf and the Hobbits are to go N. and W. towards Rivendell” > “[Inserted: Elrond] Gandalf and the Hobbits [Inserted: are to] go N. and W. towards Rivendell”
p. 85, Note 132: Delete last sentence.
p. 86, Oct 28: “They reach Bree on evening of 28.” > They reach Bree on evening of 28. (95 miles)”
p. 86, Oct 30: The “30” should be preceded by “”
p. 117, n. 180: “30 minutes” > “37 minutes”
p. 134: “chronological overhaul” should be followed by an exclamation point, not a full stop.
p. 136, Table 11, Mar. 9, Frodo and Sam/Before: “Dawnless Day” should be in bold, not italics. Remainder of box should be in plain text. Mar. 10: “Climbing in Ephel Duath” should be in plain text.
_________________________________
[I]Note: unfortunately the BD forum software doesn't support strikethroughs or alternate fonts

[gondowe]

Thank you for the errata. Have you a page where you update this? Or you are going to share here? Congrats for your work.

Greetings

[William Cloud Hicklin]

No, I don't have a website, not even a Facebook page; but TS it seems will be publishing the list.

[Arvegil145]

William, can you explain that last part of the 'Chronology'?

...and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever, No [orc/one?] will Sauron suffer to assail you, or will suffer any [orc/one?] to challenge you again, and [?thus] they were deceived by Sauron and [?received] his aid whence he learned their secrets. Of his but Celebrimbor and Narvi . . .

Does this quote refer to the Second or the Third Age? Given the mention of Celebrimbor and Narvi, as well as the Dwarves receiving aid from Sauron (either by Sauron giving them the Ring of Thror, or alternatively Celebrimbor giving a Ring to Durin, indirectly assisting Sauron), I would imagine that it takes place in the Second Age, before Celebrimbor became a pin-cushion.


However, given the fact that the Orcs were clearly a major problem for the Dwarves at the time, it leads me to think that this exchange took place after the expulsion of the Dwarves from Khazad-dum, as well as the mention of Moria (a derogatory term), and the implication that the Dwarves aren't in possession of Moria.

I'm pretty confused by this passage.

[Mithadan]

I believe that the quote dates to the late Third Age and is what the Nazgul offered to Dain in exchange for the Ring or information leading to its recovery ("the least of rings.... a trifle that Sauron fancies...").

[Arvegil145]

I believe that the quote dates to the late Third Age and is what the Nazgul offered to Dain in exchange for the Ring or information leading to its recovery ("the least of rings.... a trifle that Sauron fancies...").

But didn't Dain refuse the offer?

And what about the mentions of Celebrimbor and Narvi?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm pretty certain the reference is to Annatar, even though "Moria" is anachronistic (but then , it's on the gate inscription!). Not just the mentions of Celebrimbor and Narvi, but the idea that they were cozened by false promises. Sauron is not offering to give Moria back, but that he'd refrain from trying to take it (let's remember that in the Second Age Sauron was pretty much Emperor of the World outside Lindon, Eregion and Moria).

A second reason is that the handwriting gives me the impression of being considerably later than ca 1950 when the Chronology itself was done, and feels to me like it was aborted drafting for Of the Rings of Power or perhaps the History of Galadriel and Celeborn.

[Arvegil145]

I'm pretty certain the reference is to Annatar, even though "Moria" is anachronistic (but then , it's on the gate inscription!). Not just the mentions of Celebrimbor and Narvi, but the idea that they were cozened by false promises. Sauron is not offering to give Moria back, but that he'd refrain from trying to take it (let's remember that in the Second Age Sauron was pretty much Emperor of the World outside Lindon, Eregion and Moria).

A second reason is that the handwriting gives me the impression of being considerably later than ca 1950 when the Chronology itself was done, and feels to me like it was aborted drafting for Of the Rings of Power or perhaps the History of Galadriel and Celeborn.

I know that you spent years on these texts: but how can you tell when any of it was written?


It's honestly amazing...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's nothing more concrete than just a feeling. Like most people's, Tolkien's handwriting changed over time, moving from one variety of awful to another, and the penciled scrawl on the back of the Chronology seems to resemble 1960s scribble more than it does early-50s scribble. But, no, nothing definite can be drawn from handwriting, aside from the fact that notes in ball-point are necessarily from the 50s or later.

My very provisional dating instead has to do with what he was writing when, and the only two texts I can think of that that scrap might have been intended for. (It's perhaps worth noting that, aside from their signatures on the west-gate, Celebrimbor and Narvi appear nowhere in the Lord of the Rings, not even the Appendices.)

[zionius]

Could you provide Marquette shelfmarks for time-schemes II and A-D? It appears one of them is MSS 3/1/34.

[zionius]

RC507: "March 5: 11.30 leaves Dolbaran". C138: "March 5 11.20 leaves Dolbaran"
RC508: ", 176 miles from Edoras". C66 says this sentence is rejected.

After a study of the materials, now I think Reader's Companion is correct in these two readings.

In S3 March 6 entry, Gandalf rides "139 miles between 11.30 p.m on 5 Mar. and [7>] 7.30 a.m", the time and distance would exactly match MSS 4/2/17/14a, if one accepts the "11.30" reading:


5 Mar 11.20[?30] leaves Dolbaran
6 Mar 7.30 sights Edoras having ridden (with brief rest) at 16 mph. 136 miles. Rides on to Edoras (139 mi)


And the correct reading of S3 March 8 entry should be "Errand-riders of Gondor pass, [at] 176 miles from Edoras." (Tolkien emended the period after "pass" to comma when he deleted "Gandalf halts".) This is actually directly from MSS 4/2/17/14a:


8 Mar mid > 2 am 32 160
4 > 6 am 32 192

Episode of moon must be therefore in early hours of 8[March] (5 a.m.) and the errand-riders would then be about 176 miles out from Gondor which they should reach [i.e. reach Dunharrow] by dark next day.


Tolkien (or H&S) made a mistake in "176 miles out from Gondor", which should be "176 miles to Edoras" or something similar (your article doesn't contain this sentence from 4/2/17, and the original image is not released, so I am unsure of the exact intended reading). At 4 am Gandalf was 160 miles from Edoras, and 6 am he was at 192 miles, so at 5 am he was 176 miles from Edoras, and 118 miles from Minas Tirith. This is the intended time and place where they met the errand-riders. (If one accepts the meeting place to be "176 miles out from Gondor", then the meeting time would be 9pm in the previous night, which happens to be the time Pippin sees moon in the previous chronology.)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Tolkien (or H&S) made a mistake in "176 miles out from Gondor", which should be "176 miles to Edoras" or something similar

Concur. The document reads very clearly "Gondor" not "Edoras," which can only be a slip in what was a very hastily jotted note. Since the subject is "Errand-riders" and he used the preposition "out," the natural reference grammatically would be to distance from origin, although this plainly was not what he really meant.

In S3 March 6 entry, Gandalf rides "139 miles between 11.30 p.m on 5 Mar. and [7>] 7.30 a.m", the time and distance would exactly match MSS 4/2/17/14a, if one accepts the "11.30" reading:


Don't concur. MSS 4/2/17/14a ("Gandalf's Ride") unmistakably reads "11.20:"*

March
5 11.20 Leaves Dolbaran

I don't think the ten minutes mattered a great deal to the T/D calculation, but it does seem to have been important that Gandalf with Pippin not dawdle after the Nazgul showed!

Remember that the March 6 entry, on Page 8 of MSS 4/2/18, was written before "Gandalf's Ride," in accordance with the old timeline. He saw no need to emend the entry because the leg from Dol Baran to Edoras didn't require changing, and so evidently he omitted his small ten minute adjustment.

*One can compare the "11.20" to the "7.30" immediately below; the 2 cannot be a 3

[zionius]

All my doubts are now resolved, thank you!

[zionius]

Another question: How do you determine the full moon was on the night of Mar 7/8 rather than March 8/9 in the final timeline? My understanding is:

Evidences for Mar 7/8: almanac time has the full moon at 12:19 am
Frodo sees a full moon on 7/8.

Evidences for Mar 8/9: S2 and S3 say full moon is on Mar 8/9.
Pinpin sees an almost full moon on 7/8.
Éomer says "Last night the moon was full" (before 2005 revision) for Mar 9.
Mar 10 mustering on the "2nd day after the full moon" before 2005 revision.

If we ignore the textual history and only focus on final version, it seems to me the evidences for the latter are much stronger. One only has to make one change in LR text to make it work, whereas Mar 7/8 date requires four emendations, treating them as shadows of the past.
Per Chronology LR p114, Tolkien first used the full moon time for Feb 1 1942 (at 9:12 am) and then switched to Mar 3 1942 (at 12:19 am). But I can't find evidence that Tolkien is using the 1942 moon fullness time in the final timeline (I think we can only be certain that 1942 moon fullness dates are used). On the opposite, S3 clearly shows he envisions the moon fullness time at Mar 8 "PM". I can't understand why CT, H&S and you all say otherwise. Have I overlooked anything?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, it was a fixed data-point that Frodo observed the full moon setting over the Forbidden Pool, and at least as early as Time-scheme S this was the full moon of February 6 (RW Feb 1). With S2 and the one-month delay this became March 8 (RW March 3). This is a basic "fact" that never changed, throughout all of his permutations.

What did get changed around a lot was Pippin's observation of the same moon, since in the original conception he was already in Minas Tirith. However, it was explicit from the first that this was the full moon, and the same one that Frodo saw. The revised Pippin-on-Shadowfax version required some juggling, but Tolkien got there, and this (second) timeline was what made it into V/i. In the third timeline, as laid out unambiguously in S3 the full moon occurred absolutely on the 8th just after midnight, not on the 9th (by which time Frodo had left Henneth Annun on his way to the Crossroads)

The final or S3 timeline, remember, was developed after the book had been completed in draft. Imagine for a moment the difficulty of Tolkien looking back over a million-word book, written over the course of more than a decade, and without an index much less computer search having to remember all the places that dates or moons were referenced and had to be changed! An impossible task, and he didn't get them all. So therefore we have Aragorn's "three days" across Rohan, for example. He clearly did not go back and revise V/i even though technically he ought to have- for instance "so the night was not yet old" is plainly wrong; there is no question that in the final timeline the incident occurs somewhere between midnight and 5 a.m. not in the evening. And, again, this was the same moon on the same night as Frodo's, an essential conception in every phase.

The relation of the muster of Rohan to the moon was always a mess; do keep in mind that the key passage in "The Voice of Saruman" was written all the way back in 1942!

[zionius]

I see, so it is the textual history shows Tolkien had relatively firm idea about one event and would adjust other events to it. Even though the final text might appear to suggest otherwise, it is more reasonable to assume he just ignored to revise them, rather than that he changed the idea he took pains to keep for so long.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I would say, rather, couldn't do it. Tolkien the nitpicking perfectionist would definitely revise, often to a fanatical extent, to make things consistent; but catching every detail in that massive manuscript, from memory, was beyond him (or any mortal). And so there are inevitable slips (like the phase of the moon over Nimrodel, or Shadowfax' speed relative to normal horses).

[zionius]

Indeed, thanks for the comprehensive explanation!