why did Celebrimbor allow Sauron?

[DarkELF]

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<img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes"> soooo does anyone here want to state their opinions on why Celebrimbor (the grandson of Feanor) allowed Sauron to help in the crafting of the 7 &amp; the 9, knowing all his past evil deeds alongside Morgoth??????? <img src=sick.gif ALT=":x"> also.... did everyone know that Celebrimbor created the Phial of Galadriel for her by using the light of the &quot;star&quot; of Earendil?it was the nearest replica of a silmaril &amp; even had the light of a silmaril inside of it!!!!!!!<img src=eek.gif ALT=":eek">

DarkELF: High Lord Of Ost~in~Edhil, the Dour Bard of Mirkwood.(High kin to Eol) <a href=http://pub48.ezboard.com/bostinedhil>Ost~in~Edhil: The City of the Elves!and the Realm of the Gwaith~i~Mirdain</a></p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: why did Celebrimbor allow Sauron?

He didn't know it was Sauron. Sauron gave the name Annatar for himself. Many still realized his evil, but others did not. Annatar was shut out of most other elvish realms. Obviously Celebrimbor wouldn't have crafted the rings if he would have known Annatar was Sauron.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Galadrielle Annatar]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re

Indeed, none recognised him save Galadriel who could not tell he was Sauron but percieved the evil that was hidden in him. He appeared outwardly fair and called him self &quot;Lord of Gifts&quot; and taught the elves much and gained thier trust and Celebrimbors respect.

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[Inziladun]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re

Celebrimbor,like all Noldor had an affinity for craft,and the love of things that were made. Sauron appealed to these traits,and as was said above,none of the Elves knew who he truly was.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Thranduil Elven King of Mirkwood]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re

i cannot understand how Celebrimbor did not know it was Sauron even though he was in a fair form at the time his malice &amp; evil will would seep out of him like oozing puss on a broken scab. <img src=sick.gif ALT=":x">

Thranduil: Sindarin Elf, King of the Silvan Elves in the north of Greenwood the great (Mirkwood); Father of Legolas.</p>

[Inziladun]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re

Sauron hid his malice and his true purpose,and convinced Celebrimbor that his intentions were good. Deception was one of Sauron's strong points,and Celebrimbor's desire of knowledge would have made him overlook any bad feelings he might have had about the situation.


Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Galadrielle Annatar]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re

Why should the scab break?

</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re

Yes, Sauron was excellent at deceiving people. Remember what he did to poor Gorlim.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Pengolodh]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re

Galadriele

&quot;Indeed, none recognised him save Galadriel who could not tell he was Sauron but percieved the evil that was hidden in him&quot;

Well, you may want to note that both Gil-galad and Elrond Predhil advised Eregion not to take counsil with Annatar. They also refused him when he came to Lindon. They were at least equally aware of his evil then Galadriel although no one could really see what he was.

Cheers

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000097>Pengolodh</A> at: 4/18/01 8:57:43 am

[Telchar]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Be aware!

I think its stated the Elrond, Cirdan and Gil-Galad suspected the evil in Annatar but not that they were at first aware of it!


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[Telchar]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: why did Celebrimbor allow Sauron?

Celebrimbor would never have been able to make any rings without the aid of Annatar - Sauron taught the elves that craft!

2ndly where is it stated that Celebrimbor made the Phial of Galadriel? I might be wrong, but dont you think you confuse it with Celebrimbor making the (2nd) Elessar for Galadriel? (At her request)

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[DarkELF]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: why did Celebrimbor allow Sauron?

well friend.... actually Celebrimbor made the first elessar &amp; the second (UT) also he did indeed make the phial of galadriel in the likeness of a silmaril for her. <img src=roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> also... sauron did not teach them the art of ring making, he just showed them how to craft them with power ye see..... for celebrimbor made the 3 alone with no one to guide his crafting.<img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

DarkELF: High Lord Of Ost~in~Edhil, the Dour Bard of Mirkwood.(High kin to Eol) <a href=http://pub48.ezboard.com/bostinedhil>Ost~in~Edhil: The City of the Elves!and the Realm of the Gwaith~i~Mirdain</a></p>

[Telchar]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/vilya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Enedhil/Celebrimbor

As for the 1st and the 2nd Elessar and who wrougth them, respectfully Tolkien himself seems to have a hard time deciding. First he gives Enedhil of Gondolin the credit, then Celebrimbor of ???Somewhere in Belerian son of Curufin. Then Celebrimbor pupil of Enedhil. Then there is the speculation if there was one or two Elessars. I'll have to reread the chapter i UT - Im just not sure that Tolkien ever decided, or rather that his final decision is stated anywhere...
I for one wont jump to conclusions before rereading :-)

Secondly about the Phial of Galadriel:
Something tells me that you're right but where do I find it in the books? Is it also in UT?
Anyway, there are things that conflict what you're saying. Silmarils shone with a Green light, they were jewels or Gems if you like and not Phial. And this is where my english fails me, but isnt a phial a small bottle like container made og glas? Not very much like a jewel is it??

Anyway it is certainly said in one of the versions of the story og Celebrimbor and Galadriel that he made The Elessar in the liking of a silmaril, a green jewel/gem because she desired the light of the two Trees...

Of the Rings of Power, and this is just not up for discussion, period. Yes elves could make rings everybody can! Men, Hobbits, Elves, Dwarwes you name it. But not even the elves of Eregion could make Rings of Power. That was a craft they learned from Annatar. Yes, indeed the Three were made by Celebrimbor, and him alone Annatar never touched them or helped in there making, BUT Celebrimbor made them alone and LAST of all the rings UT and only after he had learned the craft from Annatar!!!
If I got this wrong I'll pull my beard for a month!
Could some of the wise comment, please.

Cheers Telchar










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[Thranduil Elven King of Mirkwood]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Enedhil/Celebrimbor...Whatever!

please dont pull your beard&gt;&gt;&gt;OUCH.i think you are right about the ring thing.... as a matter of fact i just read that part of UT today. how odd!but as for the rest i think you 2 are both right. as for the phial---- it is a cylindrical shape or a diamond-cut shape i think.but i also remember reading that Celebrimbor made the phial in the image of a silmaril. and i dont ever remember reading that the silmarils were green in color...but more of a gold &amp; silver as were the light of the two trees from wich they had gotten their light!! ok~~~ now i ask any of the wise to corret me if im wrong. and if i am may my arrows be dull outside of mirkwood

Thranduil: Sindarin Elf, King of the Silvan Elves in the north of Greenwood the great (Mirkwood); Father of Legolas.</p>

[Pengolodh]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Enedhil/Celebrimbor...Whatever!

On the matter of the Elessar, it can basically be cut into two versions...

One version has it made by Enerdhil, who gives it to the lovely Idril Celebrindal, who gives it to Earendil, who heals the damage of men and animal at the Havens of the Sirion. He then departs with it over the Sea (that's the short version for you). The Elessar then comes back by the hands of Mithrandir who gives it to Galadriel, to heal her land. He notes though, that it is not for her to keep and that it is meant for who we will come to know as Aragorn, son of Arathorn.

Second version has it that Enerdil made one and that Celebrimbor made the second for Galadriel, whom he loved. This was however later corrected in that Celebrimbor made BOTH Elessars. The first went with Earendil. The second was less powerful because Arda was waning and the sunlight (which was captured in this green coloured jewel)was not as bright and powerful anymore. It was still very potent though and was primarily used for healing. Celebrimbor's second was, as I said given to Galadriel, but with the coming of Nenya, she gave it to her dtr. Celebrian, who gave it to Arwen, who gave it to Aragorn Elessar.

PS, I am pretty certain the Silmarils were never mentioned to be green coloured. I would suppose them to be red, blue and white, but that is more an &quot;educated&quot; guess.

Cheers

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Enedhil/Celebrimbor...Whatever!

The Elessar issue is also tied into the question of Celebrimbor's parentage. JRRT &quot;fixed&quot; Celebrimbor as being of the house of Feanor in LoTR. Thus his speculation in UT that Celebrimbor was from Gondolin (and a Teler if I recall) wouldn't fit with what was published. JRRT generally avoided contradicting himself (so long as he realized he was doing so). If JRRT had become aware of the contradiction, he would have modified the Elessar's origin, either by adopting some form of the Enerdhil tale or otherwise.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[alatar]

What if Annatar simply fed the pride of Celebrimbor as he did with Ar-Pharazôn? And I'm not talking about, "Hey, Cele...you're doing a great job on those three Rings there. Why, they rival the Silmarils, or so I'd guess. Can I hold them for a moment so I can make copies to put in kids' meals?"

"You're so right, Annie...I did do a great job. Why, I'm really straining my arm here patting myself on the back."

What of the pride that you can play with evil, take a sip, grasp the sword, steal the bait, traverse the spider's web, and come through unscathed or unchanged? What if Celebrimbor knew, deep down, that Annatar was Sauron, or someone as powerful and as evil as Sauron, and yet thought, "I can handle this. I can allow it to go so far, and when I've had my fill, pull back."

[Kuruharan]

What of the pride that you can play with evil, take a sip, grasp the sword, steal the bait, traverse the spider's web, and come through unscathed or unchanged? What if Celebrimbor knew, deep down, that Annatar was Sauron, or someone as powerful and as evil as Sauron, and yet thought, "I can handle this. I can allow it to go so far, and when I've had my fill, pull back."

That is an intriguing idea, and there is some evidence that might support it. I think by the time Sauron came to Eregion he had already been turned away by some of the other elves as seeming fair and feeling foul. In any event there were certainly some things to give one pause. Where exactly had this Annatar come from for one thing? Who was he really? Celebrimbor might well have had a better idea of who he was dealing with than he let on.

[alatar]

That is an intriguing idea, and there is some evidence that might support it. I think by the time Sauron came to Eregion he had already been turned away by some of the other elves as seeming fair and feeling foul. In any event there were certainly some things to give one pause. Where exactly had this Annatar come from for one thing? Who was he really? Celebrimbor might well have had a better idea of who he was dealing with than he let on.
That's my take. Other elves got the sense that there was something wrong with Annatar, and so why not Celebrimbor? This person appears on the scene with no history (though if he made up one, I'd be interested in what Sauron said :D)? At least Tom was known to be - exist - and had a track record. What were Annatar's bona fides - what allowed him to get so close to such an important elf?

I think that Celebrimbor 'played dumb,' even to Annatar (who may have suspected that he was suspected) in order to mine as much info from the maia as possible, hoping to turn the Gifty one out before things went sour.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

What of the pride that you can play with evil, take a sip, grasp the sword, steal the bait, traverse the spider's web, and come through unscathed or unchanged? What if Celebrimbor knew, deep down, that Annatar was Sauron, or someone as powerful and as evil as Sauron, and yet thought, "I can handle this. I can allow it to go so far, and when I've had my fill, pull back."

There's certainly precedent for this in Tolkien's work. Look at Denethor and Boromir. They both believed they could use the Ring against Sauron without falling prey to it, reasoning that their intentions were good and noble and thus above corruption. Pride blinded them to the truth, that the Ring was evil and nothing good could be done with it that would not somehow turn to evil in the end. Celebrimbor could easily have had a similar failing. I think the fact that he made the Three entirely on his own was not so much because he wanted to show Annatar that he could do it by himself, but that he knew deep down that Annatar's motives were not as benevolent as he wanted them to appear. And yet he ignored any negative feelings he might have had because he wanted the knowledge and skills Annatar offered more than he feared the risk of taking them.

[Inziladun]

Blazes, this does take me back! It feels longer than it really is since I first saw this thread.
I don't think I'm convinced Celebrimbor did suspect 'Annatar'. The UT chapter The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, which seems to have the most detailed information regarding Eregion, gives no indication of any insight of Celebrimbor's which told him Annatar was not what he seemed, until Sauron set the One upon his finger.
Also, it wasn't only Celebrimbor who had dealings with him there. It has been mentioned above that Galadriel suspected Annatar, but it really does beg the question of why, if she knew his true nature, she allowed him to remain and have his will with the rest of the Noldor.
Sauron used all his arts upon Celebrimbor and his fellow smiths, who had formed a society or brotherhood, very powerful in Eregion, the Gwaith-i-Mírdain; ....So great became his hold on the Mírdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion.

If Celebrimbor in his heart knew Annatar to be evil, why would he have allowed things to go that far? After all, in the same chapter there is mention that Celebrimbor may have loved Galadriel at one point.
Granted, that implication is found nowhere else, but even if he had no romantic feeling for her, I just can't see him rising up against her at the suggestion of a being he was aware was truly bad.

[Galin]

This also hails from the Unfinished Tales text titled Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn...

'Now Celebrimbor was not corrupted in heart or faith, but had accepted Sauron as what he posed to be; and when at length he discovered the existence of the One Ring he revolted against Sauron,...'

It is also said (same text) that Sauron had better fortune with the Noldor of Eregion '... and especially with Celebrimbor, who desired in his heart to rival the skill and fame of Feanor.'

Noting too (and in any case) CJRT's explanation that a section of this text was emended to the later story that made Celebrimbor a descendant of Feanor.

[Alfirin]

The Phial is described by Galadriel as being "the light of Earendil's star, set amid the waters of my fountain". Doesn't that sort of imply that Gladriel made the phial herself, or at least that she had some way of opening it and filling it. At the time Celembrimbor was making these things and Galadriel was living in Eregion, she wasn't ruler of Lothlorien yet (she and Celebron had made contact with it, but they didn't come to rule until after she had fled Eregion), so she would not have a special fountain to provide such waters (assuming that 1. Galdriel does not have the ability to create such a fountain whereever she is and 2. the fountain in question isn't some otherwise undescribed water effect she had in the front of her house in Eregion.) Celembrimbor may have made the vessel but it would have been up to Galdriel hereself to put the power into it.

[Galin]

The Elessar then comes back by the hands of Mithrandir who gives it to Galadriel, to heal her land. He notes though, that it is not for her to keep and that it is meant for who we will come to know as Aragorn, son of Arathorn.

On a side note, this version of the tale of the Elessar-jewel makes me wonder -- because Galadriel would have had Nenya before Gandalf arrived to give her the green stone. I note what is said about her receiving Nenya in the second version, with respect to the jewel, as in this version she had the Elessar-jewel before she had her ring.

Comments?

[John Johnston]

Just to pick up on a couple of points from earlier - I had always pictured the Silmarils as being white light, perhaps with a yellow tinge, a mix of the light of the Trees. I'd certainly always thought of them as being all the same colour, although the idea of Morgoth sitting deep in the bowels of Angband wearing a traffic light on his head is quite appealing. :D

And for the Rings - my feeling is that the Elves could, potentially, have made their own without advice from Sauron. They could certainly make "magic" things by themselves, and they had great knowledge both from their own study of Arda and from (long ago) the teachings of Aulë. The Three were instruments of stasis and preservation, not command and control, but a Ring-shape - circular, enclosing - is appropriate to both tasks.

[alatar]

Just to pick up on a couple of points from earlier - I had always pictured the Silmarils as being white light, perhaps with a yellow tinge, a mix of the light of the Trees. I'd certainly always thought of them as being all the same colour, although the idea of Morgoth sitting deep in the bowels of Angband wearing a traffic light on his head is quite appealing.
Too funny!

And for the Rings - my feeling is that the Elves could, potentially, have made their own without advice from Sauron. They could certainly make "magic" things by themselves, and they had great knowledge both from their own study of Arda and from (long ago) the teachings of Aulë. The Three were instruments of stasis and preservation, not command and control, but a Ring-shape - circular, enclosing - is appropriate to both tasks.
Why then did they accept the help of Annatar? Was Sauron that good at selling his help, or were the elves just greedy for knowledge?

[Hakon]

I am not sure about the other elves but I am sure that Celebimbor was that greedy for knowledge. I think he was jealous of Feanor's achievement of the Silmarils, and he would have accepted any help possible.

[Galin]

Also, it wasn't only Celebrimbor who had dealings with him there. It has been mentioned above that Galadriel suspected Annatar, but it really does beg the question of why, if she knew his true nature, she allowed him to remain and have his will with the rest of the Noldor.

By the way, this is a good question, especially considering that Galadriel and Celeborn represented (in this version) the initial power in Eregion, and had actually established the realm.

Keeping in mind that Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn is a short and hasty outline, very roughly composed, I think Tolkien had a problem here: he wanted Galadriel to be perceptive enough to scorn Sauron -- but why was he then accepted in Eregion where Gil-galad (who was to become the grandson of her brother, incidentally) had shut out Sauron himself?

For the second edition JRRT not only added that Celebrimbor was descended from Feanor, but that he was Lord of Eregion (and the greatest of their craftsman). While some might think this can mean Celebrimbor ultimately became Lord of Eregion, in keeping with Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, I rather think that Tolkien abandoned this earlier notion -- or in any event, the published addition need not agree with ideas from an earlier, rapid outline.

So I think it would be Celebrimbor the Feanorian who would decide to receive Annatar in Eregion, and if I am correct it would have been interesting to hear of Galadriel's reaction to Sauron (in a phase before the 'unstained Galadriel' idea appears to have kicked in).