Can anyone speak to the Physics of the Ainulindale?

[lindil]

I now that there is a lot of research and interesting theories being studied re: Sound and the inter-relatedness of matter, can anyone in the know perhaps say what kind of light this throws on the Ainulindale, and Eru first expounding his idea to the ainur, and then the Ainur bring forth the vision in song and then Eru manifesting it as creation [albieit in potentium]?

In all fairness as to my motives [other than natural curiosity smilies/smile.gif], those who participate may be asked if they are willing to let all or part of their contributions be used in a commentary to an Ainlindale entry in a planned 'Tolkien/LEgendarium - Guide/Encyclopedia'

[see here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002966) and here (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=002118) for a few more details about the project if you wish].

thanks in advance for anyone who takes the time to share what they know.

[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Liriodendron]

I'm not sure what you are looking for Lindl. I think the musical creation is the most interesting thing in the Silmarillion. I find it fascinating. What "interesting theories" have you heard! smilies/smile.gif

Sound is energy that makes matter vibrate.....How or why sound was used.....I am at a loss. Are you looking for "real" scientific talk here, or fictional ideas? Seismic waves are similar to sound waves in many of their properties....There would be no sound in "The Void" because there was no matter to vibrate..... As to why sound was used instead of everyone painting a beautiful mural, or creating the world through smell( smilies/biggrin.gif that would be interesting!) I'm not sure! They say smell is the most primal sense, but music moves people deeply.... smilies/confused.gif (I saw a book about sound by a person named John Holland, that seemed VERY thorough!)

[HCIsland]

This may be a dangerous thing to admit, but my undergraduate degree was in Physics.

I'm also not sure what you are getting at or of the research to which you are refering. As was mentioned, sound is vibrations in matter, so without matter there is no sound. As such, you can't use sound to create matter.

Can sound be used to shape matter? Absolutely, though there are certainly more simple ways.

I doubt I'm helping.

Editted to add: Perhaps you are refering to quantum string theory. Here there is a definate connection between concepts surrounding vibration and periodic motion and the structure of matter. Although this has been often poetically refered to as the music of the heavens, one has to be careful in calling this sound in a real sense as the vibrations are really a mathematical model and imagining them physically can only be done through analogy.

However, if the Valar were explaining it to the Children of Iluvatar they would have to speak in the form of analogy and music would be the most appropriate one.

Arrgh! you're sucking me in. I don't have time for this. smilies/biggrin.gif

This is a cool thought though. Let me stew on it. I just read a book on this stuff last christmas.

H.C.

[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[lindil]

"Are you looking for "real" scientific talk here?"

yep!


"I'm also not sure what you are getting at or of the research to which you are refering."

Just things I have read none too closely over the years HC Island & Liriodendron, just fishing smilies/wink.gif .

Stew away!

[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[HCIsland]

Alright Lindil, here it comes.

I hope this is what you are looking for. It's six pages with a couple of diagrams, so I kept it a Word document. I'm pretty sure you can save it locally if your right click on the link.

Read it over. If there's stuff that you would like to see changed let me know, especially if you think there is too much physics or I got something Tolkienish wrong.

Music of Ainur and The Structure of Matter (http://www.geocities.com/hcisland/stringtolkien.doc)

H.C.

[Beren87]

We're sorry, but this page is currently unavailable for viewing.

All it says.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Well, the key to the Universe, as Gabriel says to the school children in The Prophesy (which is persumably relevant as it has Viggo Mortensen as Lucifer) is "Mathematics".

Music and Mathematics are very much two sides of the same coin. Both are advanced most often by prodigy savants, whose best work is usual behind them well before middle age. It seems odd, but true genii arise only in those two fields.

Music of course is also Art, and arguably the highest achievement of Human Civalization. A sophisticated, post-Victorian such as JRRT would likely have been in utter awe of the sublime work by the Great Masters over the then previous 250 years, which remains perhaps the superlative flowering of creativity in all of history.

Music also reflects a continuum of themes, motifs, chordal structures and melody. So, it corresponds to Tolkien's perspective on fate. Music sets a tone and rythm. But how it changes and grows is not known until the end. One cannot know it all at once, and the Ainur were given only a glimpse of how the Music would play out, although some such as Manwe, Mandos, Olorin, Elrond and Melkor, no doubt understood more. It is through understanding the Music that one has power in Elfin terms.

And one can make music in agreement with a larger score, and yet still make one's own music. The two themes last heard in the Ainulindale, are manifestly those of Iluvatar's children. Feanor was indeed on the edge of Fate when unlocking great secrets and expanding the Music through the beautifully sad theme, and even the horror and doom that played out through Melkor's challenge was but part of the plan.

The final theme of Men is aptly described, but even in its blaring there is beauty of those that truly can make their own music, and are free creatures of the creator, and are not tied to the rythm and harmonies of the theme of Arda, for better or worse.

Yet, whether discord and disharmony arise from the vanity of men, the evil of the Melkor or the pride of Feanor, it all redounds to the greater tune, and indeed, dissonance is a critical element of many great works of music, especially in the most recent century.

Oh, yeah, this is about Physics. There I can only think about something that Tolkien as a contemporary of Einstein might have absorbed. Music must at some point involve a meter. And yet it carries its own meter, just as one's place and speed within the universe determines the relative nature of time. So, the Valar, as one example, utterly transcend time as we understand it, through there place in the music, and Gandalf did indeed wander beyond time after fighting that winged thing.

Also, of course, what is Physics, but Math?

[lindil]

Very nice MotW.

Wou;d you care to elaborate on feanor 'being on the edge of Fate'?

HC ISland, I got the same error prompt as did Beren.

I quite look forward to seeing what you have come up with.

[Liriodendron]

Why do you think the last two themes are those of the children? I thought they were hidden? I certainly would place more emphasis on music than physics. smilies/smile.gif I really like what Man of the World said! smilies/smile.gif Music IS the perfect medium, because it is so intricate, and allows for all the harmony and inter relationships that Iluvatar seemed to want. I'd like to understand more of the ways music can do this. And then there's the math! smilies/eek.gif

[ March 23, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

[HCIsland]

Sorry about that. I've converted to a webpage. This is just a regular link.

MUSIC OF THE AINUR AND THE STRUCTURE OF MATTER (http://www.geocities.com/hcisland/stringtolkien.htm)

H.C.

[Scott]

Very thorough and interesting HC.

One thing that I might add though is that the Ainulindale is almost a direct rip-off of Milton's view of creation in "Paradise Lost." I'm not sure it could be looked at in any real sort of fairness in terms of physics... just my opinion.

It's still a viable topic to me though. I'm finding myself getting pulled in more and more by the second.

[Beren87]

Not only five dimensions, but ten!

I thought it was 12..hmm. Or is that Membrane theory?

[Liriodendron]

That was very informative, and I enjoyed it! Thank you HC. smilies/smile.gif

[Aiwendil]

I thought it was 12..hmm. Or is that Membrane theory?

Ten dimensions is where the equations for string theory work out best. Membranes are, I believe, an area of string theory dealing with "strings" that are more than one dimensional.

[HCIsland]

Yup.

Last Christmas I read The Elegant Universe (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375708111/104-2099262-6359966?vi=glance) by Brian Greene. It talks about all this stuff and is an excellent, layman summary as to the current state of these theories.

I don't know where Tolkien got most of his ideas from, Scott. That was interesting. I'm not much on my literary history. I found the idea and the connections kinda fun though.

H.C.

[Vardamar]

Actually, in the years following the big bang, all the matter in the universe was packed into a much smaller volume. Scientists believe that this denseness allowed sound waves to pass though. There’s your music.

[lindil]

Can you elaboraate Vardamar?

[Beren87]

Basically all the matter in the universe was smashed into something smaller than the current universe. All the galaxies, suns, and etc. were pushed into a much smaller space. This smaller space let waves (such as sound waves) be carried farther. (Like being underwater).

[Vardamar]

Matter cannot be created or destroyed, only converted. Since all the matter in the universe had to have been created during the Big Bang, and that in the universe’s early days its volume was much smaller, the density of the matter in space was much higher. Since sound needs to travel through a medium, it cannot travel though space today, but while the matter in the universe was denser, it could. Don’t forget, before gravity had started to compress certain areas of the universe, the matter was pretty evenly distributed. So the music of the Ainur could of taken place in the universe, before the matter became to thinly distributed.

Hopes this helps, and makes sense. smilies/biggrin.gif

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: Vardamar ]

[Vardamar]

Beren, you answered while I was typing smilies/mad.gif Now I cant show off all my advanced knowledge smilies/biggrin.gif

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: Vardamar ]

[Beren87]

the matter was pretty evenly distributed.

According to the Second law of Thermodynamics.

Which, come to think of it, can be applied to Eru creating Aman. As the Ainur left and went into Aman it can be seen as the universe expanding. That thereby lowered the entropy of the entire system. Also, Melkor's disruption of the harmony of the music can also be seen as creating further dissaray and lowering the entropy of the closed system.

EDIT: But I went on with something in your explanation, so it helped Vardamar.

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

[lindil]

smilies/smile.gif sweet!

[Beren87]

You could say that Relativity also applies as Earendil does not age, perhaps he's traveling the speed of light?


Edit: Sorry, just throwing any physics I can into ME. Trying to find relations.

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

[HCIsland]

As the Ainur left and went into Aman it can be seen as the universe expanding. That thereby lowered the entropy of the entire system.
Actually, the second law of thermodynamics says that total entropy can only increase.

H.C.

[Beren87]

Bah, that's what I meant, increase. Entropy is the level of disorganization of a system (or the quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work).

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

[Scott]

So after letting the ideas stew in my mind all night, I realised that Iluvatar being the central figure for the creation owuld explain my questions about quantum theory concerning waves. (Since quantum theory never really answers the question of a central origin for all waves with their controversial residual energies leading one to conclude otherwise.) Since continual waves always need a central origin to propagate from, Iluvatar could be that origin.

Then again, the music was made by the Ainur... or maybe channeled through them by Eru. Each song with a different task and placement, but one origin!
o- -O- -o
/ \
o o
By Jove, you're drawing me in!

[The Saucepan Man]

Ulp! smilies/eek.gif

*Saucepan glances up at the discussion taking place some considerable distance above his head*

[Beren87]

Each song with a different task and placement, but one origin!

I had always imagined it like that, all the music resignating through Eru, a supreme conducter of sorts.

[lindil]

perhaps we can get Aiwendil to reply...

[Aiwendil]

I must say that, as interesting as all this is (I'm an astrophysics major myself), it is not really very relevant to Tolkien's Ainulindale, or to Tolkien's universe. Arda is not a scientifically realistic world. There's simply no way around that. Attempts to apply high-concept physics to it don't really tell us anything interesting about Arda or about physics (except that they illustrate the fact that Arda is not physically realistic).

The music of the Ainur is in no meaningful way analogous to vibrations in the medium of the early universe. As Tolkien might have said, both involved sound and the resemblance ends there. Tolkien's universe does not operate in terms of quantum mechanics or even (on the grandest scale) entropy.

[Beren87]

Attempts to apply high-concept physics to it don't really tell us anything interesting about Arda

None the less, it's bloody fun attempting to apply and make more realistic the world of Tolkien. So while this may no longer help the Aunilindale entry, it has become a viable Tolkien topic.

[lindil]

"The music of the Ainur is in no meaningful way analogous to vibrations in the medium of the early universe."

hmm why not?

Tolkien's universe does not operate in terms of quantum mechanics or even (on the grandest scale) entropy.


can you elaborate a tiny bit without it being too involved?

[Scott]

I agree Beren, post on smilies/smile.gif

[Beren87]

Well, now I would go on the matter of time. To say that the universe was created through the music, that would surely have to be at least when the first super-strings are assumed to have been created (if they exist at all) and when sounds presumably would be able to be transmitted. So that would have to be after the Plank epoch at t=10^-43s. The first music would probably have started at the Grand Unification transition at t=10^-35s, when things such as inflation and baryogenesis were going on. Then the music would have progressed through the Electroweak phase transition at t=10^-11s as the first strong and weak nuclear forces were binding together (which would have started the beginning of the creation of Aman one would suspect). Then on to the Quark-Hadron transistion where Protons and neutrons were being created at t=10^-6s, (this seems like a long time between ages, but it's really not too long in the cosmological scale). The music would have gone on, with probably the second music coming in at Matter Domination (the onset of gravity), and the third and final music coming a little after Galaxy formation. Then ending with the creation of Aman the world at about 5-8 billion years with the time for the Valar to remake it.


EDIT: Wew, I'm too young for this stuff. I need an asprin.

[ March 24, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

[Aiwendil]

None the less, it's bloody fun attempting to apply and make more realistic the world of Tolkien. So while this may no longer help the Aunilindale entry, it has become a viable Tolkien topic.

Agreed.

"The music of the Ainur is in no meaningful way analogous to vibrations in the medium of the early universe."

hmm why not?


Well it would seem to me that the burden of proof would lie with those (completely hypothetical people) that would argue that there is a meaningful connection.

I simply don't see how the two things are related in anything other than a purely accidental fashion. They both involve vibrations or sound, yes. They both occurred relatively early in the history of their respective universes. But I see no resemblance beyond this. Certainly Tolkien did not have vibrations in the roughly uniform, ultra-dense, early universe in mind when he wrote the Ainulindale. Nor is there anything analogous to the Ainur in those early vibrations.

But most importantly, the fundamental import or meaning of the two events are completely different. The music of the Ainur was a literal song, a work of art, created by intelligent beings. It corresponds in some metaphysical (and mystical) way with the unfolding of events in the history of Ea. It existed before Ea, the "World that Is", and in fact was the plan or design for Ea. Vibrations in the early universe, on the other hand, were essentially random phenomena not created as art (and certainly not the epitome of art); they do not correspond with actual events now in anything more than a chaos-theory way, and they certainly do not correspond to our peculiar situation as rational beings; they existed inside the universe rather than before it.

can you elaborate a tiny bit without it being too involved?

Well essentially what I mean is that Tolkien, in the construction of his legendarium, did not take quantum mechanics or entropy into account (because he did not need to). He was creating a fictitious and, more importantly, mythical world. So there is no reason to expect anything in his legendarium to correspond with scientific truths in physics, except to the extent that those physical truths shape our most basic understanding of the world. So from the real, scientific world he carries over facts such as "humans are bipedal", "iron is harder than wood", etc - but not "uncertainty in position times uncertainty in momentum must be greater than or equal to planck's constant over four pi" or "the total amount of disorder must statistically increase with time for all time". Iluvatar and the Ainur are certainly not bound by real physical laws. Nor are Elves and Men (Osanwe, for example, would appear to violate special relativity - though perhaps quantum non-locality could come to its rescue!).

But I don't in any way mean to condemn the game of finding surprising similarities between Tolkien's world and the real world. I only mean that such similarities end just where they begin; they are accidental, not meaningful.

[Beren87]

"The music of the Ainur is in no meaningful way analogous to vibrations in the medium of the early universe."

hmm why not?

In other words, it's just a coinkidink.

[Tar Elenion]

Beren87 wrote:
You could say that Relativity also applies as Earendil does not age, perhaps he's traveling the speed of light?

Earendel
"who passed the Gates of Dread,
half-mortal and half-elfin,
undying and long dead."
HoME3

[Beren87]

Undying because he is now no-longer mortal. A surfer of the spaceways at the speed of light.

Already dead to the people in Aman who's time will go faster than that of Earendel's.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Completely amazing, all you people who are learned enought to contribute. But, alas, I'm a philosophy major, and I'm more than ignorant about physics. *sighs with remorse*

But I wanted to post my appreciation to HC especially, I thought that little article was fascinating, and I love being able to read these discussions...
-Sophia

[lindil]

Iluvatar and the Ainur are certainly not bound by real physical laws. Nor are Elves and Men (Osanwe, for example, would appear to violate special relativity - though perhaps quantum non-locality could come to its rescue!).

But I don't in any way mean to condemn the game of finding surprising similarities between Tolkien's world and the real world. I only mean that such similarities end just where they begin; they are accidental, not meaningful.



Well as I can not speak to the physics question directly [ and forgive me Aiwendil, when I posted this your major had completely skipped my mind, or obviously I needn't have bothered] but what in I think to be an analogous situation, there are many aspects of the Legendarium that are 'true' and it is I believent any accident.

THat of Elves and esoteric disciplines of Taoism and Eastern Christianity.

This is a whole paper I have nevre written [despite creating a discussion board to do just that smilies/frown.gif ] but in short all of the mentioned 'higher attributes'[excepting physical immortality - of which even that therecould well be exceptions] of the Elves are to be found exemplified, explained and even in this present day lived out.

-Osanwe
- a higher physiology as regards endurance, sickness and self-healing
- the effect of just being around these people is explained in nearly identical ways
- their healing abilitites with others
- their ability to communicate and even travel to the land of the 'gods' whom many do not regard as gods.
- their understanding and classification of things in an 'elemental' fashion. [rings of Fire, air, water - wood elves - etc.]

I could probably expand on this list rather easily for another half hour, but my point is, in my experience, virtually all of these things re: the Elves are true [potentially] for humans and granted he was undoutedly a reader of the lives of Christian Saints wherein some of this appears [and is explained as a combination of grace and asceticism] and obviously of Mythology, where it appears, but is rarely if ever given an explanation.

So if he nailed it re: esotericism and human nature, despite a theological background that would be if not antaganistic to many of these things at least uneducated, he got details right re: the above virtually everytime.

Co-incidence? I do not think so, I think 'truth' permeates virtually every level of the legendarium to such a degree, that I see no reason why with the Ainulindale he might not have 'accidently', or more exactly 'intuited' any physics behind an Ainulindale.

Thus my original question.

and actually my question reveals to me much more clearly now his impulse to 'Transform the Myths' cosmologically.

And from one other angle, the World according to Christian [and Jewish of course, though interpreted differntly] Theology, was also created through sound by God's 'Word'.

Now if one takes this as a possibility that through divine inspiration the early writers of Genesis [or Moses if you prefer] and of the Gospel of St. John were correct in attributing Creation to sound via God's Word and 'voice' and 'speaking', then it is hardly a stretch to posit a sung version.

In short I think there must surely be grounds for linking 'truth' of currently understood physics [meaning as it is somewhat incomplete it may not yet have accurate postulates, but assuming for a moment it does] with the 'Truth' of Creation 'Myth's' both Scriptural and in the Legendarium.


That is sort of the [possibly naive] impetus behind my question.

and I in my rather quaint fashion fully expect there to be similarities that are not only parallel but even inspirationaly so.

As to whether we [or in this case others than me smilies/wink.gif] understand the underlying scientific and Theological postulates clearly enough to line them up correctly and to recognize 2 different languages saying possily the same thing is an altogether different question.

But in short if Physics can explain and illuminate the Ainulindale [ or Genesis] then why must it be co-incidence?

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Aiwendil]

forgive me Aiwendil, when I posted this your major had completely skipped my mind, or obviously I needn't have bothered

No, I'm glad you posted it here. Despite my somewhat negative comments I find the opinions here interesting.

THat of Elves and esoteric disciplines of Taoism and Eastern Christianity.

This is indeed a very interesting analogy, and I look forward to reading your paper someday. I would argue that a meaningful (as opposed to accidental) analogy is more likely here simply because we're talking now entirely about humans (and Elves, which, as Tolkien points out, are really just another type of the "humane"). It is not surprising or far-fetched to think that similar features in two different humans, or two different cultures, stem from some common impulse in human nature (or in a cultural influences common to both). It can thus be quite meaningful and illuminating to analyze those points of similarity. So discussing Taoism in relation to Tolkien seems to me to be a worthwhile project.

I see no reason why with the Ainulindale he might not have 'accidently', or more exactly 'intuited' any physics behind an Ainulindale.

With all due respect to Tolkien, one cannot simply 'intuit' things like string theory, or ultra-dense conditions in the early universe. One could, I suppose, intuit some notion of entropy - but it would require conscious thought and directed effort. But I don't see any reason to think that the rigorously physical concept of entropy played a role in Tolkien's works. Certainly there is a kind of Norse idea of the long defeat, but this is at all points in the mythology a result of conscious actions, not of random processes.

And from one other angle, the World according to Christian [and Jewish of course, though interpreted differntly] Theology, was also created through sound by God's 'Word'.


I agree that this is a meaningful similarity. However, I would say that the word of God in Genesis and in John corresponds more accurately to Iluvatar's "Ea!" than to the singing of the Ainur. In fact, I think that the actual song of the Ainur is one of the interesting differences between the Legendarium and Judeo-Christian theology. In the latter, the angelic beings play no apparent role in the actual devising of the universe. This, I think, ties in with Tolkien's emphasis, both in the Ainulindale and throughout the Legendarium, on art or 'sub-creation'.

But, as I pointed out above, there are far more dissimilarities between the Ainulindale and various physical concepts such as string theory and vibrations in the early universe than there are similarities.

I think it is often a very illuminating and meaningful activity to search for parallels between an author's work and the real world. However, it is of the utmost importance in this activity to carefully examine the similarities and determine which may be meaningful and which are merely accidental. Also, it is important to search for fundamental connections rather than superficial ones. The fundamental nature of the Ainulindale, I would argue, has nothing to do with amplitudes and normal modes - it has to do with art and artistry.

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[lindil]

With all due respect to Tolkien, one cannot simply 'inuit' things like string theory, or ultra-dense conditions in the early universe. One could, I suppose, intuit some notion of entropy - but it would require conscious thought and directed effort. But I don't see any reason to think that the rigorously physical concept of entropy played a role in Tolkien's works. Certainly there is a kind of Norse idea of the long defeat, but this is at all points in the mythology a result of conscious actions, not of random processes.



as regards to the impossibility or [extreme improbablility] of intuiting 'string theory' or other equally applicable but abstract theories, I bow to your understanding of the matter [no pun intended].

RE: entropy, what of the Valar's gradually failing vigiliance before the Dagor Daggorath [sp?], Although this is not a very material/physical example.

[HCIsland]

In short I think there must surely be grounds for linking 'truth' of currently understood physics [meaning as it is somewhat incomplete it may not yet have accurate postulates, but assuming for a moment it does] with the 'Truth' of Creation 'Myth's' both Scriptural and in the Legendarium.
As much fun as I've had doing this and reading other people's posts, for me this is just that, fun. I'm likely revealing my own beliefs here, but I don't think there has to be a connection between creation myths and physics. For me, this is analogous to using physics to explain how warp engines work in Star Trek. When Roddenberry first designed the Enterprise, I am pretty sure he wasn't thinking about warped space-time and worm holes, but later folks, mostly fans, began taking aspects of modern physics and fitting them to the Trek universe. It sounds good, especially to the layman, but when you examine it closely it breaks down for the obvious reason that we began with fiction, not reality.

Disclaimer: Other than the above comparison, I am in no way associating Star Trek with Tolkien. smilies/wink.gif

Edited to add: Aiwendil, Astrophysics, eh? Cool. That was my major until about half way through second year when I began realizing research wasn't for me and went the teaching route. I finished my undergrad in physics and then went into education.

H.C.

[ March 25, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[Beren87]

Aiwendil, Astrophysics, eh?

That was also one of my early ideas, but I think that's changed to simply being a writer now. When I finally realised how much math and how little musing is involved, I gave up.

On another note, I would say that Tolkien picked the most beautiful thing in the universe to describe the creating of his. Is it a coincidence that it also may have something to do with the creating of ours?

[Beren87]

Well, now I would go on the matter of time. To say that the universe was created through the music, that would surely have to be at least when the first super-strings are assumed to have been created (if they exist at all) and when sounds presumably would be able to be transmitted. So that would have to be after the Plank epoch at t=10^-43s. The first music would probably have started at the Grand Unification transition at t=10^-35s, when things such as inflation and baryogenesis were going on. Then the music would have progressed through the Electroweak phase transition at t=10^-11s as the first strong and weak nuclear forces were binding together (which would have started the beginning of the creation of Aman one would suspect). Then on to the Quark- Hadron transistion where Protons and neutrons were being created at t=10^-6s, (this seems like a long time between ages, but it's really not too long in the cosmological scale). The music would have gone on, with probably the second music coming in at Matter Domination (the onset of gravity), and the third and final music coming a little after Galaxy formation. Then ending with the creation of Aman the world at about 5-8 billion years with the time for the Valar to remake it.

In regards to my earlier post, [because now I'm wondering] does anyone have any suggestion on how long it took the Valar to make Aman? [the first time around].

[burrahobbit]

"The music of the Ainur is in no meaningful way analogous to vibrations in the medium of the early universe."
hmm why not?

Because the Music happened before the Universe existed.

[Beren87]

Because the Music happened before the Universe existed.

Not really, The Music was the creation of the universe.

[HCIsland]

In regards to my earlier post, [because now I'm wondering] does anyone have any suggestion on how long it took the Valar to make Aman? [the first time around].


As the universe had yet to be created yet, I would assume that time had not yet began. As such questions as to how long it takes would be meaningless.

How's that for an answer? smilies/biggrin.gif

H.C.

[Beren87]

Actually, now I see your point. "Make" wasn't exactly the best word to use, perhaps shape would be better. Let me reask it.

How long did it take the Valar and various Maiar to reshape the world in preperation for the elves?

[ April 07, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

[burrahobbit]

Not really

Yeah really.

The Ainur did there singing "beyond the confines of the World." Then when they "entered into [the material universe]... naught was yet made."

For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshadowing; but now they had entered in at the begining of time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it.

To distil that, the Music was before the Universe existed.

[Beren87]

Hmm. I imagined the Music as the big bang, and the universe being created thereof. I saw the universe being created as the Music was sung, and then the Valar were to go in and introduce matter and such.

The Ainur did there singing "beyond the confines of the World." Then when they "entered into [the material universe]... naught was yet made."

So what I'm saying is how long did it take them to make and shape the matter into the world. The Music [we are suggesting] created the Universe [with nothing in it, granted] or perhaps just that original speck that was to expand to become the universe.

So my question is still thus, how long did it take the Valar to make and shape after they entered into the now [appropriately named] material universe?

[burrahobbit]

I imagined the Music as the big bang

Naw, the Big Bang was more like when Eru said "It is!" ("Ea!")

So my question is still thus, how long did it take the Valar to make and shape after they entered into the now [appropriately named] material universe?

The whole time.

As I read it, Ea is sort of like a house. First you design the house, then you build it and you move in, but you aren't done with it there. Then you have to keep paying taxes on it, and you've got to pay the water bill, and the heating bill, and all of the other bills. But there is still more: what happens when the pipes freeze and burst in the winter? Well, you've got to fix the pipes. One day you might get tired of the color and opt against the original blue for pink. Then some other day you might decide that instead of a little pink house that you want a big one, so you remodel and add a couple rooms.

Do you get what I am trying to say?

[Beren87]

Do you get what I am trying to say?[

Yeah, put it in terms of a house and I can live with in it..err..with it.

See I imagined it as, they make this nice frame of a house and put on the wonderful siding and maybe a sliding glass door here or there and that's the universe. Now they need to buy beds, expresso machines, and various floral print couches to clutter the once empty house. [Those would be Aman, and M-E and such].

Naw, the Big Bang was more like when Eru said "It is!" ("Ea!")

Ahh..

[burrahobbit]

Yeah, the Music is just the planning, all the other stuff came after.

[Beren87]

So...back to my original question. How long did it take them to make Arda?

[burrahobbit]

Like I said, the whole time. They never stopped making until the end, when they'll make again.

[Beren87]

And thus was the habitation of the Children of Illuvatar established at last in the Deeps of Time and among the innumerable stars

Until then is what I mean. When they finally got everything in the house and are ready to move in.

[Gorothlammothiel]

Beren, if I may I would like to pull of one of Burrahobbit's points. Your question is how long did it take for the creation of Arda to be complete, but surely without such a creation the concept of time would also be irrelevant? "In the depths of time and among the immnumerable stars" perhaps states how time wasn't measured, as such.

(Relating back to theology on that point, the fact that the Arda was created in a time frame that is incomprehendable to us, could be a reflection on that the story of our own world's creation, in the view of a Christian, is that the world was created in 7 days-though how long those days were not mentioned apart from the fact darkness was night and light was day.)

The formally mentioned theory could also suggest another link between Tolkien's "unintentional allegory" in the books. The fact that he himself was Christian and most probably a believer in the creation story, he may have used the idea in his works so that the timescale of Arda's creation need not be questionned, or rather answered.

(And HCIsland, I too have read "The Elegant Universe", though I confess only in part as some chapters dealt with issues I have not yet a relavant understanding of, and believe the suggestion of "string-theory", "super-string-theory" and "m-theory" quite feasible).

[ May 09, 2003: Message edited by: Gorothlammothiel ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I agree with burrahobbit's explanation of the Ainulindalë: the Big Bang (i.e. the creation of Eä, the Universe) takes place when Eru says 'Eä!'.

But that means that before the Big Bang it was impossible for the Ainur to play Music (at least music as we know it), because Time didn't exist: Time, as well the other dimensions of the universe (Eä), is created with the Big Bang ...

[ May 10, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

And I am to answer Beren87's question, by trying to establish a 'Big Bang chronology' for the Ainulindalë. smilies/smile.gif

No time: Eru and the Ainur sing.

Time = 0, Big Bang: Eru says 'Eä!'. The Ainur see Eä, the world that is; and some of them descend into it.

From Time = 0 to 10.3 billion years: the Valar construct the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar: Arda, (the Solar System and the Earth) is created.

From Time = 10.3 billion years: The Valar take shape, and work on the Earth, preparing it for the awakening of the Children of Ilúvatar

[Noxomanus]

This is all very interesting but it doesn't really relate to the world as Tolkien had it created.It's a fact physics don't really apply and there are many impossibilities in his world in regard to this as has been pointed out before.Winged Drakes and the great Eagles are other examples,it's impossible for animals their size to be able to fly. The biggest known flying creatures,pterosaurs like Quetzalcoatlus, had wingspans of 12-13 meters wich certainly isn't the size of Smaug and Thorondor,and these pterosaurs could only fly because of extreme weightsaving features.It would also be impossible for Trolls to be created from stone or to place huge power and a mind into a Ring.Yet we dont care and enjoy these stories...Don't make too great a fuss about the explainability of Tolkiens world.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Dare I hope to resurrect this thread? Well, as it has been in my thoughts off and on ever since I first spotted it so long ago, I must give it a try!

First, I must add my agreement with burrahobbit's point about the Music being before the Universe and Eru's "Ea!" bringing it into existence. (Yes, even the stuff about the blue and pink decor schemes. After all, didn't they have to change out lightbulbs quite often in Arda?) smilies/wink.gif

The fundamental nature of the Ainulindale, I would argue, has nothing to do with amplitudes and normal modes - it has to do with art and artistry.(Aiwendil March25, 2003)

But were not the scientific disciplines originally designated “arts?” Indeed, some fine art is based upon mathematical rendering into visual or sound media. And what if the mathematical representations of string theory were translated into one of these traditional artistic media? By analogy, the “music” would be the representation of the reality, much as the equations describe the universe in physical science. They are not the reality, but the representation of it, much as the original Music was the representation of themes to be included in the eventual Universe, but are indeed before it and not related to matter at all. But how to speak it into existence, how to speak “Ea!” and make it so? This capability, in Tolkien’s realm is reserved for Eru alone. So, perhaps we could say the Ainur are like astrophysicists, physical chemists, quantum physicists, plasma physicists, atomic physicists, etc., who specialize in a particular area (theme) and thus, do not know the entire reach of the Music, but who, when placed in the material Universe as created by Eru, have some influence over their individual thematic specialties.

That's just one thought of many, but it is the only one I can put straight enough to post at the present time. Thanks for the thread, lindil!

Cheers,
Lyta

[Finwe]

Before Ea was created, I don't think that the human idea of time existed, but some sort of it did. Why else would Eru's halls be called The Timeless Halls? Time probably does move much more slowly there, and thus, an outsider could probably become quite lost in those Halls.

As for the scientific angle, the Valar remind me of a team assembled for, say, research purposes or archaeological purposes. You need specialists in many different fields, who are united by a common goal. The Valar were like that. Each specialized in creating different materials, working with different materials, preserving different materials, or nurturing different materials. For example, Aulë was "in charge" of all the materials that Arda was made of, whereas Yavanna was "in charge" of all growing things. Each had their own purpose, but they were united by a common goal, like a modern research team.

[Aiwendil]

Lyta_Underhill wrote:
But were not the scientific disciplines originally designated “arts?”

Of course, whether science is an art depends on how you define "art". But regardless of how scientific disciplines may once have been perceived, science is fundamentally and profoundly different from such things as music, painting, and literature. Science is the business of predicting and describing data. Art is the business of producing certain desired responses from the human mind (I would say it is the business of producing aesthetic pleasure).

Indeed, some fine art is based upon mathematical rendering into visual or sound media.

If what you mean (and this is the only way I think I can understand this statement) is that some art can be reduced to mathematics, I agree. As a matter of fact, all art can be reduced to mathematics. But this should be no surprise, since we live in a mathematical world where, as it happens, everything can be reduced to mathematics.

And what if the mathematical representations of string theory were translated into one of these traditional artistic media? By analogy, the “music” would be the representation of the reality, much as the equations describe the universe in physical science.

This would amount to a sophisticated method of encoding the equations for superstrings. Certainly one could call such a sequence of sounds "music". But if one did this, one would also have to be willing to call a book containing the equations for superstrings "literature".

But then perhaps I am old-fashioned in thinking that the purpose of music is to sound good.

But unless one adopts a very strange view of art, one cannot escape the fact that the scientific impulse is vastly different from the artistic.

I don't think the Ainur were supposed to be encoding equations, based on some post-modernist idea about how to construct music. That is, within the context of Tolkien's legendarium, putting the cart before the horse. They were simply creating music - art - and the world formed thereby is thus fundamentally an artistic one.

Instead of the natural world creating humans, who develop art, Eru created the Ainur, who developed art, which created the natural world.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Finwe, Time was created with Eä, Time didn't exist before Eä was created by Eru smilies/wink.gif

(when the Valar entered into Eä ...) but they had entered in at the beggining of Time
Ainulindalë; The Silmarillion

The Timeles Halls are so called because there it is no Time, not even a 'slower time'. In Big Bang theories, Time is also created with the Universe, it didn't exist before the Big Bang (of course, in this case 'before' is not the correct word, because it implies precedence in time and it is meaningless if time does not exist, but I hope you understand what I mean).

The no existance of time 'before' Eä is created poses a new question: how it is possible to sing without time? Music, at least, the kind of music we can understand, needs time to be produced. In my opinion, a possible explanation for this paradox would be to think that the Music was not only sang before Eä was created, but that it is being sung during all the history of Eä smilies/wink.gif

[Lyta_Underhill]

Science is the business of predicting and describing data. Art is the business of producing certain desired responses from the human mind (I would say it is the business of producing aesthetic pleasure).
Certainly that is a good argument for their differences, but, call me super-old-fashioned, I tend to believe in the basic aims being very similar if not the same. The art in science to me lies in the description, the elucidation, the mathematics, if you will. Certainly it behaves according to strict laws, but these laws are ever changing, ever being refined. That, to me, is an art, even though its roots are strictly governed by mathematics (in itself an exercise in aesthetics, as I myself have experienced upon finding an elegant solution to a bothersome infinite series equation once upon a time or seeing an even numbered solution to a stoichometric equation, or a neat row of final derivations of the Schrodinger equation (or when I managed to get all the signs right in a circuit diagram, which was RARE!). Anyway, I suppose my point is that there is aesthetic value in science and always room for expansion into the unknown by careful steps. The aim may be different from the fine arts, but I believe the pleasure is essentially the same.

Certainly one could call such a sequence of sounds "music". But if one did this, one would also have to be willing to call a book containing the equations for superstrings "literature". One could make this claim, although it would be out of the mainstream. But, if one's tastes ran to an evening's contemplation of elegant equations rather than a good story, then one could call it literature.

I don't think the Ainur were supposed to be encoding equations, based on some post-modernist idea about how to construct music. That is, within the context of Tolkien's legendarium, putting the cart before the horse. They were simply creating music - art - and the world formed thereby is thus fundamentally an artistic one.Perhaps the main problem here is that our definitions of the functions of the Ainur seem to be different. I do not mean to say that they are literally scientists of different disciplines and they are translating equations, but that each one's part in the Music is analogous
to the specialist in a particular overreaching field, such as physics as a whole is. It is not a literal comparison but an analogy. Each has specialized in a particular theme of the overall Music; none has full knowledge of it except Eru Iluvatar. Who is to say HOW they made the Music, though? Indeed how can one assume that this music is literally related to our own understanding of what is traditionally known as music? I wonder if it is more related to the abstract "Music of the Spheres?" (I'm not too familiar with this concept, however, if someone else would like to take that up.)

Instead of the natural world creating humans, who develop art, Eru created the Ainur, who developed art, which created the natural world. So perhaps our world is completely opposite to that drawn by Tolkien through the Ainulindale and forward? Interesting idea, if you posit that humans are the ones who develop art. In my own (admittedly crackpot!) view, much of art is already there and is simply uncovered by Man, just as physics is the uncovering of the ever-present nature of the Universe, which was there long before anyone arose to attempt its description. I've also been known to espouse the view that the very behavior of the Universe is influenced by our attempts to view it, keeping a complete explanation, in effect, just out of reach in some cases.

Thanks for a lively discussion, Aiwendil! Always a pleasure! Forgive my admitted shortcomings in certain areas!

Cheers,
Lyta

EDIT: I missed your post Amarie, while prattling on with my own! But your point is a good one:
how it is possible to sing without time? Music, at least, the kind of music we can understand, needs time to be produced.
Perhaps this would speak to the Music being fundamentally different from music as we understand it then? Or perhaps we simply cannot imagine music without meter. In a way, I believe it would be so overwhelming, with the themes rising and falling and interweaving all together, that a mere mortal such as myself could not bear to 'hear' it in its fullness.

[ November 19, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[Aiwendil]

Lyta Underhill wrote:
The art in science to me lies in the description, the elucidation, the mathematics, if you will. Certainly it behaves according to strict laws, but these laws are ever changing, ever being refined.

Science behaves in accordance with one very strict law: all that it is about is describing and predicting data. This is a very rigorous and very rigid definition, which is of course nothing like the definition of art (whatever that might be). I don't think the purpose of science ever changes.

That, to me, is an art, even though its roots are strictly governed by mathematics (in itself an exercise in aesthetics

I certainly appreciate the aesthetic appeal of mathematics (though when I'm embroiled in the depths of, say, a complicated partial differential equation, I must confess that the aesthetic appeal is rather lost on me). But are you really prepared to say that mathematics is aesthetics? Surely aesthetics depends upon the peculiar structure of the human brain, not just upon the logical structure of the world.

But I'm not even sure what we're arguing about any longer. The original discussion involved the possibility of some kind of meaningful connection between the music of the Ainur and the vibrations of superstrings in the early universe. I stand by my opinion that such connections are nothing more than coincidents.

One could make this claim, although it would be out of the mainstream. But, if one's tastes ran to an evening's contemplation of elegant equations rather than a good story, then one could call it literature.

Certainly one could say that one enjoyed it - but would it really be correct to call it "literature"? Admittedly, as I pointed out elsewhere recently, all definitions are arbitrary. So one can certainly call it "literature" if one likes, as long as one adopts a certain definition for "literature". But I don't think that this would be the usual way in which the term is used. "Literature" as an art form seems to me to be something quite different from equations.

I do not mean to say that they are literally scientists of different disciplines and they are translating equations, but that each one's part in the Music is analogous
to the specialist in a particular overreaching field, such as physics as a whole is. It is not a literal comparison but an analogy.

I agree with the analogy, as far as it seems to me to go.

Indeed how can one assume that this music is literally related to our own understanding of what is traditionally known as music?

That's an interesting question. But I am of the opinion that in reading the Ainulindale, we are to think of "music" as we know it - traditional music, even, probably, western music. The evidence for this view is by no means conclusive. But it seems to me that since the Silmarillion is already a myth, it isn't quite right to hyper-mythologize, as it were, a certain portion of it. In other words, why should we take the Ainulindale specifically as being any less "true" than the other, also clearly mythological, tales? Note also that the song of the Ainur is explicitly compared with the music of "harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and . . . countless choirs singing with words". And it is at least suggested that some echo of the music of the Ainur survives in the sound of water, and that there is an association for the Elves between song and water.

physics is the uncovering of the ever-present nature of the Universe, which was there long before anyone arose to attempt its description. I've also been known to espouse the view that the very behavior of the Universe is influenced by our attempts to view it, keeping a complete explanation, in effect, just out of reach in some cases.

Forgive me for veering slightly off the topic, but these two views sound contradictory. The first view, that physics exists to be discovered, seems to me to be the very opposite of the rather constructivist view that the rules change in response to how we go about investigating them.

Thanks for a lively discussion, Aiwendil! Always a pleasure!

I've enjoyed it as well.

Amarie wrote:
how it is possible to sing without time? Music, at least, the kind of music we can understand, needs time to be produced.

To which Lyta Underhill replied:
Perhaps this would speak to the Music being fundamentally different from music as we understand it then? Or perhaps we simply cannot imagine music without meter. In a way, I believe it would be so overwhelming, with the themes rising and falling and interweaving all together, that a mere mortal such as myself could not bear to 'hear' it in its fullness.

If there were truly no time, music would be impossible, for sound would be impossible.

Tolkien does call Iluvatar's dwelling the "Timeless Halls", but like most fictional depictions of supposedly timeless places or people, it has time quite distinctly built into it. Without time there can be no creation, for that implies the existence at one time of a thing that did not exist at another. There can be no seeking for the Secret Fire alone in the void, no speech, no "at first" or "then" (words which are used in the Ainulindale), etc.

[Lyta_Underhill]

I don't think the purpose of science ever changes.I had not meant to imply that the purpose changes; merely the laws derived from said rigorous observations. Of course, now, experimental methods do change!

But are you really prepared to say that mathematics is aesthetics? Surely aesthetics depends upon the peculiar structure of the human brain, not just upon the logical structure of the world.I am not prepared to equate the two; however, I would say that there is an aesthetic character to mathematics. That does not make it necessary for the two to be equal, but merely that the exercise of mathematics seems to satisfy an aspect of the human psyche that longs for order in a quantifiable and observable way. In that way, mathematics satisfies an aesthetic requirement.

The original discussion involved the possibility of some kind of meaningful connection between the music of the Ainur and the vibrations of superstrings in the early universe. I stand by my opinion that such connections are nothing more than coincidents.I believe the original topic was a wider consideration of the connections (coincidental or meaningful) between concepts in physics and the Music of the Ainulindale. String Theory is an elegant way to look at the universe, but I do not understand its intricacies well enough to draw any parallels myself. I suppose I just decided to shift to the variable idea of possibilities and analogies for the Music that do not specifically address the physical concepts, but the concept that physics could be another way to explain the Music (not necessarily that the Ainur would have considered such a thing but that we, as having access to physics as it is currently, would think of such a thing). I couldn't begin to explain it, though!

Note also that the song of the Ainur is explicitly compared with the music of "harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and . . . countless choirs singing with words". I can't argue with that! I don't seek to destroy or bring the myth down to material level, but to rhapsodize upon it, rather to speculate that those who wrote the histories might compare the Music to such things, because those are the things they know and can understand. Certainly the aforesaid instruments would have to be extraordinary to produce the Music as it would filter into Arda as the sound of water and wind on the mountains, etc. I wonder at the cosmic nature of these 'instruments,' and wonder if the songs played upon them could have a mathematical aesthetic such as you have said, permeates the entire world, for everything can be reduced to mathematics.
Forgive me for veering slightly off the topic, but these two views sound contradictory. The first view, that physics exists to be discovered, seems to me to be the very opposite of the rather constructivist view that the rules change in response to how we go about investigating them.The problem here may lie in my abysmal sentence structure, rather than my expressed meaning. My point in the first view is not that physics exists to be discovered, but that the universe does, and physics is an applied art to the end of that discovery. I did not mean to say physics was around from the beginning. It is a developed art/science, a discipline. The second point referred to observed behavior and not necessarily the rules themselves. Certainly there are precautions and indirect methods to skirt the problem of observer affecting an experiment; my point was not that the laws themselves change everytime we look at something. I hope that was clearer; not sure though! I can't think of anything else at the moment, but I hope eventually to be able to add something new!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Aiwendil]

I had not meant to imply that the purpose changes; merely the laws derived from said rigorous observations. Of course, now, experimental methods do change!

Ah. Yes, our knowledge concerning the true laws changes as we discover more things.

I am not prepared to equate the two; however, I would say that there is an aesthetic character to mathematics. That does not make it necessary for the two to be equal, but merely that the exercise of mathematics seems to satisfy an aspect of the human psyche that longs for order in a quantifiable and observable way. In that way, mathematics satisfies an aesthetic requirement.

I agree with this as well.

I suppose I just decided to shift to the variable idea of possibilities and analogies for the Music that do not specifically address the physical concepts, but the concept that physics could be another way to explain the Music (not necessarily that the Ainur would have considered such a thing but that we, as having access to physics as it is currently, would think of such a thing). I couldn't begin to explain it, though!

If what you're saying is that the music of the Ainur plays a role in Arda similar to the role played by the equations of physics in our world, then I agree. That role is, specifically, to describe the world. Note that there is a slight difference with regard to the metaphysics of free will and of Iluvatar's intervention in Arda.

But I still think that if one is interested in the fundamental nature of the creation of Arda, it is artistic in a way in which our universe is not.

I can't argue with that! I don't seek to destroy or bring the myth down to material level, but to rhapsodize upon it, rather to speculate that those who wrote the histories might compare the Music to such things, because those are the things they know and can understand. Certainly the aforesaid instruments would have to be extraordinary to produce the Music as it would filter into Arda as the sound of water and wind on the mountains, etc. I wonder at the cosmic nature of these 'instruments,' and wonder if the songs played upon them could have a mathematical aesthetic such as you have said, permeates the entire world, for everything can be reduced to mathematics.


Yes, I certainly think there's an interesting argument to be had concerning whether the music of the Ainur was literally music or not. As I said, I come down on the literal side. But I can certainly see the points in favor of the other and the appeal of that side.

I hope that was clearer; not sure though!

Yes, I think I understand you now. I feared that you might be a constructivist! But I think that we are largely in agreement.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Yes, I think I understand you now. I feared that you might be a constructivist!
I didn't really understand what a 'constructivist' was, and I decided to look it up; it turns out to be some sweeping mode of thought that may have its roots or at least its most common expression in educational methodology. When I read the method, what I got out of it was, "the students run the class and the teacher watches and makes a few comments." Sounded like chaos, really. But, back to the real purpose!
Yes, I certainly think there's an interesting argument to be had concerning whether the music of the Ainur was literally music or not. As I said, I come down on the literal side. But I can certainly see the points in favor of the other and the appeal of that side.I think the idea that made this particular concept resonate (so to speak) was the constant striving of certain mathematicians and astronomers (Ptolemy, Pythagoreas, Kepler, etc.) to find a harmony in the mathematical descriptions of the motions of the planets, thus my comment earlier on the "Music of the Spheres." I searched about a little a found that the mathematical models of the angular velocity of the planets had been worked out to correspond to certain musical ratios, mainly thirds (major and minor) and fifths. I cannot remember how they correspond, though. Kepler had worked out these harmonic intervals for the 6 known planets in his time, and it turned out that the other subsequently discovered planets--Uranus, Neptune, Pluto--also corresponded to musical ratios with their angular velocity.

On another note, I ran up on a mathematician who was investigating crop circles, and the circles he had looked at followed these same harmonic ratios. Kepler had derived a 'song' for each planet, based upon his mathematical descriptions of their motions and positions.

The concept of the Music of the Spheres seems to draw science, philosophy and religion together somehow in that all seek this harmony. The sacred songs of medieval times were constrained to the 'perfect' harmonic ratios (1, 5, and 6, I think, but I'm working from a 25 year old memory here!). The permeation of this idea of harmonics, music and the realization of that music through mathematical means, links it to the material through the idea that the universe can be described mathematically. And it seems the idea of the different aspects (planets in my analogy) are ruled by different musical tones and progressions. If I recall correctly as well, the angels were the ones who pushed the crystal spheres around in their perfect orbits, so that the music could be made...I don't want to draw a one to one angel-Valar comparison, but I did want to throw out these ramblings to see if anyone could put it together more adeptly than I!

Cheers!
Lyta

[ November 23, 2003: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]

[Aiwendil]

When I read the method, what I got out of it was, "the students run the class and the teacher watches and makes a few comments." Sounded like chaos, really. But, back to the real purpose!

Yes, constructivism is I suppose a rather broad trend that has affected quite a few disciplines. In philosophy of science, constructivism (which was championed by Thomas Kuhn) is (broadly speaking) the view that science is just a social construct and is not in any way more priveliged, more objective, or more 'true' than other social constructs. This is in opposition to the more traditional view that science is the business of discovering true things about the world, and that it is based in objectivity.

I think the idea that made this particular concept resonate (so to speak) was the constant striving of certain mathematicians and astronomers (Ptolemy, Pythagoreas, Kepler, etc.) to find a harmony in the mathematical descriptions of the motions of the planets, thus my comment earlier on the "Music of the Spheres."

Yes, I can see how this is a very appealing notion. And indeed the Ainulindale fits rather well with it. But I think that in Tolkien's creation legend there is altogether a greater emphasis on art, on 'sub-creation', on the will of the artist, than on balance, mathematics, and perfection - not that I think that these two things are in opposition but rather that they differ subtly.

The concept of the Music of the Spheres seems to draw science, philosophy and religion together somehow in that all seek this harmony.

I'm not sure I see how this is true. Certainly there is something philosophical about the idea, but not any more so (I think) than in any sort of science, if one looks at it hard enough. And religion? Certainly one could invent religion to 'explain' the Music of the Spheres, but so could one invent religion in any case, to 'explain' whatever aspect of science one would like.

The sacred songs of medieval times were constrained to the 'perfect' harmonic ratios (1, 5, and 6, I think, but I'm working from a 25 year old memory here!).

Hmm. The 'perfect' intervals are the octave, the fourth, and the fifth. And indeed these were the intervals that were at first deemed 'consonant', when harmony was young. I can't recall at the moment when the third and the sixth were admitted as consonances, but I think it must have been during the middle ages (possibly the late middle ages).

But perhaps it would do us well to recall that in the end, Kepler's theory about planetary orbits being based on the perfect polyhedra turned out not to work. As a matter of fact, this story has become something of an morality legend among scientists. For despite spending most of his life working on the theory and staking so much of himself on it, when it became clear that the theory could not work, he accepted this and admitted the objective inadequacies of his cherished view. And thanks to his willingness to admit this, out of his failed attempt came several important laws concerning planetary motion.

I'm not sure that that story has all that much bearing on the discussion at hand, but I find it quite inspirational - and also a good warning against assuming an underlying connection between the basic physics of the universe and personal aesthetics.

[ November 23, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[yavanna II]

I'm a student of the City Of Mandaluyong Science High School in the Philippines, and based on what I've learned(there are only a few)physics can be applied in the ainiundale(pls correct me, I can't remember Tolkien things right)when the music of Eru was played. the other parts, well, I don't think Physics could be applied, esp the part where they made Arda. smilies/redface.gif

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Aiwendil wrote:

If there were truly no time, music would be impossible, for sound would be impossible.

Tolkien does call Iluvatar's dwelling the "Timeless Halls", but like most fictional depictions of supposedly timeless places or people, it has time quite distinctly built into it. Without time there can be no creation, for that implies the existence at one time of a thing that did not exist at another. There can be no seeking for the Secret Fire alone in the void, no speech, no "at first" or "then" (words which are used in the Ainulindale), etc.

Yes, that was what I intended to say, for us, creatures that live inside Time, it is impossible to imagine how things can happen out of Time (and also out of Space). But that we cannot imagine that, doesn't mean that it is impossible. The Ainulindalë is the explanation the Valar gave to the Elves (creatures that live inside Eä, and therefore inside Time and Space) of the Creation, using words and images that Elves could understand.

It is not that the Timeless Halls are static, but that they are outside Time, outside the dimension we perceive as Time, as well as they are outside the dimensions we perceive as Space.

Considering that not only Time is required to produce the music that we know, but also matter is required, in my opinion, the Music of the Ainur cannot be the same kind of music we are used to. And also, the fact that Time and Matter are required for producing music, it is what makes me think that the Music of the Ainur is being sung during all the History of Eä, i. e., it is being sung at this very moment, and by entering into Eä it is producing the waves that are object of study of the String Theory. smilies/smile.gif

[juhsstin]

what a thread! i haven't gotten through all of it yet, but i thought another thread from another messageboard might be of interest to you guys:

Sound & Geometry (http://www.knottyknotty.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=16787)

the subject, some comments, plus the links therein all revolve around an uncanny phenomenon which makes me say "wow". smilies/cool.gif