Only one lineage?

[Frodo Baggins]

Humour me, I'm curious....

With elves and men being in contact with each other for such a long time, would it be possible that there are more halfelven than the children of Beren and Luthien? I mean, who wouldn't fall in love with an elf? Of course, I'm not sure it'd be that easy for an elf to fall for a puny human but still. A silver penny for your thoughts.

[lindil]

For a delightful tale along these lines see The Fairy Wife (http://members.cox.net/hrwright61/noldo.html)

The best Middle-Earth Fan-Fiction I have ever read [excepting the Ruin of Doriath chapter in the Silmarillion that is smilies/wink.gif ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Beren and Luthien wasn't the only union. There was Tuor and Idril, Aragorn and Arwen, Imrazor and Mithrellas and a couple of other 'potential' unions, like Andreth and Aegnor and Turin and Finduilas. There may have been some other Humans who fell in love with Elves or vice-versa, but because of their 'fates' they didn't get married/have children. Remeber Gwindor's words to Finduilas:

Go withher love lead's you; yet beware! It is not fitting that the younger children of Illuvutar should wed with the younger...neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for some high cause of doom we do not percieve

Of Turin Turumbar; The Published Silmarillion

[ March 21, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Thalionyulma]

I've never considered humans as puny... er, being one of them.

But perhaps being short-lived (the humans), elves are wary of becoming attracted to them. Something to akin to what Elrond wanted Arwen to avoid (in the movie). Our time is short, and elves have a tendency to love deeply when they do fall in love.

What I'd like to know why is it that its usually the elven maidens who fall in love with human males? I don't recall a full-blooded elven male falling for a female human.

[lindil]

Their too [s]elfish!

Actually, I really do think females [elven or mortal] are naturally more giving and more likely to be swayed by love away from their 'normal' path.

Of course it leaves a trail of disgruntled Elf father in laws....

[Child of the 7th Age]

Yes, there was. See Morgoth's Ring on Aegnor and Andreth. The Elf Aegnor, who was Finrod's brother, fell in love with Andreth, a wise woman of the house of Beor. However, he declined to marry her, and remained unmarried till his death in battle, believing that their separate fates as immortal and mortal could only lead to grief.

sharon

[mark12_30]

lindil, you just made my day. Thank you, thank you, and bless you. ....(I needed that.)

[Legolas]

There was Tuor and Idril, Aragorn and Arwen,

Arwen was not an elf.

[Silmarien]

Techinically Arwen was 1/32 Maiar 6/32 Human and 25/32 Elvish.

[Legolas]

I've calculated it before, but no matter what percent, she was a half-elf. Not an elf.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

But Tolkien still deems it fit to mention her marriage with Aragorn as one of the three 'main' unions:

There were three unions of the Eldar and Edain. Luthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn LoTR; Appendix A

I know that Arwen is not FULLY Elven, but technically neither was Luthien as she was half Maia and Half Elven.

[Lalaith]

Technically, the children of Elros were also half-eleven, but they were definitely counted as human. So I agree with Inderjit (and also with Tolkien himself. smilies/wink.gif )

[Lathriel]

There have probably been more such human-elf unnions then we know of. But of course Tolkein couldn't write about all of them. He would still be busy writing if he tried. LOL

[mark12_30]

There's an interesting question.

Elrond half-Elven chose immortality.

Elros-half-Elven chose mortality.

Elrond's children had to also choose: Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir.

But there is every indication that Elros' children did NOT have to choose; indeed, his descendants were cursed and drowned for desiring and striving for immortality instead of a double or triple lifespan that they already had.

So-- once a halfelven chooses mortality, his or her descendants are therefore automatically mortal? As in, Aragorn's son? The book would seem to bear this out as best I recall.

But should Elladan and Elrohir have descendants, they will all have to choose-- until somebody chooses mortality, and then, no more choosing after that.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

There have probably been more such human-elf unnions then we know of.

I REALLY doubt that. Elf-Human marriages are rare and famous, and it is not in their nature to get married. Remember Gwindor's words to Finduialas, though Turin and Findulas really should've got together.

[Iarwain]

I don't quite remember the point where Arwen chose to be mortal, could someone please refresh my memory?

Iarwain

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Arwen's choice was in effect made when her father left Middle-Earth, and she was not aboard, because she had wed a mortal, and so couldn't then leave. Arguably, her brothers might still have been able to chose otherwise, if having departed for Eldamar, say, within the time of an adult human lifespan following the passing of the Ringbearers; lets say Fourth Age 82 was the deadline, so-to-speak. (I for one believe that they did not, having come to relate to the fate of men)

So, when Arwen said she could no longer leave at Aragorn's death, it was true, besides what it would've meant to the sanctity of their marriage.

Clearly, Elros's children had no such choice, because Elros could not and did not go to Elvenhome. So, his choice was also to have his children receive the Gift of Men. The Valar, perhaps, did not wish to deny that Gift to Elrond's children, who would normally have had it, regardless of who their mother would be.

What is significant about Elros, Elrond and his children is that they did have a choice. The default rule, if not known at the time, was that any amount of mortal blood made one mortal. So, Dior, his children and Earendil would have all died a natural death, except for being killed, or given a choice.

And some physical features aside, Imrahil was no more "Elvish" than Faramir, despite having ancestors descended from a semi-Eldarin maiden, who had passed through Belfalas on her way to the West a thousand years earlier.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Another point I wanted to make about the significance of the lineage arising from Elwing and Earendil was that because of the choice for them and their children, something metaphysically Elvish (and even Maian) passed into Men, through them.

Other unions as there may have been in Belfalas or elsewhere were governed by the default rule that I noted above, and the offspring would have at most carried elvish traits only in terms of the biological features of the elven parent.

So, for example, Dior was beautiful and mighty, and perhaps elvish-seeming in many ways for his lifetime, but even if unknown at the time, he was in no way immortal.

[Lalaith]

I really don't think it's as clear-cut regarding Arwen being half-elven, as some of you maintain.
At the first meeting of Aragorn and Arwen, Aragorn calls her Luthien Tinuviel, and Arwen says "I am not Luthien, but perhaps my fate may be like hers" (or something to that effect.)
In other words, up until the time she saw Aragorn, she had assumed her fate was that of the Firstborn.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Was that Arwen flirting, though? Because Luthien Tinuviel's fate eventually was to marry Beren and die the death of a mortal. One could interpret that statement of Arwen's to be an indicator that she thought her fate might be that of the younger children of Illuvatar (which leaves open the possibility of marriage to a mortal-- don't you just picture her fluttering those eyelashes?)

However, what does puzzle me, is that if Arwen expected to die as a mortal, her lifespan is incredible. Arwen was born during the reign of Valandil, Isildur's son, Thirty-Eight generations of the Dunedain before Aragorn. Yet in LOTR she certainly hasn't begun to age as even the longest lived mortal would by then.

So I would guess that Arwen was expecting to be immortal like her parents, but her comment to Aragorn was an indicator that she was willing to forsake that immortality, should she fall in love with a mortal (and thus share Luthien's fate). The initial attraction between those two must have been really strong. smilies/wink.gif smilies/wink.gif

[The Saucepan Man]

What is significant about Elros, Elrond and his children is that they did have a choice. The default rule, if not known at the time, was that any amount of mortal blood made one mortal.

My understanding is that, once Elrond and Elros had been given the choice between mortality and immortality, all children of a union between Man and Elf were to be given the same choice. Is that right? And, if it is, should the children of Imrazor and Mithrellas not have been given the same choice?

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I am not aware of anything that would suggest that the exception made for Earendil, Elwing, their children, and any children of their child, who chose to be of the Firstborn, ramained anything but an exception.

The exception was made by the Valar, because Earendil & Elwing had been in the Undying Lands, and because of their descent from either Idril, who had lived in the Valinor, or Melian of the race that existed before the World. Certainly, quite special.

[ March 22, 2003: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

[Tar Elenion]

What Arwen was (or was not):
Letter 345:
"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."

When Arwen made her Choice:
Tale of Aragorn and Arwen (App. A):
"It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor,... and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel.
He did not know it, but Arwen Undómiel was also there, dwelling again for a time with the kin of her mother. She was little changed, for the mortal years had passed her by, yet her face was more grave, and her laughter now seldom was heard. But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed."

Who gets to Choose:
HoME 5"
"Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me [Manwe]."

[ March 23, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Much praise and glory to Tar Elenion.

[Lalaith]

Sophia, I've been around long enough to be well aware what Arwen was doing! smilies/wink.gif
I meant that she (Arwen) saw herself as similar to Luthien - one of the immortal Firstborn, falling in love with a mortal.

Thank you Tar Elenion for your quotes.
Things now seem clearer to me. So it would seem that Arwen although half-elven,had elvish rights, and was happy to lay claim those rights until she met Aragorn.
The elves were certainly happy to claim her as their own - she was, after all, called the Evenstar of her People. (that is, the elves)

[The Saucepan Man]

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me [Manwe].

Many thanks for the quote, Tar Elenion, which has cleared up a major misunderstanding of mine. Now that I look back at the Silmarillion, I see that this is the implication of the description in the Akallabeth of the choice given to the sons of Earendil:

The Valar indeed may not withdraw the gift of death, which comes to Men from Iluvatar, but in the matter of the Half-elven Iluvatar gave to them the judgement; and they judged that to the sons of Earendil should be given the choice of their own destiny.

So, presumably the Valar could have given any of Half-elven descent the same choice, had they judged it appropriate to do so. What I remain unclear about is the basis upon which that judgment was exercised. OK, so Earendil was responsible for bringing the Valar to the aid of ME and this was felt sufficient to allow his sons to be given the choice. And it follows that Elrond's children should be given the choice too. But why should all others of Half-elven descent (including the children of those of Elrond's children who chose to be mortal) be denied the choice?

[ March 23, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

*crinkling forehead* So what has been generally established was that anyone with mortal blood (excepting only Elrond, Elros and the children of Elrond, who were granted a choice) would be counted as mortal.

But (and I apologize for harping so long on Arwen, but she is the only close example we have of such a choice...) how is it that Arwen lives for thirty eight generations of the Dunedain (a ridiculously long lifespan, for the Dunedain didn't exactly die young either) and then decides to be mortal? Am I the only one that this strikes as a little fishy?

[Voralphion]

But should Elladan and Elrohir have descendants, they will all have to choose-- until somebody chooses mortality, and then, no more choosing after that.



No, if they chose to be elven they would eventually go into the west and any descendants there would have to be immortal as mortals weren't allowed in the undying lands.
I also have to agree with others in that Elwing, Earendil and their offspring were only given the choice because of their great deeds. Any other halfelven would be mortal as any mortal blood = mortal.
The choice was only given to the offspring of Elrond not the offspring of Elros because although Elrond was an elf he still had some mortal blood which would have made his decendants mortal, as any mortal blood=mortal. This choice didn't kick in however until Elrond left ME and so his children were considered to be immortal until he left, when they had to decide for themselves. This explains why Arwen had such a long life before she chose mortality.

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Elwing, Earendil, Elros, Elrond, and Elrond's children when he went to Aman, had a choice.

No other of the (albeit few, legendary) elf-man unions had a choice.

The reasons an exception was made for Elwing/Earendil/offspring are as follows:
--They set foot in the Undying Lands.
--Elwing was decended from a Maia.
--Earendil's mother was a High Elf who had been born and dwelt in Valinor.

HoME IV & V give one a greater appreciation of Idril and Melian, compared to what is found in the published Silmarillion, and why their decendants warranted favor.

The above are very special and unique factors, and they seem to provide ample grounds for the Valar to have made an exception in that case, if no other.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

*large lightbulb appearing over her head* That helps me immensely with the idea of Arwen's immense and otherwise ridiculous lifespan... Thanks much Voralphion smilies/biggrin.gif

[akhtene]

What about such an idea?
Elrond and Elros were not the first children born to elven-human couples. The first one was Dior, but as he was Thingol's Heir and married an elven maiden, his 'elven status' wasn't probably doubted. Besides, this marriage isn't named among the Unions of Eldar and Edain.

The "choice" was first offered to Earendil-Elwig family (perhaps because the number of people of elven-human origin was growing smilies/smile.gif )Or, as for their arrival in Valinor they just couldn't be punished, they had to be rewarded, and it set the trend (I mean Elrond's children).

As for The Saucepan Man 's question why should all others of Half-elven descent (including the children of those of Elrond's children who chose to be mortal) be denied the choice? it seems the answer is in the quotation you have given. As DEATH is Eru's Gift and it's offered and taken in the family, the gift can't be rejected or taken back (becomes a family heirloom smilies/evil.gif ). Immortality, on the other hand, isn't a gift and so it can be offered, accepted or rejected. (Am I in error? smilies/frown.gif Don't kill the one already dead!!! after a night here smilies/redface.gif )

[Tar Elenion]

Elrond and Elros were not the first children born to elven-human couples. The first one was Dior, but as he was Thingol's Heir and married an elven maiden, his 'elven status' wasn't probably doubted. Besides, this marriage isn't named among the Unions of Eldar and Edain.

According to the Judgement of Manwe, Dior would be mortal. Dior's children were considered Half-elves. Dior was considered a Half-elf (and was born to two mortals).

[Lalaith]

Immortality, on the other hand, isn't a gift and so it can be offered, accepted or rejected
ahktene, I think that's a really interesting idea.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I believe what Manwe means is that any product of and Elf/Man marriage will inherit the Gift of Men, (ie 'Mortality' the true death and escape from the circles of the world) *BUT* this does not necessarily mean they will also have a merely mortal lifespan. Dior was about forty when he died, old enough to begin showing signs of aging but there is no mention of any such thing. Nor do Earendil or Elwing seem to have aged after attaining physical maturity.

IMO, and this *is* only my opinion, the Half-Elven are 'immortal' in the sense they do not age or die naturally *but* if they should be killed or chose to die from grief or weariness they will share the fate of their Mortal parent and pass beyond the circles of the world.

If true this would explain Arwen and the twins lifespans. According to the judgement of the Valar they were not required to make a final choice of their fate until their father left Middle Earth for Aman. If they wished to be counted among the Eldar they would go with him, if they remained behind they would be accounted among Men. Which means the twins have chosen to become mortal too as they do not accompany their father.

Note also that Arwen doesn't die of old age but of grief just as her foremother Luthien did the first time, there is no indication she ages at all.

I don't quite understand why everybody says Elros' children were not offered the choice too, where does it say that? What does seem clear from the genealogical chart in Unifinished Tales is that all three of Elros' sons chose to be counted as Men for they married and left descendants. His only daughter Tindomiel on the other hand left no descendants nor does she have a date of death - could that mean she chose to be of Elf kind and sailed West? Possibly Elros' children were also given a time limit to make their final choice, perhaps at the time of their father's death?

However it seems clear that theirs is the last generation of Half-Elven to be given the choice. Their children are Men, but still far longer lived than others of their kind. Which means Eldarion will also be accounted a Man from his birth but will have a longer than normal lifespan, even for a Dunedain.

As for the question of whether there are other Half-Elven, Mithrellas and Imrazor suggest there may be a few, but probably not many and mostly of relatively humble Sylvan ancestry.

[Tar Elenion]

I believe what Manwe means is that any product of and Elf/Man marriage will inherit the Gift of Men, (ie 'Mortality' the true death and escape from the circles of the world) *BUT* this does not necessarily mean they will also have a merely mortal lifespan. Dior was about forty when he died, old enough to begin showing signs of aging but there is no mention of any such thing.

There is very little mention of Dior.


Nor do Earendil or Elwing seem to have aged after attaining physical maturity.
IMO, and this *is* only my opinion, the Half-Elven are 'immortal' in the sense they do not age or die naturally *but* if they should be killed or chose to die from grief or weariness they will share the fate of their Mortal parent and pass beyond the circles of the world.

In UT, Line of Elros, endnote 1. it is said:
"In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the "seeking else-whither," as the Eldar called it, the "weariness" or desire to depart from the world."
This is an editorial summary.


If true this would explain Arwen and the twins lifespans. According to the judgement of the Valar they were not required to make a final choice of their fate until their father left Middle Earth for Aman. If they wished to be counted among the Eldar they would go with him, if they remained behind they would be accounted among Men. Which means the twins have chosen to become mortal too as they do not accompany their father.

What explans there lifespans is that Manwe granted them 'other doom', they were allowed to live with the "youth of the Eldar" until the time came for them to make their choices.


Note also that Arwen doesn't die of old age but of grief just as her foremother Luthien did the first time, there is no indication she ages at all.

Perhaps because she was not "differently endowed in the physical potential of life" like Elros and Elrond. As it says in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, LotR App. A:
"Then going to the House of the Kings in the Silent Street, Aragorn laid him down on the long bed that had been prepared for him. There he said farewell to Eldarion, and gave into his hands the winged crown of Gondor and the sceptre of Arnor, and then all left him save Arwen, and she stood alone by his bed. And for all her wisdom and lineage she could not forbear to plead with him to stay yet for a while. She was not yet weary of her days, and thus she tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her."
If like Elros she was not differently endowed, then she could have expected to live a couple more centuries.


I don't quite understand why everybody says Elros' children were not offered the choice too, where does it say that? What does seem clear from the genealogical chart in Unifinished Tales is that all three of Elros' sons chose to be counted as Men for they married and left descendants. His only daughter Tindomiel on the other hand left no descendants nor does she have a date of death - could that mean she chose to be of Elf kind and sailed West? Possibly Elros' children were also given a time limit to make their final choice, perhaps at the time of their father's death?

However it seems clear that theirs is the last generation of Half-Elven to be given the choice. Their children are Men, but still far longer lived than others of their kind. Which means Eldarion will also be accounted a Man from his birth but will have a longer than normal lifespan, even for a Dunedain.
Letter 154:
"The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity..."

None of Elros descendants had a choice.

[ March 28, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[ March 28, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Legolas]

I don't quite understand why everybody says Elros' children were not offered the choice too, where does it say that? What does seem clear from the genealogical chart in Unifinished Tales is that all three of Elros' sons chose to be counted as Men for they married and left descendants. His only daughter Tindomiel on the other hand left no descendants nor does she have a date of death - could that mean she chose to be of Elf kind and sailed West? Possibly Elros' children were also given a time limit to make their final choice, perhaps at the time of their father's death?

Additionally, Tolkien said Elrond's children received the choice because of the renewed Elvish strain from their mother:

Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.

That's from Letter 153, by the way, not 154, as I presume Tar Elenion made a typo.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Now that just doesn't make sense. Why should a reinfusion of Elvish blood make it necessary for Elrond's children to choose? Why shouldn't it just confirm their Elvish identity as their cousin's Mortal blood on their mother's side supposedly confirmed theirs as Men?

Thank you for reminding me of the 'same potential for life' quote, IMO it furnishes confirmation for my theory by indicating that the Half-Elven inherit the immortality of their Elven parent but the Gift of Men from their Mortal. I wonder, is Elrond completely free of the 'seeking elsewhere' trait? How content is he going to be in changeless Aman, how content are Elwing and Earendil?

One can't help but notice that the majority of the Half-Elven choose Mortality; Elros, his children, Arwen and the Twins - do they maybe know something we don't? smilies/wink.gif

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Legolas]

Now that just doesn't make sense. Why should a reinfusion of Elvish blood make it necessary for Elrond's children to choose? Why shouldn't it just confirm their Elvish identity as their cousin's Mortal blood on their mother's side supposedly confirmed theirs as Men?

Elros' children were mortal because his parents fundamentally were. Elros was half-elven. Half-elves (or anyone with any mortal blood) were considered mortal (prior to Earendil's family). His wife was mortal.

Half-elf (fundamentally + human = mortals.

Elrond chose immortality, but his blood was fundamentally that of a half-elf - half-elves were naturally mortal unless Eru changed that. Celebrian was an elf.

Half-elf + elf = more half-elves in Earendil's family who get the choice

Makes sense.

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Tar Elenion]

Now that just doesn't make sense. Why should a reinfusion of Elvish blood make it necessary for Elrond's children to choose? Why shouldn't it just confirm their Elvish identity as their cousin's Mortal blood on their mother's side supposedly confirmed theirs as Men?
Did the 'reinfusion' make it "necessary" for them to choose? Or was that simply a reason Manwe used to grant them 'other doom'. Thank you for reminding me of the 'same potential for life' quote, IMO it furnishes confirmation for my theory by indicating that the Half-Elven inherit the immortality of their Elven parent but the Gift of Men from their Mortal. I wonder, is Elrond completely free of the 'seeking elsewhere' trait? How content is he going to be in changeless Aman, how content are Elwing and Earendil?
They inherit a 'potential', but they are not 'immortal' (and remember the essential difference between Elves and Men is not how long they live, but what happens after they die) unless granted that by Manwe. As Manwe said: "Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them...". All Half-elves are by nature mortal.
One can't help but notice that the majority of the Half-Elven choose Mortality; Elros, his children, Arwen and the Twins - do they maybe know something we don't?
The Half-elves who were granted a Choice: Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen.
Earendil, Elwing and Elrond all chose 'immortality'.
Elros and Arwen Chose 'Mortality'.
We do not know what Elladan and Elrohir Chose, the most specific statement JRRT wrote about them is: "Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."
Letter 153
Elros' children did not Choose mortality. Elros' children had no Choice. They were 'mortal':
"Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity..."
Letter 153
JRRT is quite specific.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"...". All Half-elves are by nature mortal."

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Long lived perhaps, able to choose their time of death maybe, but still subject to Men's 'weariness of the world' and doomed to pass beyond the circles of the world.

In the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' it is made clear that Arwen's continued immortality is contigent on accompanying her father when he leaves Middle Earth for Aman, if she chooses to remain she becomes Mortal. And Aragorn, struck by a forseeing, tells Elrond that the time of his abiding grows short and 'the choice must soon be laid on your children' strongly implying that the same limitation applies to the twins.

Later, when Aragorn suggests Arwen might change her mind and follow her father, she answers 'that choice is long over'. Now either we must assume the twins are, for some unknown reason, bound by different rules than their sister or that they too have chosen Mortality by remaining behind in Middle Earth.

The HoME shows clearly that the Professor was constantly revising and rethinking his opus but it is my understanding he felt bound by anything that had actually appeared in print - even if he got a better idea later.

And Legolas, I must disagree, Elros's kids were every bit as much descendants of Earendil as Elrond's brood, and Manwe says *any Mortal blood at all* whether greater or lesser makes the carrier Mortal, but by special grace Earendil's sons are allowed to choose which kindred they will be counted among. Thus either *all* Earendil and Elwing's grandchildren should have been automatically mortal, (as per the usual rule) *OR* all should have been allowed their choice. The exact percentage of Elven and Mortal blood shouldn't make any difference at all.

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Tar Elenion]

In the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' it is made clear that Arwen's continued immortality is contigent on accompanying her father when he leaves Middle Earth for Aman, if she chooses to remain she becomes Mortal. And Aragorn, struck by a forseeing, tells Elrond that the time of his abiding grows short and 'the choice must soon be laid on your children' strongly implying that the same limitation applies to the twins.

Later, when Aragorn suggests Arwen might change her mind and follow her father, she answers 'that choice is long over'. Now either we must assume the twins are, for some unknown reason, bound by different rules than their sister or that they too have chosen Mortality by remaining behind in Middle Earth.

Yet we have a different implication in the Prologue:
"It is probable that Meriadoc obtained assistance and information from Rivendell, which he visited more than once. There, though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth."

That Elladan and Elrohir 'long remained' implies that they 'departed' eventually. But departed for where? In this section 'departing' is used for 'Sailing West'. But that does not necessarily imply that Elladan and Elrohir did so. Was their 'departure' death? or the West? (or maybe they just decided to live elsewhere).
As JRRT wrote:
"Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while."



The HoME shows clearly that the Professor was constantly revising and rethinking his opus but it is my understanding he felt bound by anything that had actually appeared in print - even if he got a better idea later.
Usually he did, but he might also look for an out. The comment from Letters (which is contemporary with LotR, not a later different idea) ties in quite neatly with the Prologue statement.

And Legolas, I must disagree, Elros's kids were every bit as much descendants of Earendil as Elrond's brood, and Manwe says *any Mortal blood at all* whether greater or lesser makes the carrier Mortal, but by special grace Earendil's sons are allowed to choose which kindred they will be counted among. Thus either *all* Earendil and Elwing's grandchildren should have been automatically mortal, (as per the usual rule) *OR* all should have been allowed their choice. The exact percentage of Elven and Mortal blood shouldn't make any difference at all.
Manwe says any mortal blood at all makes one mortal unless Manwe specifically grants them other Doom. The 'all or none' option you are presenting nothing to do with what was written. JRRT quite specifically said Elros had a choice, and chose to be mortal, and thus his descendants were mortal, he did not make an exception for Elros' children. He also quite specifically said Elrond had a choice and Elronds's children had a choice (and Elrond's children were born thousands of years after Elros' children died).

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I don't know, sometimes I think we are talking at cross purposes.

Point one: All with mortal blood in greater or lesser part share the Gift of Men, though they may also live very long lives.

Point two: An exception was made for Earendil and Elwing, they were allowed to choose which kind they would be counted among - in other words to choose between the Gift of Men and the life bound to Arda of the Elves.

Point three: the same favor was granted to their sons. Elros chose to abid with Men, Elrond to share the fate of the Elves.

I believe we agree on all these points, no?

Now, since all with mortal blood, (of whatever proportion) are Mortal then Elrond's children should also have been Mortal dispite their Elven mother. Right?

*However* they, like their father were allowed to choose - and the choice seems to have been had to be made when Elrond departed from Middle Earth - in Arwen's case at least, and frankly I see no reason to assume it was not true of the twins as well.

Now, why was the right of choice extended to them as well as their father - and *how* were they made aware of it? Elrond married and had his children in the Third Age, after the change of the world and before the arrival of the Istari. So who told them their doom?

Elrond and Elros made their choices at the end of the First Age, when the Host of Valinor led by Eonwe herald of Manwe were still in Middle Earth. Vardamir's date of birth also suggests that his father was either married or at least in love, presumably with a Mortal Woman, when he made his decision.

Thus the question of children and their destiny would naturally have arisen at that time. I repeat, Arwen and the twins are *every bit as Mortal by birth as the children of Elros for all their Elven mother. I see absolutely no logical reason why they should have been favored over Elros' brood.

Logically Eonwe must have extended the choice to their offspring at the time Elros and Elrond made their own decisions. Telling Elrond his children could delay their final decision until his departure to Aman, and perhaps giving Elros' the option to sail to Aman if they chose too. Possibly none did, certainly none of his sons did. They remained in Numenor as Mortal Men.

Nor do I see the quote from Tolkien's letter as negating this possibility. He says Elros' descendants were long lived kings, and so they were - or rather so *some* of them were. Just as not all his descendants were kings so not all may have been Mortal. Clearly Tolkien was talking about the direct line of the kings here, the line that regretted Elros' decision and tried to reverse it. It doesn't necessarily say anything about the junior lines descended from Elros' younger sons, (who were not kings) or his daughter (who may not have been mortal).

[Tar Elenion]

I don't know, sometimes I think we are talking at cross purposes.
Point one: <snip>
Point two: <snip>
Point three: <snip>

I believe we agree on all these points, no?
Correct.

Now, since all with mortal blood, (of whatever proportion) are Mortal then Elrond's children should also have been Mortal dispite their Elven mother. Right?

Correct, _unless_ granted 'other doom' by Manwe.


*However* they, like their father were allowed to choose - and the choice seems to have been had to be made when Elrond departed from Middle Earth - in Arwen's case at least, and frankly I see no reason to assume it was not true of the twins as well.
Arguably Arwen's choice was made and doom appointed earlier when she and Aragorn plighted their troth in Lorien (TA 2980), see The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in App, A.
You are of course at liberty to Assume the twin's chose mortality. But that is all it is, an assumption. JRRT deliberately (it would seem), chose not to specify their fate. He could easily have said they died in Letter 153, he chose not to. In other words I choose not to make an assumption, I simply state that their fate is not specified and provide a quote from the author to back it up.


Now, why was the right of choice extended to them as well as their father - and *how* were they made aware of it? Elrond married and had his children in the Third Age, after the change of the world and before the arrival of the Istari. So who told them their doom?
Presumably they were informed by Manwe, perhaps through Osanwe (direct thought transmission).


Elrond and Elros made their choices at the end of the First Age, when the Host of Valinor led by Eonwe herald of Manwe were still in Middle Earth. Vardamir's date of birth also suggests that his father was either married or at least in love, presumably with a Mortal Woman, when he made his decision.
Vardamir being born in Second Age 61 suggests that Elros was already married (or in love) when he made his choice some 61 years earlier?


Thus the question of children and their destiny would naturally have arisen at that time. I repeat, Arwen and the twins are *every bit as Mortal by birth as the children of Elros for all their Elven mother. I see absolutely no logical reason why they should have been favored over Elros' brood.
The question did arise and was answered. They are all mortal unless granted other doom by Manwe.
Why grant Elronds children 'other doom' and not Elros' children? Perhaps because of the differing fates of Elves and Men. If Elrond's children were only granted mortality they would be forever seperated from their kindred with out any choice on there part. As for Elros' children remember 'death is the Gift of God to Men'.


Logically Eonwe must have extended the choice to their offspring at the time Elros and Elrond made their own decisions. Telling Elrond his children could delay their final decision until his departure to Aman, and perhaps giving Elros' the option to sail to Aman if they chose too. Possibly none did, certainly none of his sons did. They remained in Numenor as Mortal Men.

Factually they had no children to extend the choice too. What you are saying is 'logical' is merely an unsupported assumption.


Nor do I see the quote from Tolkien's letter as negating this possibility. He says Elros' descendants were long lived kings, and so they were - or rather so *some* of them were. Just as not all his descendants were kings so not all may have been Mortal. Clearly Tolkien was talking about the direct line of the kings here, the line that regretted Elros' decision and tried to reverse it. It doesn't necessarily say anything about the junior lines descended from Elros' younger sons, (who were not kings) or his daughter (who may not have been mortal).

The quote from Letter 153 says:
"Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men)."

It does not say "Elros' descendants were long lived kings". It says "Elros was a King". It says his descendants are "of a specially noble race". And it quite specifically says:
"all his descendants are mortal".
[emp. mine]
It does not make any exceptions.

[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Aiwendil]

Note that I had started writing this post before Tar Elenion's reply above; apologies if I repeated anything he said.

Point one: All with mortal blood in greater or lesser part share the Gift of Men, though they may also live very long lives.

Yes, except those given the special choice by Manwe. But all with mortal blood must at least have the option of dying.

Point two: An exception was made for Earendil and Elwing, they were allowed to choose which kind they would be counted among - in other words to choose between the Gift of Men and the life bound to Arda of the Elves.

Yes.

Point three: the same favor was granted to their sons. Elros chose to abid with Men, Elrond to share the fate of the Elves.

Yes.

*However* they, like their father were allowed to choose - and the choice seems to have been had to be made when Elrond departed from Middle Earth - in Arwen's case at least, and frankly I see no reason to assume it was not true of the twins as well.

There is every reason to think that this was not true of the twins, since so much is quite clearly attested in Tolkien's letters. It is quite clear that Elladan and Elrohir remained for a time and delayed their choice - so obviously they were able to.

Nor do I think there is particularly much evidence that Arwen's choice was linked to Elrond's departure. You quoted earlier a passage in which Arwen says that her choice was 'long over'. But surely this means only that she, in the event, made her choice long ago and is firmly resolved in it - not that there was some deadline to be observed.

So who told them their doom?

That is a good question. Perhaps the rules, as it were, of the inheritance of the choice were made clear by Manwe (and through Eonwe) at the first.

Thus the question of children and their destiny would naturally have arisen at that time. I repeat, Arwen and the twins are *every bit as Mortal by birth as the children of Elros for all their Elven mother. I see absolutely no logical reason why they should have been favored over Elros' brood.

The reason is made quite clear: because Elros chose to be mortal. The only reason that the children of Elrond were not automatically immortal was because they had some mortal blood and therefore had to be offered the option of mortality. But immortality is not a 'gift' in the way mortality is, and those who would normally be human but had some Elvish blood thus had no special right to immortality.

[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

I simply cannot see any reason why Elrond's children should be favored over Elros' when both are, by nature equally mortal. Clearly the privilege of choice was related to their descend from Earendil and Elwing and should apply to Elros' descendants as well.

Even if all Elros' children and their descendants did become mortal, (and sorry for getting the details of the quote wrong) that still doesn't mean they weren't given a choice. I have never denied that all three sons at least were Mortal but they may have chosen to be so as did their cousins several thousand years later.

P.S. Oh and another whoops about Vardamir's birthdate - somehow I confused Elros' age (58) with the year. Must have been sleep deprivation smilies/smile.gif

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Legolas]

I simply cannot see any reason why Elrond's children should be favored over Elros' when both are, by nature equally mortal. Clearly the privilege of choice was related to their descend from Earendil and Elwing and should apply to Elros' descendants as well.

Because Elrond's children were the result of the marraige of two immortal beings.

Manwe deemed it important enough that the children have the choice to stick with their parents to extend that right to them.

Elros left the world, and so did his wife.

You can disagree with Manwe (and Eru, or even Tolkien), but that doesn't change their motives or reasoning.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Aiwendil:

According to Manwe *everybody* with *any* mortal blood is automatically accounted mortal (unless I've gotten that quote wrong too). According to this rule Arwen and the twins would have been *mortal* dispite their Elven mother.

I argue that Elrond's offspring were given the option of choosing Immortality because the grace granted to Earendil and Elwing was extended to their grandchildren as well as their sons. If this is so than logically the same grace would have been extended to Elros' brood.

Legolas: the Gift of Men is from Eru Himself and not to be lightly interfered with, certainly not for sentimental reasons. Your theory is possible but to me unconvincing. Like I said, let's agree to disagree.

But Enough of this small talk about immortality and the Gift of Men! Let's discuss a really critical issue:

How many generations does it take for Elven descendants to lose their pointed ears? smilies/biggrin.gif

Assuming pointy ears are a simple dominant gene, as seems likely, simple Mendelian calculation should give us the answer:

o = round ears
v = pointy ears

Beren (oo) + Luthien (vv) = Dior (vo)

Dior (vo) + Nimloth (vv) = Elwing (vo or vv)

Elwing could be either heterozygous like her father with one 'o' gene and one 'v' gene or she could have inherited the 'v' gene from both parents and been homozygous.

Elwing (vo) + Earendil (vo) = Elros and Elrond (vv, vo or oo)

Elros and Elrond would have a three in four chance of being pointy eared, (vv or vo)
and one in four chance of being round eared (oo). However if Elwing is homzygous (vv) the twins have a hundred percent chance of being pointy eared with either a 'vv' or 'vo' genotype.

Elrond (vo) + Celebrian (vv) = Arwen (vv or vo)

All Elrond's children would inevitably have pointy ears, even if he himself did not, as he married an Elf. Assuming he did have them and was 'vo' than his offspring would have of fifty/fifty chance of being homozygous (vv) genotypes.

Arwen (vv/vo) + Aragorn (oo) = Eldarion (vo or oo)

Depending on Arwen's genotype the next King of Arnor and Gondor and his sisters have either a fifty/fifty chance of pointy ears or an hundred percent chance, (with a vo genotype).

Eldarion (vo) + ? (oo) = ? (vo or oo)

So his offspring too would have a fifty-fifty chance of pointy ears....in fact if they're lucky (?) the Telcontars could go on producing pointy eared mortals for several generations before the 'v' gene finally failed to be passed on. As must eventually have happened with the descendants of Tar-Minyatur.

Elros (vv) + ? (oo) = Vardamir (vo)

or:

Elros (vo) + ? (oo) = Vardamir (vo or oo)

And so forth down the generations.

Is anybody following this? I'm not sure I am...... smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Aiwendil]

Interesting analysis! But, even assuming that Elves do have pointed ears, how can we be sure that Luthien was homozygous? Did Melian have pointed ears? Probably (assuming the existence of pointed ears at all), since she incarnated herself when Elves were the naturally incarnate rational creatures. But if not, you're whole analysis would be off. Now that would be a tragedy.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Ack! what a horrible thought. Apparently pointy ears are canonical, in the Entymologies Tolkien says that Elf ears were pointed with a leaflike shape, (thus the similarity of the Quendian root words for leaf and ear).

[Tar Elenion]

According to Manwe *everybody* with *any* mortal blood is automatically accounted mortal (unless I've gotten that quote wrong too). According to this rule Arwen and the twins would have been *mortal* dispite their Elven mother.

Unless Manwe granted them other Doom. It was within Manwe's prerogative to grant 'other doom' as he saw fit.


I argue that Elrond's offspring were given the option of choosing Immortality because the grace granted to Earendil and Elwing was extended to their grandchildren as well as their sons. If this is so than logically the same grace would have been extended to Elros' brood.
That is not what JRRT says. JRRT says:
"Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices."


Legolas' suggestion that Elrond's children were offered that grace out of compassion for their parents, (so they might not lose their children) is possible but not particularly likely as such graces are not granted out of sentiment but as a reward for great deeds affecting the destiny of Arda.

JRRT states that, with their renewed Elvish strain, Elrond's children have a choice. He says Elros chose mortality and so his descendants are all mortal. Elrond had done no great deeds affecting the destiny of Arda when he was granted his choice. Thus there is a reason they were granted a choice. To allow them to decide whether or not to be forever seperated from their kindred is a more likely reason than Manwe extended the choice to the grandchildren of Earendil and Elwing(who were not even born), as well as their children. Especially since JRRT says Elros was mortal so his chidren were mortal.

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Legolas]

Yes, obviously.

If your logic was true, Morwen, then Elrond and Elros would not have received the choice for they were the children of two half-elven and would have mortal blood.

Thus, instead of Elrond and Elros dying as mortals, they had the choice to have their fundamental fate as they would without Manwe's grant (mortality) or to remain with their parents.

Legolas: the Gift of Men is from Eru Himself and not to be lightly interfered with, certainly not for sentimental reasons. Your theory is possible but to me unconvincing. Like I said, let's agree to disagree.

The Gift of Men was changed for Luthien and Beren SOLELY for 'sentimental' reasons. Love, whether it lies between husband and wife or parent and children, is very important in Tolkien's world, and obviously so in this matter, as Earendil chose immortality for Elwing's sake, Luthien chose mortality to be with Beren, Arwen chose mortality to be with Aragorn (and the grief at parting with her father is also emphasized). All these decisions were based primarily (even totally) on 'sentimental' reasons. It is obvious that this was part of Tolkien's thoughts behind his decisions.

Your theory is possible but to me unconvincing.

Again, if Tolkien's own motivations and decisions about his world aren't acceptable to you, I'm not sure why you taken such interest in the topic. Whether you think they are good reasons or not is another story, but I'm simply presenting to you how his world was.

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

The distinction between the offspring of Elrond and that of Elros is a good question, and fine debate has ensued on the merits of Elros' children having the same choice as Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir, who were all in the same boat, so to speak.

But allow me to paint a picture for why -- aside from the "enriched strain" -- special grace was given to Elrond's children, and that the buck had already stopped for Elros' progeny.

Envision at the close of the First Age, Eonwe or whomever comes to Elrond and Elros and explains the fate of their parents, and the choices they were given and what they decided. Pretty tough.

It is also told onto Elrond and Elros that they too must choose which Kindred they would be. Now, Manwe on down to the Peredhil are all really bright folks capable of abstract anticipation of future events. So, the question arises: What about our children? Who would want to be immortal, if only to see his children die?

Remember, the default status is known and established, and the choice to Elros and Elrond is not to be transformed into a Man or an Elf, but rather to have the life and fate of one or the other. (One could argue that the choice is really to be counted among the Firstborn or not) Generally, Elrond is not called an “Elf” per se, as indeed he is not supposed to be. So, it would be perfectly clear to both Elrond and Elros and the messengers from the Valar that without any further pronouncement of fate, the matter of the next generation needs to be addressed, and was quite logically resolved even before Elrond and Elros were approached.

Now, if the choice is to be of the Secondborn, and of course, King of the remaining Attani, then you have chosen for your children. It needs to stop somewhere, and indeed mortality is the true gift. Besides, how would it operate otherwise for Elros' children? What! ... In their old age, just as they are about to die, they can hop on a boat to Eldamar and become immortal? No, Elros cast the die for all is descendents. There would need to have been all sorts of rules to govern any further choices thereafter.

But if the choice were immortality, then a cruel fate would ensue if no further grace was given to their children, and I would argue any further descendents. Nobody wants to outlive his or her children. It's one of the most dreaded prospects in life.

But at the same time the Exception in Fate by Manwe against the power of mortality inherent to any drop of human blood must have limits.

If Elrond had packed up and gone to Aman at the start of the Second Age, then clearly any descendents of his born in the Undying Lands should have certainly had the life of the Quendi.

But in the case of his staying in Middle-Earth, as was the case (and putting aside the postulation of his having married a mortal woman), the question arises as to how far Manwe’s declaration applied.

And, I would say that it was probably put to Elrond and Elros as such: That were either of them to choose for the Elves and yet not depart directly for the Undying Lands, wherefrom while he should so abode in Middle-Earth, any of his children and their children and so forth as directly descended from him, will enjoy the life of the Firstborn. Those descendents, however, shall forfeit that life if not joining him in Aman, once he has so verily departed from Endor.

My argument is that this was all thought out and explicitly part of the choice presented to the children of Earendil and Elwing.

Elladan/Elrohir & the question of too late.

I've always tended to intuit that Elladan and Elrohir chose mortality, but clearly, NOT because they failed to be onboard when Elrond set sail. His children, as JRRT’s letter indicates, had some time after Elrond had left, in which they could still sail into the West.

For Arwen, I would say that that period was moot. Having married Aragorn, it would have broken the sacrament of matrimony for her to go into the West, even were that an option. In a sense, Aragorn’s remark in the "Tale of Aragorn & Arwen" is, perhaps, a dying man's attempt to test is wife’s love, to help her see that hope remains, or to salve is own guilt at having brought her to that extremely painful juncture.

The tremendous force of that “Tale” is Arwen's realization that the bite of mortality is not one's own demise, which is usually assumed in thinking of men seeking unending life. Rather, what’s most hard to bear, it is the loss or leaving of those that we love. That’s what can really challenge the heart of even the most faithful and pious.

As for Elladan and Elrohir, my thinking has always been if they tarried in Middle-Earth, after the Sailing of the Keepers of the Rings, longer than a normal mortal man’s adult lifetime, then it was too late, and they’d age and die at an age of say 120-some years like Arwen.

The reference in the Prologue, however, indicates that the brethren’s remaining in Rivendell, whether that is what’s meant by “long remained,” was well within the lifetime of Merry. So, I’m actually more open-minded to their having potentially departed in time to the West, but I’ve always felt they wished to identify with Men, and then of the seven with a choice, it would be 4 to 3 in favor of the Secondborn. (The reference confirms my belief that Celeborn only went on the last boat with Cirdan).

[Finally, I think the quote about Aragorn’s relatively shorter lifetime compared to earlier descendents of Elros was from a less developed time in JRRT’s interpretations of the Red Book. Aragorn lived to be 210, still thrice that of normal mortal men, and perhaps significantly longer than any other Dunedain by the Fourth Age, but still less than was originally the case for the Line of Elros, for which five times a normal lifespan had been the norm.]

[Lalaith]

I've just had a moment of horrid confusion. When some posters were referring to what "Legolas" had said, I thought that *Tolkien's* Legolas had been holding forth on the question of immortality somewhere in the canon. Then I realised it was BD's Legolas. All is now clear. Phew. Serves me right for speed-reading.
But one thing I wondered about. What other characteristics are definitely 'Elvish' rather than human, other than immortality and pointy ears? Did the half-eleven show any definite 'elvish' traits? Arwen definitely had elvish rather than human beauty, as did Dior. What of the others?
A

[Legolas]

Dior's beauty came not only from his Elvish blood, but the result of being the son of the hottest chick ever. Dior was also 1/4 Ainu.

[Lalaith]

But did he have pointy ears? smilies/wink.gif

What I meant by my question was that while immortality is certainly the most important difference between elves and humans, presumably there were also other differences. I wondered whether these would have been inherited, or not, by the halfeleven.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

See my long disquisition of the probable genetics of pointy ears above.

It boils down to is first generation half-elven are sure to have pointy-ears, (certainly Elrond and his children do). Second generation with one full mortal parent have a fifty-fifty chance of inheriting the pointy ears, ditto for the offspring of any of those who hit the jackpot.

Thus several generations of Elros' descendants might have possessed elven ears. And the same goes for the House of Telcontar.

[Frodo Baggins]

Ooooo My little baby topic is all grown up and made of two pages! smilies/wink.gif

I'm not so sure that the children of Earendil were not given their choice because their father made it to the Undying Lands, and ONLY because if this. Earendil, being halfelven and thus mortal, made it there without death, and he nor Elwing really weren't supposed to be there. Perhaps the Valar said "All right they have mortal children, and they are mortal. But we are letting them stay here, what about the kiddies?"

And when I asked about only one lineage of halfelven, I forgot about the people of Dol Amroth, who legend says and Legolas confirmed are descended of Nimrodel and Mortals. Thus, the people of Dol Amroth have elven blood in them. Perhaps even Finduilas of Dol Amroth, wife of Lord Denethor Stweard of Gondor had at least a small bit of elvish in her.

[ April 11, 2003: Message edited by: Frodo Baggins ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Finduilas certainly had Elven blood, being a descendant of Mithrellas of Lorien who married Imrazor the Numenorean. Their son was the first Lord of Dol Amroth.

Imrahil, brother of Finduilas, shows his Elven ancestry clearly enough to be recognized by Legolas as a kinsman. It's possible her Elven blood was what made Finduilas so susceptible to the malign effects of Mordor's nearness, apparently Elves are far more sensitive and adversely affected by such things than we Mortal Men.

[Legolas]

Subsequently, Boromir and Faramir had some elvish blood, as well as the Stewards of Faramir's line. smilies/wink.gif

[obloquy]

Read. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002247#000017)

Elves and Men were physiologically identical. There was no 'breeding out' of the pointy ears, if ever the Quendi had them. I see no reason to believe they did, however. Why would Tolkien have given them pointy ears?

[ April 12, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

In 'the Etymologies' chapter of 'The Lost Road' (HoME) Tolkien writes that the Quendi ear is leaf shaped, that is pointed. I guess that makes it canon.

[ April 12, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Legolas]

I don't believe he said which tree's leaf.

Where do you come off thinking that all leaves are pointed?

[obloquy]

Besides that, the Etymologies dates back to the late '30s. Look at the post I linked to.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

smilies/rolleyes.gif

Last time I looked 'leaf-shaped' meant oval with a pointed end. Of course they could have had multiple points like a maple leaf, or been big and wrinkly like a cabbage leaf.....

I did read the link. IMO the evidence is contradictory so one is free to believe whatever one likes. Personally I think it leans towards pointy ears - or at least doesn't exclude the possibility.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

that choice is long over

I've always taken that as meaning, that Arwen didn't want to chooce immortality anymore, and that choice was gone when she wedded Aragorn.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

To make life a little more difficult, what of Tuor, who had no elven blood at all, yet he just packed up and went west;

"But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men." (Silm. 2nd ed.)

I wish to make it clear that I don't think Elros' children had a choice. But I think that it is also clear from the canon that the lines are not as clear cut as one might expect. Of the three unions of elves and men, two "elven" women died (although Tolkien states that Arwen was not an elf, and Luthien was only half-elven as well), and one Mortal man gained immortality.

The first generation after Tuor was counted half-elven, but the first generation after Beren was not (I see no indication that Dior was counted mortal, some will argue that he was, Tolkien said he was of three races, the Eldar, the Edain, and the Maiar. If Dior had been mortal, wouldn't his marriage to Nimloth have been a union of elves and men?)

I think the lines are blurred. You can argue otherwise, but real life is not clear cut, and I think it's quite obvious that Tolkien didn't want it clear cut in ME either.

Sophia

[Aiwendil]

I see no indication that Dior was counted mortal, some will argue that he was

Some will indeed.

Being of three races (as he indeed was) does not necessarily say anything about the matter of his mortality or immortality. He is mortal for two independent reasons: first, because he was the son of two mortals (as Luthien had indeed become mortal), and second because all those with any human blood are mortal unless specifically granted a choice. The idea of this special grace did not even exist until after Earendil reached Aman, so it certainly was not extended to Dior.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Point taken, not necessarily agreed upon, but all the relevent facts have been stated so many times it's not worth repeating. However, my point was to say, not that Dior was immortal or mortal, simply that he isn't counted anywhere among the half-elven.

Sophia

[Legolas]

I wish to make it clear that I don't think Elros' children had a choice. But I think that it is also clear from the canon that the lines are not as clear cut as one might expect.

Elros' children definitely did not have a choice. It is clear cut. smilies/wink.gif

Letter No. 153

Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.

Point taken, not necessarily agreed upon,

Where do you disagree?

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

I agree totally and completely about Elros' children! *reprimands self for entering this discussion*

I also agree about the fate of the half-elven (as it has been described here) Earendil and Elwing were offered a choice, as were their sons Elros and Elrond. The children of Elrond were also extended that choice, the children of Elros were not. The children of Arwen were not. Very clear cut.

What is less than clear cut is the distinction between the Elder and Younger children when they begin mixing.

For example: Tolkien clearly states that Arwen is not an elf (I believe that's already been quoted on this thread) yet her marriage with Aragorn is one of the three unions between elves and men. Yet, she is certainly numbered among men, for she "died indeed and left the world" and the Silm. states clearly that "[Luthien] alone of the Eldalie... has died indeed, and left the world long ago."

Dior, following the main line of thought, was a mortal, essentially human, who married an elf (Nimloth) and wasn't considered a union of elves and men.

Tuor was a man with no elven blood who went to Valinor and shared the fate of the firstborn.

And as for what Man-of-the-Wold said: Having married Aragorn, it would have broken the sacrament of matrimony for her to go into the West, even were that an option. Both Melian and Mithrellas went west (without their husbands) after having married in ME.

It simply is not black and white. Manwe exercises his discretion freely-- he has to, the marriages in ME get as complex as some on Jerry Springer smilies/wink.gif

Sophia

[Man-of-the-Wold]

I think in many ways this whole discussion highlights examples of where exceptions prove the rule.

As for Arwen, she was both and Elf and a non-Elf.

Also, in comparison to Mithrellas and Melian, Arwen like Luthien had a choice. There was no point in Melian or even Mithrellas remaining in Middle-Earth forever. Arwen on the other hand would be as mortal as her spouse, and in actuality did not have the option of going to Valinor when Aragorn died (I rationalize his apparent remark to contrary elsewhere).

Moreover, I would argue that any such option effectively dissolved at the point of their marriage. Whereas for Elrohir and Elladan it is a healthy "who knows?"

[Novhloke]

there must have been mroe lineage, but remember, here is my opinion

The elves are not so great and powerfull and beautifull, they were perhaps a small deal greater than the humans. Remember, that I read in the book and i think it was "The Two Towers" of when frodo speaks with galadriel after looking into her mirror, he says that without the rings, the elves with wither and die. So i think that the source of the Elves power and greatness is the One Ring. And some of you may kow this.

I just thought i should bring it out for whoever said "puny humans"