Denethor vs. Aragorn

[Meriadoc61]

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How do you think things would have gone had Denethor not committed suicide and gone into the fire? Would he have surrendered his sceptre to Aragorn, as Faramir did?

</p>

[red]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Oooh! I remember debating this a while ago in chat! Somebody said they doubted Denethor would have given up the sceptre. There is a precedent for this as well, though I can't for the life of me find the reference. It was a steward who would not give up the sceptre to a claimant from the Northern line, I believe.

There was already a stir in Minas Tirith about Aragorn, for they said the true King had the 'hands of a healer'. I think perhaps if Denethor had denied the throne, he would have had a riot on his hands. The people loved Aragorn. <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[Grand Admiral Reese]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Denethor was a wise man. He'd probably see that the Rule of the Stewards was over and give up the sceptre. He'd probably realize that it'd mean civil war if he didn't, with him most likely on the losing side.


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[Meriadoc61]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Denethor vs. Aragorn

Grand Admiral Reese:

I certainly would hope you would be right, but Denethor had for years been holding a grudge against Aragorn. His father, Ecthelion, had been very impressed with Aragorn when he appeared in Denethor's youth in Gondor under a diferent guise. There have been many times in the past when individuals have placed their own self interests ahead of others regardles of the harmful consequences, and I am afraid Denethor would have fallen into this category.

I appreciate your comments, though, and since this is strictly a matter of opinion, you could very well be right.

</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Rèd, I believe you are refering to Arvedui, the last king of Arthedain. But those were slightly different circumstances. Eärnil had also laid claim to the kingship, he was not the steward as Denethor was.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Glorfindel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

I dont believe Denethor would of given up the Septre because he was (in my opinion)enthralled with his position of steward and the position's history that he would maybe think a king is not necessary even if he is Isildur's heir.
I believe he would think Gondor has endured over a 1000 years under stewardship why not more?

</p>

[The X Phial]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

In fact, doesn't he say something to the effect that he doesn't really believe Isildur's heir should rule Gondor? I would check it, but I'm too lazy.

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

[Gilthalion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

&quot;...of a lesser line, long bereft of lordship...&quot; or something like that. (I'm at work and have no references here, even if I were energetic enough to search for it!)

Denethor might have tried to find some wiggle-room in the precedent Red mentioned. Prince Imrahil might have had something to say about it. Faramir, like Ecthelion, would have chosen against Denethor.

Sadly, I doubt Denethor's opposition would have even been open. I think he would have tried to arrange some calamity or treachery on the battlefield.

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[Sharkû]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Good point, Gil.
It may well have been possible that Denethor would have arranged some treachery with which he would have wanted to save Gondor from the usurpers. What part his own will to power might have played can only be guessed - no doubt it was a strong part of Denethor.

Nevertheless one thing might have well been able to stop him in such a constellation, namely the love for Faramir his son.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

I can picture a situation in which Denethor has actually betrayed Aragorn to Mordor, via the palantir, but Faramir sacrifices his own life to rescue his King.

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[Glorfindel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

It could of happened.
Eventhough i dont think gandalf would of been to thrilled with the idea.



</p>

[Meriadoc61]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Denethor vs. Aragorn

Gilthalion, Sharku, and the rest of you, excellent comments! I think the scenario presented whereby Faramir gives his life to save Aragorn his Lord from an event orchestrated by Denethor would have worked well. It is very reminiscent of the story of David, Jonathan, and Saul in the Old Testament.

I prefer the way Tolkien played out the part between Aragorn and Faramir, though, since Faramir in the tale he was elevated to a prince and stayed happily in Ithilien, which he loved. Anyway, Faramir is one of my favorite characters in the story, and both of these scenarios hold true to his character, which is of the highest merit.

</p>

[Amandil]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Here is the quote from Denethor, shortly before his (Denethor's) self immolation, in regards to Aragorn assuming the throne:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity&quot; <hr></blockquote>

There was no way Aragorn would have been able to assume the throne without some further bloodshed or tragedy had Denethor lived.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000049>Amandil</A> at: 5/2/01 10:46:32 pm

[enep]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Denethor was a bit screwed in the head anyway - realistically, the chances of him not throwing his life away are limited.

He'd been used by Sauron, he'd seen too much - infact, Denethor had probably seen the future unfold with him still in the picture - along with his sight of Sauron's troops, and Aragorn: all contributed to his suicide.

I always felt sorry for him, really <img src=frown.gif ALT=":(">

- enep</p>

[Lady Eowyn]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

I gotta agree, enep. I also always felt sorry for Denethor.

I don't think Denethor would have let Arithon rule without a hissy-fit.
but the people and Faramir loved Arithon, so maybe he would have
given up after a while...


And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

[Falmar]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

I think a good compromise for Denethor would have been for him to resign the Stewardship in favour of Faramir and then leave it up to his son to surrender the sceptre to Aragorn.
Then he could go into a dignified retirement.

</p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Speaking of hissy fits...

...what's this Arithon business?

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[Amandil]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

You know....Arithon.... Aragorn's older brother that spent the last 90 years playing dead, hiding out in the wild with the Pukel Men. Much safer. Nows he is ready to assume the throne now that the War is over <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

I still have problems with Denethor because of the way he treats Faramir. Not nice to love one of your children more than the other. And the things he said to Faramir! What would Denethor's wife Finduilas have made of that?!!

</p>

[Amandil]

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Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Hey!! When did I get off the floor and become Animated?
I was just resting!

</p>

[red]

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Arithon

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> You know....Arithon.... Aragorn's older brother that spent the last 90 years playing dead, hiding out in the wild with the Pukel Men. Much safer. Nows he is ready to assume the throne now that the War is over<hr></blockquote>

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Too funny. <img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

[enep]

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Re: Arithon

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> Fugitive, eh?

- enep</p>

[Amandil]

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Re: Arithon

Imagine Arithon's coronation. Won't people be suprised when he shows up in a grass skirt! <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

</p>

[arwentinuviel]

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denethor vs aragorn

Thatis a very interesting situation.
Denethor was a very proud man but he was also a wise man.He would have definitely given up the sceptre and would've allowed aragorn to take leadership

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

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Re: denethor vs aragorn

Hey arwentinuviel, good to see you finally made it over to the Downs. Welcome and hope you post a lot. This is the best Tolkien site EVER!!!

Humour is emotional chaos remembered in moments of tranquility.</p>

[GandaIf The White]

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Re: denethor vs aragorn

Well, I dont think this would happen but nobody else has thought of this.

Why not do what is supposed to be done? He might have given Aragorn the Scepter and stayed a Steward! You know, I thought I read that when the old kings ruled, they had a Steward to rule in there absence and to help them in any way possible. I think it would have been a nice turn of events if Denethor had become Aragorns Steward. They would make an awesome team.

But, I think more likely than not, that Denethor was full of hatred because, after all, Sauron had manipulated him. He was kindof like Saruman and couldnt be helped from doing some evil.

</p>

[The Watcher in the Water]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Denethor vs. Aragorn

Hey All... I am new here and thought i might add my two cents worth...

I belive that Denethor would not have agreed to the rule of aragorn. There are two points on which i base this opinion - the first being that Denethor was already undoubtedly influenced by the shadow and as such became a person that could be viwed as slightly 'evil' or perhaps just slightly insane and the second is that his hubris would not allow him to bend to another...

well that wasnt great for a first posting but i'll work on it <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">


</p>

[Lotrelf]

Denether, from the start saw all the good people as a threat to his "crown" that by law was not his. His death was a tragedy. But his life wouldn't have been better, for him and for others.

[Belegorn]

I get the feeling Denethor would not have surrendered it. He felt only someone of the Line of Anarion should hold the scepter, not Isildur.

"I am a Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." [RotK, ch. 7, p. 142]

He really echoed a view that seems to have withered among other nobles of his time as his son and kinsmen of Dol Amroth were for Aragorn.

[Belegorn]

I should mention that like I said Denethor's view was one that was held a long time since just before the North Kingdom fractured. The council of Gondor told Arvedui, the King of the North, "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only;" [RotK, Appendix A] This is imo the reason why Denethor would not see Aragorn as a rightful heir, or at least he'd use this as a reason.

[cellurdur]

Denethor would not have surrendered the crown and there probably would have been a civil war. Aragorn with the support of Dol Amroth, Eomer and probably Faramir would have been victorious, but there would have been a terrible cost to Gondor.

[Lotrelf]

Denethor would not have surrendered the crown and there probably would have been a civil war. Aragorn with the support of Dol Amroth, Eomer and probably Faramir would have been victorious, but there would have been a terrible cost to Gondor.

I'd guess Faramir would be on Aragorn's side. He was a good man and truely understood the importance of the King and his (and his father's) position in Gondor.

[Mithalwen]

I don't know that Denethor would have withheld the crown if Aragorn had the support of the nobles especially his heir and Imrahil. As soon as Denethor died they would cede authority anyway. I shuspect that the sensee of honour that meant the stewards did not claim kingship would have held in the end. However I suspect for Denethor hope and despair really were akin and he could no more cope with a victory forseen as defeat. I suspect he would have taken the same route out.

[Belegorn]

I agree. I think Denethor held to the decision the old council made, that only an heir of Meneldil/Anárion who met the criterion [male line of descent, nearly pure Númenórean bloodline] could claim the throne. However, at the same time it would seem to me that many of the other nobles would see it differently and would accept an heir of Isildur. I doubt at this time there would have been Civil War since there were few Dúnedain left anyway in the South Kingdom.

[cellurdur]

I agree. I think Denethor held to the decision the old council made, that only an heir of Meneldil/Anárion who met the criterion [male line of descent, nearly pure Númenórean bloodline] could claim the throne. However, at the same time it would seem to me that many of the other nobles would see it differently and would accept an heir of Isildur. I doubt at this time there would have been Civil War since there were few Dúnedain left anyway in the South Kingdom.

The Council did not reply to the claim that Elendil was the first King of Gondor. They never rejected this, but merely said they had chosen to give the crown to another, due to the current circumstances. Denethor had grown proud and had a special dislike for Aragorn. I don't see him ever handing over the rulership of Gondor to his rival.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, if the debate from the days of Ondoher's death is any guide, the decision would not be the Steward's alone, but the Council's. We don't know who else was on it, but certainly Imrahil, a potent voice and of course an Aragorn supporter.

[Belegorn]

The Council did not reply to the claim that Elendil was the first King of Gondor. They never rejected this, but merely said they had chosen to give the crown to another, due to the current circumstances. Denethor had grown proud and had a special dislike for Aragorn. I don't see him ever handing over the rulership of Gondor to his rival.

Please read my posts above. The council was of the opinion that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor, and that for them only heirs of Meneldil/Anárion could have a claim to the throne. Arvedui, "claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur... The claim was rejected... 'the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm.'" [Appendix A] See also: Immortality and the sons of Elrond (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=689525#post689525)

I don't see Denethor handing the Kingship to Aragorn either as an heir of Isildur.

[cellurdur]

Please read my posts above. The council was of the opinion that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor, and that for them only heirs of Meneldil/Anárion could have a claim to the throne. Arvedui, "claimed the crown of Gondor, as the direct descendant of Isildur... The claim was rejected... 'the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm.'" [Appendix A] See also: Immortality and the sons of Elrond (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?p=689525#post689525)

I don't see Denethor handing the Kingship to Aragorn either as an heir of Isildur.

Read what I said again. They rejected his claim on the basis of being Isildur's heir. However, when Arvedui makes the claim as Elendil's heir the council have no reply.

'To this Gondor made no answer'.

The council had no way of refuting this claim, because Elendil was held in such a high regard they would not remove him from the succession. Consequently as long as Elendil was the first king of Gondor then any heir of Elendil would be in the succession.

After this there is never any dispute that Arvedui has a valid claim, but they choose Earnil, who himself admits it was also due to the needs of Gondor and not just a matter of law.

' He sent messages to Arvedui announcing that he had received the crown of Gondor, according to the laws and NEEDS of the South-Kingdom.

Denethor would not give up the throne, but the Council would be breaking the law by rejecting Aragorn's claim.

[Belegorn]

They made no reply because they already told him that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor. Whether he invoked Elendil or not, Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor according to them. I'm not saying that they were right, but this was their stance, which they held to. That was their argument. Again, I will tell you, his claim was not valid according to the South Kingdom because they believed "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

[cellurdur]

They made no reply because they already told him that Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor. Whether he invoked Elendil or not, Isildur's heirs had relinquished the realm of Gondor according to them. I'm not saying that they were right, but this was their stance, which they held to. That was their argument. Again, I will tell you, his claim was not valid according to the South Kingdom because they believed "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

No they had made a false claim, which they could not back up. Arvedui had made his initial claim on two points.
1. Being Isildur's heir.
2. Being the husband of Firiel.

'On the death of Ondoher and his sons, Arvedui of the North Kingdom claimed the crown of Gondor as the direct descendant of Isildur and the husband of Firiel the only surviving child of Ondoher.'

The council then reject his claim and give their reasons.

1. They claim that Firiel's claim is not accepted, because in Gondor like Arnor they practice Salic succession.
2. The crown of Gondor belongs to the sons of Meneldil, to whom Isildur relinquished the kingdom.

So falsely they rejected the claim of Isildur's heir based on him having apparently relinquished the kingship of Gondor.

Arvedui, however then goes over the top of this and claim the throne not as Isildur's heir, but Elendil's.

'We have heard that the name Elendil stands to this day at the Head of the Line of Kings of Gondor'

Arvedui here has caught them out on the political manoeuvrings they were trying to carry out. The Throne of Gondor cannot belong solely to the heirs of Anarion, because Gondor to that day still claimed Elendil as their first king. As long as Elendil was their first king then other descendants of Elendil and not just through Meneldil could claim the throne.

His second point about Firiel is also valid. Whilst they had at the time through tradition chosen only male heirs to be king, the Law of Gondor was still theoretically the same as the Law of Numenor. Consequently women did have the right to the throne and nothing had been altered.

[Belegorn]

It's like talking to a wall. I agree with Arvedui. I never said Gondor was right, I said that it was what they believed to be true and held to it. Which is why it did not matter that he brought up Elendil because they already told him the realm was relinquished to Meneldil. The fact remains, in Gondor his argument did not hold because they believed, "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

[Belegorn]

Well, if the debate from the days of Ondoher's death is any guide, the decision would not be the Steward's alone, but the Council's. We don't know who else was on it, but certainly Imrahil, a potent voice and of course an Aragorn supporter.

I would think Faramir might be on that Council as well, I've got to check. I'm not sure if the Steward's had their heirs on the the Council or not, certainly I'd think the Lord of Dol Amroth would be there, and maybe even non-Dunedain from other provinces who were the Lords thereof.

[cellurdur]

It's like talking to a wall. I agree with Arvedui. I never said Gondor was right, I said that it was what they believed to be true and held to it. Which is why it did not matter that he brought up Elendil because they already told him the realm was relinquished to Meneldil. The fact remains, in Gondor his argument did not hold because they believed, "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm".

Read what actually happens. They don't reject Arvedui's second argument, but they just choose someone else.

You understand that as long as they have Elendil as the first king of Gondor then they cannot say it was relinquished to just to Meneldil's heirs. They know this and that's why they have no come back.

That's why Aragorn's claim is based on being the heir of Elendil.

'Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?'

'Already you have raised the banner of the Kings and displayed the banner of Elendil's House.'

There is a subtle difference and it is something the Council could never argue against.

[Belegorn]

Read what actually happens. They don't reject Arvedui's second argument, but they just choose someone else.

You understand that as long as they have Elendil as the first king of Gondor then they cannot say it was relinquished to just to Meneldil's heirs. They know this and that's why they have no come back.

That's why Aragorn's claim is based on being the heir of Elendil.

'Do you wish for the House of Elendil to return to the Land of Gondor?'

'Already you have raised the banner of the Kings and displayed the banner of Elendil's House.'

There is a subtle difference and it is something the Council could never argue against.

Elendil's two sons are Isildur and Anárion. Isildur is the elder line. They are of the opinion, in Gondor, that the elder line gave up the South Kingdom "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm". If Isildur is the rightful King but relinquishes the royalty of Gondor, then to the nobles of Gondor, it falls on Anárion and his descendants in the South. Certainly they are not rejecting Elendil because in either case they are still choosing a direct descendent in the paternal line from Elendil, in this case from Anárion since they think the other line [Isildur's] "RELINQUISHED this realm". They gave no answer because they were not hearing him. They already gave him their reasons why he could not be King and he could invoke Elendil all he wanted, because to them, the rule had been relinquished to the descendants of Elendil's second son.

In note #10 to The Disaster of the Gladden Fields:

"Meneldil was the nephew of Isildur, son of Isildur's younger brother Anárion, slain in the siege of Barad-dûr. Isildur had established Meneldil as King of Gondor. He was a man of courtesy, but farseeing, and he did not reveal his thoughts. He was in fact well-pleased by the departure of Isildur and his sons, and hoped that affairs in the North would keep them long occupied."

[Formendacil]

Elendil's two sons are Isildur and Anárion. Isildur is the elder line. They are of the opinion, in Gondor, that the elder line gave up the South Kingdom "the crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur RELINQUISHED this realm". If Isildur is the rightful King but relinquishes the royalty of Gondor, then to the nobles of Gondor, it falls on Anárion and his descendants in the South. Certainly they are not rejecting Elendil because in either case they are still choosing a direct descendent in the paternal line from Elendil, in this case from Anárion since they think the other line [Isildur's] "RELINQUISHED this realm". They gave no answer because they were not hearing him. They already gave him their reasons why he could not be King and he could invoke Elendil all he wanted, because to them, the rule had been relinquished to the descendants of Elendil's second son.

Which was well and good while other male-line descendents of Anárion still existed, namely Eärnil and his son Eärnur. But who is the next-in-line after them when, as the case happened, their line failed?

This is where the distinction between descendents of Elendil and descendents of Isildur becomes relevant--and, if I may interpolate, what cellurdur has been saying: that even if the Heirs of Isildur as the Heirs of Isildur were held to have relinquished the realm, they were still the next-in-line after all the male-line descendents of Anárion, because Isildur was Anárion's brother (which is but another way of saying he was Elendil's son).

In other words, Pelendur's council could make the claim in Arvedui's day that the claims of Isildur's line were irrelevant as long as male-line descendents of Anárion persisted, which they did at that time. Even with this precedent established, however, they did not address--nor, it seems, did they wish to address--the question of what would happen if Anárion's line became extinct, as happened two generations later. Regardless of Isildur's "abdication," the fact remains that both Isildur and Anárion were reckoned Kings of Gondor under Elendil and in virtue of being Elendil's son.

One might even say that the "dual kingship" of Isildur's day came to an end when he went north and did not leave one of his sons as co-king with Meneldil--but, to simplify things, let us imagine that Meneldil had died with no sons: who would have been the next King of Gondor? The "other claim" of having an heir of Isildur would still be null and void, but by virtue of Meneldil having no sons, his heir in this case would be his nephew, thus merging the crown back into the line of Isildur.

This is the distinction between "Heir of Isildur" and "Heir of Elendil." It is easy enough to believe that Denethor would not have accepted it, but it remains the basis of the claim Aragorn DID make, one that, given what happened, Faramir and his council did de facto accept.

[cellurdur]

Which was well and good while other male-line descendents of Anárion still existed, namely Eärnil and his son Eärnur. But who is the next-in-line after them when, as the case happened, their line failed?

This is where the distinction between descendents of Elendil and descendents of Isildur becomes relevant--and, if I may interpolate, what cellurdur has been saying: that even if the Heirs of Isildur as the Heirs of Isildur were held to have relinquished the realm, they were still the next-in-line after all the male-line descendents of Anárion, because Isildur was Anárion's brother (which is but another way of saying he was Elendil's son).

In other words, Pelendur's council could make the claim in Arvedui's day that the claims of Isildur's line were irrelevant as long as male-line descendents of Anárion persisted, which they did at that time. Even with this precedent established, however, they did not address--nor, it seems, did they wish to address--the question of what would happen if Anárion's line became extinct, as happened two generations later. Regardless of Isildur's "abdication," the fact remains that both Isildur and Anárion were reckoned Kings of Gondor under Elendil and in virtue of being Elendil's son.

One might even say that the "dual kingship" of Isildur's day came to an end when he went north and did not leave one of his sons as co-king with Meneldil--but, to simplify things, let us imagine that Meneldil had died with no sons: who would have been the next King of Gondor? The "other claim" of having an heir of Isildur would still be null and void, but by virtue of Meneldil having no sons, his heir in this case would be his nephew, thus merging the crown back into the line of Isildur.

This is the distinction between "Heir of Isildur" and "Heir of Elendil." It is easy enough to believe that Denethor would not have accepted it, but it remains the basis of the claim Aragorn DID make, one that, given what happened, Faramir and his council did de facto accept.
Thanks for putting forward the idea much better than I did.

[Belegorn]

Which was well and good while other male-line descendents of Anárion still existed, namely Eärnil and his son Eärnur. But who is the next-in-line after them when, as the case happened, their line failed?

That is a problem, also the one they made for themselves anyway in twisting the way things should have been to what they should not have been. The Kingdoms should have been united, the Dúnedain would be strong and not diminished. In-fighting in both kingdoms, especially in the North, crippled them. The Witch-king took advantage of them in the North, and constant assaults in the South as they waned resulted in loss of Dúnedain and of territory.

It makes sense from the point of greed that the ones in line who could not hold the throne found a way to get it while those who should have it are still alive. In the end, some Dúnedain still held fast to the belief that it did not matter, even if the line of the one died while the other was still alive, only the line of Meneldil would be accepted. As we see with Denethor who though knowing of the preservation of the one line and the extinction of the other, still held onto the rule.

"I am a Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity." [RotK, ch. 7, p. 142]

Whether both lines were still intact the rule should not have been there, that the one line had renounced the crown of the South Kingdom, but as it was alas, it was. :) Denethor also seems to have channeled Meneldur in his holding onto the belief that extinct line or not with the other intact, it won't matter, only Meneldur's descendants will be allowed to hold the crown.

[Belegorn]

Thanks for putting forward the idea much better than I did.

I'm not sure he's actually echoing you. He claimed to be interpolating so that in itself would be a marker that he was not. You two are actually not saying the same thing.

[cellurdur]

I'm not sure he's actually echoing you. He claimed to be interpolating so that in itself would be a marker that he was not. You two are actually not saying the same thing.

Please explain to me the difference, because I cannot see what it is?

[Sarumian]

I think we all have got the point and agreed with it. Therefore an argument on this tiny logical differences should be left over for personal messages. :Merisu:

On the matter. First of all, I cannot believe Aragorn would have waged a civil war. No way. In that case he, not Boromir, would've claimed the Ring. Secondly, he wouldn't necessary have made any claim right after the siege of Gondor to Denethor's utter surprise. Captains of the West could have marched on the Gates of Morannon even without Denethor's support: they did not need huge numbers.

Upon return to Gondor, Aragorn would have had an overwhelming support of the population and of the ruling elite. Denethor would have been unable to deny that Aragorn had made the thing he (Denethor) himself had failed to achieve.

Therefore, in the situation when Aragorn's lordship and dignity was evident, the formalities could have been settled in the way that other respected Downers have already demonstrated. Think, that the Council would have voted unanimously, and Denethor would have abstained but would have passed the sceptre either to Aragorn or to his own sun for further decision. I believe that in that case Aragorn would have created him a Prince of Ithilien, while Faramir would have become a new Stewart and Denethor's heir. Such a honour could have pleased the old man and probably would have kept him from committing suicide.

I also believe, Denethor would not have made any treachery - he was above such things.

God, such much of the third conditional! Hope, I did it correct :D

[Morthoron]

Eärnil II was elected king of Gondor because of his generalship, his control of the Gondorion army, his lineage, and, most importantly, the lack of a competitor with an army in the area. Arvedui could make counterclaims until he was blue in the face, but he was way up north in Arnor, powerless to stop Eärnil, and lacking any clout with the council.

The same can be said of Aragorn. If Denethor survived, there would be little he could do. Aragorn had control of the army, was victorious against Sauron, had a claim for the throne better than anyone in a millenium, and was highly respected by both Prince Imrahil and Faramir; whereas, Denethor, had he survived, could be charged with dereliction of duty and perhaps attempted murder and treason. From a cynical standpoint (and not at all in Aragorn's character), all that had to be done was to reveal that Aragorn was the great Thorongil returned, and Denethor would have been sent into retirement somewhere unpleasant, like in a hut overlooking a slag pit in the Morgul Vale.;)

[Belegorn]

I cannot see what it is?

I know.

I cannot believe Aragorn would have waged a civil war

I agree. It would seem totally out of place in this context anyway even with the history between Aragorn and Denethor, I do not think it was so bad as to result in a Civil War. Denethor was passionate but he did care about Gondor.

[Alfirin]

The same can be said of Aragorn. If Denethor survived, there would be little he could do. Aragorn had control of the army, was victorious against Sauron, had a claim for the throne better than anyone in a millenium, and was highly respected by both Prince Imrahil and Faramir; whereas, Denethor, had he survived, could be charged with dereliction of duty and perhaps attempted murder and treason. From a cynical standpoint (and not at all in Aragorn's character), all that had to be done was to reveal that Aragorn was the great Thorongil returned, and Denethor would have been sent into retirement somewhere unpleasant, like in a hut overlooking a slag pit in the Morgul Vale.;)

Or combine both this and the other concept; make Denethor Lord of the now conquered Mordor lands, and task HIM with putting them back into shape on a sort of "You sort of helped to cause all this, now you fix it!" mentality. It probably isn't all that risky. However much Denethor hates Aragorn, he hated Modor even more, so concepts like him trying to become the new dark lord himself seems remote. Aragorn could even let him keep the Anor stone(he has the Orthanc stone, so he really doesn't need to keep two so close together) so that he can keep an eye on him. Let Denethor keep those troops that are loyal to him (presumably his personal guard) and see how he does.

[Sarumian]

Or combine both this and the other concept; make Denethor Lord of the now conquered Mordor lands, and task HIM with putting them back into shape on a sort of "You sort of helped to cause all this, now you fix it!" mentality. It probably isn't all that risky. However much Denethor hates Aragorn, he hated Modor even more, so concepts like him trying to become the new dark lord himself seems remote. Aragorn could even let him keep the Anor stone(he has the Orthanc stone, so he really doesn't need to keep two so close together) so that he can keep an eye on him. Let Denethor keep those troops that are loyal to him (presumably his personal guard) and see how he does.

Well, if Aragorn had really wanted Denethor to commit suicide, he would have done something like this. :p

Seriously, Denethor (in the book) does not deserve such accusations. He struggled to do his best, he fully prepared city to the fight. It was neither in his, nor in any other man's or elf's capacity to win the struggle.

And, in the end, he would have been too much exhausted to carry out a truly challenging duty. But he, in my opinion, deserved a nice retirement.

[cellurdur]

Aragorn's not going to force the people or the council of Gondor to accept him as king, but if the majority do then he is not going to turn it down, because Denethor dissents. If the majority of the nobles and people back Aragorn,and Dentheor tried to cause friction; I believe Aragorn would be fully prepared to put down Denethor and those that he roused to fight for him.

[Faramir Jones]

Tolkien looked at what might have happened if Denethor hadn't committed suicide, in an early draft of LotR:

By evening of 15th [in pencil > 14] in a bloodred sun victory is complete. All enemy is driven into or back over Anduin. Aragorn sets up his pavilion and standard outside gate, but will not enter city, yet. Denethor comes down to greet the victors. Théoden dies. He bids farewell to Gandalf, Aragorn, Éomer and Merry. Théoden and Éowyn laid for a time in the royal tombs.

Words of Aragorn and Denethor. Denethor will not yield Stewardship, yet: not until war is won or lost and all is made clear. He is cold and suspicious and ? mock-courteous. Aragorn grave and silent. But Denethor says that belike the Stewardship will run out anyway, since he seems like to lose both his sons. Faramir is sick of his wounds. If he dies then Gondor can take what new lord it likes. Aragorn says that he will not be 'taken', he will take, but asks to see Faramir. Faramir is brought out and Aragorn tends him all that night, and love springs between them. (History of Middle-earth: VIII. The War of the Ring, p. 360) (My emphasis)

Unlike Faramir, Denethor would have insisted on all the legal forms being followed, as well as waiting to see how the war ends. If we assume that the Ring is destroyed and the war won, Aragorn would then formally petition Denethor for a meeting of the Council of Gondor, in order to present his claim to the kingship.

In terms of who was on the Council, I agree with what Belegorn said earlier:

I would think Faramir might be on that Council as well, I've got to check. I'm not sure if the Steward's had their heirs on the the Council or not, certainly I'd think the Lord of Dol Amroth would be there, and maybe even non-Dunedain from other provinces who were the Lords thereof.

Certainly, the 'Council of the Sceptre' the Council of Númenor, had the King's Heir (once proclaimed) as a member, in order to gain experience of ruling. I'm taking it that the Kings of Gondor made their heirs members of the Council of Gondor in a similar manner, and that the Ruling Stewards did this with their heirs. For example, the 'Tradition of Isildur', carried on by the kings, was continued by the stewards.

As well as Faramir, certainly the Prince of Dol Amroth would also be a member, and the relevant Lords who survived the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, or the acknowledged heirs of those who did not.

Let us assume that the Council, after hearing Aragorn make his case, unanimously vote in favour of recognising his claim to the kingship. It's then up to Denethor to decide whether he agrees with them.

If he refuses, then there is the issue of whether he would have any real support, risking a civil war. My opinion is that he would have no support; so instead of a civil war, Gondorians would simply refuse to obey his orders. Imrahil, even before Aragorn was king, said that he accepted him as his liege lord; and this would be even more so after he formally presented his legitimate claim.

I believe that Denethor, whether after the vote, or after finding that no one would obey him, would then have to accept Aragorn's claim. He could avoid doing so formally by resigning the stewardship in favour of Faramir, who would then formally acknowledge Aragorn's claim. He would then avoid being the steward of an 'upstart', assuming that he still felt that way. ;)

If he is still steward, then the new king Elessar would certainly confirm him and his heirs in the possession of that office. If he decides to continue in that office, then I suggest that his relationship with his new king would be 'correct', but not intimate. Both of them would certainly be at odds in terms of how the peoples released from Sauron's rule should be treated, Denethor being in favour of a more vindictive policy. Relations with Faramir will be strained for that reason.

Despite all this, I'm sure that Elessar would offer great rewards to Denethor, including the title of Prince. If the latter felt that the new king was an 'upstart' he would refuse any rewards. On the other hand, he might accept them on behalf of his ancestors and of his son. Perhaps he asks that they be given to Faramir.

On a personal note, I'm assuming (romantic that I am!) that Faramir and Éowyn still fall in love and marry. Denethor would, I'm very sure, approve of the match, she being a worthy consort, both in her background and in her own abilities, for his son. Perhaps relations with Faramir improve with the birth of grandchildren. I can certainly see him shocking people by being the doting grandfather! Perhaps a grandchild later ends up defending his behaviour...:)

What do people think? :smokin:

[Belegorn]

I think you're a romantic. :)

I agree with you although I do think Denethor would do what is best for Gondor in any situation, his losing his mind aside.

"to him is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good of Gondor; & the rule of Gondor, my lord, is mine and no other man's, unless the king should come again." [RotK, bk. 5 ch.1, p. 32]

I'm not quite sure how Denethor would feel about his son marrying a Rohirrim, although they are quite recently descended from nobles in Dol Amroth, and Éowyn's uncle did live in Gondor for a bit. I do think Denethor was a bit more old school and would not be quite taken with his son marrying someone not of high Númenórean descent. It seems he laments the decline of the High Men on Faramir's apparent deathbed, "my line too is ending, even the House of the Stewards has failed. Mean folk shall rule the last remnants of the Kings of Men." [RotK, bk. 5, ch. 4, p. 107]

Such members of the Council may include those who rode to Gondor;

"Forlong the Fat, the Lord of Lossarnach... a man of wide shoulders and huge girth, but old and grey-beareded, yet mail-clad and black-helmed and bearing a long heavy spear. Behing him marched proudly a dusty line of men... shorter and somewhat swarthier than any men that Pippen had yet seen in Gondor... men of Ringló Vale behind the son of their lord, Dervorin striding on foot... from the uplands of Morthond, the great Blackroot Vale, tall Duinhir with his sons, Duilin and Derufin, and five hundred bowmen. From the Anfalas, the Longstrand far away... scantily equipped save for the household of Golasgil their Lord... Hirluin the Fair of the Green Hills from Pinnath Gelin... last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord... behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired" [RotK, Bk. 5, ch1., p. 46]

Cirion did have his son with him along with the Prince of Dol Amroth and 2 Council members when he spoke with Eorl. I too was thinking of Númenor's council when I mentioned Faramir possibly being on Gondor's. In note #23 of Aldarion and Erendis it's said, "The Council was composed of members from each of the divisions of Númenor; but the King's heir when proclaimed was also a member, so that he might learn of the government of the land,".