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Shark
04-19-2001, 07:41 AM
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As some might remember, we had the topic in the chat some time ago whether Ents or Elves were older.

Some arguments are given in the books for eihter opinion, but few hard facts.

Ents are generally seen as the oldest when they are dealt with in LOTR (if I remember correctly, even Galadriel calls Fangorn 'Eldest'); and some quotes by the Ent himself hint on that, too.

On the other hand, the creation myth seems to imply that the Ents were created as guardians of the trees because of the probable damage the free peoples might do to the woods. Was this done preemptively, ahving the Music in mind, or as a prompt reaction to the first Elves (and maybe Dawrves)?

A speculative blending of both theories is that Ents existed physically before the Elves, but only as inanimate trees (which are neverhtheless, of course, alive). They were later 'awakened' to act after the awaking of the Children.

Some good, buit still vague evidence is given by Treebeard himself:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Learn now the lore of living creatures!
First name the four, the free peoples:
Eldest of all, the elf-children;
Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses;
Ent the earthborn, old as mountains;
Man the mortal, master of horses;<hr></blockquote>

The elves are eldest, but still the Ents are as old as the mountains, which the elves of course aren't?

I also wonder whether we were, and I still am, missing the one obvious and clear statement to solve this?

</p>

Pengolodh
04-19-2001, 07:46 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

the First line of Appendix F is quite specific on this, and mentions the Ents to be the eldest of the races of Middle-earth <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

This somewhat contradicts the verse sung by Treebeard, but is in tone with the comment that Treebeard is the eldest living being in M-e.

Cheers

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

Shark
04-19-2001, 08:04 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hungry Ghoul
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

'The most ancient people surviving in the Third Age'...

Specific indeed, although I can still imagine one could counter this. Are the High-elves and oldest elves in Middle-Earth of the Third Age still a 'people'? Crdan is only one person who awoke at Cuivienen, not a people.

Fangorn as the 'eldest living being' seems to support my strange theory above, that they lived before the elves, but not as Ents.

Anyway this line still lets me think of more questions.
Surviving in the Third Age? <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)">

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000003>Sharku</A> at: 4/19/01 10:05:30 am

Pengolodh
04-19-2001, 08:24 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

In reply:

&quot;Specific indeed, although I can still imagine one could counter this. Are the High-elves and oldest elves in Middle-Earth of the Third Age still a 'people'? Crdan is only one person who awoke at Cuivienen, not a people.&quot;

Yes, most certainly and undoubtedly, the Elves are still a people. They would cease to be a people if they had left entirely. Also, your statement implies that all High Elves would have to be born in Cuivienen. This is of course not so, since they could have been born in AMan as well <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">
Note that there were still Noldor in Lorien and Rivendell and Mithlond in the Third Age.

Crdan is only one person who awoke at Cuivienen, not a people.&quot;

Cirdan possiblyawoke at Cuivienen, not certainly. What is certain is that he is not one of the first elves, the Unbegotten.

Surviving is I believe not of added value in this case. It could have said, who were the eldest people still alive and the answer would still have been the Ents, as we learn in appendix F.

Cheers


"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

Orald
04-19-2001, 10:49 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

Just wanted to say that it isn't certain that he wasn't one of the firs elves. There is no evidence on Cirdan being one of the first one way or another. Just because there is no mention of a wife, doens't mean that he didn't have one. Or perhaps she died very early.

I think I see what you mean Sharku. You are saying that even though Cirdan is extremely old, the people that he lives with are not as old as him, and there-by being a younger people than Cirdan himself. Am I close?

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into E, and evil be good to have been.</p>

Glorfindel
04-19-2001, 10:59 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

i think ents were conscious first because in the times before the awakening for the elves. Morgoth, then Melker, was tearing up the country side. Like raising the Misty Mountains to hinder the ridings of Orome. So this is just a theory, but I bet Yavanna created ents to somehow protect the woods from the foul creatures of Melker. Making the ents conscious first, but not necessarily older.

</p>

Shark
04-19-2001, 11:08 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

I see no point why I should play the devil's advocate here <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">
But just to let my points not stand as unprecise as they were:

I didn't say all High-Elves awoke at Cuivienen. But those who didn't were not useful to my argumentation anyway <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> , and I did not mean those many others.
What I doubted was whether the number of eldest Cuivienen elves, who could theoratically be older than Fangorn in my theory, was still big enough to count as a people.
And as far as I remember all sources I have, Crdan was the eldest elf in ME in 3018 TA.

This does not mean I question the content of Appendix F. I was just trying to maintain the thread a bit.

Dragons sailing on the breeze, / Black and gleaming beam / The hand upon the steering-board / has set my spirit free / Lost no more to time and place for / I have seen the land / I have heard the valkyrie's song / and I've touched dhinn's hand.</p>

HerenIstarion
04-19-2001, 11:16 AM
Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1047
Re: The oldest people of ME?

There may be two views all the way - elves are &quot;elder of children&quot;, Eruhini, and the ents elder people, but not children of Eru. And, going back to Aule-Yavanna converse about dwarvish need of wood, Yavanna says something like (I can't give you a quote, owning no books for a while) - &quot;when they come, they will find the forest guarded&quot;, which may imply that ents were before dwarves, but it still leaves the question of elven-entish competition open. Still, as Cirdan's oringins are not certain, and Galadriel was born in Aman, Fangorn may well have been eldest talking creature personally, and that is the reason Galadriel of addressing him so

*edit* elder at least in ME, if the elves appeared before ents

On the other hand, the appearence of ents before elves breaks no mithological low, for Elves are Eruhini, first of the children, and therefore, for example, the wakening of dwarves is not allowed, though they are accepted by Eru. But, having Ents (vaguely, trees inhabited by the spirits, but spirits different from those of &quot;children&quot;) before any of the children makes no problem.
So, the theory may be formulated like this - ents were in being before elfes, but became ppl only after elves, for Fangorn himself states something like &quot;they woke us up and thought us the language&quot;


Edited by: HerenIstarion at: 4/19/01 1:27:37 pm

Orald
04-19-2001, 11:49 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

I am just going to say this to be an idiot. But The first elves, the &quot;unbegotten&quot; or whatever where as old as Ea itself, as were the fathers of men that first awoke in hildorean. All of them are technically older than Ents and Dwarves. They just weren't consious.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into E, and evil be good to have been.</p>

Meneldil
04-19-2001, 03:23 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> us cw Sharku:
What I doubted was whether the number of eldest Cuivienen elves, who could theoratically be older than Fangorn in my theory, was still big enough to count as a people. <hr></blockquote>

If, indeed, any were still alive in the Third Age - I don't know of any Elf referred to in the Sil. or the LoTR whom we can infer was &quot;created, not begotten&quot;.

However, this does not take away from the fact that the Elven race as a whole still constituted a &quot;people&quot;. If you wanted to see which was the oldest existing race, therefore, you'd still have to look at the antiquity of the Elven race, even if every original Elf was in Mandos. It's a different issue if you're looking to determine who the oldest living being was.

</p>

Pengolodh
04-20-2001, 02:46 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

To Durelen

you said:

Just wanted to say that it isn't certain that he wasn't one of the firs elves. There is no evidence on Cirdan being one of the first one way or another. Just because there is no mention of a wife, doens't mean that he didn't have one. Or perhaps she died very early.

Cirdan was probably not one of the unbegotten because of this reason. Cirdan was said to be of &quot; Of the Kin of Elwe. There is no mention whatsoever of him being Elwe's father, or for him being at all older. Since Thingol was the chief of the Teleri, along with his brother Olwe, it is at the very least much more plausible that he was younger, or for instance, a cousin. He was said to have silver hair, like the kin of Elwe, not that Elwe had the hair &quot;of Cirdan's kin&quot; (which would indicate an older Cirdan), for instance. This all leads me to believe that although he may have awoken at Cuivienen, he was certainly not one of the unbegotten.


also:

But The first elves, the &quot;unbegotten&quot; or whatever where as old as Ea itself, as were the fathers of men that first awoke in hildorean.

May I inform where you read that all Elves at Cuivienen existed immediately after the creation of Ea (or Arda for that matter)? I am very curious to your source since I have nowhere read that the Elves at the Water of Awakening immediately existed along with the entering of the Ainur into Ea.

Cheers


"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

Shark
04-20-2001, 07:29 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

I found another 'clue'.
Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna; Manwe quotes this as Eru's words:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> When the children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar...<hr></blockquote>

and...
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.<hr></blockquote>

I. Quote one conveys simultanity, or the second event after the first.
II. Eru wanted to lighten Yavanna's sorrows for the rooted beings. Why did he not mention that the shepherds of the trees would awake first of all, then?

edit
'Spirits summoned from afar' only adds to my theory, I may say, of post-Eruhinian (what a nice word <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> ) animation of trees.

Dragons sailing on the breeze, / Black and gleaming beam / The hand upon the steering-board / has set my spirit free / Lost no more to time and place for / I have seen the land / I have heard the valkyrie's song / and I've touched dhinn's hand.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000003>Sharku</A> at: 4/20/01 9:31:01 am

Orald
04-20-2001, 08:30 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

No source, it just seems like common sense to me. If Ilvatar created Ea and Elves and Men, then wouldn't he do it all at once? The only reason I can see Ilvatar not creating them from the beginning would be to protect them from Melkor, but Ilvatar being omniscient then he would know where to place them and Melkor would not touch them.

Just because Crdan is of the same kin as Elw does not imply that he was younger than Elw, more probable yes, but again, there isn't any clear evidence that he is younger.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into E, and evil be good to have been.</p>

Pengolodh
04-20-2001, 10:14 AM
<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

I find that very hard to believe Durelen, so it must be something else than just common sense. I do not think that the Elven bodies were placed at the Water of Awakening since the earliest beginnings of Ea, in fact it seems most unlikely. The Elves would be lying there and awake only 5 (at the very least three)Ages or so later. Taking into consideration that an age last roughly 3,000 years, then that does present some problems lol ( the Elves would have been there for over 10,000 years before they awoke!!. The bodies would have rotten I believe.

As for Cirdan, as you say, it is more probable that he was younger than Elwe. I did not present it as a fact, but as a line of reasoning <img src=smile.gif ALT=":)">

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

Orald
04-20-2001, 11:33 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

I think the awakening falls under special circumstances. I mean, they weren't just 'sleeping' although that is one of the best terms to describe it, I would choose inanimate. The fea of the elves is what seems to cause the elves to show signs of aging, if the fea is not active, then it can't really have any affect on the hroa. Make sense?

What would be odd would be for Ilvatar to come down into Ea after the Valar are already there and make the elves. It is just a little to fishy. Don't you think Manw know if Ilvatar started causing a commotion?

Anyway, that is what I think. It just makes more sense to me. I wish I could explain it better <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":\">



Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into E, and evil be good to have been.</p>

Telchar
04-20-2001, 11:53 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> The oldest people of ME?

You all make exelent points! I have only a few comments. The Waters of Cuvien were on the shores of The Inland Sea of Helcar, which as I remember it were created in the turmoil of the destruction of the the pillar of Illuin. If the elves were already there, don't you think those earthquakes and eruptions would kill/make too much damage to the &quot;Sleeping&quot; at least not awoken, elves to survive?

Another thought is that we just don't know if Eru needed to enter E to create the elves, maybe he just created them out of his thought to exist in Arda at a giving time? just a thought - what do you think?

Cheers - he who forges weapons!


</p>

HerenIstarion
04-20-2001, 03:25 PM
Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1048


But The first elves, the &quot;unbegotten&quot; or whatever where as old as Ea itself, as were the fathers of men that first awoke in hildorean. All of them are technically older than Ents and Dwarves. They just weren't consious.

literally, the same may be said about dwarves, for 7 fathers were made to sleep till the awakening of children, and of ents too, for they were to awake to guard the forests after the coming of children, so both existed technically as well.
what for the question of preservation of not inhabited (=not awakenad) bodies, it is quite a hard one. Easier a bit with dwarves and ents, for Dwarves were commonly beleived in ME to come out of the stone, ents may have been trees as trees at first, things in themselves, and only after incarnation of children inhabited by the spirits from afar;, but the things is much more coplex with elves and men, In fact, I know of no evidence on the subject, but all is in the power of Eru, so if the design of the awakaning was to have 'sleeping' bodies in existence from the before the actual awakening, I don't think that any turmoils and ruins of pillars etc could harm them or make any problem for their preservation.

Meneldil
04-21-2001, 03:17 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> The oldest people of ME?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> us cw Telchar:
don't you think those earthquakes and eruptions would kill/make too much damage to the &quot;Sleeping&quot; at least not awoken, elves to survive?<hr></blockquote>
Well, Eru *does* tell Manwe that he could have protected the Elves through the wars with Morgoth even after they awoke, and that the Valar should have had more estel. Ergo, I'd think that the tumults wouldn't necessarily have destroyed the sleepers. Also, Gilfanon's Tale in BoLT seems to indicate that Men were around sleeping for a while before they awoke.

</p>

Orald
04-22-2001, 06:26 PM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

Meneldil speaks much truth, heheh. The Valar should have put trust in Eru, as should some of you. He knows all, he could have placed them in just the perfect place where he knew nothing would hurt them. I think H-I was pointing to this, but the dwarves were put to sleep for an extremely long time, longer than dwarves that are awake and about tend to live. Same for elves and humans possibly

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into E, and evil be good to have been.</p>

Pengolodh
04-23-2001, 06:39 AM
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The oldest people of ME?

All the speculation and theorizing aside (fun as it is <img src=wink.gif ALT=";)"> ), there is no reason to assume that they were there from the very first beginnings of the world (which again, I seriously doubt), but there is also no real reason to assume that they didn't, I have to admit that.

So, we may actually have to agree to disagree.

Meneldil, una questiona, where exactly does Iluvatar say these words to Manwe, about having them kept safe etc.?



"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000097>Pengolodh</A> at: 4/23/01 8:40:37 am

Nevfeniel
03-30-2002, 12:33 PM
I think that JRR Tolkien made an error and no one noticed it until now.

HerenIstarion
11-19-2004, 10:38 AM
It's been a while.

Beisides, Chapter by Chapter (http://69.51.5.41/forumdisplay.php?f=41) discussion is just past Lorien, where stories of Fangorn were labelled 'old wives tales'. What d'ya think?

Bthberry
06-27-2005, 08:00 PM
Could the ents dance on the edge of an axe? ;) :D :cool: